 Hi, I'm Rusty Komori and this is Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii. I was the head coach of the Punahou Boys varsity tennis team for 22 years, and we were fortunate to win 22 consecutive state championships. This show is based on my books Beyond the Lines and Beyond the Game, which is about leadership, character, and creating a superior culture of excellence. My special guest today is a former hostage negotiator with the Honolulu Police Department, and he is one of 89 accredited speakers in the world with Toastmasters International. He is Robert Cravalho, and today we are going Beyond Conflict Resolution. Hey, Bobby, welcome to the show. Hello, Rusty. Thank you for this opportunity. It's great to be here. Bobby, you and I know each other for many years, and I feel so honored to know you because you've done so many things in your career already, and you continue to do so much more, but I wanna first start if you can share a bit about your background growing up in Hawaii. I'd love to, Rusty, a local boy from Kailua, went to Catholic schools, graduated from St. Louis High School, and then went on to join the police department in 1981. So I served 30 years with the Honolulu Police Department. It was a great career. Yeah, and I know that you retired as a lieutenant, and Bobby, you and I, we talk a bunch, and your family, you have two older brothers, and I know that your mom and dad are your mentors. What's the most important thing you learned from your mom and dad? I learned so much from my mom and my dad. Missed them so much, my mom passed away in 2019, or excuse me, in 2020, and dad passed away in 2019. I think I learned from my mom. My mom was kind, she was a kind woman, and she was very strong. So I think from my mom, I learned kindness, and I learned strength. My mother never had a crossword for anyone. She was always very loving, but she was strong if there was any family issues or work issues that she was dealing with. She dealt with them, she was very strong. I think my dad taught me to be a hard worker. He would say, do what you're supposed to do, when you're supposed to do it, the way it's supposed to be done. And I think I've heard that from other people, and I don't know if my dad borrowed it from them, or if they borrowed it from my dad, but he was a hard worker. He worked five days a week in a Hawaiian Electric, and at night, he would tend bar. I don't know how many of your viewers rust to remember before it was Macy's at Alamon shopping center, it was called Liberty House, and on the top floor, they had the Garden Court Restaurant and Lounge, and my dad would go and bartend there. And then on Saturdays, my dad had his own business, CNS Electrical Maintenance, and he had contracts with some of the restaurants in Waikiki, and on Saturdays, he'd go and change lights, or fix a receptacle, or change a switch, or what have you. And then Sundays was Family Day Church, and maybe breakfast, beach, and that was our family day. So I think from my mom, I learned to be kind, but you have to be strong. And then for my dad, I think he taught me to be a hard worker. No, I like hearing that, Bobby, and I know that you graduated from the FBI National Academy, and you met Robert Mueller, who was the head of the FBI at the time when he gave you the certification, and what are some of the key things you learned while you were at the Academy? Oh, I learned so much. He said three months program, only 1% of law enforcement executives are invited to attend in Quantico, Virginia, where you actually live on campus and attend classes and PT and such. I learned so much, stress management, managing organizational change, leadership. I think one of the key takeaways from that experience was to make everyone in your life feel valued and appreciated, making everyone feel valued and appreciated. If you can do that, Rusty, you can rule your world. Everyone wants to feel valued and appreciated for whatever it is that they do. So I think that was one of the key takeaways. Again, if you can make everyone in your life feel valued and appreciated. Even if it's the checkout girl at the grocery store, checkout guide, the grocery store, whatever it is, thank them for helping you because let's face it, you can't get out of the store with your groceries if you don't pay for it first, right? So they're helping you as you go along the way. So just show them that you value them and you appreciate them and it goes a long way. Yeah, I totally agree with that. And Bobby, why did you become a police officer? Well, Rusty, it was better than pumping gas at Sam's Kailua Chevron to be honest with you. My friend, it was just like the movie. He came in one day to the gas station and said, hey, Bobby, let's go beat cops. And I thought, Rusty, I was 19, 20 years old. I was 150 pounds soaking wet. I said, I can't be a law enforcement officer. He actually filled out the application for me and made me sign my name and he submitted it. So I really didn't aspire to be a law enforcement officer, but I'm glad that that was the career choice for me. It was a great career. I enjoyed every minute of it. And I'm proud to say that I was a Honolulu police officer. So when you first became a police officer, what were some of your responsibilities that you dealt with? Well, initially, I was assigned to the receiving desk where you booked prisoners, right? So the officers make their rest on the field and they come to receiving