 we have people who love men more than they love God. Now, they'll claim, they claim to love God, but look at how they respond when their idols or those that they admire are being dealt with or being exposed or being challenged, things of that nature. The problem comes is when we feel that those that we have placed in positions of prominence and put on pedestals that they cannot be corrected. They can do the correcting, but they themselves cannot be corrected. And that's a problem because none of us are exempt from correction when we need to be corrected. None of us are exempt from being rebuked when we need to be rebuked. None of us are exempt from being exposed when we need to be exposed. None of us are. So why is it that we have certain people within the body of Christ who are untouchable, who can't be told anything? I mean, the moment you say anything about MacArthur, then the mob comes for you, or the sycophants come for you. And if you don't have thick skin, if you're not, if you're not equipped to deal with this stuff, you're going to tap out, you're going to get, you're going to get discouraged, you're going to start questioning your calling and all this kind of stuff. This is not for the week. This is not for the week at all. I don't say this with, with any sense of, of happiness or glee or joy. It's not that at all. But I believe when things are done publicly, when I, I believe when people are affected publicly, I believe when people are harmed or abused or mistreated in the house of God by people or under ministries authority that they themselves have been derelict or have been, have not been faithful in their duties and responsibilities to protect the sheep, not just protect the sheep from wolves outside the church, but protect the sheep from wolves from within the church. It's so easy for us to go at the low hanging fruit. It's so easy for us in reform circles to go after the T.D. Jakes and the Creflo's and the Joyce Myers and the Joel Osteens and the, you name them, the Alex Bagonies, the Marcus Rogers. It's easy to go after them because it's, it's blatant that these people are frauds. It's blatant that these people are false teachers. It's blatant that these people profess to no God, but by their deeds, they deny them. It's easy to go after the low hanging fruit, but what about those that's, that's hard to reach, but you see them, you see them mistreating God's people, manipulating God's people, mind screwing God's people. What about them? What about them that go to the G3 conferences? What about them that go to the Shepher's conferences? What about those? What about them? What about them who write commentaries and write books supposedly, allegedly? What about those who are exegelical beasts in evangelicalism? They know how to parse verbs. They know how to break down the text. They know how to pull that which is within the text out and make it come alive in its application. But when it comes to orthopraxy, when it comes to the second greatest commandment, when it comes to loving our neighbor, as I would say, when it comes to protecting orphans and widows, when it comes to those who have been domestically abused, when it comes to those who have been mistreated, and then they run to the church for refuge and they run to the church for safety and solace and comfort and help and protection they're put out. They're told to go back to their abuser. They're told to submit to their abuser. They're even told if they don't, we're gonna put you out of the church and not only put you out of the church, but we're gonna protect those that have abused you from any possible consequence. What about those ministries? What about those ministries and those who support these ministries when you bring the receipts, when you bring evidence to bear irrefutable evidence that only a fool would attempt to try to discredit? And then now you're seen as the one that's trying to divide the church because they love these people so much that even when you present information and we're not talking about information that has been corrected, we're talking about information that has yet to be corrected, have yet to be repented of, have yet to be recanted. And you say, wait a minute, I know if this person were to say what John MacArthur said, we'd be hanging them high on the gallows. I know if T.D. Jakes would have said this or if Joyce would have said this or if Joel would have said this or if Alex Pagani would have said this or Isaiah Saldivar would have said this, you name them. Whoever the infamous false teachers are, you name them. If they were to say some of the things that John MacArthur and others have said without question or hesitation, they would get dealt with in the spirit. But it's a totally different thing when we have people in our own camp, quote unquote, in our own circles, quote unquote, do those things that we know that do not align with book chapter and verse, and we give them a pass. We let them slide. We make excuses instead of them, instead of them, instead of us demanding that they make confessions, then there's no other way to say that then we are guilty of idolatry. We are guilty of favoritism. We're doing the very thing that James chapter two admonishes and exhausts us not to do. And we should be ashamed of that. What does it take for us as a body to hold people accountable when we see sin in our face? I'll tell you what it takes. It takes boldness. It takes us standing on the word of God, no matter what. It takes us not worrying about who is going to question our motives. It's going to take us not worrying about what people think about us and be more concerned about what God says and what God thinks about us. Because at the end of the day, when all is said and done, isn't well done without good and faithful servant, without good and faithful slave? Isn't that what we claim that we want to hear? Another one. Did you guys not believe that the church at least owed an apology, at least owed Eileen Grant apology? Do you think that it was okay seemingly for the church to continue protecting David Gray and potentially fundraising for him? Why was he not up for church discipline? Why are we not getting any responses from the church? Why has there been no responses from John MacArthur? Why is it just seemingly fanboys on the internet creating straw man arguments that have nothing to do with what's being discussed? Julie Royce was against COVID-19 opening of churches. Julie Royce is a feminist. Why are you guys not speaking to the actual facts of this case and only blindly defending Pope John MacArthur? Someone please explain these things. I haven't seen one video made outside of this was 20 years ago, hindsight's 2020, but you haven't answered the questions. Do you believe women and abusive relationships are to stay in those relationships and suffer onto the glory of Jesus? Do you really believe that? Someone respond to that. I can't get any responses to that. All I see is attacks against Julie Royce. It makes no sense to me. So listen to me. You don't need to like Julie Royce. You don't need to agree with all her views about everything. She's an investigative journalist. Her job by definition is to make powerful people be exposed and held accountable for their misdeeds that happen in private. But here is the deal people. And this is why I'm defending her. And this is what some of you don't understand is if men in the church did their job, Julie Royce wouldn't have a job. If men stood up and actually kept their own pastors and their own elders accountable, there wouldn't be a need for someone like Julie Royce. There wouldn't be a need for an investigative journalist in the church exposing all of the shenanigans of the Ravi Zacharias and the James McDonald's. There wouldn't be a need for it. Whenever I go live or post any content, you'll be the one of the very first to view it. Also, if you have been blessed by this ministry and if you would like to support this ministry financially, first and foremost, thank you very much in advance for those of you who have and those of you are considering to do so. You can do so also by clicking the donation links below at the bottom of this video. We definitely appreciate your tangible gifts of love and support. It helps us to do what we're called to do, especially now that I am full-time and I see now the reason why God in His providence and God in His timing has called me to do that and has called me to be here for just a time as this. Again, thank you so, so much. Those of you who have been supporting this ministry with your prayers, with your financial gifts, with your words of encouragement, all of these things really mean so much to me and my wife and our family. We do appreciate that. Also, please, if you have not yet done so, if you have not subscribed to the Love, Life and Marriage channel, please go over there to that channel and hit the subscription button, hit that like button as well. That way, when we put out content as we did on yesterday, you'd be also the first ones to view it. We're trying to get that channel up to a thousand. Of course, the more the merrier and the more the better, but at least to a thousand so that way we can post and do live videos and now have to do summercasts with the BCV channel alongside with the Love, Life and Marriage channel. So if you could do that, please, we would definitely appreciate that. So I have a lot of information to cover. I have a lot of articles to read to you. You're going to be with me most of the time, most of the day, hopefully, if you can, if you can spare today this podcast or this live, and then I'm going to be going live again at 1 p.m. Central Standard Time. I'm going to be doing another reaction video with or regarding Jason Whitlock and Patrick Bet David. As promised on yesterday, I told you I was going to address that issue. So I'll be doing that after this stream is over this morning. But if you could please, like my sister, Venus said, hey sis, good to see you. 50 people in the chat and only five likes. Let's get these likes up, ladies and gentlemen. This information is important. This information is important. I know there's some of you probably watching this live and you don't want to support this channel. Okay. Not sure why you hear other than if you're trolling is what it is, but this information needs to get out. This information is so important because this is what some of you have been praying for. Some of us definitely have been praying for it and God has answered our prayers. What is that? Well, God has vindicated. God has vindicated sister Eileen Gray and others who had been slanderously, maliciously lied on, defamed, mischaracterized, you name it, for the past year, at least for the past year. The accusations, the smearing, all because of an idol that they have made from man and God in his grace, God in his providence and his sovereignty has once again vindicated his people. And so this broadcast, this stream, this