 Good evening everybody tonight. We're going to be debating Israel versus Palestine. Who's in the right? We have justice and Sula versus JF garpy and Hussein start us out justice. The floor is all yours, buddy Good evening everyone glad to be here with you all tonight. First. I'd like to say thank you to the modern day Modern-day debate platform in general James specifically for organizing this great forum for us Ryan for moderating for us And with no further comment. I will get going Tonight we are debating the Palestine versus Israel debate. I Don't know what the last-minute name of the debate is But in my in my understanding it is about whether or not Israel has a historic moral practical right to exist and to Defend itself So I'll start with the historic my position is is that the Jewish people otherwise known as the nation of Israel has been Endemic to the region for over 3,000 years the first Archaeological conformable reference to the state of Israel is an Egyptian steely that dates back to 1200 BC which actually mentions that the Egyptians defeated Israel, you know in a battle also a Moabite stone known as the Meshah Steely Talks about the Israeli invaders in the 9th century Same thing. We have the Tel Dan Steely is a fragmentary steely contained in a Kenyan inscription is One of the only inscriptions that we have outside of the Bible that references the house of David also Israel as a people We also have the cure Monolite also a Syrian steely in which it is recorded that the king Ahab of Israel is joining in the Assyrian coalition These four steelys give us iron age evidence of the people of Israel having an extent Population in the region since time almost immemorial I Also like to mention or to underscore here that we also we see that the these four steelys represent the complicated and Not a lot of many complicated and gray areas in the narrative Not only do we see Israel being defeated at one point, but also as an invader and as joining in coalition forces with other regional powers further on in the history of the of the nation or the Israeli people the Jewish people in The territory we now call Palestine the Alexander the Great took over Jerusalem 331 Of course, the Jews were already there the Romans under Pompeii took The nation or took Jerusalem again took Israel over in 63 BC Spacian Slash with his son Titus destroyed the temple famously of in Jerusalem the Jewish temple Jerusalem in 7080 The lesser known final destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans was done in 132 Or excuse me 135 AD After the Bar Cobra revolt where the Jewish people rose up against Roman oppression and Jerusalem was then named renamed a la capitalina And Judea was renamed as Palestine the conflict today between Palestine Israel has at least it's a link linguistic and Somewhat power dynamics dating back to this time settlers Jewish settlers remained in Palestine and resettled back into Jerusalem after Hadrian died a Hadrian had made a law that the Roman emperor who oversaw the destruction of Jerusalem under the part when he was calling the Bar Cobra revolt Had made an edict not allowing Jews to settle in Jerusalem or in the surrounding areas and those settlers resettled the area after the Roman edicts change again Moving on in history the Muslim call Caliph Umar took over Jerusalem at 638 AD the Jews were definitely there the first crusade in 1099 talked about it the Jews being there Saladin famously 88 years later reconquered Jerusalem 1187 again Amnesty to the Jews under Saladin Demonstrates that they were definitely there Kosarians in 1233 famously took over Jerusalem from a temporary holding After the sixth crusade And sack Jerusalem killing both Christians and Jews again showing that they were most definitely there The Ottomans ruled the area that we know as Palestine original today from 1516 to 1917 and then that brings us up to the modern times when the British took over Palestine from the Ottomans in 1917, there was a declaration that there was an intent to make a Jewish homeland in the area known as Palestine as we know there was the mandate for Palestine Which was given to the British Empire by the League of Nations to rule Equitably the area of Palestine When the British were giving up their Palestinian mandate there was a UN partition plan that was put into place which was rejected by the five Arab nations that then Subsequently invaded the area of Palestine, which would then was brought to the 1947 1948 War where the nation of Israel was established How am I doing for my time you got 40 seconds to hit up 40 seconds left between that time and today the Nation of Israel has fought several wars and has also given many offers of peace to the Palestinian people Allowing for a two-state solution, which is often almost every time has been rejected the historic argument for the state of Israel is that the people the Jewish people are Endemic to the region and have a right not as colonizers or as invaders But as the people who have a right to live just as much as the Palestinians do in that region I'm gonna kick it over to my partner to talk about the practical and the moral Concepts or respects and the modern modern events. All right. Well, thank you so much for your introductory statement there Justice six minutes on the floor to you Sula. Thanks for being here Thank you, Ryan and a quick correction. My name is a Dar whiner I'm so has the name on my YouTube channel where I happen to facilitate conversations between Israelis and Palestinians But it's it's okay because the name on my email is so I understand where the mistake came from and I Guess there was an opportunity for me to plug. So thank you for that You know before we get started I just I just want to make it clear that I don't I don't even consider myself to be pro Israel as much as I consider myself to be pro-peace and for me pro-peace means to really care about the well-being of both Israelis and Palestinians And and support their self-determination But with that it also means to be very critical of both sides to recognize that they have both been plagued by poor leadership and Serious lack of self-reflection on on the sides of their activists So today I'm not gonna make the case that Israel is good and Palestine is bad I'm I'm gonna make the case that the the movement for Palestinian liberation has been misguided and entirely counterproductive So I think it's important to explain a certain tension between the two narratives the Israeli narrative and the Palestinian narrative you know Zionism is seen to Israelis as this indigenous rights movement of movement a movement to recreate a homeland on the land that Jews are Native to and against all odds after thousands of years in exile Successfully achieving this home this dream of a homeland a land where they can control their own destiny and Ensure their security while Palestinians view that same movement as a form of settler colonialism that has done nothing But they'll humiliate humiliate and displace them Understanding this tension is going to be important important if we want to understand how to move forward effectively So why has why has Palestinian activism been entirely counterproductive well when we assess What Palestinian activism has entailed what are they asking for it's been less so for a state of their own It's been less so for equal rights as many in the west would suggest It's been for a Palestinian state from the River to sea from the River to the sea not a Binational state for both people but a state for Palestinians by Palestinians the majority of whom also would like some kind of religious nature to the state Islamic religious nature Now With that There's also Palestinians have not been shy in their aspiration to rid Jews of the land not all Palestinians But many a significant amount and there has not actually been a significant movement of Palestinians that have renounced violence and Spoken for Jews remaining on the land when we look at recent polling We see that 75% of Palestinians living on the land have supported October 7th attacks When we look at another recent poll we see that over 70% of Palestinians support a Palestinian state from the River to the sea a Palestinian state only 77% support a Binational state for both people which is interesting because most Western activists these days are saying that is the solution so it just shows how Untouched with untouched with reality They actually are that they that they're pushing a solution that Palestinians themselves don't want now given this reality and the fact that the the majority of Palestinian resistance has been violent resistance and the primary target has been civilians and not Military There's really no case No strong case to be made that Jews can remain to be safe on the land and given the destruction or dismantling of the state of Israel as many would suggest And some would like to look back prior designism and show that Jews and Palestinians lived peacefully on the land together And I would acknowledge that it was times were relatively good, but Jews were second-class citizens Jews have no intention to become second-class citizens again And it's also I don't think so realistic to think that we could turn back the clock and after a hundred years of conflict with one Another that we can expect there not to be Violence between two populations who have really been fighting in who have immense levels of fear mistrust and hate of one another So given the fact that there's no strong case that Jews will remain safe on the land given the dismantling of the state of Israel, which is the primary call of Palestinians Jews will never consent to that solution and When we try to force Jews living on the land to the solution Well, we see what that results in nothing, but bloodshed and bloodshed primarily for Palestinians and and it's unfortunate It's it's actually we can call it tragic What has really been the result of? Palestinian activism of violent resistance It's been more misery for Palestinians first and foremost It's been less chance of statehood loss of land and a more radicalized Israeli population that is less interested in peace with Palestinians More than anything, that's what Palestinians have to show for after a hundred years of resistance So I'd like to suggest a workable framework one that we can move forward with it's one that ensures security for Jews and justice for Palestinians and we could We could achieve justice for Palestinians without creating an injustice for Jews, right? It's important to remember that justice and vengeance are not the same thing So I call on Palestinians and their supporters to support Israel's right to exist or I don't even know what it means to have a right to exist Just the fact that Israel does exist 20 seconds 20 second and and for Israelis to work to transform Israel So it can be a state that is easier for Palestinians to exist This is the framework that we can move forward with this is a framework that could lead to Security justice and peace for all people. Thank you All right. Well, thank you so much for your introductory statement I will do a little housekeeping and remind everybody welcome to modern-day debate hit the like button hit that subscription button We got lots of juicy debates on this channel And you know if you haven't seen them definitely go check them out But we are in neutral space providing debates on science politics and religion And I'm gonna ask Hussein To intro I think for the pro-Palestinian side I we didn't talk about it before but I I feel like I can count on you buddy so I'm gonna put six minutes on the clock and Put it on over to you. So thank you for being here everybody and the floor is yours, bud All right. Thanks. Yeah, and thanks for having the debate. So Many people want to talk about this and focus solely on Hamas's attacks and the October 7th attacks Excuse me specifically However, like Adar had mentioned this had started long before With the creation of Israel. So Zionism actually spawned in 1897 There's an Arab mayor of the name Yusuf al-Khalili who wrote to the founder of Zionism Theodore Herzl So Yusuf wrote that the Ottoman Empire was the ruler and I'm paraphrasing this by the way Ruler of Palestine and that people are sympathetic to the Jewish plight But there's already a population here and it would create issues within the Middle East had they attempted to create a nation there so Herzl replied to the letter stating well He would not even think of harming the population or removing the population But that wasn't necessarily mentioned which shows Zionist political ideology was always hinged on colonizing and removing the indigenous population population Herzl again the founder of Zionism even admitted this in his own Diaries stating he needed that we needed to remove the population So at the time when he was still formulating his ideas on Zionism He stated we shall try to spirit the penniless population Palestinians across the border by procuring employment for it in transient countries while denying it any employment in their own country Both the process of exportation and removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspec Circumstantly so he's readily admitting that the Zionist project is a Colonial project and that they wanted to and need to remove the original population there this was also recognized by other early Zionists and The theme of expulsion has consistently ran through Zionism as well as in the current stage with Netanyahu BV which I don't it sounds like a deer is more like reasonable on this so in 1905 Israel Zanguil an organizer of Zionism in Britain and one of Zionism's top Propagandists had coined the slogan a land without a people for a people without a land Completely ignoring that people already lived in Palestine and then he acknowledged in a speech in Manchester when asked about it That pal that in fact people did live there He stated we must be prepared either to drive out by sword The Arab tribes in possession as our forefathers did or grapple with the problem of a large alien population mostly Mohameds Mohamedin's Muslims a custom for centuries to despise us essentially ignoring that Jew mr. Afti Jews, which is a fake term, but I can go into that later Had lived there prior Like under Saladin and other like Ottoman Emperor rule. Anyways, so This is ironic giving Jewish leader figures will admit that Islam and Arab save the Jewish people multiple times In fact, you guys can look up. There's an essay in multiple lectures given by David Westerstein steen which We can now go forward to the notorious Bellford Declaration there's some context here the British government prior to this called the Hussein Makhoon agreed to give Palestine to the Arabs and independence to all Arab speaking nations So in July 1915, which was before the bell for agreement They had essentially correspondence, which was conditions that they write and revolt against the Ottoman Empire And he said that he effectively worked for all Arabs in trying to seek land Excuse me freedom and independence From all nations east of Egypt, which would include Palestine so the bell for agreement though was written between the British government and Walter Rothschild and It was used excuse me used as their source of, you know, legitimacy even though two years again, it was stated to go to the Arabs, so This actually as well goes against your idea of liberalism and the right to self-determination Which you would think is odd Considering that this is from Europeans who supposedly espoused liberal values But instead they took land from another people and promised it to a mostly Ashkenazi Jewish population, which is European and we can go into that later as well and so His majesty's government view the favor of the step. No, sorry. This is just the Delphiore agreement. I was gonna read it, but I don't think I'll have the time So the implication that Jewish white people have the rights to a nation that non-Jews have to a country despite being there for 2000 years and even further if you want to go into DNA with the majority of the Palestinian Arab population Having Canaanite DNA now there are Jewish people within there who do have Canaanite DNA too. I won't You know negate that Okay, so Britain and the USA rarely admit throughout multiple generations that they needed to fund a colonialist project in the Middle East There's evidence to show that the British train Zionist forces in the early stages of Israel development so if you don't know about this but Israel trained the Haganah and Iron gun and leave Levi or stern group stern gang to actually squash the Arab rebellion in the 30s and then We can go more in that too, but there's a lot about that where how like You know the iron gun and the high group were labeled terrorist organizations by the West And so it's ironic that now Hamas is Okay Hamas is declared a terrorist organization But if they had learned from their attackers, it seems like terrorism gets you a state Unfortunately, like I'm not agreeing with it You guys so don't quote that but I'll see my time to Yes, he said see his time, but you're all out honestly, I'm sorry. That's cool. That's cool. I'm just I want to say how much I'm Underwhelmed by the argument that we are receiving from the other side here Is that even a defense of Israel what we've heard what we've heard is a theoretical defense of a theoretical Israel But it certainly isn't the defense of the current Israel and that which has always existed Which is a nation that violates rights a nation that lies a nation that uses deception Fraud and the murder of civilians as part of its military expansion is strategy And yet we have here people like just us who come and make a case that Jews some Jews some Jews were historically present in this area That is very far from a case that is sufficient to justify a Recolonization of the area and I think he acknowledges it himself at the end of his Entrust statement when he says Jewish people do not have a right as Colonizers, but they are endemic to the region and have an equal right to live in the region But the fact is that the Jewish people have been unable to benefit of this equal right without depriving The Palestinian civilians from an ability to live and this goes from last week from one month ago and from 80 years ago back in 1948 at the foundation of Israel is a series of event that has terrorized populations Killed population ethnically clenched Palestine for the Jews to be able to establish there The job was made by the hagana then which was the predecessor of the current military branches of Israel and this parent military Organization was committing atrocities and if you want to hear the people who have committed these atrocities Themselves report how disgusted they are at what they had to do listen to the movie. That's on YouTube called 1948 Creation and Catastrophe. It's a brilliant movie. You get to see the people in 1948 who have committed the genocide of the Palestinian on this territory and you get to hear their own views on this The problem of Israel's existence is that it has been relying historically on A self-affirmed right that they have to pursue Represol operations and that is still what's going on today Although it goes on under a different name because represent operations was a concept that they were putting in action in 1948 and after in the 50s and 60s Where they would punish basically civilian populations for military attacks that they were the victim of so a terrorist groups attacks the Jews of Israel the Jews would come back and And hurt a village they would hurt children woman They would hurt everything everyone that they could find there and that is what what is referred to as a represent operation And I don't make it up. It is something that is acknowledged in the history of Israel a Total of 500 to 700 villages of Palestine that were populated by Arabs have been Depopulated by the Jews when they established Israel and that included the movement of 750,000 Arab people who are not led to live where they used to live a lot of them were just intimidated away which allows Historically the defenders of Israel to say oh well They left on their own but they left on the threat of massacres massacres that Israel would commit Whenever they refused to leave one example of this is the Kibia massacre occurred during operation Shoshana it was a represent operation that occurred in October 1953 when Israeli troops under Ariel Sharon attacked a village of Kibia in the West Bank Which was then under Jordan's control They have massacred woman and children two two-thirds of the population that was killed that day were woman and children As far as historical presence of the Jews goes, I don't think it's a particularly good argument because personally my ancestors lived in France Personally, you know, I'm at the I'm a kibik why I live in Canada I know that my ancestors lived in France But at no point would I affirm that my ancestors coming from France gives me a right to step back into France By leaving this country and by living inter-generationally in some other nations. I have Forgives I lose my right to occupy France And if I was to come back to France and start to have to kill and destroy villages to establish my existence in Europe I would see this as an act of aggression I would see this as an act of terrorism and this is exactly what the founders of the Israel that we know today had to do and It makes no doubt that as the Jews established themselves in the early history of Israel That before that it was occupied by a large population of Arabs Edward Robinson is a Explorer for an American biblical scholar who wrote biblical researches in Palestine and he describes visiting Palestine He further noted about the village al-Dawayyama That Dawayyima he further noted it as a Muslim village between the mountains and Gaza But subject to the government of al-Kulil he visited Victor Guerin visited it twice also saw that what was there was a population of Arabs this part particular village had between different parts of history 80 to 700 people and This is the kind of village that was completely destroyed by the Zionist when they established Israel So what I say and I will address later in the conversation the points of Adar But what we have here is a very weak case based on philosophical premises that are invalid and most importantly It puts aside the real Israel the one that we see today makes civilians suffer across Gaza All right Well, thank you so much for your introductory statement there gf and and