 walking a load and I was on mute. Welcome, those are joining. So we still got people coming in and we just as we're waiting, invitation to have your camera on. The one thing is that this is recorded. So if you're not comfortable, you can have it off, but it's really great to see people's faces. The question, I'll put it back in the chat for, I mean, maybe I'll post it, maybe one or two more times. Just to hear where you're joining from and what made you want to attend this webinar. So I'll give it one or two more minutes. We're at 45 people. So we've got Brussels, London. Sorry, Brussels, London. We've got some interesting mix of people. So from really London, of course, who are organizing this second economy week and a MacArthur Foundation based in Brussels. We've got Talas Perth, we've got consultants in Perth, Australia. So this really is a global event. Belfast, Northern Ireland from Invest. Amsterdam from Deloitte in the Netherlands. Another person from Amsterdam closing the loop. So yeah, really, really great mix. So I think we've got to a probably pretty good number and we've not got so long. So that's probably a good time to kick it off. I will, in fact, I'll spot that myself. So yeah, keep the messages going and the chat is a really great function. I mean, we did this in basic MS teams because hopefully by now, I think it's one of the more familiar platforms but really great to be here. So I will just give a quick introduction. Firstly, just to repeat the messages. So we are recording this. The aim is to put this on YouTube. So yeah, just to note that as just so that we can share this before widely. I mentioned having cameras on is encouraged. If you feel comfortable to do so though, it's really great to see people's faces. We will have some time for questions as well. Feel free to put reflections in the chat. I think it really encourages debate and it gives us prompts. Then, yes, as you'll see, people are typing where they're coming from and what job they do. I think that's really nice just to get a vibe of the room. I think there's a good number of people coming joining us from the UK but also from Europe and indeed, as we've seen, all the way from Australia, I think we had some registrations in India and further afield. So I will just give a quick introduction myself. So let's get going. My name is Tama Chowdhury. So I work at the Cambridge Institute for Sustainability Leadership. So it's part of the University of Cambridge. I'm actually based in the Brussels office where we do a lot more on policy and advocacy. So I've worked here for two years and previously I worked in the UK government. So let's have a quick look at the agenda. So I will be the one facilitating this discussion. Firstly, we thought it would just be a great opportunity to open up on a little bit about policymaking in the EU, what is happening on circular economy. So my colleague, Christy, who's the Senior Research Project Manager for the Task Force will present that. And then we have two fabulous speakers from our businesses within this Task Force, which I'm mentioning in a moment. So we've got Anthony Abiletz, who's Director of Group Public Affairs and Sustainability at Rockwell Group. And Jürgen Hansen from North Cairo is the Corporate Social Responsibility Manager. We are in terms of just explaining who we are. We are a part of the University of Cambridge and what our role is particularly in this space is partnering with businesses and government to develop leadership and solutions for a sustainable economy. So looking at things like net zero, nature, societies, and that's our kind of wider remit. Now in the Brussels office, we have this thing called the CLG Europe, so Corporate Leaders Group Europe, which is bringing progressive businesses together to advocate on some of these issues. So particularly on EU policymaking, doing strategic communications to engage with the highest level of policy audiences. Our aim is to bring a cross-sectoral basis. So like today, we have different members of different sectors who tend to be at the sort of most progressive end. And we find that this is a really great group to show that across the whole sectors that there are people who really want to see and push the fore on the way that we approach sustainability. Now this is convened within this whole event is actually by the Materials and Products Task Force. So that's the Task Force for Climate, Nutrients, Circular Materials and Products. We launched this at COP in Glasgow in 2021, particularly focusing on these issues around industrial decarbonization. And what we found was that really focusing on circularity, which is a growing topic indeed for this week in circular economy week London, and also more widely afield. It's a really important thing that has been growing in the policymaking space, particularly in the EU. And we're seeing more policies that are wider spanning and more visionary. Even if maybe we want that a bit faster, it is a growing area of interest. And so just to give a very quick message of, why did we create this event? I mean, firstly, I think what we're seeing is a growing interest in circular economy. And so the aim of this event was really just to open up what is happening a little bit further afield. Of course, the blessing of doing this online is those of us based in Brussels can kind of share our experiences out here, and we've got businesses from different parts of Europe. And it's also to maybe introduce some of the, what's going on in the EU. And I think even if from our perspective, things could be going faster perhaps, the EU is actually doing a lot of interesting work here. And so for countries such as United Kingdom or wherever outside, I think it's a really interesting test case to see what are these policies and what is the approach and what can we learn from that? Then of course, by bringing these businesses