live stream is dedicated to my sister, sister Eileen Gray, to her children, to every abuse survivor, not victim, but survivor at Grace Community Church and other churches that have fallen into this sick, wicked sin. This is something that we all should be angry about, especially when it involves those who cannot defend themselves. So many people that will never have the opportunity to share their story because of the trauma and because of the abuse that they have experienced. This, I believe, hopefully by God's grace, and I don't even know who all these people are, but hopefully by God's grace, someone will see this and be encouraged and more people will come forward and more people will speak up and more people will speak out and expose this wickedness, these deeds that have been done in the dark that God is now bringing to light. And so I praise God for that. So today is Vendication Day. Today is Vendication Day. So let's get those likes up, ladies and gentlemen. We got 54 people that are watching. Let's get the likes up. Let's hit this subscription button, hit that bell, all that good stuff. I want to post some subscriptions. I want to read some scriptures because if you don't believe that the Word of God speaks to those who he is going to vindicate and who he has promised to vindicate, then hopefully by the end of this stream you will have a greater appreciation and a greater love for the Word of God. And I know some of you do. I pray all of us do, especially when life hits us so hard and we need to go to the Word of God first and foremost for answers. So let's look at one past, one past description, one verse description right now. Isaiah 54 verse 17. The Bible says, no weapon that is formed against you will prosper and every tongue that accuses you in judgment you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and notice and their vindication is from me, declares the Lord. Isaiah chapter 35 and verse four. Isaiah 35 verse four. And dear, if the girls need to come and get the paperwork, they can. I got a sitting right here in front of the desk. They can come in and just come to the front and they can grab it. They'll let them come get it from the front door. I want to hold the homework up. Isaiah chapter 35 verse four. The text reads, say to those with anxious heart, take courage, fear not, behold, your God will come with vengeance. The recompense of God will come, but he will save you. This is a promise, ladies and gentlemen, chapter 62 of Isaiah. Chapter 62 of Isaiah verse one closed door, man, when you finish, oh, I thought that was your one of the girls. Isaiah chapter 62 verse one. For Zion's sake, I would not keep silent. And for Jerusalem's sake, I would not keep quiet until her righteousness goes forth like brightness and her salvation like a torch that is burning. Yeah. Psalm 58, Psalm chapter 58 verse 11. I hope you all are writing these verses down. You're going to need them one day, if not already. If you have been lied on, maligned, falsely accused, that you know this is Ramah for you. Psalm 58 verse 11. And men will say, surely there is a reward for the righteous. Surely there is a God who judges on earth. Chapter 135 in verse 14 of Psalms. For the people will judge his people, excuse me, for the Lord will judge his people and will have compassion on his servants. Let me read that again. For the Lord will judge his people and will have compassion on his servants. Deuteronomy 32 verse 36. For the Lord will vindicate his people and will have compassion on his service. When he sees that their strength is gone, and there is none remaining, bond or free. These are things we can all glean from. We can glean from these. And aren't you glad that when times and situations occur in our life, we can always go back to the Word of God. We can always lean upon the Word of God. Because the Word of God, the Bible says it's sure, there's a foundation. And so again, this stream is for those of you who have been lied on, those of you who have been slandered in defense of those who have been abused like Sister Eileen Gray and others who have came forward and have shared their stories. And unfortunately you have professing Christians, and I use the word professing with air quotes, who would rather defend their idols instead of defending those who have been attacked and slandered and mistreated and abused, molested. This is really where we are today, brothers and sisters. You know, we want to talk about Charismatics, we want to talk about Pentecostals, we want to talk about the Catholic Church, we want to talk about all these other groups and all these other denominations and all these other quote unquote false religions when we have the very thing that we are calling ourselves hating occurring in our own camp. And now I'm speaking to those of you who are non-charismatic and those of you who claim to be Reformed, Calvinists, MacArthur lovers, all that. Yeah, this stream is for you too, but not in the way you think it's going to be favorably. Because now that the information has come out, now that an elder who is an attorney, a lawyer has come forth, former elder of Grace Community Church, Han, that is H-O-H-N Cho, C-H-O, has come forward and have given a statement, and you can find that statement on Christianity Today and also on the Roars Report. But he gave a statement and he has come forward and has spoken out against the abuse and the patterns of abuse that have been going on at Grace Community Church, not just one time, but for years, decades that we've now discovered, decades, decades. Not from, listen, not from the Catholic Church, not from a Muslim mosque. Mm-mm. Not from cults like Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons and New Age. No, no, no, no, no. No, no. I call those low-hanging fruit. No, these types of abuses and these types of sins are coming from evangelicals, Protestants, born-again believers, the who's who of Christendom, those who you go to break your neck and run down the aisle to get a front row seat, to sit as close to your idol as you possibly can every spring. We're over three, the four, maybe even 7,000 men gather in Southern California to see a man or to see several men spending their hard-earned money, some even going into debt to see their idol because it's whatever their idol says is West S. Cathedral. It's whatever their idol says that they put on par with sacred scripture. Oh no, they'll never admit it, but let you say anything about their idol and then you'll see how much they love their idol even to the point of taking you down. This is where we are today. This is where we are today. And I'm not talking about charismatic, I'm talking about non-charismatic, I'm talking about reform folk, I'm talking about cessationists folk. Yeah, you can call them McCarthyites, come whatever you want to call them. I'm just gonna call it the Bible calls them idolaters, idolaters, man pleasers, cowards, because that's what they are. Anytime you have this much evidence that have been produced and have been pushed and exposed and you still defend McArthur, you still defend Grace Community Church, you still defend Phil Johnson, you still defend these people. And not only do you defend them, but you'll defame those who are standing for truth and defense of those who are wrong. Yeah, that's idolatry ladies and gentlemen in a nutshell because you'll do whatever it takes, whatever it takes, you'll sin for it and you'll sin if you can't keep what you're doing. You'll sin to get it and you'll sin if it keeps you from losing it. That's idolatry. So let's jump right in because they got a lot of information to cover. I want to read to you, wait a minute, what did you say, Joe? You said, same thing happened in Vodibachem Church when he left for Africa. The guy that replaced him with a 16 year old girl, so being reformed doesn't make one exempt. Yeah, I mean it just, this is the sad reality, idolatry in every sense of the word. But I want to share my screen and this is from Christianity Today. Christianity Today, this actually was released on yesterday and my phone was buzzing like a bee when it dropped. Okay, I'm going to stop. Kate Shelnut, she reported this story titled Grace Community Church rejected elder's cause to do justice in abuse case. Let me shrink it a little bit, make sure everybody can see it. Okay, while a former leader holds for change, women who sought refuge in biblical counseling at John MacArthur's church say they feared discipline for seeking safety from the abusive marriages. Last year John, excuse me, last year Han Cho concluded Grace Community Church had made a mistake. The elders had publicly disciplined a woman for refusing to take back her husband. As it turned out, the woman's fears proved true and her husband went to prison for child molestation and abuse. The church never retracted its discipline or apologized in the 20 years since. As a lawyer and one of four officers on the elder board at Grace Community Church, Cho was asked to study the case. He tried to convince the church's leaders to reconsider and at least privately make it right. He said Pastor John MacArthur told him to quote, forget it, end quote. When Cho continued to call the elders to do justice on the woman's behalf, he said he was asked to walk back his conclusions or resign. It's been 10 months since Cho left Grace Community Church and he has not been able to forget the women, to forget the woman, excuse me, Eileen Gray, whose experience was described in detail last March in Julie Roy's news outlet, The Roy's Report. Though Cho stepped down quietly, he continued to hear from other women from his former church. They had also been doubted, dismissed, and implicitly or explicitly threatened with discipline while seeking refuge from their abusive marriages. Even at his new congregation, Cho began to meet visitors with connections to Gray's case, which he saw as a sign of God's providence. No, he couldn't forget it. The more he learned, the more people he talked with, the more the injustice weighed on his conscience, and the more concerned he grew about the church's biblical counseling around abuse. As Cho wrote in a 20 page memo to top leaders at Grace Community Church last March, quote, I genuinely believe it would be wrong to do nothing. At the end of the day, I know what I know. I cannot unknow it. And I am in fact accountable before God for this knowledge. And if you have labored mightily to read this far, you are now accountable before God for it as well, end quote. Grace Community Church is led by MacArthur, one of America's longest standing and most influential pastors. The Sun Valley, California mega church is best known for MacArthur's preaching and prides itself on his fidelity to the Bible over the whims of the world. GCC's reach extends far beyond the crowds that fill this 3,500 seat auditorium for multiple services each Sunday through MacArthur's popular books and commentaries, affiliated schools, the master's