 Fel ydych chi'n ei wneud i'ch gael y cyfrifedd ymddangos ni, Nathan, i wneud i'ch gyfrifedd y ffôr, a dyna yn ymddangos i'ch gael y dyma. Fel yna, Nathan, mae yma'n ymddangos i'ch cyfrifedd yr ERC-draid ymddangos, wrth i'ch ei gael ymddangos i'ch cyfrifedd ymddangos ymddangos ymddangos. Felly mae'r project 5 ymddangos, ac mae gennym nhw i'ch gael i'ch gael i'ch gael i'ch gael i'ch gael. I boQuewch i'n hayf ar gyfer o'r gwahod o'r wych nghylchau'r gweithio. Fy'r gwahod o'r wych yn deall, a yn ychynid. Oes gobeithio, mae gennym eisiau eu gyn bob un o'r gweithio. Felly y maen nhw'n gwisio rwy'n cael ei wneud y bod ni wedi'u cefnwyr yn y rhaid, ac roedd ni'n gobeithio fod wedi eu gwahod gyda sicrhau y wneud yma. sy'n dewis eich cyfeirio y cyfnod. Rwy'n cyfle, yn dda, dweud hynny'n gorfod rhywbeth yna dweud hefyd i'ch mas Ym Mмыnydan, ond Rhaid Ddweud ers Ym Mwynydan yw ddim. Mu'n dwylo dweud, oherwydd rwy'n oed yn gallu nhw'n oeddod i dda i ddatganiadol yn y cwngor, ac mae'n ddweud i gweithio'r tyfu. Rwy'n oedda i ddweud i'r cyfoes. Mae'n meddwl doesion hynny. Rwy'n oeddod i'r cyfeirio mewn i'w ddiwylliant oherwydd Gwethech chi'n cael ei wneud yn eich amser yma. Rydyn ni'n gwneud fyddai'r phwysig fyddai'r cwmwysig ystafell hynny, ac mae'n arwain iawn gwybod ei ddweud yn ei ddweud yn bwysig yn Zotero, ac mae'n gallu gwneud yn gwneud yn y llyfr. Dw i'r ddweud o'r 25 yma, mae'n ddweud'r llai yn y llai, mae'r hynny'n fawr yn ei ddweud yn fawr yn bwysig yn bwysig yn bwysig yn bwysig yn bwysig yn bwysig. I'm happy with that. I'm not going to go back and re-enter everything into Zatira. That's the sort of point I'm going to make. I want everything to be as efficient as possible without me having to go and do huge amounts of manual processing of data. Okay, so I will move on what's, oh gosh, updates ready to install. That's not what I want. Council. Here we go. Okay, so very simple. The project is really quite simple, especially, you know, if you look at it compared to Beyond Boundaries, we've got primary outputs, 10 critical editions of Sanskrit texts on yoga, ranging from about the 11th century to the 19th century. Four monographs and, as I say, umpteen articles, I can't remember. There's probably about 20 journal articles we're going to be producing by the end of it. And our data for producing those primary outputs is, so the primary data categories are scans of manuscripts and published editions. Okay, so we've got one of the project team members that's spent probably most of the last two years in India going round manuscript libraries collecting scans where he can. And also, of course, there are lots of, you know, some of the texts we're working on have been edited in some way, so we try and track down some of the editions that are very obscure, but we track them down and we use scans of those as well. And then the two primary methods in the project proposal are philology, so the editing of these texts and ethnography. So we've got one full-time ethnographer on the project as well. And she spent probably half, you know, already over a year in India searching out traditional yoga practitioners, interviewing them, taking photographs, filming them and so forth. So she produces that ethnographic data. And then a sort of, we didn't flag it up quite so much in the project proposal, but a pretty key part of our work as well, our key source of information, are historical, are historical materials that depict yoga practice. And I'll talk a bit more about all these categories in a minute. Now, where I think, at the moment, the way we store this data is fairly unsystematically, we're not, you know, tagging it with loads of metadata and so forth. I think Daniela is a bit with her ethnographic stuff, but probably not to the degree that would meet the usual requirements at the moment. We've got a shared Google Drive folder and then everything comes down to our personal laptops and then we all back that up on external hard drives and that's it at the moment. But I will talk about the plans for the future now. So yeah, looking at the philological side of the project, the text data processing. So the process of that is we get all the witnesses, we kind of a text, but we start before we've got all the witnesses, which is an ongoing process, and collate those witnesses, those manuscripts. Now, in the project proposal, I did put some fancy stuff in about clodistics. Does anyone know about clodistic called stemmer analysis? But to be honest, since I've looked into it, since the proposal, I've become more and more sceptical about clodistical analysis and I don't think we're going to use it at all. There are various problems with it. Not least, what it is, it's a way of forming a stemmer of a manuscript tradition modelled on genetic analysis, and one of the problems is that you can only fork in two ways. You're going to have a bifocatio, you can't have a trifocatio, and of course, we all know that one manuscript might get copied by more than two scribes, so instantly breaks down there, and it also can't take into account contamination between branches of a stemmer. So this is one of the examples of things where there's a bit of a fashion in indology at the moment, and certain people are really promoting this, but I'm extremely sceptical about it, and I think actually what would be very beneficial would be a project looking at exactly that and seeing