 Hi, would you like to introduce yourself for us? Yeah, I'm Jay Chatterjee Dean of College of Design Architecture Art and Planning I was Dean here since from 1981 to 2001 Nice, so what are you passionate about architecture? Yep So do you know why you wanted to teach or serve at the University? It was really much more of a coincidence. I had graduated from Harvard and One of my classmates were here They wanted to hire me and this was 1967 So Thought I'll join University of Cincinnati Okay, nice So What did you what did you hope that like students took away from your classes? most importantly Take over the same type of passion about architecture that I felt all my life Okay You said you were You said you were Dean right? First join the assistant professor in 1967. Okay. I was appointed Dean in 1981 Okay, and then I design I still taught in 2010 When I retire So you said you came here as an assistant professor in 1967 67, okay, so what was like the hiring process when you came here? It was Pretty unusually simple compared to now. It's very complex down here to follow all kinds of rules, which is good but at that time it was almost as some simple as I told you my colleague from Harvard knew me and Then what they were looking for and I seem to fit the bill Basically, they brought me here and spend some time with my would be colleagues, etc. then went back to Boston and Decided I'll come here Okay, so now of course you see having been in for 20 years. I know now it's a way more complicated Yeah, can't just do that Yes, they have like a perspective like both sides Like back then that like now, okay So What were your relationship like among your colleagues? Very different from what it is now. There were a lot more Cummings and goings in each family homes or getting together off time from classes, etc Usually there would be some gathering at one of my colleagues place, etc That's not quite so now as well as I can gather Okay, so Next question is since you said you were your dean and you were like in a position of like authority How did you feel about like an? Interact with like the administration Like before when you were just like an assistant professor and then after when you were like Oh my goodness, that's a very very Different with different presidents When I was either assistant professor or associate professor this was the second person Who was president appointed? Warren Benes and I still was a fairly junior faculty member, but somehow He saw something in me and he always had a inner circle and I was very fortunate to be able to join that so All my life almost he served as a mentor. So it was very different So was the next president Henry Winkler. The third president was Joe Stegger Who I not third that's the fourth president and With whom I work as a dean for 20 years Bringing major architects to UC campus, which was I feel one of my major accomplishments here to change the campus completely design of the campus and buildings Yeah, definitely So, um, I know that you previously said that the you brought like you were very influential into the change of campus and Could you like talk about like the process of that and like what you had like in mind like kind of your vision for it Sure, what typically would happen in those days deans are a lot of Power to make the decision. I approach the deans with presidents Permission and suggestions and then I would Usually there would be a search committee I chaired most of the search committees and They will Well, I would make a presentation to the committee about let's say 30 or so architects work Then we'll boil it down to three or four or five and then I'll try to get the major decision-makers to go with me Do their work sites? To see their work in their office and Come back then Maybe even narrow it down to three or so and bring them to the campus they will give a lecture also during that time and From that we would make a selection Usually I also worked out with the state Because at that time the state did not allow outside architects to work. I Wanted to bring major thinkers of architecture to here So I was able to work out a system in which Local architects and national architects will Cooperate as a group as a partners Local architect would be architect of record in architecture. They're like three stages One is called preliminary design Now it's called design development and another school construction drawings construction drawing is Almost sixty sixty five percent of the work the way we had set up the national architect would be responsible for Preliminary design and design development and local architect would be responsible for construction drawings This is separate from anything. I had to accomplish that before This whole process would get started including this was the first building Eisenman's building in death first one and Basically that that was the process the state architect will give Half a dozen name I Will provide another half a dozen name and then we'll make up a group from that Okay. All right, so Yeah, I want to like delve deeper into like the whole process of like the transformation of campus because I find that like really fascinating Could you like maybe talk about like Like each of the different like buildings and designs and stuff that you you did for a campus when you like transformed it and we're like Well, there's almost a dozen buildings. Yeah Main thing about this building was to provide you know, it's very Long story and it will take much more than an hour. This is looking like almost my life's work So yeah, it will take much more time. But then the main Idea in here was to develop an addition Which it doesn't mimic the whole building because all the construction method and materials, etc. Have changed But yet evokes some memories and the architects makes many moves such as bringing part of the old buildings to the new and new buildings to the old and It's more complex than that But one of the major features of this building how it was