and being able to hear from Anthony and Jorgen, we can see why this is actually also a thing that is important for businesses. I think businesses can sometimes get characterized as dragging feet on sustainability. And I think that view does prevail sometimes, but it's not really true. There are many businesses and we'll hear from them actually showing that seeing the importance of sustainability, seeing the opportunities and seeing why it's a really important thing. So that's my wider sort of opening set piece, just to reiterate for those that have just joined, we are recording this, really encourage to put video on. Feel free to share where you're coming from in the chat and what brought you here. And as we go along, it'll be great to get some questions and we can take it either from the chat or from video. But yeah, I won't spend too much longer because there are other speakers yet to come. So I will now move to, oh sorry, just to quickly introduce the materials and products task force that I mentioned. So these are current members, a cross section of different businesses from cement to chemicals to digital. So just to give an idea of who's in the task force. So first session will just be a little bit about the policy brief overview. And so for this, I'll pass to my colleague, Christina. So over to you. Great. Thank you so much, Tommy. It's really, really great to be here and hello everyone. So in the next, if we can move to the next slide, seeing the first couple of minutes of this webinar, the aim is to provide you with an overview of the European policy framework for circular economy. Also showcasing it through some of the key files that are being negotiated at the moment. And then I will finish the presentation with how we as a task force are engaging with these policy developments. So to start the overview of how the European policy framework for circular economy looks like, I would start with the European Green Deal. So the European Green Deal is one of the six headline ambitions under the current European Commission for the five year period of 2019 until 2024. So until next year. And really the key aim of the Green Deal is to transform the EU into a competitive, modern and resource efficient economy with having the focus on first, achieving climate neutrality by 2050. Then also ensuring that economic growth is decoupled from resource use and on just transition making sure that no person and no place is left behind. And in this framework of the European Green Deal, circular economy actually plays a really key role. As you can see also in this figure that I shared that mobilizing industry for clean and circular economy is one of the key ambitions under the European Green Deal. Which takes me to the next slides. So within, if we can move to the next slide, thank you. So within the European Green Deal, the so-called new circular economy action plan has been proposed. So it's been proposed in March 2020. And it's a really comprehensive plan that includes multiple legislative proposals towards how we can move faster and transition faster towards a circular economy in the EU. In terms of the focus areas of the circular economy action plan. So it really aims to ensure that sustainable products are the norm in the EU. And along that's a really important element is on empowering also consumers and public buyers. So there is really a key emphasis on enabling consumers to make sustainable choices. In terms of the sectorial focus of the circular economy action plan, it focuses on sectors that on the one hand use the most resources. And on the other hand, the sectors which have the highest potential for circularity. So these sectors to give a couple of examples, for instance, the ICT sector, packaging plastics, textiles, as well as construction and building materials. So just to give a flavor of what these sectors include. So another goal of the circular economy action plan is also to ensure that there is less waste and also again, linking to the just transition element mentioned earlier, making sure that circular economy, it really works for the people, regions and cities and looking more internationally how the EU can support and also lead global efforts on circular economy. So it's again, it's quite complex package with lots of legislative proposals. So if you move to the next slide to illustrate, I will share some of the key files that are really important on enhancing circular economy in the EU and also related to the circular economy action plan. So the first file I would briefly introduce is the eco design for sustainable products regulation. So as very closely linking to the goals we just discussed earlier, it aims to on the one hand reduce waste and on the other hand ensure that the products that are either sold in Europe or made in Europe are fit for a more circular resource efficient and climate natural economy. I think the really interesting parts of the so-called ESDR file is the proposal on the digital product passports. With the task force, we also had a publication on it last year again, showcasing the business perspective because the so-called digital product passports it can be a really interesting tool really providing information about the environmental sustainability of the product. Really closely linked to the ESDR and other interesting file and really important file that's being negotiated now is the file on substantiating green claims. So this is really tackling the pressing issue of greenwashing. And as you can also see on the slide, so there is a study that highlights from 2020 that's over 50% of the claims Examine Tavor vague and over 40% were not substantiated. So I think it really shows the severity of the issue. So this legislation, it aims to reduce greenwashing by requiring companies to substantiate environmental claims about the products. I brought some more examples so if we can move to