 My name is Ingrid Samuel. I'm a historic environment director at the National Trust and my former life I was also head of heritage and architecture at the Department for Culture So I I'm rather worriedly in this room can confess to having been a bit of a man from the ministry Or perhaps a woman from the ministry at one point in time This session has been created to explore who has responsibility for heritage protection And it's a chance I hope for us on a really needy discussion as we've already learned to do this morning I think it'll follow on really nicely from Lloyd's talk and set us up for the fifth and final session about the future of heritage protection For me both sessions feel really relevant and important at a sort of key moment in time where significant changes are proposed to English heritage of potential Epochianic current perhaps Public finances remain very tight the impacts felt not as fine National agencies like English heritage, but of course local authorities as well And for that matter our private owners who for whom the impact of austerity is likely to be felt for years to come So what we're going to do about this is a question We'll explore in much more detail after lunch and we'll feed in the thoughts that you've already brought to us through your postcards But never leaving a lot will start to come out here as well on this session of responsibility But as you didn't make it before we start I just wanted to touch on the interesting debate we had last night which was specifically about the role of government in heritage None of our speakers really championed the idea of the government as a champion for heritage Which was actually the motion for the house And in fact most were pretty united in the belief that government's role was to set an appropriate legislative Fiscal and regulatory framework throw a bit of money around and then just to get out Creating the right environment For as one of the assignments that creating the right for other people from heritage and community groups to owners to go about their business It's down to the citizen to be a champion for their heritage and Lord reminded us of something really similar this morning When you talked about the heritage movement being driven by individual passions And he noted that government bottom of bandwagon relatively late and are about to get off What was not discussed I suppose about this framework for government was how we all feed into that And I guess that's something we can pick up today, and I hope we discuss And another thing that sort of came up was quite a series of mixed opinions about how well the government is doing in terms of their framework role Lloyd mentioned today the lack of a beneficial tax regime Last night the focus was much more on Development pressure and after Rocky start over there did seem to merge some sort of the consensus around Simon Jacobs initially rather contentious point that actually government has sort of got the plot on buildings Lloyd just something similar in one way today by when he noted that you know in the year of Celebration for the 1913 act he's heard no one suggests that it hasn't been or wasn't a good thing Although I take the point that was made earlier today that maybe that's a bit more about trophy buildings And there's a real challenge around inter inner cities being hollowed out The big concern for a lot of our panelists last night the thing being salami sliced by government and Developers is actually what Simon Jenkins called rural heritage but what I think he meant is our heritage of cultural and natural landscapes and green spaces urban peri urban and countryside and Lloyd mentioned again today. We can't lie down and let the countryside be paved over In the end panel seem to agree That what can and cannot be done to an Individually designated building or monument are actually the easy cases that battle has more or less been won According to the panel discuss But the big arguments today are about spaces between the buildings and also about good design It's not about change or no change development needs to happen But it's about how we fit new things into old spaces The battle line should not be drawn between all the new but rather good and bad development So that was the night that was it'll be interesting to see if our panel today share some of these perspectives about the role of government Where the challenges lie for us? And so we're going to go to them now Each speaker is going to have 15 minutes and then I'll throw the floor open to the now Familiar half hour session for question and comment And I'm going to introduce each speaker before their top because I think their background and their experience will provide valuable context for their perspectives and what they bring to their papers Our first speaker is Steven Trump. He is Heritage Protection Director at English Heritage And that's such is a perfect choice to kick off the session to explore the different contributions individuals Organizations should be making to protecting our heritage In his day job Steve is responsible for the coordination of what I might once have called English Heritage's National Heritage Protection Plan But I think something that's slowly coming to feel a bit more like it just might someday belong to a wider group of stakeholders In this current role, he's also responsible for much of English Heritage's important applied research program His last role was as EH's very knowledgeable head of National Rural and Environmental Advice Which I think is a key role actually in Heritage Protection terms is whatever you think about Simon Jenkins's green spaces argument We do know that rural heritage and by that I mean vernacular Farm buildings and archaeological monuments like industrial heritage remains an area of real significant challenge Steve is an archaeologist by training He has been an inspector of ancient monuments dealing with designation and case work And he's also worked at the British Museum and the Museum of London And he's going to talk about with great power comes great responsibility the changing role of the expert in protecting the nation's heritage Good morning, ladies and gentlemen Superhero theme to this morning With great power comes great responsibility Many of you I'm sure will recognize this as the manager that Stanley gave to his creation Spider-Man The more expensively educated amongst you will also know that some Voltaire Preach him to it, but because he wasn't able to use graphic artwork really didn't win the battle of hearts in mind In this session to consider responsibility how to protect I want to examine the particular Responsibility which is born by the expert and just reflected on the way this has changed over time in this continuing To change in the reason why to focus on expertise It's because I consider it to be the absolute keystone of the protection system that we operate today It's not a positive discipline. It's not a science our decisions on designation on consent and on investment are all based on judgments and while we consider the Systematize our approach to decision-making We can support our thinking with science and we can make our judgments far more transparent At the end of the day, it will still be the expert view that lies at the heart of nearly everything that we do And the idea of the interrelationship between power and responsibility Neatly encapsulates what's changed most about the role of the heritage expert over time I picked it from Stephen Bay Has that conference is already making clear Responsibility for managing the England's historic environment rests with many different actors amongst those bearing and sharing responsibility our land managers and property owners Developers and others in the private sector third sector organizations local communities universities Well, you know talk about HRC partnerships today, and of course government acting locally centrally and to its agency English-outage as an agency of government is there for me one small coal in a pretty Complex machine, and I must stress it's a cog that most certainly does not have a monopoly on expertise Nevertheless, I would suggest that English-outages does have something particularly pertinent to say in terms of the role of the expert for two main reasons Firstly because we're tasked by government Being its expert device on the historic environment and secondly because we still employ a significant number of heritage experts We've had the advantage of being able to work leisurely and with a sort of critical mass It's not always available to experts in other organizations As our conference is intended to look backwards as well as forwards I thought I'd start a very brief canter through the early days of the government heritage expert days when all of those Charged with exercising their expertise on behalf of the state could almost sort of be fitted into a single small and almost certainly smoke-filled room The attention of those experts was almost homie focused on the national collection of historic properties in state care Any new acquisitions to which were dictated pretty largely by their personal academic The expert view was paramount if occasionally thwarted by the ministry's political masters Accountability to the public was pretty well made in the concept. The emphasis was on authority in all senses of the word And this is tested by the Wonderful but well-permitting art-plated signage, which is all the ministry's properties signs which exude power rather than responsibility I'll get away without plugging the boss's book But it's important to say that such elitist attitudes were of course not Isolated to the world of Hatchish, but they didn't survive in our discipline for an alarmingly and surprisingly long time as Men from the ministry makes recounts in the late 1970s The Department of the Environment's Publicity Office had to go it alone when they wanted to produce a set of publicly accessible guidebooks because the then chief inspector refused to do as do-so fear as a catastrophic decline in academic standards and 30 characterizes the final days a heyday of the Department in the 1970s as supremely confident but not say arrogant in its abilities and achievements But clearly by the 60s 70s changes in the air and the ministry's stranglehold was sort of in decline ideas about what were comprised the heritage were changing rapidly Interest was developing in entire landscapes and townscapes rather nice-fated buildings and monuments behind railings The astonishing scale in historical source beginning to be appreciated and captured in exponentially great records and Increasing other players began to leave the agenda. So a great example of this was the way that industrial archaeology as a key aspect of our heritage Was pioneered not by the inspector but by the Royal Commission on the Council for British Archaeology Attitude to change to the ex-advisor began to change really quickly through the 1980s And I think much of this D.O. It's was owned British Heritage, which with admirable foresight was given a statutory duty to promote public enjoyment and not Public enjoyment and not really important for the time