 Just wait for the zoom to kick on here. All right. Welcome to the House committee on government operations military affairs It is February 15th Wednesday morning, and we're here with the executive director of Vermont Democratic Party And I've asked Jim to give us his feedback on our draft miscellaneous elections bill So Jim welcome to the committee and please introduce yourself for the record and tell us what you think Yes, thank you for having me. Good morning to the members of the government operations and military affairs committee I'm Jim Dandano. I'm the executive director of the Democratic Party And we have we work to engage Vermonters in the political process at every level from municipal Town committees all the way through federal elections We have party members holding leadership positions in about half the towns in the state In cities and towns ranging from Burlington to Maidstone with robust active party organizations in every county You have my written testimony In your files, and I know how much everybody hates when people read their written testimony that they submitted So I am just going to hit a couple of the high points These are the Vermont Democratic Party's thoughts on the proposed elections bill with regard to the sore loser law Big picture stuff this this bill does a good job of streamlining information for voters The sore loser law the independent candidate filing deadline alignment And the cross nominations all help provide clearer More concise information to voters party affiliation is short-hand for folks People have a lot of stuff going on in their lives. They're very busy Oftentimes when you have a crowded election like we did in 2022 with a lot going on people don't have the bandwidth to Find out all of the information that they might like to know about their candidates for office So all of these pieces Help provide clearer information to voters the sore loser law Giving folks one bite at the apple helps narrow that information down People who run in a primary and lose Have already had the will of the voters expressed and we have open primaries It's very easy to participate in elections at every phase of the process for Vermonters And I think when the will of the voters is expressed in the primary to have to give folks who lose those primaries the opportunity To run again under a different party line helps kind of muddy the water In that information that's provided to voters they can say, you know Why is this person still on as a Republican? I already voted against them as a Democrat so Limiting it to one shot in an election really helps can narrow that focus for folks with limited bandwidth for gathering information Aligning the independent candidate filing deadline with the major party candidate filing filing deadline is Another way of making sure that voters have ample time to gather information about the candidates that are running for office It also makes it quite frankly for us It makes it easier to plan it makes it easier to understand there are still ample opportunities to fill vacant spots on the ballot Parties have the ability to nominate the candidates have the opportunity to run as writing candidates for and ballot lines after the filing deadline And it is not unheard of for it's actually fairly common for candidates to run writing campaigns in the primary and Win that party line And to kind of jump ahead in the bill I do really appreciate the The section about filing consent of candidacy form two weeks before the election if you are a serious right-wing candidate If you are a serious right-wing candidate who is running for an open ballot line You can't throw that together in two weeks for a primary and have realistic expectation of Getting enough votes to qualify anyway And if you are a serious candidate running a write-in in a contested general election Then if you are not running more than two weeks ahead of time You are not going to win that general election right if you are running in a contested race as a write-in candidate And you have a serious expectation of winning that is not something that you could throw together a week before election day win Quite frankly people have already been voting for five weeks before that right so you know the My sarcasm in the written testimony aside I do really hate having to scroll through eighty-five columns on the Excel spreadsheet to collect the results after the election But realistically speaking this is an undue burden on town clerks to have to list every single Donald Duck vote That was cast and it doesn't make it any easier for us Literally sometimes folks voting for Donald Duck. Oh, yes constantly and it's not you know And I heard yesterday's testimony some folks were saying that that's disrespectful to the will of the voters to not count every single Donald Duck voter I think the will of the voter is adequately expressed by Casting a write-in ballot when there is no write-in candidate And we don't need to force our clerks to tally up every single Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck vote in the election on the The self identified. I'm sorry the the self certification and the submission of the town and county leadership that have organized That is another piece of information that is helpful for us and helpful for voters We are entering into the delegate selection process I've been neck deep in planning for delegate selection for the 2024 national nominating convention And there's a piece in there that says that we need to Ensure that bona fide Democrats are the delegates that we send to the National Party Convention and Right now and even with even with this section Implemented into law. It is still an act of faith on the party's part Naming people as bona fide Democrats for as eligible for those delegate roles But it is another data point if someone was a Republican town chair in 2023 and They run to be a Joe Biden delegate at the Democratic National Convention As it currently stands unless that person is identifying themselves publicly as a Republican town chair We have no way of discovering that they are a member of the Republican Party and they could feasibly get elected To the National Convention as a delegate and this applies for the Republicans as well There is no way of knowing if someone was the chair of the Brandon Democrats Who then decides to run to be a really delicate, right? This would provide public information and I'm Uncomfortable with tweaks to the level of information that is provided to the Secretary of State's office if there is a privacy concern then you know town and name is probably more than enough for us to publicly identify this person Same goes for the cross-nomination process This again streamlining the information available to voters. I want to just use an example The abortion bill that the house passed last week, I believe protecting reproductive health providers and people seeking reproductive care in Vermont that bill Passed eight to four out of committee. I believe and I got a text message from the reporter saying what's the deal with This guy who voted against it. Why is he why is one of your people voting against it and I looked and that that person was Republican and had won the nomination on a right in on the Democratic line and was listed as RD and if a reporter doesn't know this then We can't reasonably expect the general public who is not Professionally invested in understanding who everybody in this building is and how they vote and what their political affiliations are It's not it's not reasonable to expect regular voters to understand that as well. So limiting cross-nomination I think helped streamline that information. I also think that The changes to the right in statute that are proposed here might also help solve some of that problem So I don't want to I don't want to lean too heavily on any one aspect of it My only flag on the demographic information Piece is that we have unfortunately seen several representatives over the last several years subject to some pretty vicious harassment and self self-identification and not mandating it helps to limit the potential for harassment but there is I think when you when you provide all of this information and create a culture of expectation around Filing this information about yourself as a candidate. There's a certain element of peer pressure that will push everybody to Feel like they need to provide that and I am concerned with Providing a bus map for harassers really if there's a way to decouple Personally identifiable information from the demographic statistics I think we would be wholeheartedly supportive of that as of right now It's something that we have some reservations about Just as a matter of protecting the folks that are willing to put themselves forward as candidates Do you think as a matter of policy Jim on that note? That you feel better about the way the demographic information was kind of made available if That just doesn't matter policy if the Secretary of State's office would make it available to you know the press and people But they didn't publish it You know just that there was that one layer where you know that your average troll on Facebook Yeah, you know had to go through one step in order to get access to be to all of the information I think it's worth figuring out how to Add that extra step to make it harder for the Facebook trolls to find those people Yeah, I'm not you guys are you guys are the experts you guys are the professionals here So I will defer to the committee's judgment I'll defer to the committee judgment on the actual mechanism for implementation, but Even if it's you know, even if it's just an aggregation, right? If the Secretary of State's office can issue totals of the self-reporting without publishing who's what You know, who's a member of which demographic group? I think makes it a Little bit harder for folks to track down who these people are Jim thanks for the information the feedback and insight I have a question about fusion candidates Do you know how many people? candidates Ran as fusions as hybrids in the last cycle, you know, whether it's a PDD P Rd not off the top of my head. I'm just curious about how like prevalent It is as a percentage of people who've identified with one party affiliation. I can dig that out I don't have that number Yep So I wanted to go back to you The town and county and state Committee members, you know that that reporting So right now Is it it's kind of It's my understanding that it's possible for somebody to be Committee member of multiple town parties because we don't really know who those folks are yes If the Heinzberg Dems Pragues and Republicans all caucus on separate days It is possible for someone to be a member of all three so for someone to caucus with all three committees You know the only real limitation is time and space your counterpart on the from the Republican Party yesterday had testified to the effect that Folks, you know kind of want to be able to volunteer and be on these volunteer committees anonymously and I'm trying to kind of understand the virtue of you know If you're somebody who goes and wants to join the committee and caucus at the town level Of keeping that that person's at least name in town. I like the idea maybe of not publishing their address But at least allowing the parties to see like these are our committee members So that there isn't that sort of you know I don't know that I would want to have somebody who's organizing in another party come over to my party Caucus as well and want to participate, right? You know, I think that in an ideal situation the town party is a part of that town's civic life, right? They are not it's not just about elections. It's about Providing you know building community. It's about making space for folks with shared values to discuss those values and to develop political power You know it up and I think part of that is Identifying who you are right part of that is standing up for your beliefs and your values and I have a tough time imagining folks who would be willing to put themselves out there and do the work of organizing a town committee Then wanting to remain anonymous, right? Because what's the point? you know if you're the member if you're a member of the the Arlington Democratic Committee You're doing that because you care about Democratic policies and democratic values and you want to help further those policy goals in Arlington Not telling people that you're a part of that committee It's not even like there's prestige involved in being a member of the town committee, right? Like what do you get from that besides the ability to talk to your friends and neighbors about what you care about? Yeah, I don't I've been baffled by the Idea that there's virtue and the anonymity of the party committee members But but that assertion I mean it does kind of tie back to the issue of harassment for Candidates from historically marginalized backgrounds, right? There is certainly there are certainly people who will harass folks based on their party affiliation but Decoupling the right like again decoupling personal information from that right if Jim dandano from is Listed as a member of the under hill Dems. There's an extra step involved in figuring out Where I live and you know finding where my family is to go harass them but there's also Verde there's also value in me Communicating that I am a member of the town's Democratic Party to friends and to like-minded People around the state Thank you So Did you Ruby yesterday's testimony from the other yeah, I watched this idea I watched So Paul Dame the GOP with this I thought on the table about a vetting process and primaries or the parties Where they could sort of identify to identify a preferred candidate, I guess okay, and then Designate that that individual or individuals with there's some kind of marker those sorts on the battle I was just curious what your thoughts on that concept might be I feel like what the Republican chair was asking for is Something that is already available to parties there is Nothing precluding the Vermont Democratic State Committee from passing a resolution saying that Representative Matt Byrong does not represent the values of the Vermont Democratic Party and Strongly encouraging Democrats voting in a primary to vote against him for example, you're a good There's nothing precluding the state party from doing that already what I think Paul is asking for is a way to mark them on the ballot which is Micromanage In to just kind of stop beating around the bush in Liam Madden's case The Republican State Committee could have said this person is not a Republican this person does not represent us And it is the will of the state Republican the Vermont State Republican Party that Liam Madden not be elected We can't do anything to prevent him from Getting your votes in our primary, but we want to communicate to our folks to you know partisan Republicans voting in this primary that he is not who we would choose and You know you can do this a lot of different ways You don't have to do it as a resolution by the state committee You can do it by having state committee members publicly endorse at a press conference right and something like that You know if you're concerned about Communicating that effectively to voters a party state committee holding a press conference to De-endorse a potential candidate in their primary is news right that is statewide news There is no way that that does not get well, you know heavy coverage. So I think it's I Think that Paul's suggestion is a little bit too much and Already kind of available to people to state parties So one of the the inherent things that we've been discussing as we've been looking at this bill And we're really just yesterday started to take