 hey friends you're watching behind the scenes divine intimacy radio in a minute we're going to talk about heresy in the realm of the interior life prayer and all of that and also historically and then also current false teaching and junk in the church we have a ton of questions about all of this that will go through and but while we're wait well before we jump in there we have a webinar in two days March 9th Dr. Anthony and Lillis and I will be talking about the wounds of Jesus and the life of the Trinity via Lenten webinar to help you draw more deeply to to Jesus and his suffering and I think with that check out spiritualdirection.com forward slash events anything else you wanted to tell them about it's a homo is coming up it's a free event yeah that they can sign up for 50 Catholic speakers yeah incredible speakers so great place to just soak up a lot of really great content we're even gonna have spiritual direction breakouts which I think is really cool yeah and you're gonna be one of them right yeah and yeah and then if they want to learn how to pray considering that we're talking about false teachings against prayer yeah your into the deep is now a five-part series and they can also find that on there for free direction.com forward slash events it's scroll down it's called into the deep yeah and so can either be used as a parish program or individually for your own teaching or your small group so and it wasn't free to us it was quite expensive but we really believe we want the people of God need to be praying and drawing near to Jesus especially in these tough times and so we felt like you know folks would appreciate it and get it to more people if there was no barrier to the cost sometimes you know the negative is people think well if I'm not paying for it it doesn't have value it's very valuable but we want we'd rather you spend your money and time promoting it and helping others than you know necessarily paying for something like a product which we don't really care for that approach that makes sense all right ready to start the show yeah on your market set go this is Dana Stephanie Burke welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio haven't abreast I'm gonna do that again my voice is going bad excuse me stop reset this is Dan and Stephanie Burke welcome to divine intimacy radio your radio haven abreast your hermitage of the heart your monastery of the mine where we lift our hearts and minds to heaven to draw on the wisdom of the saints not the heretics the wisdom of the saints and the doctors of the church to help us navigate this tumult of life and so today we have Q&A on false teachings on prayer and the interior life and heretical stuff and so the first question is very interesting because it has a connection to my own past I stumbled across a book by a priest named father Miguel Molinos who seems to teach them pretty strange things are you aware of this book and is he off and this is why we name the show heretics because he was a heretic he was a 16th century what was called a quietist and so these are people who valued mental prayer very much but because of demonic deception they tended to drift away from the sacraments because they felt like they were elevated enough and so always in the presence of God they didn't need the sacrament sometimes they taught that they tended to not take sin very seriously which is very interesting parallel to non-christian eastern spirituality but they they would say well my spirit is pure so if my body is doing these you know bad things it doesn't really have an effect wow right I know wow so he was right so he was formally condemned as a heretic so my own connection though is I stumbled across his writings on a ridity when I was a Protestant that are actually actually helped me now that doesn't mean I recommend his works whether or not it helps you doesn't matter you know there are people who helped by false teachers and once you realize they're false you set him aside and know that the Holy Spirit met you where you were and and he helps you not that person so so anyway yeah and it and it led me to Saint Teresa of eventually into the Catholic Church so but I have no love for Father Molyneux God rest his soul he was an incredibly arrogant dude and spread a lot of bad stuff and he was rightly condemned in this in the 17th century 16th century so the next question is is centering prayer Catholic it's kind of a simple question right you know what made you know what made me laugh about that question why it's actually the title of a book right that we promote yeah yeah now you had an interesting experience with this book one time didn't you I did yeah we were doing by the way a marriage retreat in a very large Lone Star state to our West and a certain one start state to our West and at the book table we were putting out everything and I was talking to those that were helping us and the woman came up and saw the book started flipping through it and then started to argue and confront me about it like an inch away from your nose she did she did get up into my personal space and I don't know my my private my past experience as a Catholic school principal and as a school administrator makes me kind of unshakable sometimes so thankfully it didn't rattle me yeah you're very yeah it's like you know whatever but I did try to love her in it and I actually gave her the book and she threw it back at me onto the table so if if your first reaction to the question is centering prayer Catholic is one of violence and confrontation and anger that might be an answer to your question that it's not leading you closer to God that you're not finding his peace yeah peace that you're not truly finding him or communing with him in your prayer it's something else and so it's not a good sign yeah and then just to be like sensitive to people and to be deferential and all that a lot of people do desperately want to know peace and to know absolutely even the people who look into the occult yeah desperately or they're looking for something someone yeah it's just leading them someplace else yeah and you know so we're not condemning them in fact I wouldn't you know want to just encourage you if you if you're in the centering prayer realm read the book is centering prayer Catholic and it's by Connie