 have joined another episode of the nonprofit show. And this is always one of our best days because it's as my intrepid co-host, Jared Ransom says, Friday, Friday, where we get to have somebody in the hot seat with us. And we're super excited because we have the one and only Tony Bell from fundraising Academy joining joining us from his tropical paradise in Florida. And Tony, I got to say most often times when we are talking with you, I see those palms flowing in the background. Yeah, today it's pretty calm. I mean, I think the, the amount of rain we received over the last few days made national news, South Florida got a lot of rain. But today, you know, for right now, it's, it's nice and sunny. It's, it's that time of year where you can almost set your clock by the, the afternoon storms. So you know, around two 30 or three o'clock, something's going to roll in for a little while. I love it. Well, we always love having you on. And we want to make sure that we also thank all of our presenting sponsors because they are with us day in and day out, Blumerang, your part time controller, American nonprofit Academy nonprofit nerd, fundraising Academy staffing boutique and nonprofit thought leader. If you missed any of our almost 600 episodes, which blows my mind, you can find us on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV and Vimeo. And wait, there's more. We are now taking all of our current content and streaming it into podcast format. So we are where you are when it comes to biking or riding or driving or vacuuming, whatever, get the nonprofit show queued up on your streaming platform. It's a lot of fun. Okay, my friend, are you ready? Because we've got some big questions that have come in for you. Yeah, absolutely. It's always a pleasure to be here with you, Julia. So yes, looking forward to it. Okay, well, you know what, you know how I am. I love, love, love when we have to take someone's name off or we have to take their city off. And I'm going to be honest with you. I took the city off of this question because I didn't want them to be identified. Dwayne from City with Health. Well, you know, sometimes I just feel like it's a little like, oh, no, no, good for you. I don't want to get anyone into trouble. Good way to look out for people. Not a problem. Well, you know, Tony, I get myself into enough trouble as it is. I don't need to bring something along with me. Okay, Dwayne writes, I've been asked to consider leading my position as a chief development officer and take over CEO of our nonprofit. I need some perspective on how and why my life might change with this elevated role and responsibility. So it's a fantastic question. Because many times and I have this conversation recently with someone in our team. Because it's so easy to and depending where you are in life and your kind of career path, it's very easy to say, oh, bigger title, more money. And to only think about those components of an opportunity. One of the things that, first of all, congratulations, because one of the things that I saw in that question was that Dwayne's been asked to serve in this capacity, right? So there is clearly a level of respect and proof of performance that Dwayne has shown the leadership of the organization worthy of being asked to elevate responsibility to serve the organization, excuse me, as the CEO. So so I think that one, I think there were a lot of things just based on the way the question was presented that celebrated support Dwayne moving into this into this role. Now, pardon me, there will be what higher level of accountability, right? I do think that serving in the CEO capacity, having come from fundraising gives you a perspective that folks that come into a CEO role from operations may not necessarily have. You have a deeper understanding of the fuel that runs the engine. And so I think it's a terrific opportunity. It will change, of course, because your level of accountability for the organization will be increased. Your level of accessibility and the demands on your time will probably increase. So that's that's what I would say, Julia, anything else you would add to that? Well, I would add to that is that one of the things it's like, totally gets my goat, and it really makes me crazy is when I hear a CEO say, if I can just get my director of development on board and perform, you know, performing, I won't have to be doing fundraising. And it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. In my mind, and I can't wait to hear what you have to say about this, the CEO is the number one fundraiser. And that they always have that hat on, they don't like, Oh, well, that goes to that different department, that that's a part of their culture and what they're doing. And so Well, I think when we talk about that higher level of accountability, I think that that certainly falls within something that they should be as a CEO be accountable for. And and not just accountable for making sure that the numbers met, but, you know, accountable in terms of engagement and participation in the process. So we often talk about how success really successful fundraising for any organization is a team sport. It's not it does not happen. Because one individual is is not now in some cases, it does. Right? I don't, you know, there, there are those, those unicorns, right, those instances where organizations can thrive and survive because they've got that dynamite fundraising professional that's really making it work for the organization. But you know, I said unicorn for a reason, because those are few and far between. So that's, you know, Well, I love what you said, you know, I think that there's a lot of ways to look at this. And my sense of it is that this is going to be something that's happening more and more. We have not only the great resignation, but we've talked about this a lot on the nonprofit show. And that is we are bleeding off leadership because of a demographic issue, you know, they're aging, and they want to retire a lot of them held on because of, you know, the COVID situation. And now they're like, man, I