 The question here from our dear friend and colleague, Lauren, is that as men have been painted as the brutal perpetrators, ironically enough, the culture has encouraged her to act more and more like a man and validated the expression of her, what feel to her like masculine attributes. And so here we have a subtle subversion of feminism that where feminism buys into patriarchal values and says, yes, women can be equal, women can be valuable, women can do the things that men have been doing and therefore be validated. So they're taking patriarchal values for granted and actually becoming allies of a patriarchy where women are inserted into the same roles as men. That is not a very deep kind of revolution. And in fact oppresses women. Lauren's not the first person, you're not the first person who's said this kind of thing to me that to dare to be feminine, like that risks, oh, you're playing into the patriarchy, you're acquiescing to your own objectification. Like what opinions and desires is it okay for you to have? And what are politically unacceptable? We did this, boy, this was in Berkeley, boy, oh boy, it was just a cauldron, but we did a, I co-facilitated this thing and one woman got up there and she's like, sometimes I just want to be taken. Like she was, you know, expressing this kind of shadow dimension of femininity that might get played out in BDSM circles and things like that. But like, where does that fit into it? You know, I remember as a young man, if you wanted to kiss a girl, you weren't supposed to ask. And if you asked, she was like, can't you tell I want to be kissed? Like, you're a wussy, you know, like, what's wrong with you? Like, can't you read my signals, you know? But now if you did that, like then you're kissing without consent or something like that. It's like really confusing for men because it's become so politicized. So yeah, we have women who, well, there's another thing here. It's fine to say, yes, let's validate and celebrate and affirm women's choice to be more traditionally feminine if they want to be. It's fine to say that. But if you say that at the same time as you uphold an economic system that only validates the male things, that's hypocritical and futile. So I think if we really wanted to overturn patriarchy, we would have to, like right now, if a woman wants financial security, either it's through dependence on a man in the patriarchal pattern of one woman essentially owned and financially like economically controlled by a man, dependent, or she's got to go out and work like a man and lean in, you know, and be the single mom or the working mom and put the kids in daycare and only see them two hours a day between daycare and bed. Like, there's a lot, I mean, that's a lot of people. So I think if we really were serious as a society, this is what I say is to the right wing like conservative traditional traditional family values people. I'm like, if we're serious as a society about validating and celebrating traditional femininity, like, we got to support that there should be universal basic income for all women. And I don't know, like, maybe men get half. I don't know, like, this is this really gets me into trouble to say that, yeah, we should have universal basic income and women get double what men get. Because again, you know, from a place of patriarchy, any acknowledged difference becomes grounds for oppression and domination. But, you know, and a lot of matriarchal societies, which is not the same as patriarchy with women in charge, okay, matriarchal societies are very different than that, we hardly really could even recognize them. To our eyes, they might look patriarchal. But in a lot of matriarchal societies, women owned the property. And it would maybe even be unmanly. And I'm not really an anthropologist here. So I might be making this up. But I think it was at least sometimes the case. It has an appeal to me anyway, that it was kind of unmanly to own property to because a man's got to be free, you know, he's got to go out and hunt the animals and bring stuff back and give the gifts to the woman, you know, and the woman is the one who holds the house, holds the family, holds the village, and the men are on the periphery, scouting things out, protecting against enemies, you know, keeping everybody safe. They're the exterior, and the women are the interior. And power is in the interior. So I don't know. I guess what I would just say is that we've never experienced anything but patriarchy in a mass society. All of our global societies today come from a history that goes through patriarchy and all the rest, all slavery and the domination of nature and so on. We don't have any alternative on a large scale. So in this arena, what I, my practice has been to just drop what I thought I knew and to be open to learning. And I think that would be a good start because our perceptions are so colored by immersion in patriarchy that we don't really know what it is to be a man or a woman outside of it.