 Okay, welcome back to the original Gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Buczelotto. My co-host, Scott Bernstein, will be back with us next week, but I'm going to be holding it down today. We're super excited to have a guest with us, Big Pete James from Chicago. Really, just a fascinating story and the way I'd like to frame this conversation is a social history of the outlaw and we'll use Pete as our, you know, his life as a way to understand that. So thanks for joining us, Pete. Hi, Jimmy. How are you? Good. Good. Great. Thank you. So if people don't know, Pete was, correct me if I'm wrong, regional president. Was that the highest rank you held in the outlaws? It was regional vice president, but I was the one in charge of the Chicagoland area. But I had, there was a regional president I had above me and then, of course, the national boss too. Okay. A national president. Okay. Thank you very much for clarifying that with the Outlaws Motorcycle Club in Chicago. But before we get into that, I'd like to rewind a little bit because I think your earlier experiences are really interesting to start maybe with your teenage years in college because if people aren't familiar with Pete's life, really a fascinating contrast in juxtaposition. Here's a guy who's at a well-known university in Wisconsin studying political science. He has an internship with the state legislature. And yet, on the other hand, he's leading the life of an outlaw. And if we could start with your college years, how did you decide to choose that path instead of staying on the straight and narrow, so to speak, and finish out your degree choosing the path of an outlaw? Walk us through that decision-making process. Give us some details, please. Well, you know, I'll tell you what. It was partly by design and partly by fate, right? So when I was young, and this is about the seventh grade, I had like a dream, but I wanted to be a boss in Chicago. I didn't know what I wanted to be a boss of, but I just wanted to be someone in charge. And then I read the book, The Godfather, and there was so much in it that made so much sense to me. And I thought, wow, if the whole world ran like this, it would probably be a better place. That I read probably in high school, right? So we started moving that way. And then for my family, I was gonna be the first one to go to college because I was gonna play, well, I played football in college. So I leave high school, I go to college to play football, but once I get to college, it opens up a whole new world to me. Now, in the meantime, well, all that's going on, I had an uncle that owned race horses, Trotters. And if you know anything about Trotters, that's could be a pretty corrupt little business, okay? And he ends up, so all of a sudden, he was like my favorite uncle, right? So he, and the parody there is, he graduated from Mark Kent University and became a CPA and decided that, no, that's not what I want. So he could have a great life being a CPA. And he decides that, no, he likes a little faster life and he ends up buying one horse and it turns into a couple of horses. And in the meantime, I'm going with him to the stables and learning about the horses and seeing the lifestyle that goes along with that. And I was pretty impressed by it. And I was like, okay, you got to take all this stuff together, put it together and come up with a plan. So when I got to college, I played football and then that spring semester, my first year, I joined a fraternity. Now you got to remember, this is in the 70s and the 70s don't get the credit that the 60s got for like pre spirits and rock and roll and drugs, sex, rock and roll and drugs and shit. But, so the 70s didn't get that, but that's what was going on in the 70s. 70s only just refined what the 60s started. So here I'm sitting and all this stuff starts rolling down the pipe. You know, there's people selling weed, people selling cocaine, people doing this free love. And here I'm sitting and I'm trying to figure out, okay, where do I go? Do you really want to continue to be a political scientist and then go on to law school? Or do you want to try to follow that vision from when you were in like the seventh grade? And I kind of went along, well, I was in college. I pulled around with a lot of different money making deals, you know, selling weed, stuff like that, you know? And organizing, organizing and making pretty good money. But when I finished college, I went to get, I thought, okay, I really need to go into the legitimate world. So when I finished, I went and I took a few job interviews and there was one job interview and I really liked it. And it was like a pretty good job, but they did all these testing. Once they said they were going to hire you, they were going to test you, right? So the guy who was going to do the hiring and I really, I clicked with this guy. And so he wants to hire me. He puts me through these tests. So I come back for the results of the test. Long story short, he goes, we can't hire you. And I'm like, oh wow, I was really looking forward to hiring, to being hired. And I go, can I ask you why you're not hiring me? He goes, well, you scored off the charts. We've never seen anybody score like you on are you a risk taker? And I'm like, oh, well, what does that mean? He goes, well, it means that we won't be able to help. We can't, we won't control you. He goes, we can't, he goes either, he goes to me, he says, listen to me son. He goes, either you're going to be a millionaire or you're going to live under a viaduct. He goes, there's not going to be, and here I'm no millionaire, but I don't live under a viaduct either, okay? So he goes, we can't hire you. He goes, but the other thing is that was really unusual. Well, he scored, he goes, you really scored high on the honesty test. He goes, you don't, he goes, you don't really bullshit anybody. I go, well, I don't know if that's true. You know, I'm not sure that is true, but so once that happened to me, that kind of sealed the fate. And from that point on, I was like, okay, what can you do? Where can you go? And that's what, that's what kind of started it all. If the guy would have hired me, we probably won't be having this talk. Who knows? Who knows? Now, I got the impression that your uncle was, was he a connected guy? I got that impression, but maybe I'm mistaken. I can't say for sure if he was or he wasn't. Okay, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't pretend to say that, but I do know this, that the two times he got, well, the first time he got pinched, there was the driver, they call him drivers for those traitors, right? The driver turned states of it, right? So they all beat the case. Now, this is the mid seventies in Chicago, right? The second time they got pinched, the only guy who ended up going to prison was my uncle. And when he got out, he never worked another day of his life. Okay. And when he'd take me around the places, like when we finished up at a stable, looking at the horses, doing everything, everywhere we went, most guys he entered, this is going to sound stereotypical. And I really don't want it to sound like that, but it's going to, but most people he introduced me to all had a vowel at the end of their name. I was like, well, at that time it didn't matter. I had no clue. I wasn't really paying attention to that shit. I