 Well, nice to see so many people here. Last time at the front, I'm not really, I'm just going to talk in the microphone really, not really actually give a presentation of any description. So welcome to the BSP Meetings Boff. So I think it might be useful at first to get a sort of sense of who's here, like who is arranging the boff in the past, who's thinking of doing one, or what about attendees and things like that. So who's been to a BSP or a boff, if you can put your hands up, that'd be, yeah. Yeah, it's cool, almost all. Who would like to go to one? I guess everyone, it kind of makes sense, obviously. And, oh, could someone actually be setting up a gobby thing, a dock whilst we're doing this initial stuff? Someone, does someone know the gobby, blah, or whatever we're using these days? Ah, just set that rolling while we're chatting. Yeah, so who would like to arrange a boff, a BSP meeting? It's not true. I think you are, though, right? Okay, so the other people, what were they thinking of getting from this? Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, so a couple of things. I was speaking to Avika the other day that we're developing a lot of contacts in India, and they might be interested in organising gatherings, maybe people from other places might want to visit them when they do that. So maybe we could talk about that for a few minutes. And there's another event I've been invited to a hackathon for girls that they're organising in Kosovo. And so just looking for feedback that I can give to those people to help them run their event. So there are lots of these other things where Debian can support people with events in different ways. And I just wanted to see if any of these things might, if people might have ideas for them or anything else that we can do. All right, okay, cool. Anyone else? I've been to several of these pieces. Most of them were traditional ones. At least I have no better term for that. Like you go there, you expect people to join and find bugs and prepare packages. And as a DD, you just have to overlook this. I mean, double check this and upload. Like you're just a random automated signer or something. And it was great to see new people join and then apply for NAM and DD and whatever. But I went to not really a BSP in Paris in May, which was a bit more than a BSP. I mean, there were many people joining like, oh, how can I do something for Debian? I don't know anything about bugs. Maybe I do some graphic stuff and so on. And maybe it would be interesting to have BSP have some track to help people help Debian in some way that are not only squashing bugs, especially when we are late in the release cycles. The RC bugs are just crazy hard. So it was possible to ask people, what do you want to work on like Python and teach them about the dashboards thing and then help them understand how to interact with the BTS and so on. But sometimes they would only look at packaging a new version, which is not really bug squashing, but still helping maintainers. So squashing bugs is good, but maybe this could be a bit more generic in a way to help the distribution and not only squashing bugs with heavy hammers. Yeah, I mean, I guess being flexible to who shows up, right? I mean, that just kind of makes sense. Hopefully people will do that. Do you think the name is putting people off because it's bug squashing or? I guess the acronym is a bit mysterious for newcomers because BSP, so many TLA, and you see what I mean. So maybe we should have something more explicit and all welcoming, I guess. I didn't think about anything before coming here. So how to help Debian? It's a bit long, but it's a bit more explicit than BSP, so. Yeah, we wouldn't have to come up with a name right now, but yeah, because there are clearly some people. This is the one at the Mozilla offices, right? Exactly. What was the attendance there? It's pretty high, wasn't it? I don't have the numbers, and I guess the report is coming in a bit late for whatever reason, but there were many people there and so many different skill sets and questions. Like some attendants wanted to have some packaging 101 training session because they didn't know how this worked and what's the package build package and S build and S route and whatever. So, and some people were coming because sponsored by work to spend a day or two on this or whatever. And they were like, oh, I know already all this stuff and I can just hack in my corner and that's fine. But I guess compared to traditional BSP, that we need to find more people and with extended flexibility as far as question and teaching goes because you need to explain a lot of things. And if you're tagged as the guy who knows the installer, you get to install and debug the installer when training session and that doesn't scale. So I guess we would need more people than traditional BSP where basically one DD can upload all the things. So, but that's really interesting on a social level because we are not all hackers and we need to share to get more blood into the project. I mean, what I would do if I sort of turned up and there were a whole bunch, there were enough people to warrant some sort of sort of packaging tutorial or something, I would perhaps, I don't know, go through the DebComp slide archives and just find some packaging tutorial there. Yeah, true. But organizing some things in advance, working out who's gonna be there, what they're gonna, I guess on the wiki pages for all these things, like I'm thinking of turning up what am I thinking of doing and for someone that could be some obscure RC bug that only they can fix because it's super technical, but it could be