to everybody else for their introductory statements So I will let everybody know in the live chat to keep yourself friendly We are going to be doing Q&A at the end of this discussion. I know that for some people is quite a heated topic So, you know like I said try to keep your chats in the live friendly And get those Q&A's and now if you want those to be answered nice and early So I usually kick it over to the other side to launch the open discussion. So justice and asula If you would like to open us up and respond to some of what you just heard and feel free to jump in at any time here fellas Justice if you're quote that I'm happy to take the lead here Go for it Well, so, you know, I noticed the the primary discussion so far has been about history and History has some relevance and is of some interest But I think it's generally doesn't determine the present situation and what we need to do to move forward in in fact You know, both Hussein and JP are currently living in countries that were born on on the genocide of the the native population And there's generally no discussion of dismantling those nations. In fact, they talk about transforming those countries to better accommodate indigenous populations And I would say that there is one distinction, you know countries like the United States Canada and much of South America they genocide of the native populations to the point where there is no longer a demographic concern They're no longer as a conflict Israel Did not genocide the Palestinians. They they did engage in ethnic cleansing. I won't deny that but the Palestinian population has grown by three and a half X since 48 So it the fact that there is this demographic battle between both populations certainly makes finding a solution More challenging, but it seems awfully Ideologically inconsistent that generally speaking when we talk about a nation's past crimes We never talk about dismantling that nation as a response But when it comes to Israel that generally is the case being made so I'm interested in why the distinction here So I'll go ahead Yeah, sorry, I was just gonna say I was gonna ask you this and it was a part of my initial statement, but I didn't really get to kind of flesh it out more but Um, you're you're mentioning stuff like, you know, sure we can agree with you Like it would be nice of like a one-state all democracy or a two-state solution Whichever the people want to agree that's fine But the fact of the matter is I I don't see anyone in power in Israel who wants a two-state solution Like when you have Benjamin Netanyahu Literally stating that with the in the UN just this year We're the greater Israel on a map and it includes Gaza and the West Bank And then you have people on his side of the government who are the ones who retain power currently Um saying things like that and we need to do like Amalek and ethnically genocide them to the south and then actually really the Um should just get rid of all of it and Gaza needs to be um like made into There's even current Israeli Um, what's her name? I have it uh down here, but essentially she said that we need to wipe Gaza off and then annex it And then use it for like uh their oil and then make it a canal stuff like that so there there's Uh, of course all the normal random people like we want peace you want peace. I'm sure um, the reason we're bringing up history is because in the initial foundation of Israel, um, if you If you look back the actual population discrepancy is insane. So Arabs, uh had 60 of the uh majority I think or even higher at one point Where there's only like eight percent ethnic jews and then britain still had promised the whole country to eight percent Um, and then these same zionists wanted a jewish supremacist state, right? Like the right to return is only for jewish people So like you and me could agree, but like the people in power within israel um Like do not agree with you at all, right? So That's that's where this is and I mean if you want it for me justice wise It should be one palestine and it could be democracy or whatever, but Uh, what were you gonna say? Well, I'd like to give I'd like to weigh out on the justice part um the population of Uh, what we call it what we refer to as palestine um starting from the 1917s after the after the mandate the Illegal nations mandate there ended up being sort of somewhat of a population war Where both arabs and jews were immigrating to the area of palestine In record numbers you have huge amounts of arabs coming in from egypt and syria You have large amounts of jews coming in from europe and this is something that has to be addressed by your side That is not only an insurgence of Ashkenazi european jews, but also an insurgence of jews from primarily muslim nations around The the palestinian area as well as a huge influx of arabs who were largely brought in by british concerns to help Manage the oil transit So it's this is a this is a just an ahistorical idea that you had this extremely small population of jews and this overwhelming population of arabs. There was an actual Population arms race that had was kicked off when the ottomans lost palestine to the brit Britain's after the bell for declaration And and if i if i may build on that who's saying I think you bring you bring up legitimate points that you know i'd like to speak on Currently the you know israel has not had leadership in in over a decade that has really done much to achieve a two-state solution But if you if you look at if you look at israeli sentiment There's always been over 50 of the population supports a two-state solution until october 7th But what we do see is public and this should give us all hope for for For the future that public opinion changes year to year given environmental conditions and given good leadership and hope for a better future I think we could get public opinion to change So the will on israel's side for there to be a two-state solution has been made clear multiple times in the past with With concessions during oslo during camp david accords and it's consistently been rejected by palestinians palestinians always claim It's not a good enough deal But when we look at the the public opinions within palestinian society At a record high it did hit 50 supporting Two states but many of them their their version of two states was 48 borders or it was because Let's take whatever we can get and then continue fighting for the rest of the land The the the majority of the energy in palestinian activism has not been let's live side by side in a state next to the jews it's let's correct this historic injustice and Either just rid the land of jews or at the at the very best, you know They could live as second-class citizens under under under us and and many palestinians are are clear in their aspiration to do so This sentiment needs to change if we're going to want to achieve a two-state solution Or we could look at other other solutions, but the whole idea of Two populations have been in conflict with one another for Over a hundred years with severe levels of of fear mistrust and hate all of a sudden being kumbaya You know, I think I think our activism should be grounded in in pragmatism and reality And I just that would almost certainly lead to massive amounts of bloodshed unlike we We've never even seen in in the conflict So we should look for solutions that can allow for Two distinct populations for their own version of self-determination and maybe over time over generations of reconciliation We could work towards a more unified state But it shouldn't be a precondition to peace because that stops peace in its tracks I agree I agree that there are solutions for peace that could be explored But I think that adar here is really taking A lands that is very pro-israeli and I don't know that he can mirror the same Thing on the palestinian side I'd like to test you adar because you say the primary target of palestinian violence being mostly civilians There cannot be a case for the possibility of a safe existence for jews Remaining safe on that land Would you be able to say the same thing and understand that a palestinian could feel the exact same thing that there is no Safety for them as long as the zionist occupation exists I could certainly understand that given the The history of the conflict palestinian should have The the level of fear and hate they have of israel is certainly understandable and I wouldn't deny that for a moment We we can though look to see that 20 percent of israel's population Are our palestinian citizens of israel who have equal rights? They serve in the supreme court. They serve in government In fact 50 percent of doctors and pharmacists in israel happen to be palestinian citizens of israel So we do have a clear example and and these palestinian citizens of israel have amongst the best quality of life in the entire middle east So I think there is a case to be made that Given peace palestinians can live safely in the state of israel as they do today And and I'm I'll go on to say because I do want to be very honest and fair here It's not like everything is perfect between Jewish and palestinian citizens of israel But this is also because we're two populations who have been in conflict with one another So there is immense islamophobia amongst israeli society Which the second we achieve peace there will be much less Fuel to the fire which is islamophobia and relations which are actually generally good between Jewish and palestinian citizens of israel will improve given a peaceful resolution Now when you say there are solutions that are not two state solutions, do you mean Israel basically taking over all of the lands that are that are the west bank and gaza And controlling them and the palestinians being deported. How does that look your your best solution without the two state solution Sure. So I I generally like to remain solution agnostic not for the for the reason that I care more about a solution being just and providing security And freedom for both sides. So I could support two states I could support one state if I see it achieving that certain criteria So in terms of what I think is on the table and realistic, I think we could do Two states, which is dying. I think it's still possible. I I personally Uh Lately have been leading leaning towards a federation solution Which both canada and united states happen to be federations as well So this is a model that works in many countries Countries of the world and you could essentially look at this as anywhere from a 12 to 20 state solution That the land divides up into smaller states or cantons giving local populations much more local autonomy You could have a sophisticated system of checks and balances So you could have a palestinian government you can have an israeli government And you can have a dual government and then you have this this solution where you don't have Populations have been fighting for so long competing over control over one government and one military And it seems like a sophisticated solution such as this very well may be what we need to start looking at Now there are always there are always problems in the offers that we've seen from the israeli side Which is that it always comes at the condition of disarmament So it's my impression that any solution that would pass of that kind would fundamentally disarm And make the arab populations unable to defend themselves in this federation um I would certainly agree that any solution we come up with is uh Going to have challenges that we will need to solve But we can I think everybody here can agree that the current status quo is not sustainable And will always lead to more violence. So we will have to make concessions and and uh certain risks as well I think it's just some some solutions pose less risk less risk than others that said israel does not have a history of And again, you can find instances, but israel does not have a a history of attacking palestinians when it's not a result of a threat or of violence um, that's not true Okay, we could we could we could talk about this We could talk about and and and I would we could get into the knockbook because I think the knockbook is a clear example where Zionists opportunistically Took a threat of violence as a way to shift the demographics of the land So I'm not even sure we would have a disagreement there But if we look if we look in modern times What where where support for israel's policies the policies that harm palestinians can all be justified By israeli's because it's perceived as keeping them safe. So the second the security is no longer a concern Public support for any any policy that harms palestinian will will reduce significantly. So a lot of this Come down to security What you're suggesting is that the palestinians should just give up arms And then possibly just get slaughtered and then force off all in the hopes that the idf Will actually just Excuse me honor it and then go for a two-state solution Which like we've all agreed it sounds like Netanyahu's Current control of the government like will not ever agree, especially like hardcore zionists who their sole Objective with the state of israel is a jewish majority state So I don't see how like what's your hat what you're saying is even feasible Especially when every build-up or retaliation by palestinians has typically been like a against israeli aggression so for example like as soon as hamas got elected they immediately Blockated and controlled the entire Strip so they're saying oh, we're gonna recede and come cut back And you're you're gonna have your autonomy again And then like in reality you don't have an autonomy and then they're gonna put you on like a diet And then they're gonna control the local economy and then meanwhile that they're doing this they're doing like by the way These are like orwellian terms guys operation defensive shield cast lead pillar of defense like protective edge There and then even all these by the way all stem from the ire gun and stern gangs active defense and by active defense what they mean again orwellian term they're gonna go and Out of their way to slaughter villagers to psychologically destroy the arab population And make it so that they don't want to retaliate, which is insane like i'm gonna go and shoot Excuse me. Maybe I should say this you know jf's Like wife if you had a wife, I don't know Right to stop him from ever attacking me. That's like an insane take and that's Terrible And then the funniest thing is is all these people and it makes sense by the way that they have these policies because if you look at Israel's government Everyone who was involved with the ire gun stern gang and haganah are the leaders They're the leaders and so then of course they have these insane policies where they're like, yeah I'm gonna go shoot this palestinian child so that the dad doesn't kill me like Uh, so But but who's saying I don't think there's a case to be made that that current palestinians currently palestinians being armed Is in any way defend it helping in their defense? I mean the arms they have or pale in comparison to what israel Has and it's not like they they're a military match in any way shape or form So them being unarmed all that will do is More more than anything reduce their ability to to harm civilians not not its soldiers Civilians have been the primary target of palestinian violence So the difference between the guns they have now Um, and them not having guns is not going to make the difference in what israel has the capability of doing to them And the rockets they shoot on israel are not shot at big military bases. They're shot at civilian population centers So I I think that there's not really a strong case to be made that if palestinians Uh, weren't armed Then israel would somehow take advantage of that because they could very clearly take advantage right now of their military might and and do whatever They do, uh, you know, I just want to jump in right here behavior of israel Just to say quickly I look at the current behavior of israel and they do they do exploit Little acts of aggression to respond in disproportionate manners and international humanitarian law states Attacks on military objects must not cause loss of civilian life Considered excessive in relation to the direct military advantage anticipated yet They strike hospitals hundreds of civilians dying from these strikes And all we have is a couple of kalachnikov's behind a mri That they can show on these ridiculous propaganda video So they definitely have been dishonest in the past and would be even more if gaza was designed All right, justice you had something to say let me jump in here real quick. Yeah, let me jump in real quick Here response to hussein hussein says what is the track record that would allow us to believe that israeli Governance would not lead to some massive genocide And this is a hard counterfactual because we don't have a track record of a palestinian governance or government, uh, that would actually be something, uh, Equitable to equatable to a real government But the the counterfactual that we can propose is that the era population of israel proper is 21 percent Who have are invested with full citizen rights. We can vote who have been elected to the kinesit who have been um appointed as Supreme judges or the higher courts So this is the the counterfactual that if israel were actually, you know controlling that area that they would somehow You know, uh promote a genocide just evict everybody is absolutely not in in relation with reality On the other hand the question needs to be asked to the for instance. Why doesn't egypt or Lebanon or jordan want to accept a large amounts of palestinian refugees and the answer can be found Easily by looking at the history of these refugees that had been Previously admitted into these countries. So when the palestinians actually do have Um a host nation they cause unrest and violence in their host nations So the counterfactual is Actually in favor of the state of israel requiring that palestinians lay down their arms for peace to happen the other thing that i'd also like to underscore here again when talking to gf jf is that You know the palestinians within the last 20 years have launched something like 20 000 rockets into Israel proper so this is not just your peace loving neighbor that just wants to get along and Suddenly, you know, there's reprisals acted against however in the last thing i'd like to say real quick here is When anyone palestinians or israelis launch military operations and civilians die That's a tragedy and that we should always of course be condemning of civilian deaths and seeking To mitigate those deaths in any case Okay, it's not just a tragedy. It's a genocide and it's been done intentionally for 80 years by israel It's their tactic. They take a justification of violence on the side of the palestinians They use it to go overboard totally disproportionate in their response and they depopulate Doing this that's currently happening to the north of gaza And it's been happening to every piece of territory that they've drained from palestine since 1948 And justice as as someone who as someone who usually has some decent Some some decent Objectivity or not objectivity, but specificity in your language using the term gen of genocide is rather Frankly insane. I mean if the israelis have been genociding the palestinians the last 70 years They've been doing an absolutely terrible job of it compare this to the populations of jews in surrounding arab nations And I think you'll understand what i'm talking about. Um, of course, I would not leave that up to you But to the viewer I think that you are misguided on the definition of genocide the u.m. Does not define a genocide as Accomplished only when everyone is dead There can be a there can be an ethnic cleansing that is incomplete There can be a resurgence of a population by the survivors Applying your thinking to the jews would be quite interesting for the events of world war two. Unfortunately. I can't i'm in canada But it's not because there are survivors that the genocide didn't happen So I just want to say justice also you're ignoring You're ignoring There is discriminatory laws within israel So I don't know why you're you're saying this like blatant propaganda that like oh, there's like one arab judge in israel Therefore, like, you know, it's a great place for arabs to exist and then two again You're ignoring like net and yahoo and the right wing of zot like a israel's current state So they've been trying to do Normalization with all the arab states and they even admitted in a bunch of Israeli news articles that the arab countries have forgot about the plight of palestine And that's what they wanted because then they can just absorb an nx and create greater palestine So I don't know how you can say oh well actually the palestinians are increasing. Well, like yeah, they could increase now They get israel do its goal which is gets normalization with arab countries forces them to stop caring about palestinians And then they just kick them all out, which is what their whole goal is Everyone in that right wing group of the zionist movement. Again, they say From the beginning that if um even under british mandate, so they said If it's whether or not we have all of israel or just a partition of israel doesn't matter Because we get a small Patch of land and that's the beginning to create greater israel and that's from the founding like founding fathers of israel So I don't know how you can just keep ignoring that their whole goal is to have a israeli Jewish majority state And they've literally stated that they want to normalize with arab countries so they can just kick off palestinians That's what that's what the counterfactual plan insinuates again Again the counterfactual that i'm proposing is look at the current state of israel in accordance to their Current borders the israeli proper and their relationship to the arab population within its borders. Is it perfect? No, but that is a good representation of what would happen if israel if israel had majority control over the over the areas that are currently Being discussed first speculation Um, so yeah, you just want israel to have the majority of it and we'll all sing kumbaya. They'll just have like a token error Definitely Definitely not Definitely not kumbaya. We're not talking about kumbaya. The only one who's talking about that is uh the honored opponents here And so the question is not whether we'll have utopia But whether this is a workable solution