 Good local time everyone. Live long and prosper everyone. Sure. I'm not only hearing you, I'm also hearing you as of about 10 seconds ago. So I'm now hearing two versions of you just like in the movie Tenet. I'm in the administration office. I'm also hearing my own voice as I answer your first question. So it seems that we're having a lot of feedback, but from ourselves. And this is how my office looks like. It has a recording of our conversation, has a very large whiteboard, a wall that we use to project ideas, that's a projector, and some sofa as well. So it is where I perform this kind of online interactions. It's my studio. My actual workplace is rather mostly in the social innovation lab, which is not a studio, but rather a park that everybody and their dog and their self-driving vehicles can visit me. Every Wednesday from 10 a.m. to the late evening, I'm there and everybody can talk to me. And I'm also there every other Tuesday or Friday too when I tour around Taiwan and use this kind of video conference to work with people. In Taiwan, we never had a lockdown. So the touring, while of course we all have to wear the medical masks that we ration out, but if we keep the mask on, if three-quarter of people wear it, the R-value is always under one. So it's all working pretty well. It never stopped. Sure. The mask map, which is a map that we use to ration, is created by the civil society people, such as the GOV-0 initiative and so on. And these are important because in the beginning of the pandemic, we have very limited production probabilities of people getting a mask on a free market as low because at the time, we only produce 2 million medical masks a day in a country of 23 million people. Of course, we will ramp up it to more than 20 million a day in the following months, I think by April or May, but in the first three months there was a real shortage for the medical masks. Because of that, we devised a system where everybody can use their national health insurance card that covers more than 99.99% of all the citizens and residents too, and they can go to their nearby pharmacies where the pharmacists are professional and trusted by the community to get initially only two medical masks per week, and next three medical masks per week, and now nine medical masks per two weeks, or if you are a child, then 10 per two week. This is important because the affordability and accessibility is more important than the number of masks you have. You can use, for example, a traditional rice cooker to clean the mask for reuse for a couple days in the very beginning, but if only a small fraction of people have access to masks, then the virus will spread in the community. So people helped instead of having to queue very long lines, you can see in real time where the pharmacies are, and if they are in green, it means they still have available stock. If they are in red, it means that it runs out of stock. You don't have to try arrow, and then it shows the number in real time so that when the people queuing before you make a purchase, you can see the number go down just a minute by refreshing this map, and this map is created more than 100 of them created by the citizens. We just make sure that they have the real time number so everybody can hold this system to account. It's always like that for each major disaster, and Japan is not strange to that idea too. I mean the application called line was invented because of the large earthquake, and people need a way to keep communication open, even if they run out of electricity, for example, they still can use the battery in their phone to send short messages to each other. So I'm sure with the typhoons and earthquake, Japanese people can understand how important it is for all the different sectors to come together. Just today, we have the anniversary of the major earthquake back in 1999, it's called the September 21st, and this is our national disaster prevention day. On 9 a.m. and 21 minutes afterward, like 9, 21, 9, 21, everybody's phone received this SMS that is a drill that reminds people to work together, to work with the earthquake disaster prevention and timely response. So this is in our culture and especially amplified around the turn of this century. At age of 19, you start a software company in Silicon Valley. At age of 24, you come out about your gender identity and you change your name. And at 33, you announce the end of your business career and become an IT minister. Is this accurate? Is there anything that's wrong here? I just want to make sure that we're not sending false information out into the world. Well, except that I'm not an IT minister, I'm a digital minister. IT, while being the enabling technology of digital, is actually different concepts. Digital is about the society, people-to-people relationship. IT is about the machine-to- machine relationships. Other than that, it is fine. I'm also happy that we fixed the feedback problem on our side. So this is good now. Good. I'm glad. I'm sorry about that. Yeah, you're right. So I think what's fascinating there is that the central component when you say digital is the people, whereas the central component when you say IT is just the machine. So we have a lot of people sending in a lot of comments. It seems that the biggest point of fascination for everybody here is how you started programming at the age of eight. You started studying programming at the age of eight. Can you tell us a little bit about what prompted you to do that? Sure. I had a few family relatives, a couple uncles, who already work respectively in the Acer, which is a large computer company at a time, still quite large now, and also one work at an information industry institute. So it's natural that they would have the programming language books in the bookshelf. So I just read those books because I was very into mathematics, but I don't like calculation at all. So I found out, oh, there is this computing machine that can handle all the calculation for me so I can focus on the concepts of mathematics instead of math calculations. So I started programming on a piece of paper using Pencil to draw the keyboard and then write the prompt and type