seminary and the master's university. Grace to you, teaching ministry and the church's annual shepherds conference. At the conference last month, Cho taught on, quote, conscience and conviction, unquote, he spent the rest of the year living out that lesson, living out the lesson over the summer and fall. Cho held out a faint hope that this 37 member elderboard would reconsider Grace case, praying that God was soft in leader's hearts and change their minds. He wanted to see them correct the mistakes of their past and do better in the future. Instead, he discovered they appeared to be repeating them months after raising concerns about a 20 year old case. Cho discovered another grievous GCC counseling case in the fall of 2022. That's just last year, ladies and gentlemen, just in case y'all didn't remember. In the fall of 2022, a woman reported that church leaders had advised her to move back in with her husband and not get a restraining order despite his documented grooming behaviors, infidelity and angry outbursts. Though the case settled in January after the woman sought court order protection last year, two pastors had filed declarations on her husband's behalf. Quote, in God's providence, he kept placing reminders in front of me, completely unbidden. When my wife and I were asked by a friend to pray for a woman my wife happened to know, she reached out in concern. And we were horrified to discover the same awful patterns of counseling were still happening at GCC and quote, Cho told CT, which is the Christianity today. Quote, this is when I sadly came to believe beyond any personal doubt that GCC congregants who we still love could effectively be playing Russian roulette if they ever needed counseling at GCC, especially anything involving the care of women or children. I know I could not pass by silently on the other side of the road that I needed to help this woman and to call out a warning or else the blood of the people would be on my head. End quote. For this story, Christianity today spoke with eight women who recounted how they and others at Grace Community Church had been counseled to avoid reporting their husbands and fathers to authorities to accept their apologies and to continue to submit to them. The victims were regularly quoted scripture on forgiveness, trust, love and submission and were told to reconcile and return home, even in cases where they feared for their safety and their children's safety. No one from GCC responded to request by Christianity today to discuss the church's counseling philosophy or response to abuse or to questions about specific cases. Six pastors and elders were contacted for comment by phone and email repeatedly over a three-week period prior to the article's publication as well as one former pastor and elder. Cho first read about Eileen Gray's case last March after the Roars Report coverage when he said he had been asked to look over the church's handling of her case for the elder board. His review drawing from his legal background and training became part of an initial internal investigation. The church's discipline, the church's discipline happened in 2002 a few years before Cho came to faith at Grace Community Church. Gray had refused to follow leaders counsel to lift a restraining order against her abusive husband David Gray. During a monthly communion service, MacArthur characterized her husband as, characterized her decision, excuse me, characterized her decision as unrepentant sin saying the mother of three chose to quote leave and forsake and quote her husband. David Gray once a teacher on staff at the church went on to be sentenced for his crimes in 2005, aggravated child molestation, corporal injury to a child and child abuse. Witnesses and victims backed his wife's account of the abusive behavior while church leaders continued to defend him. According to court documents referenced and posted with the March 2022 Roars Report article, David Gray remains in prison. Cho said many leaders at Grace Community Church refused to read the Roars Report article. Some did and dismissed his findings anyway. Top leaders at the church became defensive, he said, and wanted to protect MacArthur. To Cho, as well as to seven Christian lawyers who reviewed the material, it was obvious that David Gray was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And Eileen Gray's refusal to lift the restraining order to protect her children was objectively reasonable and fully vindicated. Quote, now that the facts are indeed known, it is not too late to do justice even at this late stage. Almost 20 years later, he wrote to the elder board, one's own integrity and upholding justice and righteousness and being faithful even in the small things, even for something 20 years ago, all matter immensely in quote. Cho expected the church to hold itself to a higher standard than even the secular courts. In Eileen Gray's case, overseen then by then associate executive pastor, Kerry Hardy, and involving Grace Community Church's longtime pastor of counseling, Bill Shannon, he found evidence of mistreatment, bias and errors in how they handled the case. Eileen Gray was repeatedly disbelieved and accused of being bizarre. It wasn't relevant to the reason for her discipline and leaders cast doubt on her account despite David Gray's history of deceit. Quote, they cited with a child abuser who turned out to be a child molester over a mother desperately trying to protect her three innocent young children. And that was and is flatly wrong and needs to be made right in quote, Cho said to Christianity today. Quote, numerous elders have admitted in various private conversations that mistakes were made and that they would make a different decision today knowing what they know now. But those admissions mean you need to make it right with the person you wrong. That is utterly basic Christianity, end quote. While still on the elder, while still on the board last March, Cho emphasized the urgency of correcting the record. The elders had called out sin where there was none he insisted. If they had learned that they disciplined a man wrongly accused of adultery, wouldn't they want to make that right? Even if they found out 20 years later? According to Cho, who served as the board secretary and was responsible for taking notes, MacArthur replied during the March meeting that the comparison didn't apply to Eileen Gray. The pastor brought up again claims of her quote, bizarre behavior in quote, and wasn't inclined to reconsider her discipline. After that, Cho said, he was told by elder board chair, Chris Hamilton, that he would need to walk back his findings about the church's mistakes if he wanted to remain an elder. Hamilton did not respond to requests for comment. Cho and his wife resigned their membership the next day. This fall, Cho found himself once again reviewing court filings from a member at Grace Community Church who saw a restraining order against her husband in hopes of protecting herself and her young children from abuse. This time at the woman's request, certain parallels to Eileen Gray were immediately clear to him. The woman told CT, she recognized the parallels too. She said when she read about Eileen Gray last year, she thought, this sounds a lot like what I've been told. CT policies allows victims of abuse to go unnamed for the sake of privacy and safety. Her identity and the details of her account have been verified in reporting this story. Quote, whenever I made moves in the direction of the restraining order, it was, quote, be careful of the heart of retaliation. In quote, the woman said, quote, they were telling me to back off essentially. They were saying it was un-Christian of me to seek that legal protection because believers don't take other believers to court. End quote. She said she had reported through church leaders evidence of her husband's infidelity searches for incest porn and inappropriate behavior with their daughter starting when she was just a couple years old. A month after moving back in with her husband at the request of their pastors, she called 911 out of fear during an argument on the road. In court filings obtained by CT, she stated pastor and elder Rodney Anderson told her that she should submit to her husband as unto the Lord rather than provoke him. The domestic violence officers dispatched to the scene. She said told her not to return home. Two elders went on to submit sworn statements on behalf of her husband. Anderson's declaration recounts the husband saying during counseling that he and his daughter had touched tongues while they kissed to imitate a scene in a cartoon. A declaration from the other pastor and elder Brad Clayson said that the woman came to him concerned about pictures taken by her husband, but that she didn't have evidence of the abuse. According to her own filing, the photos include pictures of her toddler touching her husband's pants zipper and her face sprayed with water as well as selfies with the child while she was naked. Clayson's declaration said the photos did not contain nudity. Two other leaders at Grace said that they would testify on the wife's behalf, but the couple reached an agreement in January prior to the court date, so none of the pastors ended up needing to testify. In the settlement, the wife did not retract the abuse claims made against her husband. In the end, she said the betrayal of her church, not her former church, hurt the most. It hit sub-zero spiritually. I was doubting if God is real, I thought. If God is real, but we're supposed to submit to church leaders when this is going on, I'd rather die. The woman said to CT, even unbelievers wouldn't stand for this end quote. The woman says she saw the Lord work sovereignly to lead her through the process, eventually coming to see that the failure of the church doesn't nullify the existence of God or the justice of God. Quote, I need to fear God instead of man. Just because someone quotes a verse to you and they're in a position of authority doesn't mean they're doing it well, she said. End quote. When she challenged the pastor's advice to return to and trust her husband, she said she was reminded of passages like love believes all things and that Jesus said to forgive 70 times seven times. According to her account, the trauma and warning signs won't enough. The pastors wanted evidence of physical abuse, skin to skin adultery, or a conviction of child molestation before agreeing she had biblical grounds for divorce. She couldn't wait for that. The cases at Grace Community Church in a larger debate around what qualifies as abuse and whether Christians should prioritize reconciliation and abuse cases with the church and its seminary holding a prominent place among conservative biblical counselors and the association of certified biblical counselors. Quote, there's a fundamentally different understanding of what abuse is in quote said Jonathan Holmes, a graduate of the master's university and a