I would like to package and then in advance you will perhaps know that, oh, there's two or three people who are newbies. Anyone wanna? I seem to remember part of it was also focused on usability testing and we had maybe tails people around. So registering on the wiki and being anonymous and so on wasn't exactly a good match, but on the general case I guess so you just have to say in advance, I'm interested in this or that topic, so you make sure that there are people to teach you that. And or at least people who've been warned that there might be a, cool. I mean, I guess it's just a question of expectations for each different event because if you do, on the one hand if you want to kind of have a nice successful event and attract new people and so on, but clearly if you say have a weekend event you could easily spend it if you wanted doing tutorials on packaging and also things about how to use the BTS and interacting with other people in debut and so on, which could be useful long term, but it's not necessarily what organizers of these events sometimes think of when they say, let's have a bug squashing party. So it's difficult to say. I mean, what's more useful, but there's two different types of event at least there. There's no reason to run them independently. Yeah. Sure, but again, you just need it's, I think sometimes people in the project think, oh, let's have a BTS, have a BSP and imagine they're going to get 15-hacking-hacking, well, 15 hours or 15 people squashing thousands of bugs and they haven't necessarily thought that they might, even though they try often to attract external people, they haven't thought about the implications of that necessarily. One question I'd like to ask anyone who's run a BSP or been to one is where they have failed or like been unsuccessful, so all things that definitely haven't worked. So if anyone can, because they've always been successful, unfortunately, Sage. Mostly. Yeah. The trick for me for having a good BSP is just making sure you announce it in plenty of time, encourages many people to turn up as you can. None of this is rocket science. And to be honest, it helps for me, I'll admit it makes it really easy that we've got a very active community already in the UK. There's a bunch of folks who will just turn up when you organize a BSP and you can expect them now and every time. I do wonder how much harder it is for other people when they don't have that. I don't know if anybody wants to, has anybody struggled to get people to turn up to a BSP? Certainly been at some event in another country in Europe where they just had a couple of people who organized it and basically didn't really get many others, which was, it doesn't necessarily cause a problem, but yeah. Last BSP that I went to in motion Gladbach, from my point of view, I went without too many expectations. I wanted to work on something because it was two months before release. So on the first day I was pairing with some guys and we were working on some crazy package. On the second day, basically I didn't have much to do. So I was a little bit bored. I tried to find something but there was not many bugs to work on from the beginner point of view. So basically from my point of view, it was not really successful. So to have more wider view on this, it would be good for organizers to have some FEMA or some. Some what, right? As a theme or some list of proposed bugs, list of some, I don't know, some proposals or at least in the beginning to, okay, we have those people who are experts in this or this or who want to work on something and then we could, I don't know, pair on something because otherwise it will be, okay, if you know something, then you start working on it and it doesn't matter if you are on book's question party or not. Yeah. And go back to slightly what Kibi was saying where it gets harder and harder as the freeze. Yeah. And if you're looking through this list and you look at a bug and it's got like 25,000 replies to it and you just know that your 20 minutes that you've got left of that day is just not going to be that helpful. No, I think that can be a problem for people. We encourage people to have BSPs as we get closer and closer to the release but for people who are not already working on some particular piece of software or aren't familiar with it, it gets harder and harder for them to actually do much useful, so. Of course we want help, but it's also, I think it can be a bit demotivating for people who go to their first BSP as they're kind of, I want to get involved with Debian and then see this list of bugs that they have no real chance of fighting. Yeah. To have some tasks for them, I mean. Ideally, but again, it's hard to say that you should make that responsibility of organizers to do because it's a lot of work to find tasks for new people to do. There's obviously much more interesting for the new people if they can have a real task that's going to be useful, but it's hard to look at those. It normally actually means someone needs to basically have done the work already, but then just leave a description of it rather than upload their change or something. Yeah, which is a bit, yeah, it's hard. Okay, just one comment on that. There was a discussion recently, which it wasn't so recently, I think it might have been a year or two ago about putting tags in the BTS on issues that might be easy for newcomers, things that applicants for GSOP could do those bugs or whatever. They might not be released critical bugs either, but they're still useful for someone who's building a package for the first time. So I'm not sure if that's progressed if anyone's tried tagging the