 Hello, welcome to Trophy TV. I am joined in the studio by award-winning journalist. Diolch. You are, Joe Thomas, evidence corresponding for the Liverpool. You are just facts. You are an award-winning journalist. Yeah, thank you very much. I'm not lying, am I? You just won an award someday. Yeah, thank you. I'm getting the light stuff out of the way at the introduction, Joe, because obviously... He's mean. Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to get myself out of this coven I've got. Obviously, Joe, the big story, which is that I have to be living under a rock. The last few days to have ignored it is evidence, 10-point deduction found guilty by an independent commission, or found guilty of breaching PSR. The 10 points is the hammer blow, really, I think. I think most of us thought the matter had been an issue, but hoped it might be a suspended sentence, or a fine, or even a squad reduction of two players, which has been used in the past, or a transfer ban for a window. I don't think too many really thought it was going to be the 10 points that haven't been given. What was your initial reaction when that ruling came out? I don't think anybody fought points initially. Then when that story came out, it must be about 10 days or so ago, saying that the Premier League had campaigned for that and pushed for points. I think at that point, we could start to see where the mood music was heading. I think dealing with the club, I think, that they themselves, at that point, probably started to think, wow, this could end up down that route. As a result of that, they needed to mobilise a little bit. Obviously, the extent, the severity of that punishment, it really is unprecedented, obviously, for top-like football. It's unprecedented when you look at the context of punishments that have been handed out for other offences. I haven't been made an example of, because they're the first team to ever end up in this situation. But there is a track record of other clubs getting points deductions, including Portsmouth, nine points for administration. I think some of the shock that's in relation to 10 points given to Efton has to be the fact that, well, administration is, given the impact that it has on your local community, the football and pyramid, obviously the clubs that then don't get paid for transfers, players potentially don't get paid, the contractors, the businesses caught up in the local ecosystem. So, against that backdrop, you'd say that's probably more injurious to the integrity of the Premier League, and yet, ever end up with a more severe sanction. As a result of that, I think that's where some of the shock lies. I really was surprised when I saw 10 points. Not necessarily that it was a points deduction, but I didn't think it would go anywhere near that extent. Absolutely. You're right. Everton could have gone into administration and been better off, which is the most craziest scenario I think that you can come up with. The fact that, like you just said, it affects so many different people on so many levels. People have lost jobs at the football club. I mean, some people have in the football club trying to be more prudent. It's that to let people go where there would have been big job losses. Players wouldn't have been paid. People who were owed money wouldn't have been paid, like you say, clubs with transfers. And that's something that the Premier League supposedly set up this PSR to avoid. It was on the back of Portsmouth and what happened there. But clearly, the thing isn't, I'm saying this, not you, isn't fit for papers. It doesn't work. Else it's done is create a huge gulf within the Premier League. And it doesn't help clubs quite clearly because the Premier League have reportedly been working closely with Everton for two years and have still ended up shopping them so to speak or complaining about what was a payment to do with the stadium and stuff. But in terms of an appeal, because obviously Everton have indicated that, well, they've started the appeal process straight away. Can you, when you look at it, do you see this being reduced? Cos 10 points, just like you said, if administrations like the waste and it would be, I think for most people, how is this even bigger than how the Premier League or an independent commission ruled that this is the worst thing that's ever been done in Premier League history because Everton haven't won trophies off the back of it. They haven't, you know, been in Champions League and enjoyed all of that money. I mean, if you've watched Everton playing the last two years, you won't have seen any sport and advantage whatsoever. But just quickly on the appeal, do you think there's a possibility the point may be reduced? It has to be a chance. I think from the outset, we have to understand that Everton aren't appealing from position within their innocence. You have to admit that they've breached this. They've breached it between them and the Premier League as to how much they've breached it by, but they're not turned around saying no punishment necessarily because we're innocent. So that's important to bear in mind. Where it gets really difficult to try and work out what's going to happen next is the fact and I think it's a legitimate grievance that a lot of people have, including Everton, is that for all the depth and insight that's within that 41-page judgment handed down by the commission, there's no real explanation as to how they reached 10 points. A framework that's put forward by, as I suggested, a framework that was used for the EFL where when we start at six and then you get an extra point for every five million over the threshold you are, which would get to 10 points, but strangely the commission seemed to decline to use that but then come up with the same answer that would have got. But the fact that they don't go into detail explaining how they got there, well, on the one hand, Everton will probably have rounds to appeal there because they say, well, without your workings out, we can't see it. We can't say this is fair. How can you show how you've got there? On the other hand, they might be fully confident that it's a perfectly acceptable sanction and be able to show their workings out to whoever asked, whichever commission asked the question of the commission