accommodated to the old building The next one was Michael Graves building Who was one of our graduate to which is the engineering research Center ERC? engineering college which is Michael was a great architect who Developed a movement. He was part of a movement and certainly was one of the leaders of post-modern movement in architecture so His moves were like bringing classical forms To present context and that's what that building reflects It also sits on the symbolically at the apex point of University Avenue coming down and then change levels because Our campus is very healing. Yeah, and it provided the transition about two levels up from there And I can go on but there's a generally What was thought yeah, that's fascinating and we also simultaneously hired an urban designer landscape architect Who did the plans for the whole University? Okay, so this was going on simultaneously? I also chaired the committee which brought this guy Okay, George hard ribs here So while like you were while they're doing like the buildings and stuff You had someone else at the same time doing like the the design of the campus like itself Overall design of the campus and we were able to then specify What type of building is going where and what we are trying to accomplish with that? Just like taking that as an example Michael Graves building had to Provide the focal point of the University Avenue Yeah, ending there so we had ideas like that which was specified before Jerry speaking we specified the heights. Yeah, and the bulk Without designing it designing fell on the architect. Oh, okay. So you had like a free like Like vision of like yes, okay before and then after that you went in there and like designed That's cool interesting So If anything of this is of interest, I think When I was preparing For the new building as a dean and hiring Peter Eisenman at that time The college also had to reflect just before that. I had completely reorganized the college Into what's known as D.A.A.P. Now. It was not like that We had like 11 and 12 departments. I grouped them around design Architecture art and planning and in planning there were two or three other departments outside They were transferred to D.A.A.P Even the letter P was added So it needed a whole reorganization of the college To move better able to respond to the next century And another very interesting work I did Those two certainly very important work in my life. Yeah, and the other one when I first arrived in 67 at that time 1966 it was the famous urban riot Cincinnati was deeply affected by it and The community and the city hall did not get along did not talk to each other So at that time West End and Queensgate too was being developed And they came to University to see if University would do the plan and I was asked to join in as a co-director of the project so I worked on the Queensgate to develop and plan That was in 1968 It's just like a year after you came in Wow, so you'd say like your three products achievements would be like the design of the campus the organization of College of the college Reorganization, yeah, and then the Queens Queensgate to development and just in general participation in cities. I was a long-term member Long-time member of what's called urban design review board, which reviewed every building that went into the center city Historic preservation board, so I worked with city for a long time, but that was a very specific project the it was very difficult project because Practically Myself and my colleague is going into meeting with the neighborhood In the churches, etc. Then coming back and meeting with the city planners lots of the city hall city manager and others And trying to bring them together to agree to a plan which eventually we did And it was very volatile. So that was the Most difficult aspects of the work. Yeah, just getting people to just come together and agree Mm-hmm So so you said you were like very involved in the city. Is there a way that you see like How the university has influenced the city of Cincinnati? Yes, I mean I also did very similar approaches to for example downtown. Mm-hmm. I was a ha ha deed I was involved in Bringing Zaha had it to Cincinnati to the Contemporary Arts Center. I But says our telly To do the work in and off-center downtown Many other that's hardly any major buildings over the last 30 years or so Where I didn't have some say or other To the urban design debut board Wow That's really cool Um Yeah, I really like what like I think this is all like really fascinating to me Like I think I've talked to other people's or in other interviews before and then I think I like how like the university now Like you can't there's like no cars that can really drive on it Like before was it like was there roads that you could like drive on and then we had to change that and the redesigned Was one of the plan Streets crisscrossed all over the place and it looked like a You wouldn't believe it. It really looked like a little commuter college really our branch college or something like that where People mainly came by bus Students mm-hmm, and they just left and it was completely empty after six o'clock I was a very different kind of environment we tried to create an environment where students would stay and have food places Entertainment places etc. So that played a big role in the redesign as well as redesign of the Neighborhood in the uptown neighborhood over there so that the food and other things are all developing there Yeah, and as well as the students and developing so we stopped all the highways going through the Campus created garages at the edges and they had to park and then walk walk it It was a very deliberate plan to do that. Wow. Yeah, that is that's crazy now. I think about I can see like they're all shut down Yeah, yeah, that's crazy That's amazing Yeah, like the campus is beautiful like I remember when I first came here. Yeah, I thought to design it is beautiful, but yeah If you're able to see old pictures you see or if you anybody who graduated in 70s or 60s. Yeah, you'll find out Didn't think of it very highly actually they ate again. Really. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's like the opposite Because I've like looked at old pictures and I've tried to see like or everything was like in relation to it is now It's crazy like the amount of change and the transformation that campus has gone through. That's crazy so I Guess the next question would be How since throughout your years Working here at UC. How have you seen like students change? Again, oh this students come by generations. It's very very different in different times 60s and 70s students were very social conscious very dedicated and They all wanted to be involved with planning and development and With the city etc Then I would say These are somewhat over generalizations, but That the only way I can respond to these things 80s were very different 80s were almost like Me generations what can you do for me and it was very centered on making money and Very different approach it is an approach, but it's very different from The 60s and 70s group 90s again The country was very very Steady wealthy More satisfaction came from the Huge urban development was taking place everywhere a lot of suburban development was taking place So they were also quite dedicated in a different way a little difficult for me to talk about after 2010 because I Really did you this summer I did teach a course But then not regularly So I don't have that direct contact so But my answer to your question would be sort of seem like it almost varied by generations So like each generation was different a different I think it is also involved with what's happening with the world what's happening with the Situation if anything today's generation is very conscious about ecology Environmental aspects of the world So I know that in previous interviews I've had I think I interviewed Oscar Fernandez before and He was he was like a more recent Retired or he retired more recently here. He talked about like in Talking about like that diversity of the students They said that it was like very culturally rich and diverse here when he was teaching I was wondering if if it like if the diversity of students have changed throughout like the years and has gotten more like diverse As my goodness is really when I first came Remember when the first woman appeared on architecture class first woman ever No question of even making blacks at that time. Yeah That was a curiosity. I mean the fact used to didn't know quite how to deal with one woman in the class but I I've seen from Basically what it is to be Midwest and solid Some farm families and others but mostly white Americans to not mostly all of them. Yeah, and then there was a Little bit at a time more foreign students were coming in more African Americans coming in more woman Joining I've seen from there to now architecture has more woman Then guys really yeah, at least one year it was a year was okay. Yeah Those those like recently. Yeah, okay. That's interesting So I guess next How is the faculty change like over time throughout the years It changes but it also changes by program different programs different kind of demands Again, it moves seems to be like decades or something once if I could remember there And if they have a tenure, they usually tend to have courier like mine That hasn't changed very much if people come here and then they decide to stay here They usually finish up the career there, which is very rare in today's world Because outside world is constantly moving. I see through my children. It's a They change job at the drop of your hat. Yeah, but this is Academic world is somewhat more stable Sometimes some people criticize too stable In terms of hire So, yeah, it also Changes and Just like the students I talked about. Yeah, the emphasis changes today hardly anyone comes in That are not interested in ecology area Then When I first joined maybe even a bachelor's of architecture was enough to teach No longer you have to have a master's and now you have to have a PhD To teach. Yeah, so that's another level of change that has taken place as we are moving through A lot of changes has taken place during the time. I was here. I bet 50s Backwards well far more stable And there was this image of American society that are depicted in movies movies are very interesting when they depict particular type of Culture in society and life pattern, etc. But 50s up to 50s Well war was very disruptive. Mm-hmm, and then 50 day Americans Seems to me saw desperately quietness stability family, etc. And Then in 60s everything changed Everything changed in 60s with Vietnam war. Mm-hmm. You just changed like Yeah, it just changed like everybody's mindset in the war. Oh Turn one the folk song came into its being People like Joan Baez and others were singing right at Harvard Square at that time as a student. I could go see them in a small little cafes and Bob Dylan was singing and They're having tremendous influence to their music, etc. Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah You said that you've seen like throughout your years out here. You've seen a lot of changes I think that's like what we're really like looking forward or looking for in this project is to just like get the your guys' perspective on the changes you witness throughout UC's history and trying to just like record that so we have some like Better history of UC. So I think it's what this project is like really amazing changes have taken place in the Last half of last century. Okay. Yeah from 1950 to 2000 incredible changes is taking place Would you like to maybe like say a Little bit of those changes in the time that we have or talk a little bit more about those Sure, but as I said after World War II With the returning veterans etc when it was possible for them to get veterans grants FDR had made getting mortgage federal mortgage association First provided mortgage, which