the next slide. So as when I talked about the circular economic action then I mentioned that it's focusing also on specific sectors and packaging is one of them. So again, the packaging and packaging based regulation is a really key file which aims to prevent the production of packaging based and also promoting the reuse of packaging, recycling and also other forms of recovering packaging based. And the fourth example that I brought today in terms of some of the key policy files that are now really in the focus is the so-called critical raw materials act or as it's called the CRM aim. It's a really key file because critical raw materials are really important to, and there is a growing demand for them to drive forward the so-called green and digital twin transition. So this file that was proposed earlier this year, it aims to ensure that the EU has access to secure and sustainable supply of critical raw materials. And also another reason that I highlighted it now is having the lens of discussing circular economy is because this file proposes benchmarks along the strategic raw material value chain. And one of these benchmarks that it proposes is an at least 15% domestic recycling target for these materials. And with the task force, we've been quite actively engaged on this file. So this will be one of the examples I share with you how we are engaging with this policy moment. Again, this is just a snapshot of some of the files. Of course, there is more that's being negotiated and which are really important, for instance, around right to repair. But again, it's just to show also the range and diversity of the policy files that are currently in discussions. If we can move to the next slide. So what's the future outbuildings? And what are some of the challenges that we face when we talk about circular economy in the EU, but also looking more globally? So the first element I would highlight is around the implementation of these policies and also the coherence between policies. So now we are in a really interesting time as we are moving towards the European elections in June 2024, and there will be also a new commission set up by the autumn. So it will be really interesting and important to see how the files that are already being negotiated, how they will be finalized and implemented. And another particularly important element will be around how coherence these files will be and how we can maximize the synergies and the alignment between the different policies, particularly the nexus between circular economy, climate, nature and digitalization. If you look a bit further, so I mentioned the upcoming EU elections. So it will be important to see how the legacy of the particularly of the circular economy action plan is featured in the next agenda and what the priorities will be of the next institutions, particularly considering that we are living in a quite rapidly shifting geopolitical context, experiencing multiple crises. So what will be, you know, how really the role of circular economy will be featured in this new agenda. And last but not least, looking more to more externally, international collaboration will be really important, particularly if you look at how we can incentivize industrial decrobinization by creating demands and also how we can truly enable a global transition towards circular economy. I would move us to the next slide. So now as I introduce like the overarching policy framework and some of the key files in the EU, I would like to walk us through a bit how the materials and products task force works in this policy context. So we can see that energy industry, intensive industries, they will really play a key role in the transition towards more climate neutrality and more circular economy. As these industries, they are really responsible for a significant portion of emissions in the EU, but both globally. Therefore, speeding up the transition in these sectors will be really critical. What we saw parallel to this policy developments that I just shared is that previously and more historically energy intensive industries have been more dominated by negative voices when discussing these policies on climate neutrality and climate. However, what we've seen and also working with our task force members is that there has been definitely a positive shift over the past years and more and more industry players are understanding how important it is to address the challenges and really scale the transformation towards climate neutrality. And with the task force, we really see that more and more businesses are also engaging in advocacy towards increasing the ambition in the policies we have. If we can move to the next slide. So Tommy already introduced the task force briefly, but this is really the context in which we work and how we work with ambitious and leading businesses and just to reiterate what we aim to do is to really drive the development, implementation and support of more ambitious and future-approved policies to really ensure that we create ecosystems that shift away more rapidly from energy and resource intensive production of materials and products. So that's really the core of what we do with the task force. Here on this slide, I'm just sharing some pictures in terms of that really shows the activities that we have. So we have regular publications, for instance, policy briefing, some specific topics, we convene high-level events. And if we go to the next slide, then I would like to showcase one concrete example of how we work with the task force and how we engage with European policy. So earlier I introduced the critical raw materials act and the importance of it. So following that the proposal was published in March earlier this year, in collaboration with the Wuppertal Institute, the task force produced a report titled, Embracing Circularity, a Pathway for Strengthening the Critical Raw Materials