bugs. I seem to recall that, but I don't know the current status. Yes, there are a lot of bugs in the BTS tag newcomer, but not everybody is using them. Maybe it's a good plan to actually publicize that more, make it more visible. I mean, when I run BSPs, yes, it can be difficult to find things for non-DDs, just local interested people to get involved with. Yeah, it's hard. And actually, yeah, so coming up with this pre-prepared list like that would help a lot. I mean, what we've had recently is picking an example, Andy, is a non-uploading DD, has learned a lot about packaging and whatever at a BSP by digging through looking for licensing problems. So I've helped him with a bit of scripting to pick packages apart looking for problems in fonts, for example. And actually, he's learned quite a lot from that, and it's something that he's carried on with in his dogged determination to get to a problem that actually most packages would want to waveform because, oh, it's a licensing problem, it's hard. Yeah. But that's also, I mean, there is a more general thing there that, although often, again, we're having a BSP towards the release, trying to reduce numbers of bugs, and we're thinking in that mindset for new people, it can actually be easier to get going by doing what's essentially QA work to create bugs. Yeah. And more than just trying to install, because if someone turns up, like, oh, there's no bugs for you to actually fix at this bug-swatching party, you wanna just try installing, testing. I mean, that could come across a little patronizing, maybe, or, I mean, it's pretty valuable. It depends what level, but I mean, there are, I think often is the people involved in the project don't necessarily get around to filing bugs on little annoyances, so actually, people who are new and not so familiar with the quirks of things might be better at getting doing that. That's true. That's true. Just a couple of other things that could be helpful is, I mean, for most packages, we can probably work out what programming language is involved if it's a Java package, a Python package. So you'd probably end up with hundreds or thousands of bugs against each programming language, but at least for someone who already knows Java, if we can cut down what they're looking at to a list of, say, 100 or 200 Java bugs, that they can start to get their head around that instead of seeing that there are like 100,000 open bugs in the BTS. They can see there are maybe 100 Java bugs that might be relevant to them, that might be a useful exercise for them. Another thing that they might wanna focus on is upstream bugs. So people who have no packaging experience, but they're good with Java, they might be happy to just go and put a pull request into GitHub and get it fixed there, and that will trickle down to the package in the future. Yeah, following up on your first idea of finding bugs for specific languages, is DevTags still alive? Because that's one of the things that DevTags was doing, and it would be quite easy to enhance the UDD bug search to filter based on DevTags, and that would be a way to get a list of bugs for a specific language. Awkward silence. I had another topic I was gonna raise, but if people wanna continue with the BSP thing, I don't want to interrupt. We could always come back. Okay, so one of the other things I've been discussing in a few places recently is using iCalendar, to gather data about different events in different communities, not just in Debian, but to publish them in iCalendar files, and to try and aggregate that and search on that. I know there are some people who they want to go to events. They want to meet people for whatever reason, for their career, for learning, and they want to be able to search for events, preferably with a free software theme as well. Some of them are looking more generically at anything that's IT related or anything Java. There are alternatives out there like Meetup, which is some people are happy using that. Other people are not so keen on Meetup being a proprietary solution. There's a bit like Facebook, and they have usage fees as well, so it would be interesting to build an alternative to that. I think you could sort of aggregate iCalendar feeds from different sources in much the same way that the planet system aggregates RSS feeds. So if we were getting different organizations publishing their events, even if they've only got two or three of them each year, and we could pull those in and help people search, then that could also provide opportunities for people to meet. So we can say, oh, some Debian people will be at this other event, and you can meet them there and get your key signed. So there are lots of opportunities in that. So tomorrow morning at 10, I've put in a buff discussion if people want to talk about Debian local groups and what that might mean, and one way of instantiation of that is I think could be a better way of searching for events that are near to people and so on. And again, we do advertise this in lots of ways at the moment, but I think it's not, maybe we can improve things there. That's true, because I was immediately thinking I used the LWN calendar for that, but that's kind of niche and won't have like misc pub meetups, right? Because they clearly some sort of limit. I mean, I've seen Debbie and BSPs on the LWN calendar. I think the Paris one was, for example, about four developers meeting at a train station. For all people welcome to come along, of course. That obviously wouldn't go on there. But it's true, people do meet, even apart from any formalized groups, people do often meet just in a pub for a few developers say when they