 Now I'm just introducing Schuyler. Why am I introducing Schuyler? Because he's that fucking awesome. We've become really good friends over the past year or two, and it's really been a joy to watch him work on his projects and his things. And I think what's important, which he will not, of course, talk about, is that inherent in his spirit of what he does is not just to be really good at what he does, but spend every moment he's not being awesome, trying to share his awesome with everyone else as widely as possible. The fact that he sits with his skills and says, how can I spread these to people? Some people won't enjoy them, some people will be really good at them, but the point is to teach, because you never know where the next Schuyler is coming from, and there's something to be said for that. So ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, the rest of you, welcome to DEF CON 19 and the talk by Schuyler Town. Do it yourself. Non-destructive entry. So get yourself ready for the man we call Six Seconds Schuyler, the man who will unlock your house just before he unlocks your heart and changes your life forever, Schuyler Town. I only found out that I was getting an introduction about 20 minutes ago via Twitter. Thank you very much, Jason Scott, ladies and gentlemen. You'll be filling the Penn and Teller Theater later today. Okay, hey everybody, how are ya? Good, good, good, excellent. All right, so this is do-it-yourself, non-destructive entry. I am Schuyler Town, of course. I'm a competitive lockpicker, a physical security researcher, and I'm really easy to track down. Either SchuylerTown.com or at Shoebox on Twitter, or Schuyler Town on the internet. There aren't many of us. Okay, what we're going to cover today. One of the things in here we are not going to cover, it'll be a mystery, it'll be a surprise, what you don't see. We're gonna talk about how to open cars with popsicle sticks. We're gonna talk about how to open safes with palm sanders. We're gonna talk about how to open handcuffs with beer cans. We're gonna talk about how to open electronic safes with nine-volt batteries. We're gonna talk about how to open tubular locks with pens. I know, I know, you all know how to open tubular locks with pens, but I'm gonna tell you a lot more about why that works, and my hunt to find the man that caused the problem. We're gonna talk about how to open up sesame locks using the security tag off of your DVD case. And by discussing these things, we're going to talk about shimming attacks, spiking attacks, decoding attacks, self-impressioning attacks, overlifting attacks, vibratory attacks, and I know I missed a better joke there, but my mom's gonna watch this. Okay, so first let's talk about the cars. Okay, cars typically use wafer locks. To your right are the wafers. Wafers are obviously different than pen tumbler locks. They don't split, it isn't two pins stacked on top of one another. In this case, those wafers, when they're matched to the proper key, will fit in the middle of the housing of the lock, which is on the left there. There'll be an animation to demonstrate this in a second, which I just realized I didn't queue up, so it's going to be amateur hour in a second here, but that'll be just fine. Okay, the wafers are typically stacked opposite of one another. One will spring up, the next will spring down. One will spring up, the next will spring down. So they're occupying either this top chamber or this bottom chamber, and the key brings them into the middle. Hold on a second. I am doing everything I can not to demonstrate the porn. Oh yeah, you just made me say porn in front of my mom. You're the worst. All right, hold on. Oh my God. There we go. So, we're just removing the springs for clarity sake, but as the normal key enters the lock, it will drag each of the wafers into the middle of the chamber. You turn it, they turn freely inside of there. Does that make sense? Beautiful. Overlifting is an incredibly simple attack taking advantage of how these locks work. It's just an inherent flaw in the nature of these locks, and there are things that you can do to improve it. We're going to show you overlifting with a key blank, and then we're going to talk about the inspiration behind this talk and how I broke my own car. When a key blank is inserted into the lock, it pushes each of the wafers beyond the chamber that they would normally be caught in. So now they're going to be blocking in the opposite chamber, but they're trying to be sprung back to their natural chamber. Keep that pressure on as you remove the key, and instead of returning to their home chamber, they collide with the side of the housing. Reinsert just to the tip of the lock of the key, and the lock will open. So that's a simple overlifting attack. Now, importantly, and as to why this talk happened whatsoever, I don't get to use this photo enough, so it'll actually be in the talk twice. I got to thinking, what