Racini and forward by Dr. Anthony Lillis and I can say as someone who's been working with scholars for years on this on these projects and I mean the highest level of scholarship Connie is dead on target and the book is 100% accurate to Catholic teaching is centering care put prayer Catholic can you give us a synopsis in beloved spouse like why I mean it's it's not I mean why is it not a cash that's a whole show or two but fundamentally it takes father Thomas Keating is the you know the guru of it all and he he had a very pantheistic view of God he was trying to help people in the 60s and 70s who were Christians who were drifting off to the east and so he had a Buddhist come teach at his you know at his retreat center and it just did some really foolish things and he was incredibly poor-formed and theology and philosophy and so when he compared experiences in the non Christian realm to experiences in the Christian realm he did not have the formation to differentiate the two and so then he just spent the rest of his life rationalizing and proof texting oh this is what Teresa said and this is what you know Zen Buddhism teaches and they're the same when it's just not possible so it teaches that you can come to contemplative prayer through basically Buddhist means of sitting breathing techniques you know with an intention with an intentionality and repeating a sacred word that's the method he teaches that you can be that you are God and you know I always get people you know there'll be people in the con box say well you just don't understand you ever read his works decades with scholars a decade a decade with scholars I own every single book he's ever written super familiar with his works and it's not that I don't understand it it's that most Catholics you know a lot of Catholics will say this I've been a Catholic for 300 years and I read it and I didn't find anything wrong with it or I'm a deacon in the church and you know and I just want to say God bless you you were formed in the worst one of the worst times in the church yeah we were right you know I was because I grew up Catholic terrible formation you know it and it's hard to discern because one of the things about Father Keating and contemplative outreach in particular they used language that sounds orthodox but their definitions are different which I think is disingenuous and deceitful frankly but and and that's the hardest thing about his writing you have to read a lot of his writings to really understand what he's saying it and and understand that when he when he speaks of God he isn't speaking of the same God you know the Blessed Trinity that the average Catholic is because he teaches you become God I mean one of his summaries of the interior life he was asked you can find this on YouTube he says you know the beginning of the interior life is our spiritual life is you realize there is another and then step two you want to become the other and then step three realize there is no other that means now we have no creature creature creator distinction your God he's a pantheist or a a monist so anyway that read the book Connie Racini yeah now that was great I think that gave a little bit of a synopsis for people to at least understand yeah why the question the answer to that question is no right next question by the Ron Roheiser says we should pray hate and pray murder what is that about is this in keeping with tradition he also says in the same book that the devil is a psychological construct they didn't list the book but I think the book is called prayer our deepest longing I think is if I remember right because I did read it he did say the devil is a psychological construct which is a really unfortunate I'm not calling him a heretic but I wouldn't in a million years recommend anything he's ever written on prayer no not not at all yeah we I had a scholarly review done of that book and it's it's quite it's it's quite disturbing you know I think just like Keating there's good intention there but just too much of a departure from our tradition I he's just not somebody I would recommend anyone read who's looking for faithful Catholic content yeah I mean if you want to especially for us the idea that the enemy is a psychological construct is laughable well I mean who's Jesus talking about in the wilderness right or is the story just made up right so Jesus is not or the story is just made up I I don't know how you deal with I don't know you know I just think that that's incredibly foolish what is the difference between non-Christian eastern prayer and authentic Catholic prayer Jesus yeah right well honestly seriously right let's not forget to talk about has a cast tradition and the Jesus prayer as an example but the non-Christian eastern prayer is is obsessed with method so sit breathe you know hold your shoulders a certain way I always talk about this one show I watched with it I think there's a father John Main or brother John Main I can't remember if he's a priest or not and it's the his method is being touted as this wonderful thing by secular news station which ought to give you a signal then it's a problem that's a problem and so he to teach these students how to praise walking through the class and and he and he's he has this sort of erudite way about him and he to help someone one of the students pray reaches over very mystically and adjust their shoulder blades back a 16th of an inch thereby making them receptive all their shock growths it's really it's really I mean sorry to make fun but it's so stupid yeah and I think really one of the points that needs to be made is that we can't buy method receive contemplative prayer because contemplative prayer is a gift yes it's a gift from God yeah we can prepare ourselves by it we make avail ourselves through Christian meditation and spending time in prayer silence and an attentiveness sacred time sacred space sacred attention into the deep anyone we can do those things but in the end contemplative gift a contemplative prayer is a gift not something we quote-unquote quote do or manufacture yeah right when you're you're pointing you know you're pointing out a lot of the difference between non-christianese and and our tradition if I would just simplify it down to its most basic concept non-christian east is looking to manage