 Good morning everybody. Thanks so much for coming to New America on this lovely Monday morning. My name is Kevin Kerry. I direct the education Policy program here. Welcome to all of you and everyone watching out there on the internet I'm very pleased to Introduce the second annual varying degrees survey on American higher education This is a core piece of work for our education policy program And I think it comes at a moment Where the national interest in higher education in many ways has never been higher We've seen over the last couple of years how the issue of college costs has become Front and center one of the defining issues in American domestic policy And I think we'll continue to see that as we ramp up to the next presidential election And people start to put their agendas and plans on the table We know it's been ten years since the last federal reauthorization of the higher education Act And the last one was ten years before that so 1998 2008 and now here we are in 2018 We have legislation from the House of Representatives being put on the table And while I think there's always probably a rational cause for pessimism when it comes to congressional action on legislation Nonetheless it does feel like this is a time once you know a couple times every generation where Congress comes together and really make some of the foundational decisions that Create the structure for everything that follows in higher education going forward And we obviously live in a very Political time and there's been some interesting dialogue over the last year year and a half about whether or not the partisan nature of the American political conversation is starting to bleed over into higher education which Historically has enjoyed broad bipartisan support. I would encourage everyone to really kind of dig into the findings There's a new set of questions in the Poll this year where we look very specifically at ideologically and party identification And while perhaps unsurprisingly there are differences among people of different party persuasions about their ideas on how much The public ought to fund higher education, which I think just reflects Kind of how ideologically differences are defined in the United States right now There remains a very strong bipartisan commitment to higher education particularly if you focus on the education part of it And not some of the kind of larger cultural issues that higher education sometimes intersects with Regardless of how people think about their politics. They really are very committed both to the idea of And the necessity of people going on to higher education for themselves for their children And they remain very supportive of the colleges and universities that they are most close to So there really is there's a wealth of information. You're gonna hear some of it today I hope you all have a chance to dig into the website it which has got a fantastic user interface where you can go and Ask all all the questions you want And hopefully all the answers will be there So now I'm gonna turn it over to new America's director of higher education Amy Lightman who will tell you more Amy Good morning again. Happy Monday morning. It really is Monday, isn't it? so thank you so much for coming and I just want to point out if you you know if it is too early and people don't really know what's going on There's a there's a hashtag for this. It's varying degrees and the website that Kevin alluded to with the data tool and all the funky Interesting information that you may be intrigued about and your interest may be peaked by right now You can find out more at varying degrees org So if you're like, oh, I want to know how this question sort of broke down by you know gender race Party identification any of those things you can sort of dig into it and find out. So it's up there So just a few quick things. I wanted to give some thanks to this the folks who worked on this So we have Rachel Fishman Ernest as we go and Sophie when is Sophie here? Hi Sophie in the background Who really did a ton of work to make all this happen? So thank you for that and thank you to the bill and Melinda Gates Foundation for underwriting this work and making it possible Just a quick thing. So I'm gonna go over some of the sort of high level findings of the data And if again if you have more questions at the end we can Rachel Fishman who's sort of who led this project can go into More detail and you can also dig into it at the website varying degrees org. So What I'm gonna do right now is I'm gonna go over some of the sort of high level findings And then after that there's we're gonna have two panels a student panel and a policy panel sort of talking about the implications of these findings and You know how other folks think about higher education But what we're gonna try to do today is because it is a Monday morning And maybe everybody here is a morning person except for me But I doubt that everybody's morning person But we're gonna try to sort of mix things up a little bit and we're gonna ask you all many of the same questions that we asked The 1600 respondents who we created the survey or we conducted the survey with so in a minute, I'm gonna ask you to pull out your smartphones and We're gonna sort of set you up to do some in-time poll technology something something something something something so One of the things that we did this year since it was an election year is we focused on We focused on a number of issues But we also looked at how different questions broke down by party affiliation and so you'll see as we go through some of these questions Where there are differences, there are actually a lot of places where there are not differences So if if there's a slide that doesn't talk about Democrats versus Republicans, it's because folks were pretty much on the same page So getting to the nuts and bolts of the survey so the survey for those of you who are you know Who want all the in the weeds if you have methodological questions, don't ask me ask Rachel But it was conducted between January 18th and February 8th of 2018. We sampled a thousand adults Ages 18 over we oversampled a few groups African Americans Hispanic Americans Asian Americans and North Carolinians, which you know, obviously So in North Carolina we chose because North Carolina is sort of a microcosm of sort of the changing America It's a purple state, you know, you have you have lots of different things in North Carolina like you have in Sort of America at large. So we thought that would be an interesting Place to dig into we had a sample of 1600 with a margin of error of plus or minus 4.3 percent And again, this is a nationally representative survey. So we are pretty confident that it represents America I want to Find out if the audience represents America. I have some thoughts about whether or not that's the case. So This is pre it's sort of, you know, fancy technology, but we're gonna use our hands for this So how many of you in the audience have an associate degree? Awesome. Oh, me too. Am I allowed to raise my hand, Rachel? Okay. Okay. So and now keep your keep your hands up if you Until you don't have the degree that is listed. How many of you have a bachelor's degree? Very representative. How many of you have a master's degree? Has everybody looking around and seeing lots and lots of hands are up Okay, how many of you have a PhD or a professional doctorate? Wow Fancy. Eric, you have a PhD. I have a doctorate. I do know. Oh, it's very nice. Okay. All right. Thank you And I'm just gonna call out random people in the audience Okay, great so This is probably probably very close to the American experience Do we think that that's the case? Probably not. Okay, so just showing you how you compare to the to the folks who we surveyed So we had associate degree 11% and there were like three of us, right? Bachelor's degree 25% this looked a whole lot closer to 100% to me Um postgraduate degree 18% wait, can we do that one again? Who has some sort of? postgraduate degree, okay 18% okay, and then 43% of the people who we surveyed did not have a college credential at all Which did not seem reflective of this room So okay, so we know we're a self-selective group and that's that's fine I mean you're coming to an event on a Monday morning about higher education in America So that is not surprising But okay, that just gives us some context. So now if you could pull out your phones We're gonna use a poll anywhere So this is just gonna set it up. So if you could text New America Ed It doesn't matter if it's it's not case sensitive to 2 2 3 3 3 Then hit enter It should It should tell you when you join the poll All right. Has anybody gotten the Response, okay good. All right. Well, we're gonna see if it works and we're gonna we're gonna First we're gonna ask you a question and we're gonna want you to vote a or b With a very it's one of the most pressing questions of the day Which is? Oops, oh, okay, hold on don't look at what that says Here so just we're just gonna get it and we're gonna test the technology now So for those of you Those of you may have heard of this there's this audio clip and oh really okay. Did you hear a Yanny or Laurel? And I'm gonna see if you all are wrong because I have very strong opinions about this This is the most shocking finding of her. I need to vote Okay, all right, well 64 percent of you are wrong 64 percent of you think that Yanny was no, that's not true So clearly the technology is flawed and we should give all of us up, but okay, so good So the technology is working. So just sort of keep this handy We're gonna go through some of the questions that we actually asked on the survey because we didn't know about this critical question Before the survey went to the field so Okay, so the first question that I want you all to answer is Agree or disagree there are lots of well-paying jobs that do not require college And you can see your choices there strongly agree all the way to strongly disagree All right, it's looking like we're getting some Someone's like I don't know neither oh And and for those of you in the in the interwebs those of you watching live streaming you can do this too And if you if you miss the original flight the directions are at the top on how to join the conference or the pole Okay Interesting, okay, so we've got you know about 40 ish percent of folks agree somewhat or strongly and then can I do math about About 60 ish a little bit close to 60 ish percent disagree somewhat, okay So now let's look at what our Respondents thought so wait and I added this up so about in total about 57 percent of folks Agreed that there were a lot of well-paying jobs that did not require college Which is sort of the inverse of where we are and then And then if you look at the next question we so we asked this two different ways last year We asked folks if there were lots of well-paying jobs that didn't require college and this year we asked The question two ways and did we ask was this a split sample of this? Okay, so we asked different folks representative groups Different questions, so we said there are lots of well-paying jobs that do not require education after high school And once we asked the didn't require education after high school. We changed the loaded term college the The numbers went down to for on the sort of agree to 48% so went down about 10 points from each of those so I think this I mean to me There's lots of interesting stuff in this just the idea that terminology really is so Means something very different to the group of folks Who we interviewed versus I think those of us in the higher ed space who at least for us or for me I guess I think of college is more broad and higher education is more post-secondary education But it's clear that college connotes something very different to you know different folks I mean the you know the president of the United States is confused about community colleges for example So it is not confusing that there are It's not surprising that there's some confusion around terms, but in addition to that I mean this is not a this is not a sort of survey a question worth This is this is a perceptions question, but the reality question I think might be an interesting one for the policy panel to take up whether or not There really are lots of well-paying jobs that don't require Education after high school because that is super interesting to me But then so we have that so you all are at odds with America Congratulations You know you hate America But then wait hold on oh, sorry Let's break this down a little bit by there is some difference by Republicans and Democrats on this question So again overall you have about 56% Agreed that there are well-paying jobs that don't require College, but you look and see that the Democrats and Republicans have a pretty big difference between how many of them agree So about 51% of Democrats and 68% of Republicans Think that you don't need college and then similarly for well-paying jobs that don't require education after high school You see even you know a sort of starker difference here of 40% or it's about 40% for Democrats and 60% for Republicans so And then this is an interesting question that you all will answer now which of the following statements is closer to your own view There are more opportunities for people who pursue education after high school or There are more opportunities for people who go into the workforce immediately after high school. Okay, all right Someone's like I'm gonna have that number Okay, this is probably not gonna move a lot I'm thinking with this group so We're gonna move on so While you are not representative of America as a whole we're sort of closer ish so if you if so these two green numbers are the strongly agree and Some would agree and so we have about 80% of Americans think it's better. There are more opportunities for folks who get education after high school Y'all were about 98% but okay, but what's interesting to me about this is you compare this the 80% with the Sort of 57% of folks who thought you know that there were lots of well-paying jobs That don't require education after high school So I don't really know what that means and the point of the survey wasn't to dig in what that means We were just asking for people's perceptions, but So you're sort of in line, but still out of touch again with America the swamp Okay, so a different type of question agree or disagree higher education in America is fine how it is There's always someone of the who's waiting to sort of see how they can weigh it in at the end Okay What's that lower in terms of what? All right, so overwhelmingly seems like this this group does not think that a higher education is fine the way it is All right, let's see how this is so it's about 90 percent 93 percent of y'all. What's that? Only seven percent agree. Yep and Americans Americans you are not Americans We don't count as people in America because we live in the Beltway So one in only one in four People think that higher education is fine the way it is so not in terms of the broad population People do not think it's fine 75 percent of folks think it is not fine the way it is So you all are more extreme, but the still the Tendency is is the same like folks are dissatisfied with it And so and if you'll see here that we don't break this out by Republicans and Democrats And that's because they're basically the same on this question So they're like nope not find the way it is and we didn't get into you know We didn't do focus groups on these they really were just asking folks questions but when in other questions we asked about Higher education basically the top reason the Republicans and Democrats Gave for higher education not being find the way it is wouldn't be surprising shouldn't be surprising is that it's not affordable or accessible So affordability and access issues are are the main concerns. Okay next question Which of the following statements is closer to your point of view regarding funding for higher education? The government should fund higher education because it is good for society Okay, or students should fund their own education because it's a personal benefit This is very shocking to me with this group of people Okay All right, so overwhelmingly 93 percent of you all think government should fund higher education because it's good for society and Our broader sample it was about 60 percent of of folks thought that Compared with 27% who say students should fund it because it's a personal benefit and here's where we look out and we see And you you may or may not be surprised to know that there are some party differences in how this was out so Democrats are what did I add this one up? Somebody add those green ones up? 75 thanks Think that the government should fund higher ed Because it's good for society versus. What are those numbers down there 30? Thanks, look at all the higher education in this room all the math that can be done So but it's all actually if you add it's the the gray one to Rachel do we add that the grayish one is part of the the gray green People light gray the dark gray people who refused to answer the question the way that we Asked it and they said it's both we didn't give them that choice, but they were a pain and that reflected there so So that is so that's interesting right and can you know give us some food for thought as we think about the policy environment We're in but then again in the you know just in the vein of people are complicated and contradictory Then we asked to this question I am comfortable with my tax dollars supporting higher education and you'll look and you'll see the strong majority of both Democrats and Republicans agree with that premise And so there is a difference between Democrats and Republicans, but still a Solid majority, so it's 85 percent of Democrats and 63 percent of Republicans are Okay with their tax dollars