got to go, you know, and so So Julia, what you what you just said made me think about, you know, something else that Dwayne may want to consider, you know, as, as they move into negotiation, perhaps for this new role, and really starting off with starting the conversation around self care. And, you know, in the time that's going to be required. And, you know, and, and setting those expectations that, you know, there may be a time where as the CEO, I, you know, I got to take that Friday afternoon off. But you know, the CEO is working on Saturday and Sunday anyway. So just, just making sure that there is that level of understanding and trust that you'll be able to navigate the new role with some sort of balance. I love it. And I think you're right. And, and, you know, that's a conversation that we would not even 48 months ago, even considered part of our, our packages. And so I love, love, love that you brought that up because it should be part of your compensation package not not brought up when you're on your knees and you're ready to walk out the door or crawl out the door. Well, that's what makes these particular episodes of the nonprofit show so much fun is because you say something makes me think of something and vice versa. So, you know, so the answers to these questions get deeper and deeper, sometimes a little sidetracked, but mostly deeper and deeper, just because we have this opportunity to really respond to one another to think about it. I love it. Okay. Well, let's get to our next question. And our next question. Okay, name with health Chicago, Illinois. Now, this one came in name with health. I didn't take their name off. So I'm just witnessing. Okay, our CEO is an amazing person, however, he's not a great speaker. How odd would it be to give over public speaking responsibilities to another person in our organization? Or should the CEO always be the nonprofit's voice when it comes to public speaking? I gotta say, we've had this question or questions like this before. It's really an interesting thing when somebody observes from a point of concern, you know, I mean, you've been around a lot of people that do public speaking, you're a public speaker. What do you think about this? Yeah, so I, you know, I don't think that in today's environment and if we start, if we look if we're a little future focused as well, I don't think that we should look to any one person within our organization to be the voice of the organization. Now, I think that you have to have clearly identified leadership, right? There needs to be into, you know, general public donors, volunteers, stakeholders, they need to know who is leading the organization. So I think that that that's the CEO needs to be very present and visible and recognized as the leader of the organization. But the CEO does not always need to be the voice of the organization. So I think it's super appropriate for the CEO again, depending on the, the occasion, the opportunity, the CEO comes up, welcomes everyone. Thanks them for being there and then turns over the story of the organization or the mission or whatever message it is that they want to convey to someone else. Wow, I love that approach. I wouldn't have necessarily thought of it that way. And and for those of you who joined us in our green room chatter, we had a brief conversation about the difference between leadership and management and how you know, you're back and forth back and forth that can all happen within, you know, five minutes. But this is a really, to me, when you the way you phrase that, that's kind of one of those times. You know, and you know, I also am fascinated by this concept of voice because I think that the voice needs to be the same story and the same tone and tenor. But I think that when you have a deeper bench, it's a healthier thing for the organization. You know, I think there's when you can have more people saying more things and being out there and and the media, I think also likes that, you know, when they're instead of saying, oh, we've always had him on or we always have her on versus saying, you know, that there are different voices. I think that's smart. Well, I think it also speaks to, you know, what is your level of commitment in terms of diversifying engagement for your organization? And that's why that's why I feel like the different voices are so important because because the different voices also support different representation. And so it allows for more folks to feel welcomed or compelled to engage. So that's, you know, and again, you know, I think what you said was also really important, making sure that the messaging is clear and consistent, you know, and on point. So different voices doesn't mean scattered messaging and confusing talking points. Everyone is kind of, you know, singing the same song, you know, it's just in different tempos or with a different flavor. I love that you said that. And I would also say one of my big, big bandwagons and it's probably because of where I live in the Southwest, and that is to have people with different language skills. Now, if you are serving a Latinx population, you want folks to be able to communicate in Spanish. If you're working with, you know, tribal nations, you need tribal language representation. I mean, there's all these and we see it time and time again where that's not happening. So anyway, well, cool. I'm I suspect we will get that question again. But, you know, it's I liked what you had to say. OK, let's go to our next question that comes to us from Marisol in Fort Worth, Texas. She writes, I'm working on budgets and have been tasked with setting fundraising goals. What is the average percentage increase of a nonprofit fundraising goal that is recommended? That's a good question, because a lot of times we're like, oh, we're going to double our, you know, I hear these like crazy things from people. And I'm always like, whoa, whoa, whoa, well, pull back there. You know, so I will I will preface my response, right? By saying that I'm not a CPA. I'm not a financial guru. I can share with you, based