based on the historical precedent and looking at kind of problem Is your historical precedent? Intentionally ignores half of the story half of the story is the citizens in gaza that have to pass checkpoints And that are under total military dictatorship I Just quick correction uh jeff you're i think you're referring to the west bank, which is sure that there are West bank checkpoints of west bank. Yes. Yeah, but just to just to touch on some points here um So you you mentioned genocide you said genocide doesn't need to be successful in order to be genocide, but I still strongly believe you're using the Definition incorrectly because it's not that israel doesn't have the means to commit a genocide if that was their intention Then you wouldn't have the palestinian population triple since 1948. What israel has engaged in primarily In in the 48 war was ethnic cleansing. So they they did displace many palestinians from villages as hussein mentioned in in his opening And and this is for the the sake of demographic control The whole idea is if you live in a democracy and you don't have demographic control Then you can't control your own destiny. This is the this is the whole point of zionism So you could see a clear incentive incentive white israelis or jewish israelis would want to maintain demographic control You could call that racist you could call it apartheid But jewish would rather be called racist than be dead, right? So this doesn't solve the conflict just giving it a descriptor of racism Again jews are not going to consent to any solution that will Seemingly ensure their destruction. Uh, and if there is There's massive confusion here about the definition of genocide So I want to quote it from article two of the uan and what you just admitted to would be a genocide If you are enacting policies to destroy the demographic direction of a nation or intentionally steer it away From your these for toward your desired end by destroying another group. That would be a genocide Article two of the uan in the present convention Genocide means any of the following acts commited with intent to destroy in whole or in part a national, ethnical, racial or religious groups as such a Killing members of the group causing serious bodily or mental harm to the group They liberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction In whole or in part imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group And e forcibly transferring children of the group to another group israelis literally committing these five criteria for uan genocide It's it's not Wait just real quick even in the definition you give it you it says to physically destroy A group what israel has done as it has no word physical the word physically is not in this definition I have not read this word You I you could read it again It's only in point C that physical is mentioned and it's deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life Calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part physical physical destruction That that's that's that's not what's happening. There's no there there hasn't been an intention or a goal to Cause physical destruction to the palestinian population. There has been incentive to move There's been incentive to move them and that's defined as ethnic cleansing So I think it's important to uh clearly Define our terms because that will help us have productive conversations One is genocide the others at the cleansing. What what uh, can these five criteria are genocide under the uan definition And it does include forcibly transferring children of the group to another group and in terms of physical destruction Anyway, we believe that we're in a conversation on physical destruction when the whole north of gaza currently is rubbles Rubbles and you're telling me it's not physical destruction or it's not been done intentionally. That's bullshit It's jav answer me this well, how many rockets launch from indian reservations in united states or canada would be Acceptable before the united states or canada had reprisals or how many monkeys can step on a pin How many monkeys can dance on a pin? Just let justice wrap. Yeah, this is an evasion of the question jav Your is an evasion of the question who cares about what canada commits toward the u.s I don't care because we haven't even begun the discussion Is committing a genocide of the israelis maybe they are I don't care for now I'm trying to establish that israel is in a state of committing a genocide of another population And you guys have nothing but what about ism for it All right, we gotta let justice respond Just hold your hold your question there Who's saying we got to let justice speak for a couple minutes here at least get it? Well, no, absolutely No, we're not talking about What about ism? We're not talking about what about ism. We are talking about Talking about the situation in an equitable way if if what's good for the goose is good for the gander So you have to look at what is really happening in a real politic Sort of manner. So if you want to defend the palestinians, right? To exist as a state. Sure. Absolutely. If you want to say that israel is wrong in Killing civilians, we can say yes, but in any case either case we have to admit that is israel has a right to defend its population from aggression from hamas, and this is All right, let's give you the beginning of the foundation of israel where they literally were again Taking your house. So if I take your house and then you fight back for the house and then I get to say Oh, I'm doing active defense now and I got to slaughter your whole family That's not that's what's happening and you're describing it like you would be the bad guy for fighting back. That's what you're saying That's insanity So look when you have an open conflict otherwise known as a war you have readjustments of borders Uh under the un partition plan there was an offer of a two-state solution Which was rejected by the Arab leaders. Why would they reject it justice? Why would they reject it justice? Can you can you tell me why they would reject it? uh who's saying uh the the uh The un partition plan was You know, we can we can go in and renegotiate try to renegotiate that I'll say why did the Arabs rejected Tom? Can you tell me why the Arabs rejected it? Why would they reject this British and when you have a great war of thought Then you have readjustment of borders that always happens In wars and is it is it always good? Is it always great? No, of course not And there's a lot of things that happen With one source backed by britain in the us and then the other by Arabs and with ak's and barely any army And calling it a war when it was an ethnic cleansing at least adar is um more uh, Honest about it and wants solutions. You're just literally ignoring history. Oh, why did the Arabs giving up all their land you were the one of the population Why would they do that? You were the one who said that we should go back to white man's savior's plan. Oh That's what you're saying wanted to go back to you're the one who wanted to go back to 1947 And so we talked about You were the one who wanted to go back to 1947 and look at that Issue so so if we want to go back we want to go back that and again who's saying you are you're on this very strange idea of um eliminating the Responsibility or the or the ability of either jews or palestines to stand on their own two feet in this in this thing It's not the designers movement or the jewish It's not just some sort of you know unnatural extension of the british empire Um, plus the Arabs weren't all by themselves in the original 1947 We hear that argument so much on the israeli side Oh, they have refused the offer the problem is an offer is not an offer if by refusing it You suddenly become the bidder gerund and you become the responsible for the offer not having worked If I was to come and say justice, I let's say you're you're an american or a russian I take all of your possessions. I take your house. I take your wife I take everything from you and then I offer a back half of it That would be an offer that you'd be you'd be stupid to accept and yet that is what the palestinians have gotten It was half offers of half rights back to them and not even the right to defend themselves and the right to a military Which is what defines nations and so these offers are just for the looks. They're just for the propaganda. They are bullshit And the iron by the way is Real quick because I don't know you say it's a bullshit offer But if that offer was accepted, I mean the lives of palestinians would be considerably better today They'd they'd have statehood and given years of peace uh, palestinians could certainly work to a position where they can build the military But it's not like they would need one if we have peace that's a hypothetical and it requires very good treatment from israelis In a nation that they wouldn't control and it's a hypothetical based on israeli good faith And I've learned to reject these hypotheticals with experience and learning I did I did have a question israeli aggression has always been justified by palestinian aggression or palestinian threats of aggression And that is the only reason why israeli support aggression and you know, I actually have a similar A similar conversation with israelis. They talk about the need of a strong military We can't survive with a strong military. That that's what we hear and in the current situation It's true, but there's actually no security better than long-term peace. So that's really what we need to be working towards So the the fact the idea that palestinians wouldn't accept statehood because they didn't get everything they wanted It's really putting pride in the way of progress And I think this has really been one of the biggest mistakes that the palestinian side has made since 1948 since they were position I just want to say hamas in 2017 this is what I was going to ask you because it's interesting Uh, I looked it up because a lot of people have been using propaganda talking points that hamas has in their charter They want to wipe out jewish people, which isn't true because I can cite their articles Like article 6 and 31 states that they are Belief in peace with all three religions abrahamic faiths but anyways in the 2017 charter hamas presented the palestinian state being based on 1967 borders with the establishment of a sovereign In complete palestinian state with the capital in jerusalem But uh contingent they said that they would essentially have like a peace offer, but they wouldn't recognize israel. So it's like a Kind of like a ceasefire, but they will actually recognize it But in future generations, maybe palestinians will soften up and they'll have you know more good ties and you know It can become more of a amicable relationship Like you're talking about would you be willing to make a two-state solution with hamas then which would be very controversial Yeah, so i'm i'm in the certainly in the minority opinion that thinks any organization any group can evolve to be one that you can make Peace with and i think history of conflict shows shows us this to be the case So israel is get quite quite furious at me when i think uh, there there is potential Solution where hamas is legitimized as a government. It seems harder to believe than ever before After october 7th, but this is something i've been saying for years In terms of their updated charter It does recognize it doesn't recognize israel's right to exist it it does lay out 67 for the framework for palestinian state But other places in the charter they say that um, you know, the struggle continues until the full Liberation of palestine of historic palestine, right? So so there is language there that that makes it clear that it's not like the establishment of a palestinian state On 67 borders would uh, would stop the the conflict It they just seem to evolved it to be slightly more progressive and slightly more moderate Which i'd say, you know, if they're at all sincere about it. I think it's a step in the right direction But it's not hard to understand why israelis are not are still quite skeptical of Their progress especially after especially after october 7th. We need to understand that, you know the past few years We've had relative quiet with famas Uh israel and famas has been on surprisingly good relations You know recently israel Enacted a new policy to let 15 000 gossans into israel every day to work to help bolster the The palestinian economy and certainly that that does help israel as well because it's it's cheap labor Let's be honest, but that was a good faith measure And after two years of quiet and after this policy to let gossans into israel There was a surprise attack which ended up being the deadliest day In jewish history since since the holocaust so You know, even if israelis were starting to believe that there is some possible future with famas Now the general consensus Is that they need to go and interestingly, you know a poll came out A year ago they they pulled Palestinian citizens of israel and asked them if they identify with the state of israel and 50% said they do Some could see that as positive. Some can see it as not a great sign After october 7th that number went up to 70% So the solidarity in the state of israel was actually at an all-time high even amongst palestinian citizens of israel So it's it's something interesting to note If you're like a minority group within a with uh, I mean like I mean I can see how that's easily uh, you know, um You're doing that just on paper, right? So like if i'm Say jewish in like, uh, italy and then there's all a sudden like a rise in anti-semitism. I'm gonna be like, yeah guys I'm Italian. I'm with you like, you know, I wouldn't necessarily uh put too much stock in that poll, but Yeah, I think I you know, I think there's a case to be made that perhaps they were scared that There would be some kind of consequence Uh, if they didn't like the you know, you you could say they didn't trust there was a legit poll It was like the the the shabbat, which is the israeli equivalent to the fbi testing them, right? Perhaps Perhaps but you know, I I I just got back from three weeks in israel and I I spoke to some palestinian citizens of israel and You know, you could also claim they won't be honest to my face, but most of them are not happy about this Um, first of all, some of some of those killed and some of the hostages taken were were palestinian citizens of israel They were muslim Uh, one was actually returned today but also, you know, this created a record level of of fear amongst uh You know jews have a record level of fear and islamophobia currently So it's not it palestinian citizens of israel are not happy that these attacks happen because it puts their their Placing in israeli society at at a more challenging place But yeah, we could speculate as to where it comes from certainly I want to um I want to you know I don't want to get stuck on a semantic argument like but we did talk about genocide briefly and jeff I just want to make one point why I think it's important to be specific with how we Define terms because the second we're not specific. That's actually what the conversation becomes about and I I really Don't like when conversations are wasted on on defining terms in semantics because I think it really gets us away to much more important conversations And I think by and large large despite this being a Debate it's it's been respectful and I think there's been a lot of uh insight that has come from uh Come from this conversation. So that's why I really urge people to Be accurate with terminology and that's why as someone who genuinely cares about making progress I'm not going to shy away from the term ethnic cleansing But I generally push back on genocide But we could also have a conversation on proportionality, you know israel's level of proportionality In gaza has been the highest level. It's ever been out of any gaza conflict Um international law is extremely vague in what level of proportionality you can engage in which is unfortunate Because it's very hard to hold a country accountable for breaking international law due to proportionality um But you know that I think that's a legitimate conversation and criticism that can be made of israel Well, I've been very clear on genocide and I've used the article to un convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide And definitely what israel commits right now is qualifies under this definition Um, and yes, uh, as far as proportionality, uh, we can blur the line however you want But if it's not disproportionate to be bombing a hospital Where you know, there will be hundreds of civilians affected by this strike Only to find a couple of machine guns or cadetsny cubs in the basement Four of them with a mortar cycle with a rope And start arguing in a video as israel did last week That the rope is a demonstration that some act of hostage taking must have been happening Where it was just a small segment of a rope I think we have reached the point of ridicule here I think we have reached a point where if that is not disproportionate hundreds of civilian lives for Four guns that that weren't even neutralized during the strike It was neutralized after when the israeli army entered in for their propaganda video If that's not disproportionate, nothing ever will be Who questions, uh, just for clarification on terminology to jf Did the germans commit genocide against the jews in the in europe during world war two and did the turks Commit genocide against their amenians That is beside the point and i live in canada where i can get imprisoned to answering your question in certain ways Therefore i refuse to answer Yeah, that was what was expected So it's it seems like actual instances of genocide are not defined as genocide but you and not i mean i would i would agree with jeff That it's a genocide. I mean if we're saying like for example, if you want to um, i'm in a more safe country I guess but if i want to say like the i think the holocaust happened. Okay. Um, I question the Well, that's that's good But already points to you for that I question the death toll but i question the death toll for a lot of things like when they say like victims of communism or Uh victims of like the native american genocide and certain stuff like that like a lot of the numbers seems they're they're just estimations, right? So and that's fine, right? Um, it doesn't mean something didn't happen, right? Um, I would still say like, uh, like an incomplete genocide is still a genocide It's genocide. So i definitely agree with jeff. So um If if you guys if you guys really really want to stick on the topic of how we define genocide I'd be happy to do so, but I I think it's going to take us away from more important things, but um You could you could read uh, you read the definition if if you look at every point you said that actually israel in fact Is not doing that Uh, because all all of it comes down to Intention as stated in the definition you read to destroy a population Israel has every means to destroy the palestinian population Yet it's tripled in size. So there's a very weak case to be made Uh for genocide I think there's a strong case that you made a jf that it could the israel is using disproportionate force I wouldn't even push back on that. Um So again, I'd rather steer the conversation in in directions that your point here seems to be, uh, the genocide could be happening But it's not uh in whole because no survivors and they have they have successfully bred into a larger population That is nowhere in the un uh definition because it says in whole or in part a national Ethnical racial or religious group It makes no doubt that a part of the palestinian group has been subject to a killing Members of the group they have been killed. We have seen their bodies on cameras for the last two weeks So there's no doubt that it's a partial genocide that is ongoing right now Wait, wait, wait real quick. So The police in the america, they're genocide. They're genociding black people because they kill black people Is is that is that really how broadly we wanted to find genocide whenever one group kills another group? It's genocide. That's that's not how the definition is intended to be used. I'm sorry Uh, there could be a situation in which civil police participate to a genocide Definitely would you deny this? No, but but but to say that because police kill Members of a group that's not that's not what defines genocide. I mean clearly that's not How the definition is meant to be used? Well, if it was done with an entom to destroy the group and there can be no doubt that The people who are directing these That are turning gaza in rubbles. There can be no doubt that they intend to do that They can there can be no doubt that they understand that bombs will result and these cities being reduced to rubbles So I have a question for you Do you know how you know how many bombs have been dropped on gaza since october 7th? No Around 15,000 and you know how many people have been killed according to the gaza ministry of health around 14,000 Israel's currently averaging less than one death per bomb. How is that even possible in one of the most densely populated? cities in the world if there's not if the intention is to maximize civilian harm How is it that israel has not successfully? Um committed genocide and reduced the population when they have the military means to do so. What does actually stop them? Because the intention is not merely to maximize civilian damage The intention is also to win a press war a war for the mind and to convince the rest of the world as we see in those Videos that are totally produced for the english population because you can see israelis speaking in english in them They want to win the hearts of the american empire of the british And so they they're not just interested at killing as much patersonian as they can They're interested in doing it in a way that that reduces their cost to do it and in a way that still looks like It could be argued to be self-defense Yeah, the the argument would be made is that israel can't just go we're in uh the information age, right? you can't just go out and Do a Holocaust, right? Like uh, there's no way that would be possible. So you have to do it discreetly and it goes back to um my initial point where uh the original founder of zionism literally admitted that they have to discreetly Um get rid of the population So when they're making their colonial projects, so and