testimony on it You know we put it on the table and discuss some of the ideas in it the previous week, but There's an inherent tension in Vermont's primaries between having to be totally open Both to the candidates and to the voters to sort of say you know this year I'm filing as a Democrat if I'm a candidate or I'm filing as a Republican I am voting on the Democratic ballot this primary year the progressive the next That it leads to a situation where candidates connection to the Activists the parties their platform of values if a party doesn't happen to run a candidate that's Endorsed let's say by party activists by the party committees center. We don't believe in endorsement process There's nothing stopping. I guess what I'm hearing you says there's nothing stopping the County local or state parties from endorsing candidates So for instance if there was no Democrat running on their line and there was a progressive that shared a lot of values in common There's nothing stopping even if we pass this bill the Vermont Democratic Party from saying that independent or that progressive Or even that Republican is the Democratic endorsed person Even if they only have one name on the ballot or one party on endorsement about it Yeah, there's there's nothing preventing parties from publicly supporting. They want to support and you know Logistically speaking it's in the party's best interest to kind of have a light touch in those circumstances because you have to work with Everybody after they get elected so you don't want to alienate anybody by endorsing somebody that is gonna come back to bite you But there is you know in the case of somebody who is you know The kind of person who will give his two-year-old $5,000 to donate to his campaign I feel like that's a circumstance where You know the party has a vested interest in speaking out publicly on something like that And also I just realized that I jumped over the Campaign finance piece. Can I can I circle back to that? Yeah So the reason why we support the reason why we support the unlimited transfers between State-wide candidates and the party is because that's already federal law, right a candidate for US in the example given by Paul Burns from v perk yesterday of retiring US senator wanted to Give a million dollars to a state party I would weep openly publicly if they wanted to do that because I could really use a million dollars but also there is nothing in federal law preventing that from happening whereas State-wide candidate for Secretary of State Attorney General lieutenant governor wants to Donate Wants to give us money. They are capped at the $10,000 contribution limit and where we ran into some problems with that last year is with our voter contact service Are the fee for that is $10,000 for statewide candidates? And there is some dispute amongst the legal minds that advise us through this process as to whether or not That is a good-in-service with marketable value that does not get counted towards contribution limits or whether it is a contribution so we are supportive of Expanding that donation limit so that we don't run into those kind of logistical issues One tiny suggestion on the language is maybe we want to change it from candidate to candidate committee So that there is an added layer, right? So, you know multi-million dollar multi-millionaire self-funded candidate running for Attorney General has to at least put the money into their own Committee before it gets to the party that adds a layer of disclosure To the process to make sure that it is public and open. Yeah We'll talk to Ledge Council about whether there is a real distinction given the definition of candidate in that section of the law But I think that's a good flag that what we really are talking about when we talk about a candidate There is their committee there. There isn't there isn't really even the distinction. I don't think between The individual and their committee at that. Yeah, you know once you're getting into the camp. Yeah, I will obviously defer to council on that They're they're the minds that understand this stuff better than I do But what we're trying what we're really trying to get out here is to make sure that we can provide all of the services that we want to provide to candidates running under the Democratic banner while Making sure that we're fairly compensated for that work So just to be clear with the the way it is today if if you know You have a candidate who is running for any of those statewide offices lieutenant governor or treasurer attorney general the Just they're buying access to the statewide system Data system that the part your party runs our party runs Would potentially put them over the top There is some disagreement amongst the people that are advising us as to whether whether or not that would put them over the top and Making it aligning state campaign finance law with federal campaign finance law would eliminate that confusion Any other questions for mr. Danden? Thank you so much for joining us today Jim happy to see you too All right Don't know if we have our folks who had asked for some time to talk about the emergent media program We're running a few minutes early, so if you are ready to go Robin and Sarah Yeah, do we can pull up an extra chair for you? Thank you Or So what we typically do is have folks share that with our committee assistant We look at stuff on our devices so that folks can see me just on zoom Do you have the ability to take email that to us? That'd be great Sure Let's not do that It sounds like Yeah, the only thing so I know represent Byron brought up the suggestion that mr. Dain brought up yesterday that is Not on the table But I thought that it was interesting to hear That mr. Danden out had a different opinion on that particular issue. I think that's what you're addressing. It is specifically Yeah, I would say I would not be in favor of that kind of a system like Connecticut has either I We are going to hear later this morning From the Franklin County Dems chair because I there's a specific example From the last primary that I think it'd be important for the committee to know and it's primarily why I'm so interested in this cross-party nomination question so It gets at the what we have today putting Having a totally open filing and a totally open primary system Leads to some shenanigans that I think confuse voters. That's my main thing. It's about it It's about being clear to voters about who this candidate is and which party they're affiliated with And why I think it really is possible for for folks to Get multiple endorsements from parties and there's nothing in the bill as it's presented that would preclude that where We're in a situation where a very small number of votes Can lead to us printing a party's endorsement of a candidate on the ballot today That I think it is Misleading to voters and we're gonna hear about one example So so I think you're you're getting at the values of wanting to like kind of keep the partisanship off the ballot I think we're If we proceeded with the cross-party nomination language that's in the draft language We are narrowing that to just saying you know you pick one lane you stay in your lane and that's that Which Yeah, and so that's where the enter the interplay between the two sections of the bill comes in Yeah, we should talk more about about whether it would have that effect or not. I represent a hang go Yeah, I don't want to take away from time from Champlain College, but this brings up It's really now really muddy for me I have no idea what we're trying to do with the bill because you're proposing to not have any Parties written after anybody's name on the ballot. No, I think I think representative Hooper was just rejecting the suggestion that Mr. Game yesterday about having a post primary sort of this is a real endorsement versus just just a you won in the You want to go by the voters? Yeah And you're proposing that there be a certain number of signatures required to Have dual party No, it's in the language that we've been looking at for the last couple of weeks is that you get one You just get one. You can only have one. That's what's in that language that we've looked at and so that Yeah, that's that's gonna be the crux of a lot of the testimony we're gonna hear later this morning Is about that specific? You've got a pick which part of this endorsement you want Just now something about that number that they're very few Number would Get you dual party. That's how it is today. Yeah. Yeah, that's how it is today So it's the today versus what I have in the bill what I have in the bill eliminates the confusion Which we'll get in No, no, no, we're I we're switching gears we're gonna push pause on our elections Right So would you Robin sir, please introduce yourselves and tell us why you're here today and thank you for joining us My name is Robin Perla. This is my colleague Sarah Jigger. We're both here from Champlain College to talk to you about Champlain College's impact on the creative sector and in support of the creative network who's here today Creative advocacy day, so I did send a PDF slide deck. It's mostly just pretty pictures So, you know, I won't kind of give you the sign as to what the ding as to when to move slides, but The they just are images to support what we're going to talk to you about Which is Champlain College and our role Currently in the future as a driver of innovation and creativity in Vermont For those of you who don't know Champlain is a small professionally focused private college in Burlington With approximately 1800 students in our traditional residential undergraduate programs We also have a robust online program, which we're not going to talk about today Drives from all over the country and today what we want to talk to you about is our academic programs and our experiential learning opportunities that feed the Vermont creative economy I Sarah's going to talk about the emerging media center She's the director of the emerging media center and has been at Champlain College for 15 years It's also an artist in her own right. So many of you are from Chittenden County She operates a free art gallery and as extension in her Front yard that has seen over 800 pieces of tiny art exchanged in its first year And then I'm the assistant dean of the creative studio which oversees our art design and communication programs I'm also an associate professor in the graphic design program I also am the former vice chair of the Vermont Arts Council for the trustee just season have had a 20-year career Intersecting art technology and education. So So anyways, we're going to talk first. I'll talk to you a little bit about our academic programs We have two Studios, which are sort of these academic Units that encompass our arts media and technology the person is the creative studio So the goal of the creative studio is to prepare our students for interdisciplinary creative careers and to support collaboration both in classes and their extracurricular activities between students faculty and creative industries The ease with which students can take courses in other creative majors is a differentiating factor for Champlain as is the number of minors we have that share courses across majors if those of you who have College-aged students, you know that some of the larger schools It becomes very difficult if you want to do something that's kind of not in the college that you've enrolled in With our colleges, they tend to be quite solid by discipline and Champlain is because we're small and because we're not in our college We really have the flexibility to allow our students to To become sort of Swiss Army knives of creative endeavors and professional careers Which serves them really well, especially as they start looking for jobs our current majors include So laundry lists but animation broadcast communication free media filmmaking graphic design, etc Etc. You can look at the list But many of our students go on to have careers in the creative sector in Vermont many of our students Were born and raised in Vermont and wants to stay here But also many of them come to Vermont for the skiing and stay for the community, right? So there's on the slide that you'll see a very Just a surface look at some of the Create the jobs in the creative sector that our creative students students creative studio students are involved in Including City of Burlington on logic seven generations. So North Country Bank Burton Dealer comm Scout digital 1% for the planet sugarbush talk to Harper and many many more That was a five-minute search on my LinkedIn. That's how I came up with that list And then we also have a really unique program that is really what sort of made Champlain's name in the country as an institution, which is our game studio for those of you, you don't know You'd be surprised actually in the demographic of games is not what you think actually women are the largest Middle-aged women are the largest sector in the gaming industry that being said I'm guessing most of you are not playing console AAA games like I don't know. I can't even think of one because I don't really play them myself But it is a multi multi-billion-dollar industry encompassing traditional entertainment sectors such as Blizzard and Ubisoft But also includes other things that you may not think of serious games Like al-Qili the first company with an FDA approved prescription game treatment for juvenile ADHD So your simulations with the the military or aviation and aeronautics complex. It's also used VR, I'm sure maybe some of you have heard it's been used extensively in the treatment of PTSD and other serious psychological issues Mental health issues Gimification is also used in marketing and PR, which we all know. Unfortunately, we've all been subject to marketing's attempt at gamifying things So the game studio Again is a multidisciplinary program. We have we drop from multiple divisions And they work together throughout their four years at the college to make games The game studio graduates however unlike the creative studio graduates the game studio graduate graduates often leave Burlington To find employment which when you look at the listed employment summit employers on the slide deck You'll see it's much shorter than the creative studio list That being said, we've had notable success with companies such as Game Theory, Rad Magpie and Sunday month all Launched in Burlington by champagne graduates game theory co is a woman led organization It began as an entertainment game company But as it transitioned into the serious and educational game space partnering with organizations to create games for education and research Rad Magpie also women in non-binary led is a 501c3 nonprofit doing its part This is their mission to dismantle the patriarchy and white supremacy through uplifting underrepresented video game developers Which they accomplish through education and game production Sunday month is also an indie game developer Which emerged from their their actual their senior capstone project one thing I want to note as we think about games in Vermont and retaining these graduates in the state Is that it's also been interesting for me to note that as with many other tech industries remote work for games has exploded Since the pandemic and a quick look through my LinkedIn how I do all my research Confirmed for me that many of our recent game studio graduates are living in Burlington while working remotely Across the country for triple-a game companies Montreal is less than two hours from Burlington has a thriving game industry and with our Champlain College graduates Interested in staying put to work remotely There's so much opportunity to engage and harness that creative spirit and expand on the slowly emerging