else could I use instead of just a blank key? And then I thought Popsicle sticks, what if Popsicle sticks could replace the keys to my car? Of course, what happened when I initially tried this on my car, the first attempt. So it was winter, and when you're done eating a Popsicle stick, the stick is typically still pretty moist. So whether successful or not, and admittedly I was not, I did not open it on my first try. And I got into the car, it was fine, and I drove away and everything, but night comes, and all of the fluid that I just jammed into the lock, of course, helps the lock freeze overnight. And then I, because it's not like I know anything about locks, just get really mad the next morning and just keep shoving my key in until I've bent the wafers out of place and my driver's side door never worked again. But if at first you don't succeed, I might not know what it means, but I know my audience. So yes, I did manage to open, I managed to open my passenger side lock during the spring with the same technique. To be perfectly honest, this did not succeed many times, but it was very exciting for me the idea that I could potentially be out of my house with absolutely no picks on me whatsoever, but still be able to, we'll talk about the ethics later, but still be able to steal a car. I tell an incredibly strict ethical line, I don't even pick the locks on my front door because I rent, so technically I don't actually own them. I'm incredibly strict about it because I'm a little bit worried that if I start crossing small lines, that I've gone on a lot of long road trips where I'll see like a 24-hour thing, but it's actually shut down for some reason and I'm like, man, I really want a Coca-Cola. I could just let myself in and leave some money on the counter, and that's a recipe for disaster. But it got me to think, and you'll note that I vamped on the slide of the good photo, but it got me thinking, what else could I do? What other attacks are there? And there are a lot of them that are already well-known. All of us dapper lock folks aren't going to be particularly surprised by the things I'm delivering today, but the rest of you, Ravel, I hope that this will blow your minds. So this is the one that you all know about. This is the one that lived in legend, or if you don't know about it, don't worry, I'll recap. But the idea here is that a bick, that a kryptonite U-lock, plus a bick pen, equals that dirty rat Calhoun of scouting with your bicycle. I want to thank Doug Farr, who I was just told hit his head and ended up at the hospital. That's not true, don't worry, he's just a dick and didn't show up to the talk. But he did tell me where to find some locks that I'm going to use in the demo here. So kryptonite's one of kryptonite's advertisements here, this reads, nothing is harder to steal than an immovable object. So kryptonite were actually beloved when they came out in 1972, I believe. And by 1974, the concept of the U-lock was so revolutionary and had replaced everybody's heavy chains that they were inducted into the Museum of Modern Art as a design, a paragon art piece. Now, what was inducted into the Museum of Modern Art was the kryptonite four bike lock. And we'll explain the precise importance of that in a minute. First, let's demo. Man, is that echo actually crazy or am I just hearing it crazy? Oh, am I enunciating enough for everyone? Have any of you ever, any of you want to watch The Stooges? You know that song they do, B-E-B-V-A-B-I-B-I-B-I-B-O-B-E-B-I-O-B-U-Boo, B-E-B-E-B-I-B-O-Boo. My mom used to sing that to me. Okay, so kryptonite bike lock, big pen. This is actually, oh man, I had one from the Shmoo group. Oh yeah. Oh no, it's just over at the TF2 table. Anyway, but I have a bunch of pens here. So the cap is blown off. I'm just gonna jam it into the lock. Gonna twist a little bit deep in it. Not quite. I was letting one of the other competing speakers play with this. So I might have to open up the new pen over in the speaker ready room. Oh, almost there. Okay, it has already, I know you can't see this, turned one position, we need to turn at least two before the shackle will actually release for us. You know the great thing is that despite knowing about this to attack academically for years now, earlier today was the first time that I ever actually successfully attempted it. I mean the thing with this attack is that you, any of you could walk up and carry it out. It's called a self-impressioning attack. But why, why does it work? All right, so the Kryptonite bike locks used tubular locks. And at the time of this attack, they were using a not very good tubular lock. So tubular locks are just like normal pin tumbler locks. They have a key pin, but it's flat, not tapered. They have a driver pin. The yellow on white shows up better than I had feared. They have a driver pin that will be below the key pin and then there's a spring below that. Surrounding them, you have