thoughts and manage the the situation the the Christian tradition Catholic tradition is to fill the heart and mind with God to fill the heart and mind with the beloved other which has a profound effect and I think maybe when we get back we should talk about that effect because I do have a specific example of someone who was doing the non-christian eastern thing and the effect on the person was quite disturbing yeah and what happened to it in the fallout in the family so I think it's fascinating let's do that when we get back from the break we'll be right back so for those now that we're on the break real quickly holy spirit in the life of the church an overview of the action in the presence of the holy spirit throughout salvation history highlighting God's works of creation redemption sanctification so this is a course at the Abba Institute Dr. Cynthia Tulin Wilson and it starts March 10th that's in three days I mean you can still sign up go out to avala-institute.org and let's go back to the show you're ready on your markets at go this is Dan and Stephanie Burke welcome back to divine intimacy radio we're talking about paratix that's great false teachers on prayer I'm we're not calling all these people heretics with the the first question it was no I thought it was a playoff of politics paratix I thought that was kind of funny heretics and prayer I know but yeah so the first guy we talked about was a heretic I'm not the church is the one determined to heretic not Dan Burke so the rest of these were just talking about problems so before the break we were talking about non-christian eastern prayer what was what happened so Catholic family yeah married in the church participating in the sacraments the wife was very devout and becoming more and more so she was she was really having a transformation going deeper into prayer leaning in to the teachings that we were offering back in those days at spiritualdirection.com and through radio and events and stuff and her husband began to practice non-christian eastern spirituality meditation she was very concerned she approached me about it we talked about it I explained what the problems were she did try to talk to him about it he became very angry very aggressive turned out while he was doing this non-christian eastern meditation thing he was also having an affair with a neighbor and and it just devolved into absolute chaos with him leaving his extraordinarily beautiful wife and their children and devastating that family and it was just such a sad thing because he was dead set that that meditation was helping him it was helping him and bringing him closer to God while he was simultaneously having an affair so a real indicator that he wasn't meditating on Jesus he wasn't leaning into a relationship with God and the blessed trinity but rather was in some sort of manufactured demonic silence that opened a door a gateway really to hell for him and his family I pray that that's changed that there's been a reversion or something I don't keep in touch with the family anymore but it was just a devastating real indication of this is problematic and and that's not the only one it's been story after story after story of how people get involved in buddhism yoga etc the non-christian eastern thing religion and they just end up getting lost in it yeah I mean it's back to your other thing where you got confronted I would say the most violent reactions that I get when I teach or whatever the most violent might be the most yeah negatively dark energetic aggressive in some of it very aggressive while you get that woman right in your face are from those who practice you know these these these false teachings and the reason is is because the peace that they feel because it does produce a kind of false peace is is rooted in the demonic and so as soon as the demon is exposed with the truth it incites the person to come after you like it's just it's crazy to watch but the same thing happens with yoga and other non-christian eastern practices people just go nuts over it so back to the question what's the difference between non-christian eastern prayer and authentic catholic prayer it's non-christian east is obsessed with method they have no concern about morality in relationship which is an example of your that situation that happened to that woman here at your school so they but they so the the other thing is they conflate terminology they'll often conflate meditation and contemplation and they try to overlay it with christian terminology and you know people say well you know Father Keating is just using the Hezekast tradition and I want to say okay listen I've worked with a Hezekast scholar he actually works for us at the Aval Institute Dr. Joel Barstadt he's a Byzantine priest and a scholar and he's been the rector of a seminary and I asked him one day I said what's the difference between centering prayer which he was familiar with and the let's say the Jesus prayer and Hezekast prayer he said Hezekast actually pray he's they're actually talking to Jesus so repeating a word is not prayer I mean and of course in in scripture Jesus when they said teach him how to pray Jesus had a pray he said you know first he said a positive thing then he said a negative thing he said don't pray like the pagans do well how much don't yeah I mean what how much what more else do we need it is a direct violation of Jesus teaching to go to Buddhism or other non-christian groups to learn to pray and you know the reason people justify it is they misinterpret Nostratate from the Second Vatican Council which was the declaration on non-christian eastern religions where it says whatever is good we should acknowledge it it doesn't say whatever is good we should go chasing after it but it says it's a reflection of array it's it's not even the substance of the thing and I think really because I I don't know how many people actually know about Nostratate yeah I think at the core of it is we have had generations of of parishioners of people in our church that have been lost by poor catechesis they are searching for God and so when one of these teachers presents themselves one of these books ends up in their pew or at their church because they're being passed out by somebody or a malinformed priest or whatever they they think oh