was just looking around and saying, oh wow, this is pretty cool. You know, everybody's got, everybody's got big cars. Everybody's dressed to the backs. You know, they're throwing around money. You know, I hear kid, here's 20 bucks. Go do this, go do that. I'm like, you know, first of all, I'm, you know, 16, 17 year olds. I'm not really a kid, but I'll take your 20s, you know? Right. So, I mean, it's interesting if you, people, if you look, if you look at Pete's life, it's obvious that he had leadership skills. And so he was either going to, you know, I could have easily, I could easily see you running for public office back then, winning and becoming like the majority leader in the state Senate or something like that. Like you were going to be a leader in whichever field you participated in. It just so happens that it was going to be the life of an outlaw. So I think that's really fascinating the kind of characteristics. Well, here's the one thing I want to make really clear is that I belong to the outlaw motorcycle club. Yes, I did. Was I an outlaw personality? Yes, I was. So I was an outlaw before I was outlaw. Right. You know what I'm saying? Right. So to be honest, there's some pretty big difference between being an outlaw, living an outlaw lifestyle and being in any one percenter motorcycle club. Yeah, you're belonging to an outlaw motorcycle group, but it's not the carefree life of an outlaw. Yeah, that's a great point to bring up. And so let's go back to the chronology here. So after the university, so you already have these experiences, running hustles, things like that, leading the life of an outlaw. So people understand this is before though you actually formally join the outlaws motorcycle club, which is so yeah, and I want people to get confused because sometimes we throw out the term outlaw and we're using it in sort of a generic sense like, you know, John Dillinger is an outlaw and that's different than the formal biker group. Yes, exactly. And I want to make sure that that definition that's well defined in this interview because I probably did more, not probably, I know, I did more illegal activity before I joined the outlaws than when I was an outlaw. Well, there's a reason for that too. I mean, there's a lot of people don't realize there's a lot of heat on you, you know, I joined it for one reason and then all of a sudden realized, holy cow, there's a tremendous amount of heat on these people. Right, as opposed to being independent. Well, yeah, I mean, and I realized that. I mean, it wasn't like I was oblivious to it, but you don't know how much until you are in there. You know, it's not like, when you join, it's not like you come out and they, you know, this is all what's gonna be your life. You know, that's not how it's, that's not part of the program. You know that you're gonna follow rules. You know that this is what your goals are. You know that, but you really don't understand the real definition of what this is really all about until you're really in it, you know? And then it's okay. I mean, you understand what the rules are and you got to live by the rules of whatever game you're gonna play, you know? Where before that, I preferred, okay, well, let's make up the game so that way we can make up the rules so that way we can win. Right. And I remember reading about that was some of the tech tactics you used in college to always the politician, right? Like with the social clubs, setting up the social clubs, but then stacking the deck with inviting your friends to join. So then you're always gonna win. You're gonna become the treasurer. I actually did that with a well-known organization that's like worldwide and set records for recruiting. It was amazing. Every day I'd come home and they had some kind of promo. Like if you got two people, and it was one of those moves, elk, eagles type paternal things, right? So it was like, if you got guys to join, like two people to join, you got this, three people to join, you got this. Well, by the time, and it was a one month contest, well, in the one month, I figured it out. I was like, okay, this is pretty cool. I did X amount of people to join. So I ended up getting like 40 people to join in a month, right? So that way I knew when there was any elections, I had a pretty strong block. Right, and the national group was, they were like stunned, right? They were like, how is this possible? Nobody's ever recruited this many people that fast, right? Yeah. Wasn't that the response? Well, especially when they came to see me. Yeah. See, I was just a name, right? But then when all this started happening, you know, I'm getting, I'm even getting sport coats, sport coats, watches, all this kind of shit, right? Every day I come home, every day I come home, there's another fucking gift, right? And you know, it's like, well, what came today? Well, I don't know, open it up. Okay, I don't know. So yeah, so then I took that and I became the governor of that lodge. So obviously, right, you have the leadership skills, but after college, you are operating independently, can, you know, various outlaw activities, you know, hustling, things like that. Walk us through your decision-making process when you decide to join the Outlaws Motorcycle Club and for people who are unaware, I mean, they have a prestigious history, right? Going back to the 1930s, Chicago. So walk us through because, walk us through that thought process when you're like, okay, I'm doing my thing and it's working and I'm making money, but I think I want to be part of this formal organization. Walk us through that, please. Okay, well, I got back to Chicago in 1987, right? I had been traveling around the country, just going, my last stop was a town outside of Boston called McCoon and I decided to come back to Chicago and my cousin had told me he could get me a straight job, right? So I said, okay, I'll do it. I came back and I worked at the straight job for a little bit and then I made money and decent money at the job and I'd always ridden motorcycles. I mean, once in college one time I traded a car for a motorcycle, right? So I'd saved up enough money and it was like, again, back to like fate or the perfect storm. Harleys came out, I didn't mind. I loved riding the bikes, but I wasn't one of these guys that wanted to sit around the garage with a 12 pack and fix the bike, right? Right. No, and that's fine if that's what you like to do. That's not what I really like to do. So then all of a sudden Harley comes out with this new motor that's called Evolution and it's like pretty reliable and you don't have all the bullshit you have with other bikes. So I buy one. I buy my first brand new motorcycle in 1991. So now it's funny because when I was out in Massachusetts one of the clubs that the big rivals were in Massachusetts I knew quite a few of those guys, right? Just through being in certain bars and through a certain business dealings that went on. So now I get back and I buy this new bike and I start riding around and just going into different biker bars and, you know, well I first started with biker friendly and then I went into biker bars. There's a difference between biker friendly and biker bars, okay? Explain that difference, that's interesting. Okay, a biker friendly bar could be like Hooters. Okay. Okay, they want you to come in there and stuff they don't