 Hello and welcome to Pookie Ponders, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, why does touch have so many benefits when combined with story? And I'm in conversation with Mary Atkinson. Hello, I'm Mary Atkinson. I'm a writer and I'm a complementary therapist. And I'm co-founder with Sandra Hooper of the story massage program, which combines the benefits of positive touch, nurturing touch with all the fun and creativity of storytelling. And sitting by my side is Emmanuel, who is the teddy bear that I've been demonstrating on through lockdown for the past year. And we've been doing story massage, we've been taking it into family homes, we've been doing lots of live demonstrations on social media. And they've been watched by families at home, by schools, special schools. And I think it's been really, they've really brought home all the sort of feedback that they've been given of the connection and the comfort that sharing massage stories can bring. So yeah, so that's why Emmanuel is sitting by my side. So our episode question today, although I think our conversation will go many different directions, but our episode question is why does touch have so many benefits when combined with story? So maybe you can tell us a little bit about that and jump off, jump us off there a little, and then talk to us about story massage and that specific approach that you have developed with Sandra. Well, I think that touch, if we start with touch, I suppose we've got touch and we've got story. So we've got the combination of the two. And I think we've all really realized the importance of touch through lockdown. I mean, there's so many stories of people really, really experiencing touch hunger, skin hunger, people not being able to hug, not being able to sort of be close to people. And a lot of that is when you touch somebody, when you hug somebody, when you give somebody a nurturing touch, there's a release of a hormone that's called oxytocin. And oxytocin is the antidote to the stress hormones, adrenaline and cortisol. So during positive touch, you're really lowering those stress hormones so people feel a sense of calmness and connection with the world around them. And that's released in the person who's receiving the touch, as well as the person who's giving the touch, which gives you that bonding. It's a bonding hormone. So you really feel that that sense of being together. And I think we've really missed that. And I think through lockdown people have actually really realized how much we need touch and we take touch for granted. So you've got the importance of touch and the benefits of touch plus storytelling, which is fun and familiar and people can let their imaginations run riot and they can be creative and familiar. It can be comforting and reassuring. So when you bring the two together, people have said something quite magical happens because you the touch can help you to feel the story. So you can really start to, the words are important, but also you get the sort of, even if there's no language for children who don't can't process language, then the touch will bring the words of the story to life. So the two really, really work together in combination. And you brought the two together in your wonderful book, which I love once upon a touch, which is full of stories and the kind of the touch and the gestures that go, go with them. Can you explain a little bit more about that, that book and that process to people who might be listening or watching and why you created that. I might start with the, a little bit of the history of it actually, if that's alright. Because actually, it began in 2012. I'd met with Sandra before we had a very good working relationship. And then in, I'd written a book that's called Healing Touch for Children, which is about massage your own therapy, acupressure for children really written for parents with very simple ideas of how to help people how to help their children. And that won an award. And so I was talking at an award ceremony, and I was approached by a Japanese lady who said this was very shortly after the tsunami, who said this is what we need in Japan. We need somebody who's going to be able to come out and to help us to work with the children who aren't reaching out to each other, many of them weren't saying anything. They were not able to cope with the trauma. I found myself saying, well, I'll come out. So a few months later, I went out to the tsunami area with my husband and with the help of a social worker. And I thought a really good way to help those children would be to write a massage story. So I wrote a massage story about the healing power of nature, which has now been translated into lots of different languages, and put some strokes to the words, a bit like we used to do round and round the garden and this little piggy. I just made up some strokes that would go with the words and the impact on those children was so powerful. They were actually reaching out to each other. They were saying they wanted to take it home to their families. Some of them were taking it to the emergency shelters to share the massage story with the elderly people. So I felt those children have been transformed through a very, very simple massage story. They were smiling again. They were laughing and it was absolutely so I can't explain how how it felt. And when I came back, I just thought there's something here. There really is something that we need to do. So I got in touch with Sandra and at first we just weren't really sure how to what to do with it. We just wanted to share it with everyone. I'm lucky I have a daughter who's a teacher. At the time