 So we're here visiting with Larry Wagner of the South Dakota Grassland Coalition. My name is Tans Herman. I'm the state grazing lands soil health specialist with NRCS. And obviously top of mind for anybody in Ag, particularly those that are pretty reliant on perennial forages, is the topic of drought. And its impact, the cumulative impacts on forage production when not only last summer, but also last fall and last winter were dry. And thus far this spring we really haven't even seen that much moisture, which is probably heavy on the minds of many in production ag with livestock on range. So Larry, I hope you'd be able to tell us a little bit of background on your recognition of when a grazing plan and contingency plan or drought plan became necessary for your operation. Well, it's, to me it's always necessary because in South Dakota we're always real close to a drought. So you better have a plan all the time. And it's great when you don't have to use it, but that way when it becomes necessary, you already got your plan. It's never too soon to have a plan. And so I understand that you probably see your grazing plan and your drought plan as one and the same. But just the grazing plan component of it is that what's that look like? Is it planned based on a normal year and then you make adjustments up or down? Yeah, pretty much, yeah. Larry, I hope maybe you'd be able to talk through some of the either alternatives that you think through or discuss if you've got partners involved or actions maybe you've already taken as we're kind of heading into that second season of the drive period. Well, like last fall of calling cows already, because what you could see last fall that was going to have been, have problems this spring because it was from the drought from last year it wasn't as severe as it is now but it was starting and you knew you were going to be short of grass. One of the things that I know the NRCS, we call it the South Dakota Drought Tool that can be downloaded on the NRCS website, excuse me one of the things that it uses as a forecast model for production is that previous falls moisture. Up to 25% of this year's production can be tied to the months of August, September, October, you know kind of before freeze up because it all has that cumulative effect. Things I've noticed with grass just over the years, your production has a lot to do with your fall moisture and you know grass to me starts growing before we see it turning green and if you don't have, if you're dry then that grass just never comes in the spring like the previous fall you had a lot of moisture to me it almost has to be there before the ground even thaws out or not thawed enough to take in moisture and that's been my observation over years that the fall moisture has so much to do with the next year's grass crop. We have a lot of different species like western wheat grass, the state grass of South Dakota, it sends out tillers in the fall and they need to get started. And their productivity or even the number of those tillers that are starting new growth is heavily dependent on that. In ag often we get to the point where we really identify with the things that we do, whether we're a great farmer, we love our equipment, if we're a great rancher we love our livestock, in most cases that's beef cattle. That can sometimes come at the expense of our natural resources because we put too much precedence with one thing or another. Larry, I wondered if you could speak to the way you prioritize the resources at your disposal on the ranch? Well the resources, the soil health and the grass which of course go together to have good soil health, to have good grass, that's got to be your first thing because you can't have livestock without something to eat. And that's why the resource, the grass resource has to be your first priority to me. And it just goes to everything, I mean so you've got the good grass, you've got good wildlife which enhances your grass and that all goes together and then when that is all good then you can start adding your cattle to it. But you've got to have that, that's the first priority. So if I'm hearing you correctly that that is a result of healthy functional soil? Right, yeah, that's what you use to manage your grass and use the cattle. And those same cattle that can be used as a tool to benefit or enhance the grass production can also be the tool that degrades it if we let them stay too long? Yes, if we don't manage it. Management gets to be a real important factor on that. I hope you'd explain to the viewers Larry just how you manage the ebb and flow of forage production from one year to the next with your livestock at your disposal? Well, by using yearlings and I want to say two types of yearlings, the ones that are going to be sold, you sell them sooner. And then the other thing is by, you know, like in a dry year, not keeping as many for replacement, have cut back there and help keep your cork howered. Well, you call deeper on your cow herds and older cows, any problem cows. And it's amazing how many of them cows get by when it's when you've got plenty of grass, but when you don't then, well, she can go and she can go. Yep, I love them a little less. Yeah, yeah. If somebody's got to go, you're the one that's going to go. Are there certain characteristics that you watch for as far as making those cold decisions? Well, it's just what I, I