 What were you doing in real estate in Las Vegas? I was working in new homes. I was working, I started in 2003, right? When everything got, got going, you know? And- You were the guy in the big short movie. You know, it's funny because there's a scene in the big short where they go to the strip bar and there's a, you know, and the stripper's like, oh, I'll do your loan and everything. And in actuality, in 2004, I was working for Dell Web, which is an active adult community, it's 55 and older. It's a great community. There were, it was a massive sales office. There's 20 of us in there and I come in and because there's so many sales people, we're on like a rotational basis and the lady at the front desk, you know, the next person up, you know, you get who you get. And I get this agent, nice looking agent lady and her client who has not slept at all. It's obvious to me, this guy is like barely functioning and he wants to buy a house or he thinks he wants to buy a house. This is his real estate agent. He goes to, we discussed the whole thing. We go through the models, I show him all the houses. She goes to the restroom and I said, so have you been working with your agent for a while? And he goes, man, I just met her last night at Cheetahs. And I was like, really? And then as soon as he's done and I'm like trying to contain myself because I know exactly. So she sits down and she says to me like, I said, so is this a, like how are we doing on finance? Are we doing cash? Is this good? She goes, oh, I'm a loan officer. I'm going to do his loan. I go, of course you are. So the big short was like a documentary to me. Wow, that's a great story for people who don't know, Cheetahs. Yeah, Cheetahs, an adult male, a men's adult dancing facility in Las Vegas. Yeah, yeah. And then where did that, where did that lead you in terms of the current stuff that you do? So in 2007, I read Perkins book, Confessions of an Economic Hitman. And I go, oh my goodness, this is changing my life. You know, like it just changed my life. And I realized that the scam that they were running on this big massive scale was something that we were doing on a smaller scale. Not me personally, I didn't know. We were just extending loans to people that had no business getting a loan. And then that loan was packaged up and sold. Like, you know, I would say to our lender, how can we qualify this guy? And they say, what difference does it make? We're going to sit on this loan for a day, maybe. We're going to sell it out the back door with all the other loans and it's not our problem. And I was like, oh, but that doesn't sound like a sustainable business model. And they're like, yeah, whatever, you know? So that was the... So that happens, the market tanks. I've read Perkins book. I'm now realizing that I'm living through this, you know, extend imaginary money to people that can't afford to pay it back. And then when they fall behind, take back something tangible in Perkins case, take back, you know, make the country of Ecuador, privatize their fishing industry and sell it off to your buddies or build a U.S. base or vote a certain way in a UN resolution or some crappy deal that the country didn't wanna do. We were sort of doing that same thing where the feds printing up this money that just typing it in their little keyboard and creating this money and the lenders are lending it out to these people when they default, which they're going to, especially when everything starts to tank and they're upside down, then the lenders just take back tangible assets, take back physical houses in exchange for this paper money that they had insurance policies on anyway. So the whole thing, as the scam starts to unravel, my brain is breaking and I'm going, oh no, oh no, I'm part of this, I was part of this. And I transitioned out of new home sales and into working with my current situation now as my two business partners that are in Las Vegas and they do what we do, we're a real estate brokerage but we also do home renovations, home flipping to the point where we had a show on HGTV for a couple of seasons, Flip or Flop Vegas and my partner's this husband and wife, she's a real estate agent, interior designer, cheerleader. He's a general contractor, MMA fighter, good looking guys, really nice people, super amazing at what they do. I saw that show, I saw that show, I didn't make the connection, but yeah. Yeah, so they go around, buy these houses and we've got this sort of Vegas glam thing that we do, which is like paint a wall pink when it shouldn't be pink and people go, that's crazy. And then they're like, and then one person's like, I love it. And so we sell the house to that person. So it train, I'm still in real estate, but I'm not in that, I'm in a sort of an unusual segment but because of that, because of that book, because of that John Perkins book, it just changed me. It just woke me up to like what was going on and that really was the step, like, how did you get involved in it? I'm fascinated about what you're doing. You've got this really interesting blend of science and is it science versus spirituality or is it science plus spirituality? Well, I think it is science plus spirituality, but I'd say before we even get to that, when I first heard you, Charlie, one of the things I appreciate, I appreciate people who have that business sensibility and like even because that's my background. I was just going for the money, you know, and I was in the high tech business, very fortunate that I had a computer background in college. I was just kind of naturally drawn to that. I could kind of do that. And it seemed like other people, I went to Western Illinois University, which is kind of considered, a lot of people don't know, but it's kind of the Harvard of McDonough County, Illinois. Okay. There you go. McDonough. I noticed that Tony, didn't Tony Romo go to Eastern Illinois University? He did. Is that your rival? We beat, I played football there. That's how I went there. And we beat Eastern Illinois. We did. We took them down. It was a big game. There was a big celebration. We went to TC's after it and a lot of guys barely made it home at 6 a.m. So yeah, that was a big deal. In the computer business though, like what were you doing? Well, so I kind of started there and then I went and I did, which is all kind of interesting in a way, but I got a job at Price Waterhouse where if you have a computer degree, they put a Brooks Brothers suit on you and bill you out at 2.50 an hour, even though you're just out of college and you don't know anything, but that's how they make money. And then I became disillusioned in that. Well, I had an MBA. I'd gotten that because I was at Western for five years. Western is just in the cornfield. I mean, it's just a place I played football on the cornfield. And then I went back. I thought I wanted to pursue academia and I went back to University of Arizona to get a PhD in artificial intelligence. And I was there and I did that for a couple of years and I taught classes at University of Arizona and stuff like that. And then I was like, fuck this. I really want the money, which is what I wanted all along. And I had done some consulting gigs for Texas Instruments in DuPont and I was into this AI stuff and it was kind of taken off. And I started a company. It was called MindPath Technologies. I was into AI. And I failed. I kept the company, but I just kind of failed on the concept over and over and over again and kind of got my ass handed to me. But it was a great learning lesson. Anyone who's an entrepreneur goes through the same process and we all have to learn. And I kind of stuck with it. 10 years later, I was able to sell my company to a publicly traded company and Bingo. And then I made some very fortunate real estate investments with a family member who was into that. And hey, you know, it all worked out great. So all along though, I was a yogi. Oh really? Yeah. And philosophical and the physical practice too, but really the philosophical spiritual practice. So I've always kind of been down these two paths. So when I started podcasting, it was like to look at this spirituality that I thought was real. Why doesn't science think it is real? But I did want to kind of roll that back to, because I couldn't mean this more sincerely. When I first heard you on Greg's show, Hire Side Chats and talking about the global octopus kind of thing, which has always been a fantastic metaphor for kind of talking about it. Yeah, not mine. I didn't invent it, I agree. Danny Castellero's got the octopus. I put a quote in the book from John Francis Hyland, the mayor of New York City in 1922, talking about the sprawling octopus that he describes as the Rockefeller family and their interests and things like that. But yeah, what a great metaphor, huh? It is, you know, it's something that lives in the bottom of the deepest, darkest ocean. You know, especially the big ones, right? And we can't see it. And it has all these quarks. It's real smart. It can change colors. It can change textures. It can spray ink and blind you and disappear or it can stay and fight with that hidden beak that's underneath it. It's one of the most intelligent creatures. They've done studies where if it's been through a maze in a cave and you could, up to three years later, it will remember how to get back through that. I was really interesting, maybe even alien in nature. Yes. These octopi and that it describes these people as well that are able to change their shapes and colors and textures and they're able to tear you apart if you get too close and don't know how dangerous they are. Oh, just everything about it works for me. Awesome. I mean, you are brilliant at communicating this stuff. You really are. And the other thing I really appreciate, I love how you return us to the humor in it. The humor in all this, the humor in the human condition. And you can't, it's so heavy, but at the same time, that's always been kind of your vibe too, right? Yeah, it has been and I get that. I have that vibe because that's how information has been delivered to me in a way that sticks like the John Stewart idea of comedy where the Daily Show where he would, he'd tell you a very important story and it would be serious and it would be impactful. But he'd do it in a way where he kind of had some fun with it and so you'd wind up laughing at the absurdity, but at the same time, you'd have this retention of the information. So I always thought, well, if I'm gonna write when I wrote the octopus, I was like, God, you go through it and there's so much darkness in there and so much evil. And I thought, well, you know, I might have to lighten it up a little bit, where I could. So that's where the quotes from Carlin quotes from Rogan and Bill Hicks come in and it allows people to kind of laugh at the absurdity of it all. And I think that that's needed. I think that that's kind of healthy to have that. And I don't think it's, I mean, there's one thing to be disrespectful in laughing at people that are being hurt, right? In front of you and being disrespectful. We're not doing that. We're just, we're laughing at the absurdity of it all and it is laughable and in danger. Obviously, like you said, you kind of have to, you have to laugh to keep from crying about a lot of this stuff. But I don't think that it's disrespectful to have a good laugh at what some of these people are