desk where you do the booking, mugshot, take their fingerprints. I learned a lot in that assignment. It wasn't a sought after assignment because everybody wanted to be on the road. They wanted to be where the rubber meets the road, yeah? And so when you get assigned to the receiving desk, it's probably not the best assignment, but I learned a great deal. I learned how to handle people. You see, when you're on the road and you say, well, if you continue that behavior, you can be placed under arrest, right? That's kind of your go-to. But when you're already under arrest and you're at the receiving desk, we have no, anything over them if you will, right? So you just, you have to be patient. You have to be kind with them. Why? Because you want information, where do they live, where do they work? And so you have to like work with them to get them through this process so they can get bailed out. So I learned how to be a little bit softer, I think, by being in that assignment. So it was a great assignment. And then I worked in patrol, answering calls for service, enforcing traffic laws and things of that nature. And then I was promoted to sergeant and I was a detective in the criminal investigation division. I did that for about eight years. And then made lieutenant. I was assigned to the communications division and also the professional standards office, which back then was called internal affairs. I was in charge of the team that investigates allegations, criminal allegations against law enforcement, or excuse me, against employees, both civilian and sworn in the Holocaust Department. I did that for about five years. Very challenging job, very challenging. Oh, for sure. And Bobby, so when you worked as a hostage negotiator for HPD, what were some of the biggest challenges you dealt with during that time? Well, I think just being a negotiator is a big challenge because every call out you go to, you don't know what you're getting yourself into. Of course safety is the biggest concern. So our safety was never in jeopardy, but just dealing with the unknown, if you will. It's very interesting, Rusty, as a hostage negotiator, when I was first asked to join the team, I thought to myself, yeah, I'd love to be a hostage negotiator. And then I kind of had second thoughts because I wondered if I really had what it takes to be a hostage negotiator. I mean, what do you say to somebody who was holding a gun to their head or worse, holding a gun to someone else's head? And I remember asking my lieutenant, Karen Canillo, at the time, and I said, I don't know if I can do this. And she said, well, Bobby, it's not about talking, it's about listening. And that just like blew my mind because we think that it's crafting the speech or crafting what you're gonna say to this individual, but it's not, it's really just listening to them, being empathetic, understanding the situation that they're in, bringing that emotion down so that logic can take over and they can make reasonable decisions. So that's really what it was all about. I think one of the most challenging events was I was on a call with an individual who was suicidal and they're armed with a firearm and threatening to take their life. And it didn't go as the way I planned. And I heard the gunshot, I knew what had happened. And initially when you go through your training, they teach you that you're responsible for what's going on outside and they're responsible for what's going on inside. And they made the choice not you, so you should be able to deal with it. But after a couple of days, Rusty, you started second guessing yourself. Could I have said something different or I could have handled a difference that person would still be here? And I really think it was my faith that kind of helped me through all of that. When I started to realize it, it was their decision to pull that trigger. It wasn't mine, I didn't make them do that. So I think that was probably one of the most challenging aspects that I encountered when I was on the call. Bobby, there's only, you can control certain things, but there's other things that's beyond your control, right? Exactly. And so you have to realize just to let it go, right? There's that saying, right? If you can change it, change it so you don't have to worry about it. If you can't change it, then don't worry about it because you can't change it. So that kind of works as well too. I think another challenge of being a negotiator too is liking people that you don't like. Part of the job of a negotiator is to build rapport. And let's face it, sometimes you're dealing with people that you don't like. I was part of the team that responded to a mass murder here in Hawaii. Maybe most of you viewers recall this. It was over 20 years ago, seven individuals were murdered at work. And we were talking with the alleged suspect in this case and you have to build a rapport with this individual yet you understand that he just murdered seven people so how do you do that? And so that was very difficult as well, trying to build rapport with people that you don't necessarily like. Oh, that's so tough. I mean, in every situation that you dealt with, I mean, there's so many variables that could happen. And Bobby, what's a story, what's an impactful story while you're working as a hostage negotiator that comes to mind that you can share with us? Well, I think I share with probably the most, the two most impactful stories. I don't think any of