And here you can see the first English Heritage Commission and guest Getting ready to whip up a storm of public enjoyment That really is 1984 I'd also suggest that change was driven by the hugely increased emphasis on public service Which ran through all parts of government in the 80s and the 90s? Although John Major's assistance charter was pretty widely derided at the time it did herald a real change of attitude amongst public servants in terms of accountability and Change was also propelled by the growth of an increasingly vigorous and pacifist heritage sector themselves together with changing attitudes amongst heritage professionals In their own right. Within English Heritage this change professional and corporate attitude was marked by two key milestones One was the publication of Power of Place in 2000 in its emphasis on the historic holistic historic environment the need for sector-wide partnership The importance of heritage to communities and the validity of multiple narratives and the second was the public conservation principles eight years later which champions similar ideas But with an additional emphasis on the significance in transparency in decision making for speakers yesterday about that So that was my rapid retrospective. I want to turn now to where we are in the present day What is the role of the expert in today's heritage conservation system and how is it evolving? It's fair to say that English Heritage is thinking a lot about this at the moment Not least in the context of the major cuts that we've experienced cuts which have had to involve the loss of some of our staff and cuts the leading to the loss of activities Right across the sector not least in local government as Martin has reminded us yesterday This is undoubtedly a really serious challenge for us It's self-evident, but it's still worth spelling out that if any Organization is required to act as the government's expert advisor And it really does need to be able to access and command expertise And we're facing these challenge when the task of the expert advisor is becoming infinitely more difficult But it was in the golden days of the predecessors in the Ministry of Works In the intervening years ideas on what the heritage comprises Expanded enormously now embraces the everyday as well as the exceptional The ultra-modern as well as the ancient the intangible as well as the material despite At the same time what we know about our longer held areas of interest Has also increased exponentially in complexity and in debt We face an explosion of data and specialization The ability for any of us to achieve any sort of overview is increasingly a challenge The heritage is also more dramatic to recognize the everywhere to be the essence of place To the to be a business the rightful business of local communities as well as national organizations And to embrace the heritage of people who are underrepresented in our society and it's this this Universality in a concept of heritage that into it creates conflicts between the historic environment and a range of other interests On one hand as a sector we need to accommodate other environmental interests That's badges energy efficiency and on the other we are told we need to avoid impeding the gutturing flame of economic growth This poses real challenges for those who like the experts of English heritage or in local government Have to advise government on an increasingly kaleidoscopic fast-moving Contested and politically critical heritage landscape Their decision-making can influence investment projects worth millions Their decision-making can intervene in bitter local disputes such as a case for or against a wind farm or The preservation of what we consider to be a jam and the locals consider to be an arsenal Decisions are exposed to intense press scrutiny nowadays, and they're expected to stand up at public inquiry and even in court So in this challenging environment when our resources are under immense pressure Do you think sector needs to seriously focus on the issue of expertise? What do we want experts? What do we want of those experts if we think we need them? How should they operate should expertise come from the public or from the private sector and above all How do we ensure that the public trusts and values its Within English heritage we've got to make some modest headway in changing the way we nurture and deploy our expertise Although we do recognize that far more needs to be done first and foremost I think we we now recognize that while English-Hardish can expect to be experts in some things Cannot maintain expertise in everything in which it the sector and the government has an interest What's vital therefore is that our in-house efforts are part of an effective network that can draw on external advice Whether that comes from the public private or independent sectors it requires our staff to have the ability to effectively stimulate Source commission evaluate and use the research of others Our experts are also learning to work in a rapidly changing world It did delivering more quickly and more flexibly They're applying their skills to hold your areas of heritage on type-to-time scales It's perhaps no coincidence the increasing number of our younger professionals Are coming from the private sector and bringing with them skills of flexibility and adaptability Importantly, we're now deploying our activities within the framework provided by our constructive conservation philosophy Working ever more closely with industry and government and alert to the challenges of growth agenda For example, our experts have recently completed a project which assessed a large number of signal boxes ahead of there being decommissioned by Network Rail It was a proactive project working with Network Rail Transparent and it was cooperative and it was greatly valued by that Organization we're now using similar models to work with the Ministry of Defense and soon the homes of community community agency And this marks a major effort as Roger was saying yesterday to move our designation effort from the reactive to the student strategic Also in a chance to prepare Roger in advance. He mentioned this We try to make our expert decision-making more transparent and accountable So for example, we're using selection guides designed to make our thinking to open up our thinking to the public and professional scrutiny We're trying to ensure that our designation decisions are based on explanation rather than on the steep And our experts are also working much more closely With communities harnessing new technology to draw in their knowledge Understanding and enthusiasm a project on the looping patting industry Tips like this focus not focusing on a town little regarded for its heritage or the poorly Recorded industry you use new media such as Facebook to draw in the beauty and help them share their knowledge and enthusiasm We're also learning to build appreciation of hitherto underrepresented people places in the start passports Accepting that we have no particular expertise in these areas that we can help to enable and connect at those who do Our recent project for example underrepresented heritage has already led to two PhD studentships beginning to search previously underrepresented areas And we're using training Through our programs of advice guidance training and masterclasses on we're working hard to try and build capacity within the sector in order to enforce resilience in such times And it's worth stressing because our hardship in this conference where HRC we're working a lot more closely with the university Sector and with research councils. We funded a new course in Cambridge for example recently and have primed it and set it on its way Which fills a gap in the market and we have commenced a program of collaborative doctoral awards with HRC and others in this way We're taking a much more proactive role in growing and shaping the experts that we and others in the sector will need in the future and finally Have to mention the national health protection plan even though we're not allowed to say national heritage or protection anymore So refer to it as the plan It's not our plan. It's your plan Implicit in the plan is the issue of wiring up expertise from right across the sector to achieve the best conservation results possible We're delighted with an increasing number of bodies for working with us to do this The challenge of the plan is to share power as well as responsibility and if it works This is the result will be shared Okay Press officer at DCS and you can then is an important editor and architecture correspondent Which of course he has been and remains and come to life at the times But we know that Marx's influence and connection with the Bill of Heritage is felt far beyond realism there's detail in your Don't expect just to mention that he was one of the organizers of the hugest in destruction of the country house Second position of the DNA in 1974 followed by changing decay the future of our churches He was key amongst the group that found in save britain's heritage in 1975 and he remained as a representative president He was also found in the cross-sensory society the heritage alliance and friends of city churches Today we're going to hear speak about heritage protection once leaving now So the challenge I was also given is is who is responsible for the heritage and in my view The basic point is that it is the owners of the historic buildings And a lot has been said about government, but what we have found and say even Over the years that government may say one thing, but government departments may do something completely different and Obviously, this has been incredibly important. There's so many government departments have been shedding their buildings over the last two or three decades and it is Produced them really immense challenges and one of the first ones we came across one of the worst examples was when we we Came across the home home office, which obviously looks up in prisons and they had this rather splendid house in Leicestershire called stock and hall and beside it was a young offenders establishment and We were trying to work out why they were leaving this house, which was eminently saleable Just left that to rot. Well, when eventually we got on site and we we we met them and we had to say Meeting actually in Marshall Street And we said to them, you know, why can't you just sell the historic buildings? And they said because it means we have to move the pigsties So it's right What is this about pigsties? He said this well Is a prison farm and the pigsties will cost 900,000 pounds to remove And the man from the DOE said really that couldn't be more 300,000 pounds And I said well, we he said kid Marshall said well, we're going to get a cost to building you the best Find this new pigsties In Ural and we got the cost and it was 57,000 pounds But really brought us on to the fact that whatever parliament says whatever government say There is somehow this in deeper Belief, which seems to perhaps emanate from the treasury, but it is so many government departments That it is actually not just a waste of money, but really a sin To