care that you're a biker but a biker bar, you can go in and get your, you can get, you can go in there and say the wrong thing and get your ass kicked. Okay, okay. I got you. Here, to make it simple, biker friendly, the odds of you getting beat up are small. Biker, biker bar, the odds of you getting beat up go up substantially. That's a great way to put it but I think yeah, it's understood, right? That makes sense. Okay, you know what I'm saying? So I started and next thing I know, by my house, not too far away from my house, there was a biker bar and I started going into the biker bar and I got to meet a couple of people and I was like, I always look back at things when I look back at things and during most of my life, I've always been thankful that I was a big guy. Okay, because it just, for the things that I wanted to do, being a large help, okay? Right. Being smart, being smart is the real route. Right. Being a smart person, if you're a smart individual, that's probably the best gift that you could have. Right, but if you're imposing, that helps too, I suspect. It does, if you're, depending on which route you're gonna go down and the route that I had been chose, that was very beneficial. So now I'm hanging around in this biker bar and now here comes some outlaws. Well, the next thing I know, hey, come on down to the clubhouse. And the first time he asked me to come down to the clubhouse, I didn't even go. I was like, well, I'm not sure this is the route for me. The second time, he kind of shamed me into it. He was kind of ghosting me. I was like, are you afraid to come down there? Uh-oh. I was like, no, I'm not afraid to go anywhere. Right, right. He goes in, why don't you come down? And he says, okay. When's a good time to come down? So he goes Friday night. So I went down there Friday night. I got in there and it's Friday night, was open house night. And this happened to be the mother chapter. It wasn't the original outlaw clubhouse from like 1935, but it became known as the mother chapter. It's now called the South Side of Chicago, but that's pretty much where it all started. And everybody, that was pretty good. Pretty decent guys who had fun. I was like, yeah, this isn't too bad. And then from there, I ended up meeting the shot caller. And he took a like with me. Who was that, if you don't mind? Who was the president back then? Back then, it was, well, yeah, actually, actually, you know what, you can look that shit up. Okay. This is the thing here is, and it's probably in the book, which I'm not sure if it is it, but I've been out of the club for six years. What they do and what they're up to is their business. I don't pay attention. Sometimes I hear things that, you know, are going on. And I think to myself, huh, how would you handle this if you were still there? And I say to myself, aren't you glad you're out there? And after the, after the side of these things, because there's something, you know what, was there a call in the shops today? It's not an easy job. It's not an easy job at all, especially if you're any good at it. I mean, you could have that job and be bad. It's like being, you know, like being the president of the United States, there's bad presidents. But that's something that I want to eventually talk about with something that we talked about on the phone last week. You and I, some of the frustrations you had when you were in that leadership role. So you were saying you met the shot caller. And so I'm assuming like they were trying to recruit you. You know what, not right off the bat, you know, it's not like, oh, you walked in the door and you know, it's not like going to a fraternity smoker, you know, where they're trying to get pledges. Right. So, you know, you have to hang around and somebody's got to like you and somebody's got to bring you up. And if it goes through the traditional way is you go there for a while and somebody they get to like you and then you get to be called what is called a hang around and you get to hang around and you get to go to events and you get to do stuff. And then from a hang around, then you go into a lot, most clubs call it prospecting, but in the outlaws it's called probating and you do your probating time, which is can be anywhere from six months to two years and all depends on how things go. But going back to the shotcaller, so he kind of liked me, you know, and he was a tough guy. He was a hard guy to be around, but my whole life, I based everything on, I don't care how hard a guy you are. If I can learn something from you, then I will put up with that. And he was not an easy guy to be around. Most of the guys around him didn't really want to be around them because they did out of respect and that's what they had to do. But if they had their choice, they wouldn't. So a lot of times, some of that shit fell on me. Okay, go pick them up, go do this, go do that. And I would, but I knew that if I was in the car with him, I couldn't learn from him. And I did. And he taught me a lot of things. And when I took over, he told me one of the most important things that anybody ever told me when I took over and he told me straight out, he goes, look, he goes, we've tried everything. You're not gonna get rid of certain types here. Those days are over. He goes, make sure, and I remember saying to him, I said to him, I said, look, I said, how do I keep everybody safe? I go, if I make a decision to do something and how do I make sure all the chapters inside those chapters know that, oh, okay, well, something's gonna happen to brand X. You guys be on your toes because there's gonna be a retaliation, right? You know, I thought that was a good fucking question. I mean, my goal wasn't my goal. After seeing what happened in the big war of 95, I realized that that's, you know, those guys who fought that war were true warriors. Those guys, those guys, they fought their hearts out. Yeah, so the stakes are pretty high. I mean, for audiences who aren't familiar I mean, literally life and death. Right, exactly. And life and death or life in prison. So, and you know, and it turned out however way you wanna look at it, whether a win, loss, stalemate, but the problem still existed. So this guy told me, he said, look, he goes, make sure you always let them know that we're still around. He goes, well, whatever you do, don't kill one of them. Don't murder anybody. He goes, if you murder anybody, he goes, that's gonna bring you great heat. And he also said, don't worry about it. He goes, look, going back to how can I keep everybody safe? Okay, he said to me, he goes, you can't. He goes, your job is to make sure you don't end up in prison and that you can keep running the show. He goes, if you, he goes, so you can't tell everybody, you can only hope that they were trained correctly in being a one percenter. And it's not just slowing on a diamond patch and saying, okay, you're a one percenter. I mean, there's guys I know that, you know, nothing's registered to their addresses. They don't go home the same way. I've just recently started my car with the door shut for 20 years, for 20 years, I know what you, and if somebody got in the car and shut the door, I tell them, open the fucking door. Right, so you're referring to in case that there was a bomb planted in the vehicle. Yeah. So you're talking about the war was between the Hell's