 Good evening everybody welcome back after a lengthy hiatus here of no meetings. I think everybody probably enjoyed the additional time off, but we're Back at it and running again. So first thing to do is call the meeting to order for September 16th, 2019 And then We'll approve the agenda as everybody had a chance to look it over. Are there any changes or additions? Seeing none hearing none Take a motion to approve it, please. I move to approve the agenda as written Second time. Okay. All those in favor say aye Consent agenda items so the minutes of August 5th meeting To appoint a municipal manager as a voting delegate for the Vermont League the city get leaves of cities and towns annual meeting and Third-class liquor license for maxi's restaurant There are a motion to approve the consent agenda As listed make a motion to approve the consent agenda items Second all right Okay, so all those in favor of the consent agenda, please say aye Hi How about the public is there anybody here from the public that wishes to speak at this time Okay Yeah, unless you want to stick around that's the thing I Was gonna say I don't think we'll I think we're gonna buzz through things pretty quick here, so Okay All right next thing on the agenda is to consider an appointment to the conservation Commission and who might that be? Come on up or the microphones right there. I guess Okay Come on up to the table then State your name, please and Tell us why you're interested in joining the crew William big doors my formal name. I go by Billy And I wanted to thank the select board for taking the time today my the commissioners What I I'd like to be a commissioner But I'd like to do is bring some complimentary assets to the Commission Incredible amount of talent now wildlife biologists forestry Dedicated people but I bring a different skill set that I hope I can bring so I moved here part-time in April 2012 just became a full-time resident here in April, so I'm very excited about being here promise my wife and myself I get involved I Am an antitrust lawyer by trade and a national security lawyer, so it's a little odd But over the last few years I've done a lot of work In some environmental issues particularly looking at some economic incentives of limiting incentives to fragmentation Looking at water funds to try to reduce the amount of what incentivize people farmers to use less water And I've gotten more and more interested in the economics of that And so I believe so I'd like to kind of continue that I've been reviewing the literature And over the last couple of years as a part-time resident here and now is full-time I've been volunteering a decent amount of time with the Commission helping with the current draft of the by-laws and the Commission's work in terms of commenting on the by-laws with respect to Either shoots field or wildlife quarters, so I hope I can contribute, but I don't bring a traditional set of you know wildlife biology or something In reference to the water usage here on farmers and there are specific types of farmers that Utilize more water than others and so what we were doing at the time was it was actually within the state of Texas We were trying to help and I'm going to just keep the names off the public record We were trying to help a client actually develop a water fund The idea being was that in this particular jurisdiction Farmers had a limited right to lift water based on land use and water use regulations that To conserve water the way it would work is a water fund would be set up So that if a farmer withdrew less water from their land They would be able to sell their rights like a cap and trade version for water But what would happen to is that the proceeds of the of the trading would be taken by the nonprofit organization And it would retire some of those Assets which means it had water rights that it would not use so the water would stay in the land And then go downstream the farmer. They were also working with Farmer equipment manufacturers to subsidize Equipment sales to the farmers they could borrow against some of their rights So that they could buy new equipment and make some investments in the equipment to further reduce their water needs It turned out it was too small believe it and I was 250 million dollar fund that was too small to go It wasn't economic, but I know that this has been done in Australia before it's an interesting idea And I know the Nature Conservancy does a lot of these things with you know using economic incentives to have people either use there We'll land the right way with different ways use less water Conserve so what I'd love to do is I'd like to think more about how to do that with forest fragmentation See we do about keeping forests all and try to find literature on valuing not just the value of trees because I know There's work on that, but the value of trees as a continuous As a continuous area being more valuable to have a forest than to have you know slots of land and at least in terms of trees not in terms of It's getting into very academics here As a former chair and long-time member of the Conservation Commission, I think you bring a good skill set To the Commission. I think all these different skill sets are really vital to to the Commission And I think having you know always having an attorney. I think is a great, you know asset on on the commission So lots of people don't like having attorneys around well I think I think it adds, you know, if you have a good sense of fairness and You know we'll look at both sides of the Issue I think attorneys can and I Understand having going through estates and having dealt with a lot of attorneys in other modes You know yes people do have different opinions of attorneys, but if you're not obstructionist I think that that adds something to the Commission. So you know What what you said is Pleasing to me How do you feel about the economic scale You said you were in this other venture that you talked about the 50 million dollar. Well, that was in texas That was in texas. Yeah, it was it was it was originally designed to be a 250 million dollar fund And then the economics didn't work on that So I mean the economic scale here is a much smaller crisis I think that there are harder issues with at least forest fragmentation and I don't see anybody here But one of the things I find interesting is when we've been doing some of the regulations is Trading zoning rights is an interesting idea Once you put zoning regulations in place the ability to trade for instance Give away some rights if you're a landowner in let's say in the shoesville You could give away on a permanent easement some of your land rights But you could trade it for somebody who might want to have a little bit more density downtown Stowe actually has a provision in its regulations that talk about that So you try to use different economic incentives and you try to give people assets that they can trade And if you set it up right what you're doing is is you're imposing here You're either imposing a cost on someone Using someone that might fragment a forest or interfere with wildlife habitat Or you're giving them a benefit an opportunity to save money by not Fragmenting or by not inhibiting habitat That's what you're trying to do other than Fragmentation Wildlife corridors, which you have mentioned What other things that you think are key things that are affecting, you know What the conservation of water birds lands? You know, I'm new here. So that's a it's a hard question for me I think the big balance here is trying to figure out How to balance and I think governor scott has done some of this already with vorac if i'm saying that right Try to figure out how to bring some keep the economics growing here at a level Call it a rate That's probably consistent with what we could sustain if it's too rapid people are going to get very upset We're going to overtax the infrastructure and will spiral out of control, but if it's too slow We'll lose people. So I see that balance as being very important here Clean water is a big issue In washington dc We did a lot of I didn't do work on it But definitely a lot of reading on stormwater runoff and I understand it's a big issue here With the friends of a new ski and lake shamp plain It's hard to see that In water very you can see it around here because we have access to the new ski But it's hard to see anything direct at least from a newcomer's standpoint. Thank you All part of our discussion tonight is on winter operations and the use of salt and sand and Maybe some considerations as to how to Reduce that usage to try to lessen the impact of the water systems. Yeah That says I've watched uh, I used There's a tow path that goes between the petomic river A pretty prominent neighborhood in washington dc and and and There's this path through there And after the snow as you can see the water outlets the storm the all the salted water and all the melted snow Just thousands of gallons pouring right into the river And we've had parts of the anacostia river that have been dead for years So there must be some limitation but trying to figure out how to do that It's very difficult, particularly in an area here where transportation is so important You can't I mean you can't have the roads freeze over the economy because people wouldn't be safe So I have to think about it before you just stop putting salt on the roads, right? Well, yeah That's a double-edged sword it's uh, if you if you uh, if you go beyond the limits I think uh People become used to driving like hell there in the winter and don't Become trained to pay attention and slow down and Do the things that they probably should do to be more careful and being a native here, I've seen progression of the salt and sand use over the years that has You know become to the point of ridiculousness Right And there were We were up at the state house there this spring and there were guys from other towns laying into the agency a transportation committee about You know the amounts of salt use and how agreed just it is and So we're gonna have the discussion anyway, you know an economist would want to look at the supply and demand factor So if you start with Just the demand for you know road travel Right, what you what economists want to do is impose greater costs on people Driving during snowy times when you have to sand But I don't know if people travel 10 15 less You could actually reduce your sanding at all right They'd have to be enough to understand how that dynamic works But that's typically the principle you want you if you want to disincentivize people From doing something it's a tax a form of a tax or a penalty or something And I think Politically that's probably a difficult thing to do But that's when that's how you get people to reduce and change your behavior from an economist standpoint You have an equity issue whenever you do that my understanding is that in Some of the carbon tax issues here there are people along you know the eastern part of the state worried that their businesses would just Customers would just go across into new Hampshire and just avoid the tax and lose the business And there's a question of what do you do about equity when you tax people the poor people might pay the most It gets very complicated. So you could talk about the economic issues But as an economist that tell you just put a toll up in the winter and charge them more they'll drive less You get fired Some of this has got to change we talk out of both sides of our mouth We want to be all green and environmentally Come to you and just but nobody's willing to make any sacrifices people don't think that it affects anything I think it's a big problem. Yeah, I drove only went six miles big deal Why does that matter and everybody no one has no one has an effect? No one sees that effect It isn't sitting in their front yard when you put a hundred pounds of salt in the front yard That I think is a big problem. And so people don't really understand the cost I didn't get your name. I'm sorry. I was late. I'm really a big door Oh Well, I was on the conservation commission too and it seems that you do have some good skills Ways from what you explained so far and you do you have a background as a lawyer in DC Okay, thanks I think the conservation commission would be very lucky to have you here unique skillset Thanks I'm looking forward to it. I think it's a good group a little bit. I've done with them so far They're exciting to come in it. It's really good. I'm really I'm really looking forward to it Yeah, it's great that you're jumping on the bandwagon with the crew If there's any more no more questions or Comments I'll take a motion To approve the appointment of bill. Would you say your last name big door big don't vig d or big door D I make a motion to approve Billy big door for the conservation commission for a three-year term Okay, is there a second? I'll second that all right All those in favor, would you say hi? Hi, hi Thank you all very much. Thanks for the time and thanks bill leave you to thank you. Thank you for your service Appreciate it. Thank you Okay, bill you're up next notice of a ward of the peri hill color project is first Yeah, so Karla reached out to you folks a couple weeks ago to talking about not having a meeting And J mcdonald and v trans and We asked if you wanted to Talk about it McDonald was a little bitter on the peri hill culvert project. This is a job that has been Waiting for this is the third summer now since the Problem occurred up there. This is the brook that's right between Upland mowing and peri lee road on On peri hill road just down the hill a little bit from where mike edges lives and You know, we had one of those big Wasn't really a flash flood event, but it was a big gully washer in that culvert which is very large for The brook that normally runs through it Was The water washed it out we've worked with fema it's got a fema number and We actually put a temporary culvert in a couple of years ago While we did what the state required us to do in this project which was Really significant hydraulic study and then go forward from there So we were ready to do this work last year and fema had Basically said it was a 75 thousand dollar project. We had a fema grant for an amount of money And all