as to how they got to 10 points. So I think that there must be a reasonable chance of having it reduced, but I don't think it'll get any better than that for Everton. I don't think the nature of the penalty could ever change from deduction to fine or transfer embargo even suspended, because I think that there'll be a willingness, as we've seen from the commission in this case, to deal with this immediately and not have it as something that's hanging in over the future. It's a sport and sanction that happens now. But I think the hope from Everton will be that the mitigating factors that they put forward get treated with a degree of more seriousness, they get a bit more clemency and also they'll think that they have a grievance and the fact that the 10 points isn't really explained and they'll hope to get that reduced and that'll be the best-case scenario, I think. Do you think there might be a situation where it will get reduced but I'm so say it'd be like, I don't know, six points but with four points suspended over this happening again? Or do you not really think that because obviously they've put out, haven't they, now the Premier League, it's clear that the clubs can be done again and they'll be looking at everybody in the same boat now and whoever goes over it will be given this, I think, to be thrown out this six points immediately for failing it. So I haven't been well aware of that, I haven't failed it again, the other six points are coming again down the next season or whatever, do you think there might be the case of a suspended or do you think if it is reduced it probably will just be whatever it's reduced by and you suck it up and see from there? Yeah, it's impossible to say, really. I think all that will matter to Everton will be that if there's a reduction that it comes in immediately and whatever there's a suspended element to it and that's to be dealt with in the future or to be dealt with under other accounts I guess part of it will probably be a case of what everybody who is invested in this, how they see prosecutions going in the future really. They've obviously set a precedent, they've now seen the reaction to that they know what's coming down in terms of the financial picture for lots of different clubs for future seasons obviously in the process of, they'll be soon in the process so I think it will all depend on whether or not the independent commission is happy, when the Premier League is happy with the message that's been sent already do they think it's been hard enough or do they think, oh actually look at the reaction we might have gone a little bit too far so I think there'll be a degree of politics coming into it in PR really I think almost, I think any change to Everton's punishment if there are appeals to have any kind of success will be more of a judgement on how this punishment is being received rather than on the weight of Everton's arguments which they've already heard. Absolutely, I mean I think what it is, you know again like you just said we have to be clear, no one's really sitting there going Everton they're innocent and they've been done innocent you know, what's happened to innocent until proven guilty and all of the, we know that Everton it's there, Everton have gone over the 105 million pound losses so therefore there should be an element of punishment I don't think I think most Evertonians will go okay, we have, we've breached it the club, we all knew that the club wasn't being done in the way that we felt it should have been so it's no surprise really that it's gone over it but it is that severity of the punishment because I'll be honest, I expected the suspended point I think, I really did I didn't see that you know, when you're robbing Marsbyr I didn't get a life sentence for it you know, like I said before 150 million pound over it by spending, you know, buying four players for like 35 million wherever on top of it when people were going shouldn't they really be doing that I'm not blowing it apart then I'd get that but the fact that the figure is you know, 19.5 million at a time when we're building a stadium there's a global pandemic I keep saying it there's a war between Russia and Ukraine it costs us big sponsorship money now you can bat them off and go, well that stuff happens but global pandemic doesn't come around along very often building a stadium it took us 140 years to do what's that fair stadium in the city to build that and obviously a war isn't an occurrence that happens all the time that stops, takes a big chunk of money out of it so those, for me, if you were trying to work alongside a football club if you're the Premier League I think you should have been looking at those scenarios and going, right okay I get it that doesn't happen very often that certainly doesn't happen very often and that really doesn't happen very often so all of these that go in the melting pot has probably made you overspend and especially when the evidence saying rightly or wrongly it pertains to the stadium the tax on the stadium and how money was spent and overspend during that period or is it 6 million a season someone said it equates to 6.5 million a season that doesn't seem like a massive sport an advantage to me in a league where players out of league one can cost 6 million barn nowadays I think that's what's frustrated the football club that these big things have gone on and yet they've come up with the harshest ever penalty so that's why I believe it would be something like a fine and a six point suspended sentence that could be carried over for two to three years for evidence to continue to evidence that they're going in the right way rather than trying to play across the line I think the Premier League would say and they probably have some merit in this and when you're taking all those things into account they'd say that there's already significant allowance that's been allowed for things like the pandemic and also the stadium as well obviously a lot of the stadium costs aren't included within the profit and sustainability calculations and in relation to Covid we've seen that Everton have claimed far more back in Covid losses than any other club in the Premier League and the fact that they've done that and still only breaches by 20 million pounds suggests that