allow money to be spent on historic buildings and you should really help them To to be dismissed and you know, show that they are at the end of their useful life And regardless of the actual expense, you may then Roll forward in terms of permission extremely expensive and probably not very efficient new buildings But this has been our challenge and I once we went to Gibraltar to look at what's called the naval heritage Not so important, but of course very important that as well as the ministry and that we saw on Rosier Bay Where of course victory was brought in there were these delightful regency houses, which were officers houses Now they'd all be declared redundant For for for current use because although there was a need for officers housing They looked at the latest treasury regulations and it said that officers were not to live in houses Which had more than three steps up to the front door And Another regulation was that the car parking space should be not more than 10 yards away from the front door Now these things didn't quite meet the regulations So as a result a whole succession of these lovely houses were were sold off or given back to the Gibraltar government Who then said oh well, we can't have these historic buildings without any government to look after them So although they were in fine condition when they were handed over the Gibraltar government then held out for more funds So urgently to restore them But this led on to a same exhibition on the buildings of the Ministry of Defense And it was incredibly difficult to get information out of the Ministry of Defense They said, you know, no top secret. We can't tell you what our list of buildings are. No, we can't give you a list of sites We can't do this, etc Anyway, we put on our exhibition deserted bastions at the At the R.I.B. Heinz Gallery And then Lord Salisbury, who was The junior minister at the Ministry of Defense at that time took it to heart And he actually introduced a whole series of very responsible policies which were set out And the Ministry of Defense then had Policies for looking after their listed buildings for assessing the repairs needed then policies for redundancy procedures And it really seemed that a new era had opened. Indeed it did open At the Ministry of Defense, but at the same time we were doing a series of that Exhibition or reports rather on hospitals and The the health service proved to be, you know, one of the absolute Worst of this because they had spent great fortune Considerable amounts of money on looking after their estate while it was in use and particularly the mental hospitals, which were great big buildings on impressive sites south facing on hillsides Used by good architects and very impressive compositions in large landscape grounds They were immaculate maintain but as soon as the last patients or the last staff left They just abandoned them and so vandalism started and a whole series of Steps of decline Started taking place, but worse was that idea that they couldn't Perceive that the old building could have a use the only Value they could see was in selling off the grounds But actually of course some of these places have been well restored and the grounds have been the great key To their successful reuse as housing and one of the worst examples was x-fail I don't know some of you may have seen outside Outside x-fail and this is a really spectacular complex of buildings with a great sort of central tea caddy headquarters and then a radial plan and the The health service sold off plot by plot to developers which were all around and they put a covenant saying that the old building Could not be used for residential use because it might compete with the new plots And of course there was no other use for it Well, finally thanks to jocelyn stevens weighing in in spectacular fashion English heritage, I think put in you know a really good injection of funds 900,000 pounds And although this building in every slate had been stripped off the roof It was then returned when it was converted to residential use and has become a very smart and nice place to live But the extraordinary thing was that You know as a result of these battles with the major government We actually got an extremely important document Which is called guidance note for departments on the disposal of surplus historic buildings And it says all surplus historic buildings and particularly those which are vacant or any partially used Should be disposed of as quickly as possible Then it goes on to say maximization of receipts should not be the overriding aim in cases involving the disposal of historic buildings The aim should be to obtain the best return for the taxpayer That is consistent with government policies for the protection of historic buildings and areas And these policies are likely to limit opportunities for the realization of development value Now that was a really sensible policy It was put out by government, but I I hardly ever see it referred to and that we so often come against Come up against departments saying oh no, no, we've got to realize the best value We've got that that can only come with come with redevelopment But also the other thing it says that is that government departments should actually put their buildings on the market And a classic example to me of them not doing this is in Portsmouth Dockyard, which of course is a huge visitor attraction Next to it is this wonderful building dating from 1700 Which is the old Naval Academy and It's a red brick Renty building and it's been left empty and it's now starting to leak and it's getting into a serious Uh, uh state of, uh Industrial power and the navy it won't make up. It's mine. I've been trying to get in now. I'm going to get not not not let in and it's This business of government departments, you know needing constant pronging and reminding to actually do the duty Which has been set out before them But actually this needs to extend relative to all the sort of public sector owners of of uh, uh Historic buildings or with with historical states and I remember We one of our exhibitions at save our first one, right? It was called off the rails saving railway architecture And fortunately it was just as Peter Parker arrived at British Rail and anyway, he invited us and Simon Jenkins to spar with him as he put it anyway led to the establishment of the environment panel and I haven't been told by a very senior railwayman He said look Marcus what you've got to understand the railways have three priorities First is the track Second the revenue stock and only third the buildings and we're a public sector organization There will never be any money to be spent on the historic buildings. So forget it Uh, I thought but if you have all these really shabby decrepit looking stations, it might put some people off ever coming up and we But going by rail Anyway, Simon Jenkins with Peter Parker set up the railway heritage trust And from a modest beginning of one million pounds a year And I was one of the first directors and still are We we went on to spend uh 25 million in the first 21 years And it was really a very useful model because it was kind of top up fund for all the different railway departments and areas And regions so that if they had a listed building and it seemed to cost that much more to repair They could come to us and our grants were were actually a fund provided by network rail But they would come to us and we could top up their budgets but more than that we could actually go out and go to whatever town or city or Area of their realm and we could say no, please come English heritage. Please come development fund Please come other local people are involved and we would put in 20 percent and we would get five other matching 20 percent We'd all go out to build quite a big pot which may make it possible to repair these different These historic buildings which were formerly said to be too expensive to repair. I remember one stage I was a Who was standing on Durham station and it was leaking and it was looking quite desperate And nobody could work out what to do. So I said, well, why don't we just do one section? We'll start at one end of doing a platform Camry and if it looks good, then we'll decide what to do next Well, no, we would be to do that They were all so pleased to see it all painted out and the passion is like it and everything So the whole thing got done and I think this kind of uh Approach needs to be rolled out across the public sector and of course Another example is local authorities that local authorities are obviously suffering tremendous cutbacks But they are very important custodians of historic buildings There are their own historic buildings Which of course the town halls and on the one hand you have examples Like Birkenhead and Oldham where they really find town halls are virtually empty or have been empty for some considerable time And uh, it's a really desperate situation But on the other side of the Penn Isles in uh, in Kirkley There's an absolutely wonderful example just through having one good officer who wants to get the town halls there He had four town halls in Kirkley. It's Duesbury. Anyway, four of them and uh, when I read it up in the times He explained that, you know in every week, uh, uh, they were getting things happening in each town halls It wasn't just for the councillors to meet He'd really put them at the heart of the community to explain that the rooms like this in every town hall, you know It could be used, you know for all sorts of societies events, uh classes and uh Equally the town hall could be used in in weddings and again This is an area which is crucial and of course the other Great thing which has happened with local authorities is that they have been the sabians of many great houses Aston Ball in Birmingham is the first of that's most famous but that Then that was followed by by Woolerton in in Norwich and also Temple Newsom Temple Newsom is a Museum of you know national quality But it is left with not a single curator and the last retired curator has to come back Two days a week just to do the sort of minimal curatorial job and eat and hold another one Why it's beautiful house in Outside Manchester when I went there earlier this year The main front which you see you know all the books still got the great dome and the columns and looks back classic We go around the back And one wing is completely boarded up since he was burnt out by a by a squatter Who was up in living above the golf club apparently in one wing and the other wing Which was the restaurant is all shut up But then go to Lidgetra goes and that one person one really imagine the lady I've got that whole house going in a phenomenal way and you know Get a few people like that and you know one really energetic imaginative person can get great things going at that local authority level But two minutes right So another example of course is schools And there are great many schools and a classic example was Hampshire County council which had its own arcade department. They restored wonderfully Many schools. They've got exciting new buildings. They put on new editions And so they show, you know how schools