of the information that we were getting from local contractors was it was going to be significant more than that So we were back and forth with fema. So finally I asked bill woodruff last year Late in the fall to get back with fema and say look, you know, this is And classified it as a small project and Large projects and The procurement process and small projects So I asked bill woodruff to work with fema and say look, you know, we've got this disagreement So how about if you just let us put it out to be a And we'll take the low bidder and if It's more than you think we're going to have to figure out how to do it. So anyway We did invite seven bidders to the to the We solicit bids from seven contractors. It was also generally advertised We got three bids I believe And jay mcdonnell was the low bidder hundred and fifty thousand eight hundred and fifty dollars I don't have the specifications with me in terms of how big the pipe is but it's it's a big pipe And if you're familiar with that brook It's fine 95 percent of the time but it's very flashy and when We get a lot of rain up in the hours head And that segment, you know, middle sex and odd share, yeah It really rises up fast and comes through there pretty heavily So we were all set with mcdonnell to go forward with the project And then the announcement was made by v-trans about mcdonnell and They're cutting corners on some other v-trans jobs eight or ten years ago And v-trans said, you know, we're not going to allow mcdonnell to bid on any more v-trans projects This was all in the news last week of august so I just wanted to make sure that the select board didn't have any issues with that um Decided not to have the meeting a couple weeks ago where we really could have made a a different choice if we wanted to But we worked with FEMA to make sure that FEMA was going to be all right providing us grant money for this job And ultimately they said that They were happy with our bid process. They were happy with the process that we used for design And the hydraulic study so they give him the blessing. So I would just like it in the record that you're at the select board is Is confirming the award of this job to jay mcdonnell Do you know what the range was in terms of the bid prices What the highest one was? I I don't change the next one. I don't I don't have that What kind of oversight of inspection joint construction does the town have as a process? Well, Alex Tuscany. Alex Tuscany is a PE professional engineer civil engineer Had been public works director here for 10 years and then for 35 years before that worked as a PE Webster martin and other Employees And so alec, oh, that's okay Alec, okay, Alex. Okay, are there any implications bill of the States saying that they're Not gonna no, I mean Are good shifting gears to that we can do this all at once but The state issued a press release Indicating their Your investigation It was on August 30th. I believe They I was on vacation They actually included me in a conference call that that day early in the morning to let me know that this was At least From our perspective in terms of the quality of work that is being done on main street We likely could be happier I did ask Jesse Devlin and more importantly Tom Mancini who's the lead Inspector for v-trans on our project and v-trans has six inspectors on site For this project. So it's not one guy trying to run up and down the road. There's There's several inspectors Working every day. So I squarely asked them, you know, is there any indication of any Issues with shortcuts Less than workman like quality work No, no issues at all everything is Going forward just fine The issues that they had before were on bridge projects. This is not a bridge project And as I said, it was a number of years ago now. In fact, the ownership of jay mcdonnell was different At that time So we do have concerns about it because this is a it's a three construction season project and I think From what I understand from v-trans and Frankly is that You know about 60 of their work has been with v-trans. So if v-trans doesn't want to bid then You know, that's that's a big Gap to fill from their perspective but from the perspective of Responsive contractor one who has In my estimation as good if not better than Anyone else public relation skills They are Very responsive to the community. There's not every issue that gets resolved to the satisfaction of folks. There's Concerns being expressed about dust and parts like that And they've responded but the people that are complaining are still complaining But you know, they have Employees that if you're walking down main street, they walk with you to make sure that you don't step in a place It's dangerous. Help you across the road So everything is going well From a public relation standpoint on this job and the work that they've done is is very good So I don't have any issue giving this to Giving this project to them We will watch them not any closer than we would watch anybody else. I think I don't have any hard part Okay, thanks Question there when you talked about the color, uh, do you recall whether the New colored is a steel color or is it a concrete color? No, I believe it's steel As far as concerns about the workmanship. I think this I think in lieu of the Issues that are at hand with j mcdonald the spotlight is Pretty bright on them right now and and I don't believe that they would do anything to Further jeopardize their reputation So I personally don't have an issue with Them doing the project So do you want a motion to yeah, I would just ask for a motion to confirm the Award of the contract to j mcdonald for I just like to say that I think also the fact that the business was sold Since the problem with those two bridges in southern verand is is important and also the town had a good Experience with them building the roundabout So, um, I think that that and that happens since this problem And so I think That has a lot to do with Continued support So then you'll make the motion that's jane, huh? I guess I will I'll make the motion that we approve jane mcdonald for the culvert project Thank you There's a second second the motion mic bards second it any further questions or comments. I'm not going to vote just because I came in late So, okay All right, all those who wish to approve the motion. Please say hi Hi Okay bill consideration outside work by the manager Yeah, this is uh, this is the first for me. Um, and I'm not sure If it's going to go anywhere or even if I wanted to go anywhere at this point Um, I told the gentleman that I would bring it before the board to make sure there was no issues If there weren't I would decide later So anyway, the town of johnson and the village village of johnson incredible Having a murder study and uh, they put out a They had a vote at their town and village meetings. I believe a year ago in the spring of 2018 To have another merger study. They have tried murder in the past just as what a great town and village did several times And they had hoped to get this project going I think early in 2019. What's held them up? I'm not sure So I was uh, I got a phone call from a gentleman by the name of steven fowlbel And he owns a company called stedman hill consulting and You know, he he does You know setting his resume He does this type of consulting for various government agencies. So he called me and He asked me if um I was willing to spend about 20 hours of my time to review his work and to comment on Some of the recommendations that he would make about merger and when we spoke I thought that he had already And awarded the job and I thought that he had actually done most of the work and that I would be doing this And you know, he said this is something that will take a little bit of your time and and You know, I'll be happy to pay you for it. He said, but I don't know what I what I want to You'll have to tell me how much it is If I do this I don't It's going to be outside my normal work hours and I don't want to have to Take the money that he might pay me and then reimburse the town for my time It's if I do it, it's going to be something that I'm doing kind of outside work I don't have an employment agreement with the town. But when I was hired 31 years ago um, you know, I I was Asked by the town if that I were to do anything outside consulting like work that I would inform the board And you know, I think it's reasonable to to To ask your permission to make sure that you don't have any problems with it So when I got back to him, I said, well, I need to talk it over with my select board to make sure they don't have any issues Partly will depend upon when you want my input because You know, I get into budget time. I really don't have time to do this um, so I asked him then, you know how soon before you Before you're ready to have me look at your work and that's when you told me Oh, they haven't even they haven't even awarded the job to any contractor yet. So this guy might not even get the job. So There's this possibility that it doesn't even happen So anyway with with that, I don't have a lot more details than that I just want to see how you feel about it and if there's Any concern at all that you think that I don't have the time So you'd have to have this pretty much wrapped up by the for beginning of december or I mean december I know you get I don't know jane I know we start getting very busy meeting with you on the budget I'll be getting very busy. It's not so much the meetings with you. It's you know, the fact that through The end of december and all of jane right at work seven days here anyway, you know, nice and weekend is getting ready for those meetings So it's going to depend partly upon Well, obviously if he gets the job and then if he does get it when he would would Expect my participation and if it's not going to work for me just in my own way Clearly to say no, but I don't want to You know, leave him a lot more or even think about it if the board Would rather that I don't do it So One quick question and then I guess another Your question There are merger Issue is that similar to I guess the same circumstance that In problems that we had with merger. Do they have a police department that's separating them? Do or I believe they have a police department, but I'm not sure it's the villages and maybe the town I don't I'm not completely familiar I know they have an electric utility in the village, which I've never worked with electric utilities I know you know one of the issues that they have and this is just anecdotal but They have a small electric utility They do they don't generate any power, but they do an awful lot of they do their own line work and and the like So they they have to have lightning and if you know anything about lightning, they're pretty highly paid People they don't have really enough work to keep the number of linemen that they have to have on To cover vacations and and everything else So they end up having the linemen You know shoveling snow and doing a lot of things they could pay a lot less for And that so I think part of the issues are You know, should they sell their electric utility? Should they contract with another utility to do their line work and you know And not have to have their own employees. So they've got some issues that are different than ours, chris, but Like every town and village in vermont that's ever existed when they try to merge there's always some issues that crop up So there's nothing of In water buries history that is of a delicate nature other than you know, maybe some litigation issues that Would be brought into any of this discussion or anything like that No, I don't think I don't think there's anything in it That would put Waterbury at any kind of risk of being exposed to any bad publicity or anything like that And how about yourself just in consideration of you? I mean, I'm sure you're going to make sure that you're fully protected that if Take your advice and then backfires run up that they don't Or yeah, I'll have to I'll have to give consideration to all those things You know, I'm not a I'm not a consultant. So I don't carry professional liability insurance outside of here And if those kind of things Significant issues, you know, I'm not going to do this if it's going to be any kind of Problem for me, you know, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to you know, spend money To to do this for that I haven't decided whether or not I want to do it But before I give a lot more thought to it, I just wanted to make sure If there were questions here or concerns that we have an opportunity today here I see no problem as long as it doesn't interfere with your normal job I think that's the key issue and I I think you've always been very respectful of that So I don't think it's going to be an issue if should you decide to take the job So we don't we don't need to make a motion. I don't think Um select board items I uh, I I do know there's some ring road Folks that we're going to show up around eight. So I don't know if we can do that to the end of the select board items Sure Unless anybody else got the issue with it, okay Next on the list then is roadside brush cutting. Um, I just wanted to bring up a point that It seems as though that the at some point we would like to Have some type of a schedule if it's possible to consider Some roadside brush cutting again, um I bought a new chipper a few years ago purposely to assist in The cutting of and chipping on the brush along the roads and I don't know that it's had too many hours put on it since we purchased it. Um And it's just the road the brush that's growing in on their edges of the roads Starting to become an issue again. Um I know as well as anybody, you know driving the driving the big truck around You can actually if you pay attention when you're driving down the road And look at the tree limbs sticking out into the road You can see the bark peeled off from from where other vehicles or other big trucks have hit them and it's it's It's difficult at times to Driving down the road with a fully loaded truck You know, we've kind of gone over this before and uh You literally got to stay in the middle of the road because if you got on either side where you're supposed to be You would either rip mirrors off