doing on the planet. It's crazy. Absolutely. I think it immediately kind of transcends you. In a lot of ways, I think it's very spiritual kind of thing. There was a lot of spiritual connections to the riddles, to the laugh, to the joke that it all is. And I think comedy can get us there in a way that we don't even recognize. By the way, have you seen the John Stuart thing on the Wuhan lab? Yes. Okay, so we might even play that later for people who aren't aware of it on Stephen Colbert. And I mean, that is level three. Where you got to kind of like, he knows what, what, you know, he knows what's up. He knows what they'll accept and what they'll, I mean, he gave Stephen Colbert his shot. So John Stuart did that for me. And I put a quote in the octopus book from Joe Rogan, talking about John Stuart, explaining that he felt that way too. And I actually didn't realize that I felt that way about John Stuart until I read the, I think I heard the Joe Rogan quote and then I typed it out. And I thought that's exactly why I connected with John Stuart all this time. And so it didn't even really occur to me, but it's that, it's that skill, I think that, that some people have. John Stuart has it, Joe Rogan has it. This ability to talk about serious things in a way that is lighthearted, that allows you to, that doesn't come across as being disrespectful to the topic or the serious nature of it. And you know, you give it all of the respect that it deserves, but you can still laugh at. Time out, time out. We've gone there. We got, I'm gonna play this clip into the show. Well, what do you mean by that? Do you mean like, there's a chance that this was created in a lab, there's an investigation? A chance? Well, there's evidence I'd love to hear. I still know. There's a novel respiratory coronavirus overtaking Wuhan, China. What do we do? Oh, you know who we could ask? The Wuhan novel respiratory coronavirus lab. The disease is the same name as the lab. That's just, that's just a little too weird. Don't you think? And then they asked the scientists, they're like, how did this, so wait a minute, you work at the Wuhan respiratory coronavirus lab. How did this happen? And they're like, mm, a penguin kissed a turtle. And you're like, no, I, you. So, so that's it, right? That's what we were talking about. Yep. He, he, he's great at this, you know? He, he knows, and actually during, later on in that, he gets to the point where John, or where Colbert tries to cut him off and John Stuart jumps up out of his seat and act physically walks towards the camera because he knows that the camera will follow him. And, and so he, he continues on his, Stephen Colbert tries to get him off topic, tries to, you know, tries to step on all of his jokes. And because he felt, he could, you could tell, he just, he looked uncomfortable. He didn't know what to do. And John Stuart's like, I am going to burn this place to the ground right now. No, I, I see that that's the part. And this is a great dialogue. And one that I don't hear people, especially in our community having enough is that I get that. But at the same time, John Stuart is completely controlled, not, not, not completely controlled. That isn't fair because he's not completely controlled. This is the complexity of the thing. This is the head blowing up. We don't really know what John Stuart really knows. We don't know the extent to John, that John Stuart is being manipulated. But when we look at his last show, we see that he is part of this process of like, you know, where the famous thing where they show the, the talking point and it comes out simultaneously on 40 different local stations are all reading it. John Stuart is not removed from that. As you mentioned before, he somehow knows the line and he does have some kind of moral compass that he has to follow. And I wanted to throw Joe Rogan in there too. I think Joe Rogan has done tremendous, tremendous benefit, you know, for so many people in terms of, quote unquote, waking up. I hate that term, but we'll go with it in terms of exposing truth, in terms of parapolitical stuff. But go look at Joe Rogan about 9-11. Joe Rogan, whether, again, I don't know if it's really what he believes, if he's that unable to kind of dig through that, which we all have these kind of problems with the truth, as you mentioned in so many ways. But he's like a 9-11, oh, I can't go there, I can't believe. It's like, Joe, how can you be woken up about this and not woken up about that? For people in our community, this does not really wash. And we've seen it so many times in terms of a lot of these people turn out to be kind of controlled opposition, double agent, triple agent spy versus spy stuff, what do you think? And it's frustrating too, because you want them, you feel like, oh, you're so close. You're so, just go one more step and you're almost there, turn that corner and you'll see, you'll see, just come look around the corner, you'll see, it's all laid out, and they'll stop a little bit short and you go, ugh, it's disappointing. So it's a weird sort of balance for us, because it's like, like you said, on the one hand, Joe Rogan has been instrumental at waking people up to a variety of things. Obviously it's well known for the DMT and psychedelics and that component. And I'm tremendously grateful that he's doing that. I would like more, you know, if I were, I think people have legitimate problems about some of the guests that he brings on. I mean, Mike Baker is a CIA agent who is on that show five times, you know, he's been on there at least twice a year for the last three or four years. I mean, I don't know how many times he's been on there, but there's a lot of this, right? You go, oh, that guy? Like seriously, you're gonna bring that guy on? And then, you know, so I guess we can't, I don't know, I guess we can't win them all and we want everybody to be- Wait a minute though, that's the question, Charlie. Is it a can't win them all situation? Or is it a controlled opposition situation? Because we know that, we know this is a method that, I mean, this is like playbook number one is make sure you have a lever in the organization. So whether it's you're infiltrating whatever group, whether it's a leftist group or a righty group or a gun group or a Timothy McVeigh who is controlled from the beginning and he's really infiltrating the group and then he becomes the, I don't wanna go down there, but one of the things that's great about talking to you, Charlie, is I can bring up almost any one of these topics including UFOs, including anything and you've, the tentacles, your tentacles have spread out, have spread out as well. So, but back to the point, everything that you're saying about Rogan also fits in the somewhat controlled opposition and I don't want people to take that the wrong way. It's not like I believe that Joe is sitting in the back room with a secret phone that he picks up and gets instructions. The controlled part is an interesting concept because you would think that you could control some, you know, you would think that as worst, like let's say the new podcasters struggling to get someplace, you think you could control them because they need you, they need money, they need something, but in actuality, when you're just doing your podcast for fun and you have no financial stake in it, you can really kind of say whatever. It's hard to control somebody that doesn't have much of a financial stake, but once you get to be like a Rogan and you go, God, I'm making $35, $40 million a year doing this show, I don't want it to stop, this is the best job I've ever had. How do I keep this going? And you start to keep it going and then you start to realize, okay, well, I better not step in that landmine and I better not step in that. And then now all of a sudden you're automatically taking away what made the show great. The part about the Rogan show that got me into it was years ago, 10, it had to have been 10 years ago because I remember where I was when I was watching it and he's having a conversation with Duncan Trussell about jerking off into the multi-dimensional universe and how there's a million versions of himself out in the universe jerking off. And I'm going, this is the conversation I never knew I wanted to hear, you know? Like this wacky, totally nonsensical topic that these guys got onto. And they were talking about it for like 30 minutes and I thought, this is great. This will never be on television. This is hysterical and bizarre. And now, you know, now the money's involved. And so it's got to change. It has to change. And even though he had all the money in the world, probably before that, or, you know, enough to definitely live, I don't know. Yeah, I don't, that's, this is gonna get us back to the very beginning of this conversation and I wanted to return to the money thing. I think money is such an important, a paradigm, such an important lens through which we need to look at this. And I have just kind of a different perspective on it because it's just been different for me for quite a while. You have to kind of get a little bit of money and then you have to live with it for a while and really have it settle in. And it kind of changes your perspective. What I was trying to say, the way they do it in science is kind of, a guy wrote a book a long time ago, a business book, Who Moved My Cheese? And it was really about how to manage people. And it's kind of, if you think it through, it's kind of a little bit of a depressing title, but it's like, you can manipulate people by moving the cheese. The rats are running through the maze. And when you move the cheese on the other end, the rats take a different path because they want to get to the cheese. And that cheese moving thing, the rats are unaware that they're running the maze. They're just looking for the cheese. Well, this is how it's done in science. In science, it's grants, it's promotions, it's tenure, and it's weeding out people who won't run the maze. And at the end of the day, you have the science you want. It's not like Neil deGrasse Tyson knows that he's intentionally kind of promoting this ridiculous idea that you're a meaningless universe in your biological robot. He doesn't go home and practice that and get that out. They've just moved his cheese. I think that's what explains Rogan. I don't think Rogan is getting, Rogan, everything about Rogan, the reason that we love Rogan is he is this independent guy. He is this MMA guy. He is this DMT. I do what the fuck I want in a flotation tank. I think all of that's legit. I think the process of moving somebody's cheese is something that these guys have mastered. And I think the way that it manifests itself and works out is very, very difficult for any of us to perceive in terms of how that's really being done. And just, so I'll leave that, but I want to return to Duncan Trussell and the evil thing. And the Damian Eccles, the West Memphis three. And Damian Eccles is the guy who raped and killed three kids in West Memphis, Arkansas. And Duncan Trussell is wrapping his arms around him. Why? Why is Johnny Depp wrapping his arms around him? Why? And I think it relates back to this deeper story that we're gonna get into, but I'm gonna lay our 14 different questions because I also want to talk about the money thing. So I'm gonna ask you to return to those two points. One is the move their cheese. And these guys