can be looked after in a really imaginative way and adapted, you know For modern purposes, but you know so many schools Equally are suffering especially if we find in the Polaroid villages in Nottinghamshire Where they are the main landmark often the only landmark and when when that goes Or especially when the money is made available For a new New school Now the old school is suddenly demolished when it could have another another use well And we'll do it one in there, but uh churches and uh private houses We can discuss that in the next half hour. Thank you Thank you very much Matt Marcus. So now we're moving on to um, Vicky Martin Vicky's the two executive of the Heartland Trust since 2011 Heartland which was part of the Polish mining world heritage site Is a project that's seen of the formal mining site and pool transformed into a new cultural and recreational landscape based on Polish modern history It's a 35 million pound content Which this year won first place in the best planning for an actual and built heritage category at the Royal Town Planning Institute award. So congratulations for that Prior to Heartland's Vicky, Vicky had great experience launching other heritage visitor attractions including Wilburton Hall and Nardin The steam railway next three gardens In Henshire He also formed a director of wonder at Cattle and Stainborough Park Heritage Trust in Yorkshire And her newly named paper is called movers shakers and collaborators Insights from an operator Okay, and first of all, I'd like to say I'm delighted to have been invited here to speak at this important event At first I was a little bemused as to what I could offer the debate particularly Since I've been programmed alongside some real hand weights of the heritage sector Um, I'm not heritage expert But as an operator, um, I have been involved with a number of major restoration projects And I hope that by sharing the stories of two of these, um, I can provide some insights to feed the discussions Okay, um, I've been asked to consider the following questions in my presentation Who is responsibility for protecting our heritage should be impetus for protecting our heritage ultimately come from people that will be imposed by government What is the role of leading voluntary bodies communities and private owners and heritage protection? And I've thought it would be interesting to consider the roles of different stakeholder groups in protecting our heritage using major restoration projects primarily heartlands and wentworth as case studies And both of these are inspiration projects because of their scale and ambition and what's actually been achieved on the ground by telling their stories um The initial drivers what's been achieved and importantly how I hope to inform the discussions about the roles of different stakeholder groups like play in the future So we'll start with heartlands Um, and heartlands has already been mentioned as a 35 million pound regeneration project in pool it was actually led by long calmer council And the idea was to transform a derelict 19 acre industrial site in pool into a landmark destination for visitors And a thriving community hub for local residents The area had been dragged down Following the collapse of mining and is one of the poorest communities in the uk with multiple indices of deprivation Over the years the site been subjected to vandalism and suffered a number of arson attacks The project is a mixed use development centered around the restoration of robinson shaft in mine, which is a grade two star complex and the creation of new buildings to provide Community facilities together with commercial and residential units The site was developed really as a catalyst for wider regeneration and not just a week as a restoration project in itself and private sector developers have already started construction Of 140 homes on a site adjacent site to the north of the site A plot to the north of the site. There's also a planning application in for two further developments to the west and south So what we've done over the last couple of years is transform an industrial wasteland Into what we now position as a cultural playground And this is a picture that was taken at a festival that we held this year Called Kernow Fest where we celebrated the best of Cornish culture And as you can see it's a thriving site now It's very well visited We launched in april 2012. It was launched by the heartland's trust Which is a social enterprise that was set up to operate the site once it had been completed And we've welcomed over 400 000 visitors Since we opened in april 2012 So the level of community engagement in this project has been phenomenal And really surpassed expectations We were actually designed as a gateway to the Cornish mine world heritage And i'll talk a little bit more about that later on Okay, what we've done is essentially give the historic mine buildings a new lease of life We've brought them back. We've given them a new use So the historic buildings Now house state-of-the-art world heritage exhibitions We tell the story of Cornish mining in a number of ways And we also use the site as a gateway to signpost other attractions within the wider Cornish mine world heritage landscape We've converted the former carpenter's workshop in Fort into the red river cafe And this has been Very well received by the visitors We've Taken great care to retain the original character of the building So the original collections of machinery That were found in the building have been left in situ And the visitors are able to enjoy a pasty literally sitting next to a circular saw It certainly takes themed restaurants to a new extreme It's been very well received We've even done things like The insulation has been put on the outside of the building rather than in the inside So that you can retain the original shed-like sort of feel of the structure as you walk in We also tell the story of Cornish mining not just through the collection of mine buildings And the artifacts on site but also through the diaspora gardens that have been created And these are a series of gardens which were themed on Countries that the Cornish miners went these are the countries where the Cornish miners took their expertise Where they settled These are the countries where they brought back seed Which then populated the gardens of the great houses that were built with the prophets of mining So there's a really nice story there So we tell the story of Cornish mining through the buildings through the collections and we stay through the plants As part of the project We wanted to provide community facilities and we have fabulous Chai and bobble which is house of the people in Cornish, which has been created as a massive hall And we also got a number of smaller meeting rooms These have been done to a very high spec and also served the corporate market And we're doing extremely well in terms of conferencing That's providing an important revenue stream for us now that we're open There's also a number of live working units on site. We've got 15 Workshops which are available to creatives designer makers And artists and we also have 19 apartments Again, these provide revenue streams for the site to underpin the sustainability of the free aspects And and for the little visitors we have the biggest free adventure playground in Cornwall If not the south west and this was themed on the mining heritage of the site. So again, we've tried to keep everything as close to the Core subject of the site as possible. The playground was designed with the help of children So playground was for children, but also designed by children And it was local children from poor academy that actually helped design this As has been mentioned Partners has won numerous awards for design planning excellence and sustainability And we've had quite a good run this year as you can see So how did we make this happen? Well, it didn't happen overnight There was actually a 15 year gestation period And it was very much driven by the local community. So I think partners really shows What can be achieved when you've got The desire by the local community to actually want to effect change There were originally three working groups that were all working Within the area looking at different aspects. So there was a Robinson's working group Which was made up of carrier district council both officers and elected members also mining experts and their core interest was Was what to do with the mine and the former mine buildings There was also a regeneration group for the parish and they're represented from the parish district council's business people and also community organizations And there was an open space group as well. And this is parish council led With public community organizations involved and they were looking at the lack of open space and play equipment The one common denominator between these three groups was a local councillor And he has since become the chairman of the heartland's trust and has been sort of involved with this Right through right through from the beginning And so in 2002 strength three was quite a critical point because these three working groups merged and And it became possible to develop sort of a single vision for the site and I listed here some of the critical milestones in terms of heartland's development And I think that the biggest single critical milestone was really in 2005 when big lottery launched the living landmarks program and this was sort of an enormous part of gold, which was Available there were four projects funded nationally 350 applications. So that just goes to show the level of interest in this scheme Heartland's was one of the four winners and it really enabled the dream to become real and was Yeah, the the biggest single sort of milestone really in terms of the development Another critical milestone was 2006 And it was at that point that select mining districts in Cornwall and Devon were inscribed as a world heritage site It's actually the largest world heritage site in the UK It's not terribly well known because it's one of the more recent ones, but it spans 20 000 hectares across Devon and Cornwall And By 2007 the big lottery fund award Was made. This was for 22.3 million pounds And with a lot like that it really gives an opportunity to transform the community Once you've got one piece of the funding jigsaw in place It then becomes easier to build on that and pull together the funding package and Homes and Communities Agency came aboard mainly providing the land but to take the value of seven million pounds formal council three million and because it's an area of deprivation We were eligible to get European convergence funding through ERDF and there was 2.8 million So the total part development part became 35 million The next couple of years there was detailed design development and enabling works And then a couple of year construction period And what my castle and gardens is the second one that I wanted to look at This is a 600 acre grade one listed landscape in Barnsley It's got 26 listed buildings monuments and folleys three national plant collections In total 20 million pounds has been raised by the