supporting higher education, so You know it's as we think about these questions sort of individually versus more broadly You know I think when you put your money where your mouth is like am I willing to spend my money on this? It seems that higher education still enjoys pretty bipartisan support, so that's just a sort of High-level snapshot of some of the major findings of the survey But there's as I said lots of great content to sort of dig into what you can dig into at varying degrees.org and All right, and I'm at a time right okay great So I'm gonna introduce the person who's leading our next panel, so Eric Waldo He's the moderator and he is not only a doctor of law Dr. Dr. Waldo He's the executive director of former first lady Michelle Obama's reach hire initiative and he's the executive vice president For education at Civic Nation, so he's gonna introduce our fabulous student panelists, so thank you for your time Thanks for taking the questions and for you know being a non-representative sample of America Good morning everybody All right, so thank you Amy. Thank you new America. Thank you to the varying degrees team Rachel and everybody We're really excited to be here this morning As Amy mentioned I run the reach hire initiative which was started by former first lady Michelle Obama During her time at the White House you may know she actually herself as a first-generation college graduate So we started reach hire with the idea that we wanted to encourage young people Especially first-generation students to pursue their education past high school whether a two-year degree a four-year degree a community college Or so certificate credential actually we have a pretty great representative group here to talk about that And I think what we want to do is really have a conversation We're gonna have a conversation for about 45 minutes. We're gonna talk about These young people's experience currently in higher education in their views We're gonna open it up to you guys for questions So as you're hearing some of these responses if you're thinking about some of the data that you already saw Please have your questions ready because we'll have a Q&A at the end and again, you know, I think it's really critical I'm so thrilled that new America did this work But I think it's people who work in the policy space thinking about higher ed So often it's clear that we're talking in groups that look like this right that are not representative of The experience that people are having out in the country that are ever represented of the educational experience that people are having or the family or Economic experience, which is a question. We didn't ask to this room But I would map based on the education profile of this group that we also have an economic profile That does not map on to some of the experiences that our young people are going through to get through their education So I think I hope that you will really take this as a great advantage It's incredible group of young people who want to tell you about what their experiences and how that might inform your policy views So we're gonna go ahead and get started. I actually would just like each of you guys to introduce yourselves. So To my immediate left we have Ariel Ventura lasso are you want to tell your experience on your first-generation college student college graduate? Do you want to tell us what your experience has been? How did you get to be? Why are you on this panel? Well a lot brought me to this panel. I am a first-generation American first-generation college student as well My mother was not afforded the opportunity to attend College or post-secondary education And so she basically gave me every advantage that I have today Let me see. I was a 1.6 GPA high school graduate, which is that's really low. I Actually failed my senior year in in high school had to repeat it almost dropped out at that point when I found out that I was gonna stay another semester and Eventually I did graduate with that 1.6 GPA. I did what all of my friends were doing, which was transferring to the community college Given my GPA and I did one semester community college at the same time. I was working full-time I wasn't mentally prepared or I didn't have the aptitude to To really you know take advantage of the opportunity that I had and so I failed every class that I had that semester dropped out I took a five-year hiatus In that time I also had you know the semester after I dropped out. I also had a baby had a son so I became a young parent and I felt like I had to work I like I said I returned after five years because I just was not with a high school education It just was not enough in the workforce or it just wasn't enough opportunities for me. And so I decided to return More serious this time had scholarship Programs and support groups and everything that was they were all in my corner backing me up It's encouraging me to follow and pursue that post-secondary education and my first semester back I I achieved my 4.0 GPA and I figured out like man. This is really awesome and And so I took at that point I started taking education just a little bit more serious But at this it was still difficult. I had it obviously dropped back hours on Working being employed had to drop back hours on that which ultimately resulted in my family navigating a lot of social services family services systems up until just recently and You know just last year It's interesting you said who here as your associates degree last year on Mother's Day My wife and I we walked across the stage with our children watching as they saw their parents received their first College degree for each of their families my wife as well She's a first-generation American and so I think that we really just changed the trajectory of our family going forward because our kids Got to see their parents walk across at least some stage and we're still pursuing our bachelor's currently right now I'm at George Macy University Well, thank you Next we have Orhan Patsyev Orhan is actually finishing an apprentice program It has also sort of a community college to traditional college story or tell us why you're here. What's been your journey? Yeah, so one of the when I graduated high school. I did graduate with a 3.6 Going to a four-year university was an option for me. And that's what I was planning to do same with my both my parents they have their bachelors and that's what they want me to do but They kind of being in high school they we had a little commercial about apprenticeship where they Showed us basically a new company starting up or Companies that have been in Charlotte, North Carolina for a while that do apprenticeships and And and I thought that was a great opportunity because I'm going to a four-year college I thought I'm gonna go to college for years and then I'm gonna come out of college And I'm not gonna have that hands-on experience with what I'm gonna do after I graduate university So what the apprenticeship offered was two-year degrees that but it was a four-year program Graduating from a two-year college and having a job after you graduate and I Personally thought that was a great opportunity for me And I also thought that after doing that I could go and get my bachelors whenever I want to so I went with the Apprenticeship program And and you also did community college at the same time, right? Yeah, that's where I worked I worked for seamless energy. That's where I did my apprenticeship with And I'm still doing it now, but I graduated a two-year degree from there and with their with their help I'm able to go and continue on my education to get my bachelor's degree and I also did a another mechanical engineering Which they helped me out with it also with their schedule and I Was able to get to associate's degree with them four years. Well, join me in welcoming Orhan to the panel Last but not least we have Ruth a set a sepa sweet. Got it. All right Ruth is currently a student of Washington College. She's pre-med Ruth. Tell us about your experience your parents come from immigrant background You know, how did college or going to school come into your world? Both my parents went to college in Ethiopia But being from an immigrant family It's always hard to apply for college because they're not helped. They're not able to help you in that process But I think definitely having a mentor like helps me Rachel's my mentor actually And I think that like having a person that is helping you someone that went through college They're helping you with the application They're helping you fill out fast fun like all these information that you're not really sure about I think that's really beneficial Great. And so just to kind of open it up for what's all together I Also Benjamin Banneker high school DC graduate. Yeah, all right. We got some DC in the house. Yes Well guys, I mean, I don't know when I was your age. I was not being asked to DC think tank panels But but I think it's you're seeing these issues. You're seeing these surveys Something that we didn't put up on there is that basically, you know, you guys all fit into the demographic of generation Z you know today's young people are being called Generation Z and You know, some of the surveys all results also talks about the fact that four out of five of Generation Z young people believe that higher education better prepares you for the workforce And also similarly basically, you know, not four out of five generations He believes that the government should fund higher education when you talk to your friends and you know You think of their experiences versus your experience Do you feel how emblematic of your peers? Do you feel like you feel like you just sort of you were lucky or do you think you were unlucky? Like how do you feel like this has worked out for you compared to what your friends are going through? Did this was do these survey results make sense to you? I feel like they do. I Mean, I if I feel like I feel blessed and everything all the opportunities granted to me Just from being a parent in school Just working adult in school that that can be a very difficult thing to manage I mean being a traditional student is hard enough as it is being a non-traditional first-generation is That's something else. And so I feel like I'm lucky. I know that my friends experiences they You know, they may differ from don't feel That higher education or post-secondary education has a value So they decided to just go different routes, but what are some of those routes? just going to the workforce or You know joining pyramid games We do not endorse that here well, but um Those are some of the routes. I just think that they can you know, just Join the workforce and probably climb the corporate ladders What are what it or Hanruth? What is what are you seeing your friends going through? What is their experience been? So I would probably answer a very good question what my friends doing what I do Traditional for your college, I think It's great going to a four-year college to get a higher education and all that is great But since I am an apprentice that kind of seen what I've been through and what my friends burn to Many apprenticeship programs down in Charlotte area including Siemens energy for who I work with One of the things that rare beneficial is I go I go to a it's a two-year college But I also I get hands-on experience and one of the things that the company does for us They pay for our tuition for our books calculators pens pencils rulers whatever you need they cover it And while I sit in class from let's say I have two classes from eight o'clock in the morning till four o'clock They pay hourly for me to sit in class. So I get paid while I'm at School while I'm at work. I'm getting my school education and I'm also getting my work hands-on skill work Education because I work with mentors every day stuff we do at Siemens very Technologically advanced we work with a million dollar parts a little mess up Could cost the company millions of dollars. So that's why we do a four-year program where companies work We work with mentors and kind of qualify us after four years to be qualified And those as program like Siemens that's doing that What is you know if you start at Siemens or could you could you have started at Siemens a knock-on on to the four-year school? Could you have started after finishing this accreditation? I could have they they do hire Not only high school students, but they also hire adults Even though they have their college experience, but I Get I Guess one of the one of the things that they're really Yeah Sure, it's just really you know where you would you've been able to I know you're continuing your education You got your community college certificate. You're finishing the certificate program But you're also going out you've decided to keep going and get now get a four-year degree Yeah, could you have started without that four-year degree? I think I could have but it'll be harder for me to I guess find a job afterwards because I'm a qualified work at Siemens they're not gonna let me go because they invest so much money in me but but but but but just Finish it my four-year degree and just going to try to find a job at Siemens I'm pretty sure they're not gonna hire me they would want at least five-year experience all the jobs openings I'm looking at they always require five years five years bachelor's if you five years So that's something I would have my education, but I won't have my right Ruth, you know, I know you're thinking about being you know, you're pre-med You know you're you're at college right now You talked about being that that that immigrant experience doing things like the FAFSA Did you find that your high school experience prepared you for that? Were you ready? You know and then same question. What do you think when you talk to your peers? Are they sort of like oh, this is terrible. We're happy about our college experience. What are they feeling and thinking? I Think that coming I I personally went to Benjamin Banneker academic high school So we have like a hundred percent graduation rate So it's very prepared us for college and I think that one thing they could have improved on was maybe like emphasis more on writing But I think that for what was the second part that sort of really did to think about you know What's been the experience when you think about how how they're valuing their education? Do they feel like they know why they're in college or do they feel like you know? You have a purpose that you're trying to get a medical degree Do you feel like your your peers know what they want out of their education? I think that definitely coming from that school most of my peers are friends from Banneker I think that they really take their education seriously great, so You know just to take it back to your area like you talked about yourself as a non-traditional student But I would actually tell you we now have more data showing that your experience is actually more common What we think of today, you know, maybe people think oh everyone's just gonna be 18 years old and just graduate from high school And gonna sit and stay at a college But actually the Gates Foundation that funded some of this research has done surveys to show that more and more people are actually Non-traditional students that people are working while they're in college people, you know may have a family that they're taking care of so you know Do you feel like you talked about having to navigate the social services experience? Did your college understand that like did they were they able to help you do that? Or did you have to sort of figure it out on your own I? Feel like my community college They were open and they have a lot of resources available on their campuses Because in their community college, so they're more prone to that so that at a community college level I did see a lot of supports they had programs for You know a lot of non-traditional students including, you know older students that were a career shifting at the age of 50 55 so they had a program that supports for every kind of student very diverse, but at the University level I see that it's a little bit different I just transferred last fall and I see that it's a little bit more difficult to navigate they're geared more towards the you know traditional students per se and it's a little bit more difficult to kind of see the exposure that they get for the services But at the community college level I would say that yeah, they were So what would be your piece of advice to the college for how they could better support students like you for the For the university just provide funding for different clubs organizations programs and just bring attention to it because at the university I just really don't see it So give us like an example you talked about you've got two young kids at home Your wife also is a first-generation student like what's a day-to-day challenge that you had that you feel like the university just didn't understand Maybe there's like too many to name. Yeah. Well, for example one just getting here this morning Traffic is insane, but no matter where you go in this area traffic though is insane Public transportation getting to school getting getting to school is a big obstacle I think housing with a very a difficult obstacle that we just this past year figured it out and Say a little bit more about that. So housing basically We were my wife and I we were living at my mom's house for a long time Then we moved out and moved to nearby Woodbridge It's about maybe 30 40 minutes from here Which is further out, but it's cheaper and we rented a basement there And one of the supports that we actually looked into there's like a tax income tax Property program that they have in in Lorton, Virginia, which is not too far from here, which is just reduced rental rates they pretty much have a price ceiling on how high the rent