on the paper like CLS Enter and then use an eraser to erase the paper screen. And after a few weeks, my parents bought me a personal computer. Well, so it must have accelerated from there when your parents bought you the computer. What were the first things that you were programming? I wrote, I think, print, double quote, hello world, double quote. Okay. Also, you remember your very first piece of code. So before we step into the other parts of your life, I kind of want to ask a question for all the Japanese people here who are here today. There's a lot of culture exchange between Japan and Taiwan. And I was wondering, was there any like anime or any kind of culture that came from Japan that you were fascinated by or that you followed when you grew up? Well, certainly. I read the original manga series of Ghost in the Shell, which is more like an illustrated textbook than a manga. But later on, of course, I would also watch the TV series and also the movie adaptation. And of course, it's Hollywood derivative called The Matrix. Oh, okay. Wow. So the original story of The Matrix is Japanese? Yes, of course. And I think the Wiskoski directors openly omit that is inspired heavily by Ghost in the Shell. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. So we have some questions coming in. Oh, how about this one? So we have a comment from Saito-san. Oh, that's the one, isn't it? Ghost in the Shell. That must be what it's called in Japanese. Wow. Okay. Yeah, in Mandarin, it's called 功可激動隊, but we are talking about the same thing. Okay, okay. Really cool. Right. So we share a lot of cultural background as well. I just wanted to kind of touch on that because I think that's something that a lot of people in Japan don't really know about Taiwan and how we actually share a lot of cultural background. So I'm really happy that we were able to speak of that. We got a lot of comments coming in. All right. So my next question for you is when you were 14 and you decided to drop out of middle school, can you tell us a little bit about that experience and the challenges you made during that period of your life? Yeah, I imagined that I will have to go to a senior high and then go to a college and maybe get a doctorate to work with the leading researchers, for example, on artificial intelligence. And nowadays we will call it natural language processing, which is my science fair project at the time. And so I like a lot of the professor's work, but my teachers tell me I have to spend 10 years to complete my studies before I can work with these people that I admire. But then I discovered there is a online website called A-R-X-I-V or Archive run by the Cornell University. It's still around. And so on the archive with an X network, I see that all the leading researchers at the time were publishing their latest papers even before those papers go to their journals. And that means that it's literally their latest research. What's even more amazing is that when I send them email showing them what I have thought about their paper, they actually responded because over the internet they didn't know I was just 15 years old anyway. And so before long we started working together. Of course I was doing quite minor parts, but still it's something. So I tell my principal that I don't have to wait for 10 years to participate in the creation of new knowledge. I can do so right now with this very new invention called the World Wide Web. And then she read the printout of email and web pages, thought for a minute and say, oh, tomorrow you don't have to go to the middle school anymore. And I will cover for you, she said, which means that she will fake the records for me because it was compulsory education. We're long past the prosecution years period now, so I can talk about this freely. That's right. For a public servant, of course, I think it was five years or 10 years, but because I was talking about something that occurred in 1996 that's many, many years ago already. And so I think I have a strange case of optimism. I think the public servants are the most innovative people because of that experience. Well, very interesting. So I imagine if I was to drop out of school, middle school, I would have felt lonely. I would have felt outside of, you know, have a general, I guess, majority society and so on and so forth. And I can imagine that I would have had certain challenges, but were these not relevant to you? Not at all, because I just started attending university classes because I had a research topic in mind. At the time, in addition to natural language processing, I also want to understand why people trust each other online so quickly, much quicker than face to face. Why is that? It's called swift trust. It's a phenomena that all of us have experienced, but the psychological and social reason of that is not very clear at that time. It's also one of the research topics I'm interested in. So I also co-founded a few startups to work basically in the field of, for example, C2C auctioning and online like meta search, search engines and so on, just to understand why people behave so differently and how we can make sure people behave in a pro-social manner online. So nowadays, of course, we'll call it a social network or a social media and so on, but these words were not invented back in 96. And so basically, I had a lot of community because it's a common question that's asked by many people around the time, the social entrepreneurs and the industrial people too. So you've been running so many different projects starting with, you know, before, I'm sure you dropped out of middle school, but when you dropped out of middle school, you already had a research question, which you wanted to pursue and understand. And I think there's so much intrinsic motivation in you to address these questions, to allow those questions to emerge from you and so on. And I think more than the many different initiatives you've been a part of, it's this energy which you behold within you, which is extremely powerful and inspiring. Can you tell us a little bit about what it is that moves you forward and what are the things that you are trying to realize or perhaps answer? Yeah, I