 Hi everybody, welcome to the Quick Points Podcast. I'm Pat O'Rourke. I'm the sports editor of the BU News Service. I'm alongside Alex Hirsch once again, and Alex, how about that game on Sunday night? It was depressing watching it at the bar. Got your hopes up. Well, first it went down, then it went up, then it went down. The first drive of the game, right away they scored, this game is going to be a blowout. I thought it could, this might be a blowout. The Patriots figured things out with their offense, facing Wade Phillips' defense. I didn't see it being that way because of the weather. The Broncos do have a good defense, but I thought there was a potential it could be a 30 to 10 game, which obviously it wasn't. It looked that way at the beginning. Brady sliced right through. Was it Gronk with the first touchdown of the game, I believe? Was it Gronk or was it Chandler? No, I believe it was Gronk on that touchdown that he had. It was a good game. It ended up being a good game to actually watch, which many of these Patriots games are normally boring by the second quarter. It actually was a pretty decent game. It was actually a good game. Unfortunately, we didn't get the outcome we wanted, but it had all this energy and real excitement and then Gronk gets hurt and then everyone's deflated. The whole bar was dead silent, except for the five girls that didn't even pay attention to the game and they were still cheering and it was like, oh, Gronk's hurt. So that went on. That looks really ugly. That looks really ugly. They came back. Everyone's excitement was through the air. High fives all around, standard Boston fashion. I wasn't thinking that. When they tied the game, I was just thinking, Gronk's done for the year, so the season's over. They could go 16-0 and they're probably going to lose in the ASC Championship. I never count them out without Brady still there. I think Gronk is one of the players you can't lose, but if Brady's there in this bad league, I think you can still win with Brady. It's possible. The teams are so bad this year. Let's talk about the game. Let's talk about the game. What were some of the things you saw that you liked from this game? I thought that was a really big character game. Obviously, you can't say a character win. Although, I guess it was kind of a win in itself because Gronk wasn't lost because he was healthy. The character they showed, and someone told me this yesterday, I thought I could hold heartily with, was that they showed more character in that loss than they had in anyone to that point of the season. Yeah. You know, Gronk goes down. Maybe the Giants game was also one too. When Gronk went down, you could see that there was a little bit of a shockwave. The team was, to pardon the pun, deflated. Look at the faces. Brady was just like... It was a punch in the gut. He knew his season was over. But for them to come back right away after Gronk gets there, kick the game tying field goal. Hell of a drive. Hell of a drive. Agus Sousy just gets up there and kicks a 55-yard field goal in the snow. It gets a chip shot in the middle of the summer, which is amazing. I'll tell you the one thing I really liked. I know the defense let down towards the end of the game. They gave up some touchdowns. But I loved what I saw out of Logan Ryan. I thought he dominated Demarius. Oh, Logan Ryan was the best player in the field. He was dominating him. And even though Emmanuel Sanders had a pretty solid game, six catches, 113 yards on nine targets, I still liked the way Malcolm Butler played him. I thought Malcolm Butler was all over him. What I've been saying about Butler all season is... He throws great throws and great catches by Emmanuel Sanders that they're sometimes going to catch. And some of those were in zone coverage too, so Butler wasn't necessarily on him. But I thought Butler looked phenomenal. That is the number one corner on the team, on many teams. He's the top five corner in this league right now. And I love what I'm seeing out of him. I loved what I saw out of that secondary as well for the most part. But Logan Ryan and Logan Ryan has been a great surprise for me. And Malcolm Butler has been phenomenal. Well, one thing I'll say about Butler. He said he allowed... What was it? 613 to Sanders? Which isn't technically all him. I mean, there were some zone catches. Yeah, yeah. But he'll give up a big catch like that. This is what I've been saying about him all season. He'll give up a big catch like that. 20-25 yard catch. And he'll come right back. He'll bat down a pass. He'll almost make a pick. He'll pretty much take the receiver out of the game. That's what you want to see out of a number one corner. He's mentally tough. Yeah, exactly. He's a mentally tough player. He's got the tenacity of a number one corner and he's got the attitude of a number one corner and he is a number one