 And we are live. Thank you for your patience, everybody in the Zoom room. Welcome. Welcome also to people who are watching us from the live stream. My name is Chantal Bilodeau. I am one of the co-curators of the green rooms. And I'm really happy you're joining us. It's the end of a really full day of conversations. So all our heads are full for those of us who were with us for some of the previous conversations, but we're really looking forward to this one. This is the second day of the green rooms. We started yesterday. Today we have one more session tomorrow and actually a dance party later tonight. The green rooms are produced by English Theatre at the National Arts Centre and presented by Folda in collaboration with the Canada Council for the Arts, the City of Kingston, the National Theatre School and HowlRound Theatre Commons. And before we start, I would like to acknowledge that the green rooms, the mission control for the green rooms is located in Kingston, Ontario, which is the traditional territory of the Anishinaabe and Haudenosaunee and the Huron-Wandat. Kingston is covered by Treaty 57 and the territory was acquired in 1783 in Crawford's purchases. And now I'm so happy to introduce you to MC Playwright and Agitator, Donna Michelle St. Bernard and Playwright and Director Jordan Tannehill who are here to talk about the future. During the conversation, please feel free to use the chat to comment along their way and there will be a formal Q&A section at the end of this conversation. So I'm turning it to you, Donna, Michelle and Jordan. Awesome, thank you Shantel. Thanks people in the real world and people in the virtual world. We were given this deliciously broad question about what is the future? And so with 10 minutes, I have 10 very random reflections on that. The future is now a place that is so strange that I can actually say please clap and I don't even feel a little bit like Jeb Bush. High five me if you get that joke, just drop a five in the chat if you get that joke because I still need feedback, you know, as a performer. Okay, cool. The future is now because the future is how we choose to evolve in this moment in order to meet the coming moment with strength instead of waiting for it to happen, waiting for change to happen and hopefully we can catch up. And I think in this moment, we can all see that in a lot of ways, catching up is not a really good look. I'd get you. When things started to change drastically in everyone's lives at the same time, the biggest question was how can we gather? And then we came up with all this stuff. The question at the center of how can we gather really is how can I be where I'm not? And I think the future is evolving that question now that we found the tools to be in places that were not. Evolving the question into how can I presence others now who I could not presence before? How can I see more of what I've been oblivious to or what I've had excellent reasons not to see? Yeah, that's probably enough about that, whoever knows. My third thought about this. For most of my life, I have randomly said inappropriate meetings and at any given time, where are my rocket boots? By which I mean, why isn't the future here yet? And I've always actually wanted rocket boots, even though that's reckless and I can't be trusted with them, I can't even drive a car. But then this year on Twitter, I heard the word space bra and I may never say rocket boots again. What's a space bra? When can I have one? I'm thinking about the ways that we can expand what we're able to imagine and what we aspire to and as a result, what we are crafting. Ways that we are creating the things that we imagined when we thought we were just kidding, space bra. Creating things that we imagined when we thought we were just kidding or fantasizing is how we got smart homes, which are a trap and a very bad idea. But we can now imagine better things that will be actualized because we imagined them. Someone had to say robot before there was a robot. So somebody out there, say robot and make me a space bra. I'd be ever so grateful. Thank you. I'm very into sci-fi and the next thing I thought about was some sci-fi books that have been reading some contemporary Canadian sci-fi. Probably the first one in this particular thread that I'm thinking of is The Marrow Feeds by Sherry Dimaline. There's an aspect of the premise of the world build in that book that essentially says that there will come a circumstance in which those of us who have been considered extraneous will become needed in some way. And then instead of being valued because we are needed, that need will become a danger to us. It will be hunted for the thing that is needed. And science fiction is so prescient. And I think that the fact that that kind of idea has come up more than once in contemporary fiction makes me wanna think about not only how this moment we're in could emulate that pattern, but also how we can be purposeful about the ways that this moment could not emulate that pattern. So for example, now that we're relying more on technology in different ways, we can choose not to vulture the innovations of the disabled community while perpetuating their exclusion in the spaces where we use their tools or using and learning from organizing strategies of