guess, probably what I would breed for, you know, disposition and flesh ability and things like that. Just what will make you a good cow. And if she's not, oh, ain't like fleshing or, and it just don't like the phenotype or something. It could be beans, could be eyes, could be bags and stuff that, anything that's a problem. You know, talking about that drought ain't all bad because it cleans up a lot of herds and gets rid of a lot of problems with it. That, oh, well, then we got plenty of grass, we'll keep her another year. Well, now it's, well, somebody's got to go, she's going to go. You probably should have sold three years ago. Yeah, you know, see this as a crisis or we can see it as an opportunity. And what you're saying right there about drought cannot, isn't always a bad thing. That's an opportunity to make some strides in your genetic screens. Yep. Yeah. I don't think it's, I think it's harder now to make decisions than it's ever been because we are in a world market. And the way our everything is being in a world market, what all goes on in the world anymore. And right now things aren't good. Don't at least my thought aren't aren't good in the world. And so how do you make these decisions? And I guess the only thing I would say you just have to plan that they're going to come out right and just keep going forward. You never going to out guess it. You're not going to be in the right. But to me it's just another thing that's added to the difficulty to make a decision. It probably boils down. There's so much that you cannot control. Things that you can include the decisions that impact your herd, your land, your production cycle. And your livelihood and yeah, yeah. Quality of life for you and those that depend on you. Yeah, it's a, we've had a real change and that other generations have not had to deal with. And so it makes it a really a new thing to work with. But along that line, we're more technologically capable than we've ever been before. So the person has a mind to research what has happened previously, whether it's markets or precipitation records or whatever, looking for those cycles and things. You can shelter yourself as best you can. And also in times of, I guess I'll use the word crisis. I don't know if it's quite that bad, but if you're watching this, that always seems to make opportunity to. Yeah. A lot of times it takes a crisis to make an opportunity and you just got to be watching it and take advantage of that. Look for the positive. Look for the positive. Yeah. I think statewide there are folks that are dependent on perennial forages and livestock for their living. And they're out of grass. They probably almost are already out of feed and feel like their backs against the wall. And maybe they are in crisis mode. What first steps would you suggest somebody that finds themselves there? What should they do first? Who should they reach out to? My first one they should reach out to is their banker. The financial thing. Talk this situation over with your banker. Don't just go in and tell the banker, well, it was dry and I sold all the cows. Talk to your banker. Maybe he could help you or somebody that I guess like a mentor. What your options are just don't. Maybe you don't have to sell all the cows to sell part of them or whatever. And then all is you're doing that. It'll rain someday. And so then. How am I going to be positioned when the rain, my grass comes back. And how am I going to handle that? What should I be doing to. Get back in the cattle business. That you know, let's just say for the one who does have to liquidate entirely for any number of reasons that might cause that. Maybe they don't have to own the livestock that graze that grass. That is right. That'd be. And I. Like today corn was over $8. There's always going to be people looking for pasture to rent. And you can always rent your pasture out. And get started back in the cattle business that way. And that may be worst case scenario, but for some that might be the first and best option if you're also working a job in town or what have you there's any number of situations and every operation is unique. Right. Every operation is different. But that is. To me, the first thing you want to talk to your bank or your financial person and also. Your accountant who does your taxes and see how this is all going to work out and things like that to. To your best advantage of doing these things. So most ranchers kind of know what they're what they're capable of producing in a normal year. I wondered if you might be able to express to us. How important planning the annual grazing rotation on on the Wagner ranches just because it's not the same every year, even though you know basically what the ranch is capable of. Right. It's. Like right now, you know, it's a moisture thing. And there's other years, there's other things, but. My rotation is, you know, start really early on the problem grass. Because. I like bone grass. It just makes like two crops out there. I mean, you hit that early. Use that up. And then that gives you your warm seasons. Will come on really good. And it don't seem like he uses that much moisture to make it much different than that. And. I anything, I guess. I. Like, which I'm saying you paying for it. Anything that's using water on your ranch and growing. You can harvest through cattle. At certain times cattle eat everything. I mean, they