the vast majority of those add-backs at the Premier League that Everton have tried to claim for have been approved by the Premier League so they would argue that we are giving you so much leeway and you're still over the limit but the concern for the Premier League starts with a £15 million loss over a three-year period it's at that point that they start to step in and have conversations with the club so £105 million is a hell of a long way over that as well so they're saying we'll give you a £15 million bit of grace and then there's a further £90 million on top of that where we can have conversations with you and it'll stay behind closed doors and it might not be full-on sanctions that are going to come out in public and hit you immediately but you've got to be working with us for having to do that and then still cross the threshold I think that's why they think this is so severe What do you say to people who say well £105 million yet was out of time before inflation was so huge like it is now it's gone up and up and up someone done a calculation saying well if you've done it correctly and if the Premier League were working correctly that figure would have gone up to £240 million which is what it should be because when it was put in we're in a totally different universe than where we were when that figure came in I think what we've got to be careful of a little bit here is that a lot of the argument since Friday is focused on what are essentially financial technicalities specifics of the rules interest on loans and whether or not those loans have gone to the stadium or whether they've gone to working costs that's what a lot of the folks that's what the argument is did that tip ever know of the edge or not that and things like transfer levy and where that went the 4% that ever pay on transfers when they make them when they go to youth development now that's where a lot of the focus has been but we're only argued about those specifics and those handful of million pounds here and there because everyone got so close to the threshold in the first place and there has to be an acceptance and I think I think there's an acceptance from Everton fans and it frustrates me because I don't think the fans of other clubs when they're engaged and what about when criticising Everton fans for their frustration here is I think that there's an acceptance from Everton fans this is a club that hasn't been run particularly well over recent years and what this what this penalty really is it's a judgement and it's quite a damning indictment on the excess of the machinery years the way in which ambitions the dual ambition of building a new stadium and trying to get into Europe were pursued lots and lots of money were spent without really much regard for the complying with the regulations obviously it was trying to get Everton into a place where it's having success and then the success will pay backwards and obviously we know the sport performance went backwards rather than forwards that's one of the reasons Everton got into trouble so I think it's still really important to bear in mind that Everton are in this position because essentially they made themselves vulnerable by not following the rules and by engaging what was effectively some risky financial practices over recent years because they got too ambitious they flew too close to the sun I do however think that like what you said there it is clear that Everton have been hit by a number of unforeseen and unpredictable circumstances this is a unique period that Everton have been at their most vulnerable in not only has this happened at the time when Everton finally came into bit of money and tried to spend it which made Everton more vulnerable that could have happened at any time could have happened when Chelsea were trying to do the same thing on Man City it happened when Everton did it but a lot of those issues that have made things particularly difficult for Everton it just had absolutely no forewarning of and couldn't really predict and I know that there's an argument within the commission and from the Premier League that a lot of these things are market forces to be aware of but when you look in the context of Everton and breach this the cap as high as it is by 19.5 million pounds they didn't need absolutely everything to go to plan to be compliant with the rules they just needed one of these things they just needed which I was going to go for 80 million not 60 million because as they hoped they would do they needed to be compliant they just needed obviously Russia and the invasion of Ukraine well initially obviously the commission said they didn't see the documents to say this but there was suggestions from Everton that they were on a particularly lucrative contract with USM for stadium naming right at that point but that had gone, they had done alright it's only really the sale of one more player that has cost them so on the one hand actually on the one hand it's bizarre given how much Everton have had to work with that they've got so close to actually being compliant with the rules and the extent of credit and mitigations is there for that but I do think fundamentally we have to also recognise only without the self-imposition because it it went so far over the line in the first place and that's conversation that obviously we've had many a time during the course of this calendar year on here already so but bearing all that in mind where did 10 points come from saying all of that and all the conversations that we had is that I think it's a perfectly legitimate grievance of Everton to go alright that we're guilty we deserve punishment but 10 points like what? You know what you're right because I'm speaking here and going well yeah we were 19 and a half months but that is allowing the football club to lose £35 million a year which it should never be that shouldn't be the safety net which you wear he should be trying to create profit it happens sometimes but we shouldn't be saying that's okay that shouldn't really be the business practice that we're in and hopefully as we move forward and we've kind of evidenced it certainly on the transfer aspect of what we've moved into a better place in the last couple of years we haven't, I mean I keep saying that the net spend over the last