black activists in spaces where black people are not safe, welcome or comfortable or implementing or even just alluding to and talking about structures of indigenous justice while having no relationships with indigenous communities. Those are things we don't have to do. Those are things we can choose to do better. So that we are not takers. Next idea. The future is me. I am so definitely the future that right now Russell Wilson is raising my son and he's doing a really good job. Can you just high five me if you get that joke? Just drop me a five in the chat. I just, I'm just curious who's out there. Oh, shocking. Blow me down. Hi guys, I see you too. The future is finding out what we never needed. What we gave up, what we don't need to get back, what we still don't need but haven't noticed yet. I really thought I needed lattes and I'd still take one, but I'm managing. And so what are the things that I thought I needed that came at someone's expense that cost too much environmentally that I overlooked for my convenience and now that I've learned that I don't need them, how can I not be so quick to go back and how can I expand that into bigger thinking? So how can I move beyond my reusable cup into my not massive and disposable set and then how do we go beyond that? The first time we were touring, Keith Barker's play, The Hours That Remain to the Yukon and we were planning all this freight and all the stuff that the set was made of that we had to buy and move to the next place where the show was and then somebody actually just asked me, why would you fly gravel across the country? Do they have gravel there? Legit never occurred to me. And I know that what I'm telling you is that I'm a fool but that is also a part of this story. I'm a fool and so are you. So, you know, maybe just like, how can I be a little bit less fool tomorrow? How can I be real about why I'm doing things and what the real cost of those things is and visibilize those things to myself? Okay, I'm running out of ideas. Just kidding, I'll never walk. Then I thought about the way that new tools are being standardized. Zoom is one of them. I'm still baffled, but I'm here. I showed up and familiar tools are being phased out. All the games I play are run on shockwave and apparently shockwaves over. Maybe we can start a separate conversation in a safe space about how much that hurts me but people are still gaming. So, okay, that's cool. When everything changed in a way that wasn't natural to me, I had no choice but to adapt and to learn and I'm turning the question to myself about what do I now have to offer other people who still haven't overcome the barriers to access? What do I have to teach or to share that is newly or differently needed? Not that I have this giant wealth of new knowledge that anyone's gonna come to me first for any kind of technological questions, but what are the ways that the tools that I already had fit differently into the shape of what is currently needed? Because you're always needed, we are always needed. And sometimes it's up to us to find the need that shapes what we have to offer. So, I wanna keep my eye on the landscape as that changes, as what is needed changes, be attentive to changing what it is that I offer and what my role is in the conversation, in the action. Yeah, one day it won't be my role to make a lot of noise. What a quiet day that will be. And then I thought that contemplating the future as I do like to do can be an act of escapism, but it can also be an act of map making and that it's not possible to draw a line from point A to point B before you name point B. So, I do think a lot of what people call lip service, probably accurately, we could also reframe as naming point B and we could ask the people who are naming it to start drawing the line. That's a thing. Thought number nine, aesthetic survival. Is it possible to engage with what I'm calling instruments of perfecting the things that make it possible to shape our reality in I guess what I consider a more intrusive way? Is it possible to engage with these instruments and all the ways that we can control the way that we present in a digital world without investing value in perfection? Is it possible for me to stream live on Zoom without lipstick, so far no, but the future will tell us what it holds. I continue to grow as a person. I swear, you can't see it, it's slow. Idea 10, the future is unknown and I wonder how I can stay fluid without ever being watered down. How I can be responsive to change but not blown about by whatever's taking place. And I was talking with some playwrights at Nightwoods right from the hip earlier today about reflecting in this moment on the things that used to be important that still are and what an anchor that can be and to believe and to understand the ways in which those things will continue to be important in the future and how we prepare to bring them into the future in a good and a strong way. Damn, I did so good on time today, y'all. That's my piece, over to you, Jordan. Amazing, thank you so much. Damn, that's awesome. And I think I speak for everyone to say that. I could have listened to like 10 or 20 more. Thank you so much, guys, for tuning in. It's a huge pleasure and honor to be sharing this space with DM. May have lost