could be for a certain level income families and so we were able to manage to get into one of those and It's I think it's about five hundred dollars less than what the average rent would be for the area But we were able to manage to land to land in that spot Which was awesome, but we were looking for the last I think five or six years It was just not happening and You know at the time when we would have qualified for like section eight back when my son was born in 2010 The lists were closed for years They weren't gonna open up for an expected another five to ten years And there's still it's just never happening in this area. So housing is really difficult for low-income families here All right, so you're talking about housing. We talked about transportation. What about the food side? I think you're not on the you're not on the meal plan That was a very next thing. Um, and so we also had a supplemental And so basically we managed that we navigated that for the last few years and a lot of the processes which were difficult Was like renewals renewals for that and also childcare would be the very next thing just kind of renew renewing the paperwork For it it'd be every three to six months depending on your situation And it required I mean the only thing it like left to require was like your blood sample basically because they meant they had you bending over backwards Bugging your super about your employer your supervisor for you know signatures every six months Which you know verify work schedules verify your last three pay stubs and it's like well That's not that's not really on their plate to be that's not really on a place to be doing But that's not what the county sees it We were on TANF temporary assistance for needy families that was something else as well We had to submit employment verification school verifications monthly and it was just very difficult to to obtain We obtained it as long as we could until we made it out that The maximum income limit for that and also sometimes to note on that it just feels like When you are I guess in the system navigating the systems they really look at you more so as a number or you feel more so as a number that's how you perceive it sometimes because Really they're just trying to get you to make that dollar amount over so that you're not on the program So they can say my case is like reduced now or whatever Rather than you know taking a targeted approach to actually help the family long term I feel like it's just more of a short-term solution. So there's a lot of work That still needs to be done for family services. Yeah, and so that's food. That's housing transportation and my you know my son and my daughters Daycare right expenses. Yeah, so and one thing that's common to all of your experiences And that I think we hear both in survey data and conversations around the country around higher education is cost So we talked about the facts the free application for federal student aid So, you know, we think about scholarships within about tuition This starting with you would tell us, you know, how did both how are you thinking about pain for college coming up? And how has the pain for college now change review of what the government should do? I mean, you know, there's a big conversation about free college about free, you know Graduate without debt. How concerned are you about, you know, the cost of college when I first got my college application and I started looking at my Like financial aid and it was like very hard to read it as like and as an immigrant Like I was trying to ask my parents for help and I couldn't figure out what anything meant I think like they use the parent plus loans. They use a different name for it so that I didn't even know what it was I didn't know what it was until I asked Rachel and I think that it's it's very difficult like figuring out what it means Where things go? It's like it's very complicated But I think that I've been very fortunate to have a lot of scholarships that pay for my Education and how is that tracked with your friends experiences? Have they were they all same challenges of like filling out the FAFSA or navigating scholarships and tuition? Um, I think that they've also had a challenge looking at that looking at their financial aid award and not really understanding I mean some of my friends don't really know How they're paying right now for college, which is kind of scary to think about like just they're just going into it Like just blindsided. I think I'm like that you need to like ask like someone else for like help I think Orin, how have you thought about the paying for school as Siemens helping or how how did you think about the financial side of college? Yeah, so After graduating high school, that's one of the things I was looking at Different universities and how much it costs for living and the tuition and all that stuff It was really expensive and with me and my family. I did not qualify for For financial aid or anything even though I did fill it up or and with the apprenticeship program I got my two associates degrees within the four years and I with the I only paid about $2,000 out of pocket within those four years for the two degrees. Everything else was covered under Siemens really and the only thing that I I paid is gas to get to school And And when you tell you know, you talked about that you could have done four year You talk about your friends who went that path when you tell them that you've got, you know These two associates degrees and you only paid $2,000. What's what's their reaction? Definitely all of my friends are in school debt right now So trying to pay for housing work double shifts or or just They work in a job where it doesn't affect their education really So I'm just fortunate enough where I could I could make money while it's bettering me To to get skills for my for for my work for my job And I'm getting a school education. So that's what most of my friends are jealous about really got it. Yeah Ariel, how did you navigate the the financing of your education? So my route after high school When Ruth was mentioning was that like very the whole financial aid process can be very difficult Or overwhelming especially Being first generation Just because you really don't know, you know, what you're doing and so My first time around I was pretty much handheld through high school to get into that first, you know You transfer over to my community college But then that after that five-year hiatus I had to figure out how to redo that process all over again Which I still didn't know I when I finally decided to get back into school It was because of a scholarship program for teen parents actually based out here in dc And so they basically helped me You know signed up even for the financial aid process and I was able to pair the financial aid the Pell Grant with a scholarship and then going forward I ended up earning five more scholarships I would apply for literally every scholarship that I was eligible for and I mean I just had the mentality that the worst I can say is no and so that basically earned me five more scholarships Which is that's I've self funded my education through the scholarships And the Pell Grant pair together and so The associates agree. I mean I haven't paid anything for my associates degree because of that and I'm in My I'm entering my third semester this fall at George Mason University And still I'm not coming out of pocket because of these scholarship programs in the Pell Grant that's available to me When you talk to your same thing when you talk to peers family members other folks about the payment system Do you know how are they how are other people navigating there? Or what's the sort of I think the psychological toll of people being worried about how are they going to pay for school? How much is it going to cost how much debt are they going to have? How does that make people feel what what are you observing among your friends? Who maybe aren't as lucky to have all these scholarships. They're they're not I tell them I'm not trying to encourage them to apply for whatever they're eligible for a lot of the time They just think that oh listen, I'm not I'm not going to get it. I'm not going to be the one to earn a scholarship Um, but it's just having the mentality that you know You have to try at least Do you know people who've applied? Or who haven't gone to college or haven't even tried to go to school because they just think they're not going to get the money I I know a lot of people I'm currently talking to a young father right now That he's uh looking to go into school. He doesn't know what he wants to do and he's kind of worried about the payment I'm just like well, you know, you're eligible you're probably eligible for financial aid even a little bit But give that a try Their scholarship programs they financial aid doesn't pull through that you might be eligible for and they're just kind of Like on the borderline like they don't know exactly what they want to do still So all this you know, you saw some of the survey results People think and this is across the spectrum that government should pay more for school Um, what do you guys think about that? I mean, do you think what what could we do to make college more affordable for young people? What would make the biggest difference in your lives? so well One of the things I think at least first two years of college should be Covered on the government like the question we had does the education kind of Should the government pay for it because it benefits you or the or I mean, I'm not quite remember how the question went but I think the government should because It just better is the government. I guess if I do have a higher education. I could get a better job and pay more taxes But um, but um, yeah That's I think that it should help Families that are lower income and also parents like I think sometimes There's been situations with some of my friends Like they might have been like a few dollars from like the Pell Grant, but they're still not eligible So they still have to pay like 20 thousand dollars when they can't afford that I think so like more better assistance from the government I think uh, I think free education as far as probably um, two years after high school probably Something that's maybe more appealing Because I think after high school people just kind of students high school students seniors probably get the idea Like how am I gonna pay for this? I'd rather not and it just kind of I feel like you know if you were Yeah, I just feel like if you uh, you know add an additional two years. I might be more You might give the idea that you know, you can just At least give it a try and if you fail, you know at least you tried So, you know, we're learning more and more about Surveys like this that tell us that young people I think 71 percent of generation z from the survey says that cost is the barrier And I'm curious when in your educational experience you had that thought or if you did, you know Was it when you're applying when you're a senior is it when the financial aid officer talked to you? Or is it middle school elementary school when when did you start thinking about education higher education? I think that like when I first started applying for colleges If you look at the cost it's some of the schools are like $59,000 and I'm thinking to myself if every person pays that where's the money going to that's what my first question is if everyone's I'm just thinking like where if every single person every individual is paying that much Where like like sometimes I need the data to like show me like where that money's going to I think that was my Yeah, when did you start thinking about the cost factor of your education? Was it when you were in the application process? Was it earlier because I'm actually curious to think about To the extent that we if we change the outputs if we said, you know, we're going to pay for two years of community college If we're going to pay for four years that the government's going to make a different investment You know how that might change, you know, some of your aspirations But when did the cost factor start entering into your mind? Well, I guess Since 11th or 12th grade when I really started looking into it I mean, that's not something that I was thinking about since I was a kid, but once I started thinking about going to a university Looking at the numbers from different universities who just chalked me $7,000 $10,000. I mean, that's that's something That I personally can't afford just to go and do that without working with them. So In my high school years, that's where I started looking at it And I was glad I found the apprenticeship program. Like I said, which covered almost 98% of my expenses Hey, I wanted went or I wanted this, you know, I think that's um I think that's my fault really because I really didn't Pay attention to like how I was going to pay for college until probably the last few months of my senior year where I was You know, I found out that I was going to graduate and so I had no idea. Um, the financial aid process That I was assisted with You know helped me cover it but I still didn't know how it was going to work. Um, as far as You know, it's more than just classes and tuition It you know, the programs that you have to buy for certain classes the textbooks the transportation how to get there You know, the time invested in going to school not working As well, that's like, you know, a cost factor as well. And so I didn't I would say I'd be my last year Of high school. That's when I really started paying attention to and I had no idea How I would pay for it if it wasn't for financial aid. I'm looking at all these thousands of dollars Per semester to go to school and I'm just like, I don't know I think about how much time folks like school counselors spend like trying to help and coach folks on the k-12 side And then for a lot of students you get to college and you're taken out of the big support network There's maybe less support systems in the higher ed system Um, how have you found then once you got to college, you know, how is the system itself supported you or how Is it sort of you feel like you're on your own or is there a good support system at your college to help Or at your university at your your apprentice program to help you navigate what you want to do and and how you're going to pay for things and Problems that arise when you're in school Um with my scholarship program we meet um together Very very frequently and we also have like a coordinator who helps us Like individually and I think having that support system is very important Especially like from my first especially from an immigrant family Uh, you're you're having this is like your first time being alone And I think having that tighten it like community is very important And also like, um, I think it's very important to have like writing centers We have in our in my school. We have like a lot of different programs We have peer tutors and all those Like resources that I think it would help a student that First time coming to college Oran, what are the support systems like at your school? Well, I would I would say that in my high school I said I didn't get much support. Okay, where the teachers would be The teachers would say hey, you need to do well to get into a good college You need to keep up But I haven't had a counselor sit with me and do all that stuff unless you of course go to the counselor yourself But I think that's the high school. They should be more involved But when I got into college, um I don't know. Maybe it's just personal to me my counselor But every every semester who would email and sit down with me talk about What's going on if I need any help, um, I think college It was very very involved. So you had a more supportive experience once you got to your college program Yeah I also had more of a supportive experience when I entered community college. They um, I had this program That's called the adult career pathways program Um, and it involved a lot of thoroughcase management. Um, they would assess Actually, my advisor counselor was my wife and my advisor And so she really was familiar with our situation being young parents and uh, just kind of also being aware of the other additional supports that we might need um, and Whenever we needed anything she knew what to do for us. She worked with us throughout the whole process. Um, we had a car breakdown and She suggested it was called at the time the working student success network, which is now called the financial stability program And uh, they basically provide a financial budgeting uh I guess sessions they have emergency grants Which we actually each utilize throughout the process because our car broke down in various times All we were in school that we needed to get to those doctor's appointments We needed to get to the class needed to get to work and everything just needed to you know, work out for it to be okay and just be able to make it and Just having that thoroughcase management with that program at the community college day They helped us get through if I don't thank you for those for them I still think either we'd be there. We would have probably had dropped out Those and can I ask those emergency grants like was was it you had to apply for each time? Or was it just sort of like a five hundred dollar cap or what was the how did that work? It was a five hundred dollar cap. Um, you're absolutely right And you do have to apply for it each time and we'll go through the process Yeah, it has to be considered has to be obviously deemed an emergency which it was each time and um You know, they were able to provide that but then also the scholarship program that I'm in also has an emergency grant As well up to a thousand dollars per year after each scholar and so I was able one semester which was last year um My final