 Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining Coast to Coast. My name is Lillian Corral, and I'm joined by Lily Weinberg. Hi, Lily. Hey, how's it going? Good. How are you? Doing well. What's happening in LA and your world? In my coast. Yes. Everything is good in LA. I think we are, we are now going into what looks like another sort of phase of this COVID pandemic. So we are both, I feel like starting to transition back to school as we talked about a little bit last week and then also just sort of trying to figure out a lot of like the work from home. I think there's a lot more chatter around the work from home timeline. I don't know if you see it, but Google announced that they're not going back to an office until summer of next year. I didn't say that announcement. Yeah. So a lot of companies now are like, it's interesting, those companies are sort of setting a trend. And so yeah, so now I feel like I hear a lot more chatter about companies and organizations, you know, just making really, really long term plans for working. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's certainly been interesting to watch and then the, you know, like we, we talked about last week with the schools. I mean, that is on everyone's mind. Will it be virtual, which, which in Miami, it's actually being delayed. It's going to be virtual longer. And I think that really highlights the importance of our conversation today around the digital divide and, and who has access, who doesn't have access and, and, and all of that, but it's, it's certainly a, it's certainly a dynamic time. That's for sure. Yeah, that's right. Lily work from home also has a lot of digital divide issues because I've heard a lot of companies have also kind of really struggled with like, do their employees really have the right setup. You know, a lot of us have like commercial internet at home, and that's not necessarily conducive to all these kinds of webinars and zoom calls and meetings. So that's right. Today's topic, which is the digital divide and. And we're going to hear today about three cities were blessed in the night at next foundation that we're part of these wonderful communities that are doing really interesting things. Today, we'll be learning from folks in San Jose in Detroit and Charlotte about the digital divide and the way that they've been approaching it because these three cities are actually doing it and very and slightly different ways and have different levels of needs and and so it'll be a really interesting conversation. I don't know if there are any things that, you know, strike you about the conversation. Yeah, a couple of things so so I am I'm really interested in that in that local piece what does this look like at a local level like how because you know I would think many cities would struggle with the same things that my understanding is that cities actually struggle with different things for the digital divide and so I Detroit really looks different than a Charlotte. And, and so that that's going to be interesting to kind of tease that out. I'm also really interested in the partnership piece and and what does that look like with our civic institutions like libraries, for example, which we partnered with a lot. Historically and so anyways I think I'll do a good conversation I'm excited to hear what you guys have to say. Yeah. So for everyone who's joined us please be mindful of putting your questions in the Q amp a box if you're joining us on Facebook. We're also be monitoring that for questions. But now let's get into it by having Bruce Clark, the executive director of digital Charlotte join us. Josh admins the director of digital inclusion for the city of Detroit. Join us and then Jordan son chief innovation officer for the city of San Jose. To coast to coast. Thanks so much. All three of you for for joining us. So let's get into, I think one of Lily's like first questions which is what does this look like in each of your community. In particular, you know, we, this, this issue has come up in a lot of our shows. I was mentioning to you all earlier it's come up in our open spaces shows it's come up in last week's conversation with Walter hood. It's come up in, you know, obviously in some of the conversations around digital engagement and civic engagement what that looks like. But when we say digital divide and digital inclusion, what does that actually mean and do you all define it in the same way. And how are your communities addressing it. So let's dig into Bruce, maybe you want to kick us off. Sure. Yeah, lonely and thanks for having me appreciate the opportunity to be here with Jordan and Joshua and Jordan congratulations on your promotion that came out yesterday so city of San Jose is lucky to have you. But you know I mean I think we in Charlotte look to for definitions we look to the National Digital Inclusion Alliance which lays out some of the definitions and sort of a paragraph. You know, four or five sentences but I think ultimately what when we kind of wade through that and talking to people were really talking about how are people creating new opportunities in their life in a world that's driven by technology. The three legged stool often gets referenced as a defining thing for internet access technology and digital literacy skills. And I would like to add on to that the ability for somebody to stand on that stool to reach up to the next level of opportunity they're trying to create in their life. And not that not that the three legs are the end goal but that they're a mechanism to help people achieve new and wonderful things in their life so that's, I mean, a little bit of the way we look at it and talk about it here in Charlotte. Jordan or Josh, do you guys define it the same way in your city. You know, one thing thank you Lillian Bruce Jordan and the Knight Foundation. So, yeah, following Bruce and this I mean he definitely laid it out exactly how most of us are doing it and I think that the only thing I would just add on to that is like when we're focused on digital inclusion we are definitely using that three legged stool methodology. The easiest way to get enough stakeholders on board to say huh, I get it. I get it enough. I think our focus has definitely shifted beyond that to saying like how do we operationalize