Indie game industry here in Vermont So, you know as I you know as I talked about sort of as I was talking about these different programs a huge part of this professionally focused education at Champlain College is this interdisciplinary approach and this experiential approach where students are Working together Project-based learning having real world experiences in the community and one of the lynchings of how we do that at Champlain is our Centers of experience one you may have heard of is the Leahy Center for Digital Forensics and Cyber Security Another one of our that's one of our kind of most successful centers of experience, but our other most successful Center for experience is the emergent media center, which is what Sarah is going to talk to us about. Yeah, thank you So the Merchant Media Center we were founded back in 2006 and since then we've have employed over a thousand students and Completed over a hundred projects partnering with over 60 clients Some of those are very familiar from our organizations such as UBM College of Medicine ECHO down the lakefront from my agency of national resources the airport or my teddy bear King Street Center OVR technology if you've heard of them, they're based at Hula And so the EMC is a creative studio primarily focused on applied research and experimentation So we're using novel applications of emerging technologies immersive media and human-centered design processes To design creative solutions brought to us by community partners So these applied research areas may include things like serious games which Robin had mentioned and simulation embodied systems augmented reality virtual reality mixed reality all the all the realities mobile apps Assistive and adaptive technologies physical computing just to name a few. There's there's just so much that we can do Research and development areas are really determined by the grant opportunities or others partnership sponsorship opportunity As well as originating from different faculty interest areas and their expertise So in addition to doing that technological exploration We are always looking at how we can address the wicked problems If you're familiar with that phrase in a design for good model How can we use media technology and design to do good things in the world and cause positive impact? So we might be looking at research areas determined by the technology itself Or we might be looking at the societal problem-needing creative solutions So the work that we do falls into three categories. We have studio projects at the EMC We have our Champlain maker program, which is in partnership with generator and we do design thinking consultation services for companies So we are student driven. We offer paid professional experiences for our students from all majors across the college They conceptualize prototype and produce that wide range of media which I talked about to solve those problems And when we say emergent we're talking about new and up-and-coming technologies But also using existing technologies in really new and interesting ways so The the teams consist of students with both technical and creative skills They're working really collaboratively together To explore produce this really cool cutting-edge work with the work of the future of the work that we need and They're applying enhancing and expanding on what they're learning in the classroom and Practicing it with a real-world project in a very cross-disciplinary way like they will in the professional workplace So it's a paid job outside of their academics and it's a stepping stone for them out into the professional workplace For our partners who we call our clients They are getting the creative and beginner's minds of these students and their technical know-how to solve some of these really big challenges and We offer our reassurance to both our partners and our students that all of the work is supported by our team of professional Staff and faculty. We don't just throw the students out there to go willy-nilly and do what they want They have this guidance and support so a couple of the examples, which I'll just highlight for you Of a long list of examples You will be able to see the the moving gifts on these screens, but a couple of recent projects that we worked on were with beta technologies And with Vermont Symphony Orchestra Sure, we're all likely familiar with beta the renowned electro aerospace manufacturer here So they're cutting-edge technology is really incredible and it can also be very hard for people to understand if they're not familiar with the science and Engineering behind it. So to help ease this challenge We partnered with beta and our students created an animated game prototype to really help visitors to beta Learn how their aircraft works in a very accessible way We also just recently completed year one of a three-year partnership with the Vermont Symphony Orchestra In an effort to appeal to younger audiences VSO came to us and wanted our students to create a visual media experience that would enhance an accompanying the orchestra performances and So this year our students created short experimental films which were projected behind the Vermont Symphony and Vermont Orchestra at the Flynn and next year We're going to be working on motion graphics and projection mapping that will break outside of the rectangular box of the screen and Look at putting projections onto architectural elements inside So Awesome stuff We're also Working we've just established our 20 20 or 20 30 strategic plan. We have a new president We're working closely with Burlington on the plans for the innovation hub in the south end with the champagne connector Kind of dumping right on so lakeside Avenue, which is where we have our small lakeside campus Media Center is so we're looking at what's next and how to grow and these relationships both to expand our our creative degree offerings and then also to continue to expand our partnerships with the creative community in Burlington and throughout Vermont so Thank you for your time. We appreciate it. Yeah, I know we're sort of at time But if anybody has any quick questions I hope these are Two things, please So my daughter son-in-law graduates of Linden State College. I know that they would take my head if they were to call it My university But they both He was in the weather arena and she was in the animation Do you all partner with them in any way shit because I'd like seeing the smaller schools having that Impact, you know, I mean is that I just curious We have an apparently we've done You know the in the creative studio will have portfolio days that are open to all college students from It's been a from Vermont. We would get a lot from NBU as well as from Champlain and UDM We also look at Through went through grants a lot of the NSF grants the larger grants are Require collaboration, especially when you're looking at sort of grants that are geared towards rural communities So the epscore grants those require collaboration between different institutions I don't know that, you know, and we're in the college is in an epscore process being run by UDM The application process and so we've got several small colleges But I don't know that one of them is NBU, but I love that I I mean It's a great curiosity and it's something Yes, and I love I think we'd all love to see NBU you stay here It's a hard, you know, the you know, as you may or may not know You know, there's been a population cliff in the Northeast And so we've seen a lot of colleges closing over the past, you know, five years and there will be more And so we have to really think As to how we can stay And my second thing real quick was I don't think you touched on it But it may not be your piece of the five. Yeah, the forensic lab that they have that y'all had at Champlain Yeah, I'm retired from the guard. I know we use them for reasons. I can't get into you're probably aware of some of those things Yeah Is that did you all touch on that at all with any of your work certain way? I mean we share some admin is we have some administrative support And so we kind of work as colleagues and collaborators in that way But our our missions are quite different this creative. Yes. Yeah, and so and then again this You know, we were invited to come here as part of the Vermont creative network to really think about the impact of of Champlain on the creative sector and then Arguably, I mean, I guess cyber security is actually pretty creative in terms Problem-solving, but maybe not as visually Yes, and that's a major part of our strategic plan moving forward. Thank you. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here today I think you particularly landed here and advocates you're working with because of our jurisdictional Interest in information technology and it's good to know about these resources that are kind of on the Way out on the bleeding edge of some of the the creative work You know, I didn't get quite enough time to go into detail about some of our plans in Kind of this innovation hub that's sort of bubbling up in in the south end of Vermont But keep an eye on that as we think about sort of these new technologies, you know in terms of immersive media Our hope is to be able to put a major investment in that area in the next few years So I had whispered to represented by wrong only half jokingly when you were talking about the the beta Software that you had developed about doing a field trip. So yes We'll be in touch Thank you very much, and I believe this is some information for you guys about the Vermont creative network And the work they're doing I can leave this here for you and also there in the card room all day If you have other questions for them, they'd love to have you represent the hang-o before So how does this fit into our portfolio so we have been asked since I Generally and there are people who are visiting the state house on different days where it doesn't fit into the specific bills of policy Work that we're doing right now, but I got a request to Give a little bit of time to folks who are visiting the state house in our committee to tell us about what they're doing And so I was okay, so similar to like Somebody else's coming in rights and democracies coming in now. Yes. Thank exactly. So this is a little bit of a pause for this hour From our work specifically on the bills that we have to welcome people who are visiting the state house today to tell us about their priorities So sorry, I didn't if I didn't frame that up Well, we are kind of going on going on a couple of tangents here because folks happen to be the state house today great Thank you, so with that I would like to invite up folks from rad believe talk about your you're you're leading the delegation today, and yeah, so We'll we'll take about 15 minutes with you all take a break and then get back on testimony about our elections bill Well, thank you, chair McCarthy and members of House give ups committee welcome you all today My name is Tom Proctor and the housing justice organizer for rights and democracy in Vermont Before I begin I wish to share land acknowledgement with the committee Democracy acknowledges the McGeagan in Southern Vermont and the abanaki people as traditional land caretakers in Endonica Which include parts of Vermont and Hampshire New England in Quebec as guests on unseeded territory of the McGeagan and abanaki people We honor their ancestors elders and relations past present and emerging We also acknowledge that our nation's benefited from the uncompensated and exploited labor represented in the legacy of slavery in the present-day reality of my grandfather workers Thank you Right and democracy which we call rad for short and our sibling organization the rights of democracy institute were founded in 2015 on the theory of change that takes people power year after year to make the kind of big old Long-term changes we want to see in this country Our members are from all walks of life intergenerational multicultural activist organizers But most importantly passionate fighters for true social justice a meaningful change in our communities and across the state Our current systems are rooted in historic oppressions deeply dysfunctional and fragile when those fragile systems break Vermonters who have been systemically kept out of place for power are those most impacted abanaki indigenous persons racial and ethnic minority ethnic minorities Lgbtp Individuals with disabilities senior citizens new americans youth poor Other people would carry the weight of policies and the system's gone wrong These individuals are nearly 80 percent of Vermont, but voting population And are the least represented in our state government and it are in some cases wholly invisible to those who enact policies Our mission is to bring people together to take action to build health communities and make the values of our communities guide policies of our government We believe we can achieve a society where people earn a living wage and have access to affordable health care Where progressive next book tax systems supports an economy that protects the environment and human rights Is our pleasure to testify to you today and share the visions for more just and vibrant Vermont I'll kick off by sharing with you with our 2023 platform Vermont must do its part to ensure a just transition to a clean energy future that might date renewable energy and then to rely on some dirty clean fossil fuels And we was guaranteed that everybody's benefits, especially from what has to be most impacted by passing current harms That's why this year we're supporting a passage of s5 the affordable heat act while still calling for greater equity provisions within the bill We are also supporting efforts to reform renewable energy standard and ensure that one can get It's the 30 percent state renewal energy and 30 percent regional renewable energy in the next decade In state renewable energy is the key to our state resiliency and help build a degree economy that promote communities need And doesn't shift the climate version third in our our energies to other states We are also supporting h5 6 the rate payer protection and thermal energy network act This bill in house environment and energy would extend electric rate payer protections to more of montas Adds a proven solution into Vermont's energy choices by creating a pathway for geothermal and moves Vermont away from combusting fuels by prohibiting gas expansion and new service territories Okay, my part Vermont is in a housing crisis So we all know this this means there isn't enough affordable housing for months for montas The many montas are forced to live in expensive and safe places Tenants who bring concerns by their living conditions to the landlord also have to worry about eviction and homelessness We need housing for all That's why we need to work both and create into affordable housing by provisions in the senate housing ominulous bill And we also need to protect tenants rights And in fact create new tenants rights The housing ominulous bill includes many needed zoning Act 250 and housing discrimination changes that we support and hope that the bill will pass the House of Senate To meet the needs of tenants in Vermont, we must also pass statewide just cause eviction Municipal just cause eviction charter changes that have been democrat and municipal just cause eviction charter changes that have been democratically approved by local voters And we'll come to this committee in the past in those local areas Allegiant eviction programs and cap for the amount of rent increases that tenants have to bear Last year legislature passed bellington's city charter change for just cause eviction for the governor vetoed the bill We need to build off that 99 votes that house got