pastor and counselor in Ohio, noting that the label and the most serious responses often get reserved for physical and sexual violations. Like fellow Complementarians, MacArthur has preached multiple times against women staying with abusive husbands for the sake of marriage and submission. He talked that women and children should quote get to a place of safety in quote and that perpetrators of domestic violence are no longer believing or behaving as believers and have therefore forfeited their right to marriage. Yet as Cho brought up in his letters to key elders last year, a string of women a string of women over the past decade have said has over the past decade said they received different counsel at his church when they fear for their safety or their children's safety. Multiple women named Bill Shannon, a pastor of counseling, an ACBC fellow as discouraging them from reporting abuse to police and directing them to stay at homes where they had been threatened with violence. One couple said they observed the counseling session where Shannon failed to advise a member of their family to report a man who had confessed to an incident of child molestation. He also did not direct her to leave him since he hadn't been convicted. Shannon is among the leaders who did not respond to multiple requests for comment for this story. Current and former elders who also raised concerns about Shannon's incompetent counsel. Cho said MacArthur had been warned about the concerns but as defended Shannon and kept him in the same position. According to the GCC website, Shannon continues to provide quote formal and informal in quote counseling to members, teach the children's premarital and marriage seminar and preach sermons for an adult small group quote. In the first meeting with Bill Shannon, it was made known it was made known that my safety was not the number one priority. It was submission in my marriage, said one woman who asked not to be named in this story because she is attempting to move on from her time at Grace Community Church quote my job was not to rile up was not to rile my husband up. While the woman was hospitalized due to her husband's physical abuse, Shannon called her and advised her to go home without calling police. She told CT at times the torment at home was bad enough that she worried she was going to die. But she said she was told that her situation may be quote God's will for your life. In marital counseling pastors asked wives whether their attitudes contributed to the patterns of violence, anger and manipulation in their, in their relationships. In some situations, they even implied women were looking for fault in their husbands quote. It's hard for a pastor to conceive of a dynamic where a woman is receiving mistreatment, where at some point along the road, she is not expressly responsible for it in quote homestead. This mutilization of sin can take place in church settings where both parties are asked to confess and seek forgiveness from one another quote. Our philosophy is that if there is, if there's been abuse, you don't put them into a room and expect for them to both to go through the process of getting the log out of their eyes said Ken Sandy, a Christian mediator who spoke of patterns he's seen over decades of conciliation ministry, not about GCC in particular. Each of the women CT spoke with said at some point they considered themselves partly responsible for their husbands behavior or had a church leader indicate they were. The women were reminded of the biblical directive for wives to submit to their husbands for years. They had hoped their submission, their faithfulness and marriage and their desperate prayers would eventually lead to change in their husbands. But when issues persisted and escalated, they sought help and counsel on what else could be done. Quote, it takes a tremendous amount of courage, humility and vulnerability to even seek help from the church when there has been abuse in the home in quote said Wendy Gray, who spoke to the Roy's report last year about abuse by her father, Paul Gray, when he was on staff at Grace Community Church in the late 1970s. Quote, women have hidden, preserve, persevere, excuse me, and tried to handle things on their own until there was no other choice in quote she added. When wives felt like they needed to move out for their safety, they said pastors told them to stay. After they had separated or secured legal protection, they said pastors urged them to reconcile. Women told CT that pastors saw their husbands continued involvement in counseling, caring treatment of their kids in supervised settings and verbal promises that the abuse was stopped as indications that they no longer pose a threat. In some cases like those of Eileen Gray and the woman who agreed to a settlement last month, leaders at Grace Community Church went on to support the men they had accused of abuse in legal cases. Although churches may avoid legal involvement and marital disputes for liability reasons, it is not unheard of to have pastors siding with the accused. Pete Singer, the executive director of Grace, golly response to abuse in the Christian environment, said seeing faith leaders defend a perpetrator in court was part of what prompted prosecutor vice division to start the organization in the first place. Quote, it's not unique. It's unfortunately prevalent in child abuse and intimate partner violence as well. It's a reflection of how the pastor has been groomed in quote Singer said, quote, if there's a noticeable power differential, why am I lining up on the side of the person who may be the oppressor and not the person who may be the oppressed in quote. While evangelicals are growing more sensitive to the dynamics of abuse, some conservative communities retain an underlying skepticism around abuse around victims, advocacy movements and trauma informed psychologists defending the place of the local church and addressing marriage conflict. Former members who reported abuse said they fear church discipline for lack of submission or abandoning their marriage. While most evangelical churches have formalized disciplinary processes and written policies and bylaws, it's becoming less common for American churches to follow them in practice and even rarer for a church to publicly announce discipline cases multiple times a year according to Sandy, the Christian mediator. MacArthur considers church discipline quote distinctive in quote at Grace Community Church, where elders follow God Alliance taken from Matthew 18, first confronting the accused privately and then with other witnesses before publicly announcing cases of discipline that have made it to the third stage of the process when unrepentance would preclude a member from participating in the Lord's Supper. Cho, the former elder said at this stage elders must unanimously approve cases that go before the church body a few times a year during monthly communion services. The women who spoke at CT about their counseling experiences have been members of Grace for years, some over a decade, and has sat in the services when MacArthur announced church discipline. They believe that if leaders didn't see their situation as grounds for divorce, the names could be read. Until now, Cho had not publicly spoken about the circumstances that led him leaving GCC and his advocacy efforts since. He hoped Grace Community Church would look back at Eileen Grace case and reconsider the evidence that vindicated her. He repeated pleas to take seriously the concerns about Shannon and the church's counseling. After leaving, he kept contacting top leaders at Grace asking questions and offering to discuss his concerns privately. He emailed MacArthur and Grace to you executive director Phil Johnson, an influential leader and elder at the church. He went back and forth in messages with Carrie Hardy, the pastor who oversaw Grace discipline case and now serves at a church in North Carolina. His appeals drew from scripture, sometimes quoting more than 20 verses on reconciliation, wrongdoing and justice, like James 417, therefore to want to know the right thing to do and does not do it to him in his sin. Whenever he met with or saw elders in person, the case came up in discussion. He texted and called individual members of the elder board to share concerns. Cho never imagined himself being in this position and advocating from outside Grace Community Church. Over almost 17 years of membership there, Cho met his wife, began teaching the word and rose to leadership on the church's board of elders. Quote, I was a vocal loyalist, said Cho, who now objects to what he sees as blind trust among many of the men he used to serve and leave beside. Last year when he questioned the decision to discipline Eileen Gray, he said fellow elders suggested that they just trust the previous leaders who affirmed it. Cho countered that scripture commands us to trust the Lord and examine everything. First lesson on this 521. Cho held out hope. Thinking of a line, John MacArthur was known for saying, quote, time and truth go hand in hand. End quote. The truth eventually comes out. Eileen Gray said hearing about other women who had been blamed, accused and often retraumatized by leaders that Grace motivated her to share her account publicly years later. Once her children were adults, she said immediately after last year's coverage in the Roars report, she said she learned of even more testimonies of mishandled abuse. Quote, would my sharing sooner have brought about change at Grace Community Church or other churches who follow their leadership model? I don't know, but I feel horrible about the enabling effect my silence had, has had through the years. End quote. She told CT in the email. Quote, to this day, I have direct testimonies from a multitude of witnesses that Grace Community Church is still following a similar unbiblical and unloving way of treating abused women and children who cry out to church leaders for help while suffering under their abusive husbands and fathers. This is an egregious sin. Yes, it is. One former member of Grace once excited to move to California to be able to sit under MacArthur's teaching said the faith that had meant everything to her was destroyed by the way the church treated her when she sought help and after an abuse, an abuse of unloving marriage. Quote, the worst thing of all, it wasn't a divorce. It was my relationship with God. I know God is God and man is man, but I really trusted those people at the church, she said. It took that closeness that I had with God away. They made me look differently at men. When I go to church, I feel like the past is aligned. They left me broken-hider. I really feel like I was spiritually raped. End of quote. Grace Community Church has not apologized to Aileen Gray, rescinded its discipline, or made a public statement on the case, nor did it offer a response to the article. Just days after Christmas last year, Chos sent what he called a