Act. In this study, we really looked at and focused on what role and what the key role of circular economy could play in the EU's Critical Raw Materials Act and working together with our task force members, but also other identified key stakeholders and businesses. We draw on a diverse range of business perspective. And in this report, we looked at what we see as opportunities and challenges. Then we would like to implement more circular practices in the way we use critical raw materials. I showed some pictures in the previous slide. So that was team pictures that was from the report launch. So we had a really high level report launch in the European Parliament that was hosted by MEP Sarah Mathieu, who is the shadow reporter on the environment and we committed in the Parliament on the file. So it was a really nice event and we keep engaging with this file as it's being negotiated. And we have a short video to show our engagements around the report that I think would give an example of how we work with the task force. So I think I will wrap up this scene setting here and then we have to video and look forward to the discussion later. Mining can be a messy, controversial process. Yet we need these materials for the goods that we use every day. Could we imagine our lives without our phones or laptops? The European Commission introduced the Critical Raw Materials Act in March, 2023, with the aim of diversifying where we get these materials from, including increasing domestic supply. One key solution is increasing our circularity. In other words, how we can use our materials in a more efficient and smarter way. It also means having the ability to reuse our materials when we are done with them. The Critical Raw Materials Act has a recycled content target of 15% by 2030, but circularity is far more than just recycling. In July, Seattle Europe's Materials and Products Task Force launched our report. This report combines cutting-edge research along with practical business examples. The report demonstrates that far more can be done to make the most of the materials we dig up. I think what we see is that there's really a need of an urgency in the sense that from Europe when it comes to circular economy, of course, we've already taken some steps, but honestly, I think we need to show a lot more ambition. We don't have mine in Europe. Maybe we have a few mines in Europe. The importation of raw materials from third-contracts is very high, and our dependency on strategic minerals is very high in Europe. My key takeaways are that the report points to three key policy initiatives that should be undertaken with urgency. The first of those is that we need to have a more joined-up, strategic approach to industrial strategy that links critical raw materials to the other climate and sustainability challenges. The second is that overall policy on this needs to be much more coordinated and aligned, so there are not perverse incentives. And the third is that we need to combine an overall strategy with a case-by-case approach so that each critical raw material has the right response within that overall framework. We need more of these materials, but there's only so much in the earth. I think the commission itself said that the lithium expectation for demand of lithium is going to go up by 13, 12, 13 times by 2030 and even higher by 2050. We can't do anything about that unless we use and reuse the materials we already have. And our report really demonstrates the ways that we can do that. It's expectations from our customers, our investors and our employees that we use the MU resources in a responsible way. This helps both reducing costs and becoming CO2 footprint of our production. In the automotive industry as a business, we need to go beyond climate change. And if you look at the impact on biodiversity, if you look at the geopolitical context today, we are doing business in and so on. Without circularity, we are not going to be a sustainable business in the long run. What I also heard today is that a lot of businesses are already working on these solutions that industry is really ready to take it up. But of course, that they also need to have the support and the strategy in that sense to make sure that we really create the circular ecosystem and framework. Circularity will play a key role in the way we use critical raw materials. Our report demonstrates the tangible actions that can be taken now to ensure we create a green circular European economy. If you would like to learn more, check out our report. So thank you. Thank you to Christina. And yeah, it was great to work on the report. Now, I mean, I think that's, we use that as an example of showcasing some of the work we've done, but I think we can talk about this more broadly. So I'll just take it back to the presentation. And maybe if there are any questions, we can go and take them in the comments, but maybe we'll loop back if there are any to Christina. But my suggestion is that we move now to our business panel. So it's really great to have some fabulous expertise across different borders. So we've got Anthony Abbott, as I mentioned from Rockwell and Jürgen from Nosquidro. So I think we can spotlight them, but I will start with Anthony and just I think what would be really helpful is just talking a little bit about, as I say, where you're working from, where you work, can, yeah, your views, your business views on circularity and anything else you want to showcase. So over to you. Thanks, Tamid, and hi everyone. So Rockwell, Danish company, Word's world's largest manufacturer of Stonewall products. A large majority of those Stonewall products are being used in insulation, but also in other applications, both within the building environment and also outside or cultural substrates, for example. Close to 90% of our products are defined as classified as taxonomy eligible. So products