wetland castle trust since 2005 And this has been spent creating new visitor facilities and also restoring monuments and the landscape This is the long barn and it shows you here some before and after pictures This is the hub of the visitor facilities where you've got the cafe shop admissions point There's also facilities for conferencing again to generate revenue to support the sustainability of the site Stainborough Castle is a remanted folly and you can see the four and a half days there Cricket in temple grade two star gun room grade two star Rotunda This was restored in a couple of different phases And finally the conservatory This is being restored as we speak and should be finalized next month should be finished next month Where it'll be relaunched the conservatory really rose to fame And won the heart of the nation bbc tv program restoration where it became where it came third in the very first series It took another sort of eight years 12 eight nine years to actually pull the funding package together Certainly it won the hearts of local people and enjoys tremendous community support So how did that one happen? Well, that was a 30 year gestation period and that one started in sort of the mid 70s And then we're movies and shakers lobby within the heritage arena Which highlighted went by as an endangered site of national importance And it was first highlighted in the destruction of the country house exhibition at the vna Which we've already heard about through the save britain's heritage campaign and also within the heritage arena People like the Georgian group in the garden history society English heritage joined the lobby in the 80s And it wasn't until the early 90s that the landowner farm sleep Metropolitan council recognized the need to restore the gardens and primarily this was a desire to transfer liability It was initial highly ambitious plans were knocked back in the early 90s Later on there was we all sort of It became a key element within the remaking barn sleep regeneration strategy It is various regional and national agents or pushed for a workable solution And in 2002 the work where we're passing on the same park heritage trust was formed This was very much under the advice of the hlf and they actually funded the project director post Who then developed the successful bid for phase one of the restoration? And it was at this point with the formation of the trust that the ownership buildings and farms were transferred to the trust In 2004 the Burma-Wabba family donated the wider historic park and this then Reunited the house and the park and created a more viable project for a fledgling trust Phase one 16 million funding partners main one heritage lottery fund Also in the heritage of honest accounts of Yorkshire forward with european money and death in natural england Because of the landscape sufferings of forest etc In 2007 the project opened as a visitor attraction There was then phase two which is currently underway and funded by again hlf erdf country houses foundation and This is what all revolves around the conservatory the restoration of the community to help you next month A couple of mini projects as well They've been funded along the way In terms of conclusions and the conclusions i came to do this is that They're to make these things happen on the ground There's always movers and shakers and these tend to be the catalysts and they're the ones with the ambition the vision They're the drivers of change and these movers and shakers can either come from the local community Which is very much the case of big of the Partners project which was very much driven by the local community or could come from the heritage communities such as Which is the case of wentworth? But it's not until everybody starts working together that actually In collaborating that comes the success And and what i've also found is that local communities need the expertise of experts And also local government And one thing that has helped us In the past has been a joined up approach to funding Certainly with wentworth It was a lot easier to pull together the funding packages because a lot of the funders were actually talking to each other And they'd actually agree what the priorities were for that region Which made it possible to actually achieve what's been achieved on the ground And the impact of the lottery i can't underestimate I want to estimate the impact of the lottery in terms of the power and communities on the ground All the stuff it has become possible to make these dreams become real and It's yeah, absolutely transformed the the environment that we're working in And i think just to conclude we've all got a role to play and we all share a collective responsibility Thank you very much for being here and we welcome to our last speaker today or at the recession out of town Once an academic at the University of Edinburgh, Alice has worked for the past 13 years As a very experienced archaeological investigator at the world commission on the ancient and historical monuments of Scotland His role there has given him a real opportunity to survey, interpret, research and record Archaeological sites and landscapes across the length and breadth of Scotland His right to experience however goes far beyond his own in-depth understanding of Scotland's historic environment He's a big believer in the importance of sharing his understanding with others And Alex has long recognised the value of connecting with people as a key way to grow their love and support heritage And that's the thing for his paper today, which is entitled sharing nicely How we approach a knowledge based understanding of heritage to underpin our potential responsibilities Thank you very much. Thank you. Can everyone hear me at the back? And I won't keep you long because I know we're getting towards lunchtime Now why me? Why did you choose me? I'm a Brummy working in Scotland for the past 20 years What can I bring to your table? Well, I hope I'll bring some A slightly different insight from north of the border, but nevertheless one that I hope I can share with you and we can exchange experiences So for the next 15 minutes, I'm going to illustrate how state institutions, third sector organisations, voluntary bodies, groups and individuals All play a role in the responsibility for the protection of heritage So everyone and no one have responsibility for the protection of our heritage, but it's about choice So what I'm going to do is I'm going to look at a number of examples of protective measures that have been undertaken over the past few years I want to also consider how state institutions can empower people through and you'll pardon my use of language here knowledge exchange I think that is crucial exchange sharing as well And hence, we can then develop new models of shared responsibilities In order to understand my position, I think you should know a little bit about me As Ingrid said, I'm an archaeological investigator with the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical We are a non-departmental public body. That is important and I'll come back to it later We were originally crown servants and we are now public servants Over my past 13 years, I've surveyed, recorded, interpreted and researched extensive tracks of the Scottish landscape Everything from stone circles to ruined file buildings and everything in between The work's fascinating. The range of archaeological landscapes and monuments is world-class and that is undoubted But since I started my job I've gone from working with a small team of experts And I do class myself as an expert But that's only because I got a doctorate in front of my name and a bit of graffiti after it But what we've done since then over the 13 years is we have shifted our position And we've gone from being small and insular and we've begun to work in partnership with other heritage organizations And with people with an interest in the historic landscapes of Scotland This experience has allowed me to see how different people and bodies choose particular roles and responsibility for the protection of heritage. So I see protection of heritage in three general forms and I am generalizing so you can pick me up a little later Firstly hard protection that consists of fences walls and barriers Secondly legal protection within which states develop schedules lists protective designations A third level of protection, which I think is the thing I want to focus on Is through capturing knowledge about past how we create maintain and share that knowledge So the first form of protection of hard barriers Is one which humans have been using for thousands of years We know this the concept is based on building a physical barrier that can be both symbolic and practical And prevent people from getting in getting out. It just stops the flow Changes the flow it shifts things And this can be exemplified by defences around hill forts various imposing walls down around the world This great one of course that Richard Hingley here knows all about and most of us do as well And it's symbolic as much as physical These physical barriers over time become protected by the positioning fences around physical defences railings and we put other measures to prevent people and livestock from damaging them and right so these protective measures Can ensure the preservation of the monument, but at the same time can restrict access to it It is this tension between protection and access that lies at the heart of our involvement in heritage Protective measures have now become advanced. So although they place a protective barrier around an object The barrier is permeable opaque in this case. This is exemplified here, buddy What you could call incarceration of a Pictish symbol stone within a glass house It's a shame Pictish symbol stone don't throw stones The glass prevents further damage the fragile features and at the same time allows people to see the intricately carved stones But is this good enough? Secondly Legal protection over the past 130 years or so has been drawn up and passed through parliament and with the aim And with the aim of Primarily enabling ministers and their agents to protect ancient monuments landscapes buildings gardens and design landscapes And most recently for us in scotland historic sea wrecks In scotland, we now have legislation for historic marine protected areas, which is designed to protect underwater cultural heritage This was introduced as part of the marines scotland act as recently as 2010 under this and under this latest law A newly discovered 17th century wreck and the coastal waters off sutherland has just been protected Which is a great thing A really great thing and all of a sudden a new piece of legislation This is quite a new thing and may be a difference between England and scotland This act in scotland deals with the issues specific to the underwater environment Which is subject to particular pressures from development aquaculture and marine exploitation So we are addressing this head-on So that's my second approach to lead to protection third The one I want to focus on the most is the protection of the knowledge and understanding of heritage And