 So, good evening. Thank you for sticking around. How many of you are listening and listening to translation? How many people listening to translation? Put your hands up. I'm trying to figure out how slow to talk. I'll try to talk slowly. The translation is not ready yet. Good. Then I'll wait until they're ready. I'll tell you what. I'll do the part that you don't really need to know, which is who I am. Before I went to work for Intel, I worked for six years at Sun. While I was at Sun, I started a number of projects out of an office I ran called the open source program office. One of the projects was open office, which has turned out to be important in the desktop world. Yes, more like God. One of the projects was open office, which has turned out to be important in the desktop Linux world. There were other projects. One of them is the ongoing effort to try to make Java free, which just is taking forever. I'm working on it. Now at Intel, we're working on it. That's who I am. I'm also on the board of the open source initiative, which for some people in this audience makes me the enemy, hopefully fewer people than before. We're trying very hard to find connections between the free software world, software liberty world, and the open source world. In fact, we now have two board observers that come from the free software world, and we're trying to get as much connection as we can. We're also participating in the very long and difficult GPLv3 process. We're getting closer to translation. Hi. Good. We're speaking at Debbie and Day. This is part of our sponsorship. Intel is a sponsor of this conference for the second year. Along with that comes speaking. This is when that is. I really want to apologize for the corporate nature of this talk. When I speak for Intel, I have to use slides that Intel likes. I have two choices. I can write the talk a long time ahead of time and send it through marketing and legal and everybody can say yes, or I can pick a talk that someone else has already used and just change the words a little bit, and that's what this is. I'm going to be around for several days. If I say anything that's interesting to you, feel free to come and ask. That's why we're here to try to get into this community. I will say that when I came to Intel, one announcement regarding the translation. Yeah. Disculpe en que tenga que interrumpir. Nos habían dejado esto para canal uno. Pongan en el canal dos. Ahí sí funciona. I'm very sorry there. They got to the wrong channel. Go for channel two. That's what that is I think. All right. So when I came to Intel, there was a lot of work happening with the traditional open source vendors, meaning Red Hat, Noval. I think Intel was doing that partly because it's more comfortable for big companies to work with other big companies. But I noticed a customer interest in Debian. And so I started pushing Intel to look into Debian. And it's been kind of a push because it's much harder to look at working within a community than it is to work within a company. But we're getting there. And I think that's really excellent. So, all right, you guys already know this stuff. The numbers are kind of interesting. The sheer number of people that are really, really poor. And of course, we're in Mexico. Mexico is kind of a middle world country now. There's parts of Mexico that are very developed and other parts that are still very poor. I do most of my work in the developing world in the emerging market. And what I'm trying to do is help make better technology available. The group that I work in is mostly interested in trying to make good technology available for people who can't afford expensive computers. Because we believe that there ought to be parity between all the people that care to work in the technology world. Not just the rich people should be able to do that. So, the group that I joined had a conversation with big Intel and said, look, we're looking at these trends. We're noticing that there's a huge gap in income and it's getting bigger. We're noticing that in terms of devices, there's starting to be a lot of devices in the hands of the rich people, certainly, but also low income people. And especially handheld devices and small form factor devices. And we're noticing that this is a trend. And if we're really serious as a company about crossing the digital divide and helping more people have technology, then we have to look at these areas and we have to try to figure out how to help. One of the reasons that I joined Intel is because Intel doesn't make money directly on software. When I was at Sun, it was very difficult setting up programs because they always needed to make some revenue. And that desire to make some revenue made them do some things that weren't so free. But Intel is a company where they're positioned as long as people buy computers. It doesn't matter so much what software they're running. And so we can work in the ecosystem sort of without prejudice to one group or another. We can actually look at what the customers need and help them because we don't have to make friends with just one community or just one kind of software. So let's see, is this one of those ones that builds? It must be. There we go. These are the four areas that we decided to work in. So we have really focused efforts in education, in commerce, in social participation and in health. The healthcare one is sort of a new one, trying to get for Intel. Trying to get good, high quality healthcare devices and both consumer level devices and also high quality healthcare to put into hospitals and things, better technology. Because we're noticing that things have been eradicated