or smash a window or Do damage to the truck So that presents a difficulty when you meet somebody on a curve or or a hill Uh and there's no place to go you either got to slam on your brakes and come to a stop until The vehicle passes so you don't wipe your mirrors and And damage the truck, you know in in many spots on the road sides um so Moving forward, I guess I'd like to see some consideration put into Either maybe perhaps if the highway department doesn't have the time for if we have the If we have the additional funding, maybe you could hire somebody to do it for us Do we know what What commitment there is now to doing this work in the last year This year last year, I think I think there's been some of it done When the highway department is addressing other issues along a certain segment of road I do know that the greater operator has Specifically said to me. It's a shame that the amount of brush that he has to Put that $350,000 greater through just a grade the roads because the tree limbs are hanging over so far But other than that, I don't think there's been any designated Time to actually go out and a couple of winners ago I think we attempted to do some of that But maybe you can weigh in on that a little bit more bill We have a machine, but it's there's no prioritization this in terms of like, well, I won't say there's no prioritization The challenge of course is there's Too much of everything that needs to be done. We've got too many ditches that need to be cleaned You know, uh, they're getting ready to To change out uh culvert up on Water Hill Road again way up the top because you know Brains are getting heavier and everything else and that they continue to wash out You know, we've tried to pick up the pace in terms of paving uh, which requires some Brush cutting it requires, you know shoulder work We're trying to do sidewalks. We're trying to do line striping and Crosswalk painting. So it's just it's not that nobody wants to do it. It's just What takes precedence what takes priorities and I don't get into the uh, You know, I don't get into the details of this type of work at my level That's something that you know the highway form and schedules So all I can do and will do is uh, you know, I had her in here today and I drove around with her and showed her some things that were important To me to see get done Some you know potholes in various areas that have been there for a long time Some additional you know marking signs You know stopped down at the sidewalk project on on Butler Street Heard about some sidewalk issues on Randall street. So, you know, we're trying to address the issues as They're all out there and I think all of you understand that You know, we could work for a month or some days on a lot of different issues and not get Get it all done so I will work with Celia and bill woodruff and And talk about this issue and see what we can do um, I think the Coming to the end of summer now when they're trying to make hay on some projects that they really have to do This brush cutting, I'm sure is something that can happen during the winter months When there's not lawn mowing and other landscaping stuff and the like Fishes and everything else. So, uh, we will We'll talk together and we'll try to Push it up the list might just be aware of the fact that I'm not Here necessary complaining about it because I know we're up to our eyeballs It's an issue that I'd like to see if we can least maybe attempt to to deal with Yeah, I didn't mean to offer criticism either in terms of prioritization, but I'm sure they they have The staff has a better sense than we do is to if they're going to do this which roads might need more Don't don't worry about asking questions or saying how come this or that I mean it's it's part of Yeah part of life in the highway department. Well the power company to to their credit did a lot of Brush cutting there for us here just recently. So that lessened the amount that the highway department is going to have to address Can I say can I ask a quick question just surrounding? You know this or maybe something very similar As we talk about classes of roads, do those change the um clearance expectations vertically and Maybe outside of lana travel as you change class. Is there any expectation of a certain amount of clearance? Road to first tree limb No, I think uh, you know the the classes of road are Typically based on the the volume of traffic that goes on those roads. So class one road is A class two road would be like gupto road or the bottom part of blush hill or even union street and stow street, which are material collectors that feed into those class one and State highways or interstate highways and then class three roads are pretty typically everything else and kneeling flats is class three road as is You know Henry Huff road is a class three road and if you look at the Trees that line those roads. It's a very different circumstance. So it really doesn't have anything to do with the class Some some roads are just narrower than others and you know, we've typically got a 50 foot right away We we don't use all the right-of-way in most places People would want us to use the right-of-way A road that is fully 50 feet wide from the Outside of the ditch to the edge of the outside of the ditch And people don't want all the trees cut down in the town highway right away either But that it's it's the issue is really for The larger vehicles and Passenger cars almost everywhere And frankly, that's why we don't get so many complaints because 90% of the people that drive on the roads don't know it's a problem Including me, you know, I mean, I don't think about it all the time When I took a ride with person is truck times. That's what he's talking about. So But anyway, we'll we'll Try to Get some of the areas taken care of over the next few months. So Woodard hill that uh, the same big culvert there at the top Yeah, that's having issues again so We've we've temporarily fixed that but we've they they're preparing to Do that culvert work Put some time into that thing the last time I thought it held up against anything, but The state is the state assisting us in any of that. No Hopefully on on class four roads. We don't get Assistance for that. We get some assistance now from the regional planning commission on these connected Roadways that are connected to waterways So We can use some of the money that you get from the regional planning commission to help with store a lot of roadoff issues to To make some improvements on class four roads if we have to Don't think that one on Woodard hill would qualify for For that money now, doesn't that abut the state forest? And yeah, uh with the logging operations at the state frequency up there. I would thought they would I don't want to say categorically. It's not Chris Okay, so we'll move on to our next item then which is the update on the roadside moor I don't have a lot really to To bring this new to you After the meeting Over the month ago now we talked about roadside mowing Um, when we talked about roadside mowing We need some consideration to Maybe trying to purchase from Fairfield the machine that that we used this year Um, and I expressed not concerned, but we talked about some alternatives and an outright purchase of the machine You could invite some Expressions of dissatisfaction from the public. Why are you buying a machine that costs? You know close to a hundred thousand dollars without having to pull an approval One of the things I did look into is airfields would be willing to lease and five-year lease and When you enter into a lease from a legal perspective, it's not a purchase and you don't need the motor or trooper. We talked a little bit about this with the municipal car several months ago so Fairfields is still using that machine. They've got clients that are using it right through into october, so I have not talked to them in a couple weeks. So you got some information We could lease the machine for five years Uh, with a payment of 20,230 dollars and the first payment would be due on delivery And whether that would be Something that we would want to continue over time I'm sure you could buy the lease out early if you wanted, you know make a lease payment this this fall Take um, take possession of the vehicle and go back to the next year and say We've got to move to that company and buy it. We'll just keep it going and buy it out. I don't know what the cost of that will be yet What would then be willing to lease it? They would be willing to lease it up to seven years But I don't know what the interest rate is on those leases That price was how was that that was a yearly annual price the 20,000 or what was Five years and that's it. So you put in a hundred thousand So a lease typically So you're saying lease to own so at the end of the five years we own it or We pay lease on it for five years and then there's a buyout at the end That would be the least probably a buyout. I think that buying it outright is a better deal. Yeah Um, but it might be worthwhile considering it and I would get some more information The machine isn't available yet, but I can get some more information um I think that It only makes sense to lease if you're concerned that The pushback from the public at town meeting about buying something without Their permission will be problematic You know, you can call a special town meeting if you wanted to And and get a funding to do that We've got some other issues Next month. We'll be talking a little bit about the capital improvement plan Um, both equipment vehicles and Highway infrastructure paving We talked at the beginning of the year about the fire trucks. They're they're no cheaper than they were before So, you know, uh, there are There is consideration that could be given to having a special town meeting if you wanted to You know get that Blessing from the public, but I think you folks made A decision all things being equal that you would prefer to own the roadside more as opposed to Rent it every year the way that we do and then have the ability to use it A lot more often, of course, if you use it a lot more often, it doesn't get driven by a robot That's one less person that we cut right What did we think our annual spend was if do you remember offhand what we were to rent it in the small windows that we were Yeah, I signed the order to So maybe half of what we're talking about potentially if we were to even lease it Anyway, there's no action We talked about it initially I would hate to have a special town meeting, you know the I'm just even thinking of the expense of having a special town meeting, you know I know it's not a lot, but it's another thing on the you know budget Uh, I think it's something that can wait with a potential short term Lease that we could you know potentially then get approved at the next town meeting Well, there's always the possibility to find another machine from another that's another dealer That would be that would be available when The timing is right for us to you know get fuller approval A lot of iron out there on the market right now, so Yeah, totally understand. Nobody says we have to get it from them Um, okay, so I think if we're good on that we'll move on to one of So go ahead and Conservation commission appreciated and noticed the mowing efforts completed by the town highway department this summer They Increased some frequency in a couple places Conservation commission noticed and appreciated the mowing effort and frequency completed by the town highway department this year they Extended their mowing off the road quite a bit more than previous years and there was a second pass done on a lot of places There at the end of june or early july that was That was helpful for a lot of some of the herbaceous invasive plants that conservation commission has been noticing creeping around and owning a machine is gonna improve the highway department's ability to mow at their whim rather than being Anchored by some rental agreement, so a conservation commission would just appreciate any any efforts that would Improve their ability to mow mow as needed. So Very good. Thanks, Alan. Okay. I'm wondering if we ought to flip a coin here, which item we want to go to next When we're in our treatment of the roads may take a few minutes How many more people mark do you suppose will be I tell you I don't know At least two more Yeah, I mean it was on the agenda for 8 20 if folks don't mind waiting for the other folks that might be expecting it to be Later, we were still that early. Okay, then we'll move on to We'll move on to the winter treatment of roads Um as we'd said previously in them in the meeting we were going to have a discussion about the salt and sand use and What possibilities there might be to curb some of the the usage To try to help protect our waterways a little bit more and maybe cut back on the contamination of the roadside soils that I believe are contributing to the growth of these invasives, you know, it's Given the soils a Different different Structure than what's normal for typical typical plants to survive. So the invasives are Called invasives for a reason and they grow of like wildfire and in A lot of these areas so biggest thing is You know our budget's been pretty impacted here last year's salt budget was pretty pretty hammered By the winner that we had And we had a discussion there at one of our prior meetings as to Perhaps why some of the extra salt and sand gets used during just checking the roads Um I've had documentation in the past of sand over sand um it just Didn't make sense as to why some of these roads were being treated when they were quite passable under the conditions that they were in so I don't know if the board has given any thought to this it was Discussed a while back You know the constant assaulting of our roads during the winter is certainly deteriorating our asphalt at a faster rate I know we got to try to keep into consideration the safety of people driving on our roads during the winter conditions and as time goes on the volatility of the Climate during the winter is such that Uh Sometimes the roads are a little icier than we'd like to have them Uh So I don't know what can be done To try to curb some of the usage Anybody got any suggestions? I know that We had