Angels, right? They were the primary antagonists to the outlaws. So that's what you're referring to in the 80s. So the stakes are pretty high here. And that's really interesting though, that conversation you're having with the shot caller, because I mean, this is something you and I talked about last week that there's a political science here and at the micro level because, you know, I think if some people think that, oh, these guys are anyone in the underworld, it's all impulse and they're just committing crimes and they have no impulse control. And what you're talking about here is actually a leadership model. It may be applied to counterculture. It may not be in the mainstream corporate or politics or something, but it's definitely a leadership model. Yeah, and I'm gonna tell you something. There's four books that I use as like a Bible that I used as a Bible for everything that when I still refer to it to this day, but that molded my thinking. And one of them was Sun Tzu's Art of War. Now, the title, the title, would you hear Art of War? Oh, okay, how do you win a war? Well, yeah, but that's not what the title is about. It should be how to avoid the art of avoiding a war. Right. So that was the philosophy that I took with me when I ended up taking over after seeing how hard and how valiantly those other guys fought. And, you know, I mean, there was the outcome was the outcome. I mean, I'm not, I mean, my hats off to those guys, but the outcome was the outcome. And remember, there's a contrast in leadership style too, because I know it may be one of the other books are going to mention Mario Puzo's text, the Godfather Knight. And I think of the alternative model, which remember Tom Hagan and Sonny having that debate and Tom Hagan says, listen, war isn't good for business. But then Sonny says, well, then business will have to suffer. So they have two competing leadership models. It's so it's interesting. And it is interesting and business can suffer, but it can't suffer forever. Right. Because once people, once that money that flows down, once that money stops flowing, that is a lot of that is based, that money brings loyalty. Okay. So that money, when all of a sudden the money starts to dry up and you have guys live in a certain lifestyle and they can't make the money they were making because you're busy in a war, that causes a problem. That's a morale issue. Sure. That's a great point. That's, there's so much to it. And so many people say, well, if I was boss, if I was boss, if I was boss, if you were boss, it would be fucked up. That's great. That's a great soundbite we have to use that. You know, I mean, seriously, really, I'm just saying, and there's so many guys, you know, well, I'd run it like this. I'd run it like that. I'd do this. And you have that no matter where, whether you're in a law firm, the United States Congress, you know, wherever you are, or a criminal organization, there's always motherfuckers out there. If I was boss, if I was boss, you know, okay, what would you do? Yeah. And we've seen that with like the, we're talking about outlaw biker clubs, but with the Italian-American mafia, I mean, we've seen certain bosses take the throne and just run the family into the ground because they're so bloodthirsty and less concerned about what you're talking about, which is a business model. Right. And there's long-term, there's short-term, and you have to think that through. Oh, okay, great. We can make a lot of money for the next six months and then be fucked for the next five years. Okay? I mean, you have to be smart enough to understand when to be the tortoise and when to be the hare. Right. That's a key. People think that being a criminal, oh, that's a great life. It's a hard fucking life if you do it right. Great point. Yeah, great point. You know, if you want to do it fucking wrong, that's great. Go put a ski mask on and rob the fucking 7-Eleven. That's a great point, right? A lot of bad criminals out there, right? Yeah, there you go. Go ahead. I mean, I used to love it. When I would read the newspaper, like the local suburban newspaper in my suburb and my surrounding suburbs, I loved it when that fucking police blotter was full. That means the coppers are busy. Yeah, right. Yeah, letting us focus on you. I would open it up and see maybe two or three pinches. Yeah, that ain't good. That's giving them time to be fucking, that's giving them time to be snooping around. Right, right. Yeah. Oh, wow, there's 15 fucking guys. Hey, great. Sorry, buddies. I hope you remember the number one rule of being a fucking criminal. If you can't afford bail and the lawyer on your first pinch, then you're not very good at what you do. Yeah, I mean, and I remember, so you rise to the ranks, you assume a leadership position, and some of the great things that we were talking about last week was, and I mentioned that because we're both fans of the Sopranos, you and I, and I mentioned that you reminded me of Tony because Tony's trying to run a tight ship, but a lot of the people around him are not living up to those same expectations and the frustration. I mean, it's kind of comical the way it plays out in the TV show, but you're talking about real life. I can imagine it's not as comical, but if you could talk to us about some of the like the frustrations you had with like, you know, just punctuality and like trying to explain to your members how to evade police surveillance and just like some guys not quite understanding it. Well, some guys not even caring. You know, and see, what happens is a lot of guys don't ask that final question of, what did you think was gonna fucking happen? Right. Do you think that when you're at the funeral and the surveillance was across the street and you come walking across to get to your bike or something and you're grabbing your fucking balls and you're giving them a fucking finger and you're fucking doing that shit, you think they're just sitting over there saying, oh, look at this guy, he's funny. Look at him. No, they're saying, right? This motherfucker down, he's this guy. Right. Who is this one? Yeah. Right. You know, so you gotta think this shit through. And then you got, see, I put everything in equations. Okay. Equations don't necessarily have to be numbers. They can be items. Okay. So now here we, here comes along Joe Blow. Okay. Well, Joe blows, and he's 50% honest, you know, he's loyal, he's kind of a sneak thief. He will, if the opportunity arises, he will steal. So you build this equation, right? And at the end, you hit equal, just like in any other equation in life, you hit fucking equal. And at the end of it, if the equal is greater, than the minus, then be friends with them. If it turns out that it's a loss, and dealing with some of the people I dealt with, there was a lot of times guys were lost. I mean, some of the equations were really, were pretty simple. Now, let me say this to you. Just because an equation comes out that you won't do something with somebody, doesn't mean that you won't have a drink, or you won't go for a ride, or you won't go out to dinner, or you won't go to something. That just means the equation goes into place of, will you trust this guy so that you don't end up in prison? That's where it is. Well, if you do an equation, and it comes out, and it comes out, like a simple equation, this guy's stubborn, and