 Welcome everybody to another episode of the non-profit show. We're really excited because we have, as I told him, we have a luminary here today, we have Ken Phillips, AFPs, 2024 fundraiser of the year. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you very much. It's an honor. It's a huge honor. How many fundraisers are there in North America alone? I can't even imagine what that number is, and that you are exalted as the fundraiser of the year. That's pretty cool. There will be 30,000 of them. I've 30,000 of them I'm told when I get the award. Isn't that amazing? Their membership is 27,000, so there are 200,000 fundraisers in the US. Amazing. That is eminent. That is going to be happening at the AFP conference, or how is that going to be? Yes. On Sunday, it's coming Sunday. It'll be there, and I'll be there with a presentation, short statement, and get the award. Awesome. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. Well, congratulations. I know you've had a storied career in the sector, and so we're going to get into it, but this is really cool. When I saw your name announced, I got a hold of AFP and I was like, look, I need to get this man on our show, and we need to start this as an annual tradition of getting the fundraiser of the year, because it's really important, and I think as we learn today, you can inspire a lot of us, but before we get going too far in, I want to make sure we talk a brief moment about our presenting sponsors who allow us to have conversations like this with Ken Phillips. They include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leader, Staffing Boutique, Your Part-Time Controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy at National University, JMT Consulting, and Nonprofit Tech Talk. They are here day in, yeah, I know, they're here day in and day out. Okay, Ken Phillips, I mean, fundraiser of the year, that's a big deal, but you have been in the sector for quite a while, and you've also published books. Tell us a little bit about your work. Well, actually my work began as a kid. It really did. And I read the hero stories. I read the great novels. I was really influenced by St. Michael and the Dragon. And my dad always said, he was Mr. Man. Ken, Kenny, whatever you do, do it well. That's the manager. And my mom said, Kenny, whatever you do, do something good. And that's the fundraiser. You've got to be good and do something well in order to succeed. So that was my beginning. After I finished school, I had two offers from a bank and from an educational institute. My career was destined. How could I take the bank? I would have been rich now, but now I have a completely different set of experiences. My first was with a student organization actually called ISAC, founded in 1948 by a French and German and others, not to create peace. And it influenced me. My first fundraising was organizing a conference for a hundred students from across the country. And I raised $25,000 from the three automobile companies. That sounds like a lot, but today, I just checked this. That's a quarter of a million dollars that a student raised. That certainly gave me a boost to keep on going. So I worked at ISAC, I worked at Institute of International Education doing minority education programs. I worked at Save the Children where we changed everything, everything and really tripled this income. And then I was executive director at what's now called Plan International and we tripled the income again to $30 million, which is 64 million these days. So yeah, then I went to the Red Cross and helped them organize how they will have support for their national societies. And the really good thing about that is they ended up based on my recommendation, having a new bylaw for the board that enables them to investigate national societies, require them to do analysis of their integrity, including a peer review with a possibility of sanction. And they have sanctioned one of his member societies which lost all of his privileges and no money. That's what it takes. You know, I love hearing this from you and I wanna get into something that you've really, I think already shared in so many ways, but I love your approach that says fundraising builds a better world. I wish that we all had this like in a little sign on our desks, you know? It's such a powerful thing. And what does that look like to you? And I'm gonna ask you this question over the arc of your storied career. Has this changed or meant different things? I really got it from my beginnings I think and then had it reinforced with, for example, to save the children, I would visit very poor communities in countries around the world. And I would see what life was like and I'd bring that story back not only to my family but to donors, pictures, stories and that's what enables us to do well. Being a donor enables people to make a better world. And so the fundraiser is actually doing two things. Raising money for good programs that help people and giving donors something of value. I've had donors come up to me and say, thank you Ken for letting me do what I've done with you. Here's another 25,000 or whatever. You're helping two worlds as a fundraiser. It's truly amazing. Right. And I love that attitude because I think that's a missing link for a lot of us about the joy of being a philanthropist. And I think sometimes we just hear about the super big numbers and institutional philanthropy, but it's like my sister, the school teacher doesn't make a lot of money but really gives back to her community. And I think these are the things that we need to be thinking about. I got to ask you about like the, I don't wanna say the dark side but talk to me a little bit about what you're seeing in terms of negative public opinion and what that looks like and how that is impinging upon the work that we wanna do. The three sentences I hate most in the world are when I hear from a donor, I don't trust them. I don't believe they do anything. And all I get are fundraising requests. So this is why, and this is what my most recent