 Hi everybody, and welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. So I am delighted to welcome back Dr. Anvita Madan Bihal to the podcast today. Anvita, as you know, is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the perspective, the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kamasutra has to give. Anvita has been missing for a while from the podcast due to medical reasons. Anvita, we have been missing your perspective and I am entirely delighted that you're back. Thank you, Seema. I am so excited to be back and I just want to apologize to our viewers and our listeners that I have been missing. I can't control the circumstances, so we will try making as many videos. I will try making as many videos with Seema as possible, but please be patient and keep tuning in and listening and seeing us here. So Anvita, this is a question I've been holding on to waiting for you to come back because it's a question that has increased in numbers, so the amount of emails that have been coming in about this, and it's a question that is particularly distressing me. So I've had a lot of people writing in complaining that their partners have had a sexual encounter before they got together, so it's not that they've cheated on them, it's from before they got together, but that they're finding it difficult to accept, particularly from young men who say that we have had an arranged marriage and now I find out that my wife had other sexual encounters before we got married and I find it very difficult to accept. And as I said, I'm finding it hard to understand how this can still be a mindset and how can we now start to change this with the people who are getting upset with this and for society particularly, what is the advice that we're going to give to them? So I do think that it's really unfortunate that this mindset does exist still and it is a problem because I think there have been generations and generations of messaging that keeps coming around morality and virginity of women and that's how women should be and times have, I wonder if times have changed because I think women still explored their sexuality but it was just hidden and now women are more open about it, they are willing to talk about their sexuality, men are willing. I think if young people engage within a relationship, they are looking at sexual experimentation as part of a romantic relationship. So if men have that need or that desire from a relationship before marriage, then it becomes a little bit hypocritical for them to then have a problem if their partner or their wife had engaged in the relationship before because if it was acceptable for your girlfriend, it should be acceptable for your wife. So it is, I think with changing times and for the modern India or South Asia that is to come, I think it is problematic to hold on to those messages and those ideas. As you said at one stage earlier when we were chatting that people are getting married later and later now, so it is more than likely that they would have had other people in their lives and it's absolutely not something that is either bad or wrong to have done so. Well, I think we need to understand the context of all these ideas that come, like we're talking about ideas of child marriage and everything where you stayed in your parents' house and you were given to a family and then when you hit puberty, you moved in to the new family. Now times are changing, people are becoming independent, they're becoming financially independent, careers are becoming important or ambitions are becoming important. So both men and women are getting married later and they are saying that sexuality is something that they're willing to engage with before. So I think it is, I think they need to really consider it, that how long are men willing, like so if men are getting married at 32, are they willing to be virgins? Then if they're expecting it from the women, are they willing to be virgins still 32? The 40 year old virgin is a problematic idea still in any part of the world. So if that criteria doesn't exist for men, why does it exist for women and also how are men going to change that? Because it is really their problem that they want virgin once. Yeah, and particularly I noticed that it's this idea that it was an arranged marriage. So what is it about that one particular word that suddenly makes everything so different? That if it is an arranged marriage then the girl has to be pure in inverted commas. Yeah, so if I wanted to change something with this question or this idea, I really would want to change the messaging young people get about this because I think as a society we make this about virgin women, pure women, morality, how women, if they have sex before marriage, they are loose or they are impure and the expectation is that if I am having an arranged marriage or I'm having a marriage then I need to have the perfect woman and a perfect woman shouldn't have engaged sexually with someone else. So I think this idea really needs to change and we need to change the messaging. We need to change the society that this is no longer a criteria or that there isn't morality or judgment attached to women's sexuality. So a lot of the men are coming forward and saying she didn't even tell me. I mean that's the line and the messages. She didn't even tell me. Is it necessary that a woman who's had a relationship well before she's met this man that she should have to disclose that? And secondly, what is it that makes the woman disclose it afterwards? I mean why should that come up at all? So one of the things that I want to say is that if this is important to you and everybody has their criteria like when I meet friends and otherwise in their thinking of marriage, I always say come up with your five priorities or deal breakers and it could be anything. Like people ask all sorts of questions between religion, what people like eating, not like eating, what do they think about politics and things. They would ask about your hygiene habits. Like there's so many things that are deal breakers for people. So if wanting a partner who hasn't had sex before marriage is an important issue for you then ask the question. Like if that is important to you, think about it. Ask the question. Discuss it. So don't leave it or don't make this assumption that oh women wouldn't have had sex before marriage because I do agree. I think that's the idea of the yesteryears. That's no longer a given. So if that is important and it could be important for men, women. Like it could be important that women want virgin husbands then ask the question because it is truly something you want. It's not something that the other person wants from you. It's not your partner doesn't want it from you. So if they wanted they would ask the question. So don't blame the partner if they haven't disclosed. You never asked. So if this is important please ask before. And if you find out later I would really ask you to reflect on why is it irking you. Is it because you just have this preconceived notion or messaging? Or is there something else that is bothering you or irking you? These things can be worked through. They can be talked through. You just need to reflect on what is irking you. Sometimes