corner. You're going to get beat when you're a cornerback. It's natural. It's like closers are going to blow games. Goaltenders are going to allow goals. Cornerbacks are going to get beat. It's about how you respond from getting beat. And he responds as good as I've seen from the best of them. I don't think he's as good as any of those guys, at least yet. But you see what he brings to the table. And man, you can see the potential he has. And I'm really excited for him. That was the one thing. That was the thing that stood out the most to me in that game, though, was the secondary play by Logan Ryan and Malcolm Butler. That is what I really liked from that game. But there's a lot of things I really didn't like in that game that it was a little unnerving. I didn't like what I saw out of Chandler Jones last night. I hate it what I saw out of the receiving court. Mind you, obviously, it wasn't the best. Well, what are you expecting? Well, I expect a little more out of Brandon LaFell. But LaFell was four catches, 36 yards on nine. But is LaFell a number one receiver? I mean, you look at what LaFell did last year. You got to put in. I don't think it matters. Four for nine is not good enough. Regardless of what he put in, that was not good enough. I also don't like... James White is terrible. This kid cannot play. He can't break away from anyone. He catches the ball and he goes down immediately. He runs the ball. He goes straight into the pile. And that's why, obviously, they went with Brandon Bolden in the second half, because James White can't do it. Well, you can see why he's been... Was this his second or third year here? James White or Bolden? James White. Second year. Second year. But you can see why he's been passed over again and again and again. You can see why Dionne Lewis won the job out of camp. You can see why he didn't get much time last year as a rookie. I thought he was a pretty highly touted back coming out of Wisconsin. He wasn't a high draft pick, but he was a pretty highly touted draft pick. Was he a third or fourth round pick? Fourth round pick, but that's what's concerning. It's because we actually need him right now. We need him and Brandon Bolden to combine to fill Dionne Lewis' role. Brandon Bolden's doing a pretty decent job. Four catches, 84 yards. Obviously, 63 of those were on that touchdown yard. But it was four on four targets. And that was what was important. James White, two catches on five targets, only five yards. And he can't run the ball worth a damn. Three carries of one yard. It's just, it's frustrating to see. And that was something I did not like. The other thing, I hated, really hated. And obviously, I wasn't at the game. So I don't know what the weather was like, but I did not like the play calling going into the half and coming out of the half. I hated it. We had the ball two minutes off, three timeouts, and we're just running the ball. This is what's grinding my gears with Josh McDaniels over the years. They just go away from the run. And I understand that, I understand that, you know, you're not, if you're not running the ball effectively, you know, why are you running the ball? But at the same time, you've got to lead in the second half in a game like that. Why are you passing? Run down the clock. Eat up the clock. Yeah, I know Brock Oswiler is not painting manning, but he's, like I said, I thought he's a, he looks pretty good. He was a pretty good quarterback. You have a one touchdown lead going into half with two minutes and three touchdown outs, but you're all you're doing is running. On three straight plays with no timeouts. And you have the best quarterback in the world ever to play in your backfield and you're not even trying to get into field goal range. That bothered me because what is, what is Bill Belichick's thing that he loves to do? He loves to score before the halftime and then score coming out of the halftime. They had that opportunity with three timeouts, two, three timeouts, two minutes left and they didn't do it. And then they come out of the half looking flat with on three and out as well. And they try to run in the ball and they can't run the ball. So I don't, I understand you want to, you know, McDaniels needs to balance the run and the other sorts of the area game and other times of the game. But at this moment, he, all he did was run and it was terrible play calling on second and 10. They're running it with James White or second and 10. They're running it with Brandon Bolden. What are they doing? Why aren't they trying to put this away? Had they tried to put this away, we might not even ever got this point. Maybe we're not trying to throw it in fourth quarter and Rob Gronkowski doesn't get hurt. You never know. Obviously those are, you know, those are what ifs, big what ifs obviously, but why are we not trying to score? That was so frustrating to me. I don't