semester my car broke down my engine just blew up on the highway on 495 And I was that guy causing traffic. So I apologize for you there that morning I was in the middle of the highway and my engine blew up and I was just there and on a state trooper came and pushed me pushed my vehicle was really awkward and Um, anyways, I needed to get my engine I needed I needed to get my engine fixed or whatever happened to it and it ended up costing a lot and they I paired up the Scholarship programs emergency grant with the working students assessment was emergency grant They were able to provide me a larger amount in order to get my car fixed That's such a good thing to hear back because I think the the research indicates that people are dropping out of college for For fees that's five hundred dollars or less. That's usually what leads someone to drop out too many places Don't have emergency funds or you find out that a young person Doesn't know how to navigate that and so they often say well now I can't get to school anymore I can't pay for this bill. How am I going to do this? So that's a really encouraging program to hear about Can I just ask you guys I feel like part of the premise of this conversation? I don't even you know, I absolutely don't work into america But from my perch and the work that I do is we're trying to get young people to believe in the value of education And I think that More and more you see surveys or as an op-ed in the new york times a few weeks ago saying You know, there's this premise now that a lot of people are saying well college isn't for everyone or education higher education isn't for everyone You know, it's sort of the is is college worth it? And when they say college, I mean I think of that as a as past high school Um, what when you hear people saying that maybe a higher education is not worth it now that you know All of you are are experiencing your higher education experience. You're seeing the difference in different ways What would you tell those people who who are writing these stories saying I don't know if it's worth it for everyone? I think I think um, it can be a huge misconception for some people because that was my misconception the first time I failed and I think just failure is Is um, it's really a prerequisite for success and a lot of people don't see it that way the first time And so that's when I came back and tried again. I failed my senior year in high school and I came back I failed my first semester in college like even though I took five years later I came back and give another try and so I I thought that college wasn't for me at the time. Maybe I just wasn't ready for it. Um, but then just kind of seeing um, You know just kind of visualizing what the finish line might look like if I do a finish college that motivated me to get back in in school What would you tell people who who are saying well, I don't I don't know if college is worth it I think I think college should be for everyone well one of the main reasons as me being a school student and um And uh and working at the job which is still like school because I am learning stuff as an apprentice at work um One of the things is I learned so many stuff at school that I would not learn at work But also I'm learning so much stuff at work that I won't let learn at school And I think I think I think that's very important for people that to understand that school teaches you so much where you could apply at work, but If there's more apprenticeship apprenticeship stuff going on in the United States I think that people would also also benefit from that learning from the two world Great, um, I think that uh the question that you asked was the question I have is Like who motivated you to say that you said to potential to say that you're not going to be good in college I think that having like good teachers early on and having that motivation or your parents telling you that you're smart And then you can pursue I think that has a big motivation on like people pursuing higher ed Like I'm pursuing this because my teachers in high school or middle school told me that I could do better I think that that having that and a lot of times Uh students, especially from lower income They're I think they're always looking at the cost and they always hear about a lot of horror stories about people Having a lot of debt and not paying for it. And then they're looking at there's The way that they're looking at it is if I don't get an education then I don't have to pay the debt But I would what I would tell them is that if you get in a good job a potentially good job You can start paying off those loans and then that will potentially pay off, right? It's still the best investment you can make in yourself You're investing in yourself exactly So I think that what's interesting also about this survey and you know is the reason We saw some of those breakdowns in the conversation around republicans versus democrats and we don't have to talk about our own political affiliations, but You know i'm fascinating to the extent that we're now seeing this divide so much of of our policy debates in the country Do you feel like people are experiencing a different world and now we're seeing higher education? Which may be a generation ago everyone thought was a prerequisite for success now It's being viewed also as a political thing that if you're going to get a higher education some of that's going to Turn you into a liberal democrat or that institutions of higher education Are having this effect that's now You know we're seeing this this political polarization on campuses as well and therefore affecting our attitudes around college campuses Has that been your experiences? Are you seeing that on your campuses or what when you see these stories that now Based on maybe your political parties, whether you value college. What does how does that make you feel? I I mean I value college, but I don't feel like I should be put in a certain Section because I value college um because i'm not I mean i'm not running a campaign or anything I mean do you want to announce anything today? No Um And so just because I'm I value college or go to school. I don't I don't feel I should be tied to any certain political affiliation of Especially um, you know given the situation Um, I'm just trying to improve my circumstances Circumstances for my family and just improve the situation that I'm in Or does this make sense to you like when you see that data like what do you think? Yeah, I think I'll just do an aerial here. Um, I think my education is kind of a I don't think it should be political. I think it's as a best people I think Education before everyone like we said and it doesn't matter which party you and I think it's just I think government should sponsor it Um, I think that this is just another polarization uh topic, but like, um, I think that Democrats and republicans should come together And like bridge the gap and support higher ed dance Um, well, I think you know what might be just a useful thing for this group You have a pretty exceptional group in this room of policy makers of thinkers of influencers Who maybe don't always get to hear your stories? You've already shared so much about your own personal experiences But as we're trying to advocate so that more people can so the government does invest more or we can get And that state that's local. That's federal Um, but also it's thinking about how colleges and college presidents are going to change How they're asking you to pay for things or how you're they're providing you support services What's the one thing you would want? This group to know about your experience that they should think about that should change the way they view about higher education What's the one fix or a big takeaway you want people to have? I would say that um, I was here with my, uh, college president last year, uh, scott ross President of northern virginia community college and he said something that resonated Uh, that was just it was just so real to me at the time when he spoke and he said that um, oftentimes And it comes down to the emergency grants and the support systems for students and you said oftentimes a lot of them Uh are less than 500 dollars, you know, and then they drop out and a lot of you know Students are oftentimes one carburetor away from dropping out of school And so that a little bit of support or whether it be a program set in place that asks these questions With a counselor that that sits down with them and asks what's going on You know, is there any supports that you need just to stay enrolled in school because it's going to make a big impact On your life and on your family I feel like that would be really important But then just also at the same time just if the college can also Not look at you as a number as well as a statistic or just You know just kind of taking account everything that might be going on Um, and like I said just take a targeted approach and not just uh, you know Put me in this box and they try to get me out the box, you know, so I feel like just um, thorough case management would be would be really awesome. But just keep in mind that Um, you know, everybody's probably going through, you know, everybody has the challenges and um, You know a dropout It could be for a number of reasons Thank you Martin, what's the what's the thing you want the group folks in this room to take away from your experience that could improve, you know Improve the lives of other students. I think as an apprentice. I could say that there's higher education Which is great, but then there should be more apprenticeship programs because for students that really can't afford to go to college Um, there'll be more students more people going into college and also getting Hands-on experience at the job at the same time, which they won't have to go and search for jobs later after they do graduate I think I think apprenticeships should be more here Um, I always think to myself like if if you just think about all the experiences that you've had Um, like looking back at that I think that you've had those experiences because of your parents and because of who your parents were And I think that growing up or being born into a family that is unfortunate I think that everything that you've ever had is because of who your mom and your dad are but I think that Like for people that are from lower income families Uh, like you're I think a lot of times that they're being punished for who their parents are They're being punished for something that they cannot control And I think that just giving those people advantages in life and helping them succeed Absolutely Well, we're going to take q&a first but for first we go to q&a. Can we just give our panel a big round of applause? So I know you were had wrapped attention You were tweeting all the great kernels of wisdom to hashtag varying degrees So I'm sure there's a great conversation online. We'll all look at on later But I'm sure you were also thinking about the questions you wanted to ask I see we've got two mic runners if you have questions for the panel This is your chance to ask real college students apprentice program students. What's going on in their lives? And can you just say your name where you're from? I'm Elaine Weiss and for about the past six and a half years. I've run an education policy program focused on mostly k12 And we're looking at all the intersections between poverty and race and education and advocate for a very Schools to look comprehensively at kids like all you guys are talking about and for kids who are coming from families born with lots of disadvantages lack of opportunity lack of enrichment Systems of education that marry communities and schools so that we can wrap supports around kids and figure out What do you need and my question for all of you is You know, and I think that the answer would be yes Wood systems like that where colleges look at all of these various factors for kids Make a big difference and should four-year colleges be starting to do that as well now that we're seeing Kids who are homeless students who are homeless at four-year colleges students who aren't eating Because they're trying to pay for four-year colleges. How high a priority do you think a system like that should be? All right, so guys How can we get do you think higher ed should fix the systems approach so that we're offering student supports to young people? I think I think yeah, I think the students should always be first Regardless because A lot of times especially like for proper colleges. It's all about making money Oftentimes university can also follow the same concept as well or some colleges as well But it should always be student focus and student-based In order to benefit the student I feel And I say yeah, I think they should Bring light to the fact that we do have we have a very diverse population of students at our colleges Which can be veterans student parents can be homeless students Just a wide The wide population so yeah Systems approach to fix student experiences on campuses. Yeah, I mean I would say yes Because people trying to go to college not because maybe they like to go to college It's because they're trying to graduate and get a get a successful nice job And I think the government should support that because it's not only benefiting the students But also benefiting the government also, I think um, I also think that there should be more programs in place especially for aerial said like Teen like or like yeah teen parents and stuff like that and like catering to their needs and catering to like specific people's needs and like I think that there should be more In college, I think there should be more programs with like a like a group of students held like by a Like an adult or something and like helping them support systems and things like that. I think that was beneficial Like some of the cohort models we've seen like the posse scholarship and other things that bring students together I think we have a question over here Hi Hi, my name is molly bell I'm currently working towards my masters in public policy in dublin, ireland So long way away from where I am right now I was wondering each of the panelists thoughts on Whether we should be adapting to these more non-traditional student lifestyles And Moving away from the pressure of high school four-year degree get a job advanced degree My brother personally is going to be a non-traditional student and got work experience in a field and was able To learn more about what he wanted to do I think that's just an invaluable experience that we've heard some about on the panel. So kind of what's your thoughts on moving towards a non-traditional model of support for different types of learning I don't think um I don't think take the pressure away from the traditional students I just think why can't we have both? Why can't why can't all these populations benefit? Um, you know non-traditional and traditional students as well Yeah, I think I agree with aerial It should be both like I'm a good example of non-traditional student where I didn't go to college and find a job I'm I'm working and I'm going to school at the same time At the I'm going to school for a career that I'm already doing so I think I think it's benefiting me a lot I think that the America started to be more diverse. So why don't we cater to that? I think what's what I think is interesting something in some of these responses as well is that I think there there is this conception that um that somehow Taking care of non-traditional students will will end up in this deficit model And I think what I've seen really some good examples of also what's happening I think universities that are doing this really well You know, both whether you're at a community college, whether you're at a four-year or your private A state school I think about folks like Dan Porterfield the president of frank and marshal who I think is really one of the more forward thinking College presence in this capacity And when he's changing support networks and you know increasing the percentage of pale eligible kids that are at a You know campus like that. It's not because it's it's not sort of charity It's actually increasing the the strength of that community And I think that colleges that do this well that serve their community well I think it's also not just that we ought to do it But actually that it's going to increase the vibrancy of that community and make for more, you know Students who meet people who are different than them communities that create stronger linkages among themselves And I think has a lot of potasas benefits I think we have a question over here Hi, good morning. I'm Leticia Bustillo's with the campaign for college opportunity I wanted to continue with the thread on support services and ruth your comment about your mentorship Was really striking about you were able just to pick up the phone call up Rachel and ask her a question And so I'm curious to know was this your mentor the mentor that you have is that because of a sponsored College program that you were a part of or is it something that you intuitively knew that you needed to seek out because There's a lot of students that I don't think would naturally think about Oh, I should go find a mentor How do I do that and don't really have the steps to to go about and do it? So I'm curious how you did that So it was through a I think it's a non-profit organization is called capital programs for education So what the program does is that it pairs high school students to potential like Mentors and they just pair them up Yeah, and so if I can add to that the scholarship program that I'm in is catered to teen parents College completion And they pretty much kind of do the same thing they provide a financial assistance A community college level 1200 dollars a year on top of their Pell grant At the university