think there are two main questions that both motivate you and that I seek answer. The first one is, if people have very different positions and backgrounds, how may we arrive to common values? That's question one. And the second question is, given the common values that we have, can we innovate something without leaving anyone behind? That's the second question. So a lot of my work is motivated by those two questions, which does not have a standard answer, rather it needs to be practiced from day to day. And how are these questions relevant to what you're doing today as the digital minister of Taiwan? For example, whenever there is a new technology arriving, people will think of very different uses. Like for self-driving vehicles, you can easily think of a thousand different uses. Some of them are for economic prosperity, but then people worry that it will also make a negative impact on the environment. This thing should be used for environmental protection. Some of them may drive the science forward, but then some people may worry that this will disrupt the social equality to make people who enjoy less opportunity, enjoy even less opportunity if those self-driving vehicles or 5G are only available in the highly developed municipalities and places. So for each emerging technology, there's at least four different positions. If you talk about the sustainable goals globally, there's at least 16 different positions on any new technology. And so that's relevant because the 17th goal of the SDGs are the partnership for the common goals. And the digital can help make the environmental, social, and business impact accountable to each other, translating different realms, business impact, environmental, and social impact into measurements that people can relate and interact, such as, for example, any pollution on the air, it could be collectively measured by people. Any water quality can be collectively measured by people. The ocean, every part of the world, can basically be better understood, like the climate and so on, if we join together to find out what happens to these places in which metrics that we care about. But without digital technology, there is no way for us to share and remix from those different data sources. And so the digital is there, so we can have a shared reality. That's for question one. For the question two about a common innovation, digital can help to make this innovation replicate in anywhere in the world, traveling by the speed of light. The mask map that I show you, which was invented in early February this year, gets running in Korea by March. And I met with video, many people in Korea that brought this innovation there in one short month. Some of them are just 14 or 15 years old. They are very young people. And they don't speak Mandarin. Fijian Tian, the person who wrote the map, doesn't speak Korean. But they both speak JavaScript. And that's enough. And the innovation can spread very quickly. Thank you so much. There's a lot of things that I do want to ask and be inspired from what you just shared with us. But I want to move on to the output time because I want to provide everybody a time to think a little bit as well. And before we go into that, there's going to be a little video. Okay, Audrey. So today's output, the theme is creating new landscapes. And what we want to inspire to the members that are here today is agency and empowerment. And the three sub-questions within this theme is, number one, what is one thing around you you want to change? Number two, how do you want to change that one thing? And number three, how do you think you can participate in that change? So how do you think you can create that change? And Audrey, so I want to ask you, how is there anything that you are working on right now that fits within the prompt of today's output? Yes, you talk about creating a new landscape, but it occurs to me that I'm now occurring to you as well as the map in portrait mode. It's not landscape. So if I rotate, it becomes landscape. And so I think what this shows rather is a very simple idea that the web server, the person who code what you see is not the one who has the final say to what you actually receive. There is agency, even in your browser, that you can use to make sure that you do not, for example, get addicted to, for example, the Facebook feed. I install on my browser something called a Facebook feed eradicator. It literally takes away the Facebook feed to me and replace it with a famous quote by a scientist or a philosopher. And so the part of Facebook that makes people addictive is invisible to me. It's like an advertisement blocker. But then the part of Facebook that are active, for example, dialing to a live stream, starting a messenger conversation or visiting a profile or a page, basically anything like I search for a hashtag and participate in conversation, it's intrinsic. But if you keep refreshing the feed is extrinsic, it's determined by the algorithm. So by installing an extension to take that away and only keep the intrinsic part, I regain agency in my relationship with Facebook. That is just one example. And you can do so just search Facebook feed eradicator. So there requires the intrinsic motivation to create that change, I'm sure. And the hope today is that this serves as an opportunity to exercise that intrinsic motivation. So for the Japanese users that are here today, I want to show in the display screen of what the prompt is today again. So I want to ask a little bit about your experience in Taiwan as you saw the change in law around transgender marriages in Taiwan. Can we use that as an example, perhaps, to think about this output, perhaps? Sure, of course. In Taiwan, just by way of context, last year we made sure that regardless of people's biological sex, they can marry, but there's an important difference. In Taiwan, before 2007, when two people marry, it could be through a social ceremony where essentially their families marry, it's just they are representatives of their families. But after 2008, it's married by registration only, which means the two individuals wed instead of their families wed. And I think in Japan, there's also such