in the veto override and pass that bill this year We also need to act swiftly on any further jcu charter changes that make their way to this committee this year Thousands of Vermont tenants account for money to grant them the tenant protections they have specifically voted for We also need to ensure that Vermont has all the data it needs to accurately track our rental market including where the units are Who owns them the accountability of the unit unit and other person information Without this basic information we'll always be behind understanding the true rental crisis And it's a limit and it limits our ability to take action for Vermont renters To achieve a food system in Vermont we must create equitable access to land farming and food We are glad to see the passage of universal school meals in 2022 But it's time to find a permanent funding solution to ensure that all the month's children Get get the healthy meals they need without the stigma The land access opportunity board is an equity board created by legislature in the left biennium and is housed in the Vermont housing and conservation board The coming weeks this board will release a report and recommendations that the legislature should consider and take action on But what we need to do now what we need to know now is that the board will need continued funding to do its work That means fiscal year 2024 budget adjustment of one million dollars This will also allow the board to formalize its procedures and set itself up for long-term work that is needed and creating great access and opportunities for those for Monters that have been historically left out Workers in Vermont retail restaurant agriculture and other service industry play deeply vital roles in our community Yet these workers are often underpaid and under protected in their workplaces To thrive all workers need a fair and dignified wages for benefits and strong legal protections The sub minimum wage a direct legacy of slavery Particularly impact women and the disproportionately women of color It's time to end the sub minimum wage who has won fair wage for all the Monters We also need to pass the BT pro act the strength and work with rights When it comes to public education We have a long way to go to make all four months schools extable and worth the payment to all students And to remove police from schools make anti-discrimination policies that more accessible and develop education funding system Is equitable as possible by implementing the recommendations of the income-based education tax study committee What is also known as a leader for voting rights and democracy and we need to continue that leadership by implementing a system of Ranked choice voting for the presidential primaries and then for all elections Ranked choice voting gives more access to more candidates and gives voters real choice to the ballot box We must also create a state legislature that everyone can take part in this means Greatly increasing the salary and benefits for our state legislative legislators And also the per deals those appointed to state boards and committees The last crisis I will speak to is certainly from the least the overdose crisis For what has become a leader in the deadliness of the overdose crisis legislature last year passed many important provisions That were undone by governor's veto this year We must pass permanent group in orphan decriminalization Personal use create overdose prevention sites make accessible community-based syringe services to all promoters Create a mobile methadone clinic pilot program and expand treatment education for first responders This means supporting h72 and h222 It is important we live the voices of people today. I'm joined by some of our amazing leaders Today two dozen individuals are speaking their truth in the committee throughout the legislature So joining me A rights and democracy supporters and allies Anne Zimmerman to speak on her efforts organizing around the Brasselbrog just caused a victim Madeleine Heller to speak on her experience engaging with tenants across Vermont And Bridget Mienke to speak on her eviction experience and the effort she's contributed towards a new speechless cause vision campaign The first speaker today is Anne So I just want to frame things up. Welcome. Please please take the witness chair. I Um We have a very limited time this morning because we're working on a number of bills So I just wanted to make sure um since we've We've budgeted 15 minutes for this that that we if everybody can kind of take a couple minutes and introduce these ideas to us We really do want to hear from folks I also have to give the committee a break and we have the lieutenant governor coming in at 10 15 So once we get into some of these issues happy to have folks back if if we're taking up bills on these matters So sorry that we're crunched for time this morning So I'm Anne Zimmerman as Tom said, um, I live down in Guilford, which is in the Brasselbrog area in the context I am a renter I am someone who raised two kids in southern Vermont rental housing market as a low-income single parent and housing was during the time I was raising my kids the single biggest stressor in my life and to Pretty good extent continues to be even though my kids are grown into longer dependents Um, and I'm pretty sure you're well aware that we are in a housing crisis So particularly in the rental market, so I know I'm not trying to drive that particular point home I'm here to speak about why we need to end No-cause eviction and make just cause eviction into the law and at the very least This body needs to approve local charter changes where they are passed by the voters as might happen in Brasselbrog I want to put a human face on the crisis of no-cause eviction by speaking to the situation down in the Brasselbrog market My friend de Maris and a group of her fellow tenants who reside or recently resided at a housing complex In west Brasselbrog known as west brocourt. You may have read about there's been some recent coverage But I don't believe it's unique by any means de Maris and a few of her neighbors who I've gotten to know recently Had created a community of neighbors who've gardened and barbecued together and who generally looked out for each other Especially since a number of them had disabilities and were aging or had other life challenges They had created a pretty nice situation and felt as though they were good tenants who paid their rent and didn't cause any trouble And last October de Maris and at least a dozen possibly as many as 20 residents of west brocourt received notices that their leases would not be renewed No cause was given and they had either 60 or 90 days to move out and we're supposed to move out in the middle of winter no less The majority of those who got the notice of lease non-renewal were handicapped in some way our elderly or low income And a common thread seems to be that most if not all run some kind of housing assistance The complex had been sold recently to a private equity corporation and it seems the new owners didn't want to deal with any of that Um others in the complex who were offered a new lease saw their rent go up Exorbitantly and also had to cuff up more money for a new um deposit to you know higher deposit And of course that caused immediate distress because of the extreme difficulty of finding housing right now in Brasselbrog area Let alone anything affordable Um just for example de maris's neighbor matt who um needs to be in handicapped accessible unit Is facing major surgery that will put him in a wheelchair It's been not put off a bunch of times because of covet and he can barely walk at the moment So let alone pick up and move Another former neighbor is a single mother with a daughter in high school and she was unable to find housing nearby So she was forced to take something in key new hampshire while her daughter Stay behind in this couch surfing so she can finish the school year Um, so I don't actually have a hard time imagining that situation being replicated around town I think that it probably happens in a number of families So this is breaking up a community as well as separating a family the mares herself is in her 70s and has parkinsons She also needs a first floor unit and she was forced to stop working during the pandemic because of her added vulnerability And what I know that she would like you to know she said very specifically to me She wants you to know how much trauma comes from finding out you have 60 or 90 days to move while trying to survive On a low income in this housing market. There is pretty much nowhere to go So I realize that you don't govern by anecdote There are so many stories from down where I live that it's important to me that these people are real to you A pretty good friend of mine Has been couch surfing for months when she was told she needed to vacate her apartment Because it was for sale So she vacated her apartment and um rather than the building being sold another tenant moved in paying higher rent And you know, at least she doesn't have kids But I remember when selling a building, you know It was a selling point if the building was fully rented to tenants And that is no longer true people are told that they have to move just so that the rent can be jacked up by the new owners Or maybe even by the same owner because oh by the way, they didn't sell it after all um And I'll just add that I realized that all of these folks are victims of a housing crisis that is driven by a lot of forces Some of which need more sweeping solutions And no one who is advocating for just cause eviction thinks that this basic tenant protection is any kind of panacea For all of our housing problems But this is something that can be done to alleviate some of the considerable stress of folks who are otherwise In a precarious housing situation which renting is almost by definition and give more stability to families and communities And I have certainly felt that acute stress myself worrying about not being able to find a place to live And if you have never experienced that particular terror as a parent, I assure you there is nothing to play by this um So to me here is the crux of the matter one of the vacated apartments in westbrook that had been rented for 10 50 I recently saw advertised for 1700. It's very modest. There's nothing special That is out of range of someone perceiving housing assistance So you can see why the new corporate owner would want to remove people in order to jack up the rent Most people I know could not afford that rent It is out of step with the reality of local wages Although perhaps it may seem more normal for people who are moving into the area from other markets And these are also apartments that are um in need of repair Um, you know, they don't seem to be happening those repairs It would appear that the goal is to make a lot of money very quickly not to invest in long-term quality housing Just cause eviction would protect renters in places like that We pay the rent and haven't done anything wrong from having to be in a constant state of worry over losing their housing And we will all be better for that when um, you know, there's less constant turnover And I will just finish by saying that I have listened to argument after argument from some of the smaller landlords Who aren't part of that new corporate model who complain that this is the only way they can remove the quote-unquote problem tenants They insist that they only want to get rid of the bad ones and should not have to renew a lease To destructive or dirty tenants or maybe even the other tenants are complaining about them And I would say I don't have time to speak to everything that's wrong with that assumption But I would submit that there is a system of checks and balances In place whereby those committing violations of health and safety Excessive noise illegal activity non-payment of rent or other lease violations can be removed And when there is an inherent imbalance in the power relationship as there is between landlord and tenant The habs and have nots if you will It involves something as basic of keeping a roof over once had we absolutely Need to keep to that system of checks and balances rather than maintain the shortcut That is no cause eviction. So I'm asking you that if you believe Housing is a human right and I hope that we agree that housing is a human right That you will legislate in support of just cause eviction And thank you so much for your time and letting me Go on. Thanks for being here today Would you like Madeline to go Madeline I think you're with us via zoom We're running a little over. So I just want to uh try to keep the comments brief And as we and like I said as we dig in the specific issues as they come before us. I'm happy to have folks back Good morning, chair McCarthy. Um, I will try to keep this brief and thank you all for having us today and listening to these stories. Um As mentioned, I'm Madeline Hiller. I'm a resident of woodstock and I'm currently a senior environmental policy major at Middlebury college This past semester I had the opportunity to work with rad To combat the split incentive issue by creating a policy proposal that would incentivize Vermont landlords To weatherize their units with no further financial burden on tenants However, while doing this research, my peers and I realized that there are two key steps that must be taken before implementing a weatherization policy And so first we Really need to pass a statewide rental registry And a just cause eviction standard as Ann mentioned Establishing the rental registry is important because it creates built-in accountability for property managers and landlords Plus gives lawmakers such as yourselves better insight into the reality of the housing crisis in Vermont And the just cause eviction standard protects tenants from unfair and retaliatory evictions As it requires landlords and property managers to have a legally allowable reason to evict tenants Additionally, just cause eviction measures also protect good landlords from bad tenants So with just cause eviction landlords can still evict for non-payment branch of the breach of lease or breaking of tenant obligations um And I just wanted to reiterate that you all be receiving any just cause eviction charter changes that pass in March As Tom mentioned and we'll also be working with the Burlington just cause eviction charter change in the near future um So without tenant protections almost 30 percent of remonters live in fear that at any moment They're a landlord can arbitrarily evict them And just cause eviction standards will allow tenants not to be fearful to report code violations or landlord harassment Because they know that they will be able to stay in their home and not be evicted at the end of their lease um, I recently had the Privilege to speak with a tenant in the Burlington area Who had to couchsurf for one year And after being forced to move from their home and live day to day not knowing where they may sleep the next day This tenant felt very stressed and disorganized She felt that she could not be fully present at her job Could not focus on her relationships and did not have time to take care of herself um When she ultimately found an apartment she was afraid of pushing too hard for the property manager to do the right thing Because she did not want to be evicted for simply asking for an infrastructure or utility fix um She also felt uncomfortable addressing these issues out of fear of experiencing the anxieties that couch surfing had added to her life The previous year So for other tenants experiencing the same reality Unjust evictions could lead them to losing their jobs leaving their community splitting up their family Moving to a different state or