level for your college is 2400 a year doubles up when you transfer over But they also I think that's a good piece But the most important piece is the mentorship process that they have because they pair you with a mentor as well That's going to be able to I mean they obviously understand your situation and that's it's a non-profit as well And so they're self-funded and they just they just run off of um sponsorships And also of my college. I also have a mentor Lisa moody and I I think that like having a mentor is very crucial to having to succeeding in life Your pro mentorships Third question over here Hi, I'm lindy tpi work here at new america and I just had a question I'm hearing you guys talk about your experiences is awesome And I'm wondering ariel you also talked about raising your two kids and have you started thinking about what higher ed might look like for them? and I guess revisiting your question about the Recent onslaught of articles around like is higher ed for everyone For your kids. Are you thinking? Yes higher ed is for my kids or better be It better be because I know I mean it's one of those Cliche if I can do it you could I know I know if I can do it. I know anybody can do it um I really I did not see college in my future even at the high school level. It was like pie in the sky My mother would always say she's an um She migrated from El Salvador in the late 80s because there was a civil war out there She came out here to give her future children an opportunity which she did And so I'm taking that to my advantage as as much as I can now and um Yeah, college is gonna definitely be for my children I have thought about how that's going to work out my wife And now we open up a virginia 529 for both of our children a few years back Well my son a few years back and my daughter recently because we know the cost of education is it's only getting higher and higher And it will be 15 20 years on the road when they're ready to go And so we do fund that monthly Um Hopefully not a teen parent like myself because they are there are supports um as well for that but um What was the second part of your question? Okay And I think I would like to tackle this question I think that uh, you can't be what you can't see And I think that having role models in place I think that really helps an individual see that they can also do what they're looking at an act Especially like in terms of like race having more black doctors. I think that that would be Like me looking at that would pursue like would motivate me and say that I can do it also Other questions out there This is for Ariel because you mentioned that you struggled in high school and your first year in college And so I'm wondering if you or your spouse had to go into developmental classes the kind of classes where You have to pay money. You have to take time, but you don't get credits And what was that experience for you and did it dissuade you from moving on in 2016 the entire year Spring semester summer semester and the fall semester. I spent time in math development class It was called I think in my community college MTT and so basically you complete units to get to the College level math class that you need and so without discourage. I was thinking of changing my major I don't know how many times to avoid taking math because it is my probably number one or number two fear Aside from public speaking You've conquered them both Exactly. So you have to get out your comfort zone, right? But for that entire year I struggled through it I didn't think I was gonna get through it. Um, I thought about Dropping out a couple of times because math is just that it was just that hard for me And I was oftentimes discouraged. I'm glad I can say now just anybody can say I'm glad I didn't give up and uh, it was a it was a dreadful year, but I managed to conquer at the end of the year was 2016 was when my wife was pregnant as well with our second child our daughter And so my final semester was the spring of 2017, which I think I took a full-time course And I was looking about 30 hours a week and uh, you know, man I still remember coming into the into my 6 30 in the morning pre-calculus class because my first Yeah, I was finally at college level math now in 2017 that first semester And my daughter was born the day before and I was in there with the hospital wristband taking my first exam Just wondering like what is this about like? But it was um, you know long story short, I went through it and I'm glad I did Any any final questions for the panel? Oh, we got another kid Hi, good morning. Willem Gill with the registrars and admissions officers. Um My question has to we as we mentioned earlier before We have more non-traditional students now that we have traditional students I know when I was going to I'm also first generation when I was going to college, you know College was kind of seen as the right of passage growing up um Kind of talk to more of you guys Um with this non-traditional Increased non-traditional. Do you guys see your age group kind of looking at college in like Gotta get through it. Gotta get it work. You gotta start life living life You went through an apprenticeship You didn't see necessarily the value of the four-year degree kind of just talk about how you and your Mates kind of think of college right now I think I I see a lot of benefit in four-year college because in august this fall I'm starting a university to continue on my two-year degree to get my bachelor's and and um Like like we said before my friends they struggled like with the apprenticeship program I'm just going to keep on saying that there should be more apprenticeship programs That there there's a value in going to just four-year college without doing the apprenticeship, but once again we Getting your hands on experience. I think that's important What are you guys's experience? What are your friends saying? Can you repeat the question again? Sorry I think it's a pretty even divide. I think myself I know a lot of students like myself They want to get it out the way knock it out and hurry up and be employed given their situations But I know a lot of other a lot of my other friends that they don't see the value in it at all They feel that college leaves them ill prepared They feel that they'll get a degree They'll be in a ton of student debt and not have a job for several months or maybe even a few years and so they Probably don't want to deal with it when they're you know working a job now. That's probably making them good enough money I think a lot of times people pick a specific Major or minor sports for like to get a specific job and not like maybe if they're really interested in like Arts or something like that and they really want to major in art But they feel like they can't do that because there won't be any jobs in place I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with I think we have time for one more question anyone out there And you'll be our last question Hi, um My name is linds. I'm revealing. I'm here with the association of governing boards of universities and colleges And you've talked a little bit about this But one of the responses to one of the questions was an individual should pay for their education because it's a personal benefit So i'm curious how you see your personal Educational experience benefiting others. How how do you see it as a public benefit benefiting your communities your families? So i'm curious about that Well, um, well currently I think um, I guess how it can benefit Just earning my associate's degree gave me enough earning power To be able to move out on my own even though it's a tax income property program But we're it's an upward trajectory. It's just going up. Um, and so our Current circumstance our standard of living has improved just yesterday Anybody go grocery shopping on sundays? Okay So just yesterday was a second time that my my wife and I purchased groceries off of supplemental nutrition assistance program So it's a it's a really big deal for us to be able to do that on our own um, and for a lot of the families as well and so I'm currently right now, um, I work with northern virginia community college my college that I graduated from And I work part-time with the virginia department of health as a fatherhood facilitator So i'm giving back I feel in the best way I possibly could because i'm a i'm a professional at being a young parent I'm a professional at navigating the system. I'm a professional going to school and trying to make something out of nothing And that's how i'm giving back to these young parents because the program is actually 16 to 24 year olds Expecting our young parents. And so that's how i'm contributing. I feel I think um If the if the first two years of college be covered under government I think that's a very good start for people that can't afford to go to college and one of the things I think it's just like it's like a get you started And i'm guessing once you get your two years you can easily find a good job Good paying job where you could continue your education And I think that would be beneficial for you and in your community and and just income general um, I have a little sister and so um, I think she's She's about to be a senior next this upcoming year And I think that me going to college is really going to motivate her to like pursue college too All right, so I think you've heard from this incredible panel with some incredible insights. Thank you guys So next I want to welcome Tamara from the third way education who's going to be helping moderate our next panel Hey, come on up. Where's joe? Yeah, I hope not All right. Well, good morning. Um, that is a very tough panel to follow Because I think that was really really inspiring And hopefully will shape a lot of the conversation that we are having today as we start to think about some of the policy implications for what we've seen in the poll and also what we just heard so For those of you who don't know me. My name is Tamara Heiler and I'm the deputy director of education at third way Which is a centrist think tank here in DC And I think as we've already heard multiple times today, but anyone who's been following the high red policy conversation over the last year and a half We know this this question of is college worth it has been on the table over and over and over again And I think so often a lot of times the conversation is you know We're hearing a lot of opining about this question from members of congress and their staffers Or from people in the press or from other policy analysts that think tanks But it's not often enough that we're able to really step back and sort of Ask real americans and real students what they're thinking and we've already heard a lot of value From that student panel answering that question But I think that's really important for why we should have this conversation today And so to help us cut through some of the numbers that we've seen and and help us make connections To a policy perspective excited to moderate this conversation with an esteemed panel So down at the far end here. We have new america's own rachel fishman who amy Was so kind to say is one of the authors lead authors of the varying degrees report and is the deputy director for research here at new america We also next to rachel We have joe garcia who is currently the president of the western interstate commission for higher ed also known as witchy And is about to Is about to become Start as the president of the community college system in colorado and was Formerly served as the lieutenant governor of colorado and director of the colorado department of education And then next to joe we have jihang li who is currently the vice president for public policy and external relations at the association of community college trustees So with that, uh, i'm going to start the first question here Thinking about your own perspective as policy experts, whether that's on the ground in community colleges or in the states or from a 20,000 foot federal view What one to two findings that you saw in the report or you heard today Has surprised you the most and based on that, how does this change your own thinking and the work that you do? So rachel you want to start sure? So i think and i know we're going to go over a lot of the democrat republican findings But i think um as somebody who this is the second year that we've done this work in the first year we asked the question about Is higher education a good for society or is higher education more of a personal benefit? In a totally different way last year. So we just kind of asked in a very general altruistic Is this good for society? Is it a public good or is this an individual good? This year we really wanted to make people to realize what we were asking was how should it be funded? So last year we left the panel and i said well people think it's a it's a public benefit And so it should be funded this way And then we decided to make that part of the question So we really put it on the on the line and asked people About spending taxpayer dollars should the government spend tax paid dollars because this is good for society Or should people front the money themselves because this is a personal benefit and we saw more people Believe that it is a it is good for society and so the government should fund it that way And then we did see some interesting splits, which i'm sure we're going to get into on the panel today That republicans feel a little bit different about this where in the majority they feel that It's a it's a more of a personal benefit But i think it is an improvement on the question last year and really Allows us to grapple with how people are viewing higher education and where the funding should come from I was most surprised that people were as Positive about higher education generally as they were. I mean what we've been hearing From some of our political leaders from the media is that higher education can't be trusted and it's not all that valuable I was In prepping looking for an article. I had read just a week or so ago That was entitled something like why college doesn't matter anymore And so I punched that into my search engine and I not only found that article I found dozens of articles that said exactly that same thing or I posed that same question and suggested Suggest that college doesn't matter or that It's not worth the cost and despite that despite hearing that Over and over from the media the response to this post said yeah, it does matter It may not be perfect. We need to change it But republicans and democrats conservatives liberals young and old all agree higher education matters And it's something that we ought to be investing in For me, you know, I've been intimately involved in this data because I started on the on the advisory board for this project One of the things that was interesting to me at when you take a step back is take a look at the question about Is it easier to find a well-paying job? vis-a-vis your parents And if you take a look only 29 of americans say that it's easier to find a well-paying job compared to their parents And then you also then take a look at for an example the work life balance issue Which is also a secondary question as part of that grouping You see it's like 23 Say it will be easier for them than for the versus their parents And to me it's a as we think about higher education We also have to take a step back and realize that we need to create an economy of scale We need to create a functional system Where people can get well-paying jobs, but also have this structure where You're not tethered to your phone 24-7 and I think those those are some long-standing things as we work on our Economy going forward as we implement more technology into our society And into our jobs that we really do need to kind of think Holistically about like when do you turn off your cell phone? Do you sleep with your cell phone next to your head? Uh, you know, those are things that you know, we really as a society Need to have a kind of a conversation about So since rachel since you already alluded to this i'm going to skip ahead to this question Because we saw that there were some very clear distinctions here between republicans and democrats and in fact We've heard a lot about this not just from this poll But also a q poll that you mentioned at the beginning of your report That cites that over half of republicans about 58 believe higher education is actually having a negative impact On the way things are going in this country compared to only 19 percent of democrats But Based on these results and some of the conversations we're having Do you think republicans are actually souring on higher education? And where do you think this poll and some of these other conversations are showing both the most and least agreement between political parties? That we as policy folks here in dc and back in the states Can sort of help break through that noise Yeah, so I think the I think going back to The first question that I talked about the personal benefit versus good for society It is clear that there is a divergence like this is one of the findings where you see you shift down on the data tool You look at differences by party id and then you see this divergence emerge Where republicans are more likely to say that they believe that it is a personal benefit And democrats are more likely to say it is a good for society Um, and this is just a stark difference. Uh when illustrated It's I think what is feeding into this difference If you look at the if you look at the questions about availability of jobs and whether or not there are jobs available for People with uh, whether well paying jobs require college or whether well paying jobs require education after high school Regardless of how we asked it Republicans were more likely to agree There were lots of well paying jobs without any