a generational difference when it comes to thinking about marriage, whether this is a family-to-family relationship or whether this is an individual-to-individual relationship. In Taiwan, if you are a homosexual couple, when you wed, you only wed as individual. Your families do not form kinship like in-law relationships with one another. It may seem like a small thing, but it's important because we make sure that in Taiwan, when people marry each other, they understand it's their own choice to make. They must be of age of consent, instead of like in the old days, like young girls who are 16 years old. Even if they are not legally an adult, they can get married because their family basically agreed for them to marry. And this is of course not what we are looking for in the new generation. We also propose a change this year to even for heterosexual marriages to keep like 18 years old, 18 years old, no 16-year-old marriage for girls anymore. And so this is a new direction, a new landscape for thinking about marriage. It's individual, not family-to-family relationship only. Yeah, thank you so much. So I think that offers some inspiration for the members today or additional inspiration around thinking about landscapes that you want to change. In this case, that would be the system of marrying in Taiwan and having a specific vision on how you would like that to change. And then finally thinking about how you can participate in creating that change. So I'm going to now segue over into showing you all a video which will help you understand how to exactly participate in the output. 自分なりに考えてみることが目的です。 今回のアウトプットテーマは変えたい社会の風景を見つける 周りを眺めた時に違和感のある風景や 変えていきたい社会のワンシーンを見つけ どんな風に変えたいか考えてみましょう 回答項目は次の通りです 一、どんな風景ですか? 二、どのように変えたいですか? 後面有一個youtube還開著 所以就聽到兩個聲音 但是沒關係 後來我發現了吧 它靜音調就沒事了 Now we are recording the video. Thank you. 時間は15分間 それではアウトプットスタートです Exactly. We are going to be in Mr. Odori's camera. オードリーさんのカナラに降ります We are going to be going to... So everybody's worked on their outputs made their submissions and we have a lot of different works and views coming in which we will touch on later. So from here we start what is called the feedback time. So everybody submitted their work and it's fire high. We really value feedback. And so I want to ask you, how is feedback important to you in your work? Yes, when we first rationed the masks, the system that the civic technologists devised actually hurt some pharmacies, because they will collect the IC cards and then slowly swipe them and ask the customer to return in the evening to pick up the medical mask to save time. However, in our system, it would then show that they still have many masks available and gradually declining in number, and then people will show up thinking they still have some masks left, but actually they're just slowly swiping the IC card on behalf of their customers. And so it created a burden for the pharmacies to have to explain, and people also sometimes say, but this map shows you still have some masks, are you hiding them, and so on, creating social tension. And so every time everyone called the line 1922 can report this situation to us, and every Thursday we make a new version of the system, so to display the rationing rules and times for the pharmacy, to make the pharmacist a tool where they can click a button and mute themselves from the map. They will disappear from the map once their IC card collection is finished for the day, and so on. So feedback is essential in making sure that technology works for the people instead of asking people to conform to technology. Feedback is the social innovation's most important thing. I think a lot of people don't feel that they have agency over technology. So I think what you provided there is extremely inspiring for a lot of people who feel like they live in a technology-first kind of world. So I'm sure in your everyday work you exercise giving feedback all the time. Do you have any advice on how people should give feedback? You just give me that advice, and I will repeat, and I quote, un-mute yourself. I think that's beautiful. Un-mute yourself. Do you believe that a lot of people are too muted? Yes, and it's muted by other people because of the recording quality. When I sit here in the chair, your studio already muted me as we previously talked about, but I was not aware of the fact that I was muted. And so the feedback that you give me raised my agency, realizing that, oh, I can unmute myself too. I don't have to wait for you to unmute me. It's the same for civic participation. Too many people think they have to be 18 years old, 20 years old, finish the college, or whatever, before being a participation force in the citizenry. So that we make a distinction between participating citizens and people who merely live here, like the very young people or foreign immigrants and so on. But I think this is a useful, not useful distinction to make. To me, everybody who can unmute themselves through citizens' initiatives, petitions, hashtags, Instagram challenges, these are all the very different ways that you can unmute yourself, even if you are not yet 18 years old. Thank you so much. Do you have any advice on when unmuting yourself how perhaps to voice your opinions? Yes, wait for a couple seconds for the other person to finish what they are talking. Otherwise, there may be interference as we experienced in the beginning of this talk. And even though it sounds very cool in the movies, especially by director Nolan, but the other people will feel that, oh, you are interrupting me without listening what I have to say. So practice active listening. You can set a time boundary saying, I will pay all my attention to you for five minutes and listen to you, especially they are an elderly person or a government official like a minister. But then the young people can say, after you have your five minutes, I ask you to also give me five minutes of attention and where I will unmute myself and provide my output. And that arrangement, this called time boxing, is very important. And I see it's also what Inspire Haya is doing. So it's an art form to unmute yourself, but it's also equally an art form to know when to mute yourself. Thank