 Welcome to American Issues Take One. I'm Tim Appletier, your host and today's topic and title is Update on Ukraine and Taiwan. I would like to introduce my guest here today, my co-host Jay Fiedel, our special esteemed guest Vicky Cayetano and our other special esteemed guest Chuck Crumpton. Thank you one and all for joining us on this important topic and I'm going to just go right out the chute to you Jay. How important is Ukraine, how important is Taiwan to the United States interest and second part of the question is do you think Americans may understand that importance or not? Well the question is whether Americans can walk and shoot gun at the same time and I think we have a fair proof of late that Americans cannot walk and shoot gun at the same time. I got an email this morning from Tim Snyder, history professor at Yale, where he points this out that we have simply forgotten Ukraine. Congress has forgotten Ukraine and without the United States Ukraine is in dire straits and we in turn are in dire straits because we need Ukraine to win that war. So if we turn our backs, if we abandon them it's not only bad for them, it's bad for Europe and it's bad for us. Well I just want to tag right onto that comment. Can you enlighten the mega GOPs in this country why it's important that Ukraine win this conflict? They don't seem to think so. I'm trying to do that right now. Okay go for it. Yeah well because you know it's representation of the liberal world order, it's representation of the integrity and sovereignty of Europe. It's a representation of a morality where one neighbor does not attack another neighbor, where one neighbor does not do war crimes against another neighbor, where one neighbor does not stop food shipments to the global south. I could go on, he goes on, he gives you 10 reasons anyway and I urge everybody to take a look at Tim Snyder's blog because it goes through this on a regular basis. He's very powerful and he wrote it he said. This is very interesting Tim. He said for this particular blog he wrote it for Congress. He wanted Congress to see this and everyone should send you know this particular blog of which there are many anyway to our senators and our congressmen so they should be aware of why the United States must support Ukraine. Second party question had to do with Taiwan and I totally agree you know what happened is Obama turned away from the Middle East and see what happened then and in his pivot to Asia and you know that that was not that was an incomplete pivot and then it all got turned back again or mushed up in some way so that we weren't paying attention to Asia either and now the result is increasing threats by Xi Jinping for an attack on Taiwan and those threats are growing louder all the time and one of the you know one of the elements those threats is the United States cannot really defend Taiwan. We don't have the strength, we don't have the will, we don't have the weapons and we don't have Congress and so you know it's a big problem that there are you know what three host boss in the world and we seem to be locked up in some sort of isolationist mentality so they're all of great concern Tim. Okay thank you Jay. Hey Vicki, Jay just did a great job taking Tim Snyder's points and describing the importance of Ukraine and as far especially for Europe and the world. How do you think we're doing or how is Congress doing with the funding of Ukraine? We know that the changing the Speaker of the House has disrupted that. I think our budget funding stops in nine days, the government could potentially shut down in nine days. What do you think the status is of Ukraine funding right now in Congress? No I don't have an answer to that. I think this new speaker is somebody that not a lot of people really know about in terms of what his positions are so I think it's going to be interesting you know in fairness I think one of the things that while I think most of the American public still support the war in Ukraine it doesn't help that it's gone radio silent with now the conflict in the Middle East that's you know diverting attention there but also I think in fairness there hasn't been a lot of clarity or positive news in terms of understanding that Ukraine is neutralizing at least the conflict or winning the war and so the question has to be asked is how much of an appetite does the American public have to continually fund something without some kind of end in sight you know. Yeah well let me let me follow up on that point because President Zelensky here this week had to get on the airways to retract something one of his top military officials said and what he said was that Ukraine is a stalemate and President Zelensky had to correct that perception because perhaps the concern is that a stalemate equals frustration and frustration equals the lack of funding. What are your thoughts about American's expectation and certainly Congress's expectation that the Ukraine military have success after success I'm trying to repel Russia's invasion. Let me let me add one thing that Zelensky said only yesterday or today he said don't be misled by these statements that we're winning that's not exactly true either and he felt that Congress was turning its back on this because he thought that Ukraine was doing just fine don't be misled is what he said. So would you say Jay that Congress would be more willing to fund the war if they felt that there was a stalemate or you know this is I think the challenge we have there's so much going on between Taiwan Middle East Ukraine and Congress itself I think isn't a mess without the right leadership and a strategy going