everything how do we build a legitimate operation, where we don't have to always worry about how we addressing the digital divide how we address nothing you know, we're operationalizing it and we're making sure that as net new resources are coming into our city over attracting those that it's going into the model that actually ultimately boils down to those same three legs of that stool, but we're doing it in a way we're actually accountable and we can actually expand and scale the model again as resources come into our city. Yeah, and I absolutely agree to both what Bruce and Josh have mentioned you know I think part of that is reaching for those new opportunities standing on that stool right and so the digital divide is really just the first piece of our mission here. And then I would say for what Josh said in terms of making a scalable. I mean absolutely I think this is where it becomes unique. You know where where we have different populations with different different issues about digital divide. And so you know what my resonate with the black meeting might not necessarily resonate with the Latin X community in terms of the concerns of why I want to be connected why don't want to be connected same thing with elderly and homeless. And so there's some nuances there where that value prop needs to be addressed, and I think as the operational nitty gritty that that is very important in order for us to scale. And I would say you know Mayor San Ricardo has been very early and early champion of this I'm glad to see that so many cities are focused on the digital vibe so that's off to everybody. Great. So, you know, I keep hearing this phrase like coven 19 has laid bare the inequities around the digital divide. What does that really mean. And, and can you talk a little bit about your city's efforts around digital inclusion so let's start getting some concrete examples of how you're tackling the digital divide. But what, when we talk about coven laying this issue now to bear and being much more visible to everyone. What does that mean for how you've been approaching the issue and and how are you going to approach differently now that it's been so exposed. Okay, I'll start. I'll say that you know for for us, I've been, you know, this type of work has really been enhanced by COVID because of the sheer amount of attention. That's been something where before we began looking at that three legged school model, the the seat of that school that's where we focus on advocacy and awareness. And typically, folks who cared about digital inclusion were folks who cared about digital inclusion and that was kind of it. It didn't really extend beyond. And the relationships were truthfully in all of our communities, your libraries, you know, maybe a few churches, some nonprofits. But that was in some some some great community groups. That was pretty much it. Now with COVID. Oh my gosh, I mean, you know, it's a fire hose a partnership opportunity, which is great. And I think that for us, and you know, thankful to be on the call with with two other great cities where we focus on this before COVID. And so, you know, making that very known that we're not doing a responsive effort that we're saying, Hey, this is all response to COVID. It's like, No, this is an responsive being the right thing to do. But COVID has certainly made our efforts to say that we need to scale up as everything has pretty much shifted to being online that we're making sure it's also in the city of Detroit, you know, us laying out the infrastructure and getting everybody on board, educating stakeholders for quite some time now COVID hits. Well, you know, we were already in the position to act. And so one of the very first things that we were able to do was fundraise a very handsome $23 million to connect every single public school student with laptop one years worth of tech support and no internet access. And that's not to say that we've raised the digital divide. No, we've at least put in the infrastructure to habitually be able to address it. And whatever term knowledge or whatever term that comes up, whether it's, you know, focusing on school kids, we've now demonstrated that we can do that. So now if we need to focus on elderly or veterans or whoever, we've laid the infrastructure to act, which then goes back to the point of us operationalizing. Yeah, I mean, just in Charlotte a little bit different than Jordan and Joshua is my, my particular position is not housed at the city itself. And so we, and I think just as like a disclaimer, not that it needs to be said, but you know, we're still learning and growing in Charlotte and can do better in a lot of fronts. So what we're sharing today is lessons learned also, you know, with some, some success, right, but still a lot of lessons learned. And so, you know, we had been spending a lot of time on awareness, COVID obviously drove that awareness up. I think that there's reasons for a whole nother podcast on why that is and why certain segments of the population weren't paying attention to this issue. But, you know, the key and you mentioned in your intro Lilian was how this has been coming up in all these other spaces and all these other conversations is this issue is so intersectional with almost every other thing that we're trying to do as a city, as a country as a, as a, you know, humans right now and the way we look at the future and evolving and all these and whatnot. And so the pain that many people felt when they had to work from home and deal with some of the issues that other people dealt with every day just added to the side of the scale of people who were more aware of this. So, you know, in Charlotte, what that means for us, especially with the way with our Charlotte Digital Inclusion Alliance is structured is it's a host of different collaborators and organizations that come together. It's convening right now by the, by our library system, Seth Irvin, the Chief Innovation Officer for Charlotte-Mecklenburg Library, who's our convener. And really it's about trust building and sharing best practices to help move these things, help move solutions forward more quickly and find new ways to serve our community and what COVID has done has brought some new partners to the table. It's perhaps loosened up some of the bureaucracy that