then that's why I said like maybe me and you a dark can agree that um You know what's happening is bad and you want a two-state solution But you're way more fair-minded than the people in power and the large percentage of the israeli population. So I mean the How I explain it unofficial position of israel has essentially been that there is no two states There's only one state of israel and they want greater israel So their whole thing is to ethnically cleanse like you can mince words about is a genocide as ethnic cleanse It doesn't matter like the larger point is is that they are trying to Discreetly move the population to where they can always have at least a way To spin it that it was self-defense, right? Right, right? So, you know, I think you you make a good point that in today's age It's it's much harder to genocide a population because everything is recorded and I think You know, the case could be made that that is why israel won't commit a genocide Not that they are doing it But behind closed doors because as we know they can't they can't do behind closed doors And and I think if we were to just use the term ethnic cleansing We we wouldn't even have um a disagreement here and that's why I'm I'm urging us to be accurate in our terminology So we could get on to actually actual, you know Issues of moving forward So for the sake of the argument, right? I'll use I will use ethnic cleansing, but when they force The gossin self right now, okay Are they not ethnically cleansing and then they're telling them? Yeah, if if israel lets gossins return To north gaza then that would not be ethnic cleansing if they do know they're shooting them During this fire Right now gossins have attempted to come back into the north and they're being shot at by the idea So this it was back to jf to the jf saying and like I saying that I don't believe israel will ever Uh and ever wants the two state because all their actions point that they're just trying to move themselves And then in 10 20 years they can restart this whole charade and then do it again And then eventually there is no gaza and then they just move back to the west bank And they're just going to do it and in 100 years they will be greater israel and they'll just have can slowly done it So I'd like to give you a little bit of hope on this issue I do agree that if they're not allowed to move back then that is that is by definition ethnic ethnic cleansing I'm not convinced. That's what's going to happen. I think We know that there's a lot of tragedy that has come out of this recent, um conflict Uh, but one of the positive things that we could almost be sure of it's that benjamin netanyahu is done Right 75 of israelis think he's unfit to serve Uh, so we will have new leadership and it's not like we're going to have some revolutionary progressive Um peacemaker, but we are going to have somebody who's more moderate than than benjamin netanyahu And when we when we look at recent polling, uh, one poll showed 20 percent The other poll showed 30 percent of israelis Supporting building settlements within gaza. So there's no political will currently to to build settlements within gaza israelis don't want it And in fact, if we look back historically, you know, israel has always had this expansionist segment of of uh, Of society and the only way they've continuously made the case for expansionism is not on ideological grounds It's not on uh religious grounds It's always been on on grounds of security and it's why I my entire opening statement was to talk about um security being essential for jews because what that does is it weakens the expansionist segment of israeli society So the israeli population is currently more radical than they've ever been and that's because violence radicalizes people And palestinians are more radicalized than they've ever been because they've been subject to violence for For a century now, right? So Whatever we do moving forward, it's I think it's essential for us to renounce violence and and recognize the right self-determination of of both people And I think also we need to call on both populations to To acknowledge that they are part of the problem and can do so much more to bring us closer to peace, right? There's this whole notion Israel's doing everything right and palestine's bad or palestine's doing everything right in israel's bad But clearly clearly both sides are are far from where they need to be to be partners in peace And I think we actually care about solving the conflict. It's essential to urge both sides To come forward and do what's necessary to solve this thing Look, um, so your guys is an initial point for example, like justice talked about like the moral claim and whatever I mean, I don't I think all that is wrong I mean the only reason that I think israel can exist is that it's a pragmatic reality at this point Um, and you know, I'll agree with you on that but even when is palestinians Peacefully attempt anything like they're met with violence. So when there was the march of return Uh, palestinians were sniped. I mean these were peaceful protests marching to To palestine and israel and then they were just sniped and then you have israeli soldiers Just killing people and then bragging about it When interviewed on like harayats, uh, I don't know how if i'm pronouncing pronouncing that right, but I mean I I get what you're saying and like you're way more reasonable Then like I said the people in power, but and you know, hopefully that is um A bright spot for the future, but I mean as of right now I mean all hamos and palestinians have known is violence and even they peacefully do something and they get sniped at they Uh throw rocks they get killed and children get arrested like There's no winning right now. So I think you're way more honest than justice in this argument but you know, I don't At least you're recognizing the initial thing is a form of colonization and ethnic cleansing. So All right, so let's test out this this uh, this question of Justice's fairness. Hussein, would you say that the attacks on israel and october 7th were a form of ethnic cleansing? No, it's uh, it's a it's a form of uh, you could argue it's a form of terrorism Like the way that the ira gun used to terrorism is an effective political tool I mean you could say terrorism isn't morally justified like it's not morally okay Don't get me wrong and clip that out guys, but I am gonna say that is it can be effective I mean when israel is normalizing with the entire arab world and telling arab countries to just forget about the palestinians And net and yahoo saying oh, we're just gonna like slowly annex them. I mean Yeah, they have to do something. I mean again, I don't agree with it They could have tried to peacefully protest but first but this is Hamas we're talking about but you know You're again justice you're ignoring Like the whole start of the conflict which is I stole your house and then offered you 20 of the stuff Back or like jeff said 50 percent You're like, yeah, just accept it now. They should accept it pragmatically. That's why plo has asked for 67 borders That's why Hamas has asked for 67 borders, but net and yahoo is not for that So like what do you want like a dar? you know agrees um probably with 67 borders, but you know Hopefully that's a future. I'd like that but For now, it just seems like we're gonna have a cycle of violence where like me and jeff are saying We can't believe anything is real sass because they haven't shown to be good faith actors at all And a dar is at least admitting to the pragmatic realities of it and like the government currently in power While justice is living in la la land justice is Absolutely in agreement with the dar on potential solutions Um, justice is not in la la land when you talk about the 47 un partition plan that was rejected by the arabs and a five nation coalition tried to eradicate the the jewish movement for an independent homeland. Um, so that's not that's not La la land that's history You're using the correct terminology. They didn't say genocide jewish people. They said not have a jewish state so there's no and when What's wrong with how well do And how well do jews fair in Majority muslim nations that are surrounding. They were fine up until the creation of israel and that's why they all fled There's plenty of mr. Mr. Octi jews, which I don't even agree with the term because they're kind of taking away their racial identity, but um They lived there fine under turkish and uh, muslim empires now there were flare-ups. I'm not going to say like every actor was good, right and that Specific muslim groups didn't treat people badly like that's entirely possible. So well If if I if I may speak to that, you know If we compare jews living in the middle east to jews living in europe, it was better to be a jew in the middle east than in europe historically um Not not sure anymore, right clearly, but jews were never we were we were living as second-class citizens in the middle east And there were instances of violence towards us. Um, and just the fact that you need to think that After after the establishment of the state of israel Uh jews were displaced from the countries they were living in which shows how Unstable their security in those lands were if the creation of of a jewish state could cause the populations to turn on them They clearly weren't as safe as as one would hope um And again, I don't I don't like to think that the past is deterministic of what the future needs to be You know, I tell people who are very unhopeful about the future of Israelis and palestinians living together or palestinians ever accepting Israelis on the land It's that look how much europe has evolved. They used to be pretty horrible to live be jewish In europe and and the conditions have improved significantly at least uh after world war two. They're now deteriorating again um I'm interested though, uh hussein You said the term is mizra mizrachi jews, which means jews from the east. You don't agree with that term. Can I can I know why? Uh, it's because uh, supposedly, uh, they're um How do I explain it one? It's Historically was never used. It's a sociological term that is literally just the heber word for easter and it was invented upon the state of israel So they're just trying to harm harmonize uh, israeli citizens um, so That's kind of why because essentially they are either arab jews or tunisian jews or moroccan jews They belong to those states and then you're essentially saying well Actually, you don't belong to morocco and you're not moroccan It's a way to um It's a way to further the zionist project and get them to no longer associate with morocco or tunisia And then actually get them to flee and go go to israel, which is the stated goal of zionism So that that's why I I I have a problem with it because like i'm an arab american, right? I don't consider myself not american just like jeff said He's a french canadian. He doesn't have citizenship to france, right? So If I was to go ahead and like start Inventing like a term, right? You know to get me to leave or or go abroad or something like it becomes problematic. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah So interestingly, you know, I'll give a little more insight as to how Mizrahi jews actually view themselves because in a sense it is a term that encompasses jews from All different countries in the middle east, but they actually have they still take pride in The country they came from a few generations ago some moroccan jews You know, they have moroccan food they take pride in moroccan food In fact, the mizrahi jews are in agreement in making fun of how much better their food is than ashkenazi food And most ashkenazis would agree a lot of our food was uh influenced by eastern europe while there was uh There's was influenced by north africa in the middle east So but but so they still do take pride in the countries they they came from I I understand that but how is it how can you say so for example, here's something that's really annoying, right? So you'll have moroccan jewish people, right? And there's tunisian jewish people when I visited tunisia, they're great, right? No problems with them. They live they're fine Okay, they make tunisian food, right? So imagine them going to israel right and then all of a sudden some ashkenazi jewish person will come to new york And then make a restaurant and call it israeli food when it's moroccan And that's like super common now in the states that they'll literally the the meme would be israeli food Right, like they're stealing the food. So it's not a part of ashkenazi culture or jewish specific And they're trying to call they're literally trying to colonize the food man like How can you make these when they're literally propagandized and stealing the food like they can't even admit that the food is arab or food is moroccan or north african They can't even admit it. That's the level of like It's it's interesting, you know Food is is interestingly a sensitive subject, but I'd like to offer a different perspective here First of all when ashkenazi is open up israeli restaurants moroccan israelis are not In any way offended by it, but essentially what happened was You know when when the state of israel was created it gave an opportunity from jews from all over the world to Return to the land whether because they had to flee the land they were in or they just hoped of a better life In the in the state of israel So you had this meshing of cultures, right? Because when jews were were in the diaspora when they were in countries all over the world They adopted a lot of the culture of of that nation So israel became this very interesting melting pot of different ethnicities in different cultures um And that melting pot whatever that is has been termed by israelis as israeli So you have israeli food They call it israeli food and a lot of it comes from the middle east But this was brought there by jews who now consider themselves israeli so it's jews being a part of the middle where it comes from if it was a combination of like ashkenazi food and misrati food Sure, that's fine, but you're literally taking moroccan food and calling it like you're really calling it Which is so insulting after the land has already been stolen And i'm pragmatically having to agree with you that we should have a two state And then you can't even admit that like right now you're like you're defending the stealing of food, dude Like just admit I'm i'm i'm trying i'm trying to explain to you where it comes from And and the reason why you'll see it is because People living in israel israelis this is the food they know to be israeli it was brought to them by israelis who Generations ago came from another country. I'm not going to say it shouldn't be offensive to arab countries or palestinians I can understand it's seen as a form of food colonization But it it also ignores the reality that jews have been a part of the middle east for thousands of years So this food is just as much jewish as it is Arab because jews have been living there and actually the first reference of hummus Seems to come from the the Torah they talk about this chickpea spread or this lent this bean spread which was served, right? so If anything and again, i'm not going to say don't be offended by because i understand given the nature of the conflict It seemed like just another form of of colonization But i think our love for the same food and our love for the same land and the fact that we can Both consider ourselves to be indigenous depending on how we want to define indigenous We should use this not as a reason to fight but as unifying factors between us because i think if we have any Hopes to solve this conflict. We need to recognize that neither israelis or palestinians are going anywhere We're both part of this land We both have a right to live here and if we could find more things to unify on i think we're better off because of it So i understand why it's offensive, but i think we we should turn it into something to bond over And perhaps for a next debate we could open up on this question of is something being in the Torah Make it a thing that belongs to the jewish people today because there are people like osama ben laden Who argue that they are the true inheritors of the Torah and that the jews today identify as jews when you look At someone like lex freedman He looks very eastern european to me doesn't look like someone who had much ancestry in the middle east And so there may be a case to make that the chickpeas of the Torah Actually were properly inherited by what we call today muslims which comes from populations which formerly would have been called jews Yeah, so ashkenazi jews, uh, if you break down ashkenazi jewish dna, it's around 50 percent middle eastern It's it's 11 teen and interestingly palestinians and jews shared dna Which we're talking about unifying factors. Let that be another one. Let us give every single person living on the land A dna test and publish it. I think that would probably Carry a lot of weight, but for the record if it hasn't been made clear I don't think the the Torah gives any legitimacy For for statehood. I mean i'm jewish, but i'm an agnostic so You know i'm jewish by ethnicity it's it's the people i'm from but it's certainly not a religion I believe in You know about how uh supposedly all the ashkenazi jews uh jews can uh Trace their dna from four, uh jewish converts that were supposedly not middle eastern For looking at the test. Yeah, but that that's been widely debunked Okay Yeah, yeah, you're referring to the kazaar theory, correct? Uh It was uh Studies traces ashkeni roots to european women who converted to judeism and they're like from rome Yeah, it's it sounds like the kazaar. I mean just based on logic We we know that like all that means is there only four jews left or every jew is just the descendant of four people So what happened all the other jews did they just uh stop it stop intermittent I mean there are bottlenecks in evolution it can definitely happen at some point you have to have a bottleneck and at some point you come from Four organisms That's fine homo sapiens themselves had a very small bottleneck. So so Uh, that's true, but to think the bottleneck would be as um small as four and that would That would make the entire ashkenazi population But it's not even something worth debating because we have dna test and uh It's it's pretty pretty extensive Ashkenazi dna and within ashkenazi dna. It's not all the same, right? There's different like haplo groups within the dna, but it's between 40 to 60 11 team. So You know that that's what the test show and and even even though like look, I don't have a typical Middle eastern look i'm 99.8. Um ashkenazi, but I also don't look Super European right. I don't I don't wear sunscreen. I don't get burnt Clearly my skin is a slightly different composition than the than the average So we're we're a little bit of a of a mix Good question. If you were like 98 italian, but like 2 ashkenazi jew, why would you consider yourself a jewish person instead of just italian? Well Well, i'm 99.8 ashkenazi. No, no, no, I understand that i'm saying like a thought experiment say you were like Say you're like a typical polis or german jew person who's a largely atheist and uh, you know Is uh 90 russia or something why would you consider yourself that you need to leave russia? Like now now per se or like I I think what what you're referring to is israel's uh law of return Which is not based off of jewish law, right? So jewish law says your mother needs to be jewish for you to be jewish Or you need to go through an official conversion The state of israel said that you just need to be jewish according to hitler Right because the whole idea of the state of israel is is protection So hitler didn't care about what the jewish law said He saw something wrong with the ethnicity. He thought our our ethnicity something about our blood was tainted And we need to be exterminated right thought there was something inherently wrong with our dna So he didn't care if it was just our mother being jewish, even if we were like one fourth jewish That was enough for us to be considered jews in the eyes of the nazis So you could have situations where there's russians and and you brought up russia because this is an example where the law certainly has been exploited There has been a fair bit of russians who Don't have don't consider themselves jewish they They might have some jewish dna But they the life in israel is better than in russia they look for for working opportunities So they exploited the law of return in order to to move To israel so that's that certainly happened and there's even been pushback You know, there's been some talk of it in israeli politics about not allowing this to happen anymore But but i will go on to say i think generally speaking it's the the reason why it's been accepted is because You know a lot of the russians coming over they were like heavily educated highly educated And considered like similar culture to ashkenazi jews So it wasn't seen as a threat to to let them come join the the workforce So in your eyes, it's okay to have like an ethno-nationalist state Well clearly, you know, i would prefer there to not be ethno-national states But i think that in the case of israel and palestine both both people prefer an ethno-nationalist state and i think I think for for obvious reasons a bi-national state at this point would be bloody So yeah, i'd rather an ethno-national state than than Than bloodshed unlike we've ever seen on the land If if both people have a different idea of what it means to self-determine They have a different idea of what their state should look like religion culture and law Why haven't compete over control over one government? You know, it just it doesn't make any sense. So Um, you know ethno-nationalist prefer to that for sure I'm saying I think you should ask your I think you should ask your um debate partner whether or not he's in favor of ethno-national states Uh, I mean I'm sure I'd be kicked out, but But it's fine. I mean like uh the Except for the jews like, huh So we would be in favor and except for in this case well, if you're uh It sounds like a dara is in a way like saying like uh Right to self-determination and like if you want to live in a religious society You should have uh that right and then if you want to live in like a ethno-nationalist society You should have that right so it doesn't sound like he's necessarily disagreeing with maybe jeff's Uh ideas of