even becoming homeless And the desperation of needing a roof over your head Should not override having a quality living situation having a quality living situation should be And is a fundamental human right And with just cause eviction standards tenants will not have to fear the power dynamic between themselves and their landlord Instead they will be empowered to advocate for themselves and address whatever issues there may be with their living situation Finally, I'd like to finish up with a story a recent eviction that happened in Brattleboro Just two weeks ago a resident of Brattleboro and her family were evicted from their home And this was during that cold snap that we had with negative 30 degree wind chills um So the landlord had shown up unannounced in 2022 um To the home and decided that the house was too messy and that the tenants were not abiding by the contract um So in vermont a landlord must give 48 hours notice before going to inspect a property And this landlord decided to evict the family after She broke the law by arriving to inspect this house without prior notice So when they got the eviction notice the tenant immediately began searching for housing And had been looking since august of 2022 However, due to the lack of affordable housing for families in the Brattleboro area They could not find anything that would accommodate them So the tenant her husband and their children who are seven and three years old Are now living in a motel until they can secure another place to live Um throughout the eviction process her only hope has been to have a roof over her head Somewhere she can properly raise her children and build a true home So I'm asking you all to really take these stories into consideration and It is clear that this is not the only family that is going through this A tenant in burlington is definitely not the only tenant who has had to couchsurf in that area Or be stressed about when they can find new long-term housing. So I urge you all to seriously consider this new legislation and help these people who Should have a roof over their head and deserve to have a roof over their head. Thank you Thanks for being with us Madeline. Um, so it's Bridget the last one. Yes, that's one. Okay, great Bridget, sorry that I just want to reiterate that we're we're way way over the time today. So, um Happy to have having you back. But if you want to give us some brief comments, that'd be really great Thanks for being here today. Thank you. Good morning. This will take about two minutes And that should bring us right to our 15 minutes that we were allotted I'm here today to talk about my support for just cause eviction As of remonter who works in affordable housing who has been campaigning and when you ski knocking on doors talking to Renters and homeowners. There's a lot of support out there for just cause eviction People want to see it become policy Um, I am someone who's been personally impacted by no cause eviction Last year my husband and I received a notice that we are being no cause evicted from our rental The notice stated we had 30 days to vacate and offered no explanation whatsoever Let me be clear. We were rule following rent paying tenants We were not problem tenants And the motivation was an egregious rent increase It's painful for me to even talk about the months that followed the eviction and going through a no cause eviction is destabilizing and traumatic We went from being a happy active family to being completely stressed out and anxious overnight It impacted our mental health our work and literally every aspect of our lives My husband and I weren't even sure if we were going to be able to stay in vermont When we were going through our no cause eviction There's so little housing available and i'm not just talking about affordable housing. I'm talking about any housing Finding suitable housing for a family afford takes time and it's not something people can reasonably do in 30 days We were just completely unprepared for anything like that to happen Just cause eviction policy would have been a safeguard for my family It would have protected us from the undue stress and hardship of facing an unjust eviction Nothing could have prepared me for the idea that one day apropos of nothing. I would get a 30 day eviction notice There's no reason for that. It's senseless. And yet it's a common practice in vermont We need to do better My children are eight and 10 years old and it was impossible for my husband and I to hide our stress from them So we didn't we talked to them about what was going on And we taught them that everyone deserves a decent place to live and that housing is a human right So my children also have a message for you today They would like you to please support just cause eviction so that nobody has to go through something as unfair as no cause eviction now We're homeowners now. Thanks in large part to a VA loan But the last thing I want to do is close the door on my way in My family did not become homeless, but others will not be so fortunate Vermonters need tenant protection laws And vermont renters deserve safe and stable housing They do not deserve to lose their housing in arbitrary retaliatory and discriminatory evictions Thank you Thanks for being with us Bridget So we don't have a bill before us yet on specific housing issues this committee did hear and pass A charter change related to this last biennium and I anticipate we will probably Have some policy around Just about eviction That we'll have to discuss This year so I appreciate this kind of preview into what some of the issues are Because it is very serious and I don't want the limited time that we have this morning to Be an indication of the seriousness with which we take that testimony. I really want to appreciate The folks who came for the rad lobby day today We're thankful to have members and people from the community Come and test it testify here in house kabob. So Thank you all for being here and sorry that we're so crunched for time with our bills now But I imagine we'll be taking up these issues later in the session With that, I think what we're going to do is I've shuffled a little bit of the testimony around I think so that we can hear from the lieutenant governor on our elections bill And then we'll take a quick break before we dive into the last couple of people We're going to have testifying before lunch. So just wanted to give the committee that heads up That I won't be keeping you solid through noon. Maybe no we're a little over time Andrew is working her magic with me over here to Get us back on track. So I want to welcome lieutenant governor zuckerman here today. They'll talk about The drafting a salooning selections bill that we have before us Thank you so much for being with us lieutenant governor Thank you, mr. Chairman and committee as jurisdiction. I appreciate it and Hello to a few of you that kind of quite had the chance to meet but I think I have The opportunity to say hello in many of you and some of you have known for a number of years I want to first stress the importance of this conversation. I really appreciate that you're having it The folks from across the political spectrum across the issue spectrum greatly Are impacted by How our election system works The choices that they have The systems that I wish to get information and of course who is then elected and sits at these uh esteemed tables Determining the outcome of issues that many many people care about on the housing economic issues climate racial gender inequities Small business rules development the list obviously goes on wrong. So this conversation is critical. Thank you At the end The foundation of it all is the elections the rules that we play by and the financing systems Greatly impact the choices people have And the impact they have for their voice their views to be represented here So I think I just present that as as the scale of weight of what you're deciding. I think it's quite tremendous For getting to details I will say that overarching with many of these changes and I think there are some provisions in the proposal that are good many of these provisions actually consolidate party power And reduce transparency and reduce options for voters And I think that's the wrong way to go I'll go through in the order of the different sections because that's easiest and I will Shorten this and get us to many to you in writing before the end of the day First would be the quote sore loser provision What is the problem that is attempting to being solved and it may be That I've missed some instances where a spoiler situation is created when someone lost a primary or ran as an eye or another party but is the Potential ramifications of this going to create more problems than it will solve So in doing our research and my own memory over 26 odd years, but my memory is not perfect over all that time I know of one situation where a candidate ran a democratic primary in an attempt as many do To reduce the three-way conundrum in the general election Which then creates the spoiler problem from the sore loser problem They felt that in the primary the scales were tipped against them. I think you're a technical narrow this morning That parties can already do that if they want either subtly quietly, which sometimes happens or more blatant party can say We want these two and not that one or this one and not that one So that can already happen, but it happens rather rarely in that particular instance They weren't invited to some of the house parties that were meet the candidates in our primary So they felt unfairly weighed against them on the top of the balance With that they lost the primary they ran in the general election and a republican This would be an example of in the mollipkown. I believe six maybe eight years ago I did a little research back the testimony yesterday represented marike mentioned this happening in his district, I think We talked about it after the meeting late 2008 was what Was it looked like it was so with that in mind Going back to 2008 which is 16 years Or 15 16 years eight election cycles In my digging around I found three instances There may be more but let's that's what I found and I tend to pay a fair amount of attention to elections so three instances out of eight election cycles 180 seats That's 1,440 seats with three instances So this problem has occurred point two percent of the time If I've missed three and double it that's point four percent of the time Hold that in your mind for a minute to think about what would happen If folks felt like the sore loser provision was removed If the sore loser provision is removed And someone says well, I could work to be cross-partisan to reduce this spoiler problem And run in one primary and try to get a writing in another And I'll tie that in later Then what happens Are they going to choose to run in that primary where they feel they're already going to be pushed out If there's laws of winning either through the money primary or through the local district efforts In which case why wouldn't they just run in a general election feeling they'd actually have a better Chance at reaching more voters How many more spoiler problems would be created by that? Considering Vermont has a more robust third party and more robust independent than last term in our five I think it's been as many as seven independence and almost any other state Um, is that What you want to create? I'm not sure that's really what the voters have done Um With that, uh made my point there, uh independence filing before the primary Uh, I think there's a reason why independence would get up to three days or five days I can't remember exactly what it is to file after a primary In a primary election cycle Uh, it may it may turn out that folks think someone's going to run then they don't and so suddenly there's only One party with a candidate on the general election ballot Well, there's a lot of folks that might think differently that would say well, wait a minute Let's all get behind this other individual as an independent so that we don't have this Fringe right or fringe left person as the only option they have Uh, but secondly, what if there are multiple contested primaries and the winners of those primaries are both Fringe or all three primaries are fringe In some way or another or extreme or use whatever Choice word is apropos in today's political environment What if the number of people in communities thought well, wait a minute There's nobody that really covers The both of them are a lot of people in our town think or a district think And they say wait a minute. Let's get someone to run Or let's get someone to run for sheriff When you learn of something that happens after the filing deadline is passed This is an opportunity for communities to do that So I think it's important to allow for independence to file after a primary Although again, I don't have uh, the numbers I didn't have time to research Maybe you have but I would hope before you change that you look at how often does that really happen? And what are the consequences better? It's so terrible that they weren't a change or is this allowance value I as someone who's long advocated for campaign finance reform I think unlimited campaign contributions to a party is just a step in the wrong direction I can tell you how hard it is for month or the hardest states to raise money Both for candidates and for parties On the other hand, I think we've had fairly successful elections. We've had people be able to get their message out I don't think we need to have huge quantities of money to reach Most people in the scale districts that you're all running in and even statewide I think having Grassroots networks and developing those networks parties or networks organizations and networks You can reach people with your message. I don't think Removing campaign finance Limitations is a good idea if anything. I think there's areas to strain to that Before you move on uh, lieutenant governor. I'm sorry to interrupt you Did you hear the testimony this morning from mr. Dan and oh from the Vermont Democratic Party about how The current that current limitation Makes it so that a candidate who wants to for instance buy into the Democratic Party is a voter network It may already just by virtue of the limit that we have right now Not able to to do that if they're statewide candidate or as federal candidates for congress and senate I already have the ability to Give money to their own party in that way As someone who has run in the primary. I've never heard that As a candidate we were limited Due to campaign finance from having access to ngp van for instance I believe the paris for statewide candidate was actually $12,500. I heard something about 10,000 earlier But I was unsure what that was yeah, the current limit is $10,000 So a statewide candidate can only give 10,000 can only give 10,000 dollars party So do you want to go into how that Functions and how that works. Do you want to expose that at the moment or do you rather not? So we we talked about it in committee already Is that it basically forces people to have PACs that then do an end run around that campaign finance limit So the the desire here just I just want to be really clear that the characterization that were You know somehow going backwards in terms of transparency and accountability That we're actually trying in this committee with that language to consider something that would Recognize the reality of our election system in a post citizen's united world Right, so I appreciate that and and I will think about other ways to do that My understanding is the way that it generally happens is that candidates call people that may have maxed out to the candidate To then ask them to donate to the party for