Jordan. So it gives me huge pleasure to say hello, everybody. Well, we work to get Jordan back. He's, maybe it's the transatlantic crossing in the middle of the night, or maybe it's because he was serious with respect to wanting to spend a bit more time in your thoughts, which I would hardly agree with. Jordan, are you back? Until Jordan's back, I'm wondering, Donna Michelle, if you would be cool with engaging with some questions. I'm the coolest. Yes, okay. So I guess my first question is, what will be good about going live without lipstick? What will be good? Yeah. Oh, I mean, politically, I guess it would signal that I'm not vain and that I'm not preoccupied with my image, but by telling you that I'm letting you know that it's the image of not being preoccupied with my image that's of value to me, but also because God made me perfect and y'all should get to see that. Welcome back, Jordan. Thank you. I wasn't being obnoxious. I was being like humble and intelligent. Welcome back. I'm gonna go out and take it. Sorry guys, that's some UK Wi-Fi for you. So I'm here in London at the moment. It's late, it's 2 a.m. And I'm gonna be talking to you guys about extinction rebellion. And obviously, extinction rebellion has been happening around the world and it's an international movement around climate, when we were speaking specifically around the spring rebellion that occurred last year in London. And some of the reflections and thoughts that I took away from that as I was sort of implicated in various ways in that, just for a little background, the rebellion happened over about 10 days in London. And the city essentially was divided into four quadrants that different activists were responsible for. So activists living in South London, South London, North London, East London and West London. And they were each tasked with claiming or taking over essentially a different site, a public site in the city of London. So South Londoners took over one of the bridge and they wrecked a barricade there and basically shut down the bridge and used it as a protest site for the duration of the protest. North London protesters claimed Oxford Circus, which is for those of you who know London is a very busy intersection. It's a little bit, it's kind of a little bit like Bloor and Young, they shut that down. Those of the activists in the West London took over Parliament Square, which is right outside of Parliament, Big Ben. And, oh, sorry, that was actually East London and then West London took over Marble Arch, which is a site in Hyde Park. And what I'm talking about from theater context, which I found particularly illuminating, I guess, about Extincts Rebellion was the ways in which theatrics and the staging of visuals was a key part of what kept the rebellion in the public eye throughout the 10 days of its duration. The ways in which performative acts or performative gestures were critical to the success of the rebellion. And so some of those performance gestures, I mean, include people literally activists gluing their hands to the pavement outside of Shell Oil Corporation headquarters or gluing themselves to public transit to metro cars, like tube cars, to buses. The theatrics of claiming sites, of iconic sites in the city, so a bridge, a bridge and deploying banners off the sides, the sort of the theatrics of space. And also a use of props. And so one of the iconic images from the rebellion was this huge pink boat that was deployed in the middle of telling us, I'm speaking to a German friend about this. As she said, it's interesting, in the English language, we say staging protest, the idea of staging a protest. And for the first time, it really resonated with me the idea of what it is to stage protest and to consider the theatrical imagery around and the tools that we bring as artists or as makers of performance or live events to bear on these activist conditions. And I think what's become so critical in what was seen as so critical, I think during Extinction Rebellion was how do you create images and incidents that can be captured on video and retweeted 10, 20, 40,000 times? How can you create images that imprint themselves in the minds of a public and become viral? What was interesting to me was as well, so I was implicated in the rebellion. I was on the bridge, on the Waterloo Bridge, helping hold that site. I was eventually arrested and was in solitary confinement for 14 hours and charged and later released. But there's a lot to be said for who was able to put their bodies on the line to be arrested and also even the theatrics of those arrests at the time. The theatrics of people who who are not usually in the line of police engagement, bodies that are not usually arrested and the politics and who, what is it to see a white grandmother being carried away by all fours, by cops? How is that different in the public imagination somehow than who we might otherwise imagine being arrested in these scenarios? I think the confrontation and the relationship between the police and the protesters, there's so much to unpack there. And of course, my experience of arrest and detainment being something altogether different than a lot of other people's experience of that, probably in different times and different scenarios with the police