your plug and you have your housing of the lock. The separating line between the plug and the housing of the lock is the shear line. These locks will rotate. Blocking the shear line are all of the driver pins. It's just like a normal pin tumbler lock. It's just that it's radially aligned. You also would not guess that my prior career was as a graphic designer. So around the edges of the key, you'll see notches. Those notches correspond to the heights of the key pins. Each key pin will be a unique height that corresponds to the depth cut into the side of the key. Again, just a normal pin tumbler lock in a different configuration. So with the proper key inserted, all of the key pins will be depressed so that the bottom of the key pin and the top of the driver pin are sitting at the shear line and the lock can rotate freely. Does that make sense? Fabulous. So importantly, because each of the drivers are exactly the same height, every stack will have a unique height. When you insert something soft into that situation, the spring's all being made out of the same metal and pushing back at the same rate. The driver pin's all being the same height and the key pin's all being unique heights means that the lock itself impressions a key into the soft surface that you are attacking it with. So the key pins are literally pushed into your piece of plastic, making a key that will operate that lock. Self-impressioning is a pretty bad-ass attack. So here's the really important part, and this I only found out recently. This is the little value add from the historian side of the work that I do. Kryptonite 4 bike locks that were inducted into the Museum of Modern Art and so on and so forth used ACE2 tubular locks. ACE2 tubular locks use different types of metal in their springs so that the springs will not push back at the same rate so that you cannot carry out a self-impressioning attack. Even if all of the drivers are the same height and even if each stack has a unique height, if the springs push back at different rates, you won't get a key reproduced. They're still pickable. There are still tools to pick them. They're not perfect by any means, but at least the self-impressioning attack is pretty much dead in the water except on certain particular bitings. So what happened? Well, I intend to find out. Sometime in the late 80s when they were going through major design change in their locks, somebody made the decision to drop the higher end ACE2 lock and go with a cheap Chinese tubular lock that was designed to fail in this way. What you also need to note is that because the ACE2 lock existed whatsoever, this was a known problem that had a known solution. So they were reintroducing this flaw. It wasn't a major discovery. I mean, Mark Tobias was talking about how Kensington locks were reproducing this flaw and so on and so forth. Only months before the Kryptonite thing blew up. So the Smithsonian happens to have 17 crates of corporate records of the Kryptonite bike lock company from 1972 until 2001 when they were acquired by Ingersoll Rand. I'm going to be going down there in October. I'm going to spend as long as it takes at the Smithsonian digitizing as much as I can or eating as much as I can. My goal is to find the name of the person that made that decision. And if I'm successful, I'll probably submit that as a fire talk somewhere. Okay. So let's move on to handcuffs. I'm a little bit nervous, but I did bring a handcuff key up on stage with me if this goes poorly. My cooler's banquet appears to not be quite as thick a can as I was hoping it would be, but we should be able to pop some handcuffs open with it. All right. This is the interior of a handcuff mechanism. I just want to explain very quickly how it functions. This here is just the pawl. This is what's going to catch your shackle as it enters the lock. This is just a leaf spring that is perpetually pushing the pawl down. We're not going to talk about double locking toward the end of this, but the important thing here is that there is a way to keep the pawl from ever retracting until you put the proper key in. That's what this piece of blue is here. It would shove over and keep the pawl from lifting up. You double lock someone both for their comfort and to keep them from carrying out the attack we're about to describe. I don't think I found my mug shot though, so I'll tell you right now I was arrested a little while ago, and three out of the five times I was in cuffs, they were not doing it properly. So in practice, it's not always applied. Everything worked out brilliantly with the arrest. No formal charges or anything, it worked out great. So, here is the top portion of the handcuff. With the shackle inserted, the ratcheting mechanism just marries into each other very firmly so you can't retract the shackle. But because of the slopes, you can continue to push the shackle inward. Very simple. If you introduce a thin piece of metal to the