don't even have to be aware of the extent to which they're manipulated. And also then we'll move into talking about evil and the money thing. Yeah. Well, the moving of the cheese, you know, you say, it's an interesting thing you mentioned about Neil deGrasse Tyson. And it reminds me of the quote from Noam Chomsky, where he's getting into a discussion or I don't even know if it's the beginning of an argument or it's a disagreement with a guy who's interviewing him. And the guy interviewing him says, wait a second, what are you saying? You're saying that I don't believe the things that I'm saying. And Noam Chomsky says, no, no. What I'm saying is you wouldn't be sitting in that chair if you believe something different. And the guy just kind of was like, oh. And that's what it is with, I think with Neil deGrasse Tyson. He wouldn't be there on Joe Rogan's show or on the history channel, discovery channel and all these things if he believes something different. So I don't doubt that he believes the things that he believes. That's a brilliant point. Tell me what you think about that relative to what we were talking about. John Stewart and Joe Rogan. I think Joe Rogan is on a quest to see what he believes and maybe he believes Mike Baker, maybe he doesn't. I don't know that he necessarily, I'll tell you this, I'll say this about Rogan. I don't know that he necessarily has to or does agree with everybody that he brings on his show. So I don't know that that is a requirement, a prerequisite of going on the show is that Joe Rogan is necessarily gonna endorse everything that you say. Makes it less uncomfortable, if there's some sort of a commonality there. But I think that, I don't know, I don't know Joe. I don't know Joe either. But I think your point is brilliant. It's straight out brilliant. That's Norm Chomsky's point I guess. We'll give him the credit. Here's what I'd say, what you're putting together is, whatever you think about Joe Rogan, he won't remain in that seat if he believes what he isn't supposed to believe. You know what I mean? Cause that's to your point, right. At Spotify with that deal, with all that money and all that pressure and all that stuff. If you start to get a little too far off the reservation, they'll let him fight with the woke morons and all that stuff, which is fun. But if he gets off and starts going on to, I mean, what we saw, we saw what happened. When he got off, when he said I did the Ivermectin and I threw the kitchen sink at it, the establishment went hysterical. And they said, you're taking horse paste and I hope you die and blah, blah, blah. And they just freaked out. I don't even think that's the end of it really. I mean, I think that is part of the play and we're not sure how to make that. Cause Joe makes just as many friends when he does that. Trent friends in our community. He strengthens our community. And then we can all get mad at CNN and you know, how can they do that? And the same with John Stuart. I think your point in the Norm Chomsky point is much subtler. And that's that if Joe, if Joe strays too far, if his organic move the cheese message gets too far off point, the next thing you know, he just kind of fades in some way that you don't even understand. And I think we have a perfect parallel for it that we do understand is when we talk about shadow banning. It's a shadow banning kind of thing. It's like, dude, what's going on? My post used to reach 100,000 people. And now for some reason, I don't know, they only reach 50,000. What's going on? They have so many plays in their deck that we wouldn't even be able to tell that, hey, Joe Rogan isn't as popular as he was a year ago. No, it's devious. And they're doing it now, obviously, that we've all lived through the censorship. And the censorship is an interesting thing because you can quantify these, you can quantify in your example of I used to get 100,000 views, now I'm getting 50,000. They're definitely manipulating that. That's a measurable number. But what about the different version of censorship? What about the self-censorship that you put on yourself because you know that if you talk about this one particular topic that that is going to, it's gonna trigger some algorithm that's gonna come out and take you down from 100,000 to 50,000 or whatever, or at least that's your perception that that could happen. And so you say, internally, I'm not gonna go there. How do you quantify that? How do you measure that? That is probably the most devious form of censorship, self-censorship where you can't measure it and you can't, and you feel bad inside and some part of you knows that you're not saying what you really wanna say. And then, oh, I mean, that's just the devious component to this whole thing. Yeah, that's a great point. Let's talk about, because I did wanna return to the money thing. And I think your lived example is part of it, especially when you connect it to the economic hitman. So you're there in Las Vegas and you're doing these, what they used to call them, what did you guys call them? What was the term of the trade that you guys used? They called Ninja loans, which was no income, no asset. And yeah, really what it was was anybody that wanted a loan and could provide documentation, could get a loan. Like, so as an example of this where it really kind of hit me was a guy came in and he wanted to buy this house. It was $405,000. And he filled out the mortgage application and I sent it over and I don't know whether to give, I mean, he was being honest and he made like $10 an hour. And I thought, there's no way. I feel, I actually felt kind of bad for wasting my mortgage guy's time because I was gonna send over this application. And I was like, this is just kind of pointless, but we do what we do. So I sent it over and they're like, how much does he wanna put this down? I couldn't believe we were even having the conversation. I was like, are you going to approve this guy? They're like, yeah, whatever. And I said, oh, oh. But here's the thing about that. Here's what I'm gonna kind of skeptical you a little bit. Okay. There's a realness behind that. So I mean, I think one of the things I think people get caught up on and it's the same thing we can go there with, we can scale it up to confessions of an economic hitman, which we will in a minute because I think it's important to do that. It's not that the whole housing business was completely corrupt. People need to buy houses. And the only, it's a gift that we have a lending economy that people can go out and put down a relatively small amount of money and then work off the loan on their mortgage. That's fantastic. If you go to other countries where you have to, you know what they have to do? They have to go generational, build up all this money to be able to go buy some little plot of land. It don't work well. It works much better this system. So the fact that somebody figured out a way to rig the system and we've referenced the movie, The Big Short, which really I think gets a little bit closer to, how the corruption, that to me is much more understandable in terms of how that plays out, in terms of ordinary greed, in terms of people on Wall Street who are packaging those loans, the lenders and the insurance companies who are ensuring different trenches on all that. You can kind of get there from here kind of thing, lack of regulation where we do really need regulation in the face of kind of capitalism that can run free. Capitalism is the best system but it has to be regulated because we have to contain that greed. To me that isn't so impossible to understand and here is kind of my rub on you a little bit, I get frustrated when I hear people in the Truth or Community who can't deal with the reality of business economics money. It's like, no, fucking be glad you have a fucking mortgage. Be glad that you can go out and buy a home that you can live in because that's a good deal. And if you don't think it's a good deal, then you just wait because what they're bringing forth for you with your monthly income from the government and the subsidized housing, you will not have, that will be so far out of your reach that you will long for the day when you could go out and buy a home, buy a small farm, buy a plot of acre, that's not in their future. So just be careful when you're pissing on all that kind of stuff. And I think it takes kind of some tough-minded understanding of business economics and how money works, and it's not a do what you love and the money will follow world, it just isn't, I'm a very spiritual guy, but that isn't how money works, money doesn't care, and money will reward the guy who makes 18 hours a day of cold calls on shit that nobody else wants to sell, but really has a high profit margin. That's how money works and just kind of get over it. And I don't know, maybe that's enough to kind of have a reality check about money. Let me tell you, let me give you an example of what I saw in this, when I was working for, I was working for a company called Sentex. Okay, Sentex was later purchased by Polti and I was selling new homes for Sentex and my boss that I worked for was not a good guy. And he brought us into a meeting one day and he said, okay, so this is 2006, tail end of 2006 and the market is starting to just kind of stall out a little bit. And as new home builders, we've got land inventory, we've got land development costs, that's a two year project, things are, there's a process, right? And we can't afford, and we've made calculations based on trajectory of our sales and where things are going, we can't afford for things to stall out, it's bad. So in order to keep things going, we, not just us, but the home builders around the valley were offering incentives, incentive packages. And we actually got the consumers trained to when they walked in the, this is new home sales. So this is not like traditional real estate. This is kind of a hybrid of it. So in new home sales, you walk through the front door of the sales office and the customers would say, what kind of incentive package do you have right now? That was the question that people were asking. And that might be, there's nothing inherently nefarious about that. That might be $10,000 for closing costs and maybe an extra $5,000 you can use to buy down your interest rate, whatever. Those are the things, but as sales stalled further, those incentives got greater. And then it got to the point where we had basically a bucket of money to play with and we could use that a variety of ways. So in this one example, Guy comes in, we've got $100,000 of incentive money to play with. The houses I'm selling are going from $300 to $500,000. So you can use this incentive money a couple of different ways. If you buy the $500,000 house, you could take $100,000 off the price of the home and pay $400,000 for it in this example. Or you can use a little bit for closing costs, use a little bit to buy down your rate and take whatever's left over and take that off the price of the house. That's what most people did. As things got even more stalled out and the sales weren't there in an effort to stimulate it even further, we had a sales meeting and my boss said, you can use that money and do whatever you want with it. And I was like, what do you mean? And so what wound up happening in this scenario was I raised my hand and I said, have we run this by our legal department? And his