contributing to the green transition. Circularity, incredibly important for us as a business. Why is that? Because it puts us in a good place when it comes to competing in the markets. So we believe it's a competitive advantage for us, but of course it's very much closely related to driving a minimized environmental footprint, not least from a resource consumption perspective, but also from a decarbonization perspective, because there's a clear link between circularity and decarbonization. So there's a lot of good things when it comes to Stonewall products that relate to circularity, durability, average lifetime of 50 years, recycle content, typically an average recycle content is around 25%, and that's because we're able to utilize secondary raw materials. So materials coming from other industries, which are replacing virgin stone. And then the fact that our products are endlessly recyclable. And I noted in the video that circularity is very much more than recycling, which we totally agree on, but my focus here is on how we can drive more recycling in the construction industry, because we have an issue, and that is that there are an enormous amount of waste coming from the construction and demolition business that is ending up in landfill. And if we don't address that, then we're not gonna address the scarcity of resource issue, we're not gonna address the ambition of getting to net zero in 2050. Now, what are we trying to do as a company when it comes to recycling? One of the things that we have done is set a goal to offer take back systems in 30 countries by 2030. We're up to 19 countries today. And it's important for us, irrespective of whether there are conducive conditions in the respective markets for circularity. It's important for us to send the signal to the market that we can take the material back, whether it's from the construction site, from the renovation site or from the demolition site. But we're faced with a number of different challenges, and I'll just highlight two now. The first is price. We all know in the construction industry that margins are tight. And at the end of the day, if we don't value the material as a valuable material, but rather as a waste, then there is a likelihood that it will be treated as a waste and end up in landfill. One of the big challenges we have at the moment is that waste is not valued. It's not given a significant cost. Let's take landfill prices. If we start with the UK, we're talking around 118 British pounds, so around 137 Euro per tonne to send our material to landfill. If you compare that with Germany, we're talking about 400 to 700 Euro per tonne. And if you go to Austria, then we're talking about 1,000 Euro per tonne. Clearly there's a cost associated with bringing the material back to our factories. And if the landfill price is relatively low, then when our customers, contractors, companies in the building industry have to make a decision on what to do with the material, then they're going to choose the cheapest solution. And that often is landfill. Now, if landfill prices are much higher, then suddenly our take-back system becomes competitive and there's a greater likelihood that companies will choose our solution. So that's one big issue. There are a number of other regulatory issues, but that's one that I'd like to focus on. That's to us quite a great extent outside our sphere of influence, although we're very active in advocating for higher landfill prices and the banning of landfilling of recyclable products. That's happening, for example, in Germany where they're introducing a ban on the landfilling of recyclable products in 2024. Another challenge is the internal logistics or rather the reverse logistics. We are as a company experts in getting products out to market. We have less experience in getting material back from the market and that requires a considerable amount of value chain collaboration and streamlining the process from the demolition sites, the renovation sites, the construction sites, streamlining the process of getting the material back in a smart way, in a user-friendly way and in a cost-effective way. And that's something that we are working a lot on together with our partners in the value chain, waste companies in particular. And there's still a long way to go there, but good experience and good cases in different countries. Maybe, Tamid, I'll stop there and then we can maybe pick up on any questions afterwards. Yeah, that sounds good. Thanks a lot, Anthony. Yeah, really interesting and I always love actually hearing that the practical example, I think there's a, what you can find on Google is, you know, there's just reports on why circularity is important, but to really get that business aspect, and particularly for you, you know, this question of landfill being way cheaper in the United UK, which is very relevant for this conversation and what that means as a business. So, yeah, that's for sure we can come back to that, but I think it'll be a good time to pass over to Jorgen. So over to you. Thanks, Tamid, and hi everyone. So for those of you who don't know, NOSCRIDO is a global aluminum and energy company, which gives us a fairly long value chain, right? From mine through refinery, smelting, extrusions, and we also have a fairly prominent position in recycling or recycling. So I just wanted to start by saying that I completely agree with what you said on the landfilling prices, because, you know, basically we can recycle anything, it just goes through the cost. But to focus a little bit on the aluminum, so I might have a vested interest here, so you have to forgive me, but we regard aluminum and its value chain as something that carries a range of properties. That makes it a great showcase material for what the circular economy could or should entail. The metal itself, as you may or may not know, it's durable. It's corrosion resistant, as