know. What did you think about that? Yeah, man. Well, at the end of the first half, I thought that was, that was pretty bizarre. How they, you know, at least try to get a field goal, make it a two possession game. Exactly. You're 40 yards away. Yeah. The defense hasn't really been able to stop you in the first half. So. Yeah, I thought it was a bad day all along for the offense, but at the same time, you factor in, you know, the weather. I know Brady's been great, you know, in all the stats with Brady in cold weather games, but it's still a cold weather game. It's football, slippery, you know, the conditions aren't great, but they're also extremely sure-handed. I mean, not having Edelman, not having Edelman was a huge, I thought was a huge huge loss. That's a big loss. That changes everything. But you also have to factor in the penalties. The penalties were out of control right now. The ref was atrocious. The referee was atrocious. So let's talk about that for a little bit. All right. There you have it. A huge holding call on Patrick Chung. A huge offensive pass interference call on Rob Gronkowski. He had two of them. The first one, you know, I don't know, but the second one was a huge one, which the Chung one negated a sack, which would have made it, what, 13-18, and then instead made it first and five. The Chung. That was huge. And then Gronkowski's took away, what, took away a big catch, a big, like, 20-yard catch. It was a big 20-yard catch. That would have been a first down. I think the Gronkowski one was worse. Oh, I think the worst one was the holding call on the offense. I forget who it was on, that negated the Keyshawn Martin, like, 45-yard catch. Yeah. That one put us in field goal range right there, too, and a wide-open Keyshawn Martin on this ticky-tacky holding call. That was incredible. I don't remember who that one was on. Do you recall who that one was on? I don't remember. But the refs, these aren't, it's not just our game, but it does seem, and for the most part, I would say, we actually benefit from the majority of those calls. For the most of the season, I'd say we've gotten the better end of the calls. Some of them, yeah. I'd say you have to think that way. Otherwise, we wouldn't have been ten to know going into that game if we were getting the brunt end of all of those calls. The game I remember in particular was the Buffalo game. I thought the first Buffalo game. The Buffalo game had bad ones, but then this game, not only that, but then you have the communication, lack of communication at the end of the game, which, whether, you know, Belichick even said, yes, they got the issue right. If you don't remember what happened, there was an injury timeout with about 27 seconds left, and they took the injury timeout, but according to the rulebook, after the injury timeout is taken, as soon as the ball is set back on the field, the clock continues to run. Belichick wasn't upset about that. Belichick was upset that that wasn't communicated to him. He said, quote. Which he should be. He's perfectly winning his right. Quote, he said, I think the way that it was ruled was right. The communication involving the play and all that probably could have been handled better somehow in the process. So he's right. It should have been ruled better because they didn't know. They were under the impression that it was a timeout, so they took their time. And, you know, luckily it didn't hinder the, you know, they were still able to get the field goal, but you never know. Maybe they would have been able to get a touchdown. We don't know. They might not have been even going for a touchdown, but still, I mean, that was huge. And Tommy Kern made a great and interesting point. I almost say it's a great point, but I'm curious on what your thoughts are on this. The Patriots last year had the deflate scandal, deflating football scandal. And a lot of referees seem to think this is his point, might do. A lot of referees might be feeling out there that the Patriots try to pull on over on them. They cheated the referees. So some people are wondering, do the referees have it out for the Patriots this year? Because of the, they want revenge a little bit on the Patriots. No, I don't think that. Look, I think what I said about the whole root of that deflate-gate scandal was the vast, vast ineptitude in the side of the referees. The referees were who, just the whole process, I think the biggest person, I think the biggest piece of the blame pie to me in that whole deflate-gate nonsense that started the whole thing was Walt Anderson. Know where the footballs are. No, have an idea. If there really are strict guidelines, which apparently, according to the NFL, they're pretty serious about these football deflation, at least inflation, at least they were in that case. I don't know if they ever were before. It never seemed like they were