book is about, you've gotta have meaningful trust. So that people will trust you. Who would give money to somebody, anybody that you don't trust? And right now, the data says 39% of the public trusts charities. Listen to that, 39%. Imagine if I said, you and I are in a meeting and we just interviewed all our couples. And I said, hey, 39% of you trust each other in your relationship. There'd be panic. And that's what there is panic in the donor community about, I don't trust them. So there are steps in my book about how to go about that. The second thing is, do they do anything? Well, it's not just saying, this is what we did because anybody can do that. We helped a million kids, that's not enough. How did you help them? What were the results? Six months later, two years later. Another organization I know is doing what they call retrospective analysis. So they go back 10 years later and see how those kids or whatever it is are doing. That's what donors want to see. The taste has to last. You have to remember that as being a good experience because you've got feedback, the communications part. Thank you for what you did 10 years ago. Made a difference this last time. I love that. And man, I haven't seen that very often but I absolutely love it. I think especially in education when you're funding a child's life and changing the trajectory of themselves and their families. Wow, what an incredible thing to go back and revisit that. Really a great, great solution for something that's a fresh message too, right? Yeah, and that's true for all of the activities of nonprofits, kids, communities, societies, freedom, democracy. These are all things that nonprofits make happen and support the environment. We certainly need all the best we can do there. And people want to, increasingly want to help when they know it's making a difference. You know, it seems to me like we see this approach when it's tied to what I would call milestone marketing. Like, oh, we're gonna be 50 years old or we're gonna be, have been in service for 80 years or for 100 years that we kind of stop and do that as opposed to having that be a part of our natural storytelling and the progress of our organizations. Yeah, yeah. No, it's what you do. Another example of when we were living in Providence, our house actually was fire bombed. And yeah, it was no serious one, but it was scary and we decided we had to leave or do something, couldn't sleep. So I went to a barely dysfunctional neighborhood group and oh, it's time for board members can, times for the chairman can. And, you know, since I know how to do planning, I know how to do involvement. We transformed that organization in just a year with, you know, people would come and complain and we'd say, no, go over there in the corner, five of you and write up an eight point plan, what you want and how you're gonna get it for sanitation, for please care, for fire, whatever you want and give it to us at the end of the meeting. And we had instead of 10 people coming, 70, 80 people coming, the mayor called me and said, Ken, can I come to your meeting? I said, no. Yeah. I said, that is unless you bring your sanitation manager because we have a plan that we want you to help us make come true. And that can happen at the local level in a very quick time. That's just a small, but a great one. I love it. Talk to us a little bit about looking in and looking out as a critical job and a critical piece of fundraising. You know, a lot of times we forget that there are two sides. We have what's going on within our organization and then what's going on, you know, with our community. Can you talk to us about that and how you've seen this throughout your career? Yeah, I've seen it all the time. What I see is that fundraisers spend 90 to maybe 100% of their time improving their fundraising, their marketing, their public relations, all of their work outside the organization. That won't work. That won't succeed if the board's not helping. If the CEO says, that's not my job. If the finance director says, I don't care. The program director says, you know, go do your, that's your job. And I have so many stories. It's at one organization, we had a great plan. We've tested it, we proved it work. I went to the program director and said, Charlie, can I get a million dollars from your budget to put in mine? And I promise you, you'll get so many good rewards. He said, yeah, he shifted the money because he knew I could get the results. Inside, yes, outside, yes. It took the two there to have such an incredible success. I went to a field worker session in Thailand with care staff, you know, like 80 people working with people and I'm talking about all of this stuff about funding and support and NGO development. And the guy stands up at the end says, Ken, I get it. Fundraising, it's my job. And he paused, he said, it's not only my responsibility, it's also my salary. Yeah. That's it guys, they understood it. For the finance director saying, yes, we can switch the categories of our financial reports to the categories of work you're doing. It is for kids, what you're doing in health, education, livelihood, home, family, et cetera. So the donor see, yeah, that's where my money's going. Right. You've got to get finance and program and the board and the executive to support you. Otherwise, the best fundraising doesn't work. And I can assure you that the best organizations that are growing, you know, there's some really getting big ones are doing that. They are doing inside very well and outside very well. And that's what they have to do. I've got to ask you this. I see so infrequently your approach taken to the internal team. And you know, I'm sure you've heard this a lot as well, is the outside team looks at the fundraisers and they're like, oh, you just take people to lunch. You just take rich people to lunch. And you go to gallows and parties and cocktail parties. And how do we have that conversation internally where we can share what our day is like? Do we bring our people with us? I mean, what does that