response was, I'd rather beg for permission. I'd rather beg for forgiveness than ask for permission. And I go, hang on, man, we all have real estate license involved here. We're not going to participate in illegal things. I was later fired for this, but this is what we were doing with the money. We had a couple come in wanting to buy a $500,000 house. They can't qualify for this house. I've sent their stuff over to the lender. The lender says, they both have car payments. They both have credit card debt. And he goes, how much incentive money do we have to work with? I go, well, we have $100,000. He goes, if we use that to pay off their credit cards and pay off their cars, now I run their ratios and they're in line. And I go, that's mortgage fraud. And he goes, yeah. And I said, I'm not doing that. And that's when I said to my boss, this scenario, I go, have we cleared this earlier? And he said, I'd rather beg for permission or forgiveness than ask for permission. And I said, to my buddy who was the broker of all of us and my partner in this thing. I said, we've got problems, man. He's asking us to commit a crime. And both of us were fired within weeks of that for refusing to go along with this. So I watched them manipulate and commit crimes. I watched them. And I watched them instruct us to do the same thing. And I couldn't do it. And I knew that that, so the guy that in this scenario with the $500,000 house is, and I'm going, how are we gonna get the appraisal to come in? And they're like- Yeah, but Charlie, at the end of the day, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? Because your story can be read both ways. Yeah, I- We have laws in place to kind of throttle that craziness which is capitalism run amok. And that's the only way our capitalistic society works is let the buyer beware, but also beware on the seller that we're gonna put your ass in jail if you do stuff illegally. Now we can point to the fact that who goes to jail and not the right guys went to jail, but I would still come back to the point of there is an underlying fundamental usefulness of that system. I just want to kind of put up a little bit of a speed bump on that, you know, oh my God, we can never do it because the guy is out there. And the same thing, I'll just throw this in at the end. Same thing with the economic hit, man. We'll talk about that for a minute, is shameful, shameful, shameful to go to Uganda and force them to take that 500 million to build a hydroelectric dam that they don't need. But you know what's more shameful is for those fucking Chinese to go in there and turn them into another North Korea. Cause there's nothing in the world that's worse than fucking North Korea. And it's real and it happened and those people live, you think we have mind control and we do all over the place, but imagine being mind controlled by the state from the time that you're born, you know. So would the economic hit guy who didn't write the book, who is doing the deals, would he come here and kind of bear his chest with the red, white and blue and say, wake up pal, you know, you can't handle the truth. The truth was it was either us or China in Uganda. Who do you want? Yeah, there's that for sure. There is that dilemma that I think all of those guys probably have that thought during this process is, you know, okay, so I've used this example plenty of times before. If Anderson Cooper decides that he's gonna go on air tonight and have an epiphany and just to come to Jesus moment, he's gonna lay it all out about the vaccines and everything. He's just gonna have his Jerry McGuire manifesto moment where he's just gonna spill it all. Good for him, but it's gonna be a hundred guys in line to fill his place and they'll fill it tomorrow. There'll be a new guy there doing that. So it is that question of, is it the devil that you know or the devil that you don't know and I, it's a struggle. It's a struggle to, and yeah, you're right. If we don't do it, someone else probably will and will they have our values in line? Does America even have our values in line anymore? I mean, I think there's an argument that that has gone too. So it is, I think you bring a really interesting component to this, which is reality. You talk about the reality of the situation. We can talk about theoretics and everything, but you say, no, no, this is how it works. Money, you know, these guys are making money being economic hit men. They may have a moral hesitancy as well. They may have as much of one as I do, but if they also believe that at least it's going to be us and not some other entity doing this and they can sleep with themselves at night, then in their minds they've done nothing wrong. And so that's a really fascinating thing to ponder because like in John Perkins case, it got to him. At a certain point it got to him and I think it had more to do with his later interest in the rainforest and the ecological component of this and what he was doing. So maybe in his mind, he saw it as what I was doing was bad to the earth. Fuck Brazil or Ecuador or Uganda or whoever. I'm not worried about them, but I can't reconcile what I'm doing to the planet. So in that case, maybe he could no longer justify it from that standpoint, but I certainly... Which as you know is mostly bullshit. The whole environmental thing is mostly bullshit and I'll just hit it. I got this guy coming on the show and I've kind of listened to his show and listened to his interviews and kind of read his book and he was one of the founding members of Greenpeace and he came out as a whistleblower. The rainforest thing is contradicted by the satellite data that we have. We can see how big the greenery is and the greenery is not reducing. You go to the oceans and the overfishing which maybe is a problem, but actually the level of harvesting of fish, people get mad at the wicked tuna shows and all that kind of stuff. Steady for about the last 20 years. Same, it's not declining, it's steady. We all know about the global warming kind of total scam, total overrun. And I guess that's so interesting that the confessions of an economic hitman was woke to a reality that is a fake reality that we are destroying the planet. It's funny how our paths are kind of similar in like you're talking about the confessions of an economic hitman kind of opening you up. Conspiracy kind of opened me up in saying, wow, this seems so curious that these guys would lie about all this and be intentionally deceptive. And I thought science was different and it isn't. And that's what kind of led me to some of the conspiracy stuff. But now that I'm totally into the conspiracy stuff, I wanna pull a lot of people back and say, you know, where are you going with this exactly? And are you being co-opted? Just like all the problems you see. I love the Flat Earth thing. I think I would talk about Flat Earth till the end of time cause if that isn't a Psyop, I don't know what is. If you're in this truth or community and you even, I have friends who do shows, big shows and they're spherically neutral and we can't claim that they got you, man. They totally got you because now you are dismissed by all the normies out there. Yeah, and it's, but it's part, like you said, it's part of this divide everybody into smaller groups. Keep them fighting with each other. That's fine. Although there's not much fight in the Flat Earth community. I think most people just are dismissive. And I know some of the guys in the Flat Earth community. Nice guys, the nicest guys actually. But they had, and they had me on the show. These two guys had me on a show one time to play the skeptic. They said, we want you to come on cause I know you'll be nice. We know that you'll be, we know you don't believe us but we know that you'll be respectful and nice. I said, of course I will. I like you guys. You guys are nice people. I will be that. And so we did like this two hour show and he said, before this, I want you to write some really good questions. I want you to write these questions out, you know, and like really try and stump us. You know, I put some effort into it and I came up with all these things. We had a great conversation. We talked about all this stuff. It was interesting. I get an email from the guys like a year later and they said, you're gonna laugh at this because, he said, well, I was at the Flat Earth conference and I go, of course you, you know, in my head I'm going, of course you were, right? There's a Flat Earth conference. And he goes, we won an award. And I said, what do you mean, you know, what do you mean we won an award? Actually, this was over text. He said, our conversation won best conversation at the Flat Earth award show. And I said, do I got a trophy for that? And he goes, well, I got a trophy for it, but I don't think you do. So like, I mean, look, it's a crazy ass world out there. All right. And I'm willing to entertain a lot of things. And I'm trying to get to the bottom of all this stuff. I'm not a Flat Earth guy. Okay, I'm just not. But I do understand that there is a way to control people by getting them into these camps and then discrediting that camp, you know, and getting them into here and then saying, and then they introduce contradictory information to go, you guys all look stupid. So it's a balancing act for us as people that are trying to get to the truth because we understand that we are going up against professional disinformation agents that are, that have a vested interest in keeping us off of the trail of a lot of things that they're actually involved in. So things like 9-11 and the whole vaccine stuff, they would prefer that we go away. And so I'm in this, you know, listen, I'm open. I try to keep myself open-minded, but as my friend, Kev Baker says, not so open-minded that my brain falls out of the back of my head, you know what I mean? So you got to kind of try and keep it within some layer of, I don't know, reality, especially in this field that we're in where everybody is trying to find something that they can say, you're a shill, you're controlled opposition, you're this, you're that. Look, man, I'm not any of those things. I'm not big enough to be a controlled opposition. I'm just a guy trying to figure out how it all works. And I don't even know that I have any expectation of figuring that all out, but that certainly is my goal, is to try and talk to people that know how it works a little bit better than me. Like in your case, you're automatically going to see the world from a different angle than me, simply because you're above the fray in a financial sense, where you no longer are sort of held captive by the day-to-day grind that a lot of us have to do to pay the bills and all this, you've made position where you can focus on other things where part of this trap that we're in is the trap of money, is the trap of us trying to constantly have to make enough money to survive, to do the things that we wanna do. If I didn't have that worry in my life and I could use that time to prioritize and do anything else, I feel like that would be so much further down this path and this journey. I mean, how has the money affected you in the sense? Is it, I mean, I understand it can be like golden handcuffs, but has it freed you up to, I would imagine it's freed you up to follow the things that you have genuine interest in and not having to bother with the stuff that bores you? It's