I was, and I have another daughter who's a trainee educational psychologist. And at the time we were, I was working in a hospice. So I had lots of connections we came together in various different working parties, and came up with the idea of 10 strokes. This is the program now. So working together we came up with the idea of 10 massage strokes. Each of those strokes have has a name, such as the circle, and each has a symbol and an action. So there's 10 strokes and that's all we have. And that means that it can be very readily easily shared people, then have a language. So rather than saying, at this point in the story, you would do a large circle with your hand, or you would do a fan shape, you would just say let's do the circle. And so everybody knows what you're doing. So for example, the circle, we'll talk about that one is a big circle. You can go on the back on the legs wherever you choose to do the strokes, wherever's accessible and wherever's appropriate for the person you're working with. So that circle would illustrate. It could be a pond. It could be a sun. It could be a cake or a pizza. You could do little tiny circles, and those circles could illustrate bubbles in a bubble bath or baubles on a Christmas tree. So these strokes are then used to illustrate the words of the story, which helps to really bring the story to life. So the strokes are used to illustrate the actions in a story, the objects in a story or the emotions in a story, which makes it brings it brings those words to life, and makes it meaningful for people. So that's what the story massage program is. And when we first originated it we did the book. And then after that people wanted to know more so then we did the training. And at the time there was absolutely no idea about how or where it would be used but it's the imagination and the creativity of the people who've taken it on board that have really made it sort of what it is now. Where does it get used. It gets used from naught to over 100 and it gets used from sort of baby massage groups through schools, special schools, care homes people with dementia, helping to prompt memories. The main use at the moment, I think is nurture groups in in schools, because it helps to really helping to build positive relationships. Also in special schools where it's really helping with engagement and communication. It's such a lovely tool and it's one that I I've given away a lot of copies of your books over over time and I've used it myself as well and both professionally and personally my daughters loved it when they were little. And there's something about the way that you the stories are told so it's not even just about the strokes actually they've got that nice kind of rhythm and cadence to them as well and their stories that feel familiar. And I think that yeah really powerful. I was thinking about it today as we were preparing to talk and I once had a whole conference room full of people all do the strokes to each other like round the tables in the room as well like 100 and something people in the room. And now thinking about this in in pandemic times I'm thinking what was I doing all those people touching each other. And I suppose that brings to mind a question around touch and particularly there's a lot of uses of your your book and the and the story message within education. Do you ever get questions around like appropriate touch and how do we keep this. Okay, do people get fearful about using touch. But actually on the reverse a lot of people have said because of using story massage children and young adults are learning appropriate touch. Because very very very much integral to the program is that you would always ask permission. I always say, is it okay if I give you a story massage. And that can be done verbally for many children, but if not it's done through picture cards through eye contact, whatever way it is that that person who's receiving the massage can give consent. And it's, and then at the end of the massage you will say, thank you for letting me give you a massage. So children have taught that. And what's interesting is they pick up on it, they really do if you forget it. And sometimes in the playground kids will say, you didn't ask to touch me. So they're learning appropriate touch. And they're also really learning that it's okay to say no. There was a college actually of people who are learning skills, life skills, and the tutor said it was the first time that these young adults had actually really learned to say a confident no. They understood that if you said no to touch it was all right. Because if people say no they don't want to massage, then within our teachings, we will say well actually you don't have one then, but what they will do is take part in the activity in some way. So it might be that they might work the PowerPoint they might say some of the words, they might sit and watch, they might do the strokes on the floor, they might do it on their own teddy bear, but or on themselves. And then they take part, they see what's going on. And then very often they might want to take part afterwards, but it's never forced on them. So they understand that the need to say no and that they have every right to say no. If they say no, then it will be accepted and they won't, won't have the massage and throughout it as well we really encourage feedback. So if they say they want it firmer than the person who's giving the massage will give it to the much firmer or lighter. And actually for many of them, it's they are really listened to and that's really important to them. Because it will sometimes it will be an adult giving it to a