education beyond high school Whether it be college or some sort of education beyond high school So I don't know if that's perhaps what is feeding into this idea of well There are lots of well paying jobs and since there are lots of well paying jobs People should fund this because it's a personal benefit So i'm not sure like what the tie is exactly there But I think importantly where the nuance for Our team and maybe for g hang who was on our advisory board started to emerge Was that um and even in the directions of the way that we asked the questions I mean the questions. I just mentioned we asked first and then afterwards we asked In the survey what people's comfort level was with spending their own taxpayer dollars on On higher education and republicans and democrats both agreed in the majority that they were comfortable with spending Taxpayer dollars on higher education now importantly again, there is a huge spread between democrats and republicans So democrats were at about 80 percent republicans were about at 60 percent But that is in the majority importantly for republicans that they have this comfort level spending their Tax dollars on higher education now when we asked even further If the federal government should spend tax dollars on higher education and if state government should spend tax dollars on higher education I mean we saw a wide agreement again. No surprise among democrats especially for for um for democrats They were like especially Happy to have the federal government spend taxpayer dollars on higher education Which I think makes a lot of sense given how that party feels about the federal government and then when you look at republicans They were In the majority for state government spending taxes on higher education somewhere in the I think upper 50s And then a little bit at the margin of error in terms of How they felt about the federal government spending taxpayer dollars But again, I think you see a more nuanced story starting to emerge that Perhaps there's more going on than Republicans just being sour on higher education. Are they really so sour that they are Still okay with their tax dollars going to pay for higher education. I think there's just more to this story than is being told in the news Well, my sense is that republicans are kind of sour on everything Anything that's publicly funded But it was encouraging that they still saw a reason to invest in higher education I think though that what has changed is we have seen Changing complexion of our institutions that is we see a lot more people of color A lot more first generation a lot more immigrants on our college campuses And that has tracked with a bit of the sense that we shouldn't be investing as much And I do worry that sometimes People who are in power worry that to the extent we open the doors to institutions to other people from different backgrounds They may be giving something up. That is that they view this as sort of a scarcity mentality And if those kids are getting in my kid might not and so I think there really is some resistance To providing more support more funding especially for People of color and I think that also leads to more Where we try to deflect we see the increase in segregation in higher education That we see reflected in k through 12 that we see A low income of people of color being pointed mainly to community colleges or access institutions not so many at the Not-for-profit private elite institutions where we see or even the flagship universities We just see increasing Or sort of disproportionately white people go in one place and minority people go in some place else And I think one of the biggest challenges we face in higher education right now Yeah, I would agree with some of the data points that uh, rachel just announced You know, there is strong support. It's just the varying degree of how strong of the support it is And you know what you'll see is like for an example I represent governing boards of community colleges and if you go throughout the country, we have elected boards We have appointed boards. We have one state board in colorado on a couple elected boards in colorado, but What you see from our republican trustees who go advocate at the state capitol come to washington dc And advocate they all strongly support increased funding for students and for their institutions And you really do see it And I think this is one of the problems when we talk about higher education It's like you saw the poll numbers for like apprenticeship for example Apprenticeship is typically tied to higher education. So its support is 90 percent But and then you also see for like community colleges was 81 percent Um, and then when you start meshing higher education globally sometimes the concept of higher education kind of gets lost in What you perceive it? So one of the things that I was we we had a A speaker at one of our legislative summits a year a couple years back and we we talked a little bit He was talking a little bit about higher education And he was talking about the disdain for higher education and one of that one of the one of the within the republican party and he actually mentioned the fact that Rutgers university invited condoleezza rice to be a keynote speaker at this forum and Uh, ultimately there was student uproar about inviting her and then she stepped out or you know the long story short This became a huge news story that appeared on fox news for multiple days and This strategist was essentially saying like this is what Typical americans, you know gravitate towards When they think about higher education, which was interesting to me As brings to be like your personal experience on the campus. Uh, your children's experience your Your co-workers experience that this kind of news story feeds into the You know, I guess the little liberal monster that is higher education But to me that was just kind of an interesting segue into kind of how people perceive higher education You know at least a segment of our population perceives higher education And so I just leave it at that. It's like this is one way we can Kind of continue to educate the population about you know, the work that we do Uh, and the issues that we deal with on a constant basis So just a quick follow-up then do you guys think this is more of Potentially a messaging issue and that there are certain ways to talk about this that can cut through party lines more so than Actual policy in-depth policy discussions or do you think it's both? I think it's a messaging issue very much so because When we talk about apprenticeships people are really thinking about work The thing about preparing people for the workforce And they support that everybody supports that and when they talk about community colleges They think about it as workforce prep and they support that even if they don't want their own kids going to community colleges They want somebody going there And when this poll showed that while people May be a little bit skeptical about higher education. They trust their local institution So really it's it's You know as a former politician, you know when we would tell any story We always talk about putting a face on it. We didn't just talk about healthcare We talked about oh, I was talking to mary smith and she told me about her experience With the health care so we'll put a face on it. So when we talk about higher education We shouldn't talk about it in the abstract. We should talk about at our local college This is a challenge they face that could be Alleviated with more public funding and people can get behind that. So I think it is how we message in how we talk about An institution that people are familiar with versus this vast kind of nameless faceless higher education universe Yeah, and we saw from our own data that when we phrased the question differently about The availability of jobs after high school when it was either college or Education after high school that people Like education after high school in the sense that they believe that you need something after high school But that something might not need to be College and so I think and I do this all the time and I work in this space and I know all the lingo I mean, I even know what tertiary means even though we don't talk about our system as a tertiary education system But I know what post-secondary means and sometimes I'm like maybe post-secondary is really You know the right answer It's all these experiences after secondary school, but post-secondary does not resonate with the general public either Education after high school does But the problem with that is that this gets very wordy to constantly be talking about education after high school So how do we paint a picture of the robustness of our higher education? system which I think is Makes the american system one of the best higher education systems in the world isn't because we have like quote-unquote the best Institutions in terms of having harvard and stanford and all of that. Yes, they're great. They also have billions of dollars I think actually what makes american system of higher education So great are those local colleges and universities and those open access points and the plethora of options that we have that Students can use to access higher education to fall in and out of the pipeline It sometimes makes it harder to make sure that Students attain their credentials, but I do think that it's one of the unique factors that makes our higher education system great It also makes it very difficult to talk about Yeah, I think you know the way that we kind of describe it in my group of you know My team is that we continue to say that No matter what happens no matter whether or not you get a credential you get a degree You have to continue to do lifelong learning And you take a look at one of the systems that we that's in the in the report it talks about a little bit about north carolina And north carolina for an example in the last 30 years or so has gone through seismic changes It's an economy The lumber industry the furniture making industry the tobacco industry textile industries You know all those fluctuations in that state have resulted in what? Community colleges stepping up to the plate and supporting different efforts to put educational material educational content in front of people to change jobs And it really does go back to this broader conversation is like People need to be prepared to be educated for other jobs You know one you're not going to work in a gm plant for 40 years and retire with a pension That really isn't the way our economy is structured anymore. And so that means that we do need to do We have to upskill we have to transition there has to be better alignment within higher education the workforce So I do think we need to just kind of have to have that conversation about The requirement for you as a citizen of this country is that we need you to be open to the idea that you have to have continuous education as you're Throughout your life. And you know that means going from Associates degree to a bachelor's degree to a master's degree. Maybe even a professional post back But that conversation I do think needs to be filtered Broadly I would agree with g that we say we want people to be more open to that notion of Lifelong learning and yet we need our institutions to be more open to those people and provide The kind of support systems that are talked about which is there's got to be transportation issues covered daycare issues covered We can't just assume that if people have the right mindset that the system will work for them It too often does not it works for those students who are traditional students So since this leads into this and you already alluded to this number That the poll found is what I'll call I like to call it the congress effect where it's you know people Overwhelmingly dislike congress, but then continue to vote for their own member of congress over and over and over again And it's very clear from this data that it looks like something similar is happening in higher education When it comes to overwhelmingly people thinking that the system needs to change that it's broken But then they're being overwhelming support or having a positive view for institutions that are near them in their own backyards So I'd like for you guys to dig a little bit deeper into why do you think this is happening? And how do you think this tension either helps or hurts our ability? To advocate for the types of changes that you were just describing where we'd like to see improvements That could lead to better student outcomes Yeah, so I think that The genesis of this question speaking as somebody who put together the survey questionnaires over the summer We saw these data coming from pew and gallup that just showed this overall republican souring on higher education Now I We at the same time had a couple of focus groups in preparation to do this work With some students some parents To to figure out what was going on with the higher education institutions located in their in their areas And so we talked to students and parents in denver, colorado And then we also talked to students and parents in charlotte, north carolina And from those focus groups, you know, we would start to we started the conversation very broadly about higher education college degrees how people think their college institutions are serving that are serving the nation and People had all sorts of issues that they were bringing up with college overall of higher education as an institution And a lot of it had to do with affordability And sometimes, you know, people were saying that I think in denver specific like there's free speech issues because I mean again These were these were not nationally representative focus groups focus groups cannot be that But we did try to recruit a diverse set of of students and parents So we had all sorts of political views ages, etc and so Then we later on switched the conversation to like, what do you think about the institutions in your area? Like you chose the college that you're attending, but what do you think about the other colleges? That are in denver besides like metro state where you're attending and everybody Overwhelmingly was always like they're great. That's great. Like college is great here. We have lots of Opportunities we have lots of institutions the institutions of the big word we kept hearing was the institutions are diverse There are a lot of access points if you can't afford Like the the private university of denver you could end up going to metro state We love metro state metro state is great. You could go to a community college, etc And we heard the same thing when we were in charlotte as well Which made me think like well, maybe it's that republicans are souring on this idea of the institution of higher education as we're talking about lots of souring on institutions overall from unions to religious organizations to To the media, I mean there's just a lot of polarization going on right now with Certain institutions and for that reason we added this question this year about local institutions Because my idea here is if you extrapolate up And if the if people are in wide agreement that they like their local colleges and universities Is there really a problem? What is going on? And so I think it is revealing that people have a problem with sort of the ivory tower Which is very different from their local colleges and universities of which they feel a lot better about I don't know what this necessarily means it gets back to this whole idea that we might have a messaging problem and how we talk about higher education policy and funding and and Talking about elite institutions versus the institutions that most students attend which are not these elite institutions And and what that means for for the conversation involving The reauthorization of the higher education act and also a lot of the funding issues happening on the state level No, for reasons that aren't entirely clear to me. We do have Well conservative media really is trying to make higher education Kind of a whipping boy. They're saying you can't trust them. We ought to beat up on them And in fact, they encourage students to secretly tape record their professors to report anything that sounds like a liberal bias Then they can put on the news and talk about see what your professors are trying to do to you They're trying to turn you into You know a liberal and they're shutting down conservative groups and conservative students at the same time that we've seen Really a growth in republican student organizations conservative groups on campuses This sort of assault that doesn't exist in real life But they're telling us we ought to be afraid of of higher education and especially the educators themselves because of what they're doing And I think it's again trying to turn higher education Into the enemy when at the same time they'll say it's necessary in order to build a competitive economy I equate the data point on this to be that We all support our local institutions my local institutions northern virginia community college, uh, you know, we have We have george mason university, which is our The public four-year in my region And the work that they're doing to help our students is phenomenal But if you take a step back What do you see on a daily basis? in the new york times Washington posts box news Uh, abc mdc cbs You see articles about students with a hundred thousand dollars with a debt You see students and incessant conversations about the complete outliers within our higher education system Who basically are struggling with this enormous amount of debt? And you see that kind of intermixed in our data about like college costs continues to be a significant issue And we spend a lot of bandwidth. We spend a lot of time, uh, you know In this organization and other organizations talking about student debt