what places or objects mean to people That is one of the most exciting and challenging but ultimately rewarding and resilient methods to protect our heritage Notice I didn't use the word sustainable I'm using resilient here This approach is tied up in the concept of shared responsibility that is informed by different people Some of who provide information others a few curate that information and those that share enable and empower others to appreciate archaeology architecture heritage you make it This is not a new concept but one which can be exemplified by some bloke Herodotus His writing in his history of Herodotus translated back by Rawlinson in 1996 brilliant piece of work Starts with the line And I won't say it in English These are the researchers of Herodotus Which he publishes in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what may have done Now notwithstanding literary criticism of the nature of his writing Herodotus has clearly stated that by writing something down And importantly making it publicly accessible it can contribute to our understanding of the past This is a crucial and sometimes forgotten part of our responsibility towards heritage protection Today knowledge exchange can form a collective protective approach And it's one that's based around knowledge information storage recollections And most importantly the sharing of that knowledge I will use a number of examples to demonstrate how vital knowledge exchange Is in recognizing heritage protection responsibilities These examples demonstrate the impact of working within a knowledge exchange network Which focuses on heritage Great so three examples of knowledge sharing Earlier I mentioned that I thought protection of heritage had to increase focus on improving and sharing knowledge and our understanding of the past So how do we achieve this? Well, we're already doing many many things and we've already heard things that Nikki has exemplified this morning to Stephen as well And others But I do think that we need to increase support for our local groups and national organizations and societies Because they are the ones that form the backbone of our heritage sector And are part of the connected community that makes up the many different strands of heritage interests These groups are full of fascinating knowledgeable enthusiastic people that are passionate about heritage I'm talking about you lot and all the people out there that we get the chance to work with as well And it is this passion that delivers impact far beyond their job our job descriptions So here are the examples of knowledge exchange work that empowers people to share responsibility of heritage knowledge The first really shifted my view of responsibility And also of who I am and where I fit within the heritage sector So the discover butte landscape partnership scheme was a community driven project run by the community They were responsible for the project and they asked us at the Royal Commission A national body of survey and recording to come and help them Butte lies just off to the west of Glasgow beautiful island And from 2009 to 2012 the island was the focus of a heritage lottery fund landscape partnership scheme It only cost 2.8 million quid of everyone going down and doing a lottery scratching 2.8 million quid it involved over 3,000 volunteer days And we were asked By the people of the island to undertake a Resurvey of the archaeological landscape of the whole island Which we did With locals and visitors So we spent 13 weeks together over two years and formed a survey team of our camp staff Locals and anyone who wanted to come and join us Over the course of the survey the locals led us to sites that we had records of in our national monuments database We call it can more now And so we had records of some site and they took us to new sites as well Collectively we discussed age form function condition whilst we were there on site And we formed a knowledge exchange partnership model Everyone in the team was a valued member As a result of the work Butte now has one of the most up-to-date and enhanced sites and monuments record Which is maintained by us who our online database can Over a thousand site records were enhanced and improved and up-to-date And we that was through partially seven over 700 site visits as well 10 13 weeks on the island These records of the sites were created and updated by all team members So they can now see their contributions online in the national database But this is only part of the work the point is that through this joint working approach The responsibility for the checking and creating of heritage knowledge was a shared process based on local knowledge Those people we worked with and national expertise and it was that mix together that worked so well So what I hear you say well for starters through workshops requested by the islands over course of the project They now know an awful lot more about the planning system in scotland How to create sites in a local and national historic environment records, which gives them status in the planning system They're also both failure the workings of a national monuments database and how they can contribute to it But more importantly the people who participated in the work got to see the landscape of their island in a different light Through the eyes of others and they shared knowledge and experiences based on the island's physical heritage remains They now have a strong set of skills to understand recognize what they value as heritage They know who to consult when it comes to development control and they're actively researching their heritage So to conclude that example because the recognition recording and understanding of the island's archaeology was undertaken through a partnership approach With local people at its core this has led to a collective responsibility being developed Which empowers the islanders and others in all matters that affect their heritage The caveat of course is that it does take about 50 percent more work time working with new people That's very rewarding, but it should be remembered 50 percent. Okay add that to your budgets My paper time To me, second example is an AHRC funded, there we go, hit the switch, AHRC funded research project that I've been recently involved with You may not have heard of Mr. Seales Garden But it was an AHRC funded connected communities pilot demonstrator project The aims of the project included embedding research skills in communities by focusing on local food heritage in Liverpool We worked with local people to research and understand local food systems in the past Currently and what that could do to inform future directions The project involved oral historians, archivists, sociologists, archaeologists, designers, coders, creative artists The results ranged from skill sharing to outputs such as workshops, recipes, a geo-affixed app that only works in Liverpool And a google mashup, map mashup The main impact however was the knowledge exchange between professional researchers and local researchers It was this contribution of local and national perspectives That appears to have led to impact beyond the life of the project and out with the project design For example, I know a Wallasey allotment keeper who's now sourced a local tomato that they hadn't known for ages That was grown in the area, Cavendish perfection was very popular She's successfully now sourced the seeds, grown it Tasted it and now people around the world saying send me some seeds of the old Cavendish perfection because we love it so much So finally, to finish this section about examples About creating and empowering, I want to bring you up to the third example Which is as you know about what's happening north of the border Right now at the bottom here, the Royal Commission and the Historic Scotland We are in the process of transition to merge to form a new heritage body of Scotland Which will, I stress, be a non-departmental public body So it will be at arm's length from government So this presents opportunities for new partnerships to be formed and new heritage frameworks and networks to be developed As part of this, we are developing a research programme that considers how people have interacted with a national river system In the past, how they do today and how they could in the future And a lot of the things that we're planning on doing fit very nicely about transformative knowledge generation of its core And it's designed to use evidence and knowledge about the past to inform and transform our current and future practices And it fits quite well with the Care for the Future core as well So to conclude I believe that there must be shared, sometimes contested, but always an open and accessible knowledge base Of the core of understanding heritage is Its protection and the range of responsibilities towards that heritage So this is about creating the archive, the inventory The flip side of this, of course, is that shared responsibility of protection is also shared responsibility of loss And just as we rejoice in the success of understanding something, then saving and protecting it We must collectively grieve in the shared loss of heritage So the challenge is to develop the negotiating skills that enable us to consider current stakeholders opinions And by using our past experiences as experts to propose potential future scenarios And then undertake collective knowledge-based protective measures But the real challenge is for us in the profession to have the ability to be flexible, considerate and prepare to reconsider our positions Regularly, we've done well recently in the part, in parts of the heritage sector Is changing and our roles are changing from gatekeeper to enabler A head lies the challenge for us in the sector to enable the state to recognise how important heritage really is How it can provide a backdrop for social change for the good and how through appropriate funding We can use heritage knowledge exchange as a fulcrum for new approaches to responsibility To do this, we must continue to improve our access to archives from national bodies to local societies We need to grow our social networks through digital and analogue processes That combine short long-term partners with newfound colleagues And finally, and it is finally, national governments need to invest in social processes that enable knowledge exchange between us all For we are all experts and amateurs in one field or another And I remember something that Paul mentioned yesterday about do these experts want to become facilitators? Well, I've gone through that transition and I'm still here. I'm still standing It is and it's through that through that social approach that creates a much stronger resilient form of protection And one that strengthens social bonds, builds partnerships and genders learning relationships And binds people from different places to contribute to the understanding, sharing and caring Of the remains of the past for the future Late, and we don't want to run too far too much, so I'm not going to do much in the way of summing up What came out of those four very, very interesting papers that we've heard today I think we've heard