situation and actually close the shackle on yourself, a position, the thin piece of metal will be drawn in between the teeth by the ratcheting mechanism, thus blocking the teeth from locking into one another again and you can just pull the shackle right back out. So, I'm going to try to do this. I have the handcuff key with me. I'm under confident in this particular attack. However, it's a key piece of gringo warrior. So, if I fail miserably here, you can see me get out of the cuffs crazy fast at gringo warrior, I promise. All right, so I'm just going to cut off a little bit of this Coors Lake Banquet, which by the way was $14 for a six pack. But I guess that's what you get when you live in the banquet lifestyle. So, as I said before, I keep a really strict ethical line, but I definitely live a very rich fantasy life. In particular, I've always dreamed that if I really were cuffed, that maybe at some point in time there would be like a soda can on the ground or something and I could just kick it, you know, kick it into shards and rip it open with my teeth and everything until I got exactly the right little piece of metal and then free myself from my cap doors. In reality, I'd probably get tased. But you can dream. What was that? Is this your first stuff gone? I'm not asking that to make fun of you, I'm honest. So have you ever seen the gringo warrior event? Come on out, you're gonna love it. It'll answer all of your questions. It's at noon today, I believe, in the contest area. You start in cuffs, typically behind your back. My fastest time out of those was 10 seconds. All right, that went poorly. Did you really? Yes, that's what I'm looking for. I rolled deep. It is not dremeled out like the tool guys do. Okay, nice, nice. He's talking about the universal handcuff key which is a talk that the tool guys give which is pretty slick. Okay, so cans that I confirm this funk with, diet sunkissed, worked awesome. But no, apparently not the Coors banquet. So if the metal is a little bit too thin and the leaf spring in the ratchet is strong enough, it will actually crimp it when it inserts in just getting your shim stuck in the lock and only making things worse for you. So grain of salt on this particular attack. Do you wanna play with that? Yeah, all right. Is it okay if he uses your, oh, great, excellent. Yeah, there you go. Okay, so we're now going to talk about sesame lock decoding. We're going to explain how sesame locks work and then I'm gonna grab another animation and go through those. Okay, a little water first. And we should have time for a little bonus material and some Q and A at the end of this as well so that if you're curious about other DIY attacks we can get into them. Okay, so in your sesame lock, this is like a briefcase lock. We showed a picture of it at the start. It'll have a series of small wheels all facing outward toward you with numbers on those wheels. In reality, your outer wheel here has a smaller wheel inside of it with a gap cut out of it. The gap is there to accept the teeth of the locking mechanism. So there's our gap, there's our teeth. In this case, there will be three teeth on this, all of which will push in at once, releasing the shackle on this particular device. This particular device was meant to lock around a USB key in order to protect your data. The first time that I ever played with it, it fell apart in my hands. So with the teeth pushed inward. So we're going to use a small piece of metal that you can retrieve out of a DVD security tag. That small white piece of plastic or small black piece of plastic inside of the DVD case or CD or video game, or I even found some in some curtains once. They're used all over the place. Inside are two fantastic small pieces of metal. They're incredibly thin and make amazing shims. Now you can use shims for a number of things. In fact, the slide that I showed when I was rapid fire going through the shimming was shimming the back of a lock. If you shim the back of a lock, you don't have to use a key in it or pick it in order to perform maintenance on it. You can just use the shim to slide between the shear line. In our case though, we're going to use it to decode the sesame lock. Here you see this tucked into the gate. And the idea behind this attack is that we're going to allow the shim to rest on the interior wheel of the sesame lock and then slowly turn the lock until we feel the shim drop inward. When the shim drops inward, we know that the gate is now facing us. That isn't the locked position, but I'll show you an animation here, which we'll demonstrate that. Okay, we'll just scramble the wheels to start and introduce our shim. So the shim rides along the interior wheel, tucking right along the side of the main wheel. The timing isn't the best on this. As it begins to rotate, hopefully it will stay in the same position, the same position, and one position it will go in quite noticeably. So leave that there. Five