the others I would share have anything that would reach that level. I think understanding how to resolve the conflict, I think it's very important. It starts off by, as I mentioned, building rapport. You have to build rapport with this individual and then you have to do your active listening. Just listen to them. Let them pour it out, right? Don't judge them. Just listen. Be empathetic. Just be understanding. Now, you don't understand or you're not gonna agree with what they did, but you understand why they did it, yes? So you just understand and bring that emotion down so that logic can take over. And once logic takes over, then maybe you can initiate some sort of compromise and bring it to a resolution. Yeah, cause you're actually trying to find a win-win situation and compromise and communication is really key, right? Communication is key. And as I mentioned earlier, it's all about listening. It's not so much about talking. And when you're dealing with somebody and their emotion is up here, there's no, you can't deal with them. You have to bring that emotion down. And you know, you're free yourself, Rusty. If you're upset about something, if you talk it out and you get it off your chest, don't you feel better? And that's all that it is. It's just giving someone that opportunity to vent, to get it off their chest so that, again, their emotions will come down and their logic will go up. Now, Bobby, needless to say, I mean, you're a conflict management expert and there's so many different dynamics of conflict. And what are your thoughts about those various dynamics? The different dynamics of conflict? Well, the conflict could be at anything, but I think the formula that I just explained to you and viewers kind of applies to just about, I mean, you can use that on your seven-year-old. It all works. I mean, you just build a rapport and do the active listening, bring down the emotion so that logic can take over. So I don't know specifically what you mean when you say dynamics. Certainly a lot of variables, yes. Yeah, I mean, there's simple, I mean, we have conflicts in every day, everyday life, right? Like, I'm sure your girlfriend, Michonne, she might wanna go eat at a certain restaurant but you wanna go somewhere else and how do you resolve that conflict? Well, of course, you already have a rapport because that's my girlfriend. So you already have a rapport, you can skip that. You can listen to her, she's really on note for some Italian food or what have you. And then you have to compromise. So maybe you go to the food court where I can get Chinese and she can get Italian or something like that. So yeah, as you mentioned earlier, compromise is really the key in conflict. So Bobby, I gotta thank you. I mean, you're a big supporter of my books and I feel so grateful that you like the books. What are some things that really stood out to you in it? Well, I'll tell you what I didn't like. There weren't any pictures for me to color. But I did enjoy reading your book and I am not an avid reader, but of course I picked up your book and read it and I enjoyed many facets of it but I think the one key takeaway that I had, there were many, but the one that comes to mind is the size of the trophy for the sportsman of the year trophy and the MVP trophy that the sportsman trophy was larger than the MVP trophy. And I thought, my gosh, Coach Rusty, what a lesson. What a lesson to teach the kids because that's what's important. It's not winning the game. I mean, sure that's great and we all wanna do that but it's the life lessons and that's what you taught. And that was a big takeaway for me, the size of the trophy. That was great, Rusty, good job. Yeah, no, I like that you like that because it's all about character and sportsmanship and that's what we're trying to promote with tennis and sports. And Bobby, I feel, I'm so impressed that you're one of 89 accredited speakers in the world with Toastmasters International. Why did you first join Toastmasters? Well, I joined Toastmasters in 2005. We had a club at the Honolulu Police Department and they were trying to get enough members if they could charter and they asked me. And Rusty, at the time I was teaching classes at the police training academy. I was a lecturer at my church, had been one for 20 years. I'd even emcee a few weddings. So I thought, I have no problem with public speaking. And that's when they said, well, you should join so you'd be a good example for us to follow. So I thought, well, hit me right in the ego. Okay, so I joined the club. And I remember my first speech, Rusty. I didn't do so well. I bombed. I really, truly did. And it was, that's when I realized, hey, I needed Toastmasters. So I started attending the meetings regularly and taking on the different assignments. And I could feel my confidence was starting to build and I was getting better at my communication skills. You know, it's like going to the gym, right? You're not gonna get those muscles or lose that weight unless you do the exercises. So that's really what it is with Toastmasters. Toastmasters is the area is where you practice during your Toastmaster meetings, right? Because outside the door is what I call Superbowl moments when you go for the job interview for that position you always wanted or your boss tells you your pitch and the idea to the board of directors at their next meeting or Rusty Kamori calls you up and says, can you be a guest on my show? To me, those