opposed to steel, for example. It has a lightweight and identical to Rockwell's product. It can be infinitely recycled at the end of its life with a fraction of the original energy consumption and without losing its quality. But having said that, it doesn't mean that the metal isn't without challenges, right? And it does carry a significant footprint, both from the social, environmental, and environmental perspective as well. So if I try to break it down, and this is, I mean, circularity is really complicated, and I've been giving five minutes, so I have to take a few shortcuts, but to try to make it as comprehensible or understandable as possible, we can split it into three main aspects and split it into three main interlinked flows when we think about circularity and heat all. So if we start with the upstream part, that's the mine and typically the refinery and up to maybe smelters. Like the first time you produce something or what we call primary metal. The key focus for us is primarily on reduction and reuse of the waste, because there will always be waste, right? You can lower it and you can utilize it better than you have, but any which way you tweak it, you will need to dig something out of the ground and you will need to refine it. The mid and downstream part, there is the recycling, sorting and reuse thing, which means we work to get back much more metal than we do today. And sort of like a separate flow, but maybe also interlinked between them is the innovation for circularity, trying to develop products and solutions with our partners and downstream customers to benefit into the circular economy. And obviously these things are tied together, but if we try to, or if I try to give you a few examples of how we think, if you start with the first one, the reduction part, we sort of coined that waste to value principle or approach, where we're closely examining and developing the business case for key waste streams to turn them into resources, more so than we do today. For example, backside residue, which is the waste generated in the early phases of producing aluminum or alumina, can be reused in other industries. It can be reused with cement or it can be reused with other types of metal production. There's iron left there, which previously had just been put into waste dumps, but we see today with development of new technology and new demand, there is actually a business case if we can sort of break down a few barriers to at least extract more value out of it. And the mid and downstream part for us, the recycling and sorting, it's critical for us to secure access to what we call post consumer scrap or end of life scrap and strengthening the sorting to avoid downgrading because even though aluminum is infinitely recyclable, it will usually be contaminated. I mean, you don't get in your car, you have aluminum, but it's not pure. So when you recycle it, it's hard to do it in a way without it being too expensive where you can reuse the metal as something sophisticated or highly valuable. So you end up in each cycle downgrading it, so to speak, because it's too hard to separate the alloys and the other metals from the aluminum. If we can think a little bit more holistic about that, we can design the cars differently, making it easier to recycle the aluminum and make it more flexible in terms of what you want to reuse it for, which is basically putting money in the bank. And this also segues a little bit into that slightly artificial pillar that I mentioned, the innovation for circularity books, right? Where we look at the different products and solutions we have and we start discussing with our customers and also with communities and authorities to see if we together can sort of establish a framework where it's incentivizes all the different parties to do this differently for the net benefit of circular economy. So that means designing outwaste as much as possible, simplifying and accommodating recycling, reuse, refurbishment. And like I mentioned with the automotive part or the car, that this assembly process. Simply to try to promote, look at every bits and pieces of the product, how can we do this differently to make it easier when we want to sort of return different bits and pieces in a also financially sound way. And just to pick up on what you said on the construction part, one example that at least cuts a little bit into this is in our business unit called building systems where we now have developed a standalone process for taking out the aluminum, which you will find typically in window frames and door frames and things like that. So prior to demolishing the building, our people or our team will actually go in and remove all these window frames and the door systems where there is a lot of valuable aluminum rather than just taking everything down and then go through third parties who will mix it up and blend it, making the recycling process much more expensive for us. There's just one example about fairly low hanging fruit but somebody has to think about it to make it fly. So again, we're at the starting point of all of this but we do see and I just want to echo my previous speaker as well that there is a lot of traction and people are interested or customer at least they're interested in exploring these solutions. So even though it's a brief snippet, I just wanted to conclude that we as a fairly big industrial company are trying to work across many dimensions, commercially, yes, but obviously also in R&D, since we see that we need some technology advances to make some of these things more viable. And we will definitely continue to invest time and resources into that. And I think it's important that has to be done through partnerships. It could be with the authorities putting up the tax for landfill, for example, but it could also be not excluding the authorities but importantly with customers who