actually is not the first number in our combination. What we need to do right now is just get all of the gates lined up. With all of the gates lined up, we now know that those teeth are all going to be in the same orientation. So we just turn all of the numbers together, try the shackle, turn them together, try the shackle. Turn them together, try the shackle. And we've now reduced a thousand combinations down to 10 possible combinations. Thank you all. Okay, now the palm sander. So the palm sander is going to affect some safes. So to quickly explain how safes work, this is one of the wheels in a three wheel pack safe. There'll be a spindle along here, but the important thing is the exterior. So if this is completely filled and there's just one gate out on the side, not dissimilar from the sesame lock, open, awesome. All he did was double up the metal because it was so thin. So you could still potentially kick and crush a can your way to victory. And outrun the teasing. So we have a few of these in the lock, right? In between each of the wheels is what we call a fly. That's the small bit in the middle of it. Each fly picks up the next wheel in the lock. So these aren't directly driven. Each one influences the next. When you have to pass by your number a couple of times, what you're actually doing is picking up every wheel in the lock with the one wheel that's directly driven off of the dial. So, when you pick up that last wheel, you leave it behind, then turn two times faster your other number, right? That way you're picking up your own wheel and the next wheel. Leave that one behind one time, leave that one behind in the final number. Or in this case, I did one too many, but that's the idea. So the important thing, because these aren't direct driven, each one of them can rotate independent of one another if the right sort of force is applied to it. So these are just a quick see-through three of the wheels in our safe, and this then is our locking bar. So when they're all lined up after you've dialed your combination incorrectly, that bar can drop down into place and your safe can open. Super simple. However, in some not terribly well-made locks, the bar might be right there. And if you apply a vibratory force to the dial of the lock, the wheels will want to settle with either the most material down or the least material facing up. So, without ever dialing anything, just by applying that constant vibration, you'll eventually get the wheels to settle into the top gated position, allowing that to drop in and the safe to open. Now, I picked up a safe to do as a demo, nothing that I was going to fly out to Def Con with, of course, but just a small fire safe to try this out on myself and it wasn't working and I pulled it apart to actually look inside and I was like, oh, fairly clever. They knew as much to mount the bar right here. But I mean, this was a 65 pound exterior fire safe, so I just tipped it over and it worked great. I often say when I'm doing trainings and talking to people about various other methods of entry and picking with traditional tools and things like that as well, that very often we know a lot of information before we approach a lock. We know information about its keyway, we know information about the cut depths of the key, we know if it's a master key system, so on and so forth. And having that prior information or even having that information stored in the memory banks when we walk up to a lock and see, oh, it's a Schlage Primus, I'm in an apartment bill there. You know, it probably has a regional sidebar vulnerability and we can go to that tool set. So in this case, there are schematics available. You know, there are patents available. You can even just buy something and pull it apart to see at what angle this particular guy is set. And if it's an exterior safe that isn't bolted into anything, you can just shim the legs of it up to the right angle to carry out this particular attack. There was a probably apocryphal story about a naval ship. There's actually two good stories about Navy ships and locks. But they were having these safes opening all over the decks and they couldn't figure out why it was happening and there were stories of a ghost and things like that. But in reality, the forces being exerted on the safes from the ship, the engines, the turbulence of the water, et cetera, et cetera, were just enough to occasionally make the wheels settle out just enough that the bar could drop in once in a while, they shook the dial and now the whole thing opened. I don't know how true that is, but it's certainly a good story. How are we on time? Awesome, all right, we have plenty of time for me to tell the other story, which has nothing to do with the talk, but is also pretty funny. So a fantastic, a beautiful Russian lady, for whatever reason, has been invited on to a military ship in order to sort of take a formal cruise of a particular area. And she says to