he's not very bright. Hit equal. Bad combination. Yeah, how's that gonna work out? How's that gonna work out? Right. So one of the things about being a leader is you cannot set people up to fail. Yeah. Right? So I used to have this one guy, he was like a Coke machine with a head. Right? I mean, that doesn't look like it, right? Yeah. So I'm not fucking saying to this guy, hey, you know what, we gotta get into this fucking building, shimmy up the drain pipe. Of course not, right? Well, right, and this is over simplified, but that's how people think sometimes. You wanna know what you gotta deal with? This is the shit you deal with. Okay, so now you look for the little guy. This guy over here, he's five eight, five nine, five 10, 160 pounds, 180 pounds. He's a good shape. Shimmy up the fucking drain pipe. In and the fucking window, come down and open the door, okay? All right, now. Okay, there's no drain pipe. You don't take the 180 pound guy and say, hey, knock the door down. The rest of us are gonna stand here and let you slam up against that door until it breaks. Oh, okay. Well here, should we send out for fucking lunch? It'll be there all day. Yeah, we'll be here all day. Now the other guy, the Coke machine, what they had smashed that fucking door, smashed that fucking door down. He's gonna take two fucking runs, edit it and it's gonna be kindling. Right. Okay, and see, that's the kind of shit that if you're gonna lead, you have to understand all that. Yeah. You won't, I mean, you can't, and there's guys, I'll tell you what, man, every time, just because you belong to something, doesn't mean that you're a great leader. I mean, look at some of the fucking guys that had been elected the president of the United States. Great point, yeah. Okay, so just because you get elected to something, that by no means assures that this guy's gonna be a great leader. So the difficulties that, and not only that, but seeing because of a plan that I had taken of, okay, let's just grab territory. Wherever anybody goes, there's gonna be outlaw supporters, right? So that's where that CLC came into effect with that confederation of clubs where there was like 40 support clubs. So they were all over the city. And then those 40 support clubs had motorcycle associations underneath them. So I know that at SWAT meets, there was one big SWAT meet that used to come. There's a bunch of them, like, well, not a bunch, but there's a few that come through Chicago and surround the areas. But the one, main one, like the, I don't know, the Krum, daylight, Krum, the ball, the big ball, you know, the big master eight ball, whatever the fuck I thought was, you know what, I put like 400 people, 500 people there, 500 guys there, nothing's gonna happen here. Yeah. What if you come in here 50 strong? Yeah. What are you gonna do? And besides, those days are over. Yeah. Everything today, and I don't know this for a fact, like I said, I've been one for six years now. But if I was out there, boy, I'll tell you what, I would have to go, I would have to go ninja style, you know? Yeah, stealth. People riding up a 25, 30 bikes, get off the bikes and run into a bar and beat up everybody in the fucking bar. You're gonna have mob violence, mob action, all that kind of shit breathing down your throat. Yeah. Right. You know, so if you, you know, that's why I'll tell you a lot of times for me, I didn't care what it would cost. We would, there would never be a loose end. I don't care, I don't care if we own the vehicle for one fucking week. Yeah. One fucking week. Okay, go out there and buy this vehicle, it's $5,000. Okay, great. 2000, whatever it was. We're gonna use this for a fucking week. The minute the fucking whatever it has to be, whether we're going grocery shopping or to the liquor store, when we're done, that car is going right to the junkyard. Yeah. You think about all the different guys who've been pinched throughout, all the different, it all starts with, oh, they found the car. Right. Oh, that car was used in the bank robbery. That car was used in this, that car was used in the game, whatever. Right. And now from there, because you know that if they were lazy enough to leave the fucking car behind, they didn't wipe it down. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, it's not that kind of person. Right. He was too lazy to do the right thing. Again, going back to the equation. You want this guy? You want this guy fucking dealing with the rest of your, which your life could possibly be. Right. So it reminds me of the scene in Goodfellas. I'm not gonna say the whole thing because I don't want to offend people in the language that you're using in the film, specifically, but he says, remember he says to, Henry Hill's character says to Karen, he's like, you know who gets busted? And he says, Yeah, right. Because they fall asleep in the getaway car. Right, right. But you know, I know some of them all. That's true. I mean, you know, not getting the stereotype of that conversation, but it is, there's a truth to that. And you watch some of that stuff, even like Casino, Goodfellas, Lathbladder, that's part imitating life. Yeah. And if you don't really understand that, I mean, one of the great things in the book to Godfather don't threaten people. Now you think to yourself, well, that's a pretty fucking, you know, what kind of statement is that? But if you think about, if you read the book, then you follow what he describes, what he means by not uttering a threat, it's like, it says like, okay, look, if you utter a threat, that threat may be in the heat of the moment. And later you may change your mind. Yeah. But you can't change your mind because now you've made that threat. And if you don't follow through with the threat, now you become a liar. Yeah. Yeah, remember in Godfather part three, Michael Corleone's trying to mentor his nephew and he says anger clouds the judgment. I don't know if you remember that scene. Yeah, no, I do, but, and see, and I'll tell you what, I'm no one to say because I have a flash point of, you know, gasoline. You know, you remember, I mean, my fucking, I'm a moody fucker. Yeah. And you know, some of it because of what you deal with all the time and something just because that's my DNA, okay? And I know I have to constantly put that in check. Yeah. And do I do it 100% of the time? No, no, do I try? And after, and after I might do it, it's like, fuck. Right. I mean, I don't worry about that shit anymore. But you know, at one time and it's like, you don't, your mind doesn't get to rest. Right. And also, I don't know. Another example of, if you wouldn't mind sharing that you told me on the phone last week and I just loved it was, you're just talking about the frustration of trying to keep people, you know, keep things together mentioning that when we have meeting times, I'm going to, I have a formula. I'm going to give you the meeting times. And here's what I'm going to say, but here's what it means because police is surveilling us and if the phones are tapped and some of your guys had a difficult time understanding. Yeah, those, yeah, right. You know, and now you have to deal with this guy. But it also tells you, it also tells you he's the last guy you're going to call. So yeah, what I used to do, I used to do a couple of things. You know, I used to, I used to never, I would, I didn't