massage if that's appropriate within the school setting. But it might, but if it's not appropriate within the school setting, then very often it's peer massage as well. So it's children massaging each other. And you started off with Indian head massage is that right. That's where you started and then you've ended up what was the kind of the journey through there how did you go from heads to. I was I'm a writer so I trained. I was journalist, and I'd written several books already on various different topics. And then I decided to retrain and I retrained in massage and the really, really loved Indian head massage largely because it was very creative and they didn't seem to be too many rules around it. Well rules yes but you could sort of do your own thing and make things personal and adaptable which is what I like and from your own personality to it. And the, I said to my agent there's no book on Indian head massage and she said well right one then. I don't get this these days and the very next day I had a contract to write a book on Indian head massage, and it was actually the very first book that had been written on Indian head massage. And because there wasn't anything about it, I had to talk to India I didn't have to. I loved doing it. I spoke to a lot of Indian families about their tradition of head massage. And their tradition is that children are massaged from birth, they just believe this touch is absolutely vital to them. And then when the children get to be three or four, then they will just have their heads massaged. And then when they're six or seven they join in the family ritual of massaging each other. And I absolutely love this idea of massage in the family home and the importance of massage and touch and bonding with each other. And what really struck me was, I was speaking to one lady who said she hadn't really come across anxiety or the depression that we have over here that the mental health problems that we have over here. She was an Ayurvedic doctor and I said is that because of massage is that because of the warmth or the family life. And she said, she felt it was because from a very, very, very young age. Children are taught to this something that they can do. They're always taught there's something that they can do if they feel that they have a, you know, a bit of anxiety or whatever. There's something you can do and that might be that you would massage yourself, you might ask your mom for a massage, you might ask for certain foods. And that self help to me has been a really important part of my work I think in giving children giving families tools that they can help themselves. Yeah, that's powerful isn't it knowing there's something you can do to change how you're feeling right now. It's a really, really wonderful episode of this with with the story message program where there was a young lad who really couldn't regulate his emotions he found it really hard to calm down. He'd actually, he came from a very difficult family. His parents were were using drugs and, and the home life was really, really difficult for him. And he was very, very angry. And he was excluded from school, but somebody came on a training and learn how to do the story message program and felt it would relate to him and it really did. He sort of sparked something within him. And actually they were. They were evicted from the house that they were living in. And this young lad sat on the pavement outside, and he wrote a story massage in his own head. The words weren't meaningful, but he wrote it in his own in his head, and he came in the next day and said to this lady, I didn't go off on one I didn't, you know I didn't have a meltdown, because I would I learned to do story massage and he said, I imagined what it felt like to have it have the methods done on me. And it felt so powerful that he had actually found something, and that realization that there is something that you can do for him was really powerful. That's incredible. So I was, I was going to say is this is does it work with all different ages because you'd said from kind of not to 100 plus but I wondered if there's a bit in the middle there where maybe young people wouldn't engage so readily but maybe it's more individual than that and different people. The important thing is to find something that engages the person. So, we often say well people will say well with teenagers wouldn't do this it's kind of not cool for teenagers, but they. Do a story massage it doesn't have to be you can do a story massage to anything we say story but actually it's poems it's rhymes it's something you've made up so people might do it to pop songs. So there's a lot of songs from pink. A lot of rap songs, which have a lot of meaning in them. So you can do the story massage to to those as well you put, and then the teenagers would get together they would decide which strokes they thought would go to the music, and, and to the words, and then write their own. The greatest showman's been really, really popular. This is me. And children, young adults, teenagers have been able to relate to the words. And when you have those words given to you with with with the strokes that really brings them to life and you can really you really feel it. I suppose it helps you connect with the yeah with the words and the music in it in an even deeper way so a very mindful activity. Yes, yes definitely. When you worked in the hospice was that massage as well or was that different what was your role there. And I just, I had trained, I just trained, and they were looking for people to work in the day center there. I applied, and I didn't really have very much