in the rich countries or still killing people in the poor countries, which is problematic. In social participation, we actually build a fair number of boards to help our sales channels, right? So we sell boards directly to people in the developing world who put plastic around them and call them computers. We do a lot of that sale. And we're starting to find a real interest in machines that will help countries put more software in the hands of their populace. So community PCs, kiosks, very low cost PCs that put in the hands of individuals. Commerce, we're actually coming up with designs that help people set up small businesses that are technology related. So for instance, you'll see later, we have a box that we call the iCafe box. If you want to start an iCafe, which is an internet, how many of you have ever been in an iCafe? Does everybody know what that is? It's a place you go where they have a few machines that are on the internet and you pay a little bit of money to use the machines. And maybe they serve coffee, maybe it's comfortable there, maybe they have nice music. There are a lot of them in Europe and they're starting to be quite a few of them in the developing world. Because we created this box that you can buy as an individual and just plug it into an ISP and you've got a business, right? So that's the commerce area. And then in education, we have a bunch of initiatives. Very famously, we said we were going to give a billion dollars this year to Teach to the Future, which is a set of campaigns to educate teachers about how to use technology. And then we have additional devices that we've designed that will help with those efforts. But interestingly enough, they're not products that we sell directly. They're products that we teach countries how to make. So we've created a prototype and a specification. And we supply the widgets, the boards, but the country gets to make the computers and so that creates local wealth. So we're sort of starting to try to work in a way that's very friendly to free and open source software. Where we leave a lot more money at the local level, while we're also trying to help people learn a little bit. So this might be repeating what I said before, since this isn't really my slide, there's obviously three more of those. Basically, this says we're trying to give good tools to both teachers and students. This one says we're trying to find things that will increase jobs and increase access to markets in the developing world. This one says we're trying to make it easier for doctors to give good healthcare in places where people are far flung. And it might be very expensive to come into a town to talk to a specialist. We're trying to make that work a little bit better. And then we're coming up with things that help increase information sharing. And this is really interesting stuff, like community kiosks where they have information if you're interested as a person who can't afford to go on to secondary school or to higher education. You can go to your community kiosk in countries like the Philippines. And through a series of online tutorials, start to learn skills that you can turn into a job that will raise your standard of living without you having to necessarily be able to afford to go to university. So some of these programs are really interesting. They're almost always done in partnership with government. And sustainability is a big deal for us. We don't like to parachute stuff in. There's been a lot of famous efforts where technology was parachuted in and then maybe it didn't actually flourish because nobody stuck around to explain how to use it or it was mostly a greed driven thing. And so the motives were wrong or the solution didn't actually match what the people needed. We're really interested in trying to land sustainable efforts. Intel's a company that has a lot of money. We make a lot of money. And this is about us trying to give back some of that money in a corporate responsibility way, right? So this is the question we ask ourselves. If you believe that technology can actually make the world better, right? Then what do we have to do? Like what does Intel have to do? And what can the governments do? We spend a lot of time trying to convince people that they want to learn how to fish because the last 25 years of technology engagement has taught people to ask for fish, which isn't the same thing as learning how to fish. And so we try to look at programs that will do that. So this slide shows direct actions that my actual group has been involved in since I joined Intel, which has only been a year ago. So you'll see different countries that have come up with programs that we got involved in. Some of them, like this one is a Debian-based one. Everybody knows about Extremadura. They're very famous here. Some of them are moving to Debian, like this Thailand ICT effort started out on Fedora Core. But they have noticed that Fedora Core is not updating regularly. And so they want to move to Debian. And this one here is an example of the country created their own Linux. They partnered, there are two actually. There's one that's different language regions in China. And both of them are underwritten by the government. This is an effort to put a million new PCs in the hands of Chinese people, very low cost, using the Linux that they wrote. Let's see, this one, they're writing their own Linux for the first time. We hooked them up with these guys. So they're basing their Debian, even though Red Hat is very popular in India. They're noticing that for their national Linux, they might want to have slightly more ownership characteristics. This is the one