talked about possibly some of the flatter ways flatter flatter roadways Being treated with a lot less Salt or no salt at all maybe perhaps sand on the corners and uh in hills and During certain types of snow storms Do people know that snow some of it's drivable some of it's slippery as hell during the colder colder days when uh They're putting trying to put salt on the paved roads the salt doesn't react very well and just turns into slush Makes nothing but slimy roads and that to me is just as dangerous as if you just left them and drove on cold snow roads so anyway uh I'd like to hear some input from some of the other board members I've thought about this a lot and I think It's a big economic issue as well as a safety issue. I do think we have to be prudent For safety for the community members, but I think A lot of it revolves around people going too fast for conditions and Do we have to Be protecting people from from their own speeding. I don't think we do I think uh, if people use prudent driving measures We can use a significant less salt and You know this is otherwise, you know, I think the environmental effects You know are bad But I think the economic effects Or you know, everyone in our community will will respect that and I just think it just It's a little bit of an education of how people need to Re-look at what they're driving. I think as you said chris we probably need to Look at the areas, you know, say the flatter areas in our community Look at less salt there where the hiliar You know places that would get slick and you know a much more You know potentially where someone will run off the road Those are areas that you will have to apply some You know salt You know, I don't know, you know in terms of what other alternatives. I think you're going to see in the future Different alternatives to salt, you know, they're looking at a lot of that on roadways and I think a lot of you know, just because of cost, you know, a lot of communities are running out of salt every year Uh because I think they are applying. I think most communities probably do apply more salt than probably what's what's necessary But I think the community one because on an environmental level would be in favor of less salt but I think Folks, you know in their pocketbook Salt really has a big impact on our budget and I think the combination is something to really look at Less salting of our roads I guess I feel like I need some data. I don't I live just through 100. So I don't have a lot of observations To share But I I don't know how we increased our budget for salt. I guess I'd like I think some kind of analysis would need to be done to adjust this Well salt salt and sand as chris indicated are kind of directly proportional to The winters that you have but it's harder and harder to to figure out Which is a better winter You know, if you have winter that it's always 32 degrees, you know 30 to 34 degrees And you get a lot of precipitation That's kind of the most difficult to handle because some of it falls in snow Some of it falls asleep might fall as freezing rain The slush factor comes in If it's really cold and if it would stay really cold You can plow the roads off and You know The plow shoe is going to keep the blade off the road An inch or Half an inch three quarters of an inch whatever it is And then that will pack down and as you all know if you're driving and it's 10 degrees on snow Snow gives you pretty good traction. It's it's when you're near the freezing mark is when you have the biggest issues Now in 2018 We budgeted $50,000 for salt and $52,000 for sand So that's 102,000 well 52,500 so that's 102,500 dollars that we budgeted We spent 70,245 for salt And 51,676 for sand so we under spent sand just a hair And we over spent salt by You know 50 20 20 thousand dollars And this year we budgeted 51,500 for salt and 53 for sand so we budgeted back to the 2018 level Part of the increase in price from year to year is an increase in the cost of the materials You know as like everything Things go out some years salt is in short supply. It all Mostly all comes out of new york state Salt mines there and Some years It's harder to get than others or there's more demand for it in other places So the the price is pretty variable Salt we We kind of touch twice So the salt comes in we don't have a huge salt shed You know in places you can go around and see there's a big conical building instead of salt sheds We've got a one bay garage And in the worst kind of weather we have enough storage for about A week to two weeks worth of salt, you know, there's not a lot of storage there But the salt comes in you push it in the garage You put it on a truck and then spread it and and that's what we do We move a little bit of it down here behind the school so the sidewalk plow can Can get so We basically touch salt once when we're putting it on on the truck and spread it sand You know, we're we're touching that a lot We've got to get it in a lot of the sand is hauled in by a private contractor But we haul some of it in ourselves We've got to put it in the pile we've got to push the pile up We've got to make salt into the pile and that pile gets lots of work Throughout the winter and then we put it on the trucks and then we spread it And then we plow it off and then in the spring we got to go and we got to sweep it all up So I'm not sure and and I'm not the economist. I guess you left so you left just in time You know, I'm not sure Which is more cost effective. Certainly the other issue with salt is what it does to your vehicles And the like So I'm all for using less The question becomes how do you use less and where do you use less? We're going to unless the board says Don't do it We're going to salt Plus hill road from root 100 up until you get up near the top. We're going to salt Perry hill road. We're going to solve this hill road We're going to solve the heavy, you know, the steep portions of Byron's Hill Those are just safety reasons now some of those roads not blush hill because of coming down is the issue with blush hill where you want that You want blush hill bared off if you can because you don't want people sliding out onto root 100 Some of the other roads, you know, you can use sand on those But sand works well if it stays cold if it gets slushy Sand isn't going to do much Salt melts the slush, you know that that stuff off so We can try If the board wants to say we don't want salt put on flat roads That's what I'll I'll help But you know from my perspective the people who are Taking care of the roads Many of them have been doing it for a long time and I think they know roads and how they how they are Affecting the traveling public We don't have a bare polish bare roads policy here, but There are places that salt and and like a lot more than than we do so There's no easy answer. I'm not sure If you want to craft one, I'll be happy to listen to it and pass it along Did you um, you gave us the um the budget and the spent amount for 2018 in 2019 In the do we have a how much you spent in that year this recent winter? Um, I don't have it with okay. Do you think it was similar? Well, the the sand budget the sand budget, um, we spend the sand budget mainly and when we bring We've we've got our sand for this winter And my guess is it's going to be pretty darn close to the 53 thousand dollars budget because that includes Getting the sand in here. We try to bring in Whenever 5,000 yards or whatever whatever it is Every year not every year but often this year in particular I've been in Vermont towns since 1982 Uh, I should never say never but we've never run out of sand. We've never had to go right into this You know the middle of winter Um, we somehow always managed to have sand And there's enough sand that's kind of fallen down into the Frank mightings below the The highway garage that if we had to we couldn't mind that So we have any data that the saint the salt is really is is causing a problem If the amount that it gets used I I have no I have no water shed the area. I have no data chain I mean, I don't know if anybody tests the solidity of The brooks and rivers around here And it totally I know Just said a little while ago by the gentleman that's had over there I know in new york states some of the some of the Lakes up in the adirondacks have had significant chemical Change in there in their Water and it's attributable to salt whether it's really from that or not. No, there's acid rain and everything else that falls So no, I don't have any data chain Okay, I mean I'm sympathetic to the issue, but I don't with that without any kind of a little more analysis or data I don't really know how we can Yeah, it's it's not any analysis or data that I can I know I I did um Related to the slush versus um, you know cold snow issue. I did hear a presentation um, probably two years ago by um graduate student university of vermont about perp her real permanent permeable paved pavement and He said that in vermont. We had like a very um The freeze thought cycles were Much greater than other parts of the country which makes it very challenging for those permeable pavements. So I guess that's That's the only data I would know that we have a lot of that freezing and thawing and it could make it challenging And that's why you want to use more salt. I think I think again, uh, the perception anyway is that we're having More frequent thaws and then re-freezing I mean that certainly doesn't do any good for the pave roads because You know any crack that's in the pavement if it thaws at all or just melts on the surface It doesn't have to thaw below but if there's Cracks and water gets into those cracks and then it gets cold and freezes. Obviously those cracks get Expanded so it's it's not great to have the freeze thaw cycle on the on the back roads there's gravel roads We typically don't put salt on those roads at all because salt would eat down through you You know, you want those gravel roads to be frozen as much as possible between in the middle of december and The end of March because we all know what mud season is like and you don't want to You know, we don't add salt there except a little bit of salt that's already mixed in the sand to help it Not not, you know, please have to be close I I can't exchange I can't cite any specific studies, but I know I have read studies Look at the vehicles in vermont and other northern new england states Look at the vehicles in montana wyoming and other western states that don't use salt They use predominantly sand To me, it's very obvious. The salt is rotting our vehicles away Not only does it have and i'm a fisherman. I know it does have You know, I can't cite here specific, but it has had effects on trout fisheries in in new england Salt is just not a natural thing in our our environment and it's probably Not put this way. It's not doing anything good That's your brook when I was a kid was loading the trout if you could lock that brook any given day And see them swimming In almost every pool Um, the other issue we have with our roads is that you know, some of our roads and we've been working on Trying to upgrade our asphalt roads as fast as we can and as fast as our budget will allow us but Because the roads some of our roads like maple street and gupto road is getting to the point where it's Going to be declining very rapidly here in the next couple of years That it takes a lot more salt to keep those roads clear deteriorated And that just accelerates the problem Because then the water sits in those holes in those cracks and they just get pounded to death um I mean it'd be interesting to try and experiment on At least a couple of the flatter roads like maple street For a ways there till you get to the bottom of barns hill Gupto roads of another good example of where we could Limit our salt use and maybe resort more to sand on a couple of the corners And kneeling flats for a long ways is just a nice flat stretch Should be able to negotiate that with Not too much problem You get a lot of taxpayers in here tonight if you want to weigh in on this issue feel free If you think we're out of our heads to try to limit the Man of salt and sand use then Feel free to tell us or if you have some concerns about the impacts of it and How it's you know, I think we've kind of eaten up our A lot of our salt budget from this for this year from from last winter, hadn't we? Um, remember right we I'm sure we did but but our You know, we're on a calendar year. So our our winter months are really january february and march and then Usually december now in 2018 Gold and snowy all throughout so It's not unusual that the bulk of our salt We've spent I don't have it here in front of me chris, but I know we've we spent more in january through march last year pardon my ignorance, but um, I've never driven a dump truck before so I Is there what controls our rate of application? I goes guy or gal from our highway department goes out to Salt in the winter. Uh, is it just the speed of the vehicle? Is there a there's a uh There's a controlled knob Years ago. We had tailgate spreaders and it was uh, it was a gear wheel on the outside of the axle of the truck and there was a chain and On the tailgate spreader and That controlled the auger would go and the auger would spin if you went faster the auger went faster Um, and uh in the 1990s That's when we we started buying the the spinners that were controlled in the in the cab we have most of our Smaller dump trucks still have tailgate Spreaders that are controlled with a little knob in the cab. There's probably two knobs on the thing Um, and then the tandem truck has a under the body Sandy That's control from inside as well there are You know, you can set the the control that will That will regulate how much salt goes out and they typically do that their stomach conditions There aren't computers that and we we had some I don't know if we still have any that you could set a rate per mile and that computer would regulate the The spreading regardless of what speed you were going. So if if you wanted, you know, two tons of mile of salt Um, and I just pulled that out of my head. I don't know if that's close to what they do or not but if you wanted two tons of mile for salt you'd set that control and Whether you went 20 miles