really tricky and it's a whole mind thing in and of itself, you know, and I told you I've always been kind of a yogi. When I say I'm a yogi, I'm a Wim Hof yogi, I'm a Mickey Singer yogi, I'm a a cartoli yogi in the sense that like Wim Hof is famous for the breathing kind of thing and the ice bath thing, which I did, I built an ice bath in my backyard and I do breathing every day. But he's also, if you look into it, he also does the kind of physical yoga that's, but it's a philosophy. It's a philosophy that, and the person who best, I think most clearly articulates this is Michael Singer. But the interesting thing about Mickey is he's worth about $600 million and he started out as just this guy who is his PhD in economics in Florida, super smart guy. He was teaching classes there, sandals in a T-shirt, as you do if you're teaching in Gainesville. And he was going out in the forest and he meditated and he had this transcendent spiritual awakening kind of Kundalini experience and he followed it. He followed it his whole life. And his whole story is about this process of letting go and how this incredible wealth comes his way despite that. Now, if you really read between the lines, it's not like he was pushing this away either. He was moving in that direction simultaneously like he's doing all this. But the thing that you'll notice when you listen to him or you listen to like Eckhart Tolle, who was homeless, literally homeless for several years on a park bench. And then now he's written all these books and has made millions of dollars in Oprah and all the rest of this stuff. Listen to him talk about money. He says, my wife and I call it the money. Not like it's even our money. It's just, and he said, I'd love to buy stuff but I don't really, I don't buy anything. He goes, I occasionally like to shop. But you know, window shop. He says, but I never wind up buying anything, you know, it seems. And Mickey Singer is the same way. He's bought a bunch of land down where he lives there and has a little yoga studio and stuff like that. But not ostentatious, doesn't do interviews. And the reason is not because he's putting on a show. It's that there's nowhere to go. There's nothing to do. Ultimately, our spiritual connection is that there is this extended consciousness realm. That's my understanding of the data, of the near death experience data, of the reincarnation data, of the after death communication data. I keep saying data, because this is like science. There's a reality to that. There's a reality to the experience that people have when they have a near death experience. That experience, we all understand like, I'm really calm in terms, you can't take it with you, right, Charlie? Whatever you get, you have a nice house there. You can't take it with you. Well, think that through, really think that through. Well, if I can't take it with me, what can I take with me? And you get to this point that in some way, then we stumble for the words, we're here as some kind of soul journey. So as soon as you really internalize that, the money thing kind of takes on a whole different meaning. Now, for me and for a lot of other people, you have to get it before you can really do it. You know what I mean? You could talk that shit, but you know what, you're a man and you were raised in this culture that tells men, you're a provider, first and foremost. You are a provider, baby. You're a hunter. Go out there, kill it, skin it and bring it home. And that is deep inside of you. So it's hard for you to go on the yoga mat when you can't scrape together the money for the bus fare and say, that's okay, I'm gonna transcend that. As a Western man, it's kind of easier for you to go out and be a hunter-skinner, make the money and then get past that. Oh, it's funny, after the, after I went through this awakening with the real estate component and I felt like I was part of this machine that I didn't understand. And I wanted to understand the money component. That's what started me down the path. I started doing that. Simultaneously, what I did was on my 37th birthday, I signed myself up for a four-day transcendental meditation class in Las Vegas and went through that. And while I was in my guy that I was with who's walking me through that had, he was just, when you meet, the guy that's gonna teach you transcendental meditation is going to be the most chilled out dude you've ever met in your life, always. And that's what this guy was. He was just very calm and he had this, and he had like 300 clocks in this living room where we would do it and they were all tick, tick, tick. And it was very unusual. And I remember having this conversation with him and he was talking to me about how when you're in this meditative state, the energies, you know, you can, you feel like there's energy around you that can, you know, you can move this energy and this energy flows through you and all this stuff. And in my head, all I heard was I said, oh, it's like the force from Star Wars. And he said, well, did you know that George Lucas was a transcendental meditator? And I said, no, I did not. He said, the idea, the concept of the force in Star Wars could be potentially anchored in this TM practice. And I thought, holy shit. So I immediately started after my real estate experience, I started to feel very, I started to feel very dirty about the money. I lost two houses during that. I felt stupid for not, for being right in the middle of it and still not seeing it until it was too late. I felt very, very dumb for that. And I wanted to get, I wanted two things. I wanted to educate myself on money, how it's made, what it really is, how it works, how it flows through this system, where it pools, and I thought I knew this. I went to have a business degree from USC. I'm not ignorant to it or so I thought. And then you start to learn about how it works. So simultaneously I wanted to do two things. I wanted to learn about money and I wanted to infuse myself with some sort of deeper understanding of what the fuck I'm doing here. Because making money isn't my thing. I mean, just making money isn't going to be my thing. From that point on, I thought I'm not a shark. I'm not one of those guys that's like, fuck it, it's somebody else's problem. I'm here to make money. I wanted to make money the right way. And I wanted to do it in a way that I could live with myself. So I wanted to understand money and I wanted to understand myself. And that was kind of what I set out to try and do. Now, in both cases, what I didn't realize is that you're never at the finish line of both of those things. I mean, understanding yourself as an ongoing process and trying to understand money, just when you think you've got it all figured out, they go and pull some shit that you've never heard of before like quantitative easing, quantitative easing two, three, four, and they can create even more money out of thin air. So just when you think you've got it under control and your understanding of it, they changed the rules of the game with regard to the money creation and how that works. So I went through, I had a break. I had an emotional break after that. I got divorced. In the course of a couple of months, I lost my wife, my house, and my job, and my faith in humanity really after that. So I was trying to kind of figure out how this all works. And that's a big task, man. That's a big thing to try and bite off. And it all had to do, it all started me down that path because of me trying to understand money. Well, let me throw a curve ball in there. So you know, the TM guy, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. Yeah. Kind of a scammer. Probably a scammer. You know, I have a friend who does a show, but at the Gas Pump Rick Archer, he taught. He was in the TM movement for a long time. He was 20 year teacher, highest, highest level of the TM organization all over the world and stuff like that. He's a super great guy. And his show is fantastic in terms of it's, like it says, boot at the Gas Pump. All these people who are spiritually awakened are ordinary people. But yeah, man, he told everyone to be celibate and he was out screwing all these women, which we've kind of heard that whole thing before. Money, he was very, very into the money and grabbing the money and using the money. And this is a story that you'll, it's just repeated so often in the spiritual community. Yeah. And you mentioned that needing an intermediary. Now that, we know about that with religion, obviously. We talk about it with transcendental meditation. And it's somebody that's introduced you. So what's the new religion? It's, and who's the new priest? The doctors for COVID, right? We need that intermediary. We need somebody, you're not allowed to disseminate the information. You're not allowed to investigate this information. How dare you dig into, Ivermectin? No, no, no, no, no. This is only for doctors. We're going to allow the doctor to speak. We're going to allow the priest class to speak. They're the only ones that can translate what's coming from on high because your little brain is too small. You can't understand it. You can't possibly know what's going on. This guy Fauci though, he understands it. He's going to speak for you. That's why people are talking about COVID as being a cult or religion, the religion of COVID. It's operating like one. I totally see these parallels. Like you said, whenever you allow someone to be the intermediary, that step in between you and the information, you run the risk of potentially, not always, but potentially that person compromising the message or not giving you the right message at all or wanting to be in the middle to feel self-important. And there's all of these things that flow in there. So we're experiencing that, this like new priest class of doctors. I kind of agree with you, but I kind of think it stretches the metaphor a little bit too far because you're really onto something. I was just listening to a recent episode you did on macroaggressions and you talked about this quite convincingly and the point is inescapable in terms of that's what they're trying to do with science and they're trying to tell this medical science and they're trying to tell you you can't understand this, only we can understand it. The distinction I'd make is the information is what they're trying to, you're trying to disintermediate the information. You're trying to say, I can go directly to Google or DuckDuckGo or whatever and I can get the information and they can't really in a way stop that and they can do all the stuff that they're doing and they can also have unbelievable control of the media unlike this is something we should talk about I'll throw it on the fire and then we'll talk about it later. What COVID represents to me is how far down the path they are in one globalization and two control and those two can be put together, it's title of your book, the global control but they can also be broken apart is the fact that they were able to roll this out on a global level is quite a bit of evidence in terms of how far they are in a way that we didn't really anticipate because we kind of stick our heads in our little world here and go, this is how the US, no man, they made this thing happen globally immediately and the other thing is just the extent to which they've kind of figured out the control mechanism and how they can implement it but if I can