might have slowed us down in the past. But I still think we're on the front. I still think we're on the cusp of what we can continue to do there and see so we're out here. So, Jordan, I'd love to hear about what's happened in San Jose as a result of COVID, but I do want to go back to this point you made Bruce, we cannot spend too much time on it, but I do want to go back to why different constituencies did not care about this issue before COVID and now we do care about it. So, let's definitely talk about that. Jordan, what's been going on in San Jose? Yeah, I would say, you know, the first thing is, we already had, you know, when COVID hit the headlines, we already had the Digital Inclusion Fund set in place. So we actually just launched there, you know, shortly there before that. And so we had a $24 million fund with a minimum $1 million worth of grants coming in through private teleco partnerships, public private partnerships to be able to address like a stool problem. The other part is, you know, after COVID, you know, we recently allocated $8.2 million through the great work that the library has done for both community Wi-Fi, but also mobile Wi-Fi hotspots in anticipation of children who need access to Internet. And so we're coupling that with, you know, other partnerships to make sure that the rest of the like legs of that stool are being addressed in terms of device and literacy need. And then I would say the final piece of this is, is, you know, we've also really gone, you know, COVID has stressed, had a lot of operation in terms of how do you reach those who are unconnected if everybody is in a virtual world, right? And so putting out messages and everything like this is a very different population because you're always alienating that segment, that 10%. And so you have to work with influencers in the community, but also rely on traditional channels. And we're very fortunate that, you know, folks like Univision have been offering like, hey, look, put out PSAs for us to bridge that digital vibe. And so, you know, that's been really important and just kind of going back thinking more outside the box of ways to reach communities that are otherwise under or unconnected. Great. So, so why hasn't this issue been elevated prior to COVID? Why didn't it take a global pandemic for us to really acknowledge the importance of it? You're all, and then Josh. I'm trying so hard, not to laugh too much at this, but I mean, Bruce is probably going to give a really, really honest answer. I'm going to give an honest answer too. So when we're looking at this issue, and you know, for, you know, earlier this year, I had a really, really just gratuitous opportunity to testify in front of Congress on digital equity. And that was a point to talk to Congress and say, like, hey, like, this is a priority. And I mean, it's aged really well because we did it before a pandemic. Well, I think people know, like, come on, man. I mean, heck, if someone would have brought that example up, I mean, jeez. But like, you know, one of the things that is currently happening, you have all these broadband acts, broadband bills, the House and the Senate, and, you know, we're not really getting digital inclusion funding. We are getting funding for Internet access, i.e. infrastructure and mainly rural America and unconnected areas, but not really getting under connected, which really goes at what digital inclusion is. Digital inclusion is the nuance. That is us saying, why aren't people adopting technology? What can we do? What barriers can we reduce? That level of nuance, it's difficult to conceptualize and to one, even fund that. I think that because we haven't really seen any type of funding come from the federal government to support digital inclusion in a big way, as a result, you don't have municipal governments that are empowered to do anything. And so, like, it's a really tough conversation because, like, I'll be honest, like, cities like Detroit and others across America, like we have a legitimate point person for digital inclusion that are actually empowered to do work. That was a gamble. That was us doing that without federal funding saying, we're going to figure this out because we trust in our local ecosystem enough to do it, but not every community is fortunate enough to be able to do that. We are very thankful for the Knight Foundation to be able to step in and say, hey, let's work with the city to accomplish this. We know it's an issue, but not every community has at their disposal. So as a result, you have a lot of people who are just waiting for the federal government to then be able to supply that type of funding, then be able to do this work more within the city context. Without having a point person within the city, I think a lot of folks are just doing a lot of great work, but they're ultimately mitigating that degree of impact that you get with having a city government really trying to spearhead this work on the ground. Yeah, and a big shout out to our former colleague, Katie Locker, who secured that funding. So Bruce, what's what's your answer for for why we haven't been caring about this? I mean, you know, I, it's an equity issue. And when you look at the data about who is generally who's mostly impacted by the digital divide, you know, communities of color, but elderly people who may have less ability to advocate or have this been provided the opportunity to advocate on their behalf and so which ties into systemic issues. And so I think that there's a whole system designed to keep the status quo, right? I mean, there's without pressure from cities and organizations and nonprofit and philanthropy and corporate social responsibility and all the others to, you know, change internet pricing or to, you know, get internet service companies to do that or to get companies to rethink their asset disposition so that we can gain access to all these devices or lifelong learning, right? We know that in something like 90 plus percent of professional development dollars and the are spent before the age of 25. So what happens when you're out of school age and the rest of your life, where are you going to get this lifelong learning? So, to me, it's an equity issue and we see right now with other issues our countries facing that we have a lot of work to do to