an hour if you went 40 miles an hour two tons of mile would go out but Every computer has an overriding ability where the operator can say well, there's not enough going out and you know Yeah, I mean the state has an educational class that you can take to specifically on how to regulate your salt and sand use but When that was discussed With our road form and she basically said it was a waste of time because the guys are going to do what they want to do anyway, so That can be taken care of I mean if that's really the case, uh, you know, you can We can find a way to say this is what you're going to do And if you don't there's an issue that's kind of what I was getting at It seems like this salt if we're going to manage the amount of salt that we're using right now On the amount of roads that we have to spread it on it seems like a management Well, there has to be controls and ways to control it. Yeah I mean there has to be some kind of a an auditable You know number of Criterion payment and the amount of salt that has to go down on those miles of pavement During a typical storm, you know, it seems like we don't have a A viable metric to to go up against if we're going to try to Grab the reins on how much salt we're using I think I think I'm not disagreeing with you and there's a There's a variable metric in place regardless because you know if Um And I'm sure it can be figured out if we really want to but there's going to be a difference between You know what happens in the village area versus what happens outside the village area because part of your application of salt also depends upon traffic because traffic across roadway even in the wintertime is going to warm the pavement and You put salt down and you want that traffic over it and if you don't have enough traffic Especially if it's cold, you know below a certain temperature Unless you have a real lot of traffic. It's not worth putting salt down at all. It's a it's a decent enough aggregate in terms of you know preventing Sliding but sand is a much more efficient way to prevent sliding in those So if you don't have enough traffic and it's 20 degrees or below you don't want to put salt out anywhere except in the village maybe so it's it's not just You know everybody's exactly the same we've we've got Down here in the village you're at 400 feet elevation Up where you know Where I live you're at 1200 feet and up where mark lives You're probably you know close to 1800 feet or What not quite a few but some of the people move it up about so my my two quick thoughts on this are one I think maybe a couple of us could meet With the highway department I think they're going to be the experts on any changes that we might even want to consider for this season I think safety for me is the biggest concern of any changes that we might do That puts the general public at risk because we might be tracking it If it's if it's truly about saving a buck and There's a safety contingent to that I personally I have concerns without knowing exactly what those changes ultimately mean, but You know the financial component to me. I think is the long-term condition of the roads and what it's doing I think you know the a $20,000 overach on salt versus Um, you know a road lasting five years less because of the salt usage over time I think is is a is a viable conversation But I think one meeting with the highway department with a few of us and just talking through what they see and what they think because You know, they might no one's telling them otherwise potentially and they just are doing What they think is right, but um, I think that's those are important conversations But they should be done with them The other one is is are there towns in vermont that either a have gone to completely sand and how is that working for them? Or what other towns could we look to emulate and just if they have policies that have been able to spend a budget on more of a a controlled study on how they approach salt and sand and who's doing it right and And you know, we're a smaller town But maybe bigger towns have the budget to bring in a consultant and they've done it and they have a plan and we can We can steal from those plans or you know borrow those plans I think is worth looking into I don't know what towns we might need to look at to try to do that But I hate thinking that every town is sitting here having the same conversation about salt and sand tonight. So I mean somebody's I can I can look into that that's And you know that the town manager is still fairly well. I think They have an alternative to salt Maybe you could check into that. I was somebody told me that they were using something different I could be completely wrong, but uh It might be worth and build maybe you could look into it because I know new york state Has a lot of communities have gone Saltless they've gone to you know just sand And there's probably some data out there that would you know From from from those communities. I I think it's a fairly significant number of them I think at some point you'll see that you'd be forced into them, you know, the sand is uh Probably better for your vehicle than the salt is right But you know lots of sand is no panacea either. No fill up ditches They get into this sediment You put too much sand on a gravel road and uh, you know, they're harder to grade they're harder to to keep from getting muddy They're harder to keep the integrity of the road the way they should be with You know the the civil analysis of of grap. So sand is no Panacea either. Yeah There's no perfect golden arrow Okay, we'll probably it's a good idea to go talk to the highway people to maybe outside of this public forum I'll set that up suggestion All right, we're going to come full circle back to the Item on the top of the list, which is the status of the ring road And uh, looks like we've got a few people here interested in talking about The status of the ring road um I had this put on the agenda because I just recently was doing a little project up there and uh Was a little bit concerned with the condition of the road being a class 4 town road It's the town's responsibility. You can correct me if I'm wrong bill that we are Obligated to take care of the ditches and the culverts um I don't know if there's any regulations stipulating that we have to keep the brush cutter or anything like that, but I From what I understand. It's strictly Keeping the ditches and the culverts in good operation um, but I noticed that a lot of the ditches are now three quarters full of Runoff from the ring road itself. Uh, the ring road has gotten to the point where it's A short section of it is gouged out so bad that I got to believe that during each Rainstorm of any magnitude A lot of the product That's on the road Is ending up in the brook nearby brook? Uh, because you can see that the ditches are three quarters full And I'm sure it's impacting culverts as well. Um My concern was the fact that I do know that I guess outside of our realm of Obligation, we do put aggregate on that road Especially during the spring and grade it to try to deal with the mud issues, but What prompted me to put this on the agenda was the fact that The aggregate that the town is now spending money to put on the road is now in the ditch or in the brook Uh, and the road has gotten To the point where it needs grading. I did contact the highway foreman And asked her I said you I know you're up to your eyeballs Uh, the ring road is getting pretty bad. Um Is there anything you can do to run a grader by it and maybe bring it back to par Uh before winter and she said as I knew anyway, they typically do two gradings during the season um But I'm wondering Obviously the highway department doesn't need more work. We're having issues keeping up with what we got already but the fact of the matter is that Even though that's a class four town road There's a great deal of residents that are starting to be put up there And more to come I know from talking with one gentleman who just sold three lots in waterbury center Two of them were on the ring road So and the project i'm working on is for another residents So as time goes on there are other properties up above that are going to be developed um Eventually that road will be seen as much traffic as a lot of our class two and three roads are currently seeing and i'm wondering if it's To our advantage to be more proactive The municipality and the highway department to perhaps during summer conditions try to Maybe grade it more often if we're going to continue to put aggregate on that road to some degree to try to at least salvage it by Keeping up with the grading Because what's happening is now our obligation to fix the culverts and ditches Is becoming an issue to that we're going to have to address uh So I guess what i'm asking is there a possibility that the town highway department can be more proactive You know we're going to have to do something with the ditches now but after if if we can and do Do something with the ditches Rather than going to the expense of Because it's going to cost more to deal with the ditch work Then it is to simply maybe run a greater up there once or twice more during the season So I guess I that's the reason I brought it up to see what we could do to try to stem the erosion of the road and salvage what money the town is putting into it now So I don't have any answers. Yeah, but this is you know got put on the agenda. I don't know what it meant So I'm not prepared to discuss it a lot of people here Yeah, there's a lot of people here. You're welcome to come up to the mic State your name and talk about Any concerns? Hi, I'm bob Olson. I uh, I live on bear creek, which is off ring road I have some pictures that we took back in the spring after the torrential rain couple of them right near a gentleman that's sitting right here is right wing But anyway, if you want to see it, you're welcome to it. I have contacted woody about this a few times And his last response indicated that he had Had a representative central mont regional planning commission on site talking about funds to tackle road erosion And that they were going to try to run a culvert up. That was back beginning of this month Culvert or a greater? I'm sorry a greater Yeah, miss vote. Uh, yeah, and he said it may be possible to do limited ditching in culverts. So And I know he's he's aware of the issue. Uh, he's come on site and looked at it. Um I know that we actually have been talking about this while we lived up for 12 years Um, and we had alec up that right right after we moved in and So, um, I don't I don't mean to interrupt Bob and you know the ring road In particular and class fours class four roads in general are are they're Not an easy not to crack for us So in 1967 the state reclassified the town highways in the state and that's the last time that the reclassification was done and I won't be able to quote this exactly but But as I said at the beginning of the meeting Classes of roads are determined basically by the volume of traffic that they carry And class one roads are major arterials like main street Class two roads are like wanouski street and stow street And gupto road, which are collector roads that Collect traffic from the class three roads and then bring them into the state highway system or class one town highways Class three roads are typically The streets in the village and The roads in the town Off of the class two roads. So neil and flats maple street irons hill gild hill Shaw mansion loomis hill Um, almost all the gravel roads that we have it you you can have a class two Road That has a lot of traffic on it. That's gravel. There's fewer and fewer of those in the state, but there are some they're I'm not sure there's any more state highways that are gravel but root From From North strafford up to canaan 103 I think it is used to be a state highway that was gravel. So it has nothing to do with the road surface class four roads We are required and and again i'm i'm just And i'm speaking from memory We're required to be able to keep those roads passable for a passenger car Doesn't say to go 40 miles an hour. It just says the passenger car In the summer months And we are responsible for the water courses. So if a class four road Washes out in a flash flood or in a spring runoff We've got to go and put that road Back in shape so passenger vehicles can get across it We don't have any obligation to grade the roads. We don't have any obligation You know the the ditches Certainly if you if you don't keep the ditches clean Then you're probably going to invite problems with your culverts But the requirements on those roads are very very Minimal from the standpoint of what we have to do And the reason class four roads are our class four roads is because back When it was reclassified in 1967 there were probably two hunting camps up on that road And you know, we've got the middle sex notch road, which has some residents on it We've got Woodard Hill Road that has a bunch of camps on it. There's a few other class four roads around But starting especially in the 1990s People decided well, you know, there's Better vehicles now. There's four-wheel drive vehicles. We can get up there and more and more development and current And you know paul reed Did a lot of development on that road and paul reed pushed to have The road improved and we said well, we don't have any Obligation to do that Well, we're taxpayers here. We should have The town take care of these roads Well, there's a whole bunch of taxpayers that live on roads like harvey farm road or pinnacle ridge road Or the road that you developed up there off of Off a shaw mansion that are private roads and those are taxpayers as well And we don't do anything on those roads So the fact that people pay taxes on the roads doesn't automatically mean they get Full service like you would on a class one two or three road So I don't say this at all to minimize the concerns that you folks have I've been up on Ring road many times You know, I just drive up there. I used to walk up there quite Frequently and you know when I get called I go up There's no simple solution The concern that I have is that If you start doing something on one class four road that is significantly different than how you have other