But the reality of student debt is that you know, our students aren't borrowing that much number one And the people who have the hundred thousand two hundred thousand dollars in student debt Are post-bac students they have lawyers doctors Students that in theory if they had that amount of debt Would have a have a lifestyle and it would also have an income that would match that And I think that pervades the broader conversation about the system globally within higher education And I think it is something that is of significant concern because it is eroding public support of higher education because they They really do kind of hear that and that, you know, the new york times article for an example was talking about How student, you know, this the the way that student debt aligns with low-income families is of serious concern When in reality for for many families the only way up the Through social mobility is through higher education and I think those are some broader questions that we we as advocates of institutions Advocates advocates of students really need to have a whole harder conversation about is that We we need to kind of be vigilant on saying This story that you're you're writing about affects, you know, 0.1 percent of the student body. Can we talk about The the team parents. Can we talk about independent students? Can we talk about foster students? You know, can we talk about first gen students? These are the efforts that we really as a society should be making some inroads on as opposed to the Significant outlier issue that is putting a lot of pressure on our system because the casts, you know Cast negative attention towards our system of higher education I I think even to add on to that a story that I recently saw in I believe the washington post um Was shedding light on what I believe is a very important issue in higher education Which is food insecurity and trying to access snap benefits Which are very hard to access if you're a full-time student because of the way That you need to access snap benefits. They usually need to work and so Sarah galtrick rob has done a lot of Great research in this area and she had a survey come out that showed that there's quite a bit of food insecurity happening on america's college campuses And the washington post story reported on it, which I think is great because this is a really important issue However, the student situation they used which is a real student situation So I don't want to say like anything about that student, but they use students from george washington university Which are which is a very expensive institution So these students were having serious problems being able to afford Food but at the same time if you look at the comments of this article a lot of it Was blamed the student for choosing a really expensive institution to attend when it this was not about the student This is not the students fault that they were covered or that the washington post chose to cover george washington university But we have udc cc and udc You could have followed up by looking at more non-traditional students and what they or nova Community college to tell that story instead of choosing one of the most expensive institutions in the nation to tell that story Which is only going to get readers Wondering why that student even decided to go to that college in the first place when they could have gone to another college and arguably I think Students at community college is it seems probably face even more food insecurity And so again, it's like even in the storytelling even when we're telling the right story We're using the wrong cast of characters sometimes and that's really important So many of the stories we tell about About higher ed we focus on those elite institutions as if that's where 90 of the students go instead of where that's 5 or 10 percent go or less And we really focus on the cost there the debt load there And that really has very little to do with the reality of most folks now the debt issue Is certainly something we've read a lot about over the last over years because the total amount of student debt has gone up At the same time the total number of students enrolling has gone up and the real Issue is those students who at the started school but never finish They are defaulting with eight or nine thousand dollars worth of debt not a hundred thousand and that's where the real challenge isn't so they Focus for institutions should be how do we support students so that they leave better off? Because they have a credential and can increase during the power Rather make them worse off because they've come for a year or two and taken on debt and have nothing to show for it Yep, very agree very strongly with all of those comments So I do think perhaps one benefit from this poll then or one thing that was encouraging to see was that despite all of the media covering Elite colleges. We did see a lot of positive feedback For both community colleges and apprenticeships in this poll and so Why why do you think that is number one? And I think this is interesting especially as we've already talked about we see Most people saying that for their own child they would want them to go get a bachelor's degree or to go to a four-year school Yet we're seeing a lot of public support for these non-traditional pathways like apprenticeships or a two-year pathway like community college I almost want to I think it is interesting that there's great support for community colleges and for apprenticeships But again, it's often for somebody else's kid And it's because we often look at again that those elite institutions That upper middle class white parents want their kids to go to and it's a sort of a pushback Against everything from affirmative action anything that opens access again. They worry creates more competition And so a lot of what we see in high education is an effort to preserve What's ours? Is the way some people look at it and that is we we think For our upper middle class kids that going to college is more than just about getting job training But for everybody else, it's really about job training What we've talked about here today has mainly been about workforce preparation But that's not all that higher education is supposed to be about It's supposed about creating better citizens more engaged citizens people have the opportunity to learn and grow And yet for first generation for working class for people of color It's we want them to be able to get a job because we think otherwise they'll be on welfare and costing this money Yeah, this is one data point that I'd be Inter-fascinated to see in like five to ten years of time and the reason why is that if you think about your local community college You think about for an example an associate's degree program. You think about a certificate program You think possibly, you know some workforce based But what I could tell you today is that our community colleges are during early high school They're doing early college Where you spend your time on high school campus for a couple of years And you do one year out of community college and you graduate with an associate's degree after one year We are, you know, obviously leading transfer institutions We're doing adult basic ed. We do career and technical education All these buckets essentially means a different reference point for For people who are taking this poll And you know, I I will I will be a strong advocate for my local community college, but for an example Nova just entered a new relationship with george mason university, which is essentially A four-year program you do two years at nova you transfer to george mason You actually are considered you get a student ID of george mason Your first two years you're allowed to step onto campus you you have rights And it really is an interesting model that's in place For nova and for george mason Because obviously nova is already a huge driver for students there But I think this is one area where I think if you're entrepreneurial about Serving students And that's your key role as an institution is to serve students You ultimately meet your student where they are and help them proceed And that could be a high school student that could be a homeless mom and son You know a bower college. We just had a mother and son graduate from our institution down there They were homeless They were able to succeed and graduate And ultimately at the end of the day, this is why I'm interested in this kind of data set because like as we interface more Throughout the educational pipeline will we see our numbers go up or down? And that will be fascinating for me I think that's really important too because there's so much Economic competition because of the business model for higher ed. We're competing for tuition dollars You know g pointed out that you know, we have to meet students where they are for in a community college That means we have to be able to provide them with support that support costs money And yet we've got a funding structure for a higher education that really Needs to be flipped on its head because we are trying to serve the neediest students Financially needy academically needy We're trying to serve them serve them with the fewest dollars per Per student and the more elite institutions that are educating students who are very well prepared and have Infinite amounts of support at home. They have even more money You know, that's like again sending our healthiest patients You know to the best equipped hospitals and the best doctors and our sickest patients to the worst hospitals and the worst doctors It just doesn't make sense So we've talked a little bit about the differences that we saw between Republicans and Democrats in the poll and Eric alluded to Earlier on the panel that there were also some clear generational gaps in the findings between what millennials and generations years see as working in higher education compared to Baby boomers and those from the silent generation. So Rachel, can you talk about what some of those differences are? and then also Curious how how does this affect policymaking given that most members of congress are I'll say this nicely on the older end of the spectrum. So how does that affect? What we're seeing if there are different perceptions So I think I think one of the interesting findings that it's carry over from last year Is that when you have this stark finding that only one in four think higher education is fine the way it is When you break this out by generation the numbers Um, definitely for millennials go way down to like one in ten Think higher education is fine the way it is generation z which Think right now for our polls purposes are the ages 18 to 23 really So they're the ones who are who either entered the workforce right away after college But many of them are either current college students or have some experience with college They feel like slightly more positive about higher education than their millennial like slightly older Counterpart so like I'm like the upper end of the millennial generation, but millennials are like 24 to almost 40 at this point And so I think part of that is just the economy that millennials entered into so I graduated from college in 2007 And then by 2008 when I had I took it like almost like a gap year where I worked abroad, which was very great But whatever But when I came back and I secured a job in the american workforce It was the summer before the stock market crashed and so my first experience in In in the workforce was Seeing lots of my colleagues laid off and wondering if I was going to have a job Next the next day the next week And I remember every friday when like layoffs would go out just sweating it and thinking I have to get out of here I have to go to grad school or something And so I I totally understand where that sentiment is coming from millennial And I think as the economy has started to improve we see that generation Z maybe feels like a little bit more positively though Nobody feels like super positive that higher education is fine the way it is for generation z and millennials A lot of it has to do with affordability because they think a lot of millennials Were caught flat footed in terms of taking on debt to get degrees And if they were able to attain their degree entering a sour job market That really has implications for them repaying that debt For generation z they're coming out the tail end They've heard a lot about the economy a lot about how higher education is important and necessary But that they and that they need it for jobs, but that debt is bad debt is really really bad That's what we've told people over and over again. And so I feel like they're very debt reticent And so that's why they're hoping for for more affordability When we talk about taxpayer funding Tamara's absolutely right that generation z is like super pro spending their own taxpayer dollars On higher education which makes me laugh because they're unlikely to be contributing much of their taxpayer dollars And so it'll be interesting to see if like as they as they like get older If that continues to be the case or as they get further and further removed from Their connection with a higher education system if they start to feel like I want to protect my own taxpayer dollars Which we see a lot Which tends to happen a lot with um older generations in terms of funding k12 Education and for higher education But yeah, they're very into making higher education more affordable and that makes sense because they're The ones most likely to experience it at a high level right now Yeah, they're also paying a different share than people of my generation had to I mean people of my generation think well, I worked my way through college and I didn't have to take on a lot of debt Or get big grants, but people my age and older often again don't realize That the way we funded higher education is shifted and that proportionately students are caring much more of that load And that it's virtually impossible to work your way through school Even if you're working full time if you're working a minimum wage job You can't work your way through college and come out without debt And I think the the zeers and the millennials they that's that's their experience They know that and the older folks just haven't haven't recognized that Yeah, I would agree with that you especially if you take a look at the how it's structured you see a significant difference in how The millennials and the generation's these do believe in like for example and support for you know of tax dollars towards higher education You know and I also I also think it's you know striking to me just like for example the issues around costs Uh is still a significant issue. Um, I and you actually if you take a look at I think cost was also us It's an issue for a demographic of individuals with post baccalaureate degrees Um, so you obviously student loans as part of that group So like that that to me kind of means like you know tangentially that loans are also putting Are pressing That demographic of generation z or just the knowledge that they're going to have student loans that you know, they're they're Increasing their awareness around this issue I think another finding that was interesting about and different about the generations Was we asked a forced choice question similar to is higher education Good for society or is higher education of personal benefit We also asked one about what's more important the experiences you're having inside the classroom when you go to higher education Or the experiences you have outside of the classroom and high while enrolled in higher education and a lot of the younger generations Said that what's really important are those experiences you start having outside of the classroom things like internships What whatever work that you're doing Different clubs that you're a part of so I think that as people As as the younger generations are seeing like okay, you need to go to higher education to have opportunity They also see that the import one of the important components of higher education is actually Those experiences that you receive outside of the classroom that are going to help you Land that job. What I think is interesting when you ask people Like by educational attainment when you look at that demographic Split by educational attainment again like people with people who are current students people who are college students They think the experiences outside the classroom are very important Um, but the people who had post Post baccalaureate degrees actually said it's both at like a really high rate Significantly different because you actually had to like volunteer that it was both So I mean and I would have said the same thing if someone called me up and they were like What is it inside the classroom or outside the classroom? I would have been like you can't choose It's both you have to like you have to build a good citizenry You have to take all these depths and breadth the requirements breadth the requirements are really important But we know that younger students Don't understand why these breadth requirements like for example when you're getting a bachelor's degree why you take 60 credits in literature In philosophy in different sciences why that's important because for them the ties Of that work and the work that they're doing outside the classroom. I think aren't as clear And so I think that's one way um higher education can do colleges and universities can maybe do a little bit better with students Of explaining Why taking this breadth of requirements is so important to becoming a critical thinker a good writer and all those skills That employers are looking for So I have one more question very quickly and then we'll turn it over to audience q&a If you're a member of congress and you're Looking at the findings here or listening to these panel discussions What's the