finally I have this longing in me and I'm going to find an answer here so the desire for prayer the desire to be one with God is innately created in each of us it's a good desire yeah but we need to stay within the confines of what is good and holy and right and and proper and with and in keeping with what Jesus taught us and what holy mother church teaches us in order to stay safe we must stay safe within holy mother church when we start to step out then we're putting ourselves in danger yeah I mean I agree I totally agree with that next question I'm reading a book by father Richard Rohr he seems to teach that we should empty our minds in prayers this is this the is this right I mean just to summarize the question you know he I would say is one of the worst what the other day I listened to a video of his where he was equating Buddhism and Christianity and just some of the weirdest weirdest stuff I mean his his his is off the rails I mean if they're I like I said I'm not one to call anyone a heretic that's the church's job it wouldn't be a hard label to put on what he teaches I'm it's shocking that he's in good standing that's you know people say well how can you say that against the priest he's in good standing it's like well there's plenty of priests who are in good standing who are off the rails it's just the church has lacked its lost its will to discipline and doesn't care about it anytime some yeah as well I mean we just had a serial abuser set free by the Vatican so Richard Rohr is is is the worst of the worst I wouldn't I would just toss it that's good if you have a bird gauge and you need some lining that would be a good use of that book my wife's going you are so imprudent it's just that bad I mean it's just to you know welcome to my world not Catholic all right what do some authors seem why oh this is worded a little funny here why do some authors seem to use the word we use contemplation in the same way as if there is no difference I thought there was a big difference well you're right there's a big difference so there's two camps that do this one is orthodox and one is not the Ignatian tradition unfortunately orthodox Ignatian tradition unfortunately uses the two terms interchangeably the karma two terms meditation and contemplation the karmalite tradition reserves meditation I mean contemplation for that you described it earlier said the gift the gift the higher order and I and and somebody might say well how do you choose between the two well I would say Ignatius is not a doctor of the church John of the Cross is Teresa of Abel is Teresa of Lissue is you know stay with the doctors of the church stay with the doctors of the church not only that when when you receive the gift of contemplation you will know and there will be no question so it's it's not like you know if you're not really sure if you've had if you've had the gift of contemplation or not then you haven't had it well and I will say look you know an easiest easiest way to understand it is if you're still an habitual mortal or venial sin it's not likely you've known contemplative prayer in a substantive way you may have had some tastes some encouraging encouraging movements from God but and if you haven't practiced mental prayer meditation every day every day for years persevering past habitual mortal and venial sin it's not likely that you really understand experientially what it is though the Lord does encourage us the other way that it's used in an orthodox sense is pre 16th century the the terms didn't have as much clarity as they did post 16th century because of the Carmelite doctors so you might even hear Dr. Lilas talk about kind of contemplation he's completely orthodox in a little but the worst use is among you know what were the paratix who make no distinction you know they're the the folks who are constantly distorting prayer like Father Thomas Keating Father Richard Rohrer Father Ron Roheiser okay um and by the way I hate talking negative and using names but I think and and I can't even remember the last time we've done anything like this and done that but people ask and they're struggling and and and if we can teach in a definitive positive way but sometimes it doesn't go far enough because they don't know who to just say no i'm not going to read any of them well there's a list of trusted authors right there is uh that Connie Rossini put together uh she publishes out on authentic contemplative prayer in uh on facebook you can find it and they're just authors that she has researched and she's just trustworthy and down to the minutiae down to be trusted totally true um okay so why so they so yeah that's why uh so oh we're gonna get let's see if we have any more time uh so we're about we're about right ahead at time but I think I'll let you answer this last question stuff it feels like I'm accomplishing nothing in prayer how do I know if I'm actually praying or not it's a really two different thing well okay so I'll answer it a different way the question is am I actually praying am I growing in holiness two ways um are you growing in virtue and ask somebody close to you if you're growing spiritually chances are if you are not growing in virtue and if you are not becoming more loving more giving more you know self-denying and growing in virtue then the prayer is probably not authentic um if if you're spending a lot of time in prayer and uh your the use on the internet who you are at work and at church and school or whatever out in the world is all different then you're not authentically growing in virtue so I virtue is really virtue i.e love and humility is really is the ultimate measure of whether your prayer is authentic yeah and if you're if you're in the gospels and you're seeking to know Jesus and you're talking to him about it that's prayer I mean just you know be a piece of that yeah read into the deep my book uh check out my series it's called into the deep it's free you can find it out on spiritualdirection.com a five-part high quality film series that you can get and watch to understand all these questions and so you can grow in holiness and with that until next time may the god of peace make you perfect in holiness may he preserve you whole and entire spirit soul and body irreproachable at the coming of our lord jesus christ amen