five years is evident there from bottom in it and when you're in clue close to gone down we're even lower than them which is bonkers really and what we've spent even though there's a narrative out there from Sense East and the Journalists that evident spend all of this money the reality is when you look at it you don't spend all of that money and in fact the net spend across this year each time I think is only something like £190 million or something like that it's still a lot, don't get me wrong but it's not £700 million which we're consistently told we spend but again so hopefully evident do arrest some of that and it's interesting you trying to work more crude on me because that's the only way the football club's ever going to improve but it is a mad woman you look at it and go 10 well where's the 10 points come from if you're using the Richard Masters scale which is what he wanted in then at least you know where it's come from but for them to dismiss it and go no we're not using that but then do something but even using the Richard Masters scale you can you can round up because £19.5 million, £20 million so the forex the point should really have only been £3 million so there have been nine points so they haven't even done what Richard Masters said so it is a bit of a weird one moving forward then obviously I mean what what have you found Evertonians reactions being and obviously this £30 grand almost raised in all fours £36,000 has seen before towards banners and stuff the United Games going to be tasty isn't it for that fierce game it's going to be intense and I quite like the fact that obviously it's going to be £4.30 kickoff under the lights and live on Sky beamed all over the world I mean if ever ever and wanted Everton fans have got the platform that I'm sure that they want to convey their emotions at this ruling and to do it to a global audience you know this isn't a three o'clock at home all due respect this isn't a three o'clock at home to ball or a way to Burnley you know you've got a small portion of a grand and a couple of banners this is goose in all its glory isn't it like so I mean you know I think that's going to be intense the atmosphere on Sunday and I think that you know I think that the extent the severity of the punishment is galvanised the fan base and you know we know how powerful it can be as a positive force and I think that in terms of the short term I think the immediate impact is that this does create that siege mentality is Everton against the world Sean Dyche will be using that with his players look at all the great work you've done so far this season how it's been undermined by men in suits that's what he'll say and similarly fans in the ground and nearly 40,000 blues will all be there saying this is just the latest example of ever being made an example of instead of other people so I think that will be quite a powerful force to harness where my worry would be is if things don't quite go right on the pitch obviously May night are very, very beatable but they also have some wonderful players like if they turn up and win then they'll never get a couple of suspensions for the next yellow cards for the next games and that move could dispel out where it is where it could hurt sport and performance but to be honest in a very strange way and I don't want to be flippant we've entered an international break with Everton what eight points clear the relegation zone and we're going to leave it to the relegation zone could only happen to Everton but and as I say not trying to be flippant or naive to a certain extent I think Everton as a club almost emerges from this stronger because all of a sudden it makes it far easier for the club fan base to unite as a force against the world which is something that we perhaps haven't been able to see for the past year or so and going back a little bit further that's a very powerful thing and hopefully what we'll do is to spur the players on on the pitch and also get a very powerful message across to the powers that be during Sunday's game and I'm sure after that as well What do you make of the cries for an independent regulator because obviously this is something that's come I think there's a petition out there now demanding all fans trying it not just Evertonians just to try and get clarity on this what was a fantastic sport so I think the Premier League decided to ruin it which that's my personal opinion they've made it worse and worse and worse but there is it, there is a call for an independent regulator and what do you make of people's opinion that this Everton are basically the sacrificial lamb to prove to the government the Premier League don't need an independent regulator that's nothing new that's been put out by quite a few genes that are Everton the sacrificial lamb that I take on it I think it's fair to ask whether in order to coincidence that the Premier League handles out its harshest ever penalty precisely the one time where it looks like it's finally lost the battle whether or not an independent regulator will come in that is it one last throw of the dice I'm not going to say I have a way but when you look at the scenario and the wider backdrop to which this commission has heard its case in you can understand why some people might be willing to push that narrative I'm all for an independent regulator I don't see how it could be a bad thing I think that one of the problems that we have with the current system first and foremost is the consistency we've already discussed 10 points in comparison to nine points of administration we could go back further and I know that fans of these clubs don't like us mentioning it and I'd say it's not relevant but you look at the Super League the breakaway obviously they were trying they were not trying to break away from the Premier League they were trying to break away from the Champions League but by making the top tier of European football a closed shop they would have completely undermined the sport and integrity of the English football pyramid and we look at they got essentially each of them paid three and a half million pounds and at the moment there's no evidence to pay that by the way so when you start looking at the consistency there they're not problematic and I think one of the problems