you so much. So everybody, it's time to provide feedback to the other members' work. Everyone, it's feedback time. From now on, I will give you feedback on the other members' works. So please take a look at the video. Thank you Audrey. So we have 10 minutes now for everybody to provide feedback to each other's work. And I need to take two or three minutes to choose two or three works for you to review. So I'm just going to dive into my questions. Will you type it to the chat room here in the teams, or will you read it out? Kiyo-san, how do you deliver your work to Audrey-san? Well, from Ian-san's point of view, I would like you to introduce what's on the screen. So rather than sending it to a messenger, I would like you to explain to Audrey-san what's on the screen in real time. Roger that. What should I tell her? Should I send her a letter? Or should I tell her the user's name on the chat? Can I have the letter? Okay. Okay. So from now on, I will choose three works for you to review. Okay, I also chose two works for you to review. Okay, thank you. Audrey-san, can I ask you a question from here? Ian, I think Audrey might want to know how you're getting those questions, or the outputs. Yes, sorry, I forgot to finish the feedback loop. So I'm going to be taking screenshots, and I'll be sending that to Kiyo-san, who's on the system side. And that will be displayed on the screen, which I will then read out. Okay, so those will be in Japanese characters, and then you will read out in English, right? Yes. Okay, let's do that. So there's going to be three or four that will be in Japanese, and a few that will also be in English. Okay. So I will read them both out. Okay. Yeah, perfect, thank you. Okay. I will send Kiyo-san three works from now on. I will send all the works I have saved. I will send it to Sanato-san, and I will also send it to Hayahaya-chan. Okay, I will send it to me as well. Okay. I couldn't see all of them, so the order that came out from above... It's going to be. Yeah, it's going to be. It's going to be awesome. Audrey, is there anything specific in the latter portion of today that you would want to share with the members? Yeah, I think the topic that you discovered a little bit while ago, where we briefly talked about the common values and innovations to deliver those values, I think we spent quite a few time on the common values part, like rough consensus, but maybe not on the innovation part. I mean, we talked about the mask map and a little bit about air quality, but of course there's many other social innovations. And so, I mean, I can share a few more stories about social innovation to maybe reduce the plastic or to plant more trees, or I don't know, but I think the environmental focus can be more developed. That's awesome. Yeah, because mask is plastic product after all. So it's mostly a social focus. It's not an environmental purpose. Incidentally, I'm in the process of developing an app for planting trees. Here you go. Awesome. Okay, so definitely I would love to do that. And I really want to emphasize the how can I participate portion within that. So, yeah, it would be great to in those examples also address how can they participate? Yes, yes. How can you take your first step? I have an app that shows how many plastic bottles you save simply by like playing Pokemon, go to your nearby waterfilling stations and refill your bottles instead of buying new plastic bottles. And then you can redeem those for like teas and drinks and things like that. And it's very useful both to take care of your own self because of the heat, the extreme heat, because of the climate change, but like drink water regularly, but also just to build new habits because for people who are used to buy plastic bottles, they don't think that it's plastic. Just like many people don't think mask as plastic. But if you change their behavior for a couple months, they will go to a refill station almost instinctively to meet and chat just like Pokemon Go. I think it's a really good example. Amazing. I have a friend who's doing something similar in Japan as well. When you with these ideas, how do you think? Well, I suppose the refill one is a great example of civic participation because they can all register. Yeah, and also their own tea shops or whatever. Everybody can register to become a refill station. Awesome. So the app that I'm building right now is an app that gives people the power to protect and restore forests around the world. And we're working with all sorts of local organizations around the world. It's a donation app essentially, but people can give pennies if they want or a million dollars if they want. However much they would like to protect and restore forests that are managed by local indigenous communities. And we just finished a crowdfunding round and the app is in development right now. And I've been working in the field of environment for the last decade since I was a university student as an environmental activist. And there was always this, I caught myself between two haystacks of being a pure kind of soil type person, you know, of hands on soil permaculture and having a huge passion towards that. And then also believing in the digital technology, allowing more participation and access as well as open information that caught between those two haystacks of understanding which is superior, which I realized as I was reading actually more about your work, that is not actually the right question. And it's indeed more about how can they coexist, you know, cross-pollinate. Yeah, exactly. We are not in two worlds, right? When we talk, I see the plant behind you. And so in a sense, that's also in my room. And so this digital in Taiwan is translated as shuwei, which also means plural. So digital minister is literally a plurality of ministers. Anyone can be a minister to take care of the plant and the planet. Okay, so we have three more minutes. Okay, so Audrey, I have the different works from the students right in front of me. One is about shoplifting. And the person who submitted the work wants to decrease shoplifting. And at least one way that they can do that is by putting an IC tag on the different