address equity-based issues. And so that's my kind of roundabout answer. Thank you. Jordan, your situation is a little interesting in San Jose in that the genesis of the Digital Inclusion Fund is a partnership with some of the companies, the telecommunications companies. Can you talk a little bit about how that developed and maybe is that a model for other cities to think about? Yeah, it's, you know, it's in partnership with some of the major telcos here in the area. And, you know, overall, I think it was a very, you know, a wonderful sort of quite frankly innovative approach to public-private partnership where, you know, in order for 5G deployment to occur, you know, Mayor Liccardo as well as our city manager's office and my processor were able to negotiate an opportunity where, you know, we were able to have a certain rate and therefore be able to fund our Digital Inclusion efforts. Because the part of it is, you know, we don't want to hamper technology rollout and development and, you know, and fostering that innovation piece. But the other part of it is we can't forget that, you know, we also have to be inclusive and equitable. And so that's kind of where the genesis of it came out. I would say, you know, looking a little bit further down the line, you know, I think there is an opportunity for us to really look at, to rethink, you know, public-private partnerships where I think there's sometimes a very antagonistic relationship still between companies and when you talk about inclusion and equity, and I know companies are trying to do more. But I think, you know, there's really a lot more room for us to be able to work together where it's not only, you know, beneficial for economic development and, you know, commerce, but at the same time, you know, we can really push the ball forward for some of the equity inclusion pieces so that we can take care of, even if it's just 10% of our population. And that's still very significant. You know, we can't forget about that. So, yeah, I mean, that's really, you know, the key, and I just want to say, you know, to the earlier conversations, I hope that this is not just the flavor of the month for digital inclusion and that, you know, when we end crisis response that we don't take the eye off the ball and people just say, okay, you know, mission accomplished, we're done, you know, that we still focus on other aspects of digital inclusion because I don't think the fight's going to be over yet. Yeah, so thinking a little bit about the future then. I mean, one question I haven't, and I've done some of the, I've done work around the digital divide for a while now, especially in California and or at least I did it a while ago. And one of the things that strikes me is that so the three legged stool, which is access to the internet, access to a device in the home and access to the internet in the home access to a device in the home, and then digital literacy training right like how do you actually use that device and use the internet. That's been the model for a while now right for almost like 10 plus years in terms of how we go about trying to tackle this issue. And one of the things that we know that I sort of think about now is like there's a continuum of connectivity like it is the internet is so pervasive smartphones are so pervasive that, you know, I know that, you know, even sometimes I live in Los Angeles like our homeless neighbors, they have smartphones and you see them wiring up or trying to trying to like get energy to their devices and using their devices. So it seems to me like there's a continuum of connectivity. And I guess the question I have for you all is, are we trying to solve this. Is this like a hammer versus a scaffold kind of problem like are we still trying to solve this in a in a one size fits all approach or do you think there are ways that we might be able to work on connectivity based on how connected or not the individual is and try and get at more sort of distinct strategies or approaches. Yeah, I would say, I think a lot of it depends on kind of what the use cases are for the users right and so when you're looking at streaming media, or if you're just doing, you know, video chat or basic, you know, text and then there are different sort of bandwidth needs but I would say the minimum that we're always aiming for here is broadband internet speeds at 25 megs per second. And so, you know, I think that would be I think the standard and what the applications you want users to have, you know, in the type of experience they want you want. I would say the other part of it is, you know, so this is something that we haven't really gotten to but we're starting to think about it where the type of devices that come in, and where do they go right so does, you know, students for sure they need a laptop right and I'm sure Bruce and Josh can agree, based off of their needs but maybe someone else might just it might be better for a mobile phone, or, or, or a tablet so it really depends on I think the user and we have to be cognizant we have to frankly have the data to be able to back that up and then work backwards from there. Yeah, go ahead, Josh, I'm sorry. Nope, nope, fine, because I might end up going a little bit left so you go ahead. I mean, I, I don't have. Well, my thoughts are ubiquity is, you know, the key here I don't I don't I think it's to we we get too much into parsing out different communities for different needs when we need like, I mean, I think Jordan kind of hit at it with that baseline broadband. But where that occurs needs to be the home, it needs to be the bus, it needs to be the park, it needs to be the sidewalk because I mean Jordan knows it better than probably any of us because of where you're located in your experience in the past but also looking 10 years out and 20 years out. I mean, the digital divide is going to be maybe slightly different, maybe access isn't as big of a key, a big of an issue in 10 years but digital literacy skills are because we're talking about augmented reality and artificial intelligence and you know, when I'm 80 sitting there wondering is this a real person is this a bot like who am I talking to what is my comfort level. And so for me it's like designing. I hate to use the word systems because at the same time I'm also seeing