uh self-determination of uh groups. Yeah, well, uh, all I ever advocated for is what adar just advocated for saying Hey, why create conflict where there does not need to be conflicts different people have different Tastes for how to self to to be sovereign to self manage And to the extent that people can be different enough that they shouldn't fight for the same government. Let us create Let us create different countries for people to live with the likes of themselves with whom they can agree that's What adar said of israel I would simply expand it and not hold the double standard that he holds Which is that let's do it for israel and palestine, but let's not do it for ireland I say let's do it for ireland too I I actually you're accusing me of a double standard, but I'm um I didn't make the case that no other place in the world shouldn't have the option for an ethno-state I think there's a lot of ethno-states in the world and I'm not advocating for for them to end I think there's some instances of nations that have beautiful beautiful multiculturalism I think probably the united states is is the best example. I think In europe we're seeing a bad result of multiculturalism and it seems like there's growing tension between different ethnic populations. So You know, my my perspective has always been try to be grounded in pragmatism try to be grounded in reality and in fairness Um, so i'm not you know all good. You want an ethno-national state? Take it just let's try to find a solution that that that you know, it's fair for for all people Yes, so all four of us. So all four of us would be in agreement that So all four of us would be in agreement that pragmatically Uh allowing for an israeli net ethno-state would be a solution to the to the current problem So that's great that we've come to that pragmatic solution There we go win for modern day debate Hey, that's always fun I'm not I'm not so sure if I agree with it because it's hinging on a jewish supremacy. So And i'm sure that we wouldn't agree on the drawing of the borders Yeah, and who's saying you're an arab-american. So an ethno-state in america would not be good for your side You know, I can understand why I mean, I'll get kicked out. But you know if america look if america actually promised to not meddle in the middle east And they're telling me to leave like if I can sell my stuff and like leave i mean and i'm forced to i mean That would just be a pragmatic reality, right? So or we could leave minnesota to you Yeah, or I can be a token arab, you know, like I can have a you know They can put me in court as a judge and I could be like see like, you know, we have one arab guy in All right, so it's up to you fellas if you had anything else you wanted to unpack This has been a really good discussion I've been able to just hang out in the live chat and just kind of do the host work rather than moderate because you You fellas have been so amicable and just giving each other time and space to make your points I appreciate that but if you had anything else you wanted to unpack before we get into the q&a Maybe now make your chance to say hey you said this I want to unpack that so have that or fellas I'm happy to make one one more one more statement, you know, um So You know as I said, I think that the fastest way for a better life for palestinians is for them to come to terms with Israel's existence and I do understand that it's very hard for them to Accept israel in its current state. So I also think we should work towards transforming israel And what I want to urge activists from all over the world um If you if you want to improve the lives of palestinians if you want to see Justice and self-determination for palestinians work to transform israel rather than dismantle israel now Here's a bit of good news israelis are very big on criticizing their own government prior to october 7th We had eight months of weekly protests record levels of protests um But israelis will not rally to their own destruction So they're not going to support this movement to dismantle israel because they view it as a call for their their actual death So what i'm calling on activists around the world palestinians and israelis to build a broad coalition to work to transform israel Which comes with accepting israel's existence as a fact And and I truly believe that we can find a A path forward that ensures security justice and peace for all people All right, my problem with seeing a path forward like this is that I see even if I make a scenario theoretically in my mind where Forget about the west bank forget about gaza in fact forget about the whole The whole muslim population of israel even in that scenario I don't see a israel fundamentally feeling safe And I don't see them as being safe effectively because they are still surrounded by countries that are arab They are still very aggressive in the region. We see them striking libanon syria We see them meddling in the whole affairs of the middle east and things that they where they don't belong And so i'm afraid that even a local path for peace between The palestinians and israel Wouldn't solve the fundamental problem Which is that this area was a terrible area to pick to go live to and it needed way too much suffering to ensure a land for the jewish people Well, everybody seems to be doing the one-minute closing. So It's up to you guys if you want to bounce this back or if you want to like do a close Yeah, I want I want to make one point, you know on what jf said I actually think that there's a reason to be Yeah, I think there's a reason to be hopeful in terms of the trajectory of the middle east I mean It israel has had like a soft piece with jordan for for decades now and a soft piece with egypt for decades now We were assigned a peace agreement with the united arab Emirates with Bahrain and with morocco Things are warming up with saudi arabia and even now with with the bloodshed We're seeing in gaz it seems like the the deal with saudi arabia still on the table So I I think the trajectory generally speaking is going in the positive direction if we zoom out if we zoom into israelis and palestinians Yeah, we have Both populations are the most radical they've ever been so there's going to be a lot of work to be done But in terms of the greater context of the middle east There's reason to be hopeful that we can uh that we can you know have a peaceful future Uh on that I mean, I don't like I said, uh, I think you're being way too optimistic. I think netanyahu's uh Whole plan and uh anyone who's gone. He's gone. You know he's gone but I mean the the whole thing is you use the soft power and the Middle east you get everyone to agree and then you can just take the land to make greater israel I mean like just playing the long con politically. So I don't they can so again, I'd like to Jump on hussain here for you know his injustice. So I'm going to bring some justice to this Of playing the genetic fallacy with zionism, but refusing the genetic fallacy with hamas So this is this is an important, you know, it's it's it's good for the goose But it's not good for the gander if hamas can change Then can't the current uh, they can't the quote-unquote zionist faction also change as history goes as history goes marching forward So it's a genetic fallacy and if again hamas can change their charter, for instance, and we can and we're supposed to believe that those changes are For real then why can't the quote-unquote zionist faction also change? um From their original uh stayed in the tents Yeah, um, I mean, I'm not saying it can't so I'm saying I don't believe it right now But again the counterfactual of That I'm proposing and which I've proposed several times in this is look at the 21 percent Arab population inside of larger israel That is the proof of the change So right now they have 21 percent say that continues to grow and then it becomes 30 40 50 percent You're just gonna see a spike in People who are afraid of demographic changes Which is the case in any nation just like america just like europe when europeans want to cook out Kick out essentially muslims because they're saying they're being invaded You have elections of like more and more right wing people So we could have for example like in five years ten years like a peace and relatively um easy How do I explain it uh relatively peaceful times right demographics will slowly shift and then as soon as it gets to more Arab people They'll just reignite their prior zionism because it's in the constitution It's in the declaration of independence that they want a jewish majority state So like I said if they don't change those things then why would I ever believe this is why And this is why we come back to the pragmatic solution that all four of us agreed on That the best idea is to have two ethnics Ethno states one for the palestinians and one for the israelis, but this is contingent upon the palestinians agreeing to having a state without the You know the intent of Retaking all of the entire land of israel that is not going anywhere The thing is we can't even get this guarantee on the israeli side based on their behavior They've historically been progressing. So I wouldn't take that guarantee on the israeli side Yeah, I would say that the last 60 years has shown that the israelis will retaliate yes, of course But not initiate and again I would even like kicking this over into another sphere not necessarily connected to this one But again just as a counterfactual or one that we should look at is like how to resolve the Russian-Ukrainian war that you have to admit certain realpolitik situations Crimean is not going anywhere so forth and so on So if we can't base our solutions on some western liberal utopia utopian solution what what would be the ideal ideal we have to go with what is Realpolitik on the ground and what the counterfactuals show would actually be workable I mean, I don't uh, we could talk about liberalism, but I don't I've explained it people who espouse liberalism don't believe in liberalism So realpolitik is essentially just having power and then power makes right and so other countries will do whatever they want So the only way that palestinians can ever ensure their Uh, statehood would be to have a military and a deterrent factor So, uh, we're essentially the only way the palestinians the only way the palestinians can ensure their statehood is by not attacking Uh population that is obviously technologically and militarily superior to them. That would be the first step But it's just you know, we can just say it's active defense. You know, we have our orwellian terms, you know They're just doing you could say that but then you would be wrong. Yeah, you're a gun Yeah, I think it you know, we like to have uh, you know these discussions on what does uh, the right to resist entail Or what does the right to self defense entail and I think a much better conversation is what is the result of this? resistance or what is the result of this self defense and You know, historically I've been very critical of israel's policy and gaza because they they claim right to self defense But I actually don't feel like it's made is really safer. So I don't think there's Even if you want to make the case that they have a right to retaliate in that way What is the result of that retaliation and I have the same exact critique for palestinian right to resist them I'm less interested in what rights they have in their resistance It's what resistance is going to lead them to better lives and achieving their goals of self determination So that's that's generally generally how I like to look at it So you guys not agree that israel if israel has the power israel has the might they're the ones who need to initiate a good faith action Um, which would be to offer up a realistic two state solution So until that then all the palestinians can do is what they're doing Uh, I'd agree with the first part of the statement that israel, you know having um, the power Needs to do a lot more, but I think that Israel cannot force palestinians to accept them So if we really want to solve this palestinians are also going to do the work and start renouncing violence And and make it clear that jews have a future on this land because right now the loudest voices in palestinian society talk about Cleansing the land of jews and you actually don't hear people speaking up against them and whether these people exist But they're just scared to speak up or they're just such a small minority We don't hear from them is unclear But it doesn't give israeli's confidence in in any solution when the only voices they hear are are That of violence and ethnic cleansing So no, I think the work needs to be done on on both sides israeli's need a palestinians need to accept israel's right to exist And israel needs to transform itself to be one that's easier for palestinians to accept I Mean it sounds like to answer who's saying his question. I would totally agree that israel having the upper hand um militarily economically Should be the ones to make the initiations of goodwill and peace like for instance the two years of work permits like for instance for instance seating gaza In 2005 these things are efforts that the israeli government has made towards uh peace on their borders with With the palestinians and the pal and the hamos control territory So I would really, you know that they do and they should and they do But is it enough has it been enough? I don't think so I think one of the things that we could all agree on though And you know, correct me who's saying if i'm wrong on this that one of the steps that that the west could take towards um helping israel go more in the right way of peace and not be so heavy-handed would be to not have such a cart launch support of israel militarily Just on everything israel wants to do it. Oh, it's great. Wonderful. Um, this is a big problem with the west seeing united states in particular seeing israel as their You know partner and just willing to fork over What seems to be almost unlimited amounts of military aid and support and this is also if you have a blank check You end up writing it, right? So this is one of the ways that we From the west can can help move towards peace is by saying no no no You actually have to find peace with your with your people on your borders and you don't have a blank check just to do every one Yeah, essentially like a more libertarian or um, even on ironically I have to say this like a isolationist slash American first policy that was actually like a effective like if they reduce the amount of budget to like give to governments That you're not essentially blank checking whatever they want to do And endorsing it you are forcing them to come up with pragmatic solutions where they have to play nice But america's current leadership doesn't seem to agree with either of us on that. So but I would agree. Yeah And again in these conversations we so often talk about the theoretical of what Oh, what should be done what should be done in the end of the day? I would like the viewers who are you know, 99 percent american most likely here on the modern day debates to think about You know encouraging your representatives in government to reduce military support to israel as a means for peace that is actually something that we can all agree Everybody in agreement. I already agree on that But well, I wanted to say something on on your point who's saying you know about military aid to israel Because I would also agree that I think If israel didn't get such a large amount of Foreign aid that and they would be More reliant on needing to find creative solutions And I think if israel does get that amount of aid it should be contingent on them Being actively engaging in the peace process. I don't think it should be an unconditional check But interestingly, you know, I want to bring insight as to where the force behind that money comes from Because a lot of people talk about like the pro-israel lobby and the pro-israel lobby certainly has power There's no denying that but there's there's one lobby. That's even more powerful and that's the That's the military industrial complex Right. So if you if you look at the the money that israel gets the four billion dollars 70 percent of that needs to be spent on weapons us weapons companies So that that check is essentially just a subsidy for for The us defense industry So i'm putting this out there because if if we want to change the dynamic, it's not just It doesn't only come down to accusing the the pro-israel lobby. It's also the the military industrial complex That's ensuring that that check remains a large and and you know consistent Well, yeah, that's true war is profitable and america would have to actually like go back to producing stuff to You know and not be faking If if they reduce the budget, yeah, so I agree all right Did you guys have any other comments or concerns before we move into the q&a? I know that this is uh very We were waiting to do this for a while on modern day debates So there's a lot of things that have happened and a lot of thoughts. There's a lot of history So any other thoughts gentlemen before we jump into our q&a Excellent. All right. I I gave you your chance. That was all you got. That was it We're going to go into the q&a everybody. So if you're hanging out in the live chat right now Hit the like button. Uh, you know, share this out hit the subscribe Uh, yes, I see you there is uh, I'm glad that you're hanging out in the live chat along with everybody else That's hanging out in the live chat and keeping things lively We're going to move into our super chats So if you have a question for any of our speakers or a question that you think we haven't addressed Get it into a super chat and we will for sure ask that on stream So stupid horror energy asks for ten dollars with the un red cross icg etc affirming the fourth janeva conventions of simplicity applicability Sorry to occupied lands. How does israel justify west bank settlements under an international law and their effort on peace I messed up that one word that really probably threw you off with the un red cross icg etc affirming the fourth janeva conventions Applicability to the occupied lands. How does israel justify west bank settlements under international law and their effect on peace? That's a big question Yeah, so i'm i'm not an expert on international law So i'm not i don't know that aspect of it But i think there is generally speaking a consensus in international law that uh the settlement building is illegal The way israel currently justifies it There's there's two justification one is really like a historical slash religious justification that that's our historic homeland and You know We have the right to live and build there the other is for security. It's kind of seen as a buffer zone between In enemy population and israel proper The historically the majority of the israeli population hasn't been in supportive of Settlement building, but they've kind of just been indifferent to it. So they haven't actively fought against it It hasn't been important enough to them those who want to build settlements has been very important to them So they've been actively fighting so even though it's been Let's call it a large minority. It's been a way more Way more energized force in israeli politics and quite unfortunate too because you know It's it's definitely made the conflict harder to solve It's definitely aided in the radicalization of the palestinian people Not only by them losing hope at at the future of a state But also the more settlers that live in the west bank the the greater the security apparatus israel You know has there and that security apparatus keeps you safe, but it isn't inherently oppressive to palestinians So i think settlement building has been by and large You know counterproductive to it to any any desirable goal of Of peace and reconciliation that being said i do think in an ideal situation You should have the right to live on all parts of the land the same way You know israel has 20 palestinian population In an ideal situations you can live on their historic homeland But it shouldn't need to be done by force and with inactive military keeping them safe Any other thoughts on the panel there? Yeah, I would just mostly agree with the darn All right, well, let's carry on everybody We got a couple more super chats coming in here. We just put up a new poll there So let's continue on Palio conservative says why can't israel adopt a one-state solution without an identity a core identity And just have a liberal secular democracy with one person one vote like j orgs in the west Want every western country to be Because democracy ends up being another game of power and another game of existence. We see it in western civilization Uh, ultimately there's a group that controls democracy and it becomes a form of violence itself When that group imposes its will to the rest of the nation Yeah, I actually agree with that for the most part I think you're gonna have two populations who currently hate each other competing over demographic control It's just gonna end in disaster Pretty much. Yeah, so I mean, we all agree no democracy Yeah, democracy is just yeah that so well no democracy You know one state solution unless we're really talking federation of sorts and you have a system of checks and balances and You know dual control. I think that that could work. But like this whole idea that always fails though Look in america. They just seed more power to instead of states people don't want to rule Their states they just give up power it's in the national government. Yeah I think in in in america. I mean america is failing for many reasons I don't know how much it comes down to their federation But from what I understood the majority of the world's population currently lives in some kind of a federated system You know, you have um, I think even china might be uh, some no china is yeah, but I just mean uh Happens they inadvertently always seed more power to national governments, which then the national government has the most power and then they vote in and then the Majority dominant group is always going to dominate and oppress the others Well, that that's probably happening in china as well in all fairness But I think like switzerland is probably a good example of the federation that works, you know Because because switzerland maybe is a good example because you have like swiss german swiss swiss french and swiss italians, right? That you know a lot of swiss people