a range of perspectives And there wasn't just points of comment, there was something about the importance of the individual Something about the importance of collaboration And something about the importance of practical solutions, not least the importance of being equal to generating sort of a project I'm not sure we talked about another value importance of funding We considered the role of expertise, passion, commitment But we couldn't say more about money, whose job is it to pay for all of this And it shouldn't be accepting and going towards the end of the year that we're going to involve them So you might want to pick up But actually I want to just throw over on the floor to you guys and say Are there any questions for our speakers? I thought those four were really interesting sort of Contrasting papers, but I just want to ask, I have something about not only exchange I think those examples are quite a really interesting, particularly the money views What sort of came into my mind when I had the history working in Scotland And I know the way the Royal Commission has operated over the years in Scotland I'm just wondering, to what extent is the knowledge exchange for looking at the community on goods Actually challenging the sort of recording standards and the categories into which you're basing the science you're looking at And I mean, if that hasn't really occurred, and this is a sort of top-down question I suppose in the world Obviously what we're doing is really engaging with those people But do you think in the future, if you continue doing similar projects They may actually feed back into the sort of standards that people, archaeologists and historical and street people use to analyse the understanding on the scale What is that a question? I think I understand that you're talking partially about the source, terms and recognition of heritage And understanding what is a square arrow and not a path I'm talking about the sort of categories that the Royal Commission and archaeologists more generally sometimes place science into act I mean it's not like trying to undermine or attack what you're doing One of the things I think we have been discussing is how much engagement actually can charge our own professional knowledge I think that's essentially what you're doing with these great landscapes or buildings I should say I'm not trying to reduce this in terms of archaeology, I'm such a convivial I'm asking you as a professional, the sort of professional things you do in your own lives Are being challenged, whether it's just the operations through which you undertake these activities That's right, and I think you've identified the potential tension between We have a role to play in internalising the historical landscape in months and months across But we even find it was a, it was particularly an attention at all where we were working with people Because in a rich little moment and it challenged us to question why we were making these decisions And having to back them up and that's how it worked quite well But we did have a kind of, all right, expertise and we did have a breadth of knowledge And if you add it up, the team members experience, you know, a couple of surveyors in the park room And then there could be our colleague and someone I straddle there who's got 742 years of experience Of a few of one of us in Scotland and you add them up and yes, there is a breadth of knowledge within the team And we have to maintain that breadth of knowledge but the important thing is the sharing of the knowledge And the way in which you do undertake that share and how you have that discussion on site And how you have this back and forth about whether this is a pen, a pen, a square, a canes, a keel, a keel Those that have been robbed through or clearance and nothing more as well And yes, okay, at the end of the day I'm the one who creates the site record In Canada or in the National Monitor's bank database But if there is a contested issue that can be between yourself and myself and within the team And elsewhere, we will go back and we'll look at the site and yes, we get it wrong We know this from excavation but we have to call it a something as well And what we've now done is opened up a controversial resource to our modern database So people can add new sites to it, they can challenge other sites as well And don't forget, there's a word for this in the box, it's called all to name You can always give it another name if you don't agree So, I ask a question I think so I'll ask you anyway Great, can Crispin have a question? Thanks very much, Crispin Truman, Church's Conservation Trust My question is what is the role of national bodies in an era of localism and the need to that What is the right level of public funding in an era where public funding is going down and down Assuming it's not zero I think I'll go a bit of an answer to that one, I think Obviously, you're not just sharing as far as they have to sort of talk about that But also think national bodies in an era where we're not turned over with loads of capacity and expertise We're not a nationalisation model anymore It's about catalyzing, it's about brokering the right packages support It's about identifying weaknesses in communities and individuals Because individuals won't be able to do it their way And filling those gaps in the right way And yes, sometimes bringing the expertise And yes, sometimes bringing funding But usually match funding, target funding To make a whole package of support work So that's my thought And anyway, if you're interested in what yours are too And the right level of public funding, nobody talks about that We also agree that public funding is going down and down I don't think we can do without that I think we're a national audience in a bit of a field You always need some public money Does anyone think about what it is the right level of public funding? Very interesting question Okay, again, Steve's going to start with that All right I can't offer you a level of what I do say is that I really believe New Zealand's going to be smaller in heritage in the future I checked the UK debt time bomb website this morning And then you take a look at it It's a rolling picture of the UK debt And it now stands at 1.2 trillion of lots of digits after it So this economic recovery You know, it will smooth things out for a while But the long term is that we're going to face a smaller government expenditure And that's why I think it's a key issue To think about what you, the sector, want From your state heritage services in the future They will be smaller There will be a conflict on priorities The things that you've added, different services to the UK That's why I think the debate on the role of the experts is interesting On how much expertise do we need to keep the sector together I'm sure the right one in the way of the future But all of the examples we heard Tended to involve someone from the government funding institution Providing them expertise along the way I can't give you a figure Who is less than nothing? I'm Ignorant Sorry I was just a pessimist I was just trying to speak I'd like to come in here Because I think you are a public sector funding that's available It's almost a bit of a red herring Because actually, from my experience The projects that I've been involved with The long share of the money It's come from big lottery It's come from heritage lottery If you look at the one worth restoration What's been achieved over the last 10 years Out of 20 million pounds worth of restoration Probably only half a million of it Has come from English heritage So actually I'm seeing the wrong, it's more importantly Provision of expertise As an advice, rather than cash flow You're putting money in From my experience Does anyone want to pick up on this question of funding? Because I think it's a kind of interesting one Before we move on Yeah, I think we'll do just Razorball What I was going to say yesterday And today is the lottery It keeps coming up again And again, and it's doing fantastic work And has been said it has transferred the landscape What has been possible And where people managed to engage But I'm just slightly worried That a message that may come out In these two days Is that, in the future The lottery can sort it all out The lottery can pay for it all And there are areas of activity Which I suspect the lottery Will not want to pay for it possibly And might not be the best organisation To pay for it And that's a lot of the Assertive nitty gritty The boring bits The keeping records up to date And more many else The unpopular bits I'm the man from the ministry That's the same note And in the set of standards Producing documentation Which explains the people why these decisions are being made And I'm just slightly concerned That the government may be thinking That they can either off all their financial responsibilities For heritage To the lottery which seems to be this You know, we're all in the pot And I don't think that's the case And I don't imagine the lottery people So I think we just need to be a little careful About what message comes out From these two days as to that Solution of government People within the government may be looking To find a sort of approved solution Thanks, and I think that's interesting Making a question we should be asking ourselves Is not when is the right level of government funding But what is the right role for government funding And what are those market failures that we need Or do we need public money To help us correct There is a, at the back here Thank you, Mr. Scarlet I have a question for Marcus And Marcus, one of the messages I took From your talk Was that there is an important role For either appropriate And sensitive to commercial government Deceased buildings And a very important role for the private Provider response and the right owner But what I took from this Was actually an exemplary Regeneration of projects And the almost the entire Funding effort came from The public purse In one way or another So I would try to move the debate away From state funding Through the other two agencies Which have Hereditary responsibility Towards the broader question Is there any vulnerable alternative To the public purse In its more general sense In these issues that we face Marcus seems to suggest That there might be The examples you get He appears to be calling For the public money or whatever Can I perhaps give you some more on that The hospital I ran That had a big injection Through a new territory But a lot of the other hospitals Have been down on a commercial basis And so they haven't required A lot of historical documents And any examples of things That can be done Through commercial investment I mean obviously it's got to be Very important that they're controlled So that they don't result in The desparation of the sites Or inappropriate development around it But I think you know Whether they're spending commercial House conversions, whether Commercial buildings, hospital There is a real opportunity for A private commercial investment In an ideal world Things would be commercially viable Unfortunately the reality is that they're not And