want to join us in trying to improve their own circular footprint. I think I'll just stop there but hopefully give you an idea of how a big industrial business to business company far upstream is also trying to at least do a little bit more than what we used to do. Yeah, and I think thanks a lot, Jorgan. I mean, for me as well, what I really get when I listen to you is, I mean, there's point that we use aluminium so much and so many of us and me included kind of take it for granted and really understanding the technicalities and the point you say about it can get contaminated and actually having to think about that and bringing that in a wider climate debate and also just resource practicalities is really fascinating. And yeah, the work you're doing and seeing where you can do it in different innovation, I think it gives a lot of food for thought and I've seen that you've already got some plaudits. So that's great from both of you. So I have a question that came to me in my mind. I will ask it, but in the meantime, we do have a few minutes. So if anyone does want to either share reflections or comments, please do so. But the one sort of quite broad line question that comes to me and I will also admit that it came to me a couple of years ago when I first heard businesses talking about sustainability, climate, circular economy. And it was just, why are these businesses, why are the businesses advocating for things that could be bad for them? We've heard about landfill taxes. Say, I would imagine that maybe there's someone who's joined this call for the first time and it's like, so why is a business advocating for higher taxes? That just goes against the logical thing of what I understand about businesses. So if someone wants to, well, I am posing this question to both of you. Yeah, maybe just some short reflections on, yeah, why, how does that make sense to you? So shall I give it a shot first, Jan? And then you can answer the app. So good question, Tummit. So as a company and as a business, we have been utilizing secondary raw materials from the steel industry, actually from also the aluminum industry for decades. And why have we been doing that? Because it makes business sense. It makes sense from a cost perspective. It also makes sense actually from an energy efficiency perspective because we're able to melt the stone and we're melting stone at 1500 degrees. We're able to do that in a more energy efficient way by replacing the virgin stone with secondary raw material. So you could say that's been part of our production process for decades. On top of that, we have the durability and clearly if we can say to our customers that we can maintain the performance of our products for X amount of years, then that can give us a competitive advantage. So we've had focus on that. Now, the recycling is something that we've been able to do internally. Again, it's given us an advantage both from an energy efficiency perspective from a CO2 perspective. And we have continually focused on that. The bringing the material back from the market, that's relatively new in a number of countries. We've been doing it in Denmark since the 90s and in Germany since 2000, but a number of other countries relatively new. Why are we doing that? We're doing that because we can see that it makes sense from a operations perspective, but it also makes sense from a commercial perspective because our material has an advantage compared to competing materials. And then a second driver is of course the license to operate. We have the example in Germany where they're gonna ban landfill ban, recyclable products. We have an example in France where they're introducing a mandatory extended producer responsibility scheme. So of course, if we're positioned well in advance to meet these requirements, then again commercially that makes sense. Great, thank you. Over to you, Jorgen. Yeah, okay, so I think it's important. I mean, in the perfect world, we would need any taxes or incentives, right? But I think we can agree that it's not perfect. So from a fairly sort of conceptual level, it doesn't really matter for hydro and I don't think it matters for what we're either, what the taxes, I would actually maybe not call it tax, but maybe just true cost of doing or running processes are as long as there's a level playing field, right? I mean, that's the important part and you really see it in a global economy. Because if we have to pay X for a landfill and everybody else has to pay X for a landfill, then the focus on efficiency and innovation will be distributed equally. And obviously putting a tax on something that is a net negative or net negative for the world is one of many mechanisms you can use and it works, right? Like Anthony described, it's probably easier to recycle bits and pieces in Germany simply due to the fact that even Austria, that it's economically viable, right? There's money, there's money, there's a financial possibility there. And I mean, I can just look at myself in Norway, where I, when I'm not staying in Brussels, I live in Norway, they just introduced the higher cost for the plastic bags you buy at the local grocery store. They used to be really cheap. Now they're like a euro or a little below a euro. And all of a sudden the consumption of these plastic bank drops with, I don't know, 50% in two weeks. And I've been trying for years to get people to understand you shouldn't buy plastic bags. But once you put the tax on it, you can accelerate the positive change you're looking for. So in terms of putting the infrastructure in place or sort of the blueprints to incite companies and consumers to think differently, I think it's tremendously important to, if you want an accelerated process at the very least, to put, you know, this is the actual cost of using the landfill, right? Because I have a sneaky suspicion that we're just pushing the cost in front