look like? I think it's step by step by step. Fundraisers have to step up and lean, get up to higher levels of responsibility. And they do that through some simple steps like networking throughout the organization so that people are your allies, seeing what needs to be done and doing it. And even when you're frustrated at keeping doing it, you know, to get the executive to be more involved, for example, in funding, to get the program people to really understand, keep going. And then, you know, my last way to step up is to run a good meeting. Because when you run a good meeting, start on time, end on time, have a resolution, action, not boring, people will love you to run their meetings. So the way you get that is to step up to higher and higher responsibility. And as you succeed, you'll get promoted, you'll get advanced, you'll get, you know, a better salary, you'll get more respect. It will work. I've done it again and again, and I've seen other people do it. I love it. I've gotta throw a curve ball in here. And every Friday, we do a show called Ask and Answered. And people send in their questions from all over the planet, you know, about the nonprofit sector, and it's varied. It goes from fundraising to board development and everything in between. And we've had a couple comments and questions lately about bonusing, and I'm gonna use the word from bonus to commissioning fundraisers. And it's such a hot topic because the, you know, AFP and so many organizations have drawn a line in the sand and said, no commissions, but yet we are competing with the for-profit world in commission sales is so often. And I'm wondering if you could talk to us about that and what you're seeing and what you've seen over the arc of your career again. Right, commissions are so subject to abuse. So I hire you and you say, okay, 5% of everything I raise. And happens you meet a big donor who gives you $5 million. One meeting, do you deserve 5%? No, because the donor gave not to you, but to the organization. So commission fundraising is just, it corrupts and it drives people, it would drive people to get this year's income, you know, at a smaller level than a longer-term bigger amount. Two reasons not to do that. Bonuses, yeah, I guess they're okay. I prefer the career ladder that when you do well, you get promoted. When you really do well, you get a higher salary that not only recognizes what you did, but keeps you doing what you've done at that same organization. So good salary, that's the answer. Does a program director get a bonus because things go well in the program? No, no, that's his job for a job. The same with fundraisers. It's your job, do well. And then demand equal fare with the program people and the finance people. So I'm gonna push a little bit on this because AFP reports and they have been for a number of years. This wasn't just for the pandemic. That the average fundraiser is not staying more than 18 months. And if you ask me, that's how long it takes to learn a job and do it well and be out there and be a producer. So what are the things that we can do to really help build that longevity with our fundraising professionals and so that they're valued, they're staying, our investment in them is returned because this cannot go on the way it is. It's really a big, big problem. No, I think AFP and all the other organizations should be advocating what I call total organization fundraising, which is everybody is responsible. Everybody has a role to play. And if you're not performing something that supports your organization to become what I call donor attractive, you're not doing your job. You do your job because it's a good job but you also do it to attract donors. Very simple. And I believe and I will be at the AFP meeting next week and I will be advocating this when I talk with people. I probably will say that when I get my acceptance. Do my acceptance speech for my award. I love it, I love it. Well, what does that look like? I mean, it seems to me like for a lot of organizations, sadly that's somewhat of a new concept. I mean, it almost goes back to our conversation we had just a moment ago about internal communication, right? I mean, is that where we start to build that culture of philanthropy? Oh yeah, it has to be. You are active inside your organization. You know, maybe an analogy is if you go to your general practitioner doctor and he's only focused on, do you have cancer but he's forgetting everything else about you? Is that a good doctor? Total medical care. We all believe in that. Right. Total organization support for fundraisers. And of course for good finances and good program but those are already incorporated. This is what needs to be incorporated at the highest level. And that's an executive director and a board member responsibility. But if they don't do it, fundraisers have to fight. They really do in a nice way. If you want me to succeed this is what we need to do. That's what I've said again and again at save, at plan, at others. You know, you're asking for something that I gotta believe that some fundraisers don't even know they need to be doing or that's not part of their work. That they go to work and they open up their CRM and they look at their donor list and they kind of work that thing that's right in front of them. And so talk to me about how we get our professionals, our professional fundraisers to understand this and to embrace this and not push it off or not look at it. Fighting the data you've cited or the other one I remember so well is that the majority of fundraisers, 51% in some survey said they wanted to leave their jobs in the coming year. You know, that's a recycle. No company would put up with their marketing staff behaving that way. They know what's valuable. My answer is open up. And I'll give an example. I was, we were working in our organization culture at a big organization, 100 headquarters staff and I'm the executive director. And so we quickly agree that our job is to be passionate about fundraising, committed to customer service, obsessed with