on my experience from leading organizations, the considerations that I make when planning a budget. OK, so I think that that's probably the best way for me for me to frame it. If I were going to if I were to say, you know, just throw out an average percentage of, you know, 20 percent would probably be would be probably the number I would just kind of throw out there if you want to be to throw out what I think is a safe number in terms of increase. Again, there are so many factors. It's, you know, what are the resources, you know, the staffing to support? You know, all of that goes into it. What does your strategic plan or your future plan dictate that the budget look like? Does your does your plan in the next fiscal year support opening of a new location, expansion of a program, deeper research? And so, of course, your fundraising goals are going to need to support those enhancements again, whether it's in the brick and mortar, the programming or the research. So those are those are just some. There are many more. But I think, you know, just some of the considerations that I take when I'm looking at planning what the fundraising goals needed to look like for the organizations that that I was leading. Now, are you a believer in like the like good, better, best kind of thing where you would have three different layers of goals? Like this is our minimum. This is like our medium. And this is like we've blown it out of the water. Or do you feel like it's really just have one goal and work towards it? That that's my that's my style. There may even be documentation to support that that's not the best, the best way to go about it. But that's that's the style that I have used and used successfully. There's no gray space there, you know, there's and it's very it's very specific. Yeah, this is the goal, but it's not just this is the goal. It's it's this is the goal. And here's the operating plan to support that goal. And here are the benchmarks to measure performance to that goal, right? So it's it's it's it's very specific, but everything behind it that supports that is very specific as well. So it's not, you know, well, I hope we get here or or if we get here, it's the we're getting here. And here, here's what we're doing to get here. So that, you know, that that may sound a little too optimistic and and all of that. But that is that's how I have managed budgets. You know, I really like what you had to say about that in almost like a framework mentality, because one of the things I think it's really easy for us to say, OK, seven percent, 20 percent, whatever number, right? But you're right, you've got to back that up and say, how are we marching towards that? How are we supporting it? What's going to work? What's not in and be a lot more intellectual about this, as opposed to just filling out that cell in your Excel spreadsheet? You know, it's it's understanding the market. Yeah, it's it's it's understanding the community again. You know, what what what future need might there not be? And of course, or might there be no one has the crystal ball? I've referenced Stevie Nix and her crystal ball before. No one has, you know, a crystal ball. So, you know, so you you can only plan based on on what you on what you know. But all of those considerations need to go into again into budgeting and knowing the market, what other organizations might be popping up in your area that might serve a portion of the community that you're serving in a similar way. Right. You know, it's it's an interesting thing because think about how so many budgets and so many decisions got totally thrown out with the pandemics coming through. And in some time, in some ways, we did better in others. We did worse and all these cataclysmic things going on. And when I see this question from Marisol, it's almost like, OK, a return to process, a return to what we were doing. And because we've had all this influx of new information and data and experiences, it's OK to be reflective. And it's really important to use your your comments, I think. Where are we and how are we going to get through this? And I'm not implying that that Marisol is is is managing the process in this way. But you also want to make sure that the fundraising budget or goals aren't being set in a silo. Yeah, yeah, because, you know, because the obtainant of those goals, obviously impact every single area of the organization. So so a lot of folks need to have a seat at the table when it when it comes to really formalizing what those goals should look like. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. OK, let's great advice. Let's go to a name withheld in New Orleans, Louisiana. I'm a CEO and have not had a review in the past. This would come from the board chair. But our new board chair does not seem interested in this. I need a review and a salary increase. Can you give me some strategies to achieve this? It's that is a really great question. And and the first thing that I would say to. Any board members that, you know, better in the audience. This is why great talent leaves an organization. Wow. OK, and to show you are right. I mean, just one, right? But this I mean, this is this is one of those. When we talk about 501C3 is the tax data, it's not a business model. This is a clear example of an organization or leadership that isn't leaning into the best practices of running a thriving business and securing and retaining excellent talent. Yeah. And and so that is assuming that name withheld is excellent talent. The board member, the board member might not be doing it because it's not going to be a good review and it's going to be an uncomfortable conversation. And so, you know, so again, we make a lot of assumptions. I think sometimes in the way that we have to respond to these questions, because again, right, if if we're really thinking about all all of the different variables in this, it could be. It's not going to be a good review with the board. The board chair is super nervous and just not comfortable about how to do it. But assuming the the positive, I think some of