whether it is helpful or not, because I don't think anyone's… People don't seem to be questioning it. That seems to be a problem with some of the digital tools available. People just think, oh great, digital humanities is a new digital tool, let's go for it, and I think we need to be a little bit sceptical. Again, for collation, there are tools for collating large bodies of witnesses and so forth, and in fact, when I started my PhD in 1995, I was urged to use this new programme, Collate, that was being developed in Oxford, but again, I think that it actually cost me a lot of time doing that. First of all, you have to read the manuscript, and you have to transcribe it, and then you have to break it up into little chunks that can then be prepared, and I honestly think it probably wasted months of my time doing that, and I wouldn't do that again. Then there's… So, after you've collated your witnesses, there's the editing process. Now, fortunately, well, especially since I've discounted systematic analysis, again, with our texts, we always have contamination, so you can't do rigid mechanical systematic analysis, so the editing really is a… We need to do it. I don't think any digital tools yet have been developed in any way that would be able to perform the editing job on our texts, and then finally, once we've collated and edited, we want to produce the edition for publication. Now, what we're going to do with our project is every edition we're going to produce finally in XML and the TEI encoding that's been developed, especially for the SARIT project. Now, again, in the project proposal, I got all excited and wrote, it seemed like it would be practicable at the time, whereby from the XML SARIT file, you could then process it two ways. You could either go just at the touch of a button that could be converted into Lartec and then a PDF, so book publishing form, or the other way into HTML. I think I've got some pictures for those of you who… Here's an example of a SARIT file. You can't see it, but it's a website. It's got not a huge number of texts yet. I mean, that's one of the problem of these things is there's only a small body of text. Actually, I don't think many endologists are using it as a search tool, but it's very good for presenting a single text, and also we know it's sustainable. It's funding. It's just got a new round of funding from Heidelberg and so forth, so those texts are going to be there for a long time. There's an output file, a PDF produced by Lartec, of a critical edition, and then there are these fancy, very impressive HTML outputs you can get. This was developed by Charles Lee, who's at Cambridge. This is a very nice front-end. You can see at theSaptomIver.org, where you can alter all the parameters of which manuscripts you're looking at and so forth, and it will generate an additional apparatus. This is another one. I was hoping to be able to go live onto the internet, but I don't think I would attempt to do that now. Andrew Ollett developed this one whereby, again, from an XML file, you can wave your mass over these highlighted bits of the edited text, and the variants will pop up by magic. This is what I think we want to do, is we want to make our editions, we want people to read our critical editions, and this seems to be a very good format to encourage people to look at the variants. One of the things we've been talking about yesterday was documenting the process of our research, of working with this data, and whether we need to do that, whether we need to make that available. I was reminded of this a couple of days ago when a friend posted this on Facebook. It's one of Daniel Ingalls's notebooks. He's been going through some Harvard archives, trying to understand how a great scholar Ingalls produced various of his works. I think it would be somewhat hubristic to assume that people might want to do the same with our work. Also, this is something I've thought maybe we could raise in the discussion. I'm not going to go too much further into it, but I don't really see how one would be able to record the process of editing. I'm not sure it's particularly useful. As I say, it's hard enough to get people to read critical editions in the first place, let alone go through the mechanics of how they were made. I will one little aside. There's one moment, I was talking about this a few months ago with some colleagues, when one's editing a text, there's one moment I think would be nice to record. I haven't worked out a way of doing it. You've collated a few manuscripts. A bit of the text doesn't make sense, so you come up with a brilliant emendation, and you record it in your critical edition, then you collate another manuscript, and there it is. Your emendation is now recorded in the manuscript, and you think, yes, I was right. Then there's that sinking feeling when you realise that now, in the addition, you're just going to be recording that witness and not your brilliant emendation anymore. That would be one interesting thing to go back for. There should be some sort of German word for it, I think, for that feeling. Anyway, that is how I move on. Now also with all our data, our primary source of data is manuscript sources, and I know we're meant to make everything available, particularly with this ERC funded project, but the thought of trying to get permission from all Indian libraries to actually