final appeal to each of these GCC elders. Chos still held out that faint hope. The Lord has so often done far more than I ever could have thought possible. End quote. Even knowing that the board was unlikely to move and that his public stance would upset many, he used to serve and worship alongside. Quote, at the end of the day, I need to do what is right. As the spirit in my conscience and prayer and counsel and the Word all lead me and let God take care of the results, he told CT. And the man who taught me that was John McArthur. I'm just letting that sink in to some of you because I know that there are some of y'all are watching this even right now. And I hope and pray that your pride won't prevent you from doing what is right and making public apologies for what you have said and done to people like Eileen Gray, myself, others who stood in the gap and helped to defend Sister Eileen Gray. And before this live is over, I have some appeals to make. I have some appeals to make and challenges also to make as well too. But that is from the Christianity Today website. You can go there. I'll also put the links in the description below the video here once this live is done. But that's just one report. I want to read to you another one. And I'm not going to read all of it. But this is from the Royal Support. And some of it she refers back to other reports that she's made. But I will highly recommend and encourage you all to read the Royal Support. If you have not followed her channel, follow her channel, follow her website, go to her YouTube channel, subscribe to her podcast. This sister is doing her work. And I will have to agree with Rouge Line in this regard. If the church was doing his job, if men were protecting women and children as the undershippers that they claim to be, there would be no need for Julie Roy. There would be no need for me. And I'm a man. But this is what this one I'm doing here is because the church is not doing the job. And so you rather get mad at people like us instead of getting mad and getting angry at those who are supposed to be shepherds of God's flock and protecting the sheep from within. Forget about without. It's within that we see the problem with now. So this article here, let me see. I will, I'll start at the top, but I might not read all at the beginning, but I'll start here at the top here. Again, this is from the Royal Support. Han Cho, a lawyer and former elder at Grace, I mean at John McArthur's Grace Community Church accused the influential California mega church of awful patterns of siding with abusers and endangering victims in an article published today in Christianity Today. Joe, you asked the question. You said, do you think GCC will ever acknowledge it? Nope. Nope. If they do, it'll be, it'll be a work of God. And it's not that it's impossible with God, but nope. And here's the reason why I say that. Here's the reason why I say that because of pride and because they're going to lose a lot of money. I mean, can you imagine? I mean, just this thing for a second. You've been doing all this covering up. But I mean, as, as, as Han Cho just admitted that there are elders that are still right now knowing that this situation was handed wrong. So if Eileen Grace situation was handed wrong, how many other cases were handed wrong? We know it's more than one. So their pride won't even allow them to admit that they screwed up. And you know why they probably won't allow them to admit? Because they don't see women as fellow image bearers. They may say that they do, but if that were their daughter, I wouldn't know how they would respond. If that were their wife, I wouldn't know how they would respond. But these people have attacked this woman. Eileen Gray have attacked Julie Roy's, have even questioned Julie Roy's sexuality. Yeah, I said it. It implied that Julie Roy's is a lesbian implied it insinuated it in videos, Montana Viking. And if y'all are following these people, don't follow me, please. Because that kind of, that kind of support, I don't, I don't want if you, unless you're going to call these people out publicly, call them out, please stay away from me because I don't, I don't need that type of weakness around me. It is clear that these people are allowing the devil or are the devil themselves attacking God's people because they love their idol so much. And I'm sick of it. I mean, I really am. So, so to answer your question, Joe, no, I don't, I don't, I don't foresee or believe that they're going to call, that they're going to make this thing right. I don't, I don't, they've had time and again, you know, when you have, when you have a lawyer and then this man said it was other lawyers with experience who investigated this. And not only said that, yeah, David Gray was definitely charged rightly and he deserves to be in jail, but also Sister Eileen Gray was right in defending and protecting herself and her family and they treated her like the villain and treated David Gray like the victim. So, so anytime you have people like K-Dubb True and April Chapman and, and Dear World Christian and all, all these people, AKA the mob, defending this, that shows you how deep idolatry runs. But let's get back to the report. Second paragraph says, Joe's testimony confirms the Roars report investigation last March, which detailed how MacArthur and GCC excommunicated and shamed Eileen Gray for refusing to take back her child abusing husband David Gray in 2002. Even after David was convicted in 2005 of child molestation and abuse, the church continued to support David and Spurn Eileen. Joe told CT that after TRs, oh, that's the, that's, that's the Roars report. TR stands for the Roars report. Joe told CT that after TRs initial story published, GCC's elders tapped him to review the decades old case. Notice, they're the ones that told Joe to review it. I mean, listen, listen to this y'all. They want this man to do a job, but then when he does his job well, they want him to stop doing it. Who does that? What they were looking for was a yes man. What they were looking for was a flunky. What they were looking for was a suck up. So they tapped him, they approached him rather to review the decades old case. When he did, he became convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that David Gray was guilty and GCC had committed a terrible, not just an injustice, a terrible injustice. I mean, do we understand what lying does to a person's reputation, to their character, to their ministry, to their name, to their career? I mean, you know how many people have, have been killed over a lie, over a lie. And just like Naboff, his vineyard was taken from him because the Bible says too worthless and the word worthless is, is in the ball where you get no good. There were, there was trash. There were no good men and he lied against Naboff saying, Naboff saying that he had, he had blasphemed the lame of the Lord, that he took God's name in vain and that was a capital offense in Israel and they killed him. They stoned that man over a lie because, because Ahab's wife, Jezebel, wanted the property. Ahab couldn't get it from Naboff. So Naboff goes home crying like a little punk to his wife. His wife now mans up, sets this innocent man up, takes his property over a lie. People's lives have been destroyed, some irreparably destroyed over a lie. And there are some of you under the sound of my voice who support, who subscribe, who watch, who share, those who lie, defame, discredit, malign, cheat, steal and you're doing nothing about it because it's not your toothache. Therefore you don't say ouch. See this thing is, this thing is not only real for me, this thing is personal for me. It's personal for me because, not because the abuse happened to me, but because this has happened to a fellow sister in Christ. I don't even know Eileen Gray. I've only conversed with her online through email correspondence. And it's like she and I have known each other for years just by talking to her, communicating with her. And so when this story broke yesterday, I did reach out to her and when I reached out to her, she said to me, she said, you know, I was going to reach out to you and you know what she said? She said that, here's what she said. She said to me, you have been vindicated. She didn't say I've been vindicated. She wasn't speaking about herself. This woman, this woman said, you have been vindicated brother. You have been vindicated. She hadn't even mentioned herself. I was reaching out to this sister to let her know, sister, God did it. God vindicated you and he, he, he, he lifted you up and all of that, right? This sister said, brother, God vindicated you. He vindicated you. He vindicated Julie. He vindicated Dean and others. See, this is, this is, this is what selflessness looks like. I really, I really am trying to help some of us understand what love is. It's not what you just say. It is what you show and how you show it. This woman wasn't even thinking about herself in this email. She said, brother, I thought of sending it to you today, but I was away from the internet all day. You have been vindicated brother. You and Julie and Dean and others who saw the truth. She, she, she didn't even mention herself. I'm, I'm focused on the fact that God vindicated her. I didn't care about myself. I'm like, man, I'm made for this. Y'all know how I get down. I'm made for this. Bring it. Let's go. What's up? What's good? Cause I'm defending God's people. So that's what, that's what pushes and drives me. But this sister said, no, no, no, no, no, God vindicated you, bro. I was like, no, sis, God vindicated you, but you know what? He vindicated everyone who stood for the truth, because that is what body life is. When one suffers, we all suffer. When one rejoice, we all rejoice. When one is vindicated, we're all vindicated. My dad told me this years ago, and it still rings true. And I say it today. God is always going to be for who is right. Listen, you may not even see it in this lifetime, but sometimes God gives us that little sweetness on this side of the, on this side of heaven to let us know that, yeah, I got y'all. I got you. God is always for who is right. God is always on the side of who is right. Always. Never, ever, ever forget that. If somebody is being abused and being attacked under my watch, and I know about it, and I could do something about it, I'm coming for him. Simple as that. That's just, that's just, that's just how God made me. And my, my role and my responsibility is to help encourage and stir others up and know that this is a battle, y'all. This is a war. Some people, some people have contemplated killing themselves and say, we, we, we mock and we minimize church hurt. Some of y'all don't think church hurt is real because you ended up being hurt by the church. But like the old folks say, keep on living, baby. Keep on living. Keep, keep hanging around church folk. It's going to come. Keep, keep messing around and playing around with