class four roads Where there are where there are homes Then what kind of door are you opening in other areas? I'll do anything that the board and the The taxpayers allow us to do but we have a highway budget and the highway budget has minimal Minimal accommodation for Class four roads and I know I've been at the home of a gentleman who's had to you know dig out the end of his driveway Several times over the past few years and there's no question about it The rainstorms are getting more frequent and they're getting heavier And it's not just on your road that we're facing those issues. They're here on class two and three Roads that, you know, we've spent a lot of time again on Shaw Mansion Road earlier this year So there's no simple solution. We have a Seven-member highway crew and one of those members is dedicated to mowing logs in the summertime So there's there's only so much that I can get them to get done in a year The I mentioned myself at the beginning of the meeting before you folks came in and bob You just alluded to it The issues of degradation of the state's waterways has prompted the legislature to try to do something about storm water runoff and they have Delegated to the regional planning commissions and have provided money to the regional planning commissions that provide money to towns for Highways with interconnected There are interconnected waterways and the the brook that runs down Ring Road crosses under ring road at the at the bottom and then it ends up, you know, paralleling Nealing flats down and ends up into the brook that goes through the Davis firemen then down to thatcher brook And ultimately down here to the winners river. So that's an interconnected waterway And we can use some of the money that we get from the regional planning commission to address Issues on that road but it's you know, it's a I don't know. I think it's a $25,000 grant or something and if you look at the map Go ask Steve lot speech to show you the highways that are Adjacent to interconnected waterways. I mean we could spend $25,000 in you know space of You know a quarter mile pretty easily. So there's not a lot of money there. So I'm I'm sympathetic I'm willing to work with the board the highway department the folks on the road but understand What you do on that road beyond what you are legally required to do Is going to then invite people from other class four roads to app for to have similar Treatment does this class four road have a lot more people living on it than other ones in town? It probably has more than other roads, but we have other class four roads that have significant There's at least 20 residences. Yeah, I just did the contact list today and they're at 19 right now Right and I'd say six it bob kesvensky 660 ring Um, there were probably when we moved out there were five of us Six full time. Yeah full time and one of the things that that I'd like to see Basically what happens is when the town comes out and they do do the twice a year job They come up and they they drop material on and chris can probably speak to this In terms of how much the how much Is spent on the material, but they come in the morning They may come up nine o'clock in the morning They dump some material on the road. They run the grader over it and they're gone by 11 o'clock and Usually within two days it rains They don't put the they don't do the grader On the road prior to putting the material to fix all of the rivulets that that are created You just put the material on and spread it Two days later it rains and it's gone and the same rivulets have been there for about 10 years And I would like to see them if they're going to do anything Don't put the material on take the grader and go up and put some crown on the road And and run it up one side and put it in the middle and run it up the other side and then smooth it out I'm not sure there's material enough on that road where those rivulets are to grade It's right on top of ledge and it's bony stuff. Good. Well, it's not gradable. It is but It's almost useless to do what's being done now The other thing that has happened and and I know that uh, Verge pierces tried to address this is where they put in the the ridge Over um over uh, Bear Creek They put a ditch on the right hand side as you're going down and it fills with water It's been out there trying to dig that thing out So it drains back into the brook and it it ponds is a pond right in there now It goes all the way around it and the water Fills up in that in that uh low spot and there are potholes all along there. We put that bridge in no no no that's Once you once you go on the Bear Creek. That's not that's not town Well, they they did put a huge ring up there. Yeah, they put a huge culvert in and Yeah, there's that ditch. There's the ditch. There's the ditch to nowhere at the bottom of the ring road Bottom ring road. Yeah John single slide well, it's culvert. Yeah, it's the culvert. I know where he's talking about there's and I mentioned it to woody there There's yeah, basically the ditch goes so far and then stops just constantly pools of water there and then the water runs across the road and Yeah, yeah, so I understand there are potholes in there and and and when you when you're coming down the road You go off over the left to avoid the potholes and that rise there. So there's going to be a head on there sometime so And I would say the other thing is it where the where the road flattens out where it gets up to uh, Ripley road there Those potholes have been there forever and I'm just Potholes are real pain. Obviously. We know that they're pain But I'm just wondering if they take it down and and try to deal with the crown of the road there a little bit It's it's flat and the water just sits there and when you go over it It makes a pot that makes probably how many potholes are there? Two dozen and uh, it's awful So those are you know, uh So I spoke putting putting material on the road right now. I I would call what's being done there It's cosmetic. It's cosmetic for about three or four days and then it's So I spoke to bill woodruff just a little while ago. Okay, he said there is an alternative Uh But the alternative kind of lies in the residents that live on that class four town road He suggested that there's a possibility that If the residents wanted to spend the money to upgrade That section of road to town spec That the town possibly take it over Now from mark fryer's house up to the cul-de-sac Well from the bottom of the ring road to the cul-de-sac is the class four four town road from mark fryer's to the cul-de-sac Is the best condition of that entire road I don't know a few people would be interested in Getting together as a group Getting some cost analysis done on what it would take Meet with bill woodruff. Perhaps Well, this is this is what happened when when Paul reeds first started selling lots up there Paul came to us. Um, what I was going to say a minute ago is that the town has, uh Uh, a highway ordinance and specifications and it talks about um The town taking over roads or upgrading roads and it's in the ordinance that it's up to the residents of the road To do this to focus on pinnacle ridge At least three times in the time that i've been here have come to the select board and asked the town to take over pinnacle ridge road and Every time the select board is pointed to the ordinance and said if you upgrade the road to meet these standards We'll take it over We did that with upland mowing upland mowing which is off of perry hill road Um We're near where this culvert is Upland mowing was a Private road and they came in and said we want the town to take this over We worked with them When your engineering helped them they upgraded the road they put the Requisite gravel in they put the requisite slopes in the curves and everything else and Once they did the work the town took it over so Um But when paul reed came You know that was communicated to him as well and it was like well, we don't want to do that We don't have it's and I think you know it'd be a costly affair. I believe Um, and we made an agreement at that point that the town would Significantly upgrade that culvert Uh at the bottom, you know when you come in off of Ripley road and go down the depth That culvert there was was much smaller than it is now and it washed out a couple of different times but My guess is and I don't know this for certain But part of the issue of more water coming down the road is that there's more development up there and the More water, you know, it's not landing in the forest anymore. It's landing on people's Lads and driveways and it all comes down. So Um, we did Significant work in the bottom of that road Uh, I think bob that was probably around the time that you moved in maybe shortly before that You should be uh, and gets mad when you're not All right, so yeah, right after we moved in uh in 2007 Uh, they are actually before 2007 so around 2005 I don't know who did it. I thought it was paul actually Changed the ramp going up to Ripley So from ring up to Ripley. That was a rather steep He did that work. We we put the culvert in and then where the brook comes in. Yes, and then and then I think it was around That was about 2004 maybe 2007 Highway department put in it took out the existing culvert put in a much larger I think it was a double pipe culvert, which was getting plugged all the time put in the much larger one but soon thereafter it's developed the problem that bob was uh Also talking about the ditch not kind of going But yeah, so that was done. Uh, dade grenier tells me that the town at one point also did The section of road up from what is now mark's house To the turnaround and he said that was 20 or 30 years ago And they widened it from a cow path to what it is today But yeah, I don't remember the history. Yeah, I don't remember that but I trust they've been installed Dennis finished plant Bill's been at bottom my driveway. Um more than he cares more than I care for him I'm actually a retired physician and a member speaking to either bill You or bill Of uh from my office Wondering where the culvert was at the bottom of my driveway. I said, are you Where it says 362 ring road and I said and he said yes, he said you're standing on it and it was just completely Gone full of sand and that cost me $1,200 Um to get it sucked out. Um So I have no interest in having to repeat that event Um earlier this year. It also got completely Filled up fortunately branches that Plugged that up and and with the crew Coming we were able to Clear that up and the culvert was not plugged um, it just Had a bunch of debris. Uh, that was the problem um In my opinion, there there's there's there's an intro interval solution from do nothing which is To a complete get it up to class three road standard And that is the the main problem is the narrows, which is just before mark's place That's the place where there is the bottleneck. That's the place where there's the problem. That's where the runoff occurs Which ends up a a in my driveway or all off to the side of of the road We walked that area last year and this year last year and this year I was told You really need to put another culvert in that area Now if there was a a culvert in that area to divert all of the water that's coming down On mark fryer side of the drive of that road All of that water Has nowhere to go except To the bottom my driveway where it hits a culvert My culvert and then there's a cross road culvert That if it's unplugged will divert some of that water We need another culvert above my driveway Um right next to mark's I'm sorry It's really small and it's up further. Okay. We need one halfway down to divert the water Paul reed rest in peace said To save this road you got to get the water off the road You got to get it into the culverts and then off the road if it's staying on the road Or staying in uh not getting to the culvert is going to continue to deteriorate the road And yes the culvert the the ditches have filled in with the stuff that's been washing off the road And yes, the the the town has a responsibility for the ditches But you know the ditches could get cleaned out and unless there's a culvert There diverting that water We're going to keep revisiting the same problem and i'm again My driveway is right at the bottom where this pinch point is and you put the culvert in it's a nice big culvert It it works fine We got to keep that culvert at the bottom of my driveway from plugging up We need if we had a a diverting culvert across The road right we're halfway up to where mark's place is we can Save a lot of that runoff Problem that's occurring at the narrow. So I think that's the main place where people are concerned about where ring road It's just above my driveway. Unfortunately. I don't have to drive up there. So i'm not like, you know Concerned that i'm going to go off into the big ditch Um on one side or into the culvert uh ditch on the other side So an interval solution is getting a cross road culvert there which is I spoke to celia this year. She says we'll see about if we can get a culvert up there this year, you know Can't make any promises or she told me last year. We're going to get to it Um, but it it didn't happen last year because it ran out of time. Um, she told me it was gonna We got a budgeted for this year and it it hasn't happened. Um, that that's a short term solution To a chronic problem that would do a lot to preserve the Function of ring war ring ring Separate issue is getting it up to a class three road and I think I think we would be interested in seeing how much it would cost To to make that happen We got expensive houses up that road if we all had to pitch in You know Well, if if we all had to pitch in, you know, $5,000 to $10,000 to get it up to a class Class three road at the town would then take over. We may be worthwhile. That may be worthwhile investment If it's $50,000 uh household, I think that's a that's a separate problem. Okay If you can find funding from state grants, um that there's No funding for except for this storm water That I spoke about there's no funding for class four roads. That's why we We're not required to maintain them Right and I understand we're in a catch 22 on that one, but so, um, you know This is uh, I highly used