force. Nevertheless, the ways in which exchange of rebellion in order to maintain fidelity of record, filmed and documented every single arrest that occurred. So the police of course are filming there from their end but activists are also filming their own arrests and the ways in which they are also creating a kind of archive of experience should the legal proceedings happen. And there was around the same time, I mean, this is sort of tangential a little bit to the conversation around climate but that same month in April, I was engaged in a direct action, a protest action at the Dorchester Hotel, protesting the ratification of Shreya Law in Brunei which would have seen the stony deaths of homosexuals and adulterers and a number of other categories of sexual crimes in Brunei. And the Brunei Investment Agency owns and operates the Dorchester Collection of Hotels which are a luxury brand of hotels across the world. And three friends of mine and I engaged in a protest action at the hotel during a high team in which we deployed signs and used a megaphone to sort of draw attention to the boycott that was ongoing with the hotel chain. And it was once again for me a sort of, I should say that the video of that incident, we later posted on social media and it went viral and was part of the kind of ongoing efforts to draw attention to the incident and pressure on the Dorchester Hotel Collection which was ultimately successful in that this alternate Brunei did ultimately back down from the passing of the legislation. But it made me think a lot about the ways in which a background again in theater and in staging events was critical to how that worked. The ways in which we sort of planned and rehearsed essentially everything we were going to do and say and the ways in which everything from what we wore to our text to the staging, like what room we chose in the hotel and the fact that the protest itself would have I think been far less effective or certainly far less viral or impactful to watch had the security guards of the hotel and the personal security guards at the various wealthy people who were working there had they not cast themselves essentially as the antagonists in this encounter. They basically descended upon us, grabbed us and began to sort of frog march us out of the hotel with incredible force and sort of try to push us through these revolving doors of the hotel. Had they not kind of cast themselves as the roles in the antagonist, had we been just able to kind of deploy our, say our bit and then walk out peacefully, we may have had a few thousand views and we may have kind of had some traction within the activist community but it would not have gone sort of mega viral the way it did. And I think so much of that comes down to the basic theatrics of the event and that suddenly you have people who are, you have the sort of, this is no longer a kind of, a kind of abstract conflict that's occurring sort of in another part of the world and there's not this kind of disconnect between what we're doing in the hotel versus what's happening over there. There's this kind of embodiment of a luxury brand shutting down and silencing queer voices. It becomes a physical action that occurs and that we can watch. And so sort of maybe think quite a bit about what are the conditions again that create a viral encounter or that create magnified protest. And just kind of getting back to sort of wrap up to I found the images that were for me the most, yeah, just sort of the most stunning or sort of moving I guess of extinction rebellion where again, these individual performative acts of resistance and particularly the incidents of, citizens, everyday citizens. In one case there was a five year old man who glued himself to the top of a train car in London and the ways in which for me, I could kind of read these gestures as like acts of performance art as much as they were kind of acts of protest. For me felt like they were aesthetic gestures. They were emotive gestures and narrative gestures as much as they were kind of these political gestures. So I guess in terms of how this replies to the future, and this is a course specifically speaking about environmental activism in this case, the activism around extinction rebellion in London. I mean, thinking about the tools, I mean, even though our theater feels a little bit like it's in a coma at the moment, the fact that we're sort of just hungering to be back in spaces together publicly. I mean, I have been, of course, involved in Black Lives Matter protests here in London in the past few days. So in that sense, I've been back amongst people but not in a performance context or a theatrical context. And I think until we are thinking critically, how can we use these skill sets that we have? We have tools, we have these immense skill sets about knowing how to stage events, knowing how to kind of create images, striking images, knowing how to kind of communicate layered sociopolitical, like layers of sociopolitical import through an image or through a gesture or through a performative act. And so knowing how to deploy those and knowing how to kind of create a kind of, whether it's through direct action or whether it's through kind of some other means, I think that's, and also how we can use the tools, I guess, of