eat your tistles elite anything. And so long as you have spent the money, I call it money, but actually water to grow that. You better be harvesting it. Get some good out of it. You mentioned to me off camera that you try to start. Most of the time in a different pastures here unless there's a specific objective. Maybe there's a lot of room. Maybe not necessarily. Yeah, it. And. I guess I found that. You know how grown grass is you never have enough cattle. And so I try like two years in a row hit it hard. And then. Probably the next year. I'm off of it and hit a different pasture for a couple of years and kind of rotate that way to. Set the grown grass back as far as I can. And you know, I mean, there's only. You can only take it back so far and then you start. When there ain't enough out there. Then your life stock starts. Suffering, you know, you got enough feet. Yeah, there's a point there that. And it's not only the livestock is that your soil might be. For erosion or at least higher temperatures that have a negative impact on soil biology. You're getting the ground to bear. Yeah. Yeah, the balancing act. That's the art of management, right? Right. It's not always the same. And. Good examples that we can use it for our benefit. It's here. We might as well use it. Right. Like I said before, you fade for growing it by using the water. Yeah. There was really something I've seen this winter that I've never ever seen. In pastures that was really not grazed down that much. But with being so dry and no snow. That grass. Got so brittle. And with our high winds. These pastures are getting bear and bear. Every day the. It's just blowing off in these winds. I've never seen that that. You can visible see these pastures getting bearer as time goes on from. Just being so driving. No snow cover nothing to. Keep keep that grass a little moist. It just wins these high winds. And so dry. It's got it so brittle. It just breaks off and blows away. Pushed it down and got in contact with the soil. Probably anchored it. Yeah. A little bit better than we saw this winter. Right. Yeah, it was never. There was nothing to. Get it down on the ground. Yeah. Probably the best for the water thing is when we got real water. I mean. It don't make it. A drier year don't have to be dry this year. But if you're depending on dugout water and stuff like that. You know. We've seen. Well back before we had real water. In our area and that you know there was it was really hard to. Rotational graze anything because. You got a little drier year well that. The dugout is dry or just about dry and there's no water there. And so we got to keep doing the same pasture because that's the only water we got and things like that now it's real water. You just go to pasture and it's you got water there. It's. It's really made this rotational grazing really doable for people. And have good and good quality water that. Other other counterparts with the grassland coalition have shared their strategies. You know if the water is low maybe you can you can scrape or dig and access paths so that the mud and bogging down isn't such an issue. Riley shared that he's actually got a mobile pump unit that he brings to to pump out of the water pump out of the dam and actually fenced out the livestock and put it into a tank so that the water quality is significantly better for not only cows but probably almost more importantly the calves. Right. Years ago they did a study in North in Canada. They had 300 cows it was I don't know how big the passion but it was just a one. The health 300 cows and had one dugout in it. They fenced the fenced it in half right over the duck and part of the cows drank out of the dugout the other part of the cows they pumped the dugout so it was actually the same water. And in the fall the calves were. Nine pounds heavier and I think the cows are like 35 pounds heavier. Of course I'm a tank. With roll water in it. Cows were playing not too far away. How many times that cow come and drink water lay down and of course it's the same thing with the calves and that is your cheapest gain there is water. There was some program assistance that helped offsets a lot of the cost but certainly not all of it. And that particular the one I'm thinking of in particular kept track for what the ranch had to pay out of pocket for the well the pumping system. I think they installed seven miles of pipeline initially and I'll say a dozen tanks some words about in there. It only took them seven years to fully recoup all the cost that they had out of pocket after the program assistance to to recoup their costs on that entire water system and it was solely attributed to the extra gain on those calves. The average over those seven years was 50 pounds heavier on the calves that we need significant and it was a situation where they were reliant on surface water up to that point that gets mucked up. The quality is lower. It takes energy to process through any of the any of the pathogens and things that might be in the water and whether it's real water or well water or even a clean surface water sources from the site. It's just overall better for animal health. Right. Yeah. And I would say the biggest part of that is just the consumption of water because it's easy. They will go drink more and so then you have more gains and better health and it. Yeah. Don't want to overlook our water needs.