and highly valued class four road that Nothing strategy is going to continue to create loss of frustration an interval solution getting Across the road to divert the the water from brushing down the side of the road would be Cleaning out the the gutters that are plugged up would also be valuable In terms of the priority getting the water diverted To me it makes much more sense than cleaning out the ditches so Dennis to your point The town is strapped for time strapped for budget and so on the frequency of our Storms that we've been having have created excessive amount of problems that the town has to address they're they're jumping around putting out fires wherever they have to If a culvert if it's if you're suggesting that one culvert Would make all the difference in the world If I were living on that road That culvert would be in in other words There's 20 residents up there if one culvert is the issue You know the town can't get to it. I would suggest that You get somebody to put put the culvert in and Maybe solve a a bigger part of the problem Uh In other words, I would just I guess this is how I would put it. I wouldn't wait around for the town I do it myself What are you doing next weekend? It's recorded by the wedding Yeah, I know it And and to the bigger point to the bigger point You're right if if The group was willing to get together talk about and get some estimates to have that road upgraded You know get the specs from the town Um Pretty expensive Yeah, I upgrading to a class three is you don't you don't know until you ask right uh what the result says and and for future Owners of property up there If they're going to contribute help contribute to this if there's going to be other property sales that are going on up there Maybe there's some form of a reimbursement every time a new resident comes along up there If the 20 residents there now foot the bill to have the road upgraded Down the road there might be 30 or 40 residents up there and over time If it were possible in that as a group would have to put this deal together that reimbursements would take place once somebody builds a new home I mean go back to pay pay you people back for a portion of what you've expected bill Is there a limit on the 25 000 in terms of what it has to be spent? No, it can as long as it's as long as the Regional Planning Commission folks determine that it will be beneficial for water quality. We can spend it but There's the there's the kind of the catch 22 is that I don't remember the name of the road right across the road from me, but I live up on Ripley road And age coach Anyway, um Woodwoods woods farm road woods farm road So so there was there was land there that was just as undeveloped as the land that you folks live on And somebody decided that hey, I can sell lots They had to build the road To do that and they built a good road It's a road that has switched backs. It's got ditches And everything else so the developers of the land Decided that we're going to develop this land. We're going to sell these lots We need to have access to the land and they got it you folks I don't say this I don't say this Condemning you but you folks said well, this is a town road So we're going to build on a town road There was you should have had no expectation the town was going to do anything more to that road than ever was done before And if paul reid and other folks there had decided that You know We want to sell lots of here. We're going to develop this road They would have done that and it's it's I understand from your perspective you pay You know you pay property taxes You pay a lot of property taxes. You have nice homes but You're you're kind of suggesting that everybody else in the town should Build the road To get to a place where the town had already chosen that it wasn't going to invest in that infrastructure. So It's just a it's a little bit of a challenge and and You know, I wasn't as brave as chris was when When the doctor was talking as the plan that uh, you know Put the culvert in if that will solve the problem, you know, take care of it because that's what typically Folks who want to develop on class four roads do so I'm not sure we're going to get to it this spring. I mean this fall Uh, we've had issues. We we have rain. It doesn't just fall on ripply road We've got other roads that we're trying to take care of and and we're running out of time I know that bill talked to me bill woodruff talked to me about three weeks ago and said that he'd been up there with With the people from the regional planning commission. So we can do it. So we can probably Pay for this culvert It's a matter of are we going to have time this year to do it or not and I I can't promise that So george, I gotta let jack go before you. Okay. He was I'm real quick. Yeah from 390 bear creek and So number one, thank you for bringing bringing this up I think we met one of two things I talked to bill the other day as well And he told a lot of this through emails There is a minimal amount of Work that you put into it. I think that's maybe what we're looking for if there's something right now A minimal amount of investment Or some infrastructure we can do on the road to save the road because you've seen the narrows christ You've been up there almost every day the narrows were losing the narrows You know, you almost can't get one car pass And that's the issue. I think we're trying to approach for just for today I just want to say thank you for bringing it up and george And I'll talk to celia and bill tomorrow to to see if you know, there's something that we can do more quickly So I'll do it But george pierced 741 bear creek I think and the town seems to be making its position clear and I appreciate that and That seems consistent with the message we've been getting before The variable I think for us as a group of neighbors to be able to Take this any further is to get the information on What would it take to get it up to a class three now? I don't want to speak for the board But the message I got was that if you get it to a class three or it could certainly be discussed before you invested in it The question of the town taking it over Is something you would know before you would go it would be anybody would go ahead spending a whole chunk of money But how much is that money and what is the spec that we have to meet? What's the best process for getting the answer to that question? Well Anybody who wants a copy of the Of the highway specification ordinance we can get that to this. That's not a problem at all Uh, I think that the the best way to approach that and I don't want to kid anybody It will be expensive the folks if you know anybody on pinnacle ridge road That development there those roads are significantly in better Shape and then then the ring road is And they have chosen not to do What's necessary because they feel it's too expensive, uh, you know I think the ordinance was written before I came to town And uh, you know, I'm not suggesting that it was written in a fashion to prevent this from happening because it has happened There have been places that did it. Um, I think peri lee road was built By a developer and then turned over to the town that happened before I came here in 1988 However, but that road was I believe turned over to the town And I know that Value you wrote over the shop mansion And steel built that road and that road was turned over to the town I'm not sure that may have happened before the ordinance and then I already told you about Upland bowling has Has happened But I think the best thing to do would be to have a couple of you maybe meet with alex tuskeny Alec if he didn't write the ordinance was instrumental in its Writing and alex when he was public works director was the one that worked with The folks from pinnacle ridge When they ultimately decided not to do the work and with the people at upland bowling who did do the work To bring it up to standard and clearly my recommendation to this lightboard would be If any road is brought up to that standard Will take it all. I mean, I don't think anybody here would say, oh gee, you did all that work and now we're still gonna say No, I think it's pretty much a Automatic You build a road to the standard and turn it over to the town the town's going to accept it Which is a challenge because then we just have a more road that we have to maintain as a class three road But that's a whole different issue But I think that talking with alec directly and reviewing that ordinance would give me the best idea about How complicated and how costly it would be to get that up to class three standards I think if we can get a ballpark on cost Even if it's you know pretty broad range it at least Gets us closer than looking at a lot You know, it's it's it's hard to make too much of a decision Yeah, or even well, you know, there's a ball and they don't want to go to full fools. They aren't either Alex a alexa pe And he would be able to You know better than anyone else here Be able to you know give rough estimates as to you know materials that it is And the life so I think looking at that ordinance and talking to alec would be the first step if you're really serious about that I think that the other more short-term issues that we're talking about I'll talk with celia and bill tomorrow to see Okay, we were out there in the spring. I remember it. Um, and I remember One of the times that I went up in the spring the highway crew happened to be up there already when I got It's a word there So I will ask celia what the you know with the likelihood that we can get up there and get that Area that arrows as you call it Look that this year No promises Yeah, the other consideration too in this whole issue is uh the money that you people are spending On that section of ring road from there to the cul-de-sac just for winter maintenance, you know If the town takes that over That cost kind of goes away for you So you can consider that when when you're looking at the upgrade as kind of a payback Oh Sure, go ahead state your name Just two little comments at the end one we live The cul-de-sac's on our land From there up we pay for the flower and sanding of our road Nobody does it. It's it'll be nice to have that included That's an expense But more just keep in the back of your mind If you haven't seen the narrows go up there and look at it somebody's going to die up there Seriously in any season there's so much traffic. There's a lot of trucks people try But remember that when you're thinking about what could we do about this road? Yeah, I'm in third gear when I go up that road because I never know what's going to come flying around the board Dan Brady 1045 ring road What I'd like to go back to is a comment made at the beginning I believe about The classification and how it's determined and part of what you had said was the amount of traffic on the road and So how much how many residents there are how many potential residents? Bob has a list of 19 residents that Actually have homes, but that isn't everybody. There's two hunting camps behind our house There's a number of other properties so you know Who's actually looking in to see at some point these collapsed four roads Based on those specifications that the state laid out in 1967 When can that be changed? There's not a trigger mechanism. Is there a bell? You know You know eight years old in 1967 so I don't know the you know from the perspective of municipalities. It's been That's the class four road and we really don't do anything except make it passable for a passenger car um, I don't think there's any trigger mechanism as chris chris said um, certainly the town itself could choose to Make that a class three road. There's a there's a process in state statute that allows Towns to lay out roads The town if they chose could discontinue that road if they wanted to That would be more difficult to do with 19 people on the road who would object to it But it is possible You know and we've been through that process in the past too where we've There are some class three roads that go from You know the highway to the millhouse of a former farm and You know if you go up peri hill there's a road called town town road Which is Right near where al-luis lives and there's a little short stretch that goes up the hill and Back in the 90s. We tried to Discontinue that road so we wouldn't have to plow it. It's somebody's driveway in effect But there was objection so we still You know we take care of that driveway really as a class three road So there's I don't think because there's 19 houses now it automatically just becomes a class three road The town could be classified if it chose to Our recommendation would be we're not going to choose to do it because it's a it's a lot of expense and We don't seem to want to raise the tax rate yourself Oh Thanks, dan. Yeah, um, thanks chris for putting this on that agenda. I didn't actually do this Um, I've only been up to three years and I think the one thing that I was hoping to get out of this was an understanding of You know, I've been on the board for quite a while and a class four road now living on it I have a not as much understanding of expectation So after we had that pretty good washout that I'm I I saw many roads around town and knew of any roads that we were working on um You know ring got Regrated but really little to no ditch work was done that I saw especially in the section that I live Um, I feel like a lot of what we're talking about today Lives in those ditches in terms of how exactly they're built and how they drain and um Even back in that one section at the bottom that they were talking about That kind of turns into the pond. I feel like if that ditch I've seen some of my neighbors out there trying to Fix the ditch, but I really feel like if the town came in with the equipment they have and And uh repitched it back towards the culvert that's there A lot of that would potentially go away And I guess, you know the comment the comment was well for the culvert up Up the street up the street that we're talking about maybe adding was well if you guys think that's a solution you should go do it But then bill the comment is is Well, maybe we can figure out how to do it and I think we're all in the position that We'd love to not pay for