issues with the systems but it's designing sort of a procedure in a process that's continuing to evolve based on where we're at technologically and all on also reminded that it isn't about the technology it's about the opportunity that people are trying to create in their life I don't want a laptop just because I want a laptop. I want a laptop because I got to do my report or I got to write my resume and submit it you know and that's the reason that that's the driver to me. And I'm the only thing I'll add to that, like there's a really wise man that's trying to develop an anti fragile ecosystem. That's Jordan. And like that that's something that actually resonates with the word that I think that all of us are seeking to do. And really when we began focusing at the level of the community that we serve. One of the things that we're prioritizing is creating a legitimate like data ecosystem where we're like look the American community survey for most communities is what we use to define the issue. There are several problems with that. One of the main ones is one there's a two year lapse on the data. And then to it's collected at the census tract level. And I think that these problems don't just exist at the census tract level these problems are deeply entrenched within our communities. And so the more data that we collect there then that should be framing our interventions and whatever we're doing. And so one of the things I always I've been bringing up a lot more recently. And you know there's probably about three years ago when the Amazon fire stick was just like the thing and you went to barber shops you went to all these places that you would swear. Oh you know these households don't have internet they don't have it's like OK people were were literally saying hey I'm jail breaking a fire stick like wait whoa. That's a really really technical term like that's tech jargon that people are using and so comfortable with like no no no you got to jail break it. And it's like OK there are legitimate entry points into these communities that we have sometimes historically have had a lot of difficulty connecting with on this topic and it's like OK at what point do we look at where we already are. And then like a ways where it's like OK we might we could end up here but in order to get here we're meeting people where they already are. And so like I definitely agree with Jordan's approach of saying like having the end user in mind and then the uses there too. But also definitely agree with Bruce to where it's like OK but at the same time like as we're looking at building this type of approach we're looking future focused enough to say that hey if this is going to be another reality that we're envisioning. With respect to AI AR whatever it's like we are putting in place the ecosystem that then could afford those type of that type of focus to be realized otherwise we're just going to create digital divide 2.0 and it's like OK we've moved on from access. Now we're looking at who doesn't have access to this new tech thing and so it's like no you just build the ecosystem right has been driving principles and make sure it's adaptable to the new ever changing landscape. Great. Yeah. No I think that digital divide 2.0 or perhaps 3.0 is a is a scary is a scary vision especially when we think about we're trying like in some ways a lot of our economy and a lot of our social and civic activities are really like forward. You know there the forward momentum is to be online and so imagine really creating this dual class of citizens that are connected and not and or really having that even more entrenched than we already have. OK last question then I'm going to switch to Lily who has questions in the Q&A but you know Jordan you alluded to this hopefully not being sort of the issue du jour like and that we keep this momentum going. What what are some real outcomes like to get very very candid that we can expect to see maybe over this next year year and a half. What are what are things. What are specific things that community should really focus in the audience should really be striving for to make sure happen in their community. And then there's a reference to like there was a question about what's this American Community Survey that you mentioned Josh and just for folks in the audience. It's basically the the five year survey which goes out every year so that's put out by the census in between the in the census years and it'll let you know what the level of connectivity or not is in your community. Although there's some flaws with the way in which it's it's done some would argue and so may not capture the full extent of the digital divide but but real outcomes like what can we what we should be what should we be striving to really get done over the next year year and a half. Okay I don't know why I thought that was addressed to Jordan. I must be here. I'll say that you know for us specifically. I think we've done a good job and I think that this webinar is going a good job as well of defining the issue and many of us in our community who are a student aware like we've done that for so long but now it's like okay Legitimately bridging it and like making an actionable governance structure and so in Detroit what we're doing we're actually unveiling this on Thursday is kind of like our larger community structure I mean we were working in a collaborative like our our initiatives called Connect 313 313 being the area code for Detroit and you know we were convening partners but now it's like okay no let's actually get like board governance like legitimate committees subcommittees like voting power and getting all of those things under one umbrella and then from now until December or I should say January you know we're we're going through the motions it's a bit of preseason right now we're saying okay yes we could be responding to a crisis which we are we are already doing things but we're also saying let's take this long term approach and say we don't need to have to you know fundraise for every single crisis. We built the infrastructure the right way so this entire time that's what we're doing however moving into next year that's where dollars get allocated resources to get allocated we're being very exploratory we're setting up things on like we have different