are Superbowl moments that everything you've done in your Toastmasters career is gonna prepare you for those Superbowl moments. So did you become accredited on your first try? No, no, the accredited speaker is the highest designation that Toastmasters International gives out to Toastmasters. There's only 89 of us and they've been doing this since 1980 something. It's a difficult or challenging process, I'll say. There's level one where you just submit your application with a video of you speaking in level two. Once you pass level one, you are invited to go into the world stage of the Toastmasters conference wherever it may be and you present in front of a live audience. And then of course you judge. So you judge at level one and at level two. And at level one, the first time I applied, I didn't make it. And I had to apply again. And then at level two, I went to Washington DC, I was on the world stage, which was an incredible experience, a thousand Toastmasters, you're on this huge stage with the Jumbotrons and everything. And I didn't make it. And I had to go back to Vancouver in 2017 and I finally got the nod. So I think the lesson there is failure is part of learning, right? Growing, right? That when we fail, it's just an opportunity to grow. So I know that I am a better speaker now because I failed at level one and at level two. It just increased my game. I had to perform better. And I think I did. Well, I know I did because I did receive the designation in 2017. No, you're right. I mean, failure is a part of success. And that's what people have to remember. And Bobby, right now you're a managing agent that's providing security for the National Football League. And there's a difference between security and law enforcement, right? There's a big difference. I served 30 years in law enforcement. I'd like to say I did pretty good at it. And then you leave, you retire and now you're gonna go into the security and you think, ah, security, I did law enforcement. So that security is a piece of cake, but it's not. And I have a lot of respect for the security professionals that I work with. They taught me a great deal and it is a whole different ball game. Still in the same realm, right? Still in the same realm, but just different. Securing an event rather than policing it really is two different things. Well, so, I mean, we're all constantly learning. I mean, the greatest leaders become greater because they're always learning. And for you, that's a really interesting insight right there, Bobby. And I wanna ask you about how important law and order is in society. And for me, I think that it's a good thing for police to receive more training rather than less. What are your thoughts? Yeah, training is of course needed. Training is the backbone of any law enforcement agency. Your officers or your law enforcement officers, they need to be trained properly. But along that goes with that. They also have to have the tools that they need to be successful and they have to have the support of the law enforcement agency that they're employed by. But more importantly, they need the support of the community that they serve. If you look back in the history of policing, Sir Robert Peale in London, who really is the father of policing. That's why they call him Bobby's. The London Bobby's after Sir Robert Peale. But he said, he said a lot of great things, but he said, the people are the police and the police are the people. It's just that the police, we're the ones or they're the ones that are being paid to do the policing. But really the responsibility is not only that law enforcement agency, but it's also the community. It's calling 911 when you hear your neighbors arguing or there's a problem, maybe there's some domestic violence or stepping forward when you see somebody stealing something. It really is everyone's responsibility. So I think that's really important that the community realizes that the success of the law enforcement agency, wherever jurisdiction you're in, is really relying on the community to provide their share of the safety and security that we all desire. And Bobby, I read your article that you wrote in the Star Advertiser about what you talked about there and that it's actually a social contract with the community and with law enforcement. So can you expand more about that article that you wrote? Certainly, there was, our law enforcement agencies have been under scrutiny and that's fine. I certainly hold them accountable for the decisions that are made. But again, the community has to realize that they're responsible as well. So in the article that I wrote the editorial to the newspaper, just talked about the social contract, which is this unwritten contract between the government and the government. And the government says, we'll make the rules and the government say, okay, and we'll follow the rules. And I think what's really happening is we're not following the rules any longer. And that's why we're having this breakdown. In the article I write about, if an officer pulls behind you and activates their emergency lights and siren, you comply and you pull over. And if the officer asks for your license, registration, insurance, you comply by providing it. And if the officer asks you to step out of the vehicle, you comply and you step out of the vehicle. The time to argue with an officer is not in the middle of the night when no one's around. If you feel the officer has done something