experience but I just felt very at home there felt sort of very able to be around sick people. And I, and they, they obviously felt the same. So I was employed and so I, I set up the first the complimentary therapy day service there, and also in the wards. Then I was very aware so I was working as a therapist there. And but I was very aware that at the time to be a this was in 2000 to be a complimentary therapist to work with people with cancer was actually a contraindication. You weren't supposed to do it it said people with cancer shouldn't be having massage. And I couldn't work that out. So I kind of got together with various other people, and we set up a complimentary therapy education department within the hospice and actually managed to get the rules changed. Oh wow. So from 2005, you could, it's now it's fine to massage people with cancer but it was just what the regulations were saying. Why was that why were the regulations there what was the thinking behind that. The thinking behind that was that they thought that massage massage works on the lymphatic drainage system. And they thought that cancer if cancer is spread through the lymphatic drainage system, then by stimulating the lymphatic drainage system through massage, it might spread the cancer. So you had to prove that wasn't the case. Yeah, and it was very much there was various other people who had proved it but it hadn't really been kind of brought on board for the training and for the curriculums for massage therapy. But I mean really if you sort of think about it the lymphatic drainage system doesn't have a pump, it works by muscular movement. So but people will run a marathon with cancer and everyone plaits them on the back and says well done. And running a marathon is going to have so much more impact on the lymphatic system than a massage. So there was lots of reasons why it was discredited really that that view. I love that you just decided though right this needs to change so you just cracked on and did it that's amazing. Was it not very hard working in a hospice I've done a couple of bits of work with hospices and I've always been a huge admirer for the for the staff who work there but it's, you know, always understood that it's quite challenging. But I think you're touching people on a very human level and I'm very real level. I felt, I think I suppose this goes back to my career early career as a journalist I was my job was always interviewing people. And I'm absolutely fascinated like you and people and what makes people tick and I found I was being able to connect on a really real level with people with real people. When they were dying they didn't have their barriers up. And so you got their real stories. You can find you could find out so many fascinating things about their life, their belief. We talked in depth and really I really treasured those moments it felt a huge privilege to be my people who are dying and their families. Yeah, there were lots of very very sad moments when you got very close to people, but equally, if you could be part of helping somebody to have a happier, more peaceful last few months, then that felt like a privilege. And it's interesting hearing you talk about it because the switch from kind of journalist to working in complimentary therapy feels like a big jump but then suddenly you've helped me understand a little about how perhaps they were more similar. Talk to me about your early career then as a journalist and because it sounds I mean I'm interested to know about how that was but also how that's maybe fed into the work that you've gone on to do because it must have been quite formative I would imagine that. Yes, it is about people's stories I think I was, I worked on various women's magazines like women's realm and very woman and woman's own, and my job was as a celebrity interview. So I was always a really good dinner party guest. I would be my job was going around interviewing people so I went to their homes, all the styles of the time, and, and just found out about their lives and tried to get them to talk about their real selves again and not the sort of what we do on holiday but how they were feeling about their lives and what was going on in their lives. And, and then then I would, I would write it up but you say about the story and that's what's interesting I remember going to a conference when I had just started work at the hospice, and sitting around with a somebody was asking and all they were nurses who'd been working for 2025 years in hospice care people, social workers and I was the last one to be asked to be introduced, you know why are you here. And I was getting more and more and more insecure I just thought, actually, can I just leave now. And I said, Oh, I'm a journalist and my job is getting stories from people. And he said well actually you have every you know you should be here because being a complimentary therapist is about finding out about people's lives and trying to get their stories so that made me feel feel happier and people want to tell their stories and many people won't aren't able or too busy because I mean when you're a nurse you're rushing around you, you know, it's, we have the luxury very often as a therapist to to be able to have the time to listen to people stories and people do want to repeat them and to to share them. And I think stories of what helps you to make sense of your life and to make sense of the world around you. Did you kind of make a very active choice to finish with journalism what was the kind of push and pull there for you. Yes, I, well I suppose I still feel that I carry on because I really like