subcommittee our committee is like one devices and connectivity one digital literacy it's pretty recent three like it's cool but for devices and connectivity we're saying the standard now probably shouldn't even be broadband if it's going to be 25 three and three upload well then I mean that's really technical but we're just saying we are setting our own standards and so therefore as we set our own standards with the resources that are available IE funding and just personnel well then that's then going to shift our focus into saying what we can legitimately do you know moving forward and so we're really focused right now on structuring operationalizing and exploring what resources we have how can we enhance those and how can we justify and investing new where we don't have anything. Yeah and going on to his point you know I think you know Josh when you mentioned you know I think a lot of cities are going to be facing sort of budget you know cuts or difficulties ahead right in terms of our bill our fiscal management and so I think prioritizing you know if you have a smart city plan prioritizing your digital inclusion projects and particularly you know thinking about the needs right now it's students for sure right because we have schools starting for us on August 12 and then the other part so you know our library is doing fantastic work partner with the Department of Transportation Parks and Rec to to be able to get community Wi-Fi up and going the second part is our you know our library also we have 11,000 hotspots with a telco partner to be able to deliver those hotspots in the hands of identify students in partnership with our counties and really be able to make sure that the students are connected ahead of school and the third part is you know not forgetting the rest of the community you know those who are homeless are elderly and saying okay what's next that we need to accomplish but I think just this year alone operationalizing as Josh mentioned that's the key thing right and then we just have to keep hustling until we're across that finish line I think looking a little bit further down the road is I worry you know with this rush what happens next you know right who are people going to stay connected with these plans you know you get them for one year what happens on year two same thing with community Wi-Fi these things are good for three to four maybe five years you know out in the open what happens next who's going to do operation maintenance and upgrades and so these are all considerations that we have to plan also ahead of time just you know that base layer of infrastructure very similar one thing I would add is taking this opportunity to work especially within our city and county governments I think we have an opportunity here in Charlotte to get both city county government and our philanthropic community one step more involved you know taking one step at a time and so to Jordan's point about you know who's here at the table today and are they going to be there any year from now you know one thing that we have been contemplating and we being the Charlotte Digital Alliance is having conversations about how many people who come to the our meetings have a responsibility that's tied to their performance and their job description or how many people are showing up in that room because they personally care and they're allowed to give that time and there's a huge difference between those two both are both are needed both are required both are very valued but the difference in somebody who's a Jordan or a Joshua who works for directly for the city who has some responsibility for overseeing a plan or part of a budget or can influence those things is different than someone who who may not who may be showing up because it's related to their job but it's not expressly written and so for I think that's one of the opportunities we have because of COVID and because there's increased attention is how do we help those organizations think through the role of their human capital involved in solution development. Great. Lily questions from the audience. Thank you all. Yeah, this is a great conversation. So I'm going to bubble up a couple of the themes that I'm hearing from the audience. And so and we'll do rapid fire answers so we can get through a handful of them. So the first one I thought was really good context setting. It was a question around this has been the digital divide has been an issue since the 90s. I know like my foundation funded in the 90s and and so and I Jordan I see you nodding your head so maybe I'll throw it to you first. Can you tell us a little bit about how this issue has progressed over the past and evolved over the past 20 years. Yeah, I would say one thing is emphasizing I think the literacy part of the part is the standard right now I think the standard the goal post continuously moves like I said you know as as applications as come online you know in terms of you know how people are engaging let's say media right and sort of bandwidth needs so I would say that's the only difference but I would say yeah I mean even smart have been a topic since the explosion of information communication technology back in the 90s as well. Yeah, yeah and so I want to I want to build upon that point around the digital literacy piece and the media, in particular the media literacy. There was a question around how do people adopt technology so that they can be served properly as quote humans. And there is there is particularly a question. And I think they're referring to digital literacy but then they said, you know, media literacy is really an issue and especially around misinformation and disinformation. And so, so, so, could, could one of you speak to that and how we should be thinking about addressing that piece. Bruce do you want to jump in. Processing here so kind of off the top of my head I mean one thing that we really try to do is my my digital Charlotte is housed at a university Queens University of Charlotte located really close to the uptown corridor, have some incredible faculty to help us design and develop the program so my role is mainly out in the community, collaborating with students and faculty and then and then serving our broader regional community and so one thing that we have some expertise in media literacy