a young naval officer, oh, it's so beautiful out here, it's so lovely, but I'm a little worried about my jewels. They belong to my grandmother. Could I give them to you? And could you put them somewhere safe for me? So he, of course, goes and puts them in their safe. She, later, approaches the safe with a sheet of paper, comes back later and opens the safe and takes everything out of it. Because the sheet of paper was radiographic film and her necklace was radioactive. Again, it's apocryphal, but... Certainly a good story. All right, there are a couple of other things that I want to show you. One is items that you can make your own picks out of, and then another fantastically clever little hack that Doug Farr reminded me of before I came out here, which I don't have slides for, but I'm still going to demo for you on stage and try to explain how it works. Cool, so we're gonna do those and then we should have plenty of time for questions. Banked through a lot of material a little faster than I expected. All right, I'll put this up in the meanwhile so you can track me down. So this is a windshield wiper blade. You, many of you probably have these. And if you don't want to give up your own, you probably know where to find some. So, inside the windshield wiper blade are two fantastic little pieces of spring steel. The spring steel in these is perfect for making your own picks out of. Other sources for good pick making material from found objects. Street sweep of bristles. This is a relatively common one in the community and some people outside of it may have heard of it as well. But if you literally just get on your bike and bicycle along behind a street sweeper while it's doing its work, occasionally its spring steel bristles will snap off and lay in the gutter for you. Pick those up, clean them up, make your own tools out of them. Making your own picks is actually relatively easy. If you have hand files and a little bit of patience, you can bang them out pretty quickly. If you don't have much patience, but have a $10 grinding wheel, you can bang them out very quickly. Definitely finish your picks and the one thing that I wanna explain about this before you all go and put some spring steel through the palm of your hands is how to disassemble this safely. Very simple. Just worry the rubber portion out from the middle and then pull down. It'll pull out cleanly and you'll be left with two beautiful pieces of spring steel that you can use for tension wrenches, lock picks, so on and so forth. If you try to pry the spring steel out without first removing the rubber, it will turn into a bow and fire one of them into you. So please be careful about that. Okay, finally. This is a Master Lock 175. This is a Sesame Lock. It's a padlock. I am going to just open it very quickly and then explain to you how I opened it very quickly. Hopefully I open it very quickly in reality. Yeah, there, just like that. So, we're fairly clever lock pickers and we can come at things in a number of different ways. One of the most important things to think about when you are first approaching a lock or first approaching designing a lock is that there are all sorts of attacks that we know about and have known about that might get accidentally reinvigorated in your really super secure design but we'll just bypass the primary mechanism altogether and open your lock without ever consulting your nice, you know, Sesame Lock or whatever the other case may be. In this case, with a thin piece of metal, in this case I'm using a pick which I know isn't a found object but we could use the windshield wiper blade or a Street Super Bristle. I've had to perform this attack with a Street Super Bristle before. Push the shackle down, hold it down, go in above the numbers, not very deep, turn, not very deep, turn, open. There is a plate inside of the lock that wants to interact with the wheels of the lock just like we were talking about Sesame Locks before. However, because of the design of this particular one you can interact with that plate directly just by poking at it. You push the shackle in in order to release that plate so that it can move freely. Push the shackle in so that it's no longer under spring pressure, one more time, in, not very deep, push, open. That's all there is to it. So, sorry about the huge echo. So, picking with materials that you find yourself is incredibly satisfying. Again, the idea for this talk came on a lark when I broke my car one day, trying to screw around with things. In general, don't forget that you can break things so please don't pick locks that you rely on. Please don't pick locks that anybody else relies on. But if you personally rely on it and nobody else does and you're willing to screw yourself over, like I am, go ahead. Does anybody have any questions? We have some time right now. Yes. Yes, oh, you found the thing that we skipped. Okay. The idea behind spiking is an electronics problem and