writing blogs and I really like social media so and writing books. So that's the sort of journalism side of it that continues. But I had I sort of dabbled a bit with complimentary therapy and then realize that that was something that I really wanted to do and I really really wanted to work at the hospice. And in so in doing that I, I was at the time I was working freelance I wasn't actually working for a magazine. I was able to just not do the freelance work and concentrate so it was more of a sort of organic move rather than a natural decision. I think my life has always been a bit like that just kind of saying yes to things and, and see where it, where it leads me and what happens and I think you start to realize that one thing will lead to another to another and actually, as you say you're building on things all of the time. I think it's both in the universe a little bit and being open to those opportunities. Yes, it's interesting I find quite often people who I speak to who have had interesting and varied careers. Quite often there is this kind of theme I think of of actually being prepared to be flexible and to take opportunities even if you're not exactly certain how it might go I think it's quite brave isn't it to to be prepared to try new things and yeah allow doors to open. Yeah, I, I certainly did that with doing the lives on social media. Yes, yes talk about the beginning right at the beginning of lockdown I was thinking, how can we use the story massage program to to help people because I could really felt there's got to be benefits and I wanted to be able to offer something to people. I put together a free PDF of lots of massage stories really for people who knew the strokes who had the book who or who had done the training. And they were like 2000 people wanting this PDF I said, I had no idea so many people using the program they still kept coming and wanting more and more it's like wow. And then one of the teachers said would I consider doing live so that people could actually follow along at home. And it would help them because they could then direct a lot because they were suddenly overwhelmed with having so many to be doing homeless schooling and so many different things. I absolutely stepped out of my comfort zone to do my first live, but that was good but it was sort of shaking and a lot went wrong you know I ended up doing lives on my personal page and my business page. But I will always say to people just go for it and I think people just liked the sort of homespunness of it really. Then then I ended up doing it on Instagram I've never been on Instagram before so it's been a big a big learning curve but yeah I think just do it at people. Very often will think I can't do it because I need to add this skill or I can't do it because I need to add the next thing to it, but normally you, if you just go for it and people will tend to think it's okay. Well and I think there's something isn't there about not necessarily needing to know all the answers before you start asking the questions and and just yeah as you say sort of going with the flow a little bit and seeing where the universe kind of takes you. I have been filming all of our churches services throughout lockdown and we're now just hitting the kind of one year anniversary although there's been a little bit of face to face services in between. Yeah we've now done our second Mother's Day online and all this kind of thing and honestly at the beginning if I'd have known it was going to go on this long I'm not sure if I would have ever started doing it. But I do think there's something about isn't there just about just getting on with it and and yeah I don't know I've made a very good friend and become you know really much more part of that community as a result of that and I'm sure that's been the same for you that by being being prepared to put yourself out your comfort zone and step out there you reach a lot more people and yeah many more people can benefit from what you're doing which is really lovely. It is we've just been really kind of knocked out by the reactions as you say the friends that we've made through through doing it and the spreading of the word I think through lockdown story massage has really come into its own. People have started to understand touch the need for touch and and also the stories people have been writing stories about their emotions. We've had a lot of children who've written stories about what it feels like during lockdown. So this is this people can adapt stories. So, like the various stories about bereavement, like the invisible string other stories that people have adapted as a massage story so people can feel it much more than children have been invited to write their own adults have written their own. So it's not only about using pre written stories it's about putting your own personality to the stories. And it's become very much part of literacy in a lot of schools with children sort of writing their own massage stories often around a school topic. And that's what's been been great with. I think it's been very helpful for a lot of schools because people have content school teachers have contacted me and said, help that we've got a topic on chocolate. Could you write a massage story about chocolate or we've got a massage story on pirate topic on pirates, could you write a massage story about that. And so I've been able to do that then then share it on live. And then they've been able to repeat it lots and lots of different times, then also take it home. And a lot of it has been led by the parents actually the teachers have said, you might want to watch this live