might be happy for some newcomer to come along, but it's at the moment a bit tricky to really advertise that it's kind of overkill to put out a Debbie announcement that three people are gonna be in a bar. And the announcement doesn't really reach the new person either, because the new person might not be on the mailing list, but they go looking, for some reason, they're looking for something. And if we can make it, if we can put it there so that they'll stumble across it, either on a website or whatever else. In Switzerland, the Linux user groups run a thing that aggregates a few different iCalendar feeds. So that's fritermin.ch. So that's much more simple because they all fit on a single HTML calendar. No, and in Edinburgh there's, well, and some other places, there's a tech calendar or something which is not only free software type things, but again, people follow to see lots of different events, but generally in the world it's not really available, yeah. It's partly served by the events page on the wiki, right? Yes, and on the actual website, there is an events page as well, or at least used to be. Oh, right, okay. Maybe it's been killed by now. I know it never was. Sorry, it's on video, is it, but yeah. Another thing, again, I don't want to go too much onto what I hope people can discuss tomorrow, but one thing that applies generally for BSPs and any kind of debut meeting is that I think a lot of, if we want to attract people, it's also you need some kind of more than just one-off things because a lot of people, if they see one event happening in their area, they might, if they're keen, they might come along, but a lot of people, it's kind of when there's the second or third event and they think, oh really, I should get round to going. So if you have some kind of... Well, one immediate question is, are there any properly regular Debian events? Like I said, not, I mean, there are obviously ones every year, but I can't think of any that are every three months. The cheese and wine party happens every year? Yeah, but that's every year. Are there ones with that? Yeah, Debian Zurich is the first Tuesday of the month in the pub by the main station. Such things do exist as the answer, but not, yeah. Sometimes there's only one developer there. It's often users as well, so there's always a meeting, even at Christmas or in the summer. There are always a few people come to that meeting. Because I think you're right, that the regularity is very important. I mean, I think the ideal is something like the same, again, someone who is gonna make sure they're in the bar every month, but even if it's not a fixed date, just the fact that it's, if things happen every six months or even every year in the same city, whatever, people who are around the area will more likely to eventually notice it, even if they missed this year as one, even if it's only annual, if they missed this year as barbecue, then they think, oh, maybe I should go to next year's barbecue, whatever it is. Exactly, in fact, that's a really interesting point, because someone will say, you know, what's happening in London or whatever, and I can say, oh yeah, there's this thing, or if someone says they're gonna be in the UK in August, I'll be like, oh yeah, there's this regular thing going on in the barbecue. So having those, rather than just a one-off, there could be a random BSP. Maybe we could learn this from hacker spaces or hacker communities. I know that for 2600, which is hacker home, phone-freaking community, they meet in many cities, mostly in US, but even in Tel-Aviv, for example, every first Friday or Saturday of the month, hacker spaces, for example, they also meet regularly, and you can go to web page and see. And many people who go to different cities are looking for those pages to see if there is such group and such meeting in and is at a given time. For the BSP kind of angle as well, though, there will be many people who are in cities where we're never going to have a local regular thing, and even many people who are not necessarily keen on going to a big event. I mean, so again, it's some people who turn up at BSPs, it's not necessarily their first choice of how to get involved, but it's just the only method they've found. I mean, I know we've, again, over the years, there have been many attempts to have, well, we have things like Debian Mentors have been attempts to have more different welcoming RSE channels or different ways to help people who come from different methods, but I still is a sort of weak spot somehow that we're not, again, I don't, there's any magic solution, but it is a more general thing rather than just about these events. I mean, again, at BSPs, I have seen people, well, I've seen BSP or other Debian meetings or work meetings, which we explicitly advertise as not having any introductory talk, packaging tutorial and so on, but in reality, if you get someone turned up, if everyone just ignores them and they sit in the corner, it's a bit sad. Yeah, yeah. And there's the same thing really online that, again, people, there are, I would believe there's quite a lot of people kind of hanging around online on the edges of the Debian community without really ever quite getting involved, just because somehow we don't manage to make the connection. Just another thing I would raise is that there are also groups that are not strictly Debian groups that have regular meetings. Like, let's say someone wanted to do Debian stuff in Albania, I would send them to the Open Labs group. They have people who use Debian. They're reliable, they have regular activities, they have fun activities. We wouldn't need to set up