and health literacy and digital and health literacy and so when we design our workshops, we don't design them with the intent of teaching somebody a technical skill. We know that there might be technical skill development happening but it's usually about some broader goal like staying engaged in your child's education or understanding and building community around your health, your health. And media literacy is a component that generally weaves through all of those so for us it's, it's ingrained in all of the workshops we do, whether you know there's some level of media literacy of understanding, recognizing sources and being able to think critically about what you're consuming and so again I think it's very intersectional with all of the things that we do that's the way we think about it we're not perfect at it we can do more but that's just where we're at right now. Got it. Josh, did you want to jump in on this? I saw you nodding your head so I didn't know. I just when Bruce talks I just agree. Yes. The one thing that you know we're doing and there's multiple things but I guess that I'll highlight here. I had mentioned earlier that we're focused on data services as one is like a shared service a larger community we've created a digital equity fund again for the larger community. We're looking at neighborhood technology hubs for the larger community. But there's this community storytelling piece that we're really focused on as well. And I think that's where we start to tie into that media literacy thing where it's like hey community owned storytelling that actually informs and influences our advocacy on this topic. Because that's again the missing link oftentimes where people are doing this work. It's just the stories aren't really getting told. And so our focus is saying well if we shift the power, ultimately that when I'm talking about governance as a power structure. And as we are seeking to empower other people through this shared service approach, well then it's an incentive to indulge or learn a little bit more on this digital inclusion journey than it is to Bruce's point again of identifying just a technical skill. And so for us and saying like hey like this is articles that are written by Detroit or for Detroit bias like that type of model and then trying to scale it there opposed to you know doing it in a very robust. I'm not saying academic but you get the point. Yeah. And so and as you're talking about like shifting power. Is that because there are a few questions around the like the three prongs and the fourth prong is that is that getting to that fourth prong piece like the economic opportunity piece. I think that there are multiple schools. Within like a library in my opinion is the perfect three-legged school on one a branch is a three-legged school. And so there are microcosmic schools there and I think what we're saying is like hey let's build like, oh it's going to be cliche but I don't care go with me. Let's just build a table with all these schools, you know, at the table and so like that's kind of like how we're framing it, and that power is now saying like hey, we have a community coalition that is that equal power to our board that we're building that's going to be a lot of this work. And so by having that power structure broken down by saying all of our recommendations are coming from the community and before we're investing like dimes or literally getting the community sentiment. And so then it's kind of like, you know, giving people an opportunity to scaffold to understanding this in a way that maybe wasn't offered to them previously. Got it. Okay, that's really helpful. I'm just going to get to a couple more questions that that we had in the queue so one was around philanthropy and and so I think each of you talked about philanthropy Josh you use you talked about 23 million serious dollars recently going towards digital divide and Detroit Bruce you mentioned philanthropy and I believe Jordan you did too. We do have in our audience we have a lot of local funders who who attend these sessions and so so I guess you know my question to you would be three of you is how do you think philanthropy can really play kind of a catalytic role without a better word and this you know I mean there could be a tremendous amount of dollars. That municipalities and the federal government can give but what what what is the particular role philanthropy could play. So I, our Charlotte has neither a 21 or a $24 million fund so I don't know if I should answer this question I feel on my screen you guys are like right on either side of me so I'm like, you know, feeling it but you know two things one for me is not that we also have convening power being associated with the university but sometimes the that that convening power through philanthropy can bring new perspectives to the table or perhaps bring the right people to the table and the decision makers to give you the time to hear beyond the three-legged stool right and if you had three-legged stool on your bingo card today you win but but that and and you know it's it's really nuanced because it is intersectional with every other issue so if you're funding affordable housing like we see in Charlotte or if you're funding workforce development are do you do you are there partners like us at the table who are helping inform the way that the digital divide impacts affordable housing or impacts workforce development in a way that the funding can be aligned or or perhaps even carved out like the like Detroit and San Jose have done to specifically address those issues. So, you know, those are my two areas where I think that they can play a role and that also requires partners like us providing that information and being their shoulder to shoulder with these philanthropic organizations and I'd also include corporate social responsibility as well because they play a role in this too. So, I think that one, like prior to me coming to Detroit, I actually worked at the Cleveland Foundation, local community foundation in Cleveland, Ohio, and you know that allowed me it informed me the way that philanthropy should be involved in this. And I do think at times, you know cities where you have a really big dog like a clean foundation there there's some things are like okay that might not