church folk. It is going to come. It is going to come. Church hurt is real because you're dealing with real people. And when you are connected to people, this is why some of y'all was talking about me about the soul tie stuff. I'm telling y'all, when you, when you are connected to other people and you're doing life on life, whether the word soul tie is mentioned or not in the scriptures, the concept is Paul said, we, we, we were like, you were like our children to us. We treated you like our sons and our daughters. We were like fathers to you because you were very dear to us. That's a tie y'all. So when you are breaking bread with people, sharing meals with people, you ain't just eating a burger. You ain't just putting hot sauce on chicken. You're doing life with people, man. And this is why for, like for me and my family, me and my wife, we take relationship seriously. We do. And none of us are going to be hurt free. None of us. The thing for us is we have to grow and learn from it and not become bitter and allow God to make us better in it so we can help and bless others. But this situation right here, lives have been affected and God allowed this to happen. So this woman can be a ministry and minister to so many people. This, this is the Romans eight 28 that God has called all things to work together for good. All things to work together for good. It may not look good, but the end result, God said, it's all good. When you're making a cake, it looks messy at the moment. Everything looks, you know, it's all in a bowl. You can't, you can't eat the cake liquid wise. But when God allows you to go into the heat of affliction and it starts forming and shaping itself and molding and making you to what God wants you and I to be, that's the process. Not trying to preach, but I'm just keeping the real with us. This is why I take what we do here at love life and marriage with the woods on the BCV channel. We take it seriously because we know lives are at stake. That's why. But let's continue in a 20 page document that you just, we just read some of it. Submitted to the GCC board, Cho reportedly wrote quote, now that the facts are indeed known, it is not too late to do justice even at this late stage almost 20 years later. So we already read that part, right? Cho told CT that he expected MacArthur and elders to do to right the wrong to this day, the church and MacArthur have not admitted any error or issued any apologies concerning the case. How prideful is that? How prideful is that? After learning of the injustice done to Eileen Gray, Cho reportedly learned of other cases where GCC had counseled women to return to the abusers. This included a case from 2022. We already read about that. He said, Cho said God kept placing reminders in front of him of women endangered by GCC's counseling practices. When my wife and I were asked by a friend to pray for a woman, my wife happened to know we were horrified to discover the same awful patterns of counseling were still happening at GCC. Cho said, this is, this is elder Cho former elder Cho grace community church pray for this man. Add this man and his wife, his family in your prayers, please, because what this man did was unprecedented at GCC. And I know a few elders there that have, that have yet to come forward to speak out because where their account is set up, y'all get the drift. Y'all get the drift. Money makes you do some strange things, even compromise the truth. Keep this man lifting your prayers. Just scrolling a little bit, see if there's anything in the CT article that may not have been here. This is interesting here. Many presses ones have been deeply hurt by GCC's actions, causing some to turn away from their faith in Christ. Matter of fact, let me go at the top, call for a pen and invest independent investigation. This afternoon, Eileen Gray called on grace community church and MacArthur to reprint quote many precious ones. This is from Eileen Gray statement. Many precious ones have been deeply hurt by GCC's actions, causing some to turn away from their faith in Christ. In quotes, she wrote in a text to the Roars report quote, God's name and character have been misrepresented by GCC. It is my prayer. They repent in quote in a Facebook post. Cho stated that that CT, excuse me, article accurately reported his comments and added that he's praying for the abuse victims mentioned in the story Grace Community Church and particularly John MacArthur. Many others responded to the recent revelations on social media. David French, who helped found the dispatch and now writes op-eds for the New York Times, tweeted that quote, a responsible organization would commission an independent investigation and leave no stone unturned in quote. Retroden Hollander, a well-known abuse survivor advocate tweeted quote, this is not a one time mistake. When a case is handled this badly, when women and children are destroyed this thoroughly, it is a product of beliefs which are driving the ministry and the movement. And if your ideas are crushing God's children, you may want to reevaluate them in lighter scripture. Amen. Dylan Holler's husband, Jacob then Hollander added quote, that he is quote proud of how Han has pursued justice for those who were wronged. He is the sort of leader that gives me hope for the church. Amen. Amen. I would love, I would love to have a conversation just to say thank you. If I couldn't interview this brother, I would at least want to say thank you to him. Thank you. May his tribe increase. Similarly, a master's university alum and former GCC member using the pseudonym Meg Wise tweeted quote, I cannot tell you how huge this article is. Han Cho, a very respected elder like so respected, spoke the truth and advocated for Eileen Gray. He pleaded for repentance and he basically got kicked off the board. The Rose report reached out to MacArthur and Grace Community Church for comment, but they did not immediately reply. However, the church published the following message on his website saying it does not quote discuss things details publicly arising from counseling and this discipline cases on social media, nor do we litigate disputes about such matters and online forums. Grace Church deals with accusations personally and privately in accordance with biblical principles, except you put people out when they stand on biblical principles though, but I digress. But this, this link here, the Facebook post, I want to share this right now. Here's the Facebook post that Elder Cho had gave and posted on Facebook regarding Katie Shelnut who wrote the story in the Christian post and I want to read this for the record. Quote, Kate Shelnut of Christianity Today is a sister in the Lord and her competence and character have been attested to by mutual friends who I trust. In December 2022, she reached out to me for official comment on a story she was working on. I promptly made one final private appeal to all of the elders of Grace Community Church after months of private interactions with various elders of GCC since the March 2022 GCC elder meeting when the final internal investigation for the purpose of clarity and reconciliation was candidly discussed. In my final appeal, I requested a response within a week, but for various reasons, including subsequent developments related to John McArthur's health, I waited for a significantly longer than that. As I informed the one elder who was wanting to reply to my final appeal, I was even prepared to wait until the January 2023 GCC elder meeting and I implored him to please let me know if there was any news of John's health that differed from the public statements that he was doing better. Then I heard nothing, which I have sadly come to expect as a response. Shortly thereafter, I was so encouraged to hear the good news and glad tidings from Austin Duncan at the GCC pulpit when he shared that John was recovering well and sounded strong as a bull. And so after even more time and reflection and study and counseling prayer in the interest of calling out a warning, Ezekiel 3 and 33, to cherish GCC congregants whom I still love speaking up for the afflicted, Proverbs 31, exposing unfruitful works of darkness, Ephesians 5, 11, the public critique of public matters, Galatians 2, 14, Mark 6, 14 and Philippians 4, 2, 3. As GCC has done many times in the past, the principles of Matthew 18, and even as a matter of personal integrity, Proverbs 2, verse 7 and 8, as a former ardent and public supporter of GCC who now wishes to make his retraction of that support similarly public, I spoke on the record to Kate earlier this month. I have now read the story, which is full of hard evidence and grievous testimony from a multitude of witnesses, and I believe my own comments are accurately reported and properly presented within context. Although I take relief from the discharge of the demands of my own conscience, this entire matter has certainly been a cause of much sadness to me and to others. I am also intentionally daunted and disconfident to be such a focus of the story, but my conscience would ultimately not allow me to be dissuaded or deterred. There is certainly much more I could say about both this matter and several other GCC matters that have come to my attention largely after my departure via multiple witnesses and hard evidence. My personal preference would be to let it rest here, but that will likely depend on the nature and extent of the response, if any, from GCC and its allies. And I'm glad he said that. In other words, he says, I'm wanting to take this as far as I want to take it, boys. That's what he's saying in so many words. Finally, a note to my earnest friends. Although I would certainly welcome your agreement and support, I do not expect it, nor does it any kind of precondition of our friendship, certainly. There is not a single person on earth with whom I agree on everything, including my own wife and children, and yet the existence of those disagreements do not lessen my love for them in the slightest. If you ever want to talk privately, I would love to do that. We could talk about this or anything at all or nothing in particular. And if we still disagree, that is fine. I only hope and pray that we will be able to disagree well, civilly and in good faith. Many thanks. And we are praying for the afflicted women and children described in the story and elsewhere, the people and elders of GCC, and particularly, John and this entire situation in the name of our precious saviour for his glory, and we would certainly welcome your prayers for us as well. And this is the statement from Kate Schoenert here on the Twitter page. This was about three hours ago, if not a little bit later. Quote, Grace Community Church leaders did not respond to my request for interviews, even to discuss their approach to counseling, abuse and discipline in broad terms. But last night they issued a statement. And this is the statement here. The following statement is from Grace Church elders