session you might might want to do some story massage because your son or daughter has been enjoying it in school. And then the parents have been like, Wow, this really helps my child to calm down. My child's really understanding this topic because of the combination of touch and story, and then going back into the school and saying, We need to have more of this in the school so it's been quite parent led, which has been really good. Lovely. I think yeah, you can see how it builds a connection there between between parent and child but also, I hadn't really thought about it before but about how much more able a child might be to take on board the actual wider aspects of their learning, because they're in that really calm state which is so conducive actually isn't it thriving in our learning as well as just thriving in our lives which is, it's incredible. Yeah, but like you in the book there's a story of the, the astronauts walking on the moon. Yes, yes, that was always our favorite actually. We will often get people say, I know that they they walked on the moon the first man walked on the moon in 1969, because I learned it in massage. Because it's a kind of kinesthetic learning and you have the move of the walk, which is the hands walking on the back or the legs, which makes you then remember the astronauts walking. Yeah, it helps you anchor it doesn't it. Yeah. Yeah, there's something really powerful I think anything which pulls on the senses can kind of do that can't it I think sometimes a certain smell or trigger a memory won't it but with this I guess that. Yeah, and it's funny as you're talking about that story I can vividly remember doing that yeah the feet walking on the back. It's a lovely one that one. So you mentioned when we spoke a while ago and that you had been thinking of beginning to slow down a bit doesn't really sound like you're doing that. I think so I think there's there comes a time. I think we've got a camper van. I want to be going off and enjoying the camper van. Now there's so many people who are doing the story massage program I think it's almost got a life of its own well I hope it's got a life of its own. I mean, people still continue doing it, but I feel it's kind of like that other people get on with it and there'll be lots of other people now I mean it will through lockdown what I thought was wonderful was people up to beginning at the beginning were using the videos that I done on Vimeo and on YouTube and sharing them. They were watching the Facebook lives and then all of a sudden the teachers got the confidence to do their own. Lots and lots of teachers were doing that, going with their own with their own teddy bears. They were doing their massages and then zooming them into the parents. And actually what was great was that the children, it was much better because the children recognize the teachers and recognize them they were able to do them and so the, and I mean we have some wonderful stories where they, they were using lots and lots of sensory props, the teachers were dressing up for whatever the theme was, it was a circus theme we had a burner who's a wonderful story massage lady, she was dressed herself as a clown, and dressed the teddy bear up with, you know, hair like a clown. And then these being zoomed into the family homes as part of blended learning or being put up on the school website. And I really liked it that the teachers were taking control and teaching assistants and starting to do their own thing with it, which is, that's great. So the more teachers who can kind of take it on board and do their own thing with it, the better. So you don't have a kind of sort of proprietary sense that it's yours and that you'd worry about it being used in different ways you're quite happy for people to give it a life of its own and continue. In a certain respect, in a certain respect but no there were would be very, very certain rules that we would absolutely want in that it would, I mean if you, we would, you can't train anybody else so we have an online training so we would hope that would definitely continue so people could be doing that. We don't want somebody to train somebody to train somebody because then the whole thing gets really really diluted. So long people would need to be respectful and people are respectful. It's really really positive respectful touch. So people really need to be asking permission saying thank you getting feedback, only massaging areas that are accessible and are appropriate for the person and the person wants those areas to be to be massaged. Yeah, so we would want that and also like age appropriate all that sort of respectful stuff would be really important, and only to stick to the 10 strokes. The programme works, and it's easily shared within the family home easily shared with others. Children can pick it up really easily because of the simplicity. We don't want people to be making up their own strokes because then that doesn't work, or people to be giving them different names. It's that within the structure is the possibility for it to be adapted to be suiting the needs of the person, but and within that structure this becomes flexibility if that makes sense because you can be creative, but within the structure. Yeah, you make things bigger or smaller and faster and slower and things like that. Directions that kind of thing but once you start to create your own strokes or do different strokes, then you don't get that it becomes too big and people can't share it. And the repetition for a lot of children and particularly children with additional needs is really really important so you can repeat