products. The other one is the schools in Japan are very low in accessibility because there's stairs everywhere. And it's very hard for a student who's in a wheelchair to go up and down. So this person believes that there should be more higher accessibility. She wants to work towards increasing that. Another one is about agriculture and how it's very labor intensive, but very little income. So introducing IT to agriculture to share information, develop new product routes, and improve productivity. And this person wants to develop an app for agriculture. Another thing is about schools in Japan and how a lot of what's being taught is geared surely towards the entrance exam. So it's not in Japan, one of the issues around education, which kind of is the reason why it's why it exists is that it's so one one directional. So that's one. Another one is about people who are hungry and begging on the streets. Another one is about food waste. So we have those 123456 works, which we'll try and cover. We don't have to cover all of them, but these will be the six. And if we finish early, that's fine as well. This is 30 seconds left. 20 seconds left. 15 seconds left. We'll go back to SportBee. 10 seconds left. 9... 6... 5... 4... 3... 2... Audrey. So we finished the feedback round. Thank you so much for your feedback. It was a lot of fun. We saw a lot of people giving a lot of feedback back. So much everybody for your participation. So from here, we're going to be going over the works together with Audrey. And Audrey will be providing his feedback towards each one of your work. How exciting. So here we go. Let's start with this first piece. Okay, so this is the first one. It's in Japanese, so I'm going to translate. So in Japan, there's a lot of shoplifting in the world. In Japan, it's a problem. And in fact, they say Japan ranks as number two with the most shoplifting within a year. And the person who posted this wants to decrease for the economic damage that it's causing. And the solution that she is offering or the way in which she believes she can participate is by attaching IC tags to the products and putting cameras within the store so that there can be heightened surveillance. So Audrey, do you have any feedback insights, perspectives you would want to share regarding this? Thank you. Indeed, surveillance is a way to discourage people's behavior if it is purely for economic reasons because surveillance is basically a threat that you will be fined. And the expectation of finding will make people less likely to shoplift. On the other hand, some people shoplift out of necessity or habit. That is to say they are in it for the exhalation of it, for the fun of it, basically. For feeling that, oh, I'm shoplifting. I'm a delinquent person. I'm cool. And that's one motivation. And that's intrinsic. Or that they really have an economic need. And of course, they're driven by hunger or whatever. The hunger part, of course, with the social safety net, it's actually easier to address with community support, with no wasted food, food banks, and so on. We can reduce the hunger-based shoplifting. But the fun, like, I'm breaking the law because breaking law is cool. That sort of shoplifting actually may heighten because when you put the surveillance camera and so on in, it only prompts them to also learn about cybersecurity hacking, about even more ways to work around the system and become even more professional criminals. And so I'm not saying that it's not useful. It may be useful for some cases, but it's also useful to also find outlets and to make sure that they become more creative people like white-head hackers who can also look into a system for its problems, to find its vulnerabilities, but you reward them for essentially discovering that, hey, here is a hidden way to shoplift. Here is a hidden way to get sprick into the password-protected e-commerce system. You can do so with a bug bunty and many other ways to engage those white-head hackers or even encourage those out-of-box thinking as part of education. Once they understand that the society rewards white-head hacking, then black-head hacking will seem very boring and not that rewarding because they will not be seen as community hero or national heroes. Thank you so much. I think one of the takeaways within that was that it's really important to address the contextual system as well as the, I suppose, the negative externality of the actual act of surveilling and that it may not really resolve the issue if you're simply focusing on the behavior of that one individual in that moment. Thank you so much. We have a lot of comments coming in. Sora-san, shoplifting is a profession, damn. Yes, it does definitely exist. In Japan there was a movie called Mami-bikakusa to the shoplifting family that won the Kan movie festival and it portrays a family in poverty who is a professional shoplifter, so indeed they do exist. Okay, well, I'd like to move on to the next one. Here we are. Okay, so this one's also in Japanese from Utchisa. So in his or her school there's stairs and for people who are not able to climb those stairs, just be injured or are on wheelchairs, they're not able to access the classroom. So she wants to, or she or he wants to make it possible for anybody to access those classrooms and the proposition here is to introduce or to act towards introducing elevators in their schools. Audrey, how is this one? Yeah, in the social innovation lab we not only build an elevator, but we also make sure that it can be operated even if you move very slowly, that it has voice guidance and that it moves in a way that allows a wheelchair to easily access it. And there's also a kind of sky bridge that connects different parts of the social innovation lab and it's built in a very sturdy way so that even people with a heavy wheelchair can feel very comfortable traveling on that sky bridge. It's very important of course, but of course there are also parts of the world like very high mountains where people want to experience, but it's simply impossible for a person in a wheelchair to climb, for example, to the top of Taiwan, almost 4,000 meters high. It's very difficult, it's very difficult. It's