be applicable for everyone. But as I'm in Detroit, and I'm working from you know the municipal government lines and I'm looking at my community foundations. I'm not necessarily looking for them to fund this model and perpetuity that's not how they they're they operate. But what I do need them to do. I need them because they will one their approximate to a lot of leadership, and they then can validate the cause beyond what I can do. So I can validate a cause like generally speaking because I'm knowing this for the city of Detroit, but they then within their respective areas are allowed to push that message in a way that I can't do it. And so like it's not necessarily always a capital ask for digital inclusion. I think that's where we unify and we create a fundable model that is worth getting national investment or that's worth getting investment from their. From the federal government and some of these other larger private companies I then can support this but in order to get that we need to be aligned at that local level and I think to Bruce's point, the role that a philanthropic organization can fill definitely the role of a convener. They can help us push policy as it relates to this issue, and they can again just be that neutral partner that's proximate to enough leadership that allows this cause to live on and rooms that quite frankly somewhere digital inclusion activists just aren't in. That's a, that's a very powerful. Thank you Jordan, did you want to hop in. Yeah, and I just want to say one last thing is that I think the philanthropy piece play as a really important role, particularly for us, as we think about, you know, city budget cycles, and quite frankly how often our, our hands are tied in terms of our execute right and so they are essentially like a rapid procurement channel almost and in the process immediately address the community need and and very quickly so as long as we are able to as you know Josh and Bruce mentioned elevate their voice to be like here here's your impact on the community and map that very clearly. And as and it lines with our donors goals I think that would be the key thing, but you know it's it's unfortunate it's also unfortunate that cities we can't move quickly enough. Right. And the only other thing I'll just add that forget I keep forgetting this but it's like, you know, with this as local leaders we have a responsibility of protecting philanthropic investments as well, and not making it seem as though if you're a philanthropic organization you're investing here that you're just doing it and then we're not there to one validate or say hey let's do you in the right direction hey dollars really need to go here given that I think we have a responsibility to to engage and be very candid and transparent and supporting our philanthropic organizations usually it's a one way street, but in this one know let's set up two way to say how can we support you as you are supporting the work that we're doing. The two a straight absolutely so I'm going to last question I think it's I think it's a good kind of broad broad question to ask so so what crossover connections of any exists between the digital divide and geography race and the local tax base. Yeah. Josh you know you go ahead first. I was going to ask to repeat the question. Okay, so what crossover connections of any exists between the digital divide and geography race and the local tax base. So, yeah, you can go massive, massive, massive, I mean, I'll say one geography, the Midwest, for example, I'm from Cleveland we're doing this work in Cleveland I'm in Detroit now. We're at Rust Belt cities that are seeking to find their footing and a changing landscape where historically they had a certain economic structure that doesn't really work right now. And so as we look at digital literacy digital skills and digital inclusion broadly speaking, it's germane to our cities to figure this out is literally in the fabric of our Renaissance and our revitalization. So it's like one is that is I mean obviously other cities could kind of come up with a way but it hits it hits differently here in the Midwest. And I'll also say on the race piece. When we look at the American Community Survey, we're looking across the spectrum. People of color are going to be least likely oftentimes not to have high speed internet and computers. Those are things where it's like okay well why is that well that's for a variety of factors which goes into the adoption piece. And so when we look at this methodology from a general sense we all subscribe to the same one, but we know where the differences are and how we need to just kind of, you know, reconfigure this in a way of saying that hey, and a lot of these large black cities, we're seeing them have churches and a lot of these neighborhoods. And so my digital inclusion advocacy is going to be much more faith driven in some communities. Yet we're still subscribing to the same those three like it's tools and so I would say that all those factors that are listed, definitely inform the way that we do this work and we on the ground have to be mindful of that. Yeah, so it's everything essentially those factors, everything. So we can in there at Lillian come on in. We are over time. Yeah, we are. It's a great conversation great set of questions Lily. Thank you Bruce, Josh and Jordan for joining us. This has been a really helpful, I think starting place for context and the conversation, an issue that's come up a lot. So, so thank you, folks, and we'll be sharing this recording for others and you can follow these gentlemen online. They're all active on Twitter. And so if you have more questions feel free to check them out. But Lily, so next week we're going to deal with another amazing topic in these times of pandemic. What are we talking about? We're going to talk about downtown revitalization. And so night is, of course, downtown have been hit hard with with COVID and and many cities are dealing with the same with, you know, similar issues. So we'll discuss that also night is releasing a toolkit on how to you know what to measure and and what to be looking at what what key indicators so it should be a good conversation. I really really enjoyed this one too. So thank you. Bye everyone. Thank you everyone for staying on. Take care. Bye.