where the community PCs that are teaching so much extra knowledge. We notice that little kids like to go with their parents to these centers, and they teach their parents and their grandparents how to use the computer, which is pretty cool, right? And then this one over here is also pretty famous. This one's Mandrieva based because Mandrieva was sort of further along at the time that they started that project. But what I'm seeing around the world is a lot of these efforts start out with what they think is going to be the easiest answer, which is a packaged Linux. And then they decide that they want to take more ownership, and they move over to Debian, or they move over to one of the Debian derivatives. And this is why I was pushing so hard for Intel to get interested in Debian, because we can't give good advice about this stuff if we don't know anything about it, right? This is a really, really corporate content slide. I have to apologize right away about this one. These are the things we do in a sort of mission, vision statement kind of way. The important part here is this platform of choice thing. So Intel wins no matter whose software ships, and if a customer really wants proprietary software, we have to help them. But increasingly we're finding our customers want open source software, and so that's why we've gotten involved in this. The group that I work in is kind of a maverick group. There aren't a lot of us compared to the number of people that work on this side. So we're definitely a maverick group, but we're very interesting to a lot of different people because we're trying to do things a little differently. A lot of us came to the group from outside of Intel, because we like the idea of having the resources that Intel has to try to get this right and get it available in the world in such a way that it can actually make a difference. So that's how and why we showed up. So here's some examples of some of the products. This one here is the iCafe one, the one that you just plug it in, and it becomes a business. It becomes an iCafe. It's got all the software inside of it to do the manageability around separate nodes that you set up in your business to do the billing and do all that stuff. It's really plug and play. It's really easy for people, and it's got this button on it, and it's that one right there. It's not a very big picture, but if you get stuck, you push this button, and somebody calls you and has a conversation about what's going on with your system and if it's not working because they're losing money. If they've got to push that button, that means they're losing money and they want to understand how to fix it. How many of you have ever been to India? Anybody? So in India, until very recently, if you wanted to use a phone to call home, to call wherever you live, Mexico, wherever you were from, you went to a little kiosk in the village and there'd be one phone there. It's a big phone. It wasn't a pay phone exactly. It just looked like a really big phone from home. It was yellow. It was called an STD phone. And there was a guy there with a book that filled out the transactions on that phone and he would rent you a sliver of time and he would negotiate the call for you. That was a business opportunity that the Indian telecom figured out and they sold hundreds of thousands of these phones and they're set up all over India in the slums, in the poorest parts, sometimes in the rich parts, they're everywhere. Everybody knows how to use them. And each one of them has an owner who charges a small tariff for the use of his instrument. This is that same idea but making the internet accessible to people. And so people who buy one of these can actually just set up a business. All they need is an enclosure and power and they're done. And all of these designs are things that are built not necessarily by us. We prototype them. We make the boards and then in some countries they just want us to ship them. So we do deals with fabs somewhere in the world and get them shipped. But in many countries they want to actually take over the manufacturing. This one is the PC that went into Beijing. This is the People's Learning PC. This one over here which I already talked about, right? This is a tablet PC which I actually don't know very much about. I haven't seen them push this one very much. And I think it's because we have some other ideas coming that are probably a better fit than this one. I think this was an early design. But this one here, this is the community PC. This thing is built to run on a car battery. It's got a really powerful storage battery in it so that if there's disconnectivity in terms of power, it doesn't destroy itself. You know, you can go and turn it down gracefully. It has its own UPS basically. It has, it's ruggedized so that it can live in really wet places and really dry places and really hot places and really cold places. All of the components that are inside of it are standard. So it's a really interesting idea and these are being purchased and put in places where they just put one PC in a village and everybody shares. And what we're looking at now is from looking at what Kinopix has done. Ways to share configuration files, you know, so you give everybody a thumb drive and have them own that. And when they jack that into this thing, they get their configuration and their stored files. So we're trying to come up with scenarios that work in these far-filling regions where there's maybe a headman that runs the village and everybody else, you know, is going to spend time on this sort of at his decision or his whim. I don't like to read my slides so hopefully if