now very common, but it was started at that time so people Started and then Eisenhower era the whole highway system was introduced The automobile industry was in ascendancy Millions of cars started being produced Detroit in those days dominated the society and People started moving outside creating suburbs and living there, etc Then America got involved with Vietnam War, which Absolute characterism impact majority of the youth Absolutely did not like it felt it was not necessary. There's no point Nothing to do with us What's going on there? So why did Nationwide and Whenever army is committed, of course this big jarring take this one side says oh independence liberty and All of those kind of things and others challenge the values, etc. So the value conflict is very high Mm-hmm So that was one great change then of course when Reagan era was ushered in the 80s Individual efforts became very important to people So Certainly Wall Street ruling Again through movies, yeah, it would be Very interesting to see that I mean Greed was good With the value system that was prevailing in Individuals war third and how individual approaches society. It's very important and it's aggregation of this individual Becks the society That train always was very strong in American system And that prevailed Then of course during Early to 2000s the involvement with Iraq in Afghanistan and It's been too much ongoing things and it's been proven very distraught to the society and Probably found the seeds of very highly divisive society, which I've never seen before So I Guess going back to you see How Have you seen UC's priorities shift throughout like the years that you've been here? Oh, yeah Each president and I've worked with almost like 10 or 11 presidents at a different Agenda One Dennis it was Certainly was very visionary man And to him the leadership How you develop leaders for future was the main kind of emphasis and what from that Then two presidents later Joe Steger Certainly his biggest leg legacy was what I want on that is to change the campus because I Remember he had conducted an alumni and students survey and Number one item came up on that survey as students and alumni did not like is the physical structure of the campus So he felt he needed to do that certainly those two decades were very much emphasized the growth and development of the physical structure And then our next president who was a Woman president Certainly a lot more emphasis was given the differences between the employment situation At UC more women were brought in in Leadership capacity etc. So that was another kind of change that's gone through 60s also in Venice's time Also made a large attempt to do And engage African-Americans To colleges which are non-existent now was created by Dennis that one was called University College And one was called College of Community Services. They're all oriented towards that to bring in More of the community-oriented students and structure that they felt UC should reflect what's outside in the community So that was also a big change Those are the main massive Changes that are taking place So You said the the two colleges that warn Venice Created you said they're like not this now Okay, that was like his attempt to like reach out to the community and Or around Cincinnati and like connect you see to the community. It was basically felt afterwards that they have achieved their goals and Not serving anymore purposes of it because University College was felt people Anyway, it didn't gain respect they felt students felt different from the rest of the campus And Gradually realized that's not the way to do it That students would directly come to DAP or usually used to be on those two colleges and you take the transfers from there Anyway, so there are a lot of reasons that presidents and provost of those time felt And same thing about community services So they were abolished in I would say about 80s early 80s late 70s So, um, I know that you you worked on the main campus part and then there's also the med campus did you have like Any did you have like any influence on the matter? Yeah, one of the major building there is Frank Gehry's building of molecular biology building that they Carbillinia building yeah, that's certainly is one of he became words Most of the people we brought in was not that well known and now they're all very very well known worldwide so we We selected very well and Frank He did the Bilbao in Spain and it Huge impact and he is probably arguably the best known architect in the world He got a Pritzker Prize as the Zaha had he just at the CAC got Pritzker Prize Tom Mayn who did the rec center Not Pritzker Prize Pritzker Prize. He's almost like Nobel Prize in architecture. Okay, this is the equivalent like version You like turned what they just said they weren't really very well known before when you selected them And then they became like famous. They were not totally unknown. Okay, but they're not they're not like Right now they're like worldwide Influencing yeah crazy. They've like gone around the world and like you said in Spain. I think was He's been Bilbao Spain. He did a Museum with Guggenheim in Europe and It was Bilbao was like Spain's young stone, you know what I mean It's it's a rush built out. Yeah, and all of a sudden one building made them worldwide famous And really change the culture of that city So architecture can have tremendous influence That's crazy. It can just Just turn something just boom it right Has you feel like that has happened here in Cincinnati What the like just the a Certain piece of architecture has like changed a certain area of Cincinnati and oh, yeah I mean with that and in fact on the University Certainly during my time architecture became at one point number one program over Harvard It has slipped since then but at that time it was Consistently on top 10 and suddenly a one or two years. They became number one and So the demand of students went up the more creative students were