helping people, right? And then we need one more. And I'm looking around at a hundred people and a young woman stands up in the back and says, Ken, I don't think you even know who I am. I know you don't know what I do. I don't think you respect me. And she looked out the window and said, I wish I felt like a flower on a spring day. I mean, it was poetry. And the consultant who was working with us, boom in my ribs, open up, tell your fears. And I did for 30, 40 minutes. I told everything I was so afraid of that we wouldn't do enough that I remembered that child looking at me. I remembered all of these other things and am I able to do this job? Can I lead this organization? And here are my hopes, here are my dreams. And at the end, just this stand up kisses blowing and we adopted the culture of let everyone shine, which I think is a best culture statement I've ever heard. And that came from a young woman who actually spoke poetry. I love it. Well, and it really goes back to this internal communication aspect and how we think we know what's going on, but we're so, especially as fundraisers, we're so outwardly focused, worried about that group that we are entrusted to steward and then we forget the structure of our own organizations. It's a powerful message. Yeah, and so many of the fundraisers, especially young fundraisers are young women and they're doing it because they're passionate about what they're doing and they don't get the support they need. And I think it's almost a special opportunity for them not to be put down and not to be respected because they're not old enough or maybe even in some organizations because they're not male, step up and say, this is what we must do. We look at our results for the past five years. How can we get them better? I've always proposed three budgets for fundraising and everything else. One is really aggressive, I love that one. One is like significant growth and the other one is business as usual. And every time I do that, the board always chooses the middle one, which is the one I really wanted. I love it. And we achieved them and we exceeded them. And one group I did that and at the end of our first three year plan, the board applauded because we exceeded those strong growth goals because I did exactly what we're talking. Right, I love it. Well, I can see why you are the AFP 2024 fundraiser of the year. Ken Phillips, it's been such an honor to be able to chat with you on the nonprofit show. I think we're gonna start this as a tradition, my friend. The week before the big AFP conference where our leadership gathers and really the people that make the engines run in the nonprofit sector gather. This year you're gonna be going up to Toronto? Toronto, yeah. Toronto will be a lot of fun, be able to meet with so many different people. And it'll be really interesting to get the feedback from people that have watched your, you know, storied career. Check out ngofutures.com. You can see Ken has some amazing books, strategic planning and culture for nonprofits make a better world and 25 proven strategies for fundraising success. Lots of other things going on and yes. And this one also, they all have a 30% discount if you go on my website for all of April, 30% off. Awesome, thank you for sharing that. Well, I love your tagline, you know, your business working together for a better world through strategy, teamwork and leadership. And we certainly have gotten that message here today from you. You are gonna be at the AFP conference icon. I would say if you're watching this or listening, make sure you find Ken Phillips and get a picture with that posted because this will be a historic thing and really somebody to learn from and somebody who's walked in, you know, the shoes of a fundraiser and can help us understand how to be successful and why we need to be successful, right? Right, right, absolutely. It's a really powerful thing. And I know a lot of fundraisers have the weight of the world on their shoulders because they're keeping the wolves at bay as they say, you know, they're trying to keep the organization funded so that you can pursue your mission. And so it's a tough thing. Yeah, and be guided by something really valuable right behind me are my two slogans, Chinese symbols for love and for persistence. I love that. Along with lights and shining armor. Come on, guys, ladies, step up and don't take no for an answer inside especially as well as outside. I love that comment. I think that's been really a powerful message today and that, yeah, inside and outside. It's been something that I needed to be reminded of, Ken. So thank you very much. Hey, another thing that is really important to us is the amazing sponsorship support that we get and that includes organizations that are here to support your mission and they include Bloomerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leaders, Staffing Boutique, Your Part-Time Controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy at National University, JMT Consulting and Nonprofit Tech Talk. These are the folks that join us day in and day out. You know, we've done more than a thousand shows. We've been, we're now in our fifth year of broadcasting and so this is a meaningful group of people that support the Nonprofit Show. Ken, it has really been fun to meet you and to learn about your approach. I can see why AFP chose you as their fundraiser for a year for 2024. Very, very important. And like I said, if you're gonna be at ICON, make sure you find Ken, get one of his books and get him to autograph it because that could be something that really helps you. Yeah, it's been fun, Ken. Thank you so very much. Well, thank you so much for the opportunity. I love chatting with you. Well, it's been a lot of fun. Hey, everybody, as we end every episode of the Nonprofit Show, we leave with this message and it means, I say this a lot, but it really means something different every day that I say it. And the message goes like this, to stay well so you can do well. We'll see you again next time. Thank you, Ken.