can't even speak the same language, which is quite interesting and That's all raised not on religion as soon as you want to be religious. They start oppressing you and uh, you know, so Is currently muslims currently there in uh In uh, and you're up pretty much are like having the abaya band They're having their children taken away because they're teaching them Not in switzerland. Excuse me just in like europe in general. There's a couple of countries that it's happening. So I think it was sweden and then denmar in germany so And then france obviously he's always bad, but Yeah, I I would say one way to look at that is they're they're fighting back Not against the religion as much as they're fighting back against the culture that they view to be um Like antithetical to the western values that that they aspire, but you know, that's uh Whether it's justified or not. You know, I think that's probably what what drives it um and and for the record, you know, I think that there's uh You know humans have this like tendency to attribute uh Like hate to a certain group Uh, so for example, they'll see muslims doing something. So they'll say islam is the problem But all you do then is you really um demonize an entire group of people when you know Take the worst view one muslim has you're not going to find agreement amongst all muslims on that So why you demonize an entire group? Uh for the actions and beliefs of some so rather than talk about the group talk about the beliefs and the individuals rather than the group So that's just a A rule of thumb I like to go by and say the same thing with the talk about jews who have power right like There's a lot of anti jewish sentiment and they talk about jews and them having disproportionate power and that and their their agenda Well, I would say tell tell me who they are and tell me what they believe rather than making it about the jews Because then you really demonize all jews and most jews are not in these positions of power. So similar similar way of looking at it But a lot of those people are like secular atheists and they're pushing like a secular liberal agenda. So I would You're right the jews that have the most power are generally atheists are at the very least secular and uh And but but what's interesting is they're often accused of jewish supremacy So there's this interesting thing anti-semites do and and for the record I do think like the term racism and like the term transphobia anti-semitism has been way too broadly defined and and people You know of these groups just label Anyone that term that disagrees with them and it's tragic because it just dilutes the meaning of the term So when I say anti-semit, I actually mean somebody who has You know clear signs of anti jewish sentiment, but what anti-semites often do is they will um look at like writings in the Talmud, which is a Extension to the the old testament. It's it's essentially conversations that were had by jews While exiled so while they were oppressed. So, you know Unsurprisingly you have texts there that are anti Gentiles, which are non-jews This these were texts that were written while jews were oppressed by Gentiles So then what anti-semites will do they'll look at these texts and they say some pretty bad things about Gentiles Not things that are you know, should be believed or That are justifiable and that are akin to jews supremacy And then they'll attribute those beliefs to those the jews who have power and they'll say you see jews have disproportionate power And they have these supremacist views, but in reality the jews who have power Don't believe in the Talmud. They don't believe in the Torah They're atheists or some are just like secular jewish and have liberal values So it seems like they're connecting dots that ought not be connected And it seems like the bigger problem is that they might not like liberalism They they think liberal values are destroying the country And they think jews are some of the biggest propagators of these liberal values So they take issue with that. Well, if that's the case talk talk about liberal values and talk about the individuals You don't like pushing those views because there's many There's many christians doing that as well and even many muslims doing that So it's just a better less inflammatory way to talk about the things that we don't like Uh, yeah, I mean, I don't have a problem with that But if you say for example like george soros or like certain people are doing and pushing that kind of agenda Then you get labeled as an anti-semite for some reason Which is weird because i'm just talking about george soros and like specific people with a lot of institutions Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I I agree I I I think critique of george soros is legitimate and anybody calling Those who critique him anti-semitic I think they're doing a great disservice because anybody who's willing to name the name and name the action Is actually doing exactly what is needed to to solve these forms of group pay They're not contributing it to it and those who will just continue to label them Whatever that, you know, whatever term it is whether it's racist Sexist transphobic or anti-semitic. They're just contributing to to more of this problem. So I would agree with that. All right Well, let's try to get reality is the over The reality is the overuse of anti-semitism As a bludgeon is not help Just because ifrances don't support I think that we should the united states should cut back on the military support israel by no means makes me an anti-semite Um, so yeah, I would agree with that You anti-semite. Yeah, okay. We're in agreement again. Cool. Did you guys want to cook for a few seconds on that or do you want me carry on? Carry on Robin Webster, I'll smile There you go, uh, you know, I'm not I'm not ashamed. It's fine. I'm all gums. All right. Let's carry on Let's see. Uh, that was our first super chat from paleo australia a conservative australian. So thank you so much for that Uh, sunflower membership chat says everyone has been reasonable and respectful so far. Thank you Well, I think everybody has been absolutely wonderful We thought that this would be a really fiery and I I padded You know, I think everybody will tell you before we started this discussion I don't usually give a whole lot of padding of like, let's stay respectful. Let's keep things calm but this time I did and uh, these guys, I don't think I even had to give them that warning They just they know how to navigate this discussion without getting upset with each other and being Professional so you got to appreciate our speakers for that around virtual applause for them Let's carry on stupid horror energy asks just the name is real attacked egypt jordan and syria without being attacked Wait, sir, can can you Uh, I don't know enough about the history, but it seemed that the seven day war There was uh attacks toward israel No, no, no, that is a strike. They'll be literally immediate by the way You can you can look it up that they said that uh They what happened was from what I understand from the seven day war She's talking about now. By the way, she they're talking about now Israel's doing that But in the seven day war you can look into that. That's very debated. Um, and some Uh, Israeli supporters will say that it was a preemptive strike. So Can you um, I apologize. I I have a short attention span and got lost and thought for a moment What what were the countries that were? jordan, lebanon, syria, egypt I mean, it's it sounds like They're referring to the six day war because right now Can you ask for a clarification, uh, ryan, because they're referring to it happened now this year as well They well, they were first in lebanon and they've attacked areas of syria egypt as well Yes, they bombed Yeah, so if you can give us some clarification in the live chat or throw in another super chat We'd appreciate it but uh, let's keep you You got some more thoughts go ahead there. I could I could speak to to both really Israel is bombing lebanon every single day. I was I was just in northern israel You could hear the bombs and lebanon is is uh shooting rockets in israel every single day or shooting anti-tank Rockets so there's actually an active conflict there. It's just neither side wants it to fully escalate So they're kind of doing like a little tit for tat back and forth Um I'm almost certain this there was a there was a rocket shot. It might have not even been hezbollah It could have been a chamas faction within um Within lebanon that shot the first rocket which which started it Um, but israel does sometimes preemptively strike in syria, for example, like they'll see like weapons convoy That's connected to iran and and they'll preemptively strike it So it's not that israel doesn't engage in preemptive strikes ever that they sometimes do Uh, there was one there was one instance of a tank that was Some rocket or missile that was shot in egypt and israel very quickly Apologized israel has zero reason to attack egypt right now. We've been in a uh a soft piece with them for For decades now and and we like the relationship we have with them So there's no reason to escalate things with jordan or egypt. These are two countries. We haven't been in war with Uh for decades for talking about the sixth day war that was a preemptive strike you had many arab nations Putting military forces on the border of israel and on on arab arab radio You would hear them say the the days of israel are numbered We are going to destroy them. So it was a preemptive strike But it it certainly wasn't out of the blue. It was it was to a direct threat of of israel's destruction And you know israel dealt with it And again, you can make the case that they should have waited waited to be struck. But again, uh israelis Generally speaking would rather be despised than be dead Um, and I think this is essential to to remember when when you know looking how to how to move forward If uh, if we're talking about something that's going to put israelis in danger There's going to be resistance to it and it doesn't matter What term you want to use to describe israelis they're they're going to be they'd rather that that descriptor than than the loss of their life All right, any other thoughts on the panel before we move on I mean, there was a there's like a lead-up to it that I would say israel's aggression, but um That caused the power But yeah, I would encourage people to look into it Um, it's very debated a six the six day war. There's a military build-up in at least three countries Uh with extreme amounts of saber-rattling and direct threats Um israel said if the canal was closed they would attack the canal was then promptly closed. They attacked Um, so that was the story Yeah All right, but egypt closed closed it to uh to apply pressure to israel and the un to uh Supposedly help the palestinians. I think I remember right so Which you know while engaging in a While engaging a large-scale military build up build up on the border along with other nations So, I mean the question is again, do you want to be dead or not? Like yeah, I mean, I just can can we imagine for a moment and and again I understand that given how israel was created and given the injustice Uh towards palestinians. It's very hard to accept israel I I understand that and there's also a very strong honor culture in the in the middle east And that makes it even harder to to accept israel's existence But could you imagine that instead of spending all these resources and all this life on fighting israel that That um, you know palestinians would just focus primarily on on building themselves up and building up their own nations like all the Hundreds of millions of dollars that that hama spends on on building tunnels and rockets imagine if that was that was spent on building infrastructure for gossans And and that ultimately would be the fastest way to end the siege because the only way the siege is justified Is because it's it's obvious that if there isn't a siege more weapons would be imported into into gaza So sometimes it's better to to focus on building yourself than fighting an enemy and I'll give you a clear example This is actually what jews did jews were oppressed for for centuries in in europe And it's a different type of oppression, right? This is a call it like a colonial Anti-colonial conflict whereas in the middle where in europe it was more a minority group being oppressed But what jews did when they were oppressed they didn't they didn't start attacking civilians or attacking The state what they did was they just really focused on building themselves Focusing on on you know their own people and they eventually got to the point where they're now accused of controlling the world Think about that. Think about you know, oppressed population that you know The term ghetto was initially coined to describe a jewish neighborhoods. They were they were the first ghetto jews were extremely poor for many centuries And they rose up from the ashes to again the point where now, you know, we're hated for having too much power So, you know, let let this be inspiration that sometimes it's better to work on building yourself up than trying to defeat an enemy where When fighting this enemy only makes them hate you more and and and bite back harder Jf you're not in your head along. Did you have some thoughts? No No, okay, that's no problem. No, I was just reading my other screen That's fine. That's fine. Don't worry about that. My friend will carry on there. Uh, let's see Stupid horror energy. Thank you so much for that super chat. Watermelon. I'm much friend of your name 786 Why should we trust israel when they have? cahanists cahanists in government who rise on deter Is expulsion of all Arabs? between the river and the sea Mm-hmm Yeah, I mean, I think the fact that we have actual cahanists in government is Is is terrible and again the Israeli population is the most right-wing and the most radical it's ever been because conflict radicalizes people So let this be just another reason to to bring us away from violent conflict because it, you know If a population can be radicalized through violence, they could be de-radicalized from periods of non-violence And just so you know, the cahanist party was actually banned from Israel, right for a little context Mayor cahan was a very radical israeli rabbi and he wanted a israel to be a jewish theocracy and be to Remove all palestinians from the land And israel actually banned his party as a political party now we've really, you know the past decades of Netanyahu being in rule and and israeli is losing hope The right has certainly been strengthened and you definitely have a few people in power now that Adhere to his ideology, but it's definitely not the majority of israelis and again public opinion The only constant change and let this let this give us hope for what's possible, right? So if we if we have Years of calm and and work towards a peaceful solution Then you're going to see a less radical israeli population and with that a less radical palestinian population Oh, i'm muted. Look at that. Look at that. I have to hit that button. All right So we're we're going to go over our poll if any of our speakers wants to use the washroom They heard me. They can use the washroom. That's fine. Uh, yes use the washroom. That's fine So let's carry on. Uh, we have a poll in our live chat here. So if you haven't voted yet Uh, you know vote in the live chat, uh, whether you know, you thought jf or hussein or sawha or justice was the most compelling speaker Right now we have 46 for jf. So, uh, you know, if you if you feel differently Uh, right now that seems pretty one-sided So get your votes in before we close that out Uh, hussein has ducked out for a second here as i've given permission My ultimate permission to go and use the washroom if you need to or get yourself some water, whatever you need to that's cool Um, I will ask the next super chat. I see some action back there. I'm not sure if that's Hussein coming back, but yeah, that's fine I'm glad you can all hear us now if you don't if you haven't already hit the like button Share this out in those contentious spaces where you like to have these discussions. This is uh, definitely a different Type of conversation you're going to see happening in these spaces So our next super chat is coming in from chi industrial complex says silha Israel doesn't have a history of attacking palestinians when it's not under a threat of violence Please explain the reasoning behind the 82 lebanon war and the siege of baru and the atrocities It's a bra and a shatilla shatilla I'm I'm it admittedly not well enough informed to give to to give a proper take on this So I apologize, but I can't I can't answer this um, but generally speaking if you do look at the history of uh, Of israel's attacks on palestinians or other Arab nations. There's always been um, some Violence or threat of violence that has preceded it Um, and again, I think there's a legitimate case to make that israel has acted Disproportionately or acts disproportionately. So that's not the defense. I'm saying but generally speaking the israeli public Uh, don't you know, there's not going to be public support for attacks that that don't have a justification that's that's deemed necessary for security All right, any other thoughts on our panel before we carry on No I was busy being born and needed to so I don't remember. No, I'm kidding. The uh, the lebanon war had to do more with the explanation of the palestinian Organization that was inside of lebanon Um, and there was there was issues with there. So there's it's it's a confused Uh, bit like a lot of stuff But I would say that if you look into that that was not israeli aggression Gotcha any thoughts over there jf before we carry on. All right, you're shaking your head again Let's carry into the next question. Thank you so much for that suit over that first super chat there Chai industrial complex that we really appreciate the super chats. Keep them coming in if you want to keep Stirring the pot of our discussion Uh, so stupid horror energy asks us again with high civilian deaths high impact munitions In dense areas and harsh living conditions imposed How is this not considered a genocide? Hussain is just putting his headphones back on. Uh, can you hear us hussain? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll repeat the energy the the energy question stupid horror energy asks with high civilian deaths High impact munitions in dense areas and harsh living conditions imposed. How is this not considered a genocide? Let us start over. You know what? Let's start with you. Uh, uh dr and we'll move our way through sure, um Genocide is about intention and there's no intention to destroy the palestinian population and I would go on to say that there is a record number of israelis who would actually support genocide at this point in time um, but the reality is As I stated earlier Israel has dropped an average of one bomb on gaza per death How do you drop one bomb on a extremely densely populated area and kill only one person per bomb dropped? So I want to break down a little bit more about what israel is doing and again I think there's there's legitimate criticism of it. I think israel has uh committed multiple war crimes um In this round of violence and again, i'm not an expert on international law But I think there's a strong case to be made that israel is committing more crimes um the law of proportionality which actually, um Jf read earlier is one that's important to understand. It's actually an interesting, uh It's an interesting law because this is how israel justifies what it does So the rule of proportionality, this is how it's read requires that anticipated incidental loss of human life and damage to civilian objects should not be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage expected from destruction of a military objective Um, the problem with that is that that's highly subjective. How can you determine if the civilian damage Is excessive in relation to the military advantage, right? There's that's super up for interpretation So I think the law of proportionality needs to be modified in some way to make it a little bit more objective So the way israel looks at things You know They're not trying to maximize civilian harm because if they were trying to you'd have a much much much higher civilian death toll What they're doing is just Not caring all too much if civilians die if that means they get to kill some hamas members while they're doing it or destroy hamas infrastructure um, so let me give you an example. There could be a home where there is um Let's say there's hamas members in it. They have a calculation So, you know what there's three hamas members in it, but there's also a family in there israel might decide to bomb it They might uh, and you could very well Make the there's a strong case that that's disproportionate. That's a war crime israel sees it as okay You know civilians are dying as collateral damage and we're destroying hamas members In the instance when there's not no hamas members in there and they want to destroy Infrastructure that's embedded within civilian infrastructure. What they do is they actually shoot a warning shot They tell people to leave the homes They'll sometimes even call the people in the homes tell them to leave and then they'll destroy it because they're trying to cause maximal infrastructural damage while reducing civilian harm Keep in mind israel doesn't have anything to gain by killing civilians I mean, I I guess perhaps there's a case to be made that they have some incentive to kill journalists because journalists can report on their crimes So i'm not going to say that there's no incentive there But you're everyday civilian There's no incentive to kill because all that is is is horrible PR for israel and as we see israel tries You know very hard to win the PR war and unsuccessful and and quite frankly they've done an embarrassing job with some of the videos they've put out But what what is israel really gained from from killing civilians? They they have an interest to defeat hamas They haven't been interest to create maximum infrastructural damage and perhaps now they have an interest to move as many gauze and south as possible which would also justify them, you know Creating massive infrastructural damage the whole idea that they're indiscriminately targeting civilians and trying to cause as much civilian harm as possible Just isn't reflected here Adar