before. Did you know what the levels of PSI required were before? I never even heard of PSI before. Me neither. Never heard of PSI. That was like a semester of grad school physics, I guess. Yeah, and no, I agree. I think the overwhelming blame was on the referees, but does that make the referees a little bit, you know, maybe they want to blow the whistle a little bit more against the Patriots? Maybe they're pissed off. I just don't think they're very good at their jobs. I think that's what it is. I think that's the root of it. I don't think they have any agenda against anyone. I just don't think they're good at their job. And that's why, and the Patriots are not, like I said, the Patriots have benefited from inept refereeing. Like I said earlier, I think, you know, the one I remember in particular was that Buffalo, that second week, that Buffalo game, week two. I was watching that game and, you know, just saying, wow, like the Bills, like there's some ridiculous calls on both sides, but particularly I thought the Bills were getting jobbed. If I were a Bills fan, I'd be pretty mad, right? I'd be pretty upset right now. And so I don't think the refs have it out of the Patriots, or anyway, I just think they suck. Well, and then last week against Buffalo, they had that one, what was the penalty? That was a mistake. The inadvertent whistle. Yeah, the inadvertent whistle. And again, the ref is like, you know, three deep into the Bills bench, you know, like he's watching the, you know, like he's some 12-year-old kid watching the marathon finish. But even Kraft came out and said, you know, we are human. We all make mistakes. But I didn't see, and I thought that was a mistake in the Buffalo game. But it was a crucial mistake that can't happen. You know, honestly, I think people are way over exaggerating that. If the inadvertent whistle hadn't been blown, then the receiver would have been right on. I mean, the corner would have been with Danny Mendoz, so therefore he probably would have been tackled anyways. So he would have been tackled right at the same spot. Yeah, but still it's... It sucks, because it's a what-it. It's a game-changing mistake. I don't think so at all. But it... Well, you're talking, even in that case, that's a first down in the Bills territory. Well, they got the first down as opposed to... They gave it to them. They gave them the first down, and then they gave them a plus 15 yardage. Oh, yeah. I don't think it was a critical mistake at all. They gave them the catch at the spot of the catch, and people were like, well, Danny Mendoz could have ran the whole way. Yeah, he could have ran the whole way, but only he could have ran the whole way because the corner stopped running because of the inadvertent whistle. If there was no inadvertent whistle, the corner's right there with him. We all know Danny Mendoz does not have breakaway speed. So he's probably getting tackled right there. But that was just a mistake. That is a mistake. Humans make mistakes. Last game against the Broncos on Sunday night, I didn't think these were the mistakes. I thought these were just terrible, terrible calls. And I don't think they think they made mistakes. There's a thing where you could just blow the whistle by an accident. I said, we need your mouth. You blow it by an accident. It's like, shoot, I blew the whistle. Did not mean to do that. It was inadvertent. This was, I blew the whistle because he held. Because Patrick Chung held the receiver in the end zone. Terrible call. I blew the whistle because Rob Gronkowski pushed off to get the first down, to get that catch. Awful call. His arm was barely fully extended. He could have gone either way. It should have been just a no call, because you got to let these kids play at some point. And then there was the holding call, which I still can't remember who that was on, that negated the Keyshawn Martin cat, 45-yard bomb catch as well. So I think these are right. I think you're right. I'm sorry. I think this is just bad officiating in those areas. I don't agree with Tommy Kern as well, just to wrap that point up. I don't agree. I don't think that the refs are, I think it's an interesting theory in the world of conspiracy theories. It's interesting. Yeah. And if you want to throw more conspiracies there, that's good. I'm sure there's plenty of ammunition if the refs wanted to be like, yeah, well, they've cheated us so many times, blah, blah, blah. If this was an isolated incident where the refereeing was at least, I wouldn't say good, but at least average. It was just bad against the Patriots. One incident, I would say, but we've been seeing this all year. And for the most part, screwing things up. Exactly. And for the most part, it has benefited the Patriots and not everyone else. I think you're right. It does feel like we've got the refs from the replacement refs though right now, and