of us, right? For the next generation, so to speak. I mean, if you look at your cell phone, there's so many rare minerals in here. There's a lot of aluminum too, but it's not enough to make it economically possible to recycle the aluminum. In your fights, for example, as well, there's lots of aluminum, but they all go to landfill, right? Because it's not enough aluminum to set up a process that makes a commercial player willing to invest the money in it. Given the technology we have today. So I think, you know, access or, you know, incentive mechanisms serves a purpose. They will never be perfect. They're always negative size too. So we should be careful with introducing them. But we also see that just simply relying on the benign nature of mankind hasn't really always led to the best solutions, at least not very fast. So, you know, that's more or less, at least maybe not to your official view here, since it's recorded, but my personal opinion, I guess. Slight disclaimer there. Yeah, thank you. And really, yeah, really interesting views both. I'm noting time and there's a few questions that came in. So I would just ask if you have any views. I mean, if you want to respond to any of the questions on the chat, would that be the best way of doing this? So there's a question on public spending, I can see. Again, we've got to get the right market signals in place. An example of a strong market signal comes from Berlin actually, where they have, so the Federation of Berlin, they have procurement guidelines where they say that only insulation materials that can be made available for reuse or recycling after deconstruction with a reasonable effort should be used. That's an example where the public sector is trying to drive the use of more circular products. And another example is in your homeland, Jürgen in Norway, where there are a number of municipalities pushing for waste-free construction. So there are a number of different types of waste-free construction sites, which again means that architects, developers, and so forth need to think twice about what materials they're using in the building to ensure that they can fulfill those criteria. So a couple of examples where the public sector can drive this agenda so we can get more solutions in the market. Great, thank you. And Jürgen, any comments to any of the questions? I did copy-paste Anthony on that one in terms of the public sector, but would also like that the private sector is equally doing the same thing. I mean, individually so, right? I mean, the benefit of the public sector is that you can get some sort of directive and everybody has to use it. But I think his point on, the architects have to take a step back and start thinking how do we design it? If you think of the eco design mechanisms, the looking from sort of the beginning to the end and then the beginning again, I think it's so important to invest more time in that and like he was an aluminum producer, we see that the greatest gains are frequently made when we can be part of the early phase process where you typically do sit down and say, for example, a building, look into the models, the data models and see where is it beneficial to put aluminum in? And if we do it, how do we make sure that we construct it in a way that makes it easy to decommission? As notoriously difficult, typically a building has a lifespan of, I don't know, 30 to 50 years, right? But we still have to try and not everything is as complicated as a building. So again, being mindful about the fact that you want it back, you want a loop, I'm pretty sure there is a lot of low hanging fruits that can be picked just starting to think a little bit more structured in the way you produce, assemble and discard products. Up to an including, maybe aluminum shouldn't be part of this process, steel is better there, aluminum is better there, et cetera, et cetera. But it needs the qualified and comprehensive discussion to get there. Yeah, for sure. Well, great, I'm seeing that we, I mean, we've got another question in, that's quite nutty. So I will just move us on to final, just some quick final reflections and I want us to make sure that we end on time. So before I forget, thank you so much both to Jorgen and Anthony and of course, Christina earlier on, as well as the wider team, so Martina and Deanna in the background for this webinar. Thank you to you for attending. I think it's really valuable and it's great that we have this technology that we can do this, just as a very quick final thought. My reflection is that for this wider move towards sustainability, climate, circular economy, I think just what we heard from the businesses of just making economic viability if we want to enable businesses to support and lead on the change, we've got to create those conditions. And I think rather than making it sort of government versus businesses versus consumers, I think there's a lot of people really wanting to do things about climate and understanding the wider issues that we face. So I think it's just enabling the different parts of our society to be able to really capitalize from that and hopefully today it's given some prompts of what different groups ourselves at CISL, government through the EU, but also businesses are doing in the face of this challenge and how we can take that forward and how for yourself you can reflect on that and in different ways of making change wherever you are. So thank you very much. If I think my email address is here, but if you would like to reach out to us, feel free to, I put the links for our reports all in the chat, but if you didn't catch them, yeah, you can contact us, find us on LinkedIn. So great, and we are on at 12 o'clock. So I will let everyone leave and continue their day. So really great. Thanks, David. Thanks, David. Thanks for having us. Bye-bye. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Bye.