regarding recent headlines about past counseling cases. Quote, Grace Church elders do not discuss details publicly arising from counseling and discipline cases on social media, nor do we do litigate disputes about such matters in online forums. Grace Church deals with accusations personally and privately in accordance with biblical principles. We do not respond to attacks, lies, misrepresentations, and anonymous accusations. Our church's history and congregation are the testimony. Mirrors of Grace Church members who have sought counsel at our church will testify that the counsel they receive is biblical, charitable, supportive, and liberating. That's their statement. And also the statement here officially is here. As you can see, this is from the gracechurch.org website. You can see that there. Now, I have a verse to bring to bear with that, if you don't mind. And I want to share it. And then I want to also cite a commentary from one of one of church's favorite preachers, whom I'm pretty sure Grace and MacArthur have mentioned hundreds of times in their conferences, in sermons. You name it. You name it. Proverbs chapter 28 verse one. The wicked flea when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion. The wicked flea when no one pursues, but the righteous are bold as a lion. Let me look up what does it say in the message? Yeah, I'm pulling up the message. The wicked are edgy with guilt, ready to run off, even when no one's after them. Honest people are relaxed and confident, bold as lions. Ladies and gentlemen, which one do you think, which person or persons do you think are standing boldly, honestly and willing to talk to whoever or whatever about the truth? Take a wild guess. Just take a wild guess, which one, if I were a betting man, who I would say hands down are able and have been doing so and standing up to the attacks, willing to provide receipts, not hiding behind quote unquote scripture. And as my old friend, late Daryl Kendrick used to say, strip, sure. Well, you're stripping the word of God from his from his intended context to support your sin. Yeah, Proverbs 28 one is what I would say these people are guilty of. Now, I want to I want to do one more thing. And I want to share this. Now, again, I had just as I promised you. And we're pretty much about to wrap this up. And I may even close out with this. This, when I'm about to read to you all, y'all good? Put up a one if you're good. Put up a one if you're good. I'm gonna make sure y'all didn't go to sleep on me. Put up a one in the chat. Facebook family, YouTube family. I see you. All right. Good. This is from Charles Spurgeon. His his his book, Lectures to my Students, Lectures to my Students, the third series. He talks about slander. He talks about being attacked publicly. And he brings some balance. He said that there are times when you should respond and there are times when you shouldn't respond. He said, but in those times that you should respond is when the accusations of a public nature that they're so fierce, that they're so heavy that there must be a response. There must be one, he says. So let me do this. Let me go ahead and share the screen again. Y'all see that? Let me blow it up a little bit for you. Make sure everybody can see it. All right. I'm gonna start here and then we'll wrap this up. He's talking about being attacked in falsely accused and slandered. He says, quote, and I'm reading the highlighted portion. Standing as we do in a position which makes us choice targets for the devil and his allies, our best course is to defend our innocence by our silence and leave our reputation with God. Yet there are exceptions to this general rule. And what are those exceptions, Brother Charles? Yes, you did, Xerix. Yes, you did, Prophet Xerix. Yes, you did. Yes, you did. And so many others. And here we are. But let's continue. He says, yet there are exceptions to this general rule. What are those general rules? When distinct, definite, public charges are made against the man, he is bound to answer them. Now, I ain't say this, Spurgeon said it. He is bound to answer them and answer them in the clearest and most open manner. To decline all investigation is in such a case practically to plead guilty. And whatever may be the mode of putting it, the general public ordinarily regard a refusal to reply as a proof of guilt. Under mere worry and annoyance, it is by far the best to be altogether passive. But when the matter assumes more serious proportions and our accuser defies us to a defense, we are bound to meet his charges with honest statements of fact. In every instance, counsel should be sought of the Lord as to how to deal with slanderous tongues. And in the issue, innocence will be vindicated and falsehood convicted. I can just drop the mic right there. Yep. That is what Charles Spurgeon said in his book, Lectures to my Students. He said, the deal, there are times when defending yourself isn't necessary. I mean, y'all think that when I defend myself, I'm doing it all the time. Trust me, I don't. But when I do, it's because I need to, especially in these social media streets where people are making videos about you. And if you don't defend it and you say nothing about it, especially if it's serious, where people can lose jobs or livelihood or career or ministry or even their own life, you better open your mouth. You better act like your life is on the line. I know I do. And so I don't, I don't tell people, I don't let people tell me when I should defend myself, when I know that these are dangerous, demonic lives. And you would think something like this, MacArthur is known all over the world. So he is under biblical obligation to respond to this. First Peter 315 tells us to give an answer to everything that, to everything, you know, give an answer to the reason, the hope that lies within you and do it with respect. What do you give an answer? What's the given answer? When situations like this arise, you better open your mouth because if not, then you're looking like you're looking like you're guilty and he is guilty. That's why I didn't open up the mouth. Oh, they're guilty and they know that they're guilty. So as promised, in light of these facts, let me, let me ask you this question. Do you believe that that report that we just read, that I just read to you rather is true? Do you believe it? Do you believe that Eileen Gray told the truth? Do you believe that Eileen Gray should be given an apology that she should, she should have forgiveness to be sought by her. They needed, they needed to ask her for forgiveness. They need to ask this woman for forgiveness. This, this woman's life was almost destroyed. If not in certain cases, in certain instances, it probably was, but God kept this woman, just populating the comments. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they need to cut a check. Yep, they sure should, because I'm pretty sure it costs her money to move and do all the, yeah, yeah, and have her identity changed and all this kind of stuff. Oh, yeah, they need, they need, yeah, and they ain't like they can't afford it. No, they got old money up in there. They can afford it. It wouldn't even, it wouldn't even hurt her. Wouldn't hurt her in that one bit. Let me ask you another question and I'm about to list some names and I'm about to go there. I'm about to go there because I told them I'm about to drop names now. Do you believe the following people should either, should either give a statement based on their platform that they have normally, that they normally listen, that they normally report and talk about other matters that happen in Christendom that, that are trending, that is popular, that affects the body of Christ. Do you think those individuals, whether they have podcasts or whether they are ministry leaders, whether they have influence on social media, whether they have either built their channels as a result of this ordeal, this scandal, do you believe that these people, according to scripture, by the way, should render a statement either publicly apologizing, asking for forgiveness or at least doing a story or report on it to acknowledge to the body of Christ that they are aware of these things are going on and what the church should do about this. The following names, Phil Johnson, Phil Johnson, Carl Hargrove, he's an elder at Grace Community Church, Vodibhakam, Todd Freel, Bible Thumping Wingnut, Chris Rosebro, Darryl Bernard Harrison, Virgil Walker, Protestia Damabh, which consists of April Chapman, standard of truth podcast, so much for truth, Jason Whitaker, a.k.a. Dear Walt Christian, Berean Babes, how you're Berean, you don't use the, anyway. Grandma Jo, K-Dub True, the proverbial like podcast, John Harris, from Conversations That Matter, Rick Caldwell, et's all, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, Ricky Gantz, G220 radio, all of them. Do you believe some of them should do it or all of them should do it? Put your comment up in the chat and now populate it. Deacon said, yes, sir, and do it quickly. Amen. My wife said, yep, Christina, yep, at the very least, they need to publicly repent publicly in light of this undeniable truth. Yep. Pocahontas said, all the above. Zarek said, all of them. Jenae said, absolutely. My wife said, yes, all of them again. Oh, Chris Rosebro, he slanted Julie Royce too. He slanted Julie Royce too. Did I say Justin Peters too? Did I mention Justin Peters? If I didn't, Justin Peters too. Definitely Justin Peters. Definitely Justin Peters. If John McArthur would make a sudden stop, anyway, y'all get the drill. These are some of the same ones that have no problem calling out T.D. Jakes and Joyce Meyer and Creflo and Joel Osteen, you know, again, the low hanging fruit heretics. Well, tell you what, we got some heretics. We got some wolves among us too. Freddie said, every one of them. Yep, every one of them. Yeah, we're going to put cases on all of them. Yep. All of them. And here's another question. Here's another question. Here's another question. Where is John McArthur? Anybody thought about that? Anybody asked? Anybody wonder about where is Pastor John McArthur? I know where he is. I don't know if y'all know. I know where he is. He's still sick. He's taking regular dialysis, as we speak. He's not getting better. He's getting worse. Unfortunately, I'm not wishing that on anybody. I'm just giving you the facts. Why is a church, why is Grace Community Church covering that up? You know why they're covering it up. They're doing anything it takes and everything it takes to protect their idol. So they would lie and say that he's doing good. He's sounding strong as a bull. No, he's not sounding strong as a bull. That's why he couldn't finish. That's why he couldn't go to the second service when he when he left the first service and had to be arrested at the hospital, had to have had to have heart surgery. Yeah, he had clots. Those are the facts from reliable and reputable sources that Grace