know who was in that fucking room. I've seen, I saw when we have church, okay? I saw way too many guys who I would say to myself, no fucking way will that fucker flip? Oh yeah, he did. So, okay. Now, how do you, how do you do stuff? So for myself, I actually used one of those magnetic boards. And the other thing I did was, and I saw this watching one of those, I did that and I know you want to talk about how I set up the time, the times and stuff. And I will, but the other thing that I did also was, I remember seeing a forensic file or something that's shown us about the, the mob boss out in New York, they've got gun down on front of Sharky's. I forgot his name. But anyways, he's thought by playing music, that would, they couldn't hear what he was talking about inside his house. So play loud music. And I was watching this program about him and they were saying he thought that and that was a mistake. And because they can separate music from talk. Right. Right? So my thinking was, okay, put the weather channel out. Now we got all these people talking on the weather channel too. So I would always leave the weather channel out, but I'd use the magnetic board for anything. Like, how I would set, how I would set things up was like, if you watch a baseball game, I took, I love baseball, right? So if you look at the third base coach, he's over there giving signs, right? But it's called an indicator. So no matter what he's doing means nothing until he gives the indicator sign. Right. And then after the indicator comes, what you're supposed to do, bounce, swing, do whatever you're supposed to do, right? So I set it up for like on phones that a certain word would be an indicator. Once the indicator word came, then whatever followed after that was what was going on. Now for the meeting places, I had six different chapters underneath me, right? And then I had a bunch of support clubs with six actual 1% or outlaw chapters underneath me. So I went in every one of those areas and found greasy spoons where guys like us would walk in and we wouldn't turn heads, okay? So that would be the location of where we would meet. And I wrote that down on a piece of paper and only gave it to each, nobody knew any of the other locations. So A didn't know where B's location was, B didn't know where C's was, C didn't know where D's were. Now they might have talked on their own and said, yeah, he's got me going over here. I don't know, I can't say, and they might have. The dumb ones probably did, the smart ones probably did it, I don't know, right? But then I would say on the phone, listen, I'll meet you at three o'clock, which meant I will meet you two hours before whatever the number was. So I meet you at four, what time are we meeting, Jimmy? It's a test question, go ahead. We're meeting at four, Jimmy. What time are you gonna be there? At two? Is that what you said? Exactly, right. Yeah, exactly. I know, don't be nervous. I'm usually the one administering that stuff. You got me. I know, don't be nervous, hang in there. Hang in there, it's almost over, it's almost over. So how long does that take for you to grasp? Yeah, just a few seconds. I don't know, 15 seconds? Right, right. Okay, well, you know what? I had guys that, that wasn't true. You know what I'm saying? Another thing too, I was crazed for fucking time. If you weren't on time, I looked at it as being disrespectful. I remember one time I pulled out of a meat zone as guys were pulling up. And I remember Mr. Happy saying to me, hey, there they are. I go, yeah, I know, I see them. He goes, aren't you stopping? I go, no, let them fucking catch up. They're supposed to be here at one o'clock. It's one o'clock. Right. So it took me a little while, but it got to the point where everybody knew that if it was one o'clock, they were there at 12.45. Right. Yeah, so the punctuality was important and wasn't a suggestion. No, laws and rules are suggestions. Time is when you're gonna fucking be there, okay? So when I first got to the north side of Chicago, I didn't start there. I started somewhere else. I mean, these guys would come shut, and I wasn't, I didn't, I mean it took me like six months to become the boss of the north side of Chicago, right? So, but they'd come shuffle in whenever they fucking wanted to. True shows at eight o'clock. Guys were showing up at eight 30. Wow. And I wasn't used to that because where I came from, fucking they said eight o'clock, you better be there at eight o'clock. Yeah. And not only that, but it goes to the brotherhood. You should be there at six 30. The meeting's gonna start at eight, be there at six 30 and have a few drinks with your brothers. Enjoy yourself. Not like, oh wow, the meeting's at eight. Oh, okay. I can get there by eight 15 because I gotta leave the bar where I'm at. I'm having more fun at the bar than I am with my brothers. And that's why I tell you, I used to tell people all the time, if you don't enjoy this whole life, that you're picking the worst thing you possibly could do, go play golf, go learn how to bowl or play tennis, do shit like that. But if you don't like being on your motorcycle and being a one percenter, you don't get weekends off. Yeah. Well, it's a free weekend. Now where the fuck are you live? Yeah, I remember you were talking about like you'd have an important meeting set up and someone would suggest, well, you know, it's Valentine's Day. Maybe we could postpone the meeting and you were like just completely like stupefied. Like, are you kidding me? Want to see another Chicago Massacre? Keep that shit up. Another save for Valentine's Day, that's good. I'll show you another fucking massacre, you fucker. Oh, you know what's wrong with you? Right. And I don't be grudging Valentine's Day. Sure. You want to buy the whole way. You want to buy the wife, the old lady, the mistress, whatever you want to do, do whatever you want to do. But they don't come first. Yeah. They don't come first. And that's just the way it is. Yeah. I mean, that's the way it's supposed to be. So you mentioned the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. I don't know if you want to feel comfortable talking about this, but we talked about this last week with the Italian mafia in Chicago, the outfit. And I mean, we don't have to get into any names. But one thing that I think our audience might find interesting is it seems like law enforcement in the media tried to paint this picture that there was a formal alliance between the outlaw bikers, motorcycle club, and the Italian mafia. And they called it the double O alliance, because in Chicago, they call the mafia the outfit. And you explained to me that, well, some guys might know each other socially. Maybe some guys have some business arrangements with each other individually. But the idea that these groups conspire together and sit down and have like, almost like in the Godfather, right, like a meeting of like 30 guys that that's not true. Do you want to comment on that? Well, that's pretty accurate. That isn't true. Yeah. But you know, I mean, and I know that people, that sounds good. You know, it sounds good to flash on the TV, stuff like that. But it's not the reality of it is it's not true. Now, I can't say back in the 70s or the 80s what went on. Sure. You know, I mean, I don't know if there was some mutual business or beneficial stuff. But