you guys have questions, you'll ask. Oh, I should say this last one. We try to create platforms that will make service models available. You guys know that part of why free software is important is because you can create local wealth, right? Very few places have actually done that successfully yet, which is interesting because certainly the capability is there. We know that from Extremadura. But we're trying to find models that help people understand how they can do that because the other side, the proprietary side, has some very good stories they tell about how to create service models, how to, you know, you have to boil it down to brass tacks for people. If you buy one of these, you can expect to make this much money, right? And by the way, part of why it's so low cost is because the software that's running on it doesn't cost as much. So that people start to understand that kind of thing. So here's some of the other programs that we work on. So we spend a lot of time on policy, as I said, I'm working on GPLv3, working at OSI, working with individual governments to help them understand the best ways to implement policy. We spend a fair amount of time doing these deployments like those ones I showed you on that slide that had the list. Part of that is learning about deployments and getting it right so that we can create recipes that explain it to people. We don't really want to be in the business of deploying software per se. We want to ship chips, but we want to do enabling work with software that makes more people have technology. We'd like them to do it themselves. That's why we work on the local ecosystem stuff. This isn't about the Debian ecosystem. This is local within a region. Do they have people who can do support? Do they have people who can fix boxes if they need to be fixed? Those kinds of nuts and bolts things. Do they have training modules? Do they have a strategy for teaching people how to use the thing? And then there's a solution center idea. A lot of big companies have gotten involved in solution centers. I honestly still haven't seen a solution center that I personally think is well run, not by Intel, not by anybody. I'd like to change that. I'd like to see that get better. They tend to sell product rather than imparting knowledge. One of the reasons I like conferences like Debconf is because you guys focus on content instead of selling. As you know, Linux World is sort of the other side of that coin. In the world of big companies, it's hard to explain that difference. I mean, it's even hard to explain to a big company why they should let their employees travel to a place that nobody can find on the map where the directions are pretty strange, right? Like coming here was. And yet, it's so rewarding when you actually come, we're trying to get them to see that it could be a good partnership. It doesn't have to just be the way that it was when all software was produced and somewhere in Washington state, right? And then we also write up what we learn and we share it freely. So we've got a lot of information on our websites that any country can use because again, we don't really have direct customers. So we're happy to share information. This picture over here is a government forum. We run these all year long. We invite different countries that are interested in open source solutions to talk to each other. That's how the folks in India met the folks from Extremadura, they met them at our little workshop that we had, and then we get out of the way because we like them to talk to each other and we don't want to be in the middle. I'm not sure why this one wasn't on the other slide because again, these aren't my slides, but this is a Linux center in Guangdong province in China that's a learning center and these are people learning about Linux. We actually provide certifications through this center. Now, we didn't create the certifications. They, the Guangdong Linux center created them. Red Hat also certifies, I don't know, does Debian certify for end users or for CIS admins or for anything like that? That's, in a lot of the world, people can only justify the time if they're gonna get a certificate. Even if the certificate just means they sat in the room for the required number of hours, it might be an interesting thing to think about whether you guys should come up with some kind of certification. You don't even have to charge for it, for it to be important. So, how many of you know that Intel spends a lot of money in the free and open source world supporting the ecosystem? Probably nobody, right? So, OSDL was started by Intel. Intel has given money to all of these organizations and we also show up with developers. There are more Linux kernel developers working on kernel.org right now that work for Intel than any other single entity. But we don't talk about it a lot because Intel's a little shy about talking about that stuff. And it's a little frustrating for some of us that work on this stuff. We'd like to have a little more reputation for that. Over time I think it's nice to work for a company that wants to walk before they talk as long as they talk at some point. But anyway, we're involved in all of that. And more recently, we got involved in Debian. We came to Debian Conf last year and we had a dinner where we met a lot of the leaders of the Debian community and we started talking about using Debian as another vendor, well, vendor's the wrong word, another community that produces a Linux that the end customers of our work are starting to want to use. So in the ecosystem area, we actually try to play with everybody and we try to play pretty equally with everybody. Sometimes