strokes, you can keep repeating the stories. So a story that is learnt in school can then be used at home. Yeah. And then that's when the sort of learning takes place. But if you've got too many different strokes and then it's not going to work. Yeah, it becomes complicated. And do you have any advice for people who are working with or caring for children with significant special needs. So we have a lot of people who are either parent care or two or teacher or support staff to children with PMLD or complex learning needs. And I'm thinking particularly here around the permission gaining permission from from those children. Because we know that for many of them they really thrive on a sensory curriculum and I'm sure this fits really, really well with them. But I just wonder about what your advice is about making this work and keeping it respectful and gaining that consent each time. It might well be. I mean we do and I must say that PMLD is a real area where we have a lot of people using it. It might be that you, it's body language, it might be that you start to touch and then you would listen to the body language. And see whether or see some kind of reaction in their eyes or whether they flinch and they don't want it or whether they move towards you and they do want it. So it might well be that you would that would be the way that you would get the permission. I think it's also a lot about intention and and really thinking, is this the right thing to be doing right now. Yeah, yeah. We have a lot of people who have found it really helpful we've got some lovely videos as a lady called Sophie who has a daughter Maisie who is 16 with very, very severe, you know, very severe PMLD. But what was interesting is that she loved to have story massage and recently when she was in hospital. Maisie was in hospital, they gave her story massage every day, and the nurses noticed the difference. They could see how her blood pressure went down, how our heart rate went down, how she responded to the story massage. In fact, some of the nurses are wanting to know a lot more about it, because they were so fascinated by the way that Maisie responded. So she was listening to the to the voice and hit the strokes and she likes certain strokes so she likes the circle and she likes the wave and various other strokes so her mom and her sister will give her her favorite strokes and then you could see how she responds. Yeah, that's really lovely. And I guess that's it isn't it's about learning how to hear the communication from someone. It's about getting to know them isn't it I, I find this always is something I'm always fascinated by is how very much children or adults can communicate when only we learn how to listen. Definitely, it is you can see some of the videos that people have sent in on the stories that we've heard of children young adults who really have hardly can move you know they really. And yet you can see how their eyes light up or their eyes follow the person and the anticipation I love seeing that anticipation. You've been doing, you know, you can see who'd have been doing that I haven't done it but I watch people who've been doing the stories and then you could see the person knowing what's coming next and the excitement of what's coming next. And it might be kind of expressive language they might be sort of making some sounds, but you know that they're ready for what's coming next and they're very excited about what's coming next, because they've had the repetition but they kind of get, even if they can't process the words they don't know the words at all. They know the meaning of the story, because they felt it, they felt strokes. Yeah. So it sort of make helps to make a story meaningful for many children, and many of the parents will say, you know, thank you for giving me a way that I can share a story with my child. And when we all like to sort of, you know, most people like bedtime stories and things but if the child isn't able to necessarily hear or to understand language or to process a language, then you don't get that lovely connection. But if you're doing the story through massage, still saying the words but you've got the rhythm of the strokes, which match the words, you know, the change in the speed, the change in the pressure. So if you're going to blow up a story, then that child is picking up on it and understanding it. I love the idea that Maisie sibling would have been involved as well. It's not just that adult child thing but. I mean Poppy is our story massage star. She is, I think she's 10 or 11 years old. She's just won a junior best practice award. She writes massage stories for Maisie, and it has given them the most incredible bond. When Maisie goes into hospital, Poppy will write a massage story for Maisie. Like if Maisie has a blood test, Poppy writes a beautiful story massage. She sent it in to say, well done Maisie for getting through the blood test or she will write one about how much she loves her mom for Mother's Day. There are lots and lots of different massage stories but the connection between Poppy and Maisie and that's what Sophie said. It really gives them a way to be together because sometimes it can be quite hard for a sibling to be together with a child who doesn't really move, who's on, you know, fed through the nose who really has very little reaction. But between the two of them, they've got the most amazing relationship. Oh, isn't that lovely? That's really lovely. And what's next for you then? So the camper van. Yes, well, hopefully we'd like to tour Morocco and do lots of travelling, find out stories of all the Moroccan people. Yeah, so lots