wind that back the way that I kind of disagree with that a little bit I think information is different than experience and I think one of the really sad and really kind of worrisome things about the intermediary and spirituality is they're trying to put an intermediary in what we would probably think if we think it through is the most fundamental of human experiences and that is your connection to that source identity that you are. So when somebody jumps in and says, no, no, no, no, I'll make you feel really good here for a while, Charlie but ultimately you come back to me and I'll tell you what you can feel good and what you ought to feel ashamed about and here's my book and here's how it tells me all exactly why or here's my leader, here's Sun Young Moon and he's perfect and all the rest of it. That is I think fundamentally different than me standing in the way of the information and saying, Charlie, you're an idiot, you can't understand this science. You have a different experience with information and especially that's the, to me, that's the other side of this genie out of the bottle internet thing that they've created is a lot of us are woken up to the idea that, no, I could really figure that out on my own and I know where to go and get the information. So there's a lot of leaks in the boat on that one. Yeah, yeah, they've done a really masterful job of doing what what Goebbels talked about which was it's easy to bring the country to their knees just tell the country that they're being threatened and then blame the pacifists for opening society up to the potential for harm and then just let society sort those people out and that's kind of where we are right now because we've got this segment of society that says the vaccine is the only way that you're going to be safe. If you don't take the vaccine, we instinctively view you as a threat to the herd and we've got to get rid of you. You're gonna bring this whole herd down and we can't have that. So I can sort of like understand that from a deep rooted nature type of mentality of anything that's a threat to the herd, you know, you got to be careful of it because it could get us all wiped out but the herd is being lied to and I think a lot of people's opinion that they're not being told the true information that they're suppressing information. So the herd is doing what it does but the herd is getting bad info to base its movements off of. And so we wanna, I want to say, no, no, no, no, no, no. To the herd, you guys are getting, these people are lying to you. These people are flat out lying to you. And what I see, what I'm watching in response to that is that the herd is done listening to me. They have been told what they've been told and they are not interested in changing their minds about it. So I find myself in this weird spot where part of me wants to like get up and scream from the rooftops. And another part of me thinks I should probably really only, I should prioritize my energy and really only talk to the people that it actually has a chance of affecting. So I don't know if there's, I don't know which way is right to be honest. I don't know about that, Charlie. I kinda think that if there is a strength to America, it's that kind of crazy herd that you're talking about. Don't underestimate the herd. Cause a lot of times people read the herd one way and the herd is really kind of processing it a different way. Cause I try and stay out of the COVID science except for the COVID mask science. I've just honed in on that cause you can only understand one thing. And I'm just doing a show next week on this latest completely phony junk science from Yale in Stanford about this Bangladesh study that, oh, it's just incredible cause it's null result. It shows that masks don't work and they're really trumpeting it as saying the opposite of that. But the other thing I stumble across that does speak to your kind of point is, and this is just intuitive if you think about it, if you know anything about science, like everyone has to get vaccinated, right? What if you've had COVID? Like I know people personally who I highly suspect have had COVID, have had a, you know, serious part with COVID. Yeah. Wouldn't, how about their natural immunity now? How does that stack up versus the vaccine? Well, you know, they've actually done studies on that. And as you would expect, because as we've known all our life and as we've been told, the best immunity is the natural immunity. Right. Is your body building up that immunity? And the best science we have suggests that's gonna last a lot longer than any vaccine, any booster, any of the rest of this stuff is the natural immunity. So just, again, I'm not screaming this. I'm not trying to force someone to listen to any of this. You know, it's anyone's thing. But just isn't that a curious thing that why wouldn't that be part of the equation? It's like, well, if you've been vaccinated or of course, if you have COVID because then you're even more protected than you're allowed in, that's never part of the discussion, which reveals, again, the method. It's really not about that. What it's about is that we're in total agreement. What it's about is, do what the fuck we say, we're in control, don't question anything. And don't think for a minute that you have the ability to sort through any of this information slash science on your own. You don't buddy, that's why you gotta listen to us. Yeah, it's not about science. It's about compliance. It's about doing what we tell you. And so that has been my frustration with it. I'm not an epidemiologist. I'm not a virologist. I don't know these things, right? I can't take on that conversation with people to the level that some of the doctors can. But what I can do is I can recognize like you just mentioned that if we're having an honest conversation about things like this, natural immunity is on the table. People that have had, which age grade ranges are the most susceptible or this or that. Or there's nuanced conversation. It's not a blanket statement. And when it becomes it's a blanket statement, everybody must get it. Then you realize that it's not science. It's dogma or something. It's not, it's- It's compliance. I love that. It's not science. It's compliance. It's a belief in that the state has the right to tell you what to do. The state is always correct until they change what they said three months later and say something totally different. And so to me, I'm just saying, look, forget the science. Let's put the science off to the side. Just look at the government's reaction. You know, like, you know, hey average guy on the street, you know that the government basically hates your guts, right? They invent new ways to take your money through taxation. They never treat you well. They're constantly looking for new ways to take from you for them so that they can spend it frivolously and all this stuff. And you know that, and we all know that and we've experienced that throughout our lives, now all of a sudden that same group that has treated you so poorly your entire life now has taken an unbelievable interest in your personal health. All the science out of the way. Doesn't that make you a little bit suspicious? That's all of, you're like, that's where my conversation with people kind of starts. It's like, just look at their behavior. The most insane, think of the craziest person you know that always treats you poorly. Now sees you walking home, pulls up alongside and says, get in the car, I'll give you a ride home. And you go, I don't think so. You know, like that's kind of where I am with it. I'm not getting in the car with these people. I don't trust them. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good analogy. Okay, I would suggest final topic. Evil. And I wrote a book a couple of years ago, Why Evil Matters? And the premise of the book is that, you know, just like the biggest conspiracy to me is science and when I say science, what I'm really saying is whoever is behind the octopus, if you will, substitute the octopus for science is committed to this idea that you are meaningless, that you are a biological robot in a meaningless universe, because that's the only way the control thing really works. Or it certainly eases it a lot if your life is meaningless. Well, the extension of that, and that was the first book I wrote. It's called Why Science Is Wrong About Almost Everything. And it's like, if you can't get consciousness right, then you can't really get anything in science right. But the second thing is the why evil matters. I guess what I'm saying is what we really care about, I think at the end of the day is whether the octopus is fucking evil. Because as we've talked about in this conversation, the octopus, we might look at it as both, you know? Hey, the octopus is saving us from becoming North Korea. Hey, that's great. Make America great again. Woo-hoo, you know? You can't handle the truth. There's a reality to that. And is that the octopus? Or is it evil? And I think in that conversation, we realize how inept we are with even talking about evil. And when most people talk about evil where they immediately go is towards evil acts. Was this evil? Was this evil for this person to do that? And I kind of take the idea that to look at evil, look at the extended consciousness realm. Look at are there malevolent forces that are beyond this world that are somehow coming to play? If you believe in angels, do you believe in demons? If you believe in near-death experience, which again, the science is good. If you believe in reincarnation and you go to University of Virginia and they have the studies out the Yazoo, you kind of can't get away from the data, the data, the data. There is this extended realm. We've been told forever by every different wisdom tradition in existence that that extended realm has some dark elements to it. That's what I am interested in, in terms of understanding the octopus. Cause when people tell me the octopus wants money, I'm like, no man, that octopus don't eat money. It doesn't eat, it just spits it out. You know what I mean? That's not what it's about. There's something else. And I'm not saying it's complicated, but let's have that fucking discussion rather than all this kind of clutter that gets in the way. Well, I've done enough hallucinogens to understand that there is another world out there. And it's easy to be dismissive of that for people that haven't gone down that path. I mean, I know that there's some people that are deeply religious and they have these experiences and I'm not trying to discount that. I just know that from my standpoint, I have gone to places where I feel like I am in another dimension or some place else. So it's real and it's as real to me and I've dragged back my experiences from there and it's been beneficial to my life. I feel that there's a realness to that. I also recognize that because I have no control of what I see over on that other realm. So I'm at the mercy of whoever is populating that area. Are they on the up and up? I mean, we know about all of these stories of Alistair Crowley and Jack Parsons and all these guys getting together and doing these rituals and all this ritual magic. Is there something to that? Well, I don't know much about it because I've never participated in it, but I've read enough to know that there's a reality to that. So is there another dimension? Is there