you might see us do deals where we look like we're working more with one group than another, but we really are genuinely trying to have engagements with everybody because we think that the ecosystem only grows if there's diversity. We're not into single sourcing. We also provide drivers, is Mark here? I think I saw you. No, he's just outside the door. How many of you know Mark who works for Intel on Debian drivers? He's got red shorts on today. Oh, there you are. Hi Mark, stand up and say hi. He's our driver dude. And he works pretty hard to make sure that Debian releases are represented well in the driver packages that we put together for our special chip set. We fund this conference or co-fund it, we're one of the sponsors and we want to continue to do that. We also donate a fair amount of equipment to Debian org to make sure that you guys can keep working. And then in the solution space, we're working on solutions in education, in small business and in government. Now remember I told you, we have to work on both proprietary and the open side of things. In all three of these, we have proprietary working stacks. In most of them, we also have open stacks. And some of them were waiting for deployments to decide which Linux to put in there finally. We have it working on A Linux, which Linux are we gonna put in there finally? Or are we gonna support three or four? We'd rather not do that. We'd rather have the customer support themselves. We don't want them really looking to us for support because again, we don't provide software, we just enable with software. So does everybody understand all of this? Okay. I spent a fair amount of time with the UN these days, which is kind of cool. It also takes forever. Everything at the UN takes forever. But I went to the WSIS meeting, the big meeting in Tunisia and Kofi Annan was there. They spent a lot of time talking about the future of technology. They're gonna run off now and write a declaration of human rights with respect to technology. And then they'll try to get all the member nations in the UN to sign. He's saying very clearly, we have a moment here. We have an opportunity. And what I like about this quote is we must do so not passively. The old way of acquiring software where you just identify a vendor and give them money was relatively passive compared to the engagement that you have to do to be part of the Debian community. It's a real shift for the traditional companies to think in that new paradigm. HP, I know you guys all know, has done a lot of work in this area to understand how to show up in the Debian community. So I'm hoping that we can make Intel in your mind similar to HP in terms of you thinking of us as people that are working with you to do good things for the world and in a friendly way. It's gonna take some, there'll be some bumps along the way because not everybody understands. But I think he understands that participation is ownership and increasingly we're seeing customers who believe that as well. And so that's why we think Debian's important in this ecosystem. So that's the end of my prepared talk because there's nothing worse than a corporate talk. And I'm happy to take questions for a little while if you guys have any questions. Yeah, there's one. Are we sharing? Oh no, there's one there, close to you. No, I speak English. Oh, so I have to listen, okay. I have a ThinkPad IBM T42 that in my country it's necessary to work for a year to buy one of these. Intel, the solution that I tried for its Lambda network is a piece of binary that I have to add inside the kernel. What are the things that are needed to change that? Thank you, so did everybody understand this question? Okay, good. There are a lot of practices at Intel that I believe need to change. There are a number of pieces of software that we ship in binary form or with restrictive licenses because we haven't thought through why we want to do them a different way. And I think that the wireless drivers are one of those sets that need some help. So some of the ways that I could think that Intel might decide to make changes, they might build a community around contributions of problems that you found, where they're a little more proactive and responsive to problems that are occurring. They might eventually figure out that they can make the wireless drivers publicly documented, which is what you and I would like to see happen. This is a huge company that's starting at the very beginning of trying to do an engagement with free and open software. They started looking at the ecosystem, OSDL. Do you trust OSDL? Do you think they're your friends? They're its big companies, right? Getting them all the way down to know little individual developers working in a community need access to, that's a foreign concept for them right now. We're working on it. So if you send me your story, you can send it in Spanish, it's okay. I'm collecting stories now because there's a group at Intel that's looking at how to attract the belief in the minds of developers that they're changing. And that's a perfect story to take to them to say, look, here's a guy that's exactly what we're talking about. So would you do that for me? Would you send me your story? I'm sorry I don't have a better immediate answer, but all I can tell you is we are trying to fix it and we need to hear from you guys, okay? Thank you. Yeah, anybody else? Enrico? No, he's gonna talk. Are you gonna tell him Spanish or English? No, we don't have any questions. It's been broadcast somewhere, I guess, so. He's English. English? Yeah, the other half translation is a little USA. Okay. You said at the beginning of your