the internet and online to kind of magnify those gestures as well. So those are things I've been thinking about. And it's sort of as much about the present as it is the future. But I guess, yeah, it's one of the things I've been thinking about really in the last year or so is really how can I use those tools as being theater artists to kind of for radical action, essentially. So yeah, thanks. Thank you so much, both of you for taking the stage for a period of time to talk about how you're seeing the future and now from each of your perspectives and with relation to a number of avenues that kind of bring together this point now looking ahead to the future. I have a couple of questions just to kick off and then I would like to ask if anyone does have any questions to put them into the chat or, yeah, put them into the chat or you can also put your hand up if you go to the participants button and I think you can put your hand up that way. However you'd like to do it, please do. So I'd like to start just by asking you, Donna Michelle, first of all, thank you so much for answering that question that I asked when we lost Jordan because it was fun and it was off the cuff but it ended up being a really made me think the answer, so thank you so much for really engaging with it. And I just wanna ask about, you refer to the Meryl Thieves, Cheryl Demmelein's book and you said that hunted for the thing that is needed. And I'm curious about what that means for you now as an artist and as you project to the future. I mean, boy, wow. In this moment at this time on this day today, I guess it means how do I write an anti-racist statement or clean up this mess I made and it doesn't mean, can we look at your script and consider producing it? It means an ongoing pattern of being sucked dry for what other people need and the failure to ask the reciprocal question about what's needed in return. Thank you. And I feel embarrassed for not understanding sort of the depth of what that offer was and so I really appreciate you answering that question. Thanks. You also said that the future is me and then made a joke that I didn't get so I didn't get to do the high five. So I feel like the future is you but I don't see that as humorous. I see that as, yes. So I guess I'm just wondering if I miss something in that or is it just saying like I'm here and the future is what I'm placing myself into the future with. You're giving it so much more credit. It was a joke about a rapper and a football player. You don't need to look any further into it. Okay. All right, it's funny. I appreciate you thinking that things I say have meaning. Well, they do. Some people got it. We got some fives. I know some people. Okay, then I've got one more. And maybe this was here but it really struck me quite deeply and that is you said that you want to be fluid without being watered down and that really struck a chord because it's so hard to know how to be in these constantly shifting times and moments and to be available to what is coming at us but as you say to not be watered down. And I wonder if you have particular things that you gravitate towards in order to help keep that balance in your life. Yeah, I guess your questions are very hard tonight. I look to my collaborators and the people who I trust to check me and my community in the ways that I'm moving differently. So as a rock and a hard place seems to be everything has to go digital now versus theater isn't digital and the validity of that entire spectrum and how those things can be correct in different moments. And so like, I don't want to rush to do digital stuff because Canada Council told me to. I don't work for them. But on the other hand, there's some things I want to do that are digital. Like, oh, can I do that without being a sucker? I went all the way through high school not playing basketball because people kept asking me if I did. That's, you know, so what's the balance of serving what my need is that stems from something before this exact moment? Yeah, how does this come from me? That's, I guess, my centering question. How does the impulse to do this new work come from me as opposed to there's a platform being offered or some other objective? Thank you. Jordan, you, you know, we're deeply involved as you said in Extinction Rebellion and also, I don't know what the name of the action was at the Dorchester Hotel. And also you were involved in a performance in, I can't remember the name of the, which country was it, Hungary? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I did a number of direct actions in Hungary around, well, specifically the Orban government's number of things. I mean, the banny of the study of transgendered issues in post-secondary education and subsequent to that now, the elimination of gender identity at all from any kind of legal recognition. So I read the entirety of Judith Butler's Gender Trouble outside the Hungarian Parliament over eight hours in November of, I guess, 2019. So it's just sort of the various, yeah, trying to find ways to kind of make theater performance action more, I suppose. Well, and I think, you know, part of why I was so excited for the two of you to be in the same Zoom room together anyway was that both of you in your work have, you know, Donna Michelle with the 54ology and sort of taking this massive look at so many different stories, representative of different issues and questions and horror stories in certain places and bringing it under sort of a huge investigation of people and loves and losses and extractions and issues and Jordan in terms of your using the word, words, sort of deploying theatricality. And I'm just thinking, you know, I, it feels to me like the way in which you're conscious about your protests as acts of theater in some respects. And I guess I wonder about how you, there's no question that what you do inspires and is terrifying, but I wonder how you sit with what you're able to do. I have a question around what your capacity as a young white man who can walk into the doorchester to stage that and somebody else who might not be able to and how you, cause I know you do have some thoughts about that and I would love to hear your thoughts about that. Yeah. I mean, it's absolutely sort of, yeah, to acknowledge the privilege that is bestowed upon my body and person and to leverage that for, to use that as a tool or as a weapon against those who are oppressing my friends and loved ones and colleagues and peers and people like myself. And I think, you know, there's all kinds of ways in which yes, like the fact that we could kind of play a kind of like Mayfair drag and like these guys, you know, we could show up in suits and be seated at the doorchester hotel, not that we wouldn't be seated if we were white, but we, but there's something about, I think, the fact that we kind of blend in more to the scenery that kind of like something about that does something to the psychology of watching that video, I think then if we were even, even if we were sort of just like, you know, like, like wearing our kind of normal street punk looks, like even if we were just, you know, kind of our like in our kind of normal queer rave look and we were in that space and if we weren't wearing suits, we weren't kind of, if we weren't kind of coded as being of that kind of sociopolitical milieu, it would have, that protest would have resonated differently. We may not have gotten seated even like, you know, that there's ways in which always kind of layers of access and privilege and enable certain, I guess, capacities for protest. I mean, same thing with extinction rebelling as well. I think one of my critiques of extinction is, you know, it was diverse to an extent, but it was still largely, I think, quite white and quite middle class. And there, you know, it was intersectional in different ways, but not to the extent that it could be or should be. And but there's other kinds of, I guess, things like layers of precarity. I think whenever I'm doing political actions here in whether it's in Hungary or whether it's in the UK, I mean, I'm not a citizen of these countries. And so I am nervous about arrest and deportation. And, you know, my legal status, like, you know, I was very encouraged, I was very encouraged not to be arrested, for instance, in extinction rebelling because I could be denying the ability to live here and work here, which is, you know, not, of course, a risk to my bodily harm, you know, it's not bodily harm, it's not my life, of course, the stakes are lower. But there's ways in which, you know, I'm also trying to kind of measure the amount of risk that I'm able to take based on the precarity of my situation in different ways. And there was a protest I was going to stage actually at the war museum against the paintings of George W. Bush that were exhibited there in September, well, actually exhibited throughout the summer until the fall of last year at the war museum, his paintings of Iraq war veterans. And for sort of various reasons, political reasons and sort of visa reasons, I felt like I couldn't do it. I didn't do it. So there's ways in which sometimes I sort of will plan something and then kind of psych myself out or back myself down from something. And I think we all must make those kind of risk assessments, I guess. So, and I definitely acknowledge that I've had privilege, even the privilege of being an artist who is not employed by an employer. You know, I can, I'm an artist who makes enough money that I can live through my art and I don't have to worry about being fired for my job for these things as well. There's all kinds of ways in which, you know, some people are more better situated in a way or have more security to be able to take those kinds of political risks. Thank you. I was hoping that maybe Don and Michelle might have a question for you and you might be able to talk without me getting in. And then there's a couple of questions from the floor if we have time before we're done. Oh, Don and Michelle, I think you're muted. Thank you so much. In forcing how bad I am at this. I have an observation that I want to share with you, Jordan, because I have a feeling in my body and then I need to just talk about it for a second. I'm sitting with some of the stuff that you're saying and I hear how it's true and logical. But I keep on hearing the way that the public imagination receives differently a white grandma being dragged away. And I want to express to you with love and without describing anything to your intention that when I hear that, I hear