of travelling. Oh no, story massage will definitely continue but I think it's been lockdown has been a lot for a lot of people. It's been quite busy and we've been giving a lot and now I think I'd like to just let other people do some of it as well and encourage others to really enjoy the flexibility of it. It's such a powerful gift that you've given to the world really in story massage. It's a really beautiful thing and it's so lovely to hear how very varied it is in its use as well. And I think it's fascinating how you've worked hard actually to keep it simple at its core and in a way it's that simplicity I think which has allowed this very wide and varied range of uses. I remember when we met a while ago, we were interviewing some people from a pupil referral unit, do you remember that? Yeah. And they were using, I thought that was fascinating with the restraint. I mean, you think like twinkle twinkle little star you might think small things but actually that was quite amazing how they were saying that when you've been restraining a child, then you feel awful and the child will feel awful too and how do you come out of that restraint. I think quite a few people now after a restraint are using story massage. So they're using a short story with some strokes to help both, you know, member of staff and child young adult to come out of that restraint so that they have a, you know, their relationship in sort of upset by the restraint. Yeah, to help with that regulation doesn't it and that yeah reinforcement of positive touch. Yeah, yeah, because it does seem to be that the, the building of relationships is really important with the story massage program and I think there's a, we do a lot of work in Glasgow. And there's a lot of people out there who say that many of the children don't really have positive role models for positive relationships and for positive touch. So it's their understanding that actually it feels good to be nice to somebody. There was a one young lad who was giving a story massage to another young lad. And the young lad who was receiving the massage at the end turn around and said, that was lovely. I really, really liked that. And the young lad who was giving it was absolutely shocked and sort of really had to take a step back. And suddenly he felt the warmth that we, we often will feel if you're nice to somebody. Yeah. And he actually said I didn't know it felt so good to be nice to somebody. And it was an experience for him that he realized how good it felt. Wow. And then in another nurture group a similar thing where they weren't weren't really kind of able to, we talk about expressing our feelings but very often we're talking about expressing our anger or our sadness or, you know, other, other difficult emotions. But these people weren't really able to these young kids weren't able to express how much they really liked somebody. So they were writing kind of compliments to other members of their group of their, their, their nurture group and sharing these as a story massage with someone, you know, I like your hair I like the way you are I like it that you're kind to me and also like happy birthday, making people feel very special within their, within their nurture group and it was they understood it as a way of sharing positive feelings about somebody. There was a story of a young girl who had young boy came in to the nurture group, really anxious rushing around absolutely couldn't sit down couldn't do anything he was really really angry. And the young girl who would only been about six or seven years old, went to him and said, What you need is a story message. He laid down on the ground we've got a photograph of it he laid down on the ground. She gave him a message. And at the end of it, he felt better and was able to sit down. And to me there's so much going on in there that she recognized it. He recognized it that he needed it that it would help. He accepted it. She gave it that bonding and that understanding is huge. I think that's a really huge life lesson. It is, it's massive, it's massive isn't it and I think creating environments where people feel able to actually give them receiving that way is powerful as well isn't it. Yeah, so then he was now able to understand how much it had helped him. And so he will, if he feels that he's going to have a meltdown if he feels he just goes up to a member of staff or he goes up to one of his peers or at home with his mom and just says, I need a massage. I need a story massage. And we have a lot of kids who, you know, kids with ADHD kids with other, you know, issues where they might well be having meltdowns, they start to recognize when it's about to happen. And then last for a story massage. And it's not only the massage, it's the story that goes with it. It's the somehow the engagement with the words of the story of familiar story, something that makes them feel comfortable. And they've written themselves, then enables a touch. So it's a sort of combination, I think that works really powerful, really powerful stuff. What, what thought would you like to close with what thought would you like everyone to go into the world with having watched or listened. I think the importance of touch, nurturing touch of kind touch, when we're able to think we've all missed it. And I think that's a very just a, you know, not a huge hugs or whatever but just a sort of gentle touch and for within schools I think to, you know, if there is a way that appropriate touch can be implemented with the importance of oxytocin, oxytocin, the importance of, you know, relationships, building relationships, think, yeah, think about it.