five or up to 10,000 dollars In fact, I think in some parties they can do that twice because some parties have a federal fund and a state fund So it already the system already has quite a venue for people to donate too much money That also just exposes old topic of candidates are sometimes considered stronger if they can raise more money for the party than another candidate and sometimes that leads to preference by some people within the parties as to Which candidate they want to get behind because they can raise more money for the party Which is an interesting broader conversation in terms of what's the role of a party? What do parties stand for is it about raising more money and therefore who has more power in the system? Or is it about really articulating positions on issues or some of both? I don't think it's actually a binary choice Which actually I think binary choices as a whole is what we're trying to move away from And that's where some of these provisions maybe limit that But I do appreciate that and I will think about if there's another way to do it Then opening the floodgates for and I think the earlier witness Testified this that well, what's the disincentive to get two or three millionaires to run for office to then? Give the party hundred fifty thousand dollars each Just so they could just be on the ballot even though they're not really running for office One could do that through the primary donated a ton of money. I mean there's there's doors that get open, but And I appreciate the the response of the chuckle, but Given how Important money is an election these days. I could see A couple people thinking craftily. Oh, we could do this through expiry and then they can drop out I've given all that money so I I think it's worth exploring. I just don't know that this is the solution. So I appreciate the effort and I I appreciate the topic Town and county party committees filing of the secretary of state. I think it's an interesting idea. I'm not necessarily Terribly forward or terribly against it. I could just say that in my town of 5 000 people Most folks who are engaged in politics kind of know who the active people are at all the different parties and I think there are other folks who are more quietly involved They might run a business in town or have relationships with a lot of people across different perspectives and may or may not want to be singled out suddenly as someone in this day and age and politics because Matt, mr. Byron is a democrat. I'm not going to go to his restaurant anymore And we should boycott his restaurant. No, that's free choice and economic choices anybody can make Um And obviously as a candidate you're declared. So you're a bad example in that way, but since you were used as an example earlier I thought I'd just hide long The idea of that is like, you know, I actually had um encountered instances where my political engagement and activity is a rep in a democratic I have people verbally tell me that they won't boycott my business as a result That's the world we live in it is but I think for folks who are putting this It's hard enough that people run for office, right and and We have to put out our labels and take positions on issues and we choose to that sometimes up tech people and that's part of good discourse But do we want to Have everybody the 12 or 15 people or three people in a local talent committee? Face those potential repercussions as well. Have we gotten to that world around the country? I think much much more so than here But I've seen a creek in over 25 years in different ways that I think is really Unfortunate. Um, so I I don't think this is necessarily a bad idea. I just think that's something to think about in this process I just want to ask you that I'm following that to a logical conclusion I mean, so if people who stand to be on a committee should be anonymous because that's really what what we're saying is that That that we're that we're trying to protect people and I can understand The suggestion that was made this morning about, you know, not publishing the addresses of every single person who attends a caucus But if you're going to stand up, you're you're an officer You're a person who's voting you have power to nominate candidates for office Like that's a key part of our grassroots democracy and local elections We wouldn't allow somebody who is like serving as a justice of the peace for instance to be anonymous in their role So that that's what's been interesting to me about the status quo For these committees is that you essentially can be a part of multiple committees because there's no way to To check whether people are actually Organizing with one party or the other and it's a really key part of how you nominate candidates and there is power in those local committee members Yeah, I think that's an interesting dilemma. You know on the one hand we have to remember parties are not public entities They are actually private entities or private clubs that people choose to join or not And she's participated in just like any other organizing activity They have to be private clubs that have notifications in our elections as far as the nominating aspect Anybody can file a petition with a ballot under any party they want. They don't have to be nominated by a party The only time that the party is typically nominating in an official sense is sometimes after a primary if there's nobody else They will the district committee whatever that happens to be will Gather to make that nomination one would think That again in a local community or a local district or even an abrogated statewide committee The process itself pretty well marginalizes the one person or the odd person out there who's got a Rather different political perspective than the organization of the claim to be part So the impact I think is pretty small, but again, I'm not opposed to it I think it's you're thinking about really good things and asking a good question And I'm just sorry I have one more piece to think about but that doesn't I'm not gonna You know stick my teeth into that as the deal and I know I can guarantee you that the there are two other provisions the fusion provision The three provisions the fusion provisions the independent filing after the primary is over provision And the sole quote sore loser provision would be the three that I'm probably most concerned about in terms of transparency and opportunity for voters and candidates So let's go to the cross-party slash fusion situation I believe I know Representative Byron you Asked the democratic party witness earlier today if he knew how many my understanding was that yesterday the progressive party person indicated that a camera he said 60 log and 70 ran 61. I don't remember exactly, but I suspect it's in his testimony So that's that he may or may not have handed it out, but But I think it's really important to recognize there were 60 officials one third Of the legislature or if you include a couple of state livers a fraction under a third that have multiple party labels Has that been detrimental to the process? Are people Terribly upset. Do you hear an uprising from the general public that they're really angry? I'm asking the county. Absolutely. Yes, okay Yes, just like brand confusion. Sure like it'd be like You marketing your products from your farm is like conventionally organic Instead of conventional organic, right? They don't really actually never do that. But sure. No, I understand you would never do that At that point I mean they sort of as we're playing with some semantics. No, the cell phone. Yeah, and that is what is the experience is They don't really Understand the political product that's in front of them representative hang on representative Were you just saying that in reference to franklin county voters that they don't understand the Differentiation so what I want to what I want to say is that the issue that came up in the franklin county sheriff's race That we're going to hear about from our next witness Is has absolutely it caused a lot of people in franklin county to question whether it makes sense to have the party nominations Go the way that they go. That's why I put this that is the specific Impetus for me putting these couple of provisions out on the table for us to discuss this year And we'll hear more testimony about that from our next witness So that's good to know why you put it out But I don't think that was the issue in the franklin county sheriff's race at all party nomination Both parties came out and and and made statements about The candidate who was on the ballot But after but after he received and the way he got those nominations Is exactly going to be the crux of the next witness's testimony I don't agree with that that it was a republican democrat or independent or progressive issue at all I would say yeah, just I maybe You might I really would uh, let's have this conversation after we hear from some more testimony I mean you're talking about fusion canons right you're talking about like i'm talking about party affiliations for shares But but the party affiliation And the dual nomination are all wrapped up in what you're going to hear from our next witness So I would say if we could put a pin and and finish with the lieutenant governor that on this particular Conversation, we're going to really dive into this because it's like it's the heart of the matter for me Representative Hickley, you know just quickly and I haven't commented on this yet either, but I've been I ran as an rd And I believe in my area it's uh because we don't have to declare a party I I'm certainly understanding that the d's that voted for me voted for me out of Not a concern for the democratic party in a sense, which somebody had mentioned earlier that you know that that was the case And I don't think that's the case at all So so I don't have an issue with You know an rd designation for sure And to continue on that vein I I understand that it may create confusion for some But I also think Historically and again, we're seeing this now. I would say nationally if the republican party that there's this breath and this split of Sort of ideologies within the party that people somehow didn't think existed before but but does now And the democratic party is a big tent party. There are folks that would argue a single label Doesn't really tell you within that party's umbrella Where that person tends to fall Uh and when people run with dual labels Maybe true in this room. Maybe not. I don't know all of representative Higley's politics But there are certainly instances where there are folks that may consider themselves a particularly moderate republican and would want to generate that uh perception and Focus for their voters and would want to run as an rd Or Someone in the democratic spectrum who may want to indicate they are more Progressive than more moderate and would want to run as a dp or that they're like slightly more conservative I want to run as a dr. I think that's that's actually A helpful choice for a candidate And obviously I don't leave it out. There are some that run as pd's So, you know, you're looking at one of them of which there are many there are fewer this time than last time but that goes up and down And it gives people a general understanding of The direction that person Leans on a wide range of issues and even within progressives There are progressives that are unhappy that I run as a pd And some won't vote for me because of that because I'm too moderate for that Right, so just to let everybody know I'm modern to some people's minds I've often joked that But in any case Dual party labels, I think give more transparency not less in most instances And in some places it's active in other places. It's passive because there just isn't even competition Well, if we want there to not be a dual party label person in a district Apologize they don't use you as an example Then find somebody to run on the democratic ballot I mean, that's how you solve that problem That's not shouldn't be a problem that then impacts voters in other parts of the state who have that transparency of party labels being multiple Very briefly gender race, I think If it could be aggregated, you know, a non-individual identified and it does valuable information That's we're all trying to see, you know, how many of different categories may be elected But I think again the individualization is is very challenging and could be very damaging Um, I do agree with the provision that if you are actively seeking a write-in I am probably one of the few candidates in the state who has done this many many times That having the candidate file it a couple weeks beforehand to alert the clerks and let the clerks know I can give you a direct example. It was either two or four years ago Uh, there was a very close writing ballot And it then became a a new scurfluffle because they had to open the ballot open the bag of ballots a few days later Down I believe it was in Middletown Springs or a couple towns down that way because It was actually a one vote margin And my campaign knew We had people that we knew had taken the progressive ballot or taken the ballot and written to men and they didn't count them They were just there are nine votes in that town It turned out seven of them were write-ins for me. It clarified the outcome. So I think having that write-in provision is is actually quite good because it'll save clerk's effort and it'll save that kind of confusion after the election And uh I just didn't understand what sections 14 and 15 of those are also something about write-ins But more local districts. Yeah, it's just about the different elections Yeah, that's what I thought was by the one key differences in the draft of the bill. It allows uh for the local elections The consent form can be done all the way up until the close No, no issue there. I just wasn't sure so I don't know if I've generated questions And if my time is up anyway, we we are over but I don't and I appreciate you given Yeah, no, and and we will be working on this bill, uh for uh, at least another week or so So, um, yeah, I if there are quick questions For the lieutenant governor now, I'm happy to What was the year that middle town springs example and what exactly were the implications of that? problem, uh, I don't recall like I said it was either two or four years ago And the implication would be that there would have been a different person Running and creating a three-way race in the general under the progressive party label as opposed to the fusion Uh way that I was running and that individual if I recall I think it might have been 2020 because we opened up ballot You didn't need to get signatures to get on the ballot I had to beat someone whose name was on the ballot. It really wasn't You know back to your controlling who enters the ballot They were not a historically active progressive in any way if anything they were active in other bizarre ways And so the indication would have been it would have been a three-way race But but if if there's an organized write-in you would think that they would then you want those counted and that makes it clear that that's the effort Because you cannot file on two ballots. I don't know if you're aware of that Are we talking about for governor or lieutenant governor two or four years ago, which were you two years? I suppose it's relatively irrelevant, but two years ago I was running for governor Four years ago I was running for lieutenant governor And you're saying seven votes is going to make the differences to who your competition was Seven votes was the difference between my write-in on the progressive ballot for that office Allowing to run with two as two party candidate versus someone else winning the progressive nomination and