make, even once you've got the scans, to then be allowed to put them online and make them publicly available just fills me with absolute horror. I got this email yesterday from Jason, who's one in India at the moment, going around the libraries. Let's just give you a new example. We went to the Sanskrit College's library today only to learn that the uncle of the librarian had died that morning, and the librarian had gone to a village some distance from coach interview with her family. We met the principal and she was very nice. She said the librarian is a custodian of the library, and she's the only one with a key. What can I do? You must come back on Wednesday. Just seeing the manuscripts is often a triumph, and then getting permission to scan them, but getting permission to make them public, I think, that would be a whole another five-year project, probably for each library in itself. That's not something we're considering. I was also relieved to see this. This is also the hot off the press, just two or three days ago. It's not only us. It's not only foreign scholars, even Baba Ramdev, who's tight with the government. He's a Ayurveda yoga guru, stroke businessman entrepreneur. Even he's having trouble getting hold of manuscripts from the government repository in Delhi. This is a problem in our work and pretty insurmountable, I think. It's not getting any easier, put it that way. Okay, so that's the textual data. Now I've got until the hour, haven't I? It's your type. Good. Now I'm going to look at our historical data. I'll give you an example, basically. I'll give you some examples of the stuff we work with and what we might do with the photographs and scans that we have. This is probably the most exciting discovery we've made so far. This was last year. I and Daniela came to this gate on it. I just see one passing note in a Hindi article about it, and there were some, meant to be some statues of some famous yogis at the bottom. But then, and it happened to be on our route, it's this rather obscure little town in Gujarat. Then we noticed when we were looking at the famous yogis here in relief, and then up in here all these yogis doing complex yoga postures. This makes them the oldest such statues by about 300 years. It's a very exciting discovery. We got some rather bad photographs at the time. I don't know if you can tell what's going on, but actually you can from this. We then went back and got some better photographs. That was a whole saga in itself. I went with Mark Singleton as my colleague on the project with Indian photographer. That, again, is worth a book in itself, the story of how we got these photographs. I won't go into it now. But again, I'm wondering, do we need to preserve the story of the different levels? We've got about three or four sets of photographs of this gate getting better and better. Presumably we just want to publish the best ones. Although just go back to this one. I don't know if you can make it. Now it was quite handy having the pigeon on the top. I don't know if you can see it, because at least with that one I can prove I haven't just turned the photograph upside down. It's not someone sitting in lotus posture. Now the other sort of sources, we use one in particular that I've worked with a lot, mughal miniatures of yogis. What we found, particularly with the mughal miniatures, incredibly they're very, what's the word, there's a realist, there's an art historical term, but they really seem to depict real characters and by analysing the insignia and the very fine details in these miniatures, we can kind of, I've used that to map the history of yoga practices and also certain sects of yogis. So here I'm showing this one because of, I've spent much too long looking at the position of earrings in yogis ears and you see here there in the ear lobes and then there was an important shift a couple of hundred years later when the earrings move into the cartelages. Now this is a very sort of specific minor example but what, the point is this is a very useful tool for analysing the history. In fact, Nicety Doward at the back actually his work I think I reference when I'm going on about earrings, but these images are very useful tool but I've got thousands of them on my computer, completely disorganised. Now they also in tandem with ethnographic images, so here's a photograph of a yogi I took at Cumbul Mela in their 2013 and then we can compare that. Actually this is an image from the same album as the previous image I showed, so we know this is a sort of ancient ascetic yoga practice. Meanwhile, the same yogi of today is doing things like this which we have no precedence for and in fact seems to be derived from western modern yoga and tradition. So what I want to do with all these images and it's not written into the project but I've just put in a proposal to the Welcome Institute and hopefully that might come through but I'm determined to make this happen. I've got a part-time PhD student who's all ready to use the other half of her time to input to create a big database of yoga images. So to be something, we're not sure where we're going to host it, that's all depends if we get the funding and so forth, but to that is something I can really see the use of if we tag all these images with metadata, both historical, modern images, we can say lotus position in the 17th century by a female yoga name, we