Community Church is not telling people because again, they're lying. They're lying to us. So not only where is John McArthur, but now they're talking about trying to have this man still host the Shepherd's Conference next month. Doesn't the Bible say something about for the love of money is the root of all, is the root of all source of evil? I think it does, doesn't it? Now, I seriously doubt he took it. Now, I doubt if he took it. No, I definitely know he's anti. I think he was anti-jab. Yeah, dialysis. Yep. Yep, dialysis. Yep, you got the confirmation in my text message from reputable sources. McArthur, listen, McArthur's been sick for weeks now. That's why he hasn't been back. That's why they have, listen, and much as McArthur loves to preach and teach and be behind that pulpit, you don't think that man would have been there by now if he wasn't sick? Seriously sick? Yeah. Where's Phil Johnson at? He's not feeling well either. That's why y'all see him on Twitter now. These people are sick, physically sick. John McArthur's wife, Patricia, is suffering with dementia and she's living with her daughter in another state. She does not stay with her own husband. The church McArthur sent his wife to stay with their daughter and their daughter is caring for her mother, his wife, because she has dementia. Thank you for the super chat, sis. Why is the church covering that up and how do I know? Because I got receipts. That's all. The question is, why is Grace Community Church not letting the body of Christ know so that the body of Christ could be praying for these people? When R. C. Sproul, like I said before, when R. C. Sproul was sick, R. C. Sproul wasn't hiding his sickness. He was walking around with his oxygen tank in his wheelchair or rolling around in it, rather. But see, this is what idolatry does. See, idolatry would protect and cover that which they love. Why this man is still pastoring? Why is this man still preaching and teaching because they love their idol? And I'm telling you right now, because McArthur's not going to live long. None of us are, should the Lord, should the Lord tarry, but McArthur is almost on his way out of here. And that's just the cold, hard truth. That's just the cold, hard truth. And yes, that's the fact. Dialysis is what happens when your heart can't pump or remove toxins from the kidneys. He is on at, and the word was, quote, regular dialysis, not periodic dialysis. The word was regular dialysis. You said thoughts on the G3 conference. I don't do any more conferences, not like those, because it's all about the who's who. It really is. I'm being factual, y'all. I'm not hating on anybody, but I know too much to know that that's what it's about. It just is. What's wrong with McArthur's teaching? I mean, overall, I mean, the teaching is not the issue, per se. It's the behind the scenes stuff. It's not necessarily the teaching. If you biblically love Jay Mack, you would correct him talking about it. Yeah, absolutely, but they don't. One man did, and they put him out, and that was Han Cho. So they showed you what they see and how you feel about correction. Correction is only good when they do it, and that's what makes them hypocrites. Exactly, Alex. It's his orthopraxia, not orthodoxy. Exactly. It's how he treats people, not somewhat how he treats the text. So again, just wanted to give y'all the information regarding this situation here. Of course, pray for those that are involved, and I'll say also, applicably in application, hold these individuals whose names are named accountable. Seriously. Seriously. Some of them, some of their channels have grown because they lied. They stole. Not necessarily money that they stole, but they stole people's reputation like mine and others. April Chapman is a thief. Michael Williams is a thief. The mob is a thief. They're thieves. They're liars. They're deceivers, especially Michael Williams. He literally stole from me, and these and these people, the mob, they covered for him. They defended him wearing his stolen merchandise and all this other kind of stuff, and they got the channels popping and everything like that. And again, I'm not sending it because I'm not hating on him. I don't want stolen goods. Anything that I want by God's grace, I've worked for or someone has given it to me because they love what I do. Yes, he did steal money. Yes, he did. Yes, he did. Yeah, he did. Yep. Thieves in the temple. So anyway, I have another live to do at one o'clock. I'm going to be covering the Jason Whitlock and Patrick Bet David controversy. I want to share biblical insight with that. Yes, they will, dear. They will be dealt with in due time. You better believe it. You better believe it. And they helped them contribute. Yes, they sure did. Yes, they did. And they need to be called out. Seriously, they need to be called out. I mean, if we listen, if we're going to talk about Alexander Pagani and Isaiah Salibar, and we're going to talk about, you know, done, young, done, reformed. Listen, we have enough messing issues inside our own circles. That's what certain people are low hanging fruit, man. They're low hanging fruit. But you know what we do? We say, oh, oh, John MacArthur, he's been a faithful exposit. What does that have to do with anything? Read Ezekiel 18. Do you think God cares about the stuff that you've done when you've been doing wrong now? He said, no, that stuff it don't matter to me if you don't repent. He said, I'm not even going to recognize and remember the stuff that you did that was good. If you're not repenting now, we so far, oh, he, he's such a dissent. He says that. Yeah, but he's in sin. John MacArthur is unrepentant. Grace Community Church leadership is unrepentant. They're in unrepentant sin and they need to be dealt with the same way they deal with other people, according to Matthew 18, according to 1 Timothy chapter 5. They're unrepentant. They refuse to repent. So what do you do with people who refuse to repent? God says you have nothing to do with them. Stop supporting their channel. Stop supporting their ministry. Stop sending money to them. Stop recommending people to their church. That's how you do it from a social media standpoint. If you are a member of the church, you leave. No, he never apologized. Nope, and neither did they have day. No, that's how arrogant and pridefully are. So yeah, absolutely. So even if you preach a true gospel, we can live like the devil. Yep, Matthew chapter 7 verse 21 and 23. Yes, both of them are wrong. The entire ministry is wrong. That's why I read to y'all. That's why I read to you the article. They know, they know, and they knew that what they did was wrong. He said it was a, Han Cho said it was a terrible injustice, terrible injustice. And so these people refuse to repent. The God says we're to treat them like Gentiles and tax collectors. We have nothing to do with them. Stop going to their conferences. Stop supporting their material. Stop, stop, you know, sowing into their ministry. Stop doing all that. Hit them where it hurts. Hit them where it hurts. Exactly, Christina. And you know, Kada made one of the stupid and asininated up to statements I heard when he was defending McArthur last year, he said that McArthur is not responsible. He said McArthur is not responsible. Then he went and so far to try to double down and say, that's the church's policy. And this is how they, this is how they dealt with sinning. I'm like, fool. How does that deal with sin when the woman didn't sin? She wasn't the one that sinned. But see, again, idolatry. Idolatry. Yes, they did, proverbs. The mob created a virtual church to discipline Seiko, but we can't call out McArthur. Yeah, I mean, this raised hell unnecessarily so because I was dealing with their idol. And like Cure for the Soul said, Sister Latanya Quinn, she said, it wasn't a problem when I was dealing with, dealing with Marcus Rodgers. It really, it really wasn't an issue. They were still rocking with your boy. But when I started dealing with John McArthur last year, I mean, when I started turning up the screws, when I had Julie Roy's on my channel and we were dealing with McArthur. Oh, that's when, that's when, that's when it all went to pot. And that's when you saw who the real friends were. I mean, I had people out that I had been knowing for almost 15 years turning back on me over this. I mean, I'm not bitter about them. It's stating the facts. It's all good. Yeah, I know, huh? Not all heroes wear capes. Yeah, they need to repent. I would encourage you to stop supporting them though. I would encourage you to, I would not support anyone who refuses to repent and they have, and they have done wrong to people intentionally. Just like I dealt with G Craig Lewis, John McArthur gets the same amount of heat, if not more, because he knows better. Him and his church knows much, they know far better than G Craig Lewis and Marcus Rodgers and the rest of them. Can I please continue to listen to Justin, but I wouldn't listen to none of them. I mean, listen, gifted, listen, being gifted does not make you golly. And being gifted does not mean you walk in golliness. So, so, I mean, to each his own, I'm just saying what I would not support any of these people until they renounce publicly come out and either repent, apologize or say, just like Pastor Cho said, I'm done. I don't want nothing to do with this. This is wrong. Y'all need to repent. If they don't do that, why would I support them? Why would I report them? I mean, why would I, why would I support them? I'm going to report them instead of support them. So anyway, that's my time, y'all. I'm going to end it here. Again, thank you for the Super Chat, Sister Levina. Thank you so much. Those of you who joined this live, please share this video. Please share this video. This video needs to go out. This video needs to be shared on your channel as much as possible on your platform as much as possible. People need to know and read this story. They need to read this story. They need to follow up with this information and they need to hold these individuals accountable. Hold them all accountable. Just like they want to hold other people accountable. Hold them all accountable. Yeah, he's the one hit one. He's he's he's some other things too, but I'm gonna try to stay safe. But anyway, I am done. I'm done. And I was just gonna do these comments and let you guys go. So I'm trying to get out here before the two hour mark. Y'all, y'all hold me up. That's fine. So you're okay. I just want to make sure that we were, I want to make sure that was clear. Okay, somebody else wanted to know that question too. So it's cool. But anyway, all right. So anyway, I'm done. See you guys another hour. I'm going to be again going live at one o'clock to address the Jason Whitlock, Patrick Bet, David, controversy. All right. So anyway, that is my time. I thank you all so much for yours. Y'all know the drill. Whatever you do, do I take going out of God? God bless.