incorrect, you can always go to the professional standards office of the Hong Kong Police Department to make a complaint. You can go to the police commission to make a complaint. You can hire an attorney and file a lawsuit. In other words, there are avenues for you to pursue. But when it's actually happening, just be compliant. Because if you're not compliant, the officer is gonna have to think, what's going on? Why is this person acting this way? And now they are heightened, why is this going on? And then use of force might come into play or it might not. But it just, everything goes really bad when you don't comply. And if you comply, there should be no problems. No, that's really good insights from you there, Bobby. And, you know, it takes, everybody has to realize that it takes a lot of courage for police officers to be police officers. I mean, officers, Tiffany and Kauleke, they're running to the danger while everyone else is running from the danger. What are your thoughts about that? I think, yeah, 100% right, Rusty. Officers, we ask our officers to protect us to the cost of even their own life. And sometimes maybe we don't realize it. I know as an officer, I never really dwelled on that. When I got dressed in my uniform and rolled out into the streets and tested with dispatch and ready for calls, I never really thought that I might not come home. And that's kind of far from your mind, at least it was for me. I can't explain about other officers, but you are ready to do whatever it takes to keep the community safe. And I think maybe sometimes we forget that our law enforcement officers are out there. And this is what we want them to do. We pay them to do that for us. We give them the equipment so that they are between the community and the good and the evil. So that's what we want them to do. So sometimes we forget that. And we're just people. We're just all people. We haven't done it, we're trained and we put a badge on and we ask for the authority, but we're just people. We're husbands and wives and daughters and sons. And we're just people like everybody else. But sometimes maybe that's forgotten. So again, it's the community supporting the police department or any law enforcement agency wherever you're at. Bobby, I wanna ask you about the element of risk or taking calculated risk because, I mean, officers, they have to respond within a split second if they're dealing with a real firearm situation where they could get shot or somebody else could get shot. So what's the element of taking calculated risks like in terms of when the officer is gonna respond? Yeah, 100% right. I mean, officers, they have a litany of duties or responsibilities. I mean, they're law enforcement. Sometimes they're social workers. They're on a, sometimes they're sitting their first aid, they're saving someone's life, maybe CPR or an AED or stopping bleeding at a crime scene. Officers have to wear so many hats that it's very challenging responsibilities for them. I think that it goes back to what we were talking about if you're not compliant, then the officers started thinking, why is this person not compliant? Did they just commit a crime? Are they gonna hurt me? Are they armed? And so now you're heightening the situation. So if you keep the situation calm and you comply and the officer is at ease a little bit more and then you can get through whatever it is that they're dealing with with you. But yeah, risk, it's a very risky business. But like I said, for me, I didn't really think about it a lot. I always thought about keeping myself safe first and foremost, but sometimes you're in a situation where you have to do what you have to do. No, that makes sense. And Bobby, I wanna ask you one more question before we wrap up. What's the most important thing you learned in life so far? Wow, so many things that are important in life, Rusty. I think the key is to be happy. I think that is the key to life. I know physically, if you're stressed, that's not good for your body, but if you're happy, that is. So I think that's the key to be happy. If you're in a job and you're not happy, get out. If you're in a relationship and you're not happy, get out. And realize that you're responsible for your own happiness. It's not your job, Rusty, to make me happy, right? It's my job to make myself happy is the choices that I make. And so I think that's probably the biggest takeaway in life so far for me is to be happy, be happy and have fun. Yeah, and sometimes so many people, they forget about things like that. I mean, they get caught up in all these complexities and they forget how simple life can be. And I like what you said about being happy. And Bobby, thank you so much for joining me on the show. I mean, you are somebody that definitely goes beyond the lines. Thank you, Rusty, it was my pleasure. And I'm very proud of you too, Rusty, for your book and all that you've done, sharing with other people. I know you've helped a lot of people and that really is what's important to in life, right? There's no success without successors and you are creating successors. So bravo to you, Rusty. Thanks, Bobby. And thank you for watching Beyond the Lines on Think Tech Hawaii. For more information, please visit RustyKamori.com and my books are available on Amazon and Barnes & Noble. I hope that Bobby and I will inspire you to create your own superior culture of excellence and to find your greatness and help others find theirs. Aloha.