another group or other meetings there. It's just the same in Manchester. I've been to meetings of Manchester free software. There's probably not enough critical mass there for a Debian group, but that other group would welcome people and would have Debian topics or a Debian speaker from time to time. So I've encouraged these groups to actually put themselves on the local groups wiki as well. So maybe this is also a topic for tomorrow. But if people are aware of other groups that are welcoming Debian speakers, then that can be a forum for doing things instead of stretching ourselves to have a dedicated meeting for Debian. When is the local groups tomorrow? If I recall, it's 10 o'clock. It's been scheduled. I'm just bringing up the schedule. Yeah, it says 10 o'clock in Bo, it's Bo. I think we are in Bo. So, yeah. So try to stumble in with your hangover from the cheese and wine and... Yeah. It's not that difficult. People just come and sleep in here. Very local group. Some joke there. So, obviously, I also run a fairly well-known big annual get-together for Debian people in the UK at the barbecue I host at my place. Does anybody else try to do any big just social event at all? Have you got anything, you know, anything to share about that, anything that works well, anything that doesn't? Well, not to drop a minute, but a tinge show. Yeah, actually I was following on the streaming so that's what I came up with. Brilliant. OK, you and Mike. How are we doing for time? So, yeah, I wanted to add, I organise... Not regular, but whenever we feel like doing a local event that is purely social in Ireland, it's a small community there. So, but we go... Sorry. Sorry. So, yeah, that works pretty well. We just go to the pub, announce it in all the local mailing lists and sometimes we have somebody who's not regular Debian contributor joining us. Like, yeah, the usual just put in the wiki, announce it in the local mailing list, that works pretty well. And then it's starting to become regular organised yearly event. Two times already in Barcelona, well, Catalonia. In May, and that worked pretty well. It was purely technical, but very different from that conference because it's just the camp parts. So, just sitting by the pool and hugging. And I really like that event, so I will try to make it continuous. Yeah, well, I liked it too. It's very good, yeah. Can you talk more, how regular is the one in... You haven't running in Dublin or...? Well, when I am there, which is not always, I try to make it more regular once a month, but, yeah, scheduling things and sometimes we are only three or four, so it doesn't happen all the time, but at some point it was happening every month. Nice. But that was still on an ad hoc basis. In other words, it wasn't the second Tuesday. No, it was. It was actually the second Monday of the month in the same pub every morning. That's cool. But the points are different, not around. People forget to call it, and so, yeah. That's the problem with our very small community like we have in Ireland. And what sort of numbers were we...? Usually three or four, six stops. DDs or...? Plus. Yeah, DDs or DMs. Yeah, and we had a couple of times, a guy joined us that was visiting Dublin and he's not DD or DM, but now he's trying to get more involved, so that's good. And there was another guy also who came a couple of times that is not a formalized city with a project that you like to come and chat. So at least there's one case I can say that I think is getting more involved in there and thanks to this meeting. So it's good. That's good, that's good. A different question on this is, I'd be interested to know from people who have been organizing BSPs or other Debian types of meetings, is how do they feel about the current level of Debian money on these events? I mean, do people think their BSP would be a thousand times better if they got 10 times as much money towards it or it doesn't make any difference or what? I have something to say about that, actually. Well, Chris contacted me, but it was already too late and difficult to organize it. But yeah, the problem with the one I organized in Catalonia is it's a bit expensive because there's no formalities at all, so everybody pays their own room. And so for people in Spain, actually it was difficult to attend, which is not optimal. So that kind of event. Sorry, because they're paying essentially holiday rates. No, it was still cheaper than a high season, but paying like, how much was it? 50 euros a day, sorry? They have less salaries, this is the background. Yeah, that's the thing. Salaries in Spain are pretty low and traveling in Spain is not cheap, so having some money maybe to subsidize the hotel room or something like that will help. But at the same time I'm doing this event with the idea of no setup. So no sponsors, no bullseries or anything like that. So that's why it was difficult also to try to make it work in a way that they didn't go help. But if there was some kind of lump sum that they didn't go put towards the rooms, something like that, that would probably help a lot of people. Or if people can apply individually. As long as I don't have to do it, it's fine. Right, because otherwise you wouldn't do the event, quite frankly. No, it's not that. No, I will still do it. I've been involved in a lot worse than that, but the idea was to keep the event and this thing and not make it too complicated. This year I organized it in a couple of days. I just called the hotel, they re-know me, said, okay, we're doing it again. Which days work for you? Okay, do it, done. Then just call a couple of calls to the bus stations to get updated timetables