talk that Intel is starting to work, to try to interact with Debian and it's a kind of novelty because it's always been interacting with companies, which is very interesting and that prompts me to ask if you can see already or coming some benefit for Intel with coming from starting to relate with non-companies like learning new ways of doing things or learning how to support not only something that comes with a phone call from Mr. Big Guy in a marketing something, learning to be more aware of how the technology is used and all sort of things. I mean, that could have, I could see potential for a growing of Intel as like a company that supports a market rather than a group of companies, but I was wondering if there is something that can actually be seen already or some nice stories to tell someone realizing something. Sure, so there is actually a story about that. There's a woman at Intel named Genevieve Bell who is actually a social anthropologist, she's an ethnographer, and she came to Intel from Stanford and said, I think you need ethnographers. I think you need people to go into the field and see how your technology is actually being used and you need to think about that and you need to start working on practices that support actual use patterns. And at about the same time, Intel decided that they were gonna switch from being a chip company to being a platform company. What that means is they've identified a few thrusts that they want to be involved in, like digital health or digital home. And that means for the first time, they're gonna talk to end consumers as providers of technology, which changes the game very significantly for them. I would say, looking at Intel and I'm an Intel employee, but I'm relatively new and I definitely don't have the tattoo, right? I would say that Intel is learning or thinking about learning about the next 20 years. They've gone a long way with one or two really strong partners, but they're noticing that single sourcing isn't maybe such a good idea all the time. They've gone a long way with only talking to technologists and technology companies because that's who they were providing to. And they're noticing that they're getting much more involved in engagement directly on the ground. And I think that they're morphing, I think they have to. Now, how long will it take? Will they get it right? That's hard to say. 100,000 employees takes a long time to change. But the fact that Genevieve keeps getting promotions and has convinced the company, there's a whole army of social anthropologists now in the group that designed those devices like the iCafe device, there's a whole group of people that go and live locally and understand what the issues are and what would be desirable and actually listen before they come up with the product. This is all new. What Intel used to do was sit in an ivory tower and create the fastest chips they could. And they're definitely changing how they think about product definition and even what the products may be. So it's kind of an exciting time to be at Intel. Now, famously, they're also thinking about competition for the first time in a long time. I think it's a very positive thing because you have an opportunity, when you realize you have to change the game, people like me have an opportunity to say, okay, well, here's about 20 things we could do differently. And maybe two or three of them will stick. I had good luck with that at Sun. I got Sun to do a lot of changing. And when Simon Phipps comes here tomorrow, I think you guys should ask him the same question. How is this changing, Sun, what's different now? I see Intel heading towards interesting new waters, but it's a big boat, so it's gonna take a while to get there. Yeah, does that help? Anybody else? I'm between you and the Margaritas. You in the, you in the Cerveza, right? Yeah, in the back. Hola, buenas tardes, me parece muy interesante. Wait a minute, I can't hear the question. I can parse about, I grew up in LA, so I get about 50% of it by osmosis, I don't know what to say. A mío personal me resulta muy interesante el interés de compañías como Intel en lo que es el desarrollo software libre y puedo entender cuáles son los beneficios que compañías como Intel encuentran en apoyar el software libre. Pero quisiera preguntarte, tú como parte de una compañía que está en la industria hardware, si ustedes ven en algún momento que se fuera desarrollado el movimiento hardware libre o algo similar, que permitiera también un desarrollo del otro lado de lo que son los equipos en la parte de hardware. I think you're probably asking about chips. And I'm happy to talk about chips, but let me first talk about hardware in general. Are you aware, whoop, there, that there's currently no standardization in the components of laptops? One of the reasons they're so expensive is because you can't double source. You can't say, I need this size of battery and there are two people that make them and I'm gonna play them off of each other for the best price. So one of the things that Intel has done in the last two years is work very hard to standardize the components together with a consortium. So that's the beginning of a kind of freedom in hardware production, right? That happened in the big boxes a while ago, but nobody really buys desktop anymore. At least I don't think they do. But you're asking about chips and I do understand what you're asking. You're saying that chip designs are secret. Everybody's chip designs are secret. Yours are, AMDs are, is it ever gonna change? Earlier this year, Sun open sourced the verilogs for their Niagara chip. That's the chip with no floating point. That's