one quick takeaway that you would want them to have? from this year's result Government should spend more taxpayer dollars on higher education to make it more affordable Affordable, but that shouldn't let higher education institutions off the hook. They should serve students better. They should be held accountable for that investment I'd agree that we want to see Higher education institutions continue to do well, but doing well means Not just enrolling students and doing financially well, but graduating students who are able then to Um, make the kind of economic progress they want to make So how do we hold institutions accountable to make sure that they are graduating students? With something of value Yes, I would say Listen to the student panel the student panel to me showcased why our federal policy system around higher education is just joined it Ariel who uh graduated from nova Counts as a non-completer For our north northern virginia community college because as a first time full-time rate audience nova will only get credit on the credential that ariel received but won't actually appear on his graduation rate um You know apprenticeship programs aren't really part of the vernacular of you know, how accountability system within our higher education system Uh, and I think if you take a step back We really do need to have a fundamental conversation about like how we do aid Uh, should 24 years old be the cutoff or starting point for independent students? Should we be really having a conversation about lowering that age? Uh, should we have a broader conversation about you know The homeless students Food insecurity You know aid systems that our short-term gap programs We really do need to have a broader conversation about how we can help students And this might not be just a federal conversation But it is definitely a state conversation and especially an local institution conversation We need to do better for students On that's providing them the full support that they need to ultimately graduate and get credentials Great. I hope they're listening. Um, all right. So based on that we'd love to turn it over to folks in the audience So my question or also kind of comments to g about the programs that nova in particular is doing Where I come from western new york our community college Does a lot of uh influence in high schools with college credit courses And they have a two plus two program which transfers almost anywhere and The partnership with the SUNY system in new york is incredible as well Do you think increasing those programs is Going to help be more adaptive to different students And is that something we should take into our higher Take into account in our higher education policy going forward I think you know, I bring up virginia and you know, there are myriad of the other examples like for example, california The uc system Just announced that they're going to be taking more community college graduates as part of their incoming classes I think when you We need to provide students and families with different options Especially options that are cheaper than they have today The reality is is that you can go to northern virginia community college and graduate and then transfer to uv and transfer to uva And it's significantly lower cost than you would if you just did four years at uva And I think you know cost is becoming a driver and you know, I think policy makers Should take that into consideration and really be pushing, you know institutions to have that conversation about how do we open pathways? you know, this is like how does a student at you know at And at aims community college, which is in really, colorado Do they have a relationship with you know, colorado university of boulder, you know, or csu I'm sure they have one at csu because they're right across the road but You know, we We want to help Like I mentioned we want to meet students where they are and help them progress through And I do think ultimately of the day if we really do want to strive to get individuals to Place where they have an advanced degree We should give them afford them that opportunity whether or not they stop at an associate's degree or if they continue on to a baccalaureate degree And I think making sure that the door doesn't Shut at the bachelor's degree path So I think there are lots of innovative programs and a big push to start your education In a community college And pursue your associate's degree and if you want to to transfer those credits and have them be fully articulated to Usually public four-year school locally and a lot of these partnerships work that way The problem is is that even though it is affordable for two years to attend the public two-year school You'll save some money that way the door could still be shut even if you wanted to transfer to a public four-year school afterwards and even if that's your intention because um A lot of times the aid is still not going to meet the difference when you enter even as an in-state student on a public Public four-year campus. Um, so we know that the Pell Grant covers tuition at most community colleges Is that right just tuition not all those other things? So I want to point that out But not the total cost of attendance not the total cost of attendance Which we know is actually very very important to success because you are one carburetor away from Having problems staying in school however That Pell Grant isn't even going to cover You know most of the cost of just tuition alone at a four-year college Public college and university and so I think that's where I start to get a bit worried about like the pathways are great that we're creating I think community colleges are a great place to start Or stop if you want just the associates degree But for those students who do want to go on and get the bachelor's degree We have to make sure that there is funding to continue that path that isn't just going to be reliant on a debt financed Model predominantly, which is what it feels like the system is turning into if you want that bachelor's degree I think we also have to be aware. I mean have a big support of community colleges But we have to be aware of the reality that rather than just the theory Of starting at a community college to save money in transferring because Many many students say they want to transfer to get their bachelor's degree when they start a community college Far too few actually do that unless we can create the same kind of culture of success and completion At a community college that we've created at the four-year residential campuses It's a mistake to tell people to go to a community college if they can get into a four-year We should tell them, you know, you're better off if you start there because it's more likely you're going to graduate That's what we've really got to address. Otherwise, we're sending people through an open door where there's not an open door on the other side They go in there. They use up their eligibility. They take on debt and they don't move on and we just got to be Honest about that Yeah, and I will give letty who's the osa shout out because she's in the audience again for her work from the Campaign for college opportunity. They did a big report out of california that showed exactly what you were saying that transfer students That started at a community college Only four percent had transferred within two years a quarter had transferred within four years And only 38 percent had ended up transferring to a four-year school within six years Despite their intention at the beginning of doing so so because they really Can you hear me? My name is katie seen. I'm from the association of american universities And my question is about cost. So as you said Costs of higher ed is much higher. Um now than it was for a baby boomer What are the fact? Well, did the survey get at this question of what is the public's perception of factors that contribute to the cost? Um, and then if not, do you all have views on what those factors are and policies that can Help make college more affordable We did not in the survey And we know that there are a lot of cost drivers on the public side Primarily its state disinvestment and sometimes states have their hands Tied dependent. I mean we've seen a lot under a lot of republican legislatures A lot of movement towards being Cutting taxes and then never being able ever again in colorado is a good example of this being able to ever raise tax revenue And I think like kansas, you know extrapolated out in 10 more years is going to be a complete disaster Because they just are moving to like no tax revenue And you're actually seeing a republican legislature in kansas pushing back And saying we actually do actually as it turns out need revenue in order to make the state work And so I think on the public side when I talk about how the public four-year Institutions have gotten really expensive and the the Pell Grant hasn't kept pace I mean we've seen increases faster than the rate of inflation Across the board, but especially in that public four-year sector I think what's interesting is that we've also had some data that came out of new america that showed that a lot of four-year institutions Raised their tuition rates above and beyond The decreases from state support. So there's a question of Almost what ruth said with some of these in the previous panel. Where are you? What's going on with the money? Like where's this money going? What are you spending it on? Why like like we understand the state disinvestment thing But why did tuition go up? More than that is the question. What are we getting? So I think there's a lot of scrutiny There's also I mean things that people don't talk about when they talk about the rising cost of college Are things even just like technology The human personnel infrastructure in place Support services Those are all going to drive so on the private side Those are also going to be the things that are driving cost up. I mean even things like electricity Oil all of those things that we if that are not like sexy ways to have a conversation about like what's going on with higher education funding But relate to the cost of college, but on the public side it is primarily that state disinvestment That we're seeing the higher tuition rates That is part of it, but the other parts are that as Institutions take on more low-income students. They know they need to provide more institutional aid So they come up with a model of high tuition high aid It really hasn't resulted in more low-income students getting to those institutions But when I've talked on a for on private Not for profit campuses and students ask me Why college is so expensive? I mean the fact of the matter is they want it to be they want things That cost money and it impacts low-income students But if you ask an average upper middle class family, where the kid's going to go to college It's not the college across the street In fact, they go on college tours and the kids visit lots of campuses and the things that stand out Are things that don't really impact their education But impact their experience and they want that experience And so those are costs then they get distributed across all students and it really makes The elite schools and even the state public flagships much more unaffordable For low-income students, but we have done that to ourselves Yeah When it's an interesting question that you ask that because it's like if you take a I know a number of like the flagship institutions will note that for example when we've had state disinvestment They've done a couple things they've raising tuition They've increased the the share of students coming from out of states They've increased their share of students coming from overseas as part to bolster up students Who are not receiving a subsidy from uh for state tuition? So what does that happen when you're when your institution becomes let's say 80 percent Californians coloradans to 60 percent 50 percent That also then drives tuition up more because your state legislators are going to give you less money because you're serving less students from your state And so uh, you see that one for an example with the uc system You see announced that they were going to take on more community college transfers They're going to take less more that we're going to take less fewer students excuse me From uh, you know from out of state otherwise Because this is something that legislators really do also need to push back on it's like we'll give you additional resources to serve more state students Uh, and I think that is a broader conversation that state legislators should have because like Ultimately at the end of the day institutions are entrepreneurial. They're gonna have to meet a but make a budget They have thousands of individuals that work on campus. They have uh, and you can't make your you can't balance a budget When you're getting pennies on the dollar and you know, you have to find resources elsewhere Let me just I misspoke when I say institutions are Competing for students. They're competing for the full pay students. That's who they really want especially the non-residents and University of colorado at boulder is a good example fewer than half of their freshman class are actually colorado. They've gotten uh Latitude from the legislature to accept up to 50 percent of their incoming class can be non-residents And then they recently got approved from the legislature to not count international students as non-residents So when you add in the the mess or the us non-resident and the international, you know Where they're taking in 60 percent from outside of colorado But you're saying we have to do that legislature because you haven't given us the money and we need it And so that's why CU has things like a buffalo shaped swimming pool. I'm not sure That's helping You know low income people get a better education, but or it's attracting somebody or increasing access One more question very quickly. So we'll go right here Thank you, um, this whole notion of re I call it resegregation On the college scene this thing about um A lot of white students from wealthy families are going to the elite schools Then you had the black folk and hispanic folk relegated to community colleges Or one of your schools and the question is how do we solve this situation? This resegregation One minute One minute Uh, you know, so I just had a paper come out last week that looked at the parent plus loan program in specific and The borrowing rates of white families for that loan versus black families and what income levels they're coming from And it's cleared that The parent plus program which was really designed to help send dependent students who are sort of upper middle class to college And therefore predominantly white is being utilized in a different way than black families In that a lot of black families are spending that have you know, zero expected family contributions Our low income are borrowing significant amounts of not only student loan debt, but parent loan debt We also know that there's a lot of data coming out That show that the outcomes of black Student loan borrowers of federal loans are not good even when you get a bachelor's degree So one in four still are going to default on their loans And so a lot of that is the institutions those students are attending but also they're entering into A labor environment that's discriminatory right and the types of institutions that they're able to even attend in the first place We're going to look very different than the access to institutions that white and wealthy or individuals have um, and so All this to say is I'm not So I think like the moving towards this debt financed model to having the only Most affordable option be only the two-year option is really the wrong direction for an increasingly diversifying student body We even have seen data as of last week that show that latino students are are which we already knew But we had data not approved that latinos are a growing share of undergraduates We have to make sure that we have an affordable and high quality by holding institutions accountable pathway for these students Um, and it needs to be funded more through subsidy Either directly to the student or directly through the institution instead of a debt financed model Which actually is just going to sort of carry over the problems that we're having in this segregated higher education system Where there are families that are more reliant on debt are entering Um, a labor market that looks very that whose outcomes look very different depending on the color of your skin Um, and then they're expected to pay this debt back Um, and that they have to go to higher education because um, they're gonna see return on investment I don't want the conversation coming out of this to be don't go to higher education My fear is that we're moving in that direction. Well, maybe we shouldn't be making loans Or maybe not everyone should be going to college Um, but that's just going to make the problem even worse It's just the solution looks differently and it looks more targeted. I think um, than what we're currently doing The elite institutions would say what are you talking about? We are more diverse We have both rich white students and rich black students, but they're not really Diverse in the way we would like them to be in tamarot an article in which you emphasize using federal dollars To both reward and penalize institutions that aren't Doing their fair share. So if there's a lead institutions, that's not Say a state flagship that's not serving truly a diverse population. You can withhold federal dollars and You know, that's what institutions listen to So with that, I think We're two minutes over Everybody's time. I know lunch is imminent for most of us. So, um, I want to give a round of applause. Thank you very much Thank you Any other completing remarks, so