difficult even for able-bodied people. And so for these and also for very deep underwater like Titanic-like ships that people want to tour, again very few people in the world are professional divers that can dive to this deep and even if they can, each trip may damage the cultural artifact of that ship. So what we do is that we build self-driving drones and self-driving robots that goes underwater and goes to the high mountains and relay the information with 360 cameras so that people can put on their virtual reality classes and still interact with those outdoor areas. And so this technology has been used in classroom as well. I personally taught people in high school and also primary school in a virtual reality space. And in there I shrink my avatar to the same height as they are so that we become more like classmates. They don't have to literally look up on me. And this is also how we can put ourselves into each other's shoes. And with 5G technology, like with XR space, it's a startup in Taiwan, you can bring the headset anywhere. You don't need a Wi-Fi or fiber optic anymore. You can use the headset to scan your surrounding and immediately bring other people around the world into your virtual classroom but still enjoy your co-presence. And this is, I think, a very exciting area where digital can bring more people with different abilities who cannot travel that easily. Maybe it's all of us when we are 80 or 90 years old. It will happen to all of us. And that will still enable our social, even outdoor participation. So that drone example as well as that digital room example I think are great examples of technology, digital technology allowing higher accessibility and flexibility for people to share experiences as well as engaging dialogue. And in the case of, for example, the drone going into the higher mountains or other 360 camera devices going into the deep sea, that also expands our ability to experience these and there's everybody in the ideal world would have accessibility to those things. And in the example of the school, perhaps one innovative approach would be to go digital and allow everybody to participate inside that space. I think that's amazing. A very lively discussion which is happening in Japanese on the comments within the app right now around how difference in budgets among municipalities that allows or disallows this type of innovation to happen as well as allowing or disallowing the implementation of elevators. And there was even an example that was being mentioned here around how the elevators are only accessible for teachers. So it's very interesting that we have these types of examples or realities as well existing in our book today. Maybe you want to briefly respond to that. I would only say that in Taiwan we consider accessibility like broadband accessibility like elevator is a human right. So it needs to fit everybody's needs. Actually in our 5G deployment, we make sure that the spectrum auction, the money that the telecoms bid, they have a lot of extra money because we design the auction this way so that we reward them to first put those co-presence technologies to the most rural, most remote places that has the least budget for this kind of accessibility either online or offline so that they will not be excluded from the rest of the country but rather can be included through digital opportunity centers. And you are spot on when you say we can be all in the same classroom because we also have a program where a large municipal university student pairs with their companion in remote or rural places and show them essentially the world because they don't lack the broadband. What they lack is the understanding of the possibility that the broadband allows them to have. Thank you so much. I want to move on to the next one. This is the third piece and it's in English and I will quickly translate for the non-English speakers. So let me open this up on my screen real quick. This is a picture of me studying agriculture. Agriculture income tends to be low even though farms support our foods. The farmers' income is very low. Number two, introduce IT to agriculture to share information, develop new product roots and improve productivity. Number three, now I want to develop an application for agriculture. How is this one, Audrey? I think this is great. Number one, we also face an issue where the younger people are more interested in programming the drones than tending to the land. But fortunately, the drones can tend the land. Not only they can help the spraying, the seeding, the harvesting, all sorts of issues but also it makes sure that the young people instead of just doing things like all day long they can spend their time thinking about branding and hashtags and stories to tell and measure environmental impact and communicating to those social responsibility programs of large corporations and universities while their robots help them to do the farming. And I think this is important because the value of the land needs to be experienced by more people in order for more people to cherish the land. And so the outreach is I think as important as tending the land. If the part of tending the land is repetitive that's where robots can help us but robots cannot actually tell us their life experiences. Maybe they could in about 50 years from now but certainly nowadays we don't have robots that have a life experience as we do and so we need to share our life experiences more so I wish you the best with the app and also make sure that your story is easily spread by other people if it touches people and each person on average share to more than one people then you have a R value of above one. It's called viral marketing but if your story rather touches a person but that person isn't touched enough because it makes it difficult for them to share for example on social media then your story will then not reach a lot of people then you end up having to do most of the storytelling by yourself and in which case it's like farming without the help of the machines. Thank you so so much so it's extremely important that you are also being seen and shared and that there are other people who are well I guess