I think it's difficult for men because they also are challenged with the ideas of oh she's been with another man and all those things and they can irk men. But they are just things we've seen in social media and movies and everything and they don't really exist in real life. Like look at your relationship and not the messages. I think jealousy is a two way street. I mean both partners can find that really distressing. And I know that it is something that bothers a lot of people. But I think that if it is something that has happened before you have gotten together you really need to bring it into perspective don't you? I can understand if somebody is cheating on you at that point then it's a problem. But if you have already been with that person for a while and you've come to know them as somebody that you love they've got so many good points then that their goodness or their suitability to be with you shouldn't depend on them having been a virgin before they came to your bed. Yeah and so I think and that's when I say that have that conversation or process it because I think trust within the relationship these ideas of jealousy, guilt, not trusting your partner or questioning your partner or doubting your partner have deeper roots than if they've had sex before marriage or not. And so something might be happening or you just need to build that trust. You need to build that intimacy. You can work through this. If everything else is going really well in your relationship like if you are in a happy, healthy, understanding relationship then this is something that you can work through. And you need to understand why it's bothering you. Why is it important? And you know Seema we can speak a little bit about the traditions and everything because people I think it is very tough on men as well because they for when we work with young men or adolescent men we really needed to work with because they have pressures of saying or you need to be the experienced one you need to be the one who has the experience and the knowledge and before marriage you should have had sex before. Well who are you having sex with before marriage? Like who are those women? Then who are they getting married to? So all these things I think they are tough on men as well and we need to consider those and that's why society needs to change for both men and women. I think that when it comes to sexuality particularly for some reason the level of distrust and the level of angst around it supersedes everything else. I mean I know that we have this thing about if a woman is doing much better at her work a lot of times the man will feel a little bit threatened, he'll feel a little bit undermined but when it comes to sexuality I think that it just kicks the ball out of the park because a lot of women have actually written in and said that there is so much sexual doubt and distrust in their marriage that even if they ask for something when they're in bed together the man wants to know how did you know? So whether they've learned it from pleasuring themselves, whether they've had other sexual encounters, whether they've been watching porn and they want to try something but they're immediately asked to explain their ability to know about other things. Yeah and this is something that it was one of the first things that we worked with young women in sex education when we did it like comprehensive sexuality education because even the idea that if young women or women asked their partners to use a condom they would say oh how do you know about a condom use? Have you had sex before? Like it immediately went there and we would say well couldn't they read? Couldn't they have attended sex education classes? Couldn't they have watched pornography? Couldn't they have knowledge? Couldn't they have desires or experiences and otherwise? So it is problematic because that aspect of women a woman's life her sexuality is something that is seen as do not exist. You know women can't have a sexual life or a sexual side so they can't have a desire, they can't have knowledge, they can't have fantasies, they can't experiment with it and as we've said multiple times on this podcast it always existed. Women always had sexual desires, there's as much sexual beings as men and they continue to experiment and I think times have changed where women are owning up more and more to their sexual desires and willingness to engage with sex like consensually willingly wanting to engage with sex and sexuality. So let's say a woman was to come to you and ask whether she should disclose her previous relationship or not. What would your advice be? So my advice would be that I think every relationship, every person is different. They should really find support, could be a friend, could be a family member, could be professional help and understand why they want to disclose it and what is the reason behind disclosing it and how would it be received like what could be the consequences of them sharing it and be ready for those consequences you know and I think some people can't live without sharing it like they feel like they can't hold it inside. Some people feel like it could really jeopardize the family dynamics or the relationships. So I really think it's individual and I think a lot, it is a difficult, what I will say is that I think it is a difficult choice to make. I wish society was different where this would be an open conversation but I understand that it's complex and it's things. So I would say don't hold it on inside. You will be living in fear of things always feeling like oh I'm going to get caught out or something like that. So speak to somebody, discuss it with a family member, friend, professionally and see what's right for your relationship and for the family dynamic that exists for you. Because you're right when you say about the consequences you know that could it's not just about distrust and anger and oh my god you know you betrayed me but it could actually lead to physical violence and it has done so in many instances. So I guess disclosure is something that one needs to do with a great deal of thought behind it if you decide that you want to talk about it and frankly if it's happened well before I don't see why somebody needs to go and talk about it way later to a different relationship particularly if you think it's going to cause a problem. I mean you know I don't know it's just one of those things that I feel isn't really it shouldn't be something that you need to flag up as a problem thing oh my god you know almost like saying I had sex it's something that you need to know about. Yeah and what I do know is that women feel very pressured about the wedding night and there are all these myths that exist within our society about having a bloodstained sheet and they have led to especially in the Middle Eastern countries or other countries where women would have hymen reconstruction surgeries or vagina stitching surgeries which are very problematic because they're mostly from they're not from professionals you know they are from medical fraternity that are not qualified to do those things but they feel like they need to play that part and they feel a lot of pressure and the reality is that the hymen can break at any