keeps bringing back the they are not trying to maximize civilian death. That has never been our point Our point is the actions committed qualify under the term genocide. That's my point And i've never talked of maximization. Yes israel does have Probably a I wasn't speaking just to I was talking about what we hear online how they say israel is trying to you know Indiscriminately target civilians I know I I know based on the definition you read that it could be a you know partial harm But I still think based on the definition you read it does not meet the criteria of genocide And that's what I wanted to comment on this whole obfuscation over the word intent is absolutely ridiculous What adar is telling us is basically there might be a genocide happening, but it was unintentional Does it really matter at this point the word intentional and The degree of mens ria that you need to have when you decide to send 15 000 bombs toward a civilian population as far as i'm concerned any Intelligent human being with a hundred IQ should be able to conclude it's going to kill a lot of civilians. Therefore, it's intentional Yeah, I mean it may be crude to to say but you could say like say Uh, do I want to go there? Uh when hitler rounded up People in the ghettos right if he just started indiscriminately bombing them and then kept saying to the un Why aren't they leaving? Why aren't they why are they shielding the resistance movement yada yada yada? And then kept bombing them. I mean that's what I mean They're doing the same thing Hitler hitler had pushed them all into an area a literal open-air prison And then said oh, why aren't they going south? Why aren't they they should just go south? Why won't they just leave their land? They just need to get out of gaza? And then they're indiscriminately bombing. I mean you could argue. Yeah, they're not effectively Genociding them enough, but they are doing their goal, which is to push them out Correct, which and and and if they don't let them return then that would be ethnic cleansing, right? Just based on definitions I I mean if we want to talk about hitler hitler had a clear intention of destroying the jewish population the jewish population reduced by 30 to 50 in like a matter of eight years. So I think That's very different than the palestinian population tripling Israel again has the means to reduce the palestinian population Had they intended to so to see a tripling of of a palestinian population Clearly clearly. That's not what genocide looks like We just admitted that they can't do it. The age of genociding is the age of more definition of genocide is over in the information age So we think ethnic cleansing constitutes genocide, but if you want to disagree, whatever, I'll use your terminology I think the reason there's a different term between like the reason we have genocide is one term and ethnic cleansing Another term is because they're distinct and it doesn't mean that one is moral and the other is not but it's it's there's They're not the same thing. So just so we don't get stuck on these semantic arguments It's better to be accurate in the terminology we use and I really You know, and I don't think I've shown any sign of of Again, we all we all have our bias, but I make a real effort to try to be as fair as possible So I have no intention to defend Israel. Israel is, you know Committed many crimes and I'll speak on those crimes and I think it's essential if we want to move forward We need to be honest about the crimes both sides commit So if Israel was committed genocide, I'd stand here and say Israel's committing genocide But I I'd like to be honest. I'd like to be fair. So I'm going to go and say that Israel has engaged in ethnic cleansing I think currently Israel is committing war crimes And I think if Israel doesn't let the Palestinian popular The the Gaza population return to to north Gaza than that would be another instance of ethnic cleansing And I think that's that's speaking truly honest on the situation You're sharing something Just hold on a second. Jay, if you're sharing something on your screen right now I know it's in an effort to try to obfuscate what solo might have been saying right there But do you want to share your screen so we can actually see what you're putting up because it's so small on our live stream? Nobody can see what it is that you've got highlighted there I'm more than fine if you want to do a screen share, but you know, nobody can see what you got going on there JF are you there? While we're waiting for JF. I'd just like to jump in and say that Disproportionality might be a nice classroom type of moral concept But wars are one by applying disproportionate force to your foe And if you're invading an area no matter it that's that's Occupied militarily a civilian area. There is no way To fight your military opponents without affecting the civilians and we can talk about the niceties of war But that's the reality you win wars by applying disproportionate force And yes, there are going to be civilian casualties to Say that it's a crime has to you have to show intent or criminal negligence and so intent is Very important in this conversation All right, um I've got to ask you guys so if Hamas just wins right and then they say oh if you're Jewish you can stay there or you have to leave if you're like a Zionist supporter and you ever want to have a Jewish homeland again Like so you're saying just might makes right. That's what you guys all agree on essentially But I would say not not not on a moral level. I think in practicality generally those who have might get to get to determine You know the the nature of reality You know generally speaking I like to take a step back and not You know my morality not based is not based on who has more power Um, but I also very much acknowledge those who have most power are going to act in that way All right, let's try to move on there fellas Right like and who's saying like you know to speak to that point if if Hamas wins If if Hamas wins the jews will be genocide. It doesn't make it justify. That's just the reality of the situation You know, why why do you think that if their charter says no though? Like why do you not believe Hamas if i'm supposed to believe israel? Why we not believe Hamas like Hamas changed Well, I'll I'll tell you why you know Hamas very much has had um Has tried to modernize themselves to get acceptance from the international community So removing genocide from their charter has been awfully convenient But if we look at the nature of the october 7th attacks um A third of those killed were uh military two-thirds were Were civilians and then you had a Hamas leader come out and said we'll continue similar attacks Uh till till the end of israel both both Hamas Uh and the palestinian population Are loud and clear when they say they want to rid the land of jews Again, it's not it's not everyone but those calling for peace you don't hear Those calling for the destruction of israel are loud and you don't hear any condemnation of them in in palestinian society So this is really about taking palestinians at their word which I think is is important to do But I also want to leave people with hope and not think that this is the destiny of palestinian sentiment Because given in different environmental conditions palestinian sentiment will change so we need to work to change the environmental conditions To be more hospitable to to create a you know a population that's oriented to peace But right now Right now, you know, there's no reason to think that it won't end in genocide Okay All right, anybody have uh jf or justice you have any thoughts on that before I move on I know I you know I don't want to cut you guys out just because so adar as a problem with describing current events as genocide But he can he allows himself to talk of future genocide in an even looser way that is quite fascinating to me Right and he thought so justice Wait, so jeff you're saying In order for me to be suspicious of a population committing genocide in the future I need to incorrectly define genocide in the present. I don't follow your logic No, I'm saying that if you want to allow yourself speculations about the future Potential for genocide you should definitely be alarmed at ongoing genocides All right Again, so so what you're saying is the only way I can be alarmed for future genocide is if I incorrectly describe genocide today I don't follow that logic last Then the un is also incorrect about its definition I guess the whole historic history community and the people who do international law they're all incorrect All right, we're moving on fellas. We got our next question coming in Lots of great unfolding there. Thank you so much for that question. We had a lot of fun with that Isak beer says great convo who's saying jgf justice adair on a hard topic No kidding there issa and I absolutely want to extend a thank you to everybody in the live chat When I put in the live chat that I did not want to hear anymore of a specific thing that was going on in live chat And you all respected that I haven't seen any more of it. So, you know Let's carry on So NZ says I propose a scientific experiment for jews and muslims to live peacefully together Put them together in a small area in each country With different isolated parameters Spain builds youth centers france enforces French Finland a rural life, etc As the only Europe in this debate I reject the offer for Europe, but if you want to try this in india go ahead I think we should ground our ideas in reality. Israelis aren't going anywhere palestinians aren't going anywhere Um, let's accept this as as fact and let's move forward from there All right. Well, we can move forward from there. Well, thank you so much for your super chat I'm sorry. We didn't have more to unfold on that I will let everybody know As per usual, we will be doing an after-show Over on me and ozion's channel, which is matters now We had a really cool interview with james there if anybody Cares to go and look at that. We had good discussion about where we think the future of debate is going And you know, we have a lot of cool discussions over there and a lot of cool guests on matters now I also put the stream yard link for all of our guests here If they want to join but of course, you know, these discussions can be absolutely draining And we want to make sure that we are giving our speakers a chance and a space to like I say Get their drinks and also get out of here at a decent time, right? Like nobody wants to be hanging out forever But if you don't want to hang out afterwards love it bite me xd says as a christian in american In america, I'm sick and tired of my tax dollars going to a foreign war Like ukraine and israel when is israel going to stop to Stop running to us to back them. I'm so sick and tired of them and zealinsky. So that's from bite me xd thoughts on that panel Absolutely, you're right And it's not going to stop as long as we allow Foreign and teras to be controlling of american politics really and as long as the israeli financial networks and Israeli supporting financial networks of the world and the jewish diaspora in particular Participates to the political pressure. They do america will continue being a slave to israeli and teras for many decades. So Does anyone yeah, it is uh, I had a question on that idea Do you find it weird that you can't have like chinese or russian dual citizenship with america? Or like arab dual citizenship, but like israel is the only one from what I understand that you can Or is maybe there's some other states There are a few others. Um Well, I think russia and china are a good example because those aren't in the us sphere of influence. So they're seen as You know, essentially enemies. Um, I I think if we were to break down why america views israel is So favorable or at least in policy and funding some of it comes down to the pro-israel lobby And that's generally what we hear about But I think there's actually more reason to it than that. Uh, one of them as we mentioned earlier military industrial complex Uh, you know 70 percent of of the funding israel gets needs to be re-spent in american companies essentially having to be a a subsidy for war companies Um, and then and then this is a reason that is is very much understated it's it comes from, um united states geopolitical like, um consideration The united states wants to increase their sphere of influence right So any country that is currently within their sphere of influence that is Battling those who are outside of their sphere of influence. They're going to prop up heavily, right? There's not a strong pro-ukrain lobby, uh in the united states So why is the united states giving billions of dollars to ukraine, right? So clearly just blaming the pro-israel lobby. It's not it's it might play into it But it's not enough of of the reason why that support is there The the pro-israel lobby could disappear tomorrow and us foreign policy would still give israel four billion dollars and still be very supportive of Of of israel what might change is the amount of politicians that's that uh speak favorably of uh of israel, right? So you might have a situation where politicians are trying to listen to their voter base But they also want to listen to their donors and there might be a little bit of contention there So that might change but us foreign policy is not going to change if the pro-israel lobby disappears All right, let's move on to our next question. Sorry about that everybody. I accidentally left the uh subscribe label over my face For so long that you thought You know something must have happened to me and that's okay. I'm okay Uh, let's carry on wrong webster. Most Arab nations are also smetic Semite refers to any people that speak a Semitic language It's a declaration. Uh, what do we have to say about that our panel? Uh, I could I could speak to that I've been speaking so much so somebody else wants to but this this is really about the term anti-Semitic Yeah, I think jf you had some thoughts there I mean, it's just correct. Uh, but it really doesn't matter. We know what people mean to say when they say anti-Semitic They mean anti-Jew and everyone understands. So it really doesn't matter this semi thing Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's it's today becomes synonymous with anti-Jewish. So There's no reason to pretend like it means something else and and also, uh Semitic isn't even a classification of language anymore. It's no longer used. So that's it's not even true that that's the case All right. Well, let's carry on. Uh, we got lots of more super chats coming in. Well, actually not too many more We're winding down. Uh, if you have any more questions in the live chat, I see you're very lively They're in the live chat quote-unquote Put them into a super chat and we will try to keep the conversation going these guys to go a little Over time during their open discussion. But like I said, I think this was a little long overdue for modern day debate to be Having this discussion. So it's fine that we went a little over time. I think Yeah, nobody's giving me any like dark eyes or anything like that. So I think we'll carry on and Nobody's too upset arcade outposts says to sula You don't need ancient texts quoted out of context Liberal jays in the west and make whole careers demonizing whites and whiteness While saying they aren't white and their cronies and in media Amplify it thoughts on that subjectly So every was that yeah, he here's a question back Essentially what you're describing you're attributing to Liberal Jews, but if you were to remove Jews from the equation you would have Liberals doing the same thing so Essentially what we're happening we attribute certain qualities to a group So Jews are disproportionately represented in in media in hollywood and finance a lot of positions of power so anybody who has concern with the political and ideological views of These institutions are naturally going to have a tendency to blame jews for it because they're disproportionately represented But they're not even the majority in most of these institutions Um, like the majority of finance are not jewish. They're just Overrepresented by a few hundreds sometimes a few thousand percent Um, and again, you know, I I could understand that grievance, but you remove the jews from power Fine, so you just have christian liberals who have the same views. You don't really solve the problem So I think instead of blaming it on an ethnic group, which only demonizes an entire group Which which also keep in mind that just makes the group solidify more So the the best way to Make american jews be more american is to stop singling that out and demonizing them right anti-semitism leads to jewish pride And you could see other instances for this even the palestinian nationalism in many regards as a result of zionism and the reason why we still have You know pride parades every year is because gays traditionally didn't have the same rights as straight people So when you when you group hate results in that group being more prideful So there's no there's no stronger fuel to jewish pride than anti-semites So instead of focusing on the group focus focus on the individuals you don't like and their beliefs and call them out And that's a better way to deal with them I disagree adar is making a strong claim here that you get the same state of anti-whitism In western civilization without the jews I'm not sure i'm not sure that if you remove from the equation the singman friard The various arvard Professors that have been going strong after whiteness and wanting a strong push strongly pushing the woke Talking points against whiteness. I'm not sure you get the same direction for civilization I'm not sure even that the academia as a whole would be anti-white or that the liberals would be anti-white I think it's a very strong claim with very little evidence here um Well, when you look at the rest of the institution though the non-jewish parts of the institution It's not like they're fund them Fundamentally different ideologically than the jews. So essentially what you're saying is the only reason they believe that is because the jews Convince them, but you can you could see a lot of reason for anti-white sentiment try to keep my intersection Intersectionality is a very good political tool All it does is combine a lot of minority groups into one voter base It gets them to have a common enemy the white man and rally around this common grievance Which is which all all that really does is allow the democratic party to rally voters and not really do anything to change the situation It gives this like vague concept of anti whiteness fight anti whiteness when we won't even change any policy That's going to make a difference You could see why it's convenient for for any white liberal to to push that on on a political basis I I don't think it has nearly as much to do with jews as you think before we move on Did you have any thoughts on this? sentiment who's saying or justice Uh, I mean, I don't uh, how do I explain it? Um All groups have like historically use their power to like abuse others. So I don't necessarily um And then um, they usually have like reformist movements So um and to be honest like a lot of what liberalism stands for has come and like secular humanism and Atheism and like certain things that I don't personally agree with like they've all stemmed from like christian uh, shanity so and Judaism to be honest, so You know, I don't know. I think they're kind of both that fall for their current state of the world. So Who's saying I heard he is there's a lot of islamic islamophobia right now But most muslim nations have barely any power and they're doing the bidding of the west And then they just keep getting wrecked anyways And then, you know, your country gets wrecked then you go to europe and then you're getting blamed Oh for all this problem like in france So french people f over north africa literally do massacres in algeria never take any um Credit for doing that and then uh, you know somehow it's our fault that we have to immigrate there and then you know We're not conforming to french things like okay. Well, I'll go back to algeria if you just stop effing with algeria. So That's how I feel about that kind of stuff All right, let's carry on everybody. Uh, thank you so much for all your thoughts jimson You know your amicability on this panel. This has been like I said, it's not an easy topic Uh, we thought to have a debate on uh, but you guys have made it really easy and we really appreciate you So, uh, let's carry on Uh, arcade outpost a second question here. Thank you, buddy. Uh to sula Jays are over-represent. So it's jews are over over represents that it over represented by their own admission in every academic and political Oregon the west It's not an accident that we are told from the top down to accept refugees from wars for israel thoughts on that panel It's too sula, but there's a lot there Yeah, I mean the the vast majority of refugees in the united states have no connection to israel or palestine So that I mean that's that's just not true and again these beliefs that you don't like They're not jewish beliefs. They're liberal beliefs So it's true that the jews that have disproportionate power are generally liberal But you're making it an issue with the jews rather than with liberalism call out the ideology not the entire group of people Because most jews don't have power Or don't have more power than that the average american and you have many jews who also You know don't have that same ideology So what do you actually gain from making it about the jews rather than talking about the people in power and the beliefs that they hold Besides besides really increasing jewish pride and strengthening zions and that's really the result of of this framing It's it's it's a counterproductive framing Not all framing by group is Counterproductive some may simply give further insight and may allow to be predictive of future things that you wouldn't have understood Otherwise if you hadn't seen the world through the lens of race, I think it's very important There are some basic facts for example And i'm getting out of the subject of jews here just to give an example But you can have certain Rates of criminality in certain races and from these rights you can predict certain things you can predict I have that much chance of being assaulted here. I have that much chance of being assaulted there The same can be true of an intellectual