myself being imagined out of the public. And I also hear that violence to my body is commonplace and not worthy of mention and redress. I don't think that those are the things you mean, but just I think a lot of well-meaning people talk about the value of their white body and the struggle. And I want to make sure that you know that I'm here hearing that I have less value in my body. And without describing that intention to you, that is uncomfortable for me to listen to. Yeah, I hear that. Thank you, Dan. I appreciate you sharing that. I think I raise that as a critique, I think, of extinction rebellion or I suppose of British media in its representation of these events in the ways in which I think the British media's portrayal of extinction rebellion and its highlighting of white bodies, the problematics of that, the ways in which that's used or deployed for public sympathy in Britain. So I think, I mean, I hear what you're saying and I completely hear that and agree. I think that's the... And I think that has remained an ongoing problematic in reporting actually around climate protests and especially as it exists here in Britain that white bodies are accorded more somehow, or they are seen as the sort of the default for the public or something. And it's like, that's the, that is, I hope that's different than Canada, but I feel like that is a huge problem and a huge kind of violence in the British media from my observation. Well, thanks for hearing that. Yeah. So we are so close to time, which just seems not possible, but there were some questions from the floor and maybe I'll just read three and then maybe a choice to go for one. So one was from the live stream. Do you feel that this is a true moment of change? And if you do, how do you think we can keep this change permanent? So first, how can we give hope in our work as artists and not contribute to the eco-anxiety when we perform on that issue? Also, do you believe we should give hope or press that this issue is important? And then finally, what kind of stories and or narrative gestures do you feel can contribute to the thought shift that's needed for us to make the kind of societal change we have the potential to make at this moment in time? So three massive questions. About a minute. Could you repeat the first one, Sarah? Sure. The first one, do you feel that this is a true moment of change? And if you do, how do you think we can keep this change permanent? Joanne, do you wanna go ahead? I just talked a bunch. If you, yeah, why don't you take a stab at that? Yeah, I mean, I feel like whether it's, I mean, speaking about the climate for sure, I would say that from last year, especially onward, I feel like there did feel like a kind of revolutionary potential that was, like there was something that, there felt like a sea change that had occurred. I think especially amongst, I think a revolution that is beginning with, or is being led by young people, I think is usually a revolution in good hands often. And I think the fact that there was such a huge sort of wellspring of grassroots activism among generations on climate starting, you know, kind of last year, and hopefully continuing to spite the sort of stalling of COVID, I think that, I think enough has changed both in the consciousness of sort of broad public, but also in some policy that I think that that change is permanent and I hope continues for sure. I do feel like, I do sense that there feel like a revolutionary moment that's continuing at this moment, which is exciting, but I hope there have been permanent changes already made. Thanks, Jordan. We've got like a minute. Donna Michelle, if you want to. We've got 20 seconds. Yeah, I think it's a moment of true change because I think every moment is a moment of true change and every moment feels like the biggest change that there ever was to the people who have to contend with the discomfort of the unsettling and sometimes those people were correct and it was in fact the biggest thing ever, but they were gonna think that whether it was or not. I think that whether or not this is a moment of true change, whether or not this is the biggest change there ever is, whether or not any of that, this is the only moment in which you can make change. So what other thing are we waiting for than now? Like this is it, it's now. Thank you both so much. You are two artists that I admire greatly and it's so generous of you both to come and share this time with us and to try to take on a topic like the future. In particular, I think in this moment, there's so many questions and thank you. I can't wait to see what both of you do as we head into the future. You both have given us in Canada and abroad so many things to think about and ways to feel about things. And I look forward to more and more from you both. So this is the official end of our time. I wanna thank all of you here in the Zoom call and all of you on the live stream, Donna Michelle St. Bernard and Jordan Tannehill. Thank you for this late night conversation. And I hope that all of you will stay and dance it out with DJ Cyrus Marcus Ware and we're gonna dance like the earth is watching because the earth is. So thanks a lot. And thank you guys. Thank you both. Thank you so much. Thank you, Jim. Awesome. Thanks, Sarah.