I had invited a friend up to talk about that as that's more his domain than my domain. The basic idea though is that in most electronics safes there'll be a solenoid that actually needs to move out of the way in order for the locking bars to be retracted. That solenoid is controlled by the electronic keypad so when it gets the right authentication via whatever it's authentication mechanism is, the solenoid will retract, allowing the locking bars to also retract. However, if you completely bypass the authentication mechanism, say with a nine volt battery, drill into the right part of the lock, again, this goes back to when I said that we know a lot about locks when we first approach them. So we can understand the schematics, we can download them from the internet, we can literally just have a page that tells us drill here. Put two small holes in where you can put the leads off of your nine volt battery, completely bypass the authentication mechanism and fire the solenoid directly. That's spiking. Does that make sense? Excellent. I only skipped it because it's not my domain but I think that makes sense. Any other questions? Yes. The tab off of the top of a soda can to do the handcuffs? I think that it might be a little bit too thick. The actual operating space in there tends to be quite tight. However, if one of the folks in the lockpick village is willing to let you play with it, they definitely have cans and they definitely have handcuffs. Oh, that's not a bad idea at all. Yeah, try that out, let me know how it works. Yeah, excellent. Yes. Oh yeah, man, that's rude of me. She was wondering if the interior tab, the part that breaks away when you want to drink your soda, if that might be a little bit thicker but still available to you to shim the handcuff. It'll definitely be a little bit too wide but if you trim it down, it might be thick enough and work well. So she'll play around with that. Anybody else? Yes. Completely dependent. I only managed to do it on two. The one that I had to knock over went like that once I knocked it over because the gates were about that big and the actual locking bar was about that big. It was, I'm very sorry, that's the second time I've done that. He was asking how long it takes to palm sand the safe open. I was explaining that the easiest one for me went very quickly because the actual locking bar was maybe a fifth the size of the gate that was available for it. It was made to be incredibly forgiving as you dialed it in and very poorly made despite being relatively expensive. The other one that I worked on were slightly tighter tolerances but it was still probably two to one and did go after a while. I did not work on any high security safes when operating on that. So I don't want to say that. None of these attacks are universal. These attacks are taking advantage of shortcuts and poor engineering. That's what we're taking advantage of with the DIY. Yes. How much embarrassment? No, I would, before I would ever say it publicly, I'm very curious to have a conversation with him. Most of my work, most of my primary work concerns the history of lock engineering and how changes in physical security have affected culture. When the Kryptonite bike lock happened, it was such a public disclosure. Many, many, many people were affected by it. Kryptonite had to respond in an incredible way and even ace two locks which were not vulnerable to that attack were forever besmirched because they looked just like the lock on the Kryptonite. And to this day, when somebody sees a tubular lock, they'll say, oh man, you can open that with a big pen, even if it's not the case. So I want to know why it happened and I want to know if he was aware of the decision that he was making. And if we get to a point where I can't manage to have that conversation, yeah, I'll probably say his name. Thank you. We have 10 minutes. Yes. He said it was about money. Yes. Thank you very much. He said that I should tell loved ones if I'm gonna go talk to this Kryptonite guy in private where I'm gonna be. Anybody else? Thank you all. Oh, I'm so sorry. Wait. Yes. Damage to the internal components of the lock is really low unless you're, I mean, anything that you're doing outside of the norm has the chance to wear things out faster. You're definitely gonna leave marks on the exterior of the lock as well. Though you could probably mitigate that I suppose by putting something non-abrasive in there. Yeah, the first one that I did, I was an idiot and I kept the sandpaper on. Because I just grabbed it in a friend's place. But yes, no, that's a good point. He says they have rubber bases, they shouldn't be marking. But as far as risk to the internal components, really it's just about wear. You'll be putting it through a lot of its paces, but they're very simple machines. So the risk shouldn't be high. Again though, remember locks can break, so please don't pick a lock you rely on. Thank you all so much.