therefore That nothing And also mr. Chair. I know time is limited. So what I'd like to offer is Given 20 whatever years of experience particularly with a lot of these kinds of provisions I'm happy to come back or answer questions without Sitting in the chair some of the time or me with anybody And I imagine we'll we'll all Continue to have these conversations as we consider this important piece of legislation. So thank you for being with us today Mr. I appreciate you giving me the time One point represented by So maybe any of your 20 plus years of working in and around vision candidates Are you aware of any prs or are these? um I know that Former senator vince illusi As the state's turning has run under all three parties in the past and would have again had there been Our dog a straight rd or dp or is the common connecting theme here the d? um Coming from one side or the other I don't know. I think there may have been one, but I honestly don't know I'd have to go do some But it would be an extremely rare instance Sure, both are, you know, all of them are fairly rare. I mean dr dp. They're all, you know Handfuls of, you know, a dozen here. It doesn't matter Perhaps it might take some digging so I think we want to be very specific about what the question we were asking wasn't why but it's good to Good to think that I also don't know that that's critically important. Although maybe it is for some reason I'd love to hear why do I just I just I think the most common connector within all of these The alphabet soup is the d. Well, I think if we think of politics as linear D's are more towards the middle of that range. I am to think politics can be non-linear Over time But the way our system has worked for a long time we are They're sort of stuck at a linear mindset, which frankly I think leads to partisanship and means to some of the struggles versus more triangular Thank you. Thank you very much for you know this today. So I want to give the committee a very quick break I know I need to step out for just a moment. So We will get back with our next witness if folks could try to be back in Five to ten minutes. We'll try to get back at about five of All right, thank you for your patience. Mr. Sheffler We're back house government operations and military affairs committee on this wednesday february 15 We our next witness to talk about aspects of our miscellaneous elections bill is the chair of the frankly county Democratic party to tell us a little bit about the last primary and I want to welcome zack sheffler to the committee Chair McCarthy members of committee, thanks for having me and thanks for your time and your deliberation on this issue I really appreciate it. I just wanted to come to speak with you about my personal experience what I saw what I felt on what and what I was hearing During the well our most recent primary elections in in august of 2022 Speaking specifically of what I understand is dr 23075 sections one sore loser laws and section six cross nominations I hope that this testimony today Serves as a tangible example of a system that allows for cross nominations and might lack some provisions around Or related to so-called loser laws I think I'd hope to stress From my experience the need for a more representative primary process The need for increased integrity and party nominations And just overall the need for more clarity in our electoral process as we you know work to increase civic engagement in vermont I believe there's a compelling state interest for all of these things And I think that combined with something i'm grateful for an open primary system something that gives verminers and voters a flexibility To do what a lot of folks I talked to up here like to do which is vote for the person not just the party Those two things or these things combined I think make for a more not more representative system Moving along to bring you back and to summarize bit of what was going on in august of 2022 Particularly as it relates to one of our countywide elections the county sheriff's election so Some facts to put forth for for your consideration as you move forward Your discussions about the text of the bill john grismore Ran for franklin county sheriff It's a county wide office And speaking personally of my experience with the democratic primary nominations process Just wanted to bring to the committee a fact that grisbore won with less than 250 votes Out of what I believe is nearly 4,500 democratic ballots cast by democratic voters In the democratic party nominations during the primary of august of 2022 So again less than 250 votes out of nearly 4,500 cast Just days after the primary a video was released and this video showed john grismore Salting a detainee at the franklin county sheriff's office Uh following that video's release Both the franklin county democrats and franklin county republican parties Called for grismore to step down And to decline party nominations In in our case, this would have allowed this would have allowed, you know, our committee to nominate a replacement and fill the vacancy that That grismore would have left had he declined and stepped down ahead of our general election later that year but grismore declined and You know given that fact And because he refused to decline he was not only printed on the ballot But his Well, the number of votes that he won with again 250 votes of less than out of 4,500 democratic ballots cast meant that this small number of write-in votes allowed him to appear on Uh the as a democrat on the ballot And it allowed him to have this republican democratic nominee status with r and d next to his name and Um, I just want to share with the committee that What I found is that this implied that the democratic party and the republican party supported this nominee And backed him and his appearance on the ballot To a personal point and I just want to share and I can only hope to impart the Incredible amount of confusion that this caused among primary voters and carried through into The general election an immense amount of confusion lack of clarity around how this came to happen A lot an amount of confusion that Demanded a lot of explanation not only in the press but personal conversations. I had um with fellow party members about how You know john brismore secured the democratic nomination with so few votes an amount of votes that wasn't representative in any way considering that You know the small percentage that that earned him and secured his nomination It was incredibly fraught. It was incredibly difficult. It was incredibly confusing And comments about the lack of clarity were many For me, I would support any action that The legislature could take to increase the integrity of party nominations and when I say integrity I mean any any steps that we can reasonably take partnered with our open primary system to reduce Things that have been discussed at incredibly high level in this country I was reading a bit about store v. Brown supreme court And reading a bit into a paper published by the congressional research service regarding sore loser laws and other ballot access issues Um and uh ballot nomination issues and um increasing integrity means that we would have Kerry we would have less Inter-party rating in the nominations process and also, uh, just reduce intra party feuding ahead of a general election I would support any action you could take and I thank you so much for considering this I think it's reasonable to ask folks running for office in a party primary Given that they're open to pick a lane Choose which party to run under or if they choose run under no party and run as an independent I think that vermont system with these added provisions would be incredibly strong and helpful as being Move to an increased civic engagement increased clarity Um and reduce the level of confusion on the ballot as it's put forth And as it's given to voters and again just to reiterate um this primary process in august 22 2022 was um Well, it was uh, it was deeply upsetting to members of the party It was deeply upsetting to voters in general and the amount of press the amount of personal conversations The amount of intra-party conversations The amount of deliberations that we had to go through uh, and I had to work with you know, my partner Across the aisle here in the county at the county committee level county certification level It was a laugh I don't know if it was helpful. I would argue that it was and so Thinking about the text that y'all are studying today and that they're working through Today and in the weeks and months ahead Um, I would uh, I'd be interested in and highly support any measures that y'all could take around sort of loser laws and to clarify this And cross-domination process That's really all I have to say for now, but I'd open it up to any questions chair McCarthy Did it feel like an insurmountable challenge to have uh a candidate who you know out of 4500 roughly Democratic ballots cast countywide got a couple hundred votes To have them holding the democratic nomination for you to get the call You know, what was it like to answer the calls from people who who were asking you why did the democratic party endorse this guy? Right. Um, what was that particular word? Well, so Yeah, did it feel insurmountable to to like endorse the right and candidate and try to make that happen like the The process that we went through Um, and then, you know, you were at the the kind of the center of a storm along with The chair of the frankly county republicans trying to support a right and candidate Did the fact that there were both of those nominations on the ballot create kind of an insurmountable challenge for you? I would say the amount of To verify I've had You know It was uh, it was highly highly it was it was trouble. I don't know if I would use the word insurmountable The amount of energy that it does to do any of these to rally Choices I would use the word Thanks representative hang up So I hear what you're saying and I I lived this because I'm in franklin county And I was also a candidate on the ballot and also a voter Um, so I don't understand what removing a party label On the ballot would have changed about this particular election To me it was um, really a name recognition. It was not a party Affiliation that got this individual elected duly elected. May I add? Whether I'm for against the election of this individual and what party I belong to Has no bearing for me on this situation at all. So could you further explain how removing a party label would be? Um, beneficial in a situation like this should it ever come up again? Yeah, I think that too, you know, again, the first conversation conversation Folks across the county Who would have specifically pointed to the lack of representation of the shell that was so low I'm so low for a candidate Denominations again and just want to do for the committee's tone the liberation Of the fact that in the county without voters casting Balloting did not first born say That cast only 237 which wrote And that's a I guess I would just I would just That's a representation issue And I don't feel that democratic voters in the primary process the party party Oh Zach would you say that voters who saw the republican slash democratic Nomination that of the one name printed on the ballot that many of them were probably Assuming that both of those parties were supporting those candidates. Maybe had missed your press release and chair Bruno's press release Yeah There was a lack of clarity there was Around Pretty pretty labels On the ballot and A voter Lack of clarity What I imagine At the situation of the first was was quite a bit notable. It was very Yeah, I'm not quite done with that. I don't think you really answered my question Unfortunately about how removing a party label would establish clarity in my opinion that would perhaps muddy the waters even further because People who are for instance staunchly republican or staunchly democrat would then question Okay, we've elected somebody. What party do they belong to even though Maybe a sheriff shouldn't belong to a public Or a political party, but that's another conversation totally. So how would removing a party label establish clarity? um, look, you uh rephrase the You're the character trying to capture. I try to capture what I think you're getting at represent pango and you can tell me if I'm Uh, I don't want to put any words in your mouth that I'll try to ask it in a way that I that I think would be helpful so What does it mean to a voter when they see the party next to the candidate's name? That's not what I'm asking I'm asking. What does it mean to a voter if they see no party? What it what advantage is that? What are you trying to accomplish by removing party labels? um, I would just point again You know, it's about the many voters And not the many so I guess I would just say that putting candidates in a ballot who are clearly uh, and and with significant intent Our endorsement by large part of the democratic Other party voters. I feel like having any of the candidates on the ballot are clearly supported by their party Uh, is important and I would leave the rest of that discussion as to who to support or uh, Thank you. I appreciate that you're representing one particular party's view But I did want to make it clear to folks who may not have followed the election that both the republican and the democratic parties This candidate prior to the election. So now we're having this conversation That's not the case actually. So it's not before the election That candidate for sheriff only appeared on the republican ballot is and the democratic party in large part because that particular candidate had um, been endorsed by the sheriff Did not actively recruit and if I recall that correctly am I am I right chair shuffler that the democratic party wasn't really focused on The sheriff's race because those aren't really seen as partisan races We don't do a lot of activity around the probate judges race or the or the sheriff's race typically But I understood that before the general election this Person was endorsed by both parties. Am I incorrect mr. Shuffler? To my understanding in the primary grismoor ran under the republican primary ticket um, and And there was no candidate on the democratic In the democratic primary and I would just to add clarity to the discussion In the general grismoor received Republican and democratic labels because a very very small number of democratic primary voters 237 Wrote in john grismoor's name on the democratic primary ticket Me and because of that small number speaking for a large number of Of democratic primary voters in a lack of representation that some folks felt Grismoor received the democratic nomination But uh to your point specifically Grismoor ran on the republican ticket in the primary He did not run On the ticket printed on Democratic primary ballot in the democratic He received writing So appreciate what you're saying. I think this has clarified for me some of the like where the issue is and I guess I wanted to say something and then see if this is correct the the So when a voter goes to the polls, they're looking at the name and the party and I think I'm not sure every voter in vermont or every vermont voter Sees it one way or the other that this would be an endorsement from the party Because in this state the people who are voting decide for themselves if they're democrats or if they're going to vote on the democratic Um ballot and they're and they also are the ones who are deciding who gets that democratic nomination So it's very like people driven Rather than the party saying like here's who we're putting on the ballot, which you know, I think it could go both ways I think in history parties have decided and then