understanding of is there something special about the jews? That led to their particular contribution to western civilization in a way that we could protect ourselves from it in the future Yeah, I mean, I think there's certainly jewish individuals that you know jewish individuals have certainly disproportionately contributed to parts of Of culture and a lot of it is things like science and medicine and you know also call it wokeness But even your example of of populations that commit more crimes. I mean, it sounds like you're referring to You know black americans, but even amongst black americans, there's there's a huge disparity depending on where they originate from right so like Caribbean americans and african americans and african immigrants from actual africa all have different crime rates So it's better to be very specific about who you're talking about and talk more about the culture You don't like rather than the race because again when you talk about the race, it's it's demonizing to all people when you talk about the culture Um and the individuals you're really only demonizing those who are acting in a certain way But sometimes it'll be stuck without the facts at the individual level and the race category can be useful in these instances And and you know what jf? I would even go to agree There are some instances where it makes easier It's easier to describe things if you look at it in terms of racial and ethnic terms But the downside I think isn't worth the utility you gain from it because again the downside causes the demonization of the entire group And generally that group to just have more pride and more nationalism And there's other ways to describe it that don't cause that that same effect. So I think those are the descriptors. We should look for So dar if you say like say, uh, oh, I think what if jeff says like, oh, I think jewish culture is an issue Then it's okay to you. I guess or is that is that what you're saying? So I would ask, you know, there's certain aspects of jewish culture that could be annoying like jews like to debate, you know Uh, we're we're taught that debate is healthy from from a young age. Um, if that annoys you, okay fine But generally the the parts of jewish culture that they're describing is just liberal ideology It's it's not really anything inherent to judeism. It's inherent inherent to liberal ideology or even I wouldn't even call it liberal ideology because this the the things that jews today are are Much of what jews are hated for is this idea of Of perpetuating like a woke ideology, which is not liberal. It's regressive, you know, let's be honest about that But I mean the the majority of woke people and woke activists are not jewish You know, they're it's it's primarily white liberals and then you have black liberals are the second largest group and jews probably come third or fourth So I don't think it's uh, it's right to look at it as jewish culture. It's um It's it's it's woke culture and and you know, I consider myself to be a liberal and quite anti-woke because it's regressive and it's harmful It's actually one of the it's one of the dumbest ideologies today And I'm surprised how popular it became given how irrational Uh, and and counterproductive it is to to any goal of building a better society I'd like to just draw attention to the fact that our honored opposition Uh Goes to the argument of The west controlling all muslim nations the jews controlling all academia as some kind of an argument I think this is just intellectually dishonest and rather lazy, but I think we all I think all four of us can agree uh that woke ideology is regressive and harmful Sure, but how how is that regressive to say that like people have political power and there's a western hegemony I mean Like when we go back to even the israel and britain like britain literally essentially was kingmaker in the israel palestine discussion So despite them promising arab sovereignty They essentially gave it to israel and zionist because they didn't want to have jewish people in their country That's that's literally what it stemmed from and then church hill for example Said oh like a bunch of people were essentially anti-semitic and they're like, I don't want to have the jews in my land So we should support zionism I seriously Because some kids fiercely that they literally are admitting that western leaders were admitting that I would again, uh, heavily suggest that the audience inform themselves on the material, uh, Situate circumstances the 1947 war and not use just simple youtube talking points provided by hussein here um for that You again zionism happened before the 1940s Hussein I have a question to you about you know how we talk about groups. Would you prefer that? Let's do it Yeah, would you prefer that europeans say we have a problem with islam or would you prefer we have a problem with? um People who believe that apostasy should be punishable by death I don't have a problem with either But but don't you see as one targeting, uh, what's actually wrong and the other just talking about an entire religion? No, because I can ask for clarification, but I understand that um And it really depends on the person too because one could be targeting the entire religion And one could be just using that as a tool to say that they have a problem with people who are um Wanting to put to death people who do apostasy. So if that makes sense, right? So it could be like a lazy tool by someone who is like maybe less educated So when they're saying like, oh, I have a problem with With muslims, right? Uh, it could be coming from like a lazy talking point But what in reality they mean is like that we don't conform to quote unquote liberalism now I would argue like they don't even conform to liberalism and that's why liberalism is stupid. Um, but Well, so so I would agree with you I think it's often an easy descriptor But it generally causes harm right because that just breeds more islamophobia and creates it creates more tensions between people Um, so it's better to talk about the the ideology and people who believe that ideology rather than make it about the religion Then not every one of that religion Uh, believes so I think even let's say 50 of uh, of muslims Yeah, but what those people are trying to do for example, like david wood or apostate prophet who gets hosted here regularly They go online and then they say oh islam says this But then they remove all context and then they narrative build to make it as if it's like some demonic religion Ignoring what christianity says about apostasy Ignoring about what liberals say about betrayal of their nation So you can be an atheist for example or a Someone who believes in subjective morality or whatever or agnostic and you'll still put to death someone you think is a Betrayer or harmful to your nation and there's plenty of people who have done that So the fact of the matter is that in a way to me, they're all hypocrites So they all want to put to death their enemy or whatever, you know, so Right I would agree those people and the way they they talk about it are the problem for sure They they make it about an entire group Yeah, but I don't have a problem with like in a way they're doing it I guess because it's just like a lazy way of doing it, but um, I can so I don't understand what you're saying though. So yeah All right, I think I think in general, you know the There's there's so much hate today and and you know social media just makes it so much worse It's you know, you look at twitter It's a shit show and I think if we could all be a little bit more attentive on how we describe things We can make a lot of progress in our ability to communicate with the other side effectively So that that's why I I push for this You're putting a little slightly finer point put it put it putting on a slightly finer point to our dars Uh, you know question to you who's saying what I would just say also like Islam is an ideology even though it is a religion It's also an ideology. So it's even like saying I'm against Arabs as opposed to saying I'm against uh Islam Like that's that's really the finer point. Um So I think you would have to agree that it would be better to say, you know I'm against Islam as an ideology that people can either accept or reject as opposed to saying I'm against all Arabs regardless of whether or not they're you know Part of that particular ideology Regardless of how right or wrong you are in the framing of the religion closing thoughts who say Sure, I guess I don't have a I don't have a problem with what you're saying I guess to me like the weird thing is like everything's an ideology or everything's a religion like when you And again, there's like polls on this which I did with my prior debate on secular humanism I mean people do essentially and the Quran talks about this they They take whatever their belief is be it atheism or whatever and they expound it to a higher value that they want making it their religion So, you know, am I gonna you and I would agree with you and I would You and I would agree on that. Um, but that's why I'm talking about it's it's not helpful to say the jews Just as it's not helpful to see the Arabs Even if you believe that Islam is an ideology like Judaism or liberalism There All right, let's carry on fellas. We had a couple more super chats before we do close out the show Uh, so I do want to once again say thank you to everybody who has been here Samir asks What if they both pronounced their country name and lived together under a new named holly land? This experiment of living together worked in south africa Holy land, that's what he probably met Maybe a joke here But I like the joke very very well done south africa didn't go well Yes, south africa is not a not a great success story. Um, you know Sorry continue on i'm just i'm just having a laugh with your fellows I mean jeff I have a question on that. Do you think that south africa like they should have just left Back to like dutch or wherever they're from historically Uh, yes, I've been totally stunned by the fact that there are white people in south africa and they they feel like they They're ready to die there rather than escape. I I would have escaped But i'm a different person. I understand that there's a part of humanity They just stay in place and that's what causes a lot of drama and that's their right to me I'm not good and you know, you have israel very often saying well, we warn the the civilians They should have escaped north of gaza. We told them we would bomb Uh, i'm i'm totally hesitant at joining this side of the argument and I tend to think that yeah You have the right to stay where you are you do not have a duty to retreat to state violence And so that's why i'm very admirative of the people who stay there, but personally i'm a fleer I'm a I keep fleeing. I I flee hundreds of years before the genocide actually begins Is that a canadian trader or a french trait, you know, that's the mix of I'm always going north and i'm always going toward colder countries with the hope of Not being in the middle of something like the middle east isn't Yeah, okay No, so, you know on that question though I I think our ability to to find a solution We need to understand sentiment on the land and the majority of palestinians are Are stuck on the name palestine and the majority of israelis are stuck on the name israel And it's going to be very hard to change them. So don't resist in areas which aren't necessary to Uh resist I think you could call, you know, if it's two states you have israel and palestine or if it's a federation It could be the federation of israel and palestine or we call it We just call it palestine but s s te ineth and to kind of talk about its jewish demographic All right, let's carry on fellas Uh Robin webster second last question If you have any other super chats in that live chat get them in now because we're winding The heck down. That's me. Uh making a pg-14 Robin webster, we support ukraine because of a budapest referendum Thank you, robin webster for your super chat. What do you think of that? Um, I think about a whole lot of thoughts now Sorry, yeah, I think we support Yeah, I think the west supports, uh ukraine as a byproduct of the um Support that the west gave to anti-soviet countries during the soya union and as a legacy artifact the fact that we were the guarantors of ukrainian um nuclear You know giving up the nuclear weapons And so this is a question for the united american people is do we if if we don't want to be the guarantors of people giving up the nuclear weapons We shouldn't commit to that that kind of stuff. Um, so that's that's the reasons are pretty straightforward Are you Jf any thoughts no no no all right Um, s'la I you know, I know that uh, I've given you quite a bit of speaking time I'm not gonna just you know pretend a you know that uh, uh, I've tried to make sure that you got your thoughts out there But did you have any thoughts on this? I I I missed otherwise known as a dog Yeah, I'm sorry s'la otherwise known as a dog No, I I was gonna say I really appreciate, uh, yeah at our, uh Thoughts on this because uh, you know, you definitely have some What was the question again? I'm sorry. Uh, so they were trying to make a parallel But I think what we should do is move on because we do have another question here Maybe this will really it was about ukraine. Somebody trying to get me put in jail You you come down to the rover justice You behave So last question coming in, uh, this is from king solo wings So let's see. I think king you're going to stir the pot of discussion here When will palestine give the land back to the ottoman empire? Has palestine won any wars ever the two hamas supporters are anti american marxists You don't have to win a war to be the legitimate occupier of a place when we visited palestine Back in the 19th century it was filled with arabs and it doesn't matter exactly what happened with the ottoman empire They could have just deserted this place and eventually it got reoccupied or there may have been a military conflict That doesn't matter at all to the question of what's happening today and Of properly labeling what's happening today in israel All right thoughts on the panel Uh, I agree. It's kind of weird That he uh, jeff's being labeled a marxist. I don't think I would have heard that Laura hamas jeff is definitely Definitely jeff is definitely not a marxist, but he is Strange uh saying that oh there were arabs in palestine during ottoman rule. Um, yeah, he rejects the idea that Is the ethnic inhabitants of palestine who were also jews have a right to to the land so Is the point that i'm making is a historical one just the same point that jeff just made All right, any thoughts over there silla My dear If the ottoman empire was still around maybe there'd be a conversation to be had but they're gone so irrelevant Bring back the calcite All right, excellent Well, what we're going to do everybody is we will do a closing statement one minute per each person on the panel here We appreciate all of our speakers jeff hussein justice and adir will be linked in the description So if you want to hear more from each of our speakers whether you're listening on youtube or on our podcast forums We will have all of our speakers linked whether the link now or in our post Production we will get that taken care of so i have in order here silla justice jeff and hussein We're going to take it through that order here So silla one minute on the clock your closing statements on our discussion tonight and where you think the uh the future of this is headed Yeah, sure. So first of all silla as i mentioned isn't my name It's it's a youtube channel i have which actually silla means to reconcile an arabic So that's really what what i think we should be talking about like how do we reconcile between both people and that really comes down to understanding The concerns fears hopes and aspirations of both people and and what's what's fundamental to the energy behind zion zionism More than anything is a need for security and what's fundamental to its palestin the movement for palestinian rights is a sense of justice So let's look for a solution that provides security for jews and justice for palestinians Let's accept israel's right to exist. But let's also transform israel to make it easier for palestinians to accept israel All right, uh, we have one more question come in here. So thank you for your closing statement Maybe this will stir a little bit more thought could the recent bricks retaliation against the us dollar mean the beginning of the world power Change and could it affect israel palestinian conflict? That would be great, but it's a it's a pipe dream I think the us still has domination of the world for maybe 20 to 40 years I think they will be superior in robotics technology Mastering of technology in relation to ai so they're still going to have a technological advance for many decades I hate to say that I grew with jf. I hate to say that I grew with jf um Again looking back to the historical precedent The six-day war happened during a genuine Multipolar world where the soviet union along with its satellite states and allies were supporting one side And the united states along with its Satellites and allies were supporting the other and it didn't lead to some peace in the middle east, you know kumbaya situation so this I this this uh these hopes that are that are Hung on the idea of multiplayer polarity are just people who don't understand history Yeah, I'll agree with uh jeff, uh kiddafi, uh tried to create a unified arab nations and uh Pan africanism with like investing heavily in africa and north africa as well as the middle east And wanting to make kind of like a usa of the arab nations literally got assassinated when you wanted to be backed by gold standard As well being backed out his economy backed by real money um, so yeah, every time anyone tries to Challenge the western hegemoni. They uh get kud toppled So yeah, I don't uh see it changing for a while. So all right. Well, uh, let's give the floor to justice one minute for your closing there, buddy All right, again, thank you to marna debates for hosting this this debate I think the thing that I'd like to say In my closing would be that it is important that we realize on both sides the Historic claim that both israelis and arabes have to this part of the world unless we all recognize that the there will be no peace and going back and saying things like Israelis are colonists or colonial powers or outposts of colonial powers or saying things like arab Uh, pet the palestinian nation people never existed Arabs, you know, palestinians don't palestinians don't exist. Arabs aren't palestinians Whatever is just not helpful We need to look for solutions and I suggest that one of the solutions that we can find in this or at least move towards is Uh, by promoting that the western countries like the united states not Unilaterally arm israel, which could help Um, give motivation for israel to seek more peaceful solutions to state solution Most likely is what we should be shooting for. Um, no pun intended Uh, after the october 7th attacks, this is going to be a lot harder to do But I think we would all agree that is the the situation that we should be moving forward But what we can do in the west again is by supporting policies and politicians who Understand that this is a nuanced and hard situation and arming one side. Um, just extends the problem All right, I'll be very short for my conclusion Uh, I appreciate the subtlety of the thoughts we heard tonight and the good faith Of the people on the other side, uh, but it's so far from reality because it's a theoretical Peace situation that we're talking about which is impossible to implement in reality which doesn't even come to address the The factions of extremists that we have on the israeli side and on the arab side And the fact is the middle east is a big pile of shit and it's going to remain as such It's going to be conflict forever. It's an existential conflict The muslims are the ones who recognize it the most and who recognize it as a demographic race Even within a temporary or local piece of some kind It's still going to be a demographic race It's a race for breeding and it's called the theory of evolution It applies to us just like it applies to every human every animal on this earth All right, let me turn up my preamp there. Thank you everybody and uh, From who's saying to everybody? I don't know Jeff saw the chat I just said I'll I'll breed him The muslims must have went Inshallah, um, all right. Who's saying you got one minute? Thanks for that buddy that was so, um I'll keep it brief too. Uh, other than outbreeding, uh, you know, my fellow, uh, atheists and christians Um, pretty much I'd like to say that if there was justice there really should be only one state which would be palestine um Controlled by the majority. Um, because they have self-determination that could include Jewish people as well as christians as it did prior Under islamic or sharia law and then making a contract and all that don't have a problem with all that That would be what would be just to me. However Like they said as a pragmatic point of view We kind of just have to accept israel's here and a two-state solution would be great Um, I'm not denying that historically jewish people didn't live there Um, just that russian and people aren't native to the region. So Russian and uh, coalition all that so anyways, uh, thanks for the conversation everyone. It was actually pretty good All right, excellent. We're gonna close it out there everybody. So make sure you hit the like and subscribe Uh, I also for all of our speakers. I put in our chat the link to the aftershows So if you're going to be hanging out at matters now For the aftershow definitely check that out. We're going to be discussing what we heard tonight and what other speakers and Maybe what you might think on the panel because it is going to be an open panel discussion so everybody hang out in the zoom call and uh, you know, we'll definitely chat about that and Like I said once again, keep a lookout for the debates We have coming up a modern day debate because we have all kinds of uh, juicy discussions Uh and and events coming up. So, uh, we will keep you notified of that in the meantime Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable or the unreasonable from the reasonable. However, james puts it It doesn't matter. It's all the same to me Take care everybody. Good night