a big deal because what they're saying is we would like to see other manufacturers start making these chips, right? They're also saying other manufacturers who already have fabs, who already have practice, who already know how to use a verilog, who already have all that background, right? Right now in the developing world, there are no modern chip fabs in China, in India. That we just, Intel just put a test facility in Vietnam, which is the first time one of those has happened in a while. Years and years ago we put one in Israel and then eventually we put a bunch of fabs in Israel. Israel was at the time a developing nation. It's sort of not anymore. It's a tough choice for Intel where to put these things because they have to get assurances that there isn't gonna be trade secret leakage because it costs billions of dollars to create a fab. Now, I have the luxury of thinking outside the box of Intel. I don't only work for Intel. I also work for free and open source. I think there's a good chance that at some point in the future there will be mobile fab technology that makes it cheaper to create a fab and at that point the pressure for good verilog descriptions is gonna become very heavy because companies like Sun are doing desperation plays like the Niagara verilogs. So I see that process happening. However, because it's right now so expensive to create the facilities, it'll probably be a while before we see sort of mass availability of good chip designs under licenses that we like, right? And I think that's just reality. No company gives away software in free and open source unless they see a market advantage in doing so. And that's gonna happen in hardware as well. So you'll see some of the underdog companies continuing to try to push that envelope and the one sitting on top trying to resist. And that'll, you know, it's the role of people like me to try to push some of those big dogs faster than they wanna go maybe, but they need to go faster, they just don't see it yet. When I worked for Sun, I had an analyst tell me that they didn't want Solaris to be open sourced until the day that it had no more value as a proprietary piece of software and then they wanted it to switch automatically like in a single day because they wanted that cash cow to keep giving cash until the last possible second and then they wanted to see it flip. That's not really practical for really big companies and I think one of the things we're gonna see in the next 10 years is companies have to learn how to be quicker in those kinds of transitions. So I think it'll be very, the question you're raising it'll be interesting to see what happens. Intel of course feels that there's a very strong and clear bright line difference between software IP which they think should be more broadly shared and hardware IP which they think is closer to the way the patent system was designed or closer to mechanical descriptions and so they still think that that system works pretty well and I work for them so I'm not supposed to kick them in the knees. I think that it's gonna be a matter of timing to see if they can figure out how to switch. Yeah? Emiko, you already asked a question. Anybody else needs one first? Okay, this one I have to listen to. Well, first of all, you told us about the way that Intel is trying to interact with the Debian community. I want to ask you, as a community or as a community of developers in general, of free software, how can we start interacting with Intel? Because you presented yourself to a person who works with Intel chips and here we are much more and there are so many people who would be willing to do it. Only, well, for the things that motivate us to be free software, we would be willing to do it so that it works correctly on your Wallet board so that it works correctly on my video board. So what is the position that we as developers, as a free software community, have to adopt to be able to start working with Intel to start improving those black dots that still exist in what is the hardware and what is the support that we have. One of the problems that I've been trying to think about is the driver problem. You guys are well aware of the driver problem. What Intel does now is we release something called the Quick Start Kit that is a package of drivers that are for each new chipset that are the most popular drivers or the ones that we get the most demand for. I don't want to announce what we're working on, but we're working towards another step in the evolution of that effort to try to make the drivers more available that includes some 600 pound gorilla pressure on the other vendors to do a better job of making certain drivers available. At the point that that starts to happen, I would like to see a community develop around those drivers, testing them and tweaking them because what will probably happen is the vendors will, assuming we can get them to, the vendors will release drivers like we do and like HP does and they won't be perfect and there'll need to be some testing, some changing, some fixing, and I'd like to see a system develop where developers take a hold of those things, especially the ones they actually need and where they have to tweak them, they're able to report those tweaks back into the system. That's what I'm hoping we arrive at, but there's a middle piece I can't really disclose right now because it's not quite ready yet. Just know I'm working on something because my main job or as I see my job, I look for places in the whole ecosystem from the point of view of a customer in the developing market, I look at places in the ecosystem where there are holes and I'm trying to