it The towns willing to do this work and and do some of the work and and where do we Understand where the town starts and stops when it comes to things like ditch work I think we you know, I'm on an email chain with with my neighbors and We'll say well, maybe we'll send out a grader to deal with this But then the question is is Should the town so like where is where is that like it's to me? It's too gray and and maybe that's just something that's going to continue but You know, it would be really helpful and I think I would like as not only a select sportsman But a resident to understand what the expectations are so we know And then I don't know like if we want to go dig across a road and put a culvert in is that just Are we free to throw one in wherever like where where is the line? I don't know, you know Maybe we're just going to build the road with culverts. I don't know like I don't know I'm just wondering like I'm really not trying to be too comfortable about it But it's really better if the town we put the culvert in I appreciate and I had the same thought that chris did that If it's that critical just go ahead and do it You know, mr. Plant said something About putting a culvert across the road above There's no question that that would probably help But And I could be completely wrong, but it's it's not going to be easy excavation there. It's it's pretty bony material to call What's on the right side of the road going up as you get toward those narrows to to call that a ditch is A little bit of an overstatement. There's really not any room for a ditch There's the the road and then there's this slope that goes up the hill So, you know keeping ditches Real ditches in place And a steep a steep slope like that area, you know the state standards now is going to tell us that We need to have stone line ditches there Probably so it's it's not just easy to take care of all that stuff I understand your question mark. I don't have an easy answer for that I think the first time that we talked about it. I told you that frankly It would be easier to put a water bar across that road than it would be to put a culvert in there, but And that would take the water from one side of the road to the other and there's a Bump that you got to negotiate, but you know, that's how we handled the water on most of those roads Most of the time when there were just hunting camps up there as we just had water bars across there's plenty of water bars on that road right now I have a question maybe Chris can answer this but on that on that right hand side as you're going up the narrows If they ditch that I see this This these rock this rock all over the town You put it in the side of of the in the dishes If that was dug out a little bit and you put some I I guess cobble size or rocks in there and fill that up That would slow down the velocity of the water in that drainage ditch It would slow it down a lot and it would Without putting a culvert in there The other thing it would do is when they when a walker comes up and plows the plows the road for us all the time That ditch is primed for all kinds of vehicles and trucks. They pull off to the right There they are in the ditch And in triple A has to come and pull them out. I mean it's it's ridiculous, you know, and people don't know it's there And that rock would keep people at least from going down that side So the here's the here's one of the drawbacks to spending the money on that rock The excessive amount of sand that has to be put on the ring road Um The stones becomes useless after the first season um my suggestion about the culvert was only in Lou of the degradation of the road And the time frame that it might take for the town to get there It seemed like a simpler solution to try to mitigate a bigger growing problem, you know just to go ahead and put the culvert in yourselves and Maybe solve some of the degradation of the road They're at least slow it down a little bit. The narrows are an issue. I don't know what type of materials in that embankment You know everything on Dennis's property is nothing but bony gravel Now whether or not That carries up through Along that embankment there may be some benefit to Uh Whoever you hire to take that material out of there depending on the type of material it is Um, they could use it for a road base or some other use So it might not be a total loss there Uh, but if it's just crap, uh, I know they had one telephone pole put in there on that embankment They had to shore it up there years back because it was going to The soil was so lousy that the pole was going to tip over Like he tried to the Brown It really wasn't sure enough. He just put a piece of pressure There Just to get it on the record too, the one thing I noticed this summer was I don't know if it was uh Just past my driveway the section road that actually maintains pretty good I don't know if it wasn't crowned well or what happened, but it would had already been graded once I think this year But when that pretty large rainstorm came It didn't fall off the sides It it rotted out the center and missed the culvert and then took all that water basically down It did a big right by my driveway, but then I think continued down some of that narrow Which really saw some of that degradation of the uh of that What we're not calling a ditch but a ditch section um, so you know if the if If that so again my question is is is there an expectation that the town crowns that section of road and if not Do we need to I don't I just again want to understand exactly What we should expect and and I think We live up there. We can see and probably have too many solutions But I think there are some relatively simple solutions that potentially could avoid some of the more major problems that we could see down the road So the town's Not obligated to as bill had said to put material on that road And if there's not a proper amount of material Putting a crown in it is almost impossible And that's where a part of your problem Comes in So when I go up that road nine times out of ten, I reach down and I grab the lever pull my truck into four wheel drive Because if you allow your truck vehicle to go up that road in two-wheel drive you just Turn up that aggregate that's there and and disturb it and then when the next rain comes there goes bye-bye Um, I do that on almost any steep road wherever I am During the middle of the summer. I'll pull if I'm up on cross the hill. I'll pull it into four-wheel drive just To try to save the road and the other thing is where possible You try to drive not the same place all the time Try to Beat the road more more evenly, huh? Right. Yeah. Yeah, because once you start wheel tracks that gives the opportunity for water to travel in in that and that's you know So there's a lot of factors involved in the reason that road is going to hell um what I was trying to do was to See if we could get the town up there to try to mitigate the problem Sooner than later, uh, and then moving moving forward I know you will bill. I know you will and moving forward to try to be a little bit more proactive until Something more significant has done either by your residents And or by the town Yeah, we have this same issue just so you know and it's very little of the road is ours And because it's relatively flat. We don't have the issues that you do but the people who live up on Sweet road and up on the top of loomis hill Who go to stow regularly want to go through the waterworks? And the waterworks is a class four road. It's the town of stow's road for the most part And I think stow tries to grade that road once a year. Um, they don't do anything else there The the utility district which used to be the village of library has Has two dams in stow on that road and a couple of different, uh, spring boxes on that road so we've We the village has worked on some of those bridges so it's We get the same kind of questions from other people now as I said that road is in ours And it's it's stow's to deal with And if it was as steep as yours, it would be the same issue that so anyway, I'll work with bill and celia Tomorrow and I know that celia is getting ready to work up on water hill. That's gotta be done But anyway, I'll see what I can do and if anybody wants the highway standards as far as Reclassification and what you need If you leave carlin your email or you send carla an email With your email address tomorrow, we can scan it and just email it to you rather than make 40 copies I have a I have a lot of empathy for all of you. Um, I hear your problem I also I guess I'm old school Class for roads we used to think of as hunting camp roads Uh, I know ring road has become far from that But the problem is I think if we if we make dangerous precedence in this town There are other class for roads that could you know, we Won't go any it it could go all sorts of different places. There are a lot of private roads I don't want a private road. We have chose not to improve our road to this I think our roads better than most roads in town But to meet the standard That we would need to bring it to town standards is crazy. It would cost us all as homeowners a lot of money Mansion hall Which I think and that's true. I mean, you know, we look at all these private roads that you know Or in the same kind of circumstances you are we maintain our roads and we all have to kick in money and That's unfortunately a little bit of a fact of life, you know I'm not saying this, you know, it's a little bit of tough love the way I feel Because I'm willing to pay to do my my road. I think kind of, you know, the town's willing to do What they can what they're what bill has said repetitively What we really need to do as a class for a road you guys all need to I think look at it as What you want to see your road and it may be put, you know, have a fun put together and Bring it up to what you feel you want to I think that's a reasonable standard and as taxpayers because it's not just your road It's all the other roads. It's all the private roads that you know, where does it all end, you know You know our town could go bankrupt, you know with uh Fixing, you know providing services for every one of these roads That's my thought. Can I ask a quote? What's the length of this road? One mile up the Ring Road Has to the complete top just over one mile that includes the private section So a little I would say a little over two thirds of the mile to about Driveway Six tenths of a mile to the to the cul-de-sac. Okay, thanks More than a mile My name is Dennis Roland. I live at 633 ring I've learned tonight the cul-de-sac is at the bottom of my drive. I've only lived there five years I just want to make the point that I keep hearing you say it's a class for a road and it's up to the residents to do it but The town I guess Is allowing continued development up there Who controls that? It isn't the municipality The town has the town has zoning regulations. Do you permit it? Yeah It's their private property rights, sir We would have a lot more problems if we told people you can't do anything with the property that you own and by the way What's the catch 22 though? Well, it's it's not a catch 20. We have no control of them Decides my problem. You had control of where you decided to buy property and when you decided to live and as as Was just said a minute ago and as I said a minute ago the class four road that the town has chosen Not to not to spend money on those class four roads. So there are people mansion hollow Harvey fire Pinnacle Ridge Meadowcrest Lane where people have come in Since the you know 1970s probably and developed roads and They they built the roads. You didn't have to build the room if you had to build around to get to where you are Then the road might look a little bit different than it does Or maybe you wouldn't have decided to buy there at all because that's a long way to build a road and It was a pretty good shape when I moved in I had to say There weren't any issues, but we are seeing continued development now One right after another and and Schindler is going crazy up there And we've just had one continual Highway of dump trucks and craters and loggers starting at 6 30 in the morning Is there no control over that well fortunately there is there is a degree of control you have Zoning regs that only permit certain size lots that cuts down on the potential for housing development Also go to the brb You have regulations present information when those permits come up that you you're against them, you know I know as a former brb member that We usually would not hear too much. It was only maybe a neighbor or two that would object and I don't disagree with what you what you just said It's a problem, but we can as bill said prevent private Owners from doing things but you have to realize some of the implications of building You know on class four roads and other kind of circumstances. It's just that we're Shooting ourselves on the foot by putting some sort of control on what goes in there There are controls. There are there There are a lot size requirements. I think up in there. It's at least 10 acres. There are there are high ridge high elevation controls about what the Properties can look like what the building envelope is supposed to be but you know people We're in the 21st century now and people have more Disposable income than they used to have they have much better vehicles than they used to have You know when I sign If you're developing an individual lot, it's unlikely that you need an act to 50 permit, but There are many times where folks apply for development and they need to get A municipal impact questionnaire done and as the municipal manager. I said, yeah, we we have a fire department and they will go if the bell rings but Frankly the likelihood of the fire department getting to your house before it's it's a cellar hole is pretty slim We're not going to build another fire station at the bottom ring road So, you know, and I don't live pretty close to the fire station No water Okay, unless there's any more questions or comments I think we can close it out here for the night I'm like, thank you all for coming. Yeah, thank you all for coming here. I appreciate it and uh Thanks for the photos, Bob. I tell the story Take a motion to adjourn The party