trying to come here Just say it's like a architecture museum here live architecture museum so So much to learn right here. So it attracts a lot of very Good students all over the world I didn't know it was like Above Harvard at one point. Yeah. Wow, that's impressive. That was when you were like Dean So I guess next Where do you see you see going in the future? Very good. The new president is giving a lot of Emphasis on innovation. Mm-hmm. They're developing innovation corridor up there and Why it will go is difficult to say at the moment, but they've just got started Certainly it has a lot of possibilities And we just have to see so Trying to think Do you There's a lot of or there's a couple buildings that have been built Since I've been here as a student Were you like involved in those buildings in the I think it's the Marion Spencer Hall and the new Lidner Linder I was very definitely involved where I may not show me a French architect Which is the many in Spencer? Oh, I don't know. It's the I think it's the new one by Morgan and Siodo or Sioda dorms. It's the glass one over there. That's by I think it's Turner circle Mm-hmm. I think it's called Marion Spencer. That was just built recently. I think Built recently. Yeah, like between the time I've been here We're on that side Jefferson side. Yeah, it's by it's by Jefferson by Turner and the two Twin dorms of Morgan and Sioda the Morgan and Sioda is We have our tap side isn't it? It's it's it's the one that's by MLK and Jefferson Ray. Oh, okay. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, the new dorm. Yeah, the new dorm. That's called Spencer. Is it then? Yeah, I think There used to be three of those dorms. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. We took one down. Uh-huh And now that one has been replaced Okay, so was it like they're in the same spot or is it in the same spot same spot? Yeah Do that look alike, right? Uh-huh But they were terrible. So really we had prepared but it was very costly Repair and at one time they were so bad the one was taken down and That has been revealed differently. It's more brownish building. Yeah, I didn't realize it was That's we're saying because many of Spencer was a good friend of mine. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah That's pretty good So, yeah, that was so you're really involved in new Lidner building Lidner building Okay, and then No, there's some I'm like it was like You said that the buildings They're like before with the with the new I think Marion Spencer Hall the one I'm talking about there It was just you guys just torn down. Was it because it was just too hard to like keep up It was yeah, it was terrible shape. I mean, I had a office at one time on a research project in one of them So you know, I think in the middle one. Yeah, and It's terrible. I mean you could the family living next door on the other side you could hear all the conversation and everything when you were working and It's terrible And it deteriorated very fast. It's almost like like really didn't work so First plan was all three to be taken out. Mm-hmm. We had taken one out Then we found a way To renovate one. Mm-hmm. We liked it so much we renovated to But we did not want to Repeat the same one because it was taken down. Yeah, we wanted it to be a different one. Mm-hmm So different architect was selected to do that Spencer okay But they used to be called three sisters. They were just alike. Oh, so they're like really exactly alike the exact design I had no idea that's not like I like learning about like how they're like different buildings throughout the time Yeah, I know there's one big one that I just recently that had no idea. I think it was called sander hall that was uh, I'm That was taken I think that's taken down. Okay. Yeah, it was terrible building is 22 story. I really And We couldn't reuse it for anything it was dawn, but it was Half of it was men's and half of it was woman's and there were a lot of complaints about that It it really was quite a problematic situation It was in code violation and all kinds of things We did all kinds of studies to see whether it could be reused somehow. Yeah, but it just was not possible so it was taken down the whole thing was It was amazing. They have this group who do that and actually I photographed it Gradually came to me. Yeah. Wow. So you see you're like actually out there when they came Yeah, they allowed me to game go pretty close with my camera so that I can Photograph it. That's cool Is that like one of the the biggest buildings that you guys tore down at the campus? He that was the tallest one now. We're talking about getting this one done. Oh, the crossley. Yeah, that's crazy So where where was sander located on the campus Um After Marion Spencer's building that you're talking about the University Avenue. Yeah, then there's another new dormitory angular kind of dormitory and after that There's a flat building Eating hall or something like that there or maybe it's African-american study center. Oh right there. Yeah, okay It was the same building That's the lower part of the building and there was a tall structure right there 22 storey side. Oh, so the African-american At least it was there for a while. I don't know whether they're still That's what it's called. Oh, okay. Yeah, I think that is what it's called Okay, but that's where that's where the building was. Yes. Okay, so like the building that building is part Was part of the same building. Oh, it was the lower part of the building and the other was a slab that went up straight Okay, so I thought it was just when it came down it just like obliterated everything, but no they managed to preserve like Amazing scientific way they approach it. They're just very surgical That's really interesting well, um We've talked about we've talked over a lot of the questions here um Maybe maybe like last two questions were there like any incidents or events that happened that kind of disappointed you at UC?