this actually relates very much to your the concept of open transparency which you hold very important into your activities and being more transparent and sharing with the world is extremely important particularly in this digital age where that is the means of communicating with people beyond your immediate friends and family so yeah this app sounds exciting and this is the end of our feedback session there's so many ideas that were generated through this output session thank you everybody for your participation so sorry that we're not able to go through each and every one of them the works will continue to exist inside the app so please feel free to go out and check them out after the session is over because I've been looking through them and there's just other really interesting perspectives and really important issues that people are speaking about in this space so we are now entering our final round of questions we have five minutes left that's all that Audrey has to leave so everybody now is your chance please post questions which you may want to have answers to and I'll try my best to pick them up so I want to ask the first question which is around the point that we were discussing earlier around social innovation and your work and you mentioned that there were certain examples that you wanted to speak about which addressed the second question which you are exploring which is around if my memory is correct around digital technology and bridging the gaps between issues and I want to hand it over to you yes so when I talk about an app that goes viral I think of yesterday when our president gave the presidential hackathon award to five winning team one of which is called Cirque Plus or Fung Cha in Mandarin literally serving you tea and this is a culture in Taiwan where people can freely serve as refill stations so instead of buying new plastic bottles it shows how many people actually that's 5,000 people more than yesterday who downloaded this app and how many plastic bottles they have reduced simply by looking around in this map and see which refill stations are nearby and which kind of water they provide so that they can also rate and comment on the quality of the water and just like Pokemon Go gets the coins by refilling at different water stations and redeem it for the specialty drinks and agricultural products that's the partner in tea shops and so on are providing so it's both a way for place making for people to understand their culture around their community but also a way to get people who get into the habit of buying plastic bottles to get into a new game where their bottle to refill is just a part of the game but after they participate in this game for 2 months their behavior will change and they will no longer buy new plastic bottles and cause more sea waste and rather they will do this in the entire carbon neutral way while getting plenty of water which is important around this time of heat and extreme weather Thank you so much so that's a brilliant idea and we have a similar app in Japan so check it out so I think which will be the final question which is you inspire a lot of people through your activities and through your way of being and a lot of people here today are asking the question of how can I also be somebody who impacts the world positively and makes positive change and changes the world do you have any words of advice? Yes, so I will quote my favorite poet Owen who said and I quote ring the bells that still can ring forget your perfect offering there is a crack a crack in everything and that's how the light gets in so make sure that the next time you see a crack in something maybe a chance of shoplifting instead of doing anything that's for your personal benefit write it up take a photo share it with the hashtag and before long this crack in the society will become a social object that people can gather and talk about and innovate upon common values and so instead of just having one standardized answers as the last century's education system teaches us there will be many different possibilities that's offered by the whole spectrum of the society so don't do it alone do it with the entire society there's no perfect offering Thank you so much so we have one final question and two if we have the time so today you were able to communicate with many students today through this space how was that experience? Well, the experience is excellent I feel that we are literally in the same room I can even see the shape of the plant behind you it's beautiful sunlight I think the plant is there to remind us that although they are not speaking in human language humans are here as stewards as caretakers of the planet so all the thing that we're doing is not for our generation it's for future generations and the generations' ideas of what's a good world must not be foreclosured foreclosed by our generation's ideas of progress GDP of linear growth or things like that we need to make sure that this plant or its offspring is enjoying an earth that is better when we log out of the world than we log into the world Thank you Audrey final question can we change the world? Yes and we are changing the world right now the world is changing because of your participation in this conversation if you understand the idea that we're spreading and spread to at least 1.01 person on average that idea will catch fire and become the new norm for the society numeric model shows that when three-quarter of people in Taiwan put down the mask the virus will be gone and people understood the logic and then understand the epidemiology and did whatever we can to get three-quarters of people masked as quick as possible that's why we won against the coronavirus with no lockdowns but for each person it's really literally just washing their hands with soap and putting on mask seems like a small thing but it changes the world if you can understand the science behind it and teach it to at least 1.01 other person Thank you so much, Audrey this has been amazing and I think everybody has been inspired today I hope you have a brilliant rest of the day and thank you so much for joining us Thank you, live long and prosper Bye Audrey Bye