with the Premier League as a regulator of itself is that when you look at the Commission's report it would have you believed that all of this investigation into Weverton is about protecting the sporting integrity of the Premier League but everything the Premier League does it may all be trying to protect the integrity of its competition but it's also trying to protect its own reputation as well and you have a dual you almost have a dual approach there where it's trying to be a fair and independent arbitrator and what's best for its brand as well and what's best for its brand well you know I'd say I know what you're trying to say I'd say it's very helpful that they have some of the biggest sporting clubs in the world continuing to have success I don't think that's particularly controversial I'll say it I've actually never done an interview with Richard Scudum or he was the CEO and talking about an independent regulator but this is a fella who it's out there basically said we can't afford Manchester United to be outside the top four and they've got 15 penalties the following season and things like that so we know what they want to happen it's like anything if you had a business where you went if I do this, this and this we'll create more views and more money and stuff you would do it as a business practice the problem is when it's a competition and that feels really unfair and particularly if you're not part of the ones who they're pushing and you understand why they push them they're the biggest clicks the biggest eyes for them to create the money but when you're one of the other clubs within that it feels unfair it feels like you're getting pushed to the side to help these clubs be better no-one wants that you want a fair competition you want to go into it and think really over the years is that it has taken care of the people who bring the money in for it more so than other clubs you've got it another vote this week where they're voting to give the clubs even more money the teams at the top how can that be fair and I would hope it won't happen because it didn't happen at the last vote when the six were given extra money I would hope the 14 other clubs who aren't part of the six vote against it and say no, no, we all should get an equal share but we'll break into that six and we'll get the money and I think that's what's gone wrong with football but you'd absolutely right the Premier League wants to promote its brand and this is why I guess from an Everton perspective there's an opportunity to damage the brand here in terms of highlight the unfairness of this punishment by the brand on one of its stakeholders one of its members with that Manchester United game you couldn't have probably handpicked a better scenario to make a statement because you've got the biggest club in Welsh football or if not the biggest, the second biggest club in Welsh football Sky and every other channel beaming it worldwide like you said under the lights are four people are generally a little bit more angry anyway at that time and you've got this injustice that Evertonians are feeling like you said, not necessarily because we've been punished because if we broke rules punish us absolutely but it's almost as if like I said before you rob a mars bar and it's your first offence and I give you the life sentence because I want to make a stand and say look how I can bring justice to people and all of this, that's how it feels we've broken rules, it's a first offence as in it's a first offence that's out there and yet we've been given the harshest ever penalty which is mind blowing and we've got and I know the cases are all different but there's two very high profile football clubs who were under investigation another one whose takeover is under investigation but the Premier League have not was said in the House of Commons from Richard Masters the Newcastle investigations on going where's the result to it because I'm not ready but forget about Newcastle but Man City and Chelsea are clearly up City have had 115 charges and Chelsea have owned up to all sorts under investigation and yet every other ones who've been thrown under the bush almost for this punishment and I know a lot of people believe this will be the only time this has ever discharged as well because they'll be taking on two totally different charges those other clubs and will get probably financial punishments or whatever so and that's why a lot of other Tomians are aggrif but if you have got the opportunity to make your voice heard and with nearly 40 grand in the kitty then I'm quite sure it's almost like you couldn't have handpicked a better club to play against it would also feel aggrif that their neighbours haven't been done by the way so we might get a lot of support from Manchester United on the day but being being everywhere across the world it is a good opportunity for Evertonians so at least let people know how they're feeling that's the best, the most diplomatic way I can put it in time for Sunday you did just touch on it before we finish but how do you think Sean obviously you see him every week you get to know him a little bit how do you think he will react to this cos this is obviously from one to a better phrase a kick in the bollocks because Everton have, like you said would be palace it was a greater way when we'd moved all our relegation bodies seeing the thing of the past almost almost I say but how does he re-galvanise the players from this perspective cos all of a sudden the back in the bottom three again don't think you need any help doing that I'll be perfectly honest I think obviously we'll have the press conference later this week and I think we'll very much get a kind of a closed shop on that it'll be doesn't affect the players and things like that but behind closed doors I'm sure that you'll find it quite a powerful tool to help galvanise the players I think really and give them something to fight for and it might be quite interesting because in the way in which Everton season was heading it felt like Everton season was heading to just a nice mid-table stable season the type of season that we've all wanted for so long and what this does is it almost it gives them something to fight for again which they might not have had very soon because if the club