forward I think it's a very challenging time and I'm not sure anybody knows what the hell is going on. You know I'd like to answer that by saying it seems to me that it depends on whether you're at one end of the spectrum or the other in other words if you're winning big everybody loves a winner if you're losing big everybody loves a loser it's and so why because the press covers the raw meat the press loves to cover when you're winning and the press loves to cover when you're losing the press doesn't cover it if it's a stalemate or when you're not winning and not losing and and regrettably and we've talked about this so many times and its true fact is the press dictates public opinion and in this case the press has turned its back on Ukraine for whatever reason raw meat and no raw meat and now nobody cares but I like to I'd like to answer one more part of your question Vicki and I was going to draw a chart for you guys okay imagine this this virtual chart at the top you get Donald Trump and he's telling Mike Johnson what to do and Mike Johnson in his new point of position is telling the house what to do and what to fund. Trump is selling don't forget for a minute that Trump owes Putin stuff don't know what it is it's probably filthy stuff he owes a duty of loyalty which he demonstrates you know since he was first in office to Putin and he has given Putin enormous space in so many ways and and then he's telling Johnson cool it on Ukraine and Johnson makes what appears to be a completely irrational unsupported dichotomy between Ukraine and Israel even though they should both be funded I suggest to you guys and I'm interested in your view of the matter also I suggest this is all about Trump he wants to do Putin a favor that's why Ukraine is getting split off from Israel. Thank you Jay Chuck this kind of ties into a question I was going to ask down the line but it's perfectly the right time and that is is Trump running this show and is Trump directly responsible although we don't see it directly but is he directly responsible for a lack of interest on the mega GOP and the regular GOP to support Ukraine. Yes but let me respond this way I think there's a really really important analogy similarly that no one in the press has raised they don't see they have no vision we have a visionless press as well as too frequently a truthless press but the analogy is to an extended family either Ukraine is part of our extended family or they are not there's no they partly are and partly aren't they're not a Kalabash custom they're either in and warrant our protection and our alliance or they don't for the republicans because they have a completely individual a moral completely irresponsible to anyone else much less the society at large much less any other people at large because that's their perspective that's their orientation they are the ultimate zero-sum entity they have relinquished anything that would resemble human values human responsibility and the ability to connect with and value people or serve people there is none of that they offer absolutely none of that so do they have a johnson do they have no johnson I leave that question for others but let me let me add one point from Snyder's blog this morning he said Americans this seemed to be enjoying a sense of fatigue about Ukraine I think he called it Ukraine fatigue he says but what what exactly is the fatigue all about because in fact you know we don't have troops on the ground we have never done more than provide money and some weapons not all the weapons that Zelensky and the Ukrainians have requested we don't have that much already at stake and yet he says we are fatigued what's wrong with this picture we'd be a lot more fatigued if we had boots on the ground and Ukraine's you know taking up the job and fighting with the Russians avoids having American boots on the ground or for that matter NATO boots on the ground so what's all the fatigue about I thought that was a very good point hey check I want to go back to the topic or the discussion about stalemate and Jay's point about the media not covering something in the middle like a stalemate taking back to the 1960s and 70s when the military officials and government officials thinking of Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara and General Westmoreland where they ginned up the news stories about successes of the American army and the Vietnamese army claiming victory after victory and it was in the form of a body count but really wampoosling perhaps President Johnson and the American public do you think Ukraine could be falling into that same that same trap like Zelensky said hey we're not necessarily winning this war yes for two reasons one because we have clearly learned nothing from Vietnam absolutely nothing I was just there for most of three and a half weeks it's the most wonderful travel destination in the world because the people are incredibly kind generous welcoming and hospitable beyond any I've ever seen anywhere in Japan is a very close second and there are some others Laos is good too but Vietnam's out there by itself second best food in the world third the experiences the places are the most truly memorable be in the best possible ways that you will ever have so I commend it but I raised that because in Vietnam there is no such thing as the Vietnam War it's the American war hey and the prior period is not called the French war it's called the the French equivalence of dependency the dependency on French period colonialism right prior to that was the Chinese domination for a thousand years okay the Vietnamese have outlasted and driven out the