can bring up all the pictures of that and then that would be extremely useful for tracing the history of yoga. So that's what I plan, that's in the dream world what will happen with all the photographic, the image data that we've got as part of the project. And that is it I think, that's all I was going to say about our data. As I said I'm open for throw tomatoes at me rotten eggs, I'm worried that we might be doing something very wrong but we're in the perfect position now, as I said we're two years in, we've amassed a lot of data, I think we're over the hill of manuscript scan acquisitions so now is a good time to be planning for what we're going to do with all that data and how we store it and how we present it and so forth. Okay thank you. I'm going to abuse my prerogative here and ask the question and make comments over the comment. Jeff will tell me that if you have filmed the manuscript it's and it's pre-modern there's no legal issues to share it. It may be extremely rude to the owner of the document legally it's okay but what worries me is that then may jeopardize future scholars going to get the scans of other manuscripts. Then I'll also point out that on Zanodo you can have an embargo period so you could upload all of those and say make this open access in 50 years and now whether or not you believe that will work in terms of what the world will be like for the years from now is not a question but it might be worth thinking about particularly in terms of compliance questions. With the ELC. So it's absolutely the adamant that you have to make all data available publicly available. That's maybe a different discussion but if you did want to make data publicly available without defending people in India you couldn't embargo it with a long environment. And then my question is about your metadata so for instance you have pictures from google books and pictures of the you took in the combi mail and how are you keeping track of like who took this when where what library holds this miniature that I do a picture of? Completely haphazardly to be honest. That's why people send me images all the time. I haven't got time to you know input metadata for all of them. I suppose that my photographs and Daniela's Daniela does give good metadata with you know stores keeps good metadata with her photographs so that's probably a different thing. The ethnographic thing is better but the historical images one can with time and effort track down where they've come from and create that metadata. I don't think it's going to be lost and perhaps not where it was scanned and that kind of thing. But yes that's why I think it'd be great to have this project of an online you know yoga image archive or something. Okay now other people. Yeah you've already asked my metadata question but the second part of my question is about data sharing so you say you have everything in Google Drive and your team and do people work with these other data and how do you know what is what and especially all this precious information that you have and that you haven't recorded anywhere. Well we have. Yeah we do all use it. We can all access I mean all the each so yet there's a folder for every text that we're working on and then all its manuscripts in subfolders and there'll be scans within those so we can all access them quite happily. Daniela's photographs she's the ethnographer they're all available to us and we have files of you know rare books whatever that's it I mean yeah I mean that's it's all I mean I was quite what was the someone mentioned something yesterday I made an overview that looks quite useful because at the moment as I said we've we've got enough work to keep everyone busy individually so we're not sort of at the same time we're not working on the same text. We did try what was that programme Sub-Ether Edit and that was a way of of collaborating you know working on text files at the same time so if everyone's online then everyone can edit the same document but we had lots of problems with that it often didn't work and after all we just gave up and now we're back to the old you know you work on it and then tell me when you're finished and send me an email and I'll work on it um but if this I might have an overleaf and see if that works um I suppose two two questions are one of them is I can understand how it's very I don't wish to be sort of press you on this point in a way that suggests I'm doing something wrong but I can understand why it's very difficult to go back and ask a whole bunch of Indian institutions anything um but there seems to be a due diligence element it doesn't seem like there's a lot of effort involved in saying would you be okay with us uploading this right for public use at the moment where you're in there yes and are making the sense that's true um that kind of due diligence or I'm going to do things with the thing you've given the access to as a result of you maybe I have a due diligence to actually tell you what I'm going to do and make sure you're okay with it well normally you have to often you have to sign something don't you saying that you will give them any publication that you've used it in whether that also says you work reproducer imagine all the things you might do is not necessarily permission um you know I wonder if you have a due diligence to say look this is what we plan to do with it are there any of these