we don't have the real officiating crew from years ago during the terrible call against the Packers in Seahawks. Well, there's been a lot of refs that have come into the league in the past couple of years. I don't have the exact numbers, but I know there's been a lot of turnovers in terms of the referees. The superstars are still there, the Walt Anderson's and the Ed Hockelies and guys like that. But there's a lot of newer refs from the first, second, third year officiating. I think that has a lot to do with it, that they're coming from somewhere else and kind of similar to the call address. The replacement refs that came in. How much does this hurt the Patriots? Do the Patriots have to change the way they play? Do the Patriots have to, the Patriots are known for going outside the rule, not outside the rule books, but towing on that line of like, is it legal, is it not illegal? If the rest don't know their job, if the rest don't know the job, the Patriots have to err on the side of caution more than on the side of like, let's push the rule book. I don't think they push the rule book. I think they know the rule book. I think they know it better than a lot of refs, a lot of coaches, and even some people who write the rule books. Yeah, but does this change that? Does this change the way the Patriots have to play? No, I don't think so. Because I think it might. I think it has to, they have to be a little bit more cautious. They have to, they can't be, they can't go into the dark, deep dark areas of the rule book because the refs don't know what to do right now. I feel like they, they're just going to blow the whistle. They don't, they have no idea. It's an illegal formation all of a sudden. It's not, but every, it does seem like every week though, the NFL has to be like, we apologize, the refs missed that call. The refs got that call wrong, and it's happening more and more, but I wonder if, does Gronk need to change the way he needs to play? There's six offensive pass interference calls on him this year. That's more than anyone else. Does he need to change the way he plays? But it's, which is really unfair because teams play him physically. That's the only way to play him. So I don't know. I think it might, they might be changing things up and practice a little bit. But, They could be. They could be. But, speaking of practice though, I think they, I think if they need to change the way they play, it's because they're so short-handed right now. At least for the time being. No Edelman. No Gronk for at least the next week or two. No Amondola. Who knows. He should be back. He might be back, but he'll be, you know, if he's not back, you know, so I mean, you're missing some, you're playing with ponies as opposed to horses now. That's the big thing for me. That's why they change the way they play. No Chris Harper anymore. Oh darn yeah. No Chris Harper. Who's going to muff punts now? But, yeah, they're down three receive, oh I'm sorry, they're down four receiving threats. I mean, if you want to count Aaron Dobson in there, he's better than Chris Harper at least. He's the best receiver this week. He could have been. So, and it would have been a nice compliment to have him outside of Brandon LaFell as well. Yeah, LaFell's your top receiver right now. But that's all you've got right now. You've lost Gronk, you've lost Amondola, you've lost Edelman, you've now lost High Tower as well. Collins is still mysteriously inactive. So you're losing players left and right. I don't know if you've lost anyone else though. I think that's, I mean you've lost Deon Lewis. Yeah. But for the most part, that's it. So, these injuries, what do the pitchers do? I mean what, how do you change the way you play? Do you start, do you start thinking postseason? Signed Terrell Owens. What? Signed Terrell Owens. Signed Terrell Owens? Yeah. See, I just, signed Randy Moss. Okay, that's, that was also sarcastic. But I'd signed Randy Moss. A little bit. I'm not sarcastic about signing Randy Moss. That guy could probably still play. Yeah, I don't know. He's three years younger than Terrell Owens probably. Yeah. I wouldn't sign either of them, but I mean, people are talking about LaFell right now. LaFell becomes a big part of the offense. But he's your, he's your best receiver right now. Brandon LaFell who, I don't think he's, certainly not a number one receiver. No. Probably not a number two. He's a good number two. He had a great year last year as the third or fourth option. His third option. Yeah. Third or fourth. But he's, he's all you got right now. Gronk is out for, I'm gonna say, at least two weeks, I'm gonna say. He's, they've already ruled him out for this week. They'll probably be caught, they're gonna be cautious with the guy. Yeah. Don't, don't play with Houston. Yeah. You don't need to play with Houston. You got Amon Dole. I like you Houston. I think