done that they put that on the ballot Um, and we just have a very like much more Bottom-up process from what I'm under. You know, this is really crystallizing that for me And I guess You know, is there another way to handle this confusion? Which would be educating the public about about that like go into the voting booth you're acting as a member of the ballot that you're participating in to nominate your party candidate rather than trying to Do it like ahead of time Or do it Is there a specific question? That seems like a deliberative question I would be happy to give that to the the committee to discuss Unless there's a specific question embedded in there. I'd be happy to answer. I guess just am I getting that right? I I think maybe what representative Nugent's trying to get at Zach is And correct me if I'm wrong but the tension between the fact that we have open primaries And then once we get to the point where the primary is over That party label that's on the general election ballot It means different things to different voters because some voters are really aware of how open our primaries are And what that means and a lot of voters I think assume and was it your experience act that A lot of voters who saw that the democratic not You know label was going to be next to that Franklin county sheriff candidate's name along with the republican one Assume that the democratic party like you as the chair for instance were supporting that candidate Yeah, um, I would say that the fact that 237 out of 4,500 folks Provided this nomination And then therefore, you know this candidate appeared with our party's label next to it signaled to The majority of people that the party as an organization as an entity as a As a as a political body Endors that endorse that candidate when the reality of it was that The result was was not indicative reflective or representative of the party's wishes or intent representatives Thanks, would it be accurate to say the way things played out basically caused those write-ins to lock up the The label so that you couldn't put anybody else on the ballot even after the primary I would say that using the words locked up It it secured this particular candidate the nomination. Yes, and it forced us to Given that the candidate did not decline or step down from receiving that nomination it forced us to mount you know separate It required us to mount additional measures in order to You know Work on behalf of of the voters to give them other options on the ballot Okay, and if I understand it correctly the proposals put forth in this draft Would have left that position Open so that you could easily put somebody on the ballot with that label To provide the ultimate choice. Is that accurate? I believe that the provisions in the text would have helped clarify our nominations process and Make it clear to democratic voters that You know gristmoor may have in fact not Garner the support of the majority or even the majority of the democratic party and party voters All right But I'll position it Towards the county chair As there have been any discussions on the possibility of a like a provision Saying that a major party would reserve the right or have the opportunity to reject a right and candidate if they didn't feel I mean, I'm kind of building on the game conversation of vetting I have not asked that to prepare for that question If you have somebody who comes in on this right inside and like they don't represent Uh, you know one of the parties like ideological vain policy vain, you know functional approach to the role they may play I'm just thinking right. Is there Again thought bubble. Yeah. Yeah, I think Yeah, so the that's a we should have this discussion as a committee about Is there are there other ways that we could accomplish There being this clarity, you know, that's that's kind of what we're getting at, but um, the Yeah, there's probably a lot of different ways to skin that cat I think the tension that we run into there representative Byron is between The the voters of vermont. I think want the ability to have his open primaries and and jack was getting at that That he's not testifying against us having open primaries I think vermont voters in my experience Really want to be able to you know grab the party ballot where their candidates are To to boost to the person that they want to get that particular party's nomination in a given year But then on the flip side of that there isn't really any check for a party other than just putting out a press release To say like hey, this person who got our nomination isn't really the person we endorse We'd rather you vote for somebody from the other party or or write in a candidate in this particular Instance I think jack summed up pretty well with the consequences were but that's another idea that I think is worth putting on the table Zach we've kept you way over time representative hooper has one last question Zach for the sake of personal clarity in two sentences or fewer could you articulate your ask with the committee today? um, I would simply uh ask y'all to Consider the text and understand that it would be very helpful to party members as we uh look to boost engagement in the county Are you asking for a removal of party affiliation? shares candidates one of your requests Or is that not? No, I wouldn't clarify. I wouldn't characterize my request. I would simply say that the text is written in sections one and six I think is great work. I would ask y'all to continue along this line of thought to provide clarity as to well to Give parties the mechanisms in place to clarify candidates Thanks for being with us today. Zach. I've really really appreciate your time Hey, I appreciate yours and uh, thank you for considering this. Thank you for working through this Uh, I just appreciate all your work And I uh, really hope y'all have a wonderful wonderful rest of the day Take care youtube adios All right, next up, uh, I really appreciate uh, Liz Medina From the aflco is asked for some time to testify about our elections bill and I appreciate your patience our scheduling today has been a bit of an accordion No worries sometimes happens Absolutely, and I appreciate having some time for today so Thank you for to those folks who may not have seen me as much around the state house I do spend a lot of time, you know visiting member work that member workplaces and Local union halls. So my name is Liz Medina and I am the executive director of the Vermont state labor council aflco Which is our state's largest federation of labor unions and we represent over 13,500 members in this state Um, we're a growing labor federation. Thanks to some amazing organizing AFT and ask me and other affiliate parent unions and locals and I With all due respect to the previous witness, um, I really am not seeing a problem Uh, what I hear is that the party may have to communicate more with voters if there's confusion And for my organizing perspective, that's a very good thing So I want to put a pin on that and um, encourage people to think about that as well and I'm going to speak some really hard honest truths about where our members are at and I hope you can listen to them and Uh, appreciate them for what they are aware of voter. What voters are feeling these days at least among working the monsters and um, a lot of our members feel alienated frankly by most political parties especially the two traditional parties and we, uh Struck out a new vision for the labor movement in 2019 To really try to find our own political path forward A new vision for the labor movement I in full disclosure was part of the reforms plate in 2019 called united And we ran on a 10 point program Which was officially adopted when our slate won in 2019 And one of those points is a new orientation toward electoral politics that reflects What our members where our members are at and at this convention where we were elected It was one of our most well-attended convention that we've had in decades We had over a hundred delegates there And we won overwhelming support for every single seat of our executive board of our labor council And party politics was a great component in that and one of the biggest debates we had We really want to see autonomy from political parties and that is one of the points of our program number six And what's important to us more than party affiliation is what a candidate is willing to do for working people And we see the fusion candidate process as one way that helps us as union members Understand better and with full transparency and clarity Where exactly a candidate would may stand within that two party system because these are big tent parties And there's a lot of difference within each of them and we really need to know Where these candidates stand and I think you know with the struggle in this country to have viable third parties The fusion process is really one of the best options we have Four parties and candidates that don't have a lot of resources to Say hello to our members and other working for monitors exactly where they stand And so I find that particular provision provision of the election reforms to be problematic and I you know just heard about this yesterday and I called on some of our leaders and board members about it and they were equally perplexed Katie Harris of Asked me 1674 Howard center secretary of that local You know really doesn't understand why this is even a proposal because she does not see this as helping her members understand Who they should vote for and endorse? um, so With that I will say you know, I think that's a it's it's solving a problem that it doesn't exist and can only Probably create more problems um I would also say you know as a working class organization I find it concerning that we are putting more money in politics And particularly allowing candidates to give unlimited contributions to political parties I don't see how this can do anything other than entrench existing social and economic inequalities in in politics and in this state We need to as My colleagues yesterday, so eloquently stated really try to do more to take money out of politics And look into public financing of campaigns and campaign finance reform so I you know I can just say that I I know that our base Is not going to be supportive of anything that may sit harder for them to have alternative Party endorsements or candidates or more information on candidates That requires the parties to maybe not work with voters when there is confusion and actually organize and talk to voters So I think that's all I'll say um, Liz are you open do Did you want to end your testimony or are you open to questions? I don't I don't know forcing their conversation, but everyone smile folks have clear clarification and and I just wanted to ask um That I really take to heart the um, the call that you made in beginning of your testimony to make sure that candidates, um, you know reach out and are Not just trying to work inside of one party I think what you were getting at was that the the sort of you called it the fusion system I would say that the ability to run with the two party to two parties it sends a signal It's a communication, right and I'm wondering if That it's is it really necessary to communicate that sort of affiliation or feeling of having shared values with two or multiple parties Needs to be done on the ballot or whether you know, this is about you know, candidates organizations labor unions, etc That are involved in our democracy Communicating better So it's like the the thing we're looking at is that specific issue of what is the state's responsibility In our managing of primary elections in our publishing of the the nominations on our general election ballots to A lot to facilitate multiple party nominations and is that a virtue or not? That's really the question that we put on the table. It's yes to both I think they need to see that that's part of communication having it on the ballot And also the parties need to communicate as well. I know that a lot of our members Would not even probably participate if they didn't see that there were some kind of fusion candidates because They're so alienated from the two part traditional two parties Any further questions for loose Representative Huberty, what do you think your organization's role is? Doing what you think the party should be doing in terms of fusion you historically put a Scorecard of how people who are in office vote on Issues that you put forward you put forward a slate of issues that are important to you Um, why is it not incumbent upon your organization to make sure that Either by interview or some other fact That you know where they stand and that conversely your membership knows where they stand We do do that So then why I don't necessarily see where Where somebody perceives the absence of the Two-letter designation on a ballot but to say oh my voting That seems rather strange Well, we have a lot of members and so we may be able to reach some people But we're not going to be able to each reach every single one of them And so our signaling in support of particular additional third parties or other candidates You know only hat has a certain amount of reach and I think that additional ballot Information is really vital for the broadest base of our membership The more we talk about this just to share more I think that we are Crossing the line over into What parties could and should be doing to regulate their own business? And that we are maybe not on the solid its ground Regulating it for them by legislation Yeah, I've um We'll we'll have time for committee discussion on this, but I would say We've had a variety of witnesses over the last morning and afternoon testify and I really appreciate you being here at lis In offering your perspective that Many of the the The discussions that we've had Have gotten us thinking about things that aren't actually in the text of the bill And I think that's important because there's a there's a lot there And there are other ways that we might think about addressing some of the concerns that have been brought up So I would say yes in the conversations. Absolutely. I don't think we're getting too Too far afield in the text of the the bill that we're looking at in terms of having this question about what's the state's role and And what guardrails do we want to put on our primary system? That's kind of the that's squarely in our jurisdiction, but I think you're absolutely right We we've gone down some tangents in terms of what the relationship is between the parties and the state and other important institutions in our democratic process and This is these are really important conversations. I take them really seriously I want all voices to come to the table and tell us don't do this. Yes, do that Here's another thing to think about So we've got a lot on the table on this election's discussion and we'll we'll keep working On aspects of this bill and have more time for committee discussion I think that our next witness is in the room probably So Liz I want to uh, maybe one last comment from represent Merwicky, and then we'll let you go and We have one piece of testimony about something completely different Just a quick observation about the diversity within All the various factions here because I think you've got a union guy here that uh State employees union person here Still trying to come together Yeah It's a complex messy thing doing democracy isn't Very important though, and I appreciate you giving me some time to share our members perspective and I Look forward to maybe working together in the future on some election reform And I think would be really impactful. So thank you very much Thanks, Liz All right So i'm going to put the pause button on our election conversation for now