point while you're cycling while you're playing sports like through any reason like the bloodstained sheet sorry it's a tongue twister is not a proof of your virginity and it's not a badge of your honor. Yeah and no proof like that exists for men like what is the criteria for us to say this is the proof that I'm a virgin man and when we take the word of a man you know when a man says I've not had sex before we take their word that same respect should be given to women like when they say we've not had sexual sex before then we should just believe them so all these traditions actually add to the pressure so like you were saying that it is it does women feel a lot of pressure they feel a lot of nervousness and there is so much lack of information and education around this that it adds to a lot of pressure for women and once again it's about changing the mindset in this society. It's about changing the mindset absolutely so you know with this thing as I'm saying that a lot of women however it's not just the men it's also a lot of women who see this as a badge of their honor that I was a virgin on the day that I got married it's so important to them and as you know being in the profession that you are that bad sex eventually can also be the cause of a breakup of a relationship. Yeah and I think sexual compatibility has become an important criteria for a lot of partners. It's not the only criteria but they are saying I need to see this and what we need to remember is there is and we've said this idea before on the video there's nothing known as one lover fits all you know this is a good lover and this is a bad lover it is about compatibility it's about what two people like when they're having sex so it's not got to do with oh there's a good lover and there's you know and there's this idea of oh this guy is really good in bed or this woman's really good in bed it is about two people liking the same kind of sexual activities and behaviors and the compatibility and so it's become an important thing between partners and couples where they are looking for sexual compatibility it's become an important criteria but like any relationship you know what's important for you at the beginning of the relationship might not be important later on you know you might be looking for different things so I wouldn't say it's the only criteria but it is one of the criterias and it's okay to find it important if that's what's important for you. I think that I'd like to finish with asking you what you would recommend to women now we've said to men what we think that they should do in order to try and get past some of their preconceptions what is your advice to women who are in this situation? So I think you know for women I know that there has been a lot of pressure and society continues to connect women's sexuality with morality and judgment but somewhere owning our own sexuality and willing to have unapologetic sex or engaging in our sexuality unapologetically like saying you know it's okay I don't need to be weighed or judged by this morality or what society puts forward for me I think we have to break this barrier I would prefer that the barrier was broken by society and by men and others rather than by women but somewhere I think we have to do the hard work in it so if you're open if you're okay if we accept our sexuality then owning it becomes easier the fears become less and it's not easy because if the backlash you know if you're not going to get married by owning your sexuality I don't know as in that's an individual choice in some ways it's a tough call I'm not saying it's an easy one but I definitely think as women we need to stop judging other women and be okay with each other's sexuality and you know and questioning male friends or partners or something when they judge a woman's sexuality or have you know if your brother's criteria is I want a virgin's wife then and if you know he's had sex before then question the hypocrisy or you know question the family hypocrisy that's what I would say to women but in general I would say to men also do not give up on a relationship if it's a happy healthy compatible relationship you can work through this so don't give up a relationship you know just because there are some things that happened previously or before you can work through this you know funnily enough that's actually what the Kamasutra also says it says that if you have a great relationship if you have a lover who you really get on well with lovers good no what it actually says is good lovers are hard to find so don't be in a real hurry to sort of change people over because there's one thing there that you don't like learn to nurture that relationship cherish it I think that's very good advice so I think with everything that we've talked about today the things that we would really like you to take away from today's conversation is one this does not come under the heading of monogamy if somebody's had a relationship before they met you then it's not that they have cheated on you number two exploring your sexuality or having sex before you have before you are married is not a sin it's not something guilty it's not a bad thing to do if the other person has chosen to have consensual sex with somebody else if that is your criteria then it is something that you need to deal with you cannot put that pressure on the other person's head and as I was sharing that email that message with you last time Anitha when somebody this young girl wrote in and said is it a sin to kiss before I'm married because I really love God and I was thinking it's it was such a sweet naive innocent little question but it just does reflect what our society makes us believe that you know having kissed somebody before marriage is somehow in contradiction to your love for God so no exploring consensual sexuality is not a sin and don't break up a relationship just because you find that somebody else in that your other half has had a sexual encounter before marriage I think that it is difficult we all feel jealous somewhere inside us we all have our own emotions that we can't necessarily control but this is where you need to bring your logic and your reasoning and your understanding to the forefront and really consider what it is that's upsetting you and then talk it through and make it better have I left anything out Anitha no I think just you know these are things that can work through we need to I just feel like we need to understand that our reactions are based on the context we've been raised in sometimes they're not our beliefs you know sometimes you're totally happy or you don't actually believe that your wife should have been a virgin before marriage but because you've always heard it between friends men you know other family members movies and everything you feel like that should be a reaction so don't react processes through make sure that it's actually what you believe in before you know you impact your relationship that's extremely good advice so as always do comment like subscribe on the video if you have to send in your questions I am on info.seema.anand at gmail.com and Dr. Anvita Madan behel can be reached for consultations on Anvita Madan behel.com we'll see you next week see you next time bye