the strategies might be to point back to the history of the organization. I'm going to make the assumption that in the past, if the board chair performed the annual appraisal, there was something in the bylaws or in the job description for the board chair that directed that activity. So I would, you know, I would turn to that. Forgive me. No. So let me let me stop there so that you can because we've had you talking, talking, talking. So in your experience, which is vast and national, international truly, but you've seen a lot of organizations, you continue to see them. Wouldn't you say that it is standard that the board chair is responsible for the annual review? Is that is that like a fair starting point? Well, I think for the CEO, absolutely. OK, yeah. OK, good. Just to clarify that, that is and I would agree, that is one of the tasks that the board chair takes on. That's a responsibility, you know, so that that that's really an important thing. But it and you and I know that and we know that because we've seen. You know, we know the value of that, but not every organization has to find it. We are still so many organizations where, you know, board members serve in a capacity as board chair and there isn't a job description to help them really understand what the role really means. Right. I love that you said that because if you do align yourself with the job description, which I believe is like a must, then it's in black and white and everybody knows that they're rowing in the same direction. I want to ask you a question along this line for this for this viewer that wrote in, would you suggest to make things easier or or the ability to navigate this that the CEOs say this is what I want and this is what I'm looking for in the job in the review. And it could be like, you know, measurements, salary. I mean, because if you're just like waiting for a board chair, who's not paid and probably dealing with a lot of other things to come up with all this themselves, you might not get what you need. And I think that that's a really good point. So depending on the relationship, absolutely. OK. You know, I think also. Sending them maybe an example of a previous appraisal. OK. Yeah. Or sending them, pardon me, the template. I think that's a good idea to allow the discussion to be framed up. And I think that's really smart. I think that's a really good idea. Well, like you and like you said, that's proactive. And that helps provide the board chair with the tools that they may need to kind of get over the hurdle. Yeah. Yeah. To get it going and get it, you know, move through. How do you feel about these things being calendarized and in that job description saying, you know, and I'm just making this up. But the first two weeks of every February, this is going to be done or the every other February, every other March. Or do you feel like it should be that specific? And oh. Yeah. OK. Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt, I mean, you know, my recommendation would be, of course, that, you know, performance evaluations would occur, you know, at the end of a fiscal year or the beginning of a new fiscal year. So, you know, using that as kind of a benchmark for the annual. But if you're really. Leading and managing the process in the best possible way. You're not waiting a year to give somebody feedback on their performance. So thank you for checking in with them. If not monthly, at least quarterly on their performance. Yeah. Thank you for saying that. And I I think that's really an important thing to have brought up because that is across the board on how we manage and how we lead and that feedback is critical so that we all know, you know, we're not just waiting for, you know, a three o'clock meeting on a Friday, wondering if we're going to, you know, be leaving the office crying, right? It's just not that's just not the way to be doing things. OK, Tony Bell, you are my hero. I always love when I get to hear from you. If for those of you who've been watching us and Tony, you might notice that he's a different title. Tony's gotten a promotion and he's now the senior director or relationship center at National University's fundraising academy. You know, I I just love your energy. I love the things that you have to say. Jared and I have said this privately and publicly. You know, if we had had this, I know my community would be better if I had fundraising academy 30 years ago. I know my community would be better because I would have raised more money as a volunteer community leader. I mean, I just know that I left money on the table. And so thank you for bringing your wisdom and your knowledge to our sector. It's it's so important. And I think you make our community stronger and better in a way you will never know. Well, that's that that's super kind. And, you know, and I just have the, you know, the honor of of being one of the many voices of this curriculum and the concept of cause selling. And, you know, I'm not the architect of the concept or the right or the writer of the curriculum, but I sure am passionate about about what it can do for the sector and truly believe in it. And it just really is an honor to, like I said, be one of the many voices of cause selling and to do whatever I can to help motivate and support professional development for fundraisers at all levels within the nonprofit sector. And it's always an honor to be here and and be part of a nonprofit show with Julia. So thank you. Oh, my gosh. Well, we love it and it's super fun, but it's really important. So I want to say thank you so much, Tony. It's just like an amazing thing. And again, we also want to thank our presenting sponsors, Bloomerang, Your Part-Time Controller, Fundraising Academy, Nonprofit Nerd, American Nonprofit Academy, Staffing Boutique and Nonprofit Thought Leader. Without them, we would not be here with these amazing episodes, which were quickly coming up, as I mentioned, on our 600 episode, which is an amazing thing. As we end every episode, we want to remind ourselves and our viewers, stay well so you can do well.