something else going out there besides what we can see with our eyes and hear and smell? Absolutely. Is that inhabited by good things and bad things? I mean, I think the answer is yes. So are they the ones that are controlling and manipulating the octopus? Like a puppet master with pulling the strings on this? A lot of people say that that is the case. I just don't know. I mean, I've had conversations with David. I keep talking about sitting next to Ted Heath and Ted Heath doing, giving him the up and down with his and that Ted Heath's eyeballs were completely black, no white in them at all. And he looked possessed. What the fuck do I do with that story? You know what I mean? I process that and I go, I know David. I believe David. I don't know why you would be lying to me. I've got to just say, I didn't see it. I wasn't there to see it, but I got to believe that he saw what he saw. So is there evil out there? Yes. How do we define it? That's a good question, man. Like you said, it's not as simple as just saying, that's good and that's bad. Well, that's subjective. There's grades to this, right? There is a gray area. Just to kind of give you the full skeptical, why evil matters treatment. And I always go back to this example and it always, yeah, I was very unsettling cause it is super unsettling. And it's this woman, Annika Lucas. And I really connected with Annika cause she's a yogi. And she's actually kind of made part of her healing, doing yoga for women in prison in New York. She goes into disease volunteer women classes and it's fantastic. She's built an incredible service in doing that. But Annika's real story is at six years old, she was sold into a satanic ritual abuse cult by her mother. And this is in Europe. And if you know the Dutro case, and I always say this, if you don't know the Dutro case, go look it up in Google and you'll see it reached the highest levels of European government. These guys want to go fuck these little kids, boys and girls. And that's all the eyes wide shut mansions and stuff like that. And it's real in the sense that they show the kids in cages, they have photos of the kids who died cause they arrested Dutro and they didn't let him out. And he wasn't able to go feed the little kids, little boys and girls that he had abducted for sexual abusing by his elite friends. And they died in these cages and it's really sad. And Annika was one of those little kids. And she was raped hundreds and hundreds of times, a six year old, sold by her money, sold by her mother. And it's interesting when I talk to her, I didn't bring, you know, she would not bring up the satanic thing. I go, satanic, what about the satanic ritual abuse thing? She goes, yes, that is what this is about. That is who these people are. Now I'm not a Christian, Charlie. So I process and I have a lot of concerns about the obvious mind control that is Christianity and the cult that it is. But I do understand the good and the bad. And the reason I always use that example is no matter how somebody wants a skate about Duncan Trussell, Damian Eccles isn't such a bad guy after all. And he wrote this book, let's have him on the podcast. When you talk about Annacaluchus, then people go, no, that's fucking evil. That is fucking evil to sell your daughter at six to a satanic ritual abuse cult. Now it involves that many people at that level and there's some of the highest people in office. I get what you're talking about now. Yeah, that is evil. And that is our pivot point from which we can start talking about everything else, whether that falls in the category. We've kind of got a good stake in the ground over here where we can say that's evil. That isn't about money. That isn't about power. It isn't even about sex. It's about something else. And we have to be willing to kind of go there without staring into the abyss. We have to be willing to walk up to the edge of that abyss and understand it and bring back that sensibility because that's what we wanna know about COVID. We wanna know if the guys behind it are evil because if they're just about a one world state, I can get over it. You know what? I can get over it. If they're about control and socialism and compliance, I can get over all of that. But if they're about evil, it's a different ball game. And you literally wrote the book on evil. I mean, you know that you recognize, what do you think? What do you think that these guys are after? Do you think they're evil? I just wanna open up that discussion because it isn't being had. And worse yet, you know, when we do have it, the default goes to these Christians. And I don't wanna totally bash the Christians. I was brought up Greek Orthodox. I understand that people have genuine spiritual experiences with something called Christ consciousness. I don't deny that one second. I don't know what that is. I don't know exactly what that means, but I don't wanna, you know, we're from a certain community that understands that the pedopope thing is real. I mean, that really happened. That really is happening. So that's the conversation I wanna have. It's kinda like, I love the analogy you said of, you're walking along the street and here's this guy who just has the worst reputation and has screwed over your family over the years and all your friends and all the rest of it. And he rolls up on you and he rolls down that window and says, hop in Charlie, let me give you a ride. You're like, oh dog, my mother told me about people like you. I am not getting in your car. And that's what we're doing with evil. We're saying, okay, we'll listen to the scientists who say, well, of course that's ridiculous. That doesn't exist. There's no such thing. You're a meaningless, you're a meaningless being. You're not a spiritual being. Say, okay, I can't listen to you. Who should I listen to? Well, here comes the, here comes the religious person who says, no, you're right. It is, here's what Satan is. Here's what it's about. And as a matter of fact, I'll tell you the whole story. And then once he gets his hooks into you, he says, now do what I say or you will burn in hell too. So it's moving that step, moving that step and saying, okay, we gotta find another way because this is the fundamental question. We have to find another way of approach it. That's what I'm about. Not like that I have any answer because I couldn't possibly have it but needs to be part of the conversation. Yeah, what a trip, man. We could, I mean, we could go down this path for a while. I think it's important for people to have that conversation about what we're experiencing now. Is it evil? Wow, what a, you know what? It never really crossed my mind. I just assume that they have an agenda. I know they have an agenda. I know they have a plan. I know that the people, I mean, I know that I wouldn't want to be a part of their plan and I wouldn't want to be hanging out with the World Economic Forum guys. Are they evil? I don't know. Do you think they see themselves as evil? Maybe not. Maybe they see themselves. You know, a lot of these people that are really dangerous, devious people see themselves as, hey, listen, man, I'm doing the things that need to be done to make this world work. You're getting bogged down in the minutiae of it, but if it wasn't for guys like me doing the necessary things that have to happen, you guys wouldn't be able to live the life that you live. I mean, there's this weird justification that I've heard people that do horrible shit try to try to spin, which is I'm taking out the trap. I'm doing the difficult things. Yeah, you think it's terrible. You wouldn't do it. I have to do it. This is the way it works. I can't rip my brain around that way of thinking, but I know that there are people out there that can find the justification in their behavior as under the guise of I'm doing the difficult work that needs to be done. Well, you know, and I almost think that the problem for you and I is we get that part of it and we understand the reality part of that because like you say, you know, you've been in the world that understands that to get things done, it isn't always easy, but the real interesting part of that question for me is, does that matter? Cause if we start taking this other metaphysical approach to asking about evil, I think it puts us in a different place. Like if you are somehow being influenced by something negative in your life, you might not be aware of it. And to the extent that the way you rationalize it and justify it, maybe sound legitimate to a lot of people, but it might on the other hand, not be quite that simple. And again, I think it helps looking at the extreme examples sometimes. It helps looking at Ted Bundy, who serial killer, but go listen to the Netflix true crime trash on the confessions of Ted Bundy. The guy interviewed him in the prison and he talks about this little kind of glitch that he had sexually when he was a little kid about the certain attraction and how that led to a certain influence, voice coming into his head and how that voice grew and grew and grew to the point where he didn't feel like he was in control. And is that Ted Bundy lying and making up stuff? Or is that fact repeated by so many other people? So at what point is he responsible? At what point is some other entity responsible? At what point are they mutually responsible? It's just a new way of looking at it, I think. Charlie, tell people what you're doing now. Tell people about macroaggressions, what you're up to there and what other stuff you're doing. I've released my third book, Hippocracy, Hippocracy, Surviving in a World of Cultural Double Standards that just came out last week. So that people can find that on Amazon as a paperback and as a Kindle. Okay, time out. Give us 60 seconds on what your thoughts are about that book, because I ran across it when I was looking at Amazon and I have to tell you, I haven't heard you do many interviews on that, you probably have, but I kind of double clutched like, how come I haven't heard about that? Because I heard about the demolition book. Of course, I heard about the first book, the octopus book. I heard about the demolition book, which you should touch on briefly. And then this third one, what's that about? Yeah, the third one. So the cover of it has Uncle Sam in a straight jacket in a mental institution, which I think is kind of a fitting symbology for where we are. And I would also suggest it's not limited to the United States, but this idea that we're living in a world of cultural double standards, where people will tell you, the society will tell you one thing that you should be doing. And then you find out you have to, well, it's a little bit more nuanced than that. I tackle the Woke Mob for sure, because they need it. I go after the mainstream media because I consider them to be co-conspirators in almost everything that's happening in our world. I tackle society in general. I definitely go after religion because if you're going to talk about hypocrites, you've got to talk about organized religion and the sort of way that they see the world. And I get, and I try to, it's, you know, you got to be a little bit delicate, I guess, in the sense that some people, you know, they take their religion very seriously and I understand that. But if you're not acknowledging all of the lies that are part of that, then you're not being honest with it. I get into COVID, of course. I