things that you might have an issue with right um so I just wonder about that particular yeah kind of I mean yeah we but now you mentioned I'm sort of thinking you could also just sort of after you've got the data then email and ask permission and say because they never respond to emails you can say well I am yes um you can say if you don't respond to this I'll take that yes but yes you're right we should we could just make that part I mean maybe I should say it to Jason look from now on at the point of receipt because you don't want to jeopardise it until you've actually got hold of the things as well they might go oh hang on you know if you ask beforehand and normally they'll have you know normally it's they make you wait for days and you tell them you've got to fly at home and you know that evening and you'll get it at six o'clock just as you've got to get in your taxes in case of grabbing it and running um but yeah I will suggest that to Jason that's a good idea and I just um I was just walking at you I wanted to mention it's there's obviously a lot of variation between libraries and in particular the big chain libraries are well known for being extremely hospitable and helpful and you know they'll put you up for free and feed you and and give you scans for free and I don't know what they I expect their policy they expect they would be fine about uploading the data online as well please yeah I I I wonder we um you and I have talked and it's on your website the connection between um the actual asanas and descriptions and texts and I wonder um it seems to me like that would be obviously given what you said about under the bond and things not something for you to do but it would be wonderful to have um a description in the text which somehow links to a visualization of a particular right you're reading now you put your left leg behind your head and absolutely your pinky I don't know and then there's a picture either historical picture or contemporary picture or both which says look this is this awesome yeah I know we've done that in fact Mark's much more involved than I was in a film we just made a film of the latest the sort of most recent of the text we're editing which has 110 postures is it 112 and we've had you know models in to do those those those poses that's all been filmed they I think some of them have proved impossible even for England's bendiest yogis so we may have to go to Indian school children is looking up in its next next point of call yeah part of the problem is that you really don't know often what's being described the description can be quite quite terse or like streaks and so to put a picture next to it might be a little bit misleading yes we just can't figure out what's going on yeah Mandela I think I mean this is just such an amazing project I mean the content and stuff you're bringing together but I think that one of the most important lesson also for people for funders but also for people that apply is that the amount of work it takes to make this digitally available it's totally underestimated FN right Frederica is just finishing a huge project the crossroads project and because she had it I'm just saying that she had worked in this realm before she she noted knew exactly how to manage her five phd students and postdocs and well yeah but I think and this is something when we see grant so I read a lot of grant applications because they have double heads hats heads is that the amount of work it takes to constantly input the metadata and to manage the materials and systematically file name and to sort them and to order them is so much work that in principle every project should have someone that does this work if you're working on the scale that you are working on right where it's not one person and we know from their data languages documentation project the phd students goes in train qualitatively they start they collect a shitload of data and at day three they forget what they were recording and what they were talking about because they think they can keep it in their minds right and they can't and then they come up to the end of their their three years phd thing they have to submit the documentary corpus to us and they have to finish your dissertation write some articles get a job but I think it's really key to understand that we always think the digital is easy no it's not it's so much work yeah we underestimate this and in the end you know the researchers go into well we can't manage this so we're not going to do this and then my question comes what happens if you get hit by a bus when you walk out the street now with all this material on your google drive google has it yeah great yeah with no metadata there yeah or not will summon it we have to um we have to move on although I will say that when you were talking about how difficult something was that it was faster to do the old fashioned way when I started on my project with Matus he said writing anemlogical dictionary old fashioned way will be much much faster than doing it this way yeah exactly so we will so I saw other benefits in doing it the fancy computer way in terms of methodological explicitness um there also might be things about like whether you're not immediately hit by a bus but I do think that you're you're right to ask kind of what are these computers giving me and if someone tells you it's a new time they're lying uh okay