it also varies from Geographical area to geographical area And the projects I've been involved Where there are lots In disease deprivation And effectively the states Have to step in because The market forces have failed And it's been necessary to have That level of state intervention To actually affect transformation and change If it's left to the private sector In the commercial world It wouldn't happen And I think it's very different Talking about restoring To the London and the South East To the former industrial cities Of the North And Cornwall as well Which has its own importance Thanks, we have a sick group Around here We've quite a few mentions That some years ago With the charity to provide government Which was created in statutory Which was that the local government Was supposed to actually have a terrier Under their mislead buildings And then following on from that It was supposed to be a statutory Framework of criminal repair For those something which slipped away Of our regulation Unfortunately we're over there And I want to do that Which is this business about And inclusion Some years ago I'm going to Conflict Vienna in some other Sort of about the numbers and moments That they had in an essential role What they were doing was actually Using local communities completely Undefeatedly Able at that time Certainly not academic Or it may not be qualified But they were going to be pushing Chart of restoration, cleaning, etc Of extraordinary fragile moments To take a breath around the thing And the talent to say We just don't have money, we've got to make it And that's what we have to do And there's a bigger story about that But looking through it in a sense To set the feeling for you I think there is actually to be that challenge Coming with the monuments From the first and second world war Where there are many grants available And I'm just interested in this business About the fact that I suspect Most people would have this business With the age, might and perhaps You don't see the letters as clearly As you did of people That were family members Will all be quite relaxed About the fact that in order to build Inclusion from our local communities We were allowed to actually get the felt To enter out and start metering in And doing various other things Because it gives them a sense of Involvement in one Aspect of antiquity Many of the panel want to respond to Right, well maybe we'll bundle it up So we can get the comments that are coming So if you wouldn't mind passing your mic forward to that Gentlemen, we've been waiting for quite a while Let's go back to the Frank Russell architectural history practice Let's go back to the issue which has been Touched on a lot of times that The dreaded words enabling development Have been used in these two words Certainly the most recent I think Lloyd this morning said that In some ways the actual Visiting buildings and issues have To a great extent been solved We don't have huge numbers of demolitions These days, but most of the recent cases That I've been involved in have been involved In the setting There are going to be some buildings Which, because they're sitting so sensitive I'm never going to miss their problems I'm not going to be solved by Enabling development So there's got to be funding from somewhere The lottery can't always do it And other issues, I think that just as the government Is reducing funding For the heritage directly There's also news and planning regulations And just to me there was a serious danger Despite the English Heritage Guidelines Which have been extremely useful There will be increasing difficulty In protecting the setting I think I agree, we have a real challenge Around setting The lady here who wanted to ask the question That's well for my question Yeah, well obviously protecting the setting Is very important And often leading to development And so to be a lever to increase the value Of the site and the money generated By the lady in the government Goes into the development Rather than the historic buildings That is really fundamental But on this point about that Areas of economic guide Difficulty Saves to you not quite the level Of the typical town houses there And the problem there is that One of the things that the only way Of getting any money is from the public sector They don't actually accept that There are people queuing up Who like to buy these houses But then invest their own money in it And they offer 20 houses for a pound They have 3,000 wires A few people want them To take on these houses They haven't given away one yet And there are a lot of people Who actually won't spend money on heritage And it's always a big way I think there will always be A short form in funding Where funding needs to come in From somewhere even altering Public sector or whatever But in a way, doing up buildings Is the sexy side of the business We can see a result We can see an improved building It's something that Communities get together to do a project They can see an end result Thinking of what Karanza said There is a very long sexy side of the building And Alex's touchstone Is the silent process It's the regulatory side It's the fact that somebody Has to actually do the development control The development management When we call it Somebody has to be stopping the development That affects the setting of the building Somebody has to be making those Very hard decisions Which cut across What government actually wants to see It's not seen as Enabling, it's not seen as Sexy, it's not seen as full looking It's the big problem How to actually say no And that will still need funding And that's the bit Where the authorities are losing their Constituencies, they're losing their staff Where in charity it's being Stripped at the expertise It used to go around and be able to say Actually, this is What the effect of this will be These are what our policies are This is what How this cuts across these policies This is what the result will be If we actually carry on doing this kind of development The sort of boring Understanding of areas Which really, really Protects not the special places Not the areas that we're traveling But the day to day places We all live in, we work in We visit, we want to be We just expect them to be there It's not exciting stuff It's day to day stuff And it's very easy Just to quiet this down The resources that enable That day to day motion That we just expect to be there To just keep on happening So this is possibly Our deep oceanic current That we need to be swimming against But maybe I'll see you see once to make a comment To make a point, there'll be a government Consultation about future Management services And we'll see if we can make a representation Anybody else? Can I tell the debate In a slightly different direction And I'll ask I suppose, particularly Steve and Alex About Whether the debate we're having Is a generalised in the Chamber Or whether there are real And probably widening gaps Between England Scotland Wales for that matter And clearly there is the prospect Of that gap widening more And my impression Is the cultural heritage generally Has been Prior to the political agenda In Scotland in the last 30 years When it has been And obviously Resources throw you from that Position if I'm right I think there is A gap over a variety of ways Of legislation and approaches And funding I think in terms of Legislation and approaches That may not be something that is set To worry about And you have deep ocean And you've developed decision-making To worry about Increasing local accountability That's the way it's going to go In terms of funding And we can see Always a difficult Calculation To make And I think it does reflect A different standard Of heritage in those three countries I wouldn't want to speculate Of the reasons why That's good And I'm so glad I'm not supported By anyone here from Scotland Unfortunately, it's a shame There aren't more people Who are part of that It is a very too much Of time currently We are going through a long Transition process for The Royal Commission and Historic Scotland Where on the one hand you have A body of survey recording A public body And on the other hand you have A government agency, civil service And the transition to merge To create what will be A new body This first procedure This would be a minor tailor But Contributions to the White House Historic environment centre Ensured that Ministers Made it very clear This was an extremely important issue And that it could not be Just done for the sake of the pay Now Your question is more about Political use Of heritage potentially Not currently Of the 2015 referendum Will be extremely important And a lot of the commentary From my colleagues in Historic Scotland Let's call it Historic Scotland Because that's probably what the name Is going to be for the human body We can't forward to give it a new name So I'm a member Of the Historic Scotland paper Or not yet, but I will To mention it Colleagues are Really discussing openly About the importance of the big sites The hard and hard sites The important cultural heritage sites These are all the important things Now I'm interested In the lumps and bumps and fields As well, but don't get such big protection But we need to maintain The expertise, the partnerships And the ability and capacity In the centre to go and record Those and get their needs in the planning system Get them into the education system And into the research The databases as well So yes, I think There is a growing difference And it may be exemplified Best of all, sorry, this is rather garbled Best of all, we have a culture minister As well I don't have that So there are Distinct differences as well I'm not saying you fool about I'm just observing I'm doing a classic, yes That's just X, Y, Z I think we are really Roaming into lunch actually I know one or two people wanted to make a very good Is it a one or two sentence Come back from Alright, Adrian I don't want to I don't want to I can stand up and shout If you see We've heard a massive amount of fantastic stuff Yesterday and today About localism About community authority And community activism And it's always been there It's been there since the 50s It's just getting better and better and better But the paradox to me I think it's the paradox in our lives And by the law And we're also focused by what Steve just said Referring to the government consultation About heritage protection In England Encouraging our souls to write in My view is It can be a waste of time Government will just think it's the same usual players Making the same comments Coming from the same bit of the sector The paradox is how do we get All those activists And community activists To exercise their voice And participate In that democratic process On our behalf And I'm still struggling to do that But it seems to me that that was the challenge For us this morning And I don't know how we do it And I wish I did All right and I think that's a challenge We can take with us into lunch So debate If you have further questions for our speakers I'll be there in my lunch So tackle them, don't let them eat Ask them what you want Thanks very much everybody