get into the business world and that relationship that we have. And of course, I also talk about the wars, the wars that we start, the reasons that we're given for them, the hypocritical nature of how are, you know, the things that I first kind of start by explaining, we're all hypocrites in some level. And it's a disgusting trait. We say one thing. That's what I was going to ask you. To what extent is this just kind of a reflection? And are we different than we used to be? Are we different than other countries? Are we different culturally? How does that, that hypocritic? So what got me into the idea of me exposing my own hypocrisy was as the Edward Snowden news is breaking years ago and they're talking about the NSA, reading all of our emails and spying on us and tapping our phones and all of this surveillance state. And I'm going, this is terrible. This cannot stay. Of course I knew this was happening, but this is terrible. It's an awful thing. They shouldn't be doing that. While I'm doing that, while I'm having these thoughts, and this is fresh in my mind, I am also installing a baby monitor camera over my daughter's crib so that I can simultaneously watch what she's doing and monitor it and listen and do all these things that I'm complaining about the NSA doing. And I'm going, yeah, yeah, but I'm the dad and it's my job to make sure that she doesn't get hurt. And then I'm thinking, was that how they're justifying it too? I mean, are they thinking, are they saying, well, we're the parent, we're the government here, we're the dad in this equation and we need to make sure that you don't roll out of the crib or that somebody doesn't sneak in and snatch you or whatever. And so I had this sort of interesting internal battle with myself about, well, where is this line of where, how is my hypocrisy okay and my justification for it, but the government's isn't. And where is that line? And what I realized is, well, it's kind of a line that's blurry or it's written in pencil for some people. And I wanted to get into that and why that is important, why our relationship with the media matters and how they drive the narratives and how they create one version of society. And if you don't participate in that, then you get left behind. And of course the woke people, that's like club and seals though. I mean, they're so easy to take apart because they're cartoonish in the way they see the world. So I did the same thing like I did with the octopus, which was I brought in 480 footnotes in this one to document and show you where I found this insanity. And I had to do it in part because the things that I was writing about sounded like I was making them up. Like there's no way this could be real, that there's 56 different genders you can pick from on Facebook. Not only is it real, here's a list of all of them. And here, the House of Representatives recently banned all these words from being said in public or in inside session. When Congress is in session, you're no longer allowed to say, mother, father, brother, sister, brother-in-law, aunt, uncle, son, nephew, niece, all these things. So I wanted to not just complain about the hypocrites running this world, but document it, document their insanity and say, listen, here's where it is. Like I'm telling you that this is what they're saying, but here's the footnote, you can go check it out for yourself. I'm telling you that it is illegal to collect rainwater in Oregon and that they will send the police to your house to issue you a fine for that. And I'm showing you here that it is a $340 fine if your dog shits on the sidewalk in San Francisco, but if you do it, there's no law, it's fine. They won't fine you as a human being do it. So to point out all of this insanity and then tag it with footnotes and say, I'm not funny enough to come up with this stuff on my own. I couldn't have possibly made this stuff up on my own. This is real and this is where you can find it. And I'm not Alex Jones just ranting and raving about their turn in the Frog's Day. If I say they're turning the Frog's Day, I'm gonna show you the footnote where you can go find the study on that too. So that's what I've been doing lately. And the reason why you haven't heard much about it is because the book just went out a couple of days ago. And so I'm now starting that process of getting out there and talking about it. And I think people are going to laugh at the absurdity of it all while also simultaneously understanding in a very John Stuart-esque way the serious nature behind these stories and that we can laugh at them and have a good time and kind of shake our heads and go, wow, we're living in a crazy world. But if we don't also simultaneously recognize that it's real and that these people are actually doing these things and putting these steps in place, we may wake up one day and go, they built a digital prison around us and we didn't even stand up and say anything about it. So I wanted to have some fun with it. And the book writes itself really, it really does. When you're talking about hypocritical behavior and things that you see out there, I mean, the biggest problem I had was narrowing it down to 335 pages and not making this like an eight volume encyclopedia set of insanity. I can believe that because you should talk for just a quick minute about macroaggressions because I just started listening to the show and I'm amazed at the different topics that you cover. Like you had these guys on the Zeta generation guys. Generation Zen. Generation Zen guys talking about UFOs and I mean, they are way out there on the UFO thing. I mean, I'm totally with about 80% of what they're saying. So I'm totally into that topic but I was really impressed with the way that you were able to hold your own there. You know all about that stuff too. So where are you going with that show? I don't, I like, so with macroaggressions I do two shows a week. One of them is an interview, one of them is a monologue. And with the interview stuff, I wanna talk about it, I wanna talk about anything that, my criteria is this. I wanna talk to interesting people that know about interesting subjects really. That's it. And with UFOs, I don't have any particular, I don't have any special knowledge. I don't, I've never seen a UFO. I've never been. Yeah, but you knew a lot of stuff. You knew, you're right there with them. I'm into it. I like it. Like I'm fascinated by it. So I'm a viewer of that and I'm interested in it and I wanna understand it. And what I've also realized is that I don't have to be an experiencer to talk about it. I can talk about it without having that experience. It probably would be better if I did. I mean, I would definitely come at it from a different angle, but I'm not gonna pretend that I had an experience that I didn't have. That would be dishonest. So I just talk about, like those guys and I, we did a group podcast where I wound up with those guys and Bruce Fenton who I think you know Bruce. And I've recorded Bruce and the Bruce episode is gonna be coming out on macroaggressions in a couple of weeks. Phenomenal. I love, I love, you wanna talk about a synchronicity. I'm setting up the thing with Bruce via email. We get it all set. I'm really excited cause I've got Bruce and I had done a group show with him before. So I kind of knew him a little bit. And I go to the gym right after I get, and I mean right after I get done. Literally send the email, get it all set up. I walk down the street to where my gym is here. And I go to the gym and I get on a treadmill on the elliptical and on the TV, ancient aliens, the first person I see is Bruce Fenton. I go, oh, it's a sign. It's the universe telling me I got it. It's happening. So I just wanna talk about those things that are interesting. I've had directors on and writers on and guys that have podcasts and all of that stuff. And I just find it fascinating. And we're releasing, we're gonna release this episode as a swap cast. The reason why, you know, Mark Steves and I are talking and he was saying, you know, would you ever wanna have Alex on the show? I said, yes. Are you kidding me? Of course I wanna have Alex. That's, you're like the reason for the show. I don't know about, I don't know the things that you know. I couldn't possibly know that, but you know them. And I don't need to know them. I just need to know how to get a hold of you. You know what I mean? Bro, I totally, I think that's great. And we'll have to do this again. But as I told from the very beginning, I mean, you know, it's funny when you started this whole thing with the octopus book a few years ago. I mean, you were really ahead of the curve. So credit to you and credit to you for where you've moved it. You're really, really on the edge of doing it. I appreciate it. Look, I don't know how it all works. I am on a mission to try and figure it out. I don't know that I will ever get to a point where I'll have it all figured out, but my intention is to understand more about this. And my favorite quote, my octopus book has quotes from over 500 different people. And my favorite quote in the book is from so, so, okay, let's see. Executive director, I'm trying to get his title right. Executive director of paradigm research, Stephen Bassett. You know who he is? See, he's UFO guy. And in this, this quote really has nothing to do with UFOs at all. But he says, imagine if the world is like a big jigsaw puzzle, 10,000 pieces, right? And you come into this world and you're given this box. And in this box is all the pieces to this puzzle. And you go about your life with the idea that you're going to put all these, you're gonna dump out the pieces and you're gonna start putting them all together. And when you get those pieces put together, it will be a vision of the world as it really is. And so you set off about to do that. Everything is good, all good, fine. But there's a problem. The government that you are living under has made a decision for political reasons to interfere with your search for that. So it has taken some of the pieces out of your box and has thrown them away. But then it has also taken some of the pieces out of somebody else's box and thrown them in your box. And then you go about your life with this understanding or belief that you're gonna be able to put all these pieces together and it will be that picture. And he says, and it is an almost impossible situation, but it is an extremely effective for serving the state. And I realized that's it. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to put this puzzle together. And I'm hoping I've got the pieces from the same box and knowing that I probably don't. Hey man, it's been awesome. Our guest again has been Charlie Robinson. Check out Macro Aggressions. Check out his books. That new one sounds really good. On hypocrisy, hypocrisy. We can all get into that. So Charlie, like I say, we'll have to do it again sometime. Absolutely. This has been great. I'm putting it out on my show too. So we'll, so everyone, Alex, tell everyone where people can find you. Skeptico, Skeptico with a K, with two Ks. You'll find it and off. So I'll send you an edited copy. I'll try and edit it right away and send it to you. It'll be a little bit smoother with, we took some little breaks in there because we didn't know where we were gonna go with it. That'll be fine. That'll be great. I'm super excited. It's really nice to meet you.