come up with solutions, at least a solution to each of those holes to see if those solutions work and I'm always thinking about Debian as a potential partner in that stuff because I personally think Debian's really important to Intel. I would say if you looked at the ranking of people who believe that, there are three or four of us that really believe it strongly, you're gonna see us here. There are another, we each know three or four people who think it's important but they're not quite sure where it fits yet and then there's a whole bunch of people who think that working directly with a community is going to be too much of an engagement. So one of the things we need to work on is how to work with the Debian community in such a way that it isn't overwhelming for Intel because I know it sounds crazy given how much bigger Intel is than you individually but if you think, when I worked at Sun, they used to say, okay, there are so many Java users, a few million Java users. If each of them just sends one question to us, we're gonna have to stop working on Java because we're gonna be spending all of our time answering those questions. So one of the things I have to work out is how to scale so that you guys can contribute without undermining the effort that Intel's got going because they won't know what to do with that. So it's a partnership problem but I think that driver area is gonna be a very interesting thing when I get it done. Hopefully before NextDebcon for you guys will know more about that and we'll all go, oh yeah, that must have been what she was talking about and I really apologize, I can't tell you more now they don't quite have it lined up yet and I don't wanna see a story about it before it's done. So, okay. You guys aren't gonna ask why I can't do my own registration at Debcon, right? No, actually not. I wanted to ask, where do you see Debian in the greater Linux ecosystem? Yeah. I think Debian can effectively put pressure on the big distros whereas when I say big, Debian's bigger than any other distro in some important ways. More people are using it, more people have localized it. I mean, there's lots of ways that Debian is huge compared to all the other Linux's but I don't think we would be seeing SUSE Linux and Fedora Core. Fedora Core's been there a long time but they weren't actually updating it very often until recently I noticed. They're starting to kinda get it back together again and that's partially because SUSE Linux happened but SUSE Linux happened partially because of you guys, right? Some of the ecosystem gap things that I'm looking at involve margins that are lower than for things like support escalation than the big vendors currently want to allow so there's some price pressure that you guys put on things and the fact that you're looking at a lowest common denominator Linux that works well across broad usage patterns, I'm telling you, I see it in the developing world. These countries are going, we wanna do Debian because we can own that as much as anybody in the Debian community owns it. It's not the same as working with a distro that's for profit. So I think you guys actually have a very strong position. It would behoove the Debian community to try to figure out and I know there are some voices in Debian that are trying to figure out how to create a face to companies like HP and Intel and hopefully some of the other companies that makes it a little easier for them to understand how to engage. I think that's worth doing. Meeting the traditional model closer to the middle I think would be a good thing for you guys to do but otherwise just being yourselves and getting picked up the way that you're getting picked up is huge. Focusing on shipping on time and making sure that when you ship things are really solid and that the features you said you were gonna deliver are actually in there. That's huge. To the extent that you continue to evolve your support for things like accessibility, which is a huge issue in Massachusetts when they talked about going to open document format, right? Of all the issues that proprietary software could have picked to push on, they picked accessibility. Well, lucky for Linux, the accessibility modules in GNOME are some of the best in the world. I mean, you can't pay for software as good as that stuff and it's worth hooking up to it a little bit better. I know the GNOME community has a certain pure, I mean, sorry, the Debian community has a certain licensing purity rigor and I don't think that's a bad thing. So, for instance, you guys pushed back on GPLv3. I think that was very positive for all the Linuxies because if you guys are pushing, none of the big vendors wanna be the one that says, hey Richard, we don't think you got it down right but if you guys do it then he's gotta listen. So, there's lots of things you can do to make the overall ecosystem better. Andreas, where'd you go? Was that enough? Okay, you and I can talk anytime. Can I ask us to thank my translator very much? Thank you. And I have to say, the one other thing that Debian has that nobody else has is a very strong women's community. Debian women rocks. It's better than any other women's community and any other free or open software that I have seen, including Linux tricks, which is interesting but Debian women is about actually attacking real problems at a baseline level. And so, where I'm mostly looking at guys here, the great thing about Debian women is you can all be Debian women too. So, that's another great thing about Debian. Thank you. I should say I was gonna run Debian on this new Intel dual core Mac but nobody could help me do it yet. So, fix that, okay?