basically, that's kind of the big problems with the motorcycle world today. OK, be motorcycle, be the fringe members of society, be the tough guys, take no shit. But you're not organized crime. That's a problem, you know. But when you look at it and you think, OK, well, who can we put in jail? Well, bikers are pretty easy to put in jail, prison, blacks, Hispanics, bikers, mob guys, whether it's Italian, Albanian, Russian, whoever, you know. So we got white guys to throw in with the minorities. So ACLU aren't going to be up our ass. And bikers, bikers play right into it. You know, and that's why one of the chapters in the book, when they sent me the first draft draft, they had it wrong. Because everybody looks at it that way. They put it as crime pays or crime does pay. But that's not what the chapter was supposed to be entitled. The real title was crime does pay just not forever. So if you're really smart, whatever money you make, you take that money and you put it into something legit and you run that legit thing. You keep that legit thing for a couple years, sell it because you really don't want the fucking thing to begin with. Sell it, take that money that you get back and go back into some kind of lice. The lices are pretty safe. Even though the government has turned them into, I mean, it's pretty hard to be a bookie when they legalize gambling. It's pretty hard to run numbers of shit when you have lottery. It's pretty hard to be a loan shark when you have titles for cash. You and I talked about the changing landscape, how it used to be you had to control the drug territory or you control the gambling territory and the physical sense of territory and that's obsolete because of the internet now technology. This doesn't work that way. Yeah, exactly. And you can look around and you can see how the internet has changed everything. I can't speak for, I can speak up to changes that I know in the biker world, right? And because of the internet, you got clubs from Australia starting chapters in Chicago. Wow. How did that happen? Globalization, right? Did you guys all fly over to fucking Australia and be trained to follow what they did and then they just send you a fucking email with the fucking rules and charge you X amount of fucking dollars for your patches and said, yeah, go ahead. Now you're this. Yeah, yeah, it's changed. That's interesting. That's interesting how it's changed. Now in the United States, that's not, I mean, it's not that easy, you know? But because of the internet, you got guys from all over the country talking to each other and becoming friends. Yeah. And then saying, Brown, some guy that's in club X talks and they're basically in, I don't know, South Carolina, okay? So they're basically in South Carolina and the states are on the South Carolina. Well, he starts talking to some guy in fucking Kansas. The guy in Kansas? Yeah, okay. And the guy got in South Carolina and invites him down to fucking down the whole party and shit, and the guy in Kansas goes to the party. He comes back, he tells us, but he's all mad that I have a blast with these guys. Hey, maybe we should start our own chapter. They said we could start our own chapter. And I'm not saying this is how it happened, but it sure appears to be that way. Cause you got people, you got people spouting up all over the place. I imagine that makes it more challenging for like guys, old school guys like you that had a specific leadership model. That must make it even more challenging for the old school guys. Yeah, I'll tell you what, for me right now, I don't care. But if I was still there, that would be pulling my fucking hair out. Right, yeah, that's what I imagine. I remember I had to talk with one kid, right? This was a club out of Canada, a one percenter club out of Canada. That was basically just a Canadian club. But they were bad ass fuckers. Yeah. Okay, they didn't take us back to any of the big boys. They had some huge wars up in Montreal with big, big, big time, one percenter clubs and they didn't back down. All of a sudden, I get a call from this guy and he says, hey, I'm calling to say hello. I'm like, yeah, well, who the fuck are you? Right, yeah. And he says, well, I'm so-and-so, I'm calling for my boss. He wants to come to Chicago, we're out in the suburbs and he wants to come to Chicago and meet you. I go, well, where club are you from? And he tells me the club name. I go, oh, I'll wait a minute. Are you from Canada? He goes, no, we live here. Oh, well. I go, okay, well, yeah. Okay, I said, why don't you come down and meet, okay, we'll meet. So they came down and meet me, not me. And I was like, you guys are stupid. I mean, you know, you're not gonna bother me, but you're gonna bother other people and they're not gonna fucking deal with you. And you know what, I saw him that one time and he actually told me, they told me that they had tried a club from Australia, but they didn't like them as much. So they flipped off from a club from Australia and became a club from Canada. Now, what they don't understand is they're lucky that it's this day and age where they're not gonna catch two behind the ear. Yeah, right. Okay, in the 90s, 80s, 70s, that kind of shit caught you got two behind the ear. Right. Yeah, that was taken pretty seriously. Yeah, yeah, but now it's like, now there's, and here's the other thing, the internet took care of fucking turf. There's no turf anymore. Right. Yeah, you can claim this as yours, but if you claim it as yours, now you're gonna have to be fun, but that's why people, people used to get mad at me because anybody who came to see me to set up a MC, I said, fine, go ahead. Yeah. And, you know, like the guy that was my enemy, he said, hey, and I heard your approval and everybody that comes to see you. I go, yeah. He goes, you think that's a good idea? I go, do you think it's a bad idea? Yeah. He goes, well, yeah, I kind of do. I go, but let me tell you why it's a good idea. He's like, oh, why? This is because I don't have to worry about him. Yeah. I go in a year's time, they'll wither on the line, they won't even be around. Right, right. I go, but what happens if they come and see me? And I say, no. And they say, and they go, oh, okay. So thanks for your time. Walk out the door and there's one or two guys that are kind of tough guys. Yeah. And they say, you know what? Fuck them guys. Right. We're gonna do it anyways. Now I gotta spend time tracking down the six guys. Right, and enforce the old school, right? Yes, yes. That's part of the issue too, that's out there. It's not worth the resources. It's not worth the time and resources to enforce that. Exactly. And I used to tell people all the time, I say, look out your window. They go, huh? I go, look out the window. Just go ahead, look out the window. And they go, yeah, okay, I'm looking out the window. I go, do you see a dinosaur walking by? They'll be like, no, I don't see a dinosaur walking by. No, you're not going to. You know why? Cause they didn't adapt. Yeah, right. Yeah, evolution. They didn't adapt and they became extinct. Yeah, right. If you're gonna continue this, you have to adapt. You have to stay faithful to your beliefs, but you have to adapt your thinking to be able to maintain those beliefs. What worked in 1975 isn't gonna work in 2020. Right. They didn't even have phones. Right, that's a good point. And