Chinese not militarily although they won some but in human way politically psychologically emotionally socially they have outlasted and defeated the French also militarily but also cultural they outlasted the Americans at the end of which Ho Chi Minh's plan was unite and I'm gonna get back to Ukrainian how this fits in in fact but the plan was ally with the Americans and the westerners in Europe and play China and Russia off against each other Ho Chi Minh had the greatest vision of world balance that was relationship based in a realistic and constructive way that any world leader has ever come up with and unfortunately he died and the next guy another old guy you know you want to know what stalemate is stalemate is an old spouse who has lost attractiveness and interest that's what stalemate is there's no upside to it only death is his product no end no reason for funding but that's not what Ukraine is it's not whether what stalemate is it's whether they deserve our relationship at the level that any clothes okay but getting to the question do you think they they could fall under the trap of what I would call the spin room where either the United States is spinning success whether it's realized or not on the ground in Ukraine or Ukraine starts to spin the reports of successes that may not be apparent on the ground in Ukraine are could they fall in that same trap as Vietnam I don't think that's the question I think the question here including can we learn enough from Vietnam to realize what the question is are we willing to recognize that a long-term lasting relationship familial relationship including protective measures with Ukraine is an essential part of who we need to be that's the question okay great that if you will never see in the press you will never hear raised by a politician but ultimately at a human level that is the question what is your relationship here on think tank why is it here thank you sir I heard in Tim Snyder all the time yeah uh you know switch gears here a little bit Vicky for you um the United States for the first time is directing military aid from the US coffers not not any kind of military loan program or funding from some kind of loan program we're we're now directing direct help to Taiwan and we are actually training their troops shortly or have been this seems to step up the game is that the right direction for the United States to take given our recognition of Taiwan is a one China policy or does that antagonize China or is this a wise move for us to get our get our nose under the tent so to speak with the 18 Taiwan I mean talk about multiple compound questions that's the granddaddy sorry sorry thinking Jay's actually right so here's a question synthesized and truncated is it a good idea to give direct military funding to Taiwan when there's a one China policy and we'd be kind of in opposition to that so I I hope that the the military leaders and the administration in congress think about this in terms of what is the end game what is it we want out because I believe that one of the things about the American people today is we're rather self-centered society if it doesn't affect us we're not real concerned about what's happening in the rest of the world but we've got to make sure that we understand lessons from world war two and back then Americans didn't want to enter the war either regardless of the fact that Britain was being bombed out completely so we've got to understand that we are going to be impacted when this world order goes into chaos and Russia and China are definitely interested in leading that charge and I think that with Americans understand that we will really have much more of the willpower to an understanding to support the war in Ukraine because we understand what it means to us as a people that it doesn't just end between Ukraine and Russia that it goes on to other countries and to the United States but I believe that's important and then as far as for Taiwan China wants to dominate Taiwan is not going to be the end result even though that's all they say that that has been their you know philosophy that that Taiwan belongs to China it didn't end in Hong Kong it's not going to end with Taiwan it's going to be all of Asia and I hope that the Americans understand that and aren't as short-sighted as I fear many of my own friends are like that you know how is it going to affect us we need to concentrate on things that we've got to deal with very short-sighted rather insular and isolationist policy that is going to ultimately cost the United States in so many ways and making it exactly right look at the South China state there is no question that China's actions and objectives are acquisitive far beyond Taiwan they are already butting heads with Japan and Korea intentionally frequently they are getting increasingly aggressive with the Philippines and Vietnam and others who have some tendencies to try and stand up to them but ultimately I honestly believe that it comes down to see the relationship make it the relationship that you needed to be in order to be the person you need to be if the US is a person and it's an extremely chaotic internally conflicted morally questionable person at this point in time both domestically and internationally if we are that person what relationships with whom do we most need can we most learn from to enable ourselves to be motivated to become and become better people that's the question for the US that I see all of this Ukraine by one at all the mitties it all fits into that question I want to I want to add something to that okay we're not we're not just talking about a kinetic war