had continued in the same trajectory it was doing and those in the bottom three continued well you'd get to a point where you say very early well now I think you'll be trying to use this and harness this and say look it is us against the world you're worth 14 points you'll say I think you're worth 20-21 because I think we know his arguments about earlier on in the season and how underlying performances weren't matched by results and you'll say go out and prove that you're not going to take this line down so I think that that will be a useful thing for him to have his disposal going into a period where it may well have been that there are a few players or the mentality might have been I wouldn't say complacency only for that but it might have been a belief that you know what we're on the table side now so we don't have to worry about what's going on so I don't think there will be any issue on the pitch the only place the only position that worries me I think is in a longer term perspective is that we know that this is still quite a Fredbear squad we know it's still very heavily reliant on players to make the only system that's really got work and that isn't a criticism of the club like I think the job that Kevin Farwell and Sean Dyche have done to kind of get everything on a positive trajectory is very very good they're just dealing with the circumstances in which they can operate at the minute and that is well we can't furnish a squad with lots and lots of players and a plan A, a plan B, a plan C and what they've done for a plan A is incredibly effective my only concern is obviously 8% rate games, lots of very challenging opposition and if you were to see one or two of those clubs in that relegation pitch you start to finally get the house in order which looks like a long way off at Bournemouth would just start to show a few signs of it and weren't to get an immediate they weren't to continue the form that they had going into this international break maybe a couple of players were on full booking so there's going to be a few periods where big players are out suspended they're going to come up against a new opposition and that's my only worry if maybe midway through December or a little bit onwards it goes less about it's us against the world it becomes more about it's the world is against us hopefully it doesn't get to that point hopefully the fans, the club, the plays don't deserve it to get to that point because of the hard work already done and the progress they've already shown they deserve the buffer that they've built up for December so that if they had a couple of bad results they could play very very well and still lose in several of those games coming up in December they deserve to have the cushion they've built up it's been taken away from them but my only concern is if that happens if you end up in a really really grwling December and the table doesn't get better as quickly as you think it would do then going into January after all probably still be operating on a budget whereas you would think Burnley and Bournemouth haven't had relatively recent takeovers might look to spend a little bit more I think Evan do stay up ultimately the question is probably at what point do they stay up this season I think everything suggests they could still do it relatively comfortably but we know that the positive steps as positives have been have been tentative and fragile so far but hopefully they get the opportunity to do what I think has been the club's chief ambition this season and that is get to a point where Kevin Fowell can prepare for a Premier League season from Easter onwards so we can get a head start so almost whatever the budget is going to be isn't as big an issue because they'll be able to start looking at the free transfer market have conversations with players because next summer represents such an incredible opportunity for Everton to overhaul their playing squad probably the first summer that Kevin Fowell can really do that to help build on the progress it looks like has been made I hope that isn't taken away from the club and I think there's a fair argument from the club the nature of this punishment almost means double triple punish because they might lose the opportunity through this point of deduction to plan forward plan for a more sustainable future at the back end of this season and also of course I think it's probably highly likely it will cost them a few places in the league it might be a difference between 13th and 16th or something like that and with every place is £2 million or so of merit payments and when we're talking about £19.5 million over a four year period being the difference of 10 points will £6-7 million in one season is clearly a big thing and that's where they have an argument to say that the same punishment which is aimed to deter clubs from being financially responsible is also holding back clubs that have had difficult finances from moving forward because you're taking away that opportunity from them absolutely it's a very long answer to that question listen there's no quick answers and I'm sure we'll have you on again Joe as we move through this process to it's conclusion and hopefully everything will be given some points back which will aid in those things you've just said make us a little bit more comfortable on what we're doing and obviously a couple of places I get that £4 million quid back over which at the moment is being taken because it does feel like as well as an excess of points they did say we're not giving you any financial things because we've gone there but we've gone from four 15th and to bottom so quite clearly all of those places are a financial punishment as well so hopefully everything do battle and scrap their way out of this not only on the pitch but off the pitch as well and get a punishment that we all have to just take on the tin but one that isn't quite so harsh huge thank you to Joe for coming in keep reading this stuff award winning journalist absolutely brilliant stuff let us know what you think in the comments section below is the points total excessive let us know what you think I'm quite sure there'll be fans of other clubs saying that should there be more whatever there you go hit the like button subscribe if you haven't see you later