and that was basically it. So that's great. I guess that also means that you can attend the event because in some senses an organizer is just being the organizer and they're there, sure. But they're like, they don't touch their laptop because they're just so... That was my experience in DevConf 8. I only did organization and not even sleeping. Right, you didn't sort of go, you didn't do DevConf 8 in that sense. Yeah, yeah. So in this case it was great for me because I had a lot of work done. Like much more than I would do in DevConf for any other place. So it's great to have a low effort event is more sustainable for a small team especially. Yeah. Especially when the team is won. So I guess it'll be sort of difficult for Debian to justify funds on hotel rooms next to a pool, right? I understand that. Yeah, I mean, but things around like travel, I don't see why Debian, the normal BSP travel rules, which I think is 100 euro or 100 US for travel couldn't be used for that. Yeah, if every person will apply individually maybe and we can say that, okay, this event is okay for this kind of funds. And even if it's not a BSP because we are not doing BSP things. But I'll speak for yourself. Sorry? I did some. Okay, yeah, but I didn't. I was not close in bulk, so. Yeah. And I didn't organize a BSP. But if something like that was like pre-approved and everybody will apply individually according to their needs, whatever, well, then it will have trouble or pain part of the room or whatever. Just help people to make it more affordable. Particularly for those people, thank you. Particularly for those people who are just sort of on the edge like, ooh, it's sort of. There was a few people that told me they couldn't attend because of money. Right. Yeah. I was gonna suggest having some figures like this $100 that was raised a few years ago or 100 euros can also encourage people to organize events. Like if they know that there's a possibility that they're gonna get funding or that there's a minimum amount they will get, they will actually start thinking how can we use this effectively and have an event. So there might even be other things that could be advertised. Like if you organize a hackathon or if you organize something else, Debian will commit this or that or will guarantee to send a speaker or something like that. Yeah, it's different encouragements for people to organize events. Because some of the requests, maybe Chris can comment more on the requests that he receives for funding. I imagine if they don't have guidance, some of them might not know exactly what is reasonable and what isn't. But if they're actually guided to say, organize something over a weekend and we'll give this much money, and then they'll structure their requests around that. I think that's right. I mean, I've had, for example, the Alioth replacement sprint. I had some males requesting sort of pre-approval for funds, et cetera. And it was sort of clear that they weren't really sure that this was obviously going to be available. And so my reply was like, well, yes, of course. Are you sure you just need that amount? I mean, let's get this done. So I think there is some sort of perception there that could be modified and then people would be keener to organize these things and feel less stressed about doing so. Which would be more of them happen, et cetera, et cetera. Well, in Mexico City, we have done mainly the Debian day. We have organized it. And most of the time it is attended by a lot of people. But for example, to organize a book question party or some sprint about something more focused on Debian, some topic. It is more difficult because in Mexico, we are few people into the Debian project directly and trying to push initiatives or getting involved. And first we need to make grow the interest to participate in Debian like translations, packaging, or even designing, something like that. Because in self-management, we have achieved since 2010 to organize events like Debian Day or even the release parties about Debian Jesse and Stretch, the Stanford Fest. So now the challenge is to make grow interest about books question parties and generate contributors from Mexico to Debian. Well, I actually have a lot of people come to these events but mostly Debian users. And then many of us, myself included, have not. This is the first time I'm trying to come closer to see how can actually get involved in Debian. So this is a barrier so far as we should have a large community of Debian users that we've grown over the years but we just haven't been able to get through that additional step to become contributors. And you've obviously taken that step and what made you do that? Well, I figured this out, right? Right, I see, yeah. But what made you, you've clearly made some steps at least mentor. I made it here, right? No. Well, no, exactly. So in that sense, what made you come here instead of just being like, well, Debian's pretty cool. Well, we've just been doing this for so long and have so many people in such a big community that's using Debian and so feel close to the project even though I haven't gotten involved formally. So it seems important because it's like, okay, we've built a whole community around this and we need to be more involved to ensure that Debian meets our needs and that we're a part of that process in some way. But there's a lot to work to be done. Jonathan has been kind of instrumental in kind of giving those introductions and how we can take those additional steps. Cool. So should we try and wrap up any final parting thoughts? Cool, thank you. Hope to see you at some sort of event that you organized. Thank you.