where we have to train the Taiwanese to be more aggressive because they're they're kind of complacent you know they think it'll all work out not going to work out and the training may or may not help but the fact is that China is involved in a non-kinetic hybrid asymmetric war all over the world including just country people don't realize the amount of hacking that's going on they don't realize the amount of theft of international rather intellectual property that's going on and it's not only in the US it's elsewhere too China is fighting its war of dominance everywhere in the world everything it does is is gauged to increase that dominance only add the same thing with Putin and Russia he is he is fighting the world of what recovering the US is are everywhere he can including on my dad in the Israeli conflict including in Azerbaijan and its fight its takeover of part of Armenia which we didn't catch at all to your point Vicky we are we are not thinking globally that is a serious problem down there and it's very violent that it's likely to blow up and Russia is involved so I mean what what you have is the US on the defensive but the US doesn't realize it's on the defensive the US as the world's policemen you know de facto but the US doesn't realize that it has burdens and responsibilities in that regard so the average guy on main street or girl on main street USA doesn't have a clue about this we have to protect the world order and if we don't they're going to have to put boots on the ground and many Americans will die okay well let me okay the average American doesn't understand that but they would understand and as they did understand when we had a semiconductor tip started they understood very quickly that they couldn't get their f-150 supplied with computer chips because there would none to be had so if if if Taiwan is 64 percent responsible for all semi semiconductor chip manufacturing isn't there an interest for China she will be a part of that and and control that and that's the question is our interest and I understand what Chuck was saying about it should be based on relationship but is our interest essentially focused on the continuation of semiconductor chip manufacturing jtu a couple of thoughts about that everybody says and I suppose it's true that China wants Taiwan because of the the Chinese chip cooperation and in part that may be true because the world more and more every day every day that we wake up needs chips for all of our consumer goods everything we need chips on the other hand remember that there was a tmsc tmsc the chip manufacturer in Taiwan they're building with American encouragement I don't think the encouragement is adequate but they're building a copycat facility somewhere in the west right now today and it's a war against time because if if that facility can be built and bigger and more capable than the one in Taiwan we don't have to worry so much but if it can if it's incomplete at the day of the crunch and I'm sure that China has a calendar also um then you know we're behind and we may never catch up so in the bottom line is the answer to your question Tim is yes okay great vicki do you agree with that answer is our primary interest to ensure uh tms i think it is um yes mc mc yes thank you do you think that's our the united states primary interest for being involved over there or is it um worried about global expansion of china and their ability to use um you know the south china sea as the free ability to use their largest navy and taiwan seems to be in the way of that I think it's both and I think for the american public to understand that how the problem with the chip production how that's going to affect our everyday lives and basically put a chokehold on everything that we do uh I'm afraid that sometimes we're very simplistic in our views and we need to connect the dots uh for the american public and when you talk about having leadership in you know what is it close to half of our population uh the republicans still having donald trump as a frontrunner for the republican nomination it's just amazing it's it's appalling because that is that general that person is the is the most selfish individual you can ever think about and that kind of messaging that american public buys into concerns me about what our people are what americans are all about now we're not willing to make sacrifices to better our lives in the long term we're really thinking short term very insular very much about what does it how does it impact my life so we need to connect the dots so that they understand how it will impact their lives and their children and grandchildren how to connect the dots to that but I believe it's all of that you talked about the chips the economy and of course world dominance well the other part will be a question to chuck on expense uh chuck this question is with the recent agreements with australia the philippines again to get more of our bases established back in the philippines most of them been put out taken out like subic bay things of that nature and japan um this is going to cost money does the does congress have a stomach for now an increasing budget uh for taiwan in addition to israel in addition to ukraine well i don't want to be a broken record stuck on the same brew but unless and until we use that person analogy and determine which relationship which with which other people countries are the most essential for us to be the kind of person we can best we need the kind of country we can best be what does that look like what are the components of that what are the tradeoffs what do we bring to the table what are they bring