I know we're almost out of time here, but one question I want to get in related to this is, you and I are fans of pop culture and we've referenced some movies and literature, but specifically with Outlaw Bikers, Sons of Anarchy was a very popular show and now these minds spin off. And you have some opinions on that because I think that factors into this, that like in talking about how like the internet has changed things in globalization and media and how now, you know, a lot of guys think that they watch Sons of Anarchy. Boy, we should form a one percenter club and things are a lot more complicated than that. You want to speak to that, Pete? Yeah, yeah. I'll tell you what, it was a pain in the ass. It was a pain in the ass because everybody's fucking running around. Everybody wants to be in their own club. And all those guys that wanted to be in their own club, they did that because they didn't have what it took to actually go find a club and probate or prospect for an established club. See, in the early nineties, there was a rule in Chicago, no more new clubs. Yeah. And they enforced it. You opened up, they shut you down. You couldn't open up. And no matter who you knew, what kind of strings you could pull, you then open up. That kind of went by the wayside by the mid nineties, but then here comes Sons of Anarchy. And if you look at Sons of Anarchy, Jack's is a serial killer. He's not a fucking biker. You don't get to murder that many people. Now I know it's fucking TV and that's good. But if you want to really, I mean, there are some things in there that are believable. There's other things that are believable, right? But the idea that these people are watching this and thinking they can become this. I'll give you one quick story about Sons of Anarchy, right? There was a big fucking event. This bar puts this big fucking event on, right? So we all go up there to this big event. Now rumors are that some undesirables are going to be showing up at this event, right? So we go there in force, standard operating procedures, send in a couple guys that aren't wearing anything so they can scout it out before the main troops get there. I mean, just one-on-one shit, right? So now we're all in there. And one of the guys comes up to me. Now he was a Hispanic guy. And his English was a little off. And so he goes to me. He comes back to me and he says, I'm sitting around, you know, there's guys out there watching talkies, checking everything out, security. He goes up to me and he says, hey, I saw a California rocker. I go, you bet. I go, that's not good. All right, could be Hell's Angels. Yeah. Could be anybody from California basically is an welcome. Right. Okay. So I go, well, what did the top rocker say? He goes, I don't know. I go, well, you can't come here and tell me he's got California. And I'm not telling me to top rocker what the name is. Yeah. I go, get back out there and find out what the top rocker says. Okay, okay, okay, bless. I'm like, okay. So I get, I tell Mr. Hampe, get on the fucking radios, get the security guys to keep their eyes peeled. There's guys walking around with California rockers. All of a sudden here comes the guy to fucking back, right? I go, yeah, try it out. He goes, yes. I go, what is it? He goes, son of anarchy. I go, I go, what? He goes, son of anarchy. I go, sons of anarchy. He goes, yeah, that's it. I go, you done fuck. That's the TV show. He bought a fucking TV. He's not my game. Motherfucker. So that's, you know, from something that simple, the point of that whole thing is not to really put that guy in the fucking, you know, what happened to him, happened to him. But the guy with the message, the messenger, but that's the kind of stuff you deal with. Yeah. And the stakes are pretty high, right? Like you're thinking, you're preparing for a possible confrontation and turns out it's just a vest from a TV show. You know, it was like one time I was at, we were at an open house at a Harley dealer. And here comes this guy. He's got Bermuda shorts on. He's got his like a little six or seven year old kid who likes Harleys. He's holding his hand. He comes walking in and he's got to support your local house angels t-shirt on. Oh shit. Okay. Now, you know, and I'm not a prick. Yeah. Well, actually I am a prick, but I'm not going to be a prick to a father and a son. So I was like, hey, you know, I see a friend and I say, come here, man. And I go, look, I go, you got to understand something. You can't just go to these things and wear whatever the fuck you feel like wearing. And he goes, what do you mean? I go, well, that shirt you got on, there's 60 fucking guys here that would rip that fucking shirt off your back. Yeah. He goes, oh, really? I go, yeah, really? He goes, well, do you want me to leave? I go, no, no, no. I go, why are you here to begin with? You don't look like you ride a bike. He goes, no, he goes, my son really likes Harleys. I go, listen, man, why don't you walk around, enjoy the fucking bikes, show your son the bikes. I go and then fucking hit the road. And if you wear that shirt, where would you go play golf? Right. What if you go bowling or shit? Don't wear that shirt at motorcycle things. I go because wherever you go, some guys are gonna like that shirt. Some guys are gonna hate that shirt. The guys that like that shirt aren't gonna help you keep that shirt. Yeah, yeah, I mean, again, like if people don't appreciate how, you know, the stakes are pretty high here. Yeah, and it's like people just don't understand. Now, again, who knows if that's still true? You know, like I said, in six years, a lot of things can change. You know what I mean? So I don't really know anymore, but those are the things that you kind of deal with. Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating. And your story, Pete, is fascinating. And we're out of time here, but I really appreciate you sitting down with us. And look up Pete's book, The Last Chicago Boss, and he co-wrote that with Kerry Drobben, who's a good friend of the podcast, and we've had her on before as well. And Pete is just an interesting guy on the one hand. You know, he's an outlaw. He's been involved in some pretty interesting things, but then he can listen to rock and roll, but he also listens to classical music. He's out there hustling, but then he's reading philosophy. Just such a fascinating, interesting dude. And we really appreciate your time, Pete. And I'm gonna text you too, and I hope we can continue talking privately because there's a lot more about the Godfather and movies and things that I just wanna talk to you about privately. So I'll stay in touch with you, but I hope you'll come back on our podcast again at some point soon, Pete. We really appreciate your time. Well, thanks. You know what? I had a good time too, and I appreciate your patience and stuff with us, because sometimes I know I get long-winded, so thanks a lot. Great story, Tyler. No worries. All right, Pete. Well, this is the OG podcast, the Original Gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucciolato. I just wanna remind our audience members to subscribe to us on Apple, iTunes, Spotify, Google, like us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter, Instagram. Hopefully we'll get some video content up soon. We got big Pete here. This is Jimmy Bucciolato. Thanks for listening. Out.