of Wes Walker on that carpet ripping himself up. That's a terrible turf. Yeah. So many people blow out their knees there over the years. And then you've got, you got Amon Dole who he should be back and that would be a huge get back for the Patriots. Amon Dole has been looking good. Yeah. Then you've got Hightower who's got a sprained MCL or PCL. MCL. MCL. So he's out, he's out for a couple of weeks now. And you look at what happened with that run defense after he went out. That's a huge, huge loss. Yeah. They started getting gash. It was just for 43 yards before he, so there was less than three yards to carry before he, before he went down. And obviously they, they ripped off those two big runs that was a score that got him back into the game and it was a score that ultimately won them the game. Yeah. No, they, he's his shoes lost and hopefully they get and Jamie Collins back at some point. I mean, at least he was doubtful this week rather than out, out until the game. So I mean, at least that's progress. I'm just happy he's alive. Yeah. I thought he was dead at one point. Is this guy okay? Is he? But hopefully he should be back either next week or this week coming up against the Eagles or next week against the Texans. Yeah. I'm going to go with, he'll be back for one of those. And that's, that's big. I think he's the most dynamic player in that defense. So that, that's huge getting him back. But here's the, here's kind of the silver lining though of the Patriots losing to the Broncos is, let's say the Patriots had won. All right. Then they beat the Eagles, they beat the Texans, they beat the Dolphins and the Jets and they're going into week 17. Oh my God. I'm so happy the 16 and 0 talks over. The 16 and 0 talk is over, which means if they've secured their first round by and the number one seed, they can rest these players and then they get another week after that as well because they got the buy going in the playoffs. So that, do you know how huge that is for this team right now? This is one of the most banged up teams in the league. Now the depth is still there. I'm just happy about it. Fortunately the depth is still there but the stars are just going. I think if they're 15 and 0 and they really need to rest guys, they're going to rest guys. I don't think they're doing that. They're going to throw away a game. I don't think they would. But it doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is they can't do it now. They don't have to even contemplate that. They can go 14 and 2 now for all I care. As long as they get the number one seed, I don't care how many games they lose regardless of the rest of the season. I really don't. It's a good, it's almost good that they lost because not only did they lose but they also won because Gronk's not out for the year. So they won in that aspect. That's what truly matters and they're going to have the option now to hopefully rest players going into the last week. And I think that's huge because that gives them was that two or three weeks of rest which will be huge for Hightower. Huge for Edelman. That's the big get back. Huge for Gronk as well because for all we know if they can win without Gronk you could be looking at they might rest Gronk until this team loses again. It wouldn't be. I mean until the number one seeds in doubt. Or yeah, or until the number one seeds in doubt. Yeah, why not? You might rest them until that happens. So if the Patriots win next week and then they beat the Texans as well it's like why even bring Gronk back until that number one seed is in doubt? Maybe you bring him back. I wouldn't even bring him back for the Jets game in New York. That's a physical, physical game that they always play. I don't want Gronk playing on a bruised knee that's going to feel like he's got a torn ACL every time. So I don't know. I think we caught a big break here by losing and not losing Gronk. I was just happy to see them lose for selfish reasons. I was tired of hearing about the 60 and 0 stuff and I tweeted it after the game. Go Pat's and whoever's playing the Panthers because I just, I hate all the 60 and 0 talk. I hate it more than Don Shuler I think. I really think I do. Well I think it's nice that it's done now. So I mean we'll see what happens. They play Eagles at home this week. Who you got? This week? Yeah. I guess I'll go with the Pats. They're pretty good. Pretty good. I think they're pretty good especially if Mark Sanchez is playing. Mark Sanchez has never played well against the Patriots. The former USC quarterback versus the future, and the future USC coach. Yeah. So we'll see what happens. I got the Patriots winning this week too. That's all we got for Quick Points this week. Make sure you tune in at the end of the week for New Foreign Out with me and alongside Pat O'Rourke, the sports editor for the B&B Service. I'm Alex Hirsch. Have a good week.