to the table what do we do best that we can share with them what do they do but they can share with us what can we learn from them and if anything they from until we start to do the really system design relationship building approach to our foreign relations well what what if the biden administration or or the administration after biden whatever that would be i think it's going to be trump but it's not um what if they understand that point that you're making yet we still have um the the the house of representatives controlled by the maga g.o.p uh will they get that point uh and if they don't get the point are we are we in a stalemate no it doesn't matter whether they get the point or not because if they don't get the point the train will leave without them but they have the vote but they don't they can't pass anything they can't pass anything in the senate their own minority leader opposes them on ukraine okay no they don't have the votes they don't have the votes you need affirmative votes to take affirmative action they're talking about a stalemate when nobody takes action we cannot afford to do that right this is the person who is in a situation where they're in an amazingly diverse room a room of amazingly diverse wonderful people with whom relationships and learning are infinitely possible and they're so internally conflicted that they cannot move forward on any single relationship so that's my answer to your question okay great uh we've run out of time so i get to go around the virtual table and i'll start with you jay uh your final thoughts on ukraine and or taiwan or both i want to go to a point that the truck made a minute ago or you or both of you about the quad you know in in the in south pacific and one of the countries is the philippines and they have really stepped up you know they have been courageous in dealing with the chinese and they've been you know they took them to the uh international court and won and the chinese on jurisdiction over the ic's um and the chinese ignored that but to keep on responding to the chinese provocations and you got to give them credit for that it wasn't like that before but it's it's like that now so this this fellow marcos marcos jr uh he's stepping up but what what the show we're having a show about this tomorrow with a representative of the security office in the philippines and what we're going to talk about is something that is relevant but we haven't talked about it yet here today and that is the attempts of these rogue countries in this case china uh to manipulate and undermine the governments of those countries that are opposed to them and in this case it's the philippines we're going to talk about what steps the chinese have taken to undermine to make political war within the philippines and i suggest to you those you know talk about lessons over vietnam as chuck mentioned or lessons out of world war two that vicky mentioned we should be watching to see what the chinese are doing in the philippines to see what they're doing here um because they're doing stuff here and and of course uh you know putans through trump is doing stuff here and and i suggest to you that this remarkable unbelievable division in our country and our government uh that that makes it incapable okay uh is because of social media being manipulated and other political manipulations that are organized in vijing and musko and we can't forget that i think that is happening right now and will continue to happen right through election day and beyond great final points jay thank you so much vicky your final thoughts on the topic so well said jay i would just echo what uh you just stated i hope the american people understand a tremendous threat i i think unlike any other time since world war two in history for us as a country uh that we are threatened now uh and whether it's a combination of things as you say social media interference with our elections uh we really need to come together because world order does matter and we don't want to live under an autocratic regime and uh that is being that is a serious real threat to us now and the fact that we can't get things done in congress should not be the norm that people accept anymore but we ought to be raising havoc over that because we as a country cannot move forward uh if we don't resolve this issue in our own backyard so i certainly hope that we uh are much more um enlightened learn from the lessons of history and that the elections next year will produce a better uh leadership that that will take our country in the right direction here here yeah great great comment as well chuck looks like you get the final word today jay and vicky both brilliant and incisive agree 150 and i'm also hearing that unless and until we really see our life our choices as a nation as groups and as individuals as which relationship will we connect with honor and value to enable us to be the best possible people we can until that becomes our direction in not only foreign relations but domestic relations and actions and our relations with each other in the society we will continue to go in directions that if we had seen this coming in the 1960s we would have been in a word disheartened broken heart all right thank you chuck uh we have run out of time so i'd like to thank my esteemed guests vicky kayetano and chuck crumpton thank you for taking time out of your busy day to join us on american issues take one i certainly want to thank my co-host jay fidel for taking time out of his day to keep this show afloat and i would like to say join us next week on american issues take one i'm tim epichella and until then hello