 It's the mat work. What's up everybody once again, it's Brandon Shawn and I'm back with another link up and today I'm linking up with Circa from indie renewer Circa has an interesting story man because he used to be an artist right well he still is technically an artist right but I'm in my sound booth right now. There you go those are some dope man I like those sound walls man. But he's now also an owner of an independent music marking agency well and I don't think you just work with any artist right but but anypreneur is the name so they are extremely independent spirit spirited huge almost radical in the message of any artist right should be an ownership of them of their own careers their own destiny and there's a lot of great content that create gets created around it so there's not a lot of people out there who are really pushing quality content so whenever I can bring those type of people on I will Circa I appreciate you being on how you doing Brett? I'm doing great man it's a pleasure to be on obviously a huge fan of this channel and love the content that you guys put out so I'm happy to be here man. For sure for sure man let's let's hop into it man because you know I don't think artists get to hear too many conversations that are just like more in depth in in marketing where there's opportunity for back and forth in additional context versus just a one off video that's kind of trying to train them on something so I would love to get your thoughts on quite a few things so first and foremost I want to know what are your top two marketing methods for 2020 at the time? Ooh so like it depends on you it depends on for what because everything's context dependent so like if we're talking about if it's talking about you know like I'm an artist I don't yet have a fan base I'm trying to generate fans so right now my goal is not to like make a bunch of money or build up an email list even I just need to start getting people's attention and I really love the work that you guys are doing with TikTok and I think influencers are a huge opportunity for musicians in a way that they never were I mean if you think about it like Facebook and Instagram influence and Twitter influence used to be something that you could buy but more is like a company a YouTube influence like there wasn't yet a standardized route for using it for the purpose of promoting a song or an artist not nearly as much as there is today the swipe ups the Spotify playlist the you know the TikTok videos everything is geared towards music in a way it's never been I don't have as much experience with influencer campaigns but I'm lucky to have kids who work in my office I'm just like to come work out of my office and I get to hear about it all the time and learn about it and then I also watch your channel and I get to learn about it through there and I'll watch a little bit of Gary Vee and he talks about it too and so I know a lot about it I just I haven't done any of it but the plan for this year is for me to I'm actually kicking back up my own music career when you mentioned it and I'm going to be using myself as our as our testing grounds artists for some of these newer ideas so I think influencer marketing is like actually I'm very excited about it I don't know if it'll work for my brand of music but I'm going to try it out and then and I mean as always I think that paid traffic just in general is as good as it's ever been I would say just to just throw it out there because I don't think your audience might hear it enough like for me email marketing in 2020 in 2020 blaster for sure bro for sure email marketing and messenger so I'm gonna drop some science like yeah we got to you got to go into messenger iMessage for Apple is going to open up their API to all these chatbot builders that have been building chatbots for Facebook Messenger oh snap okay so if you have like many chat for Facebook Messenger that many chats like allows you to build a chatbot so if someone messages your fan page it'll be like hey click a button below based on what you want and then there'll be buttons in messenger and you can put videos and audio and links and tons of stuff and automate it all and then if they click a certain button you can add tags and then talk to them later based on what they've already done with you there's tons you can do but now you're going to be able to do that with iMessage and in a crazier way which is going to be it's going to change the dynamic of all this text marketing you see artists dabbling I think a major problem is that us artists get like people will take serious marketing tools for businesses make a shittier version of it add some kind of music name to it yeah and then give it to us and be like hey you don't know anything buy this worse version of something that already exists right yeah and they've done that with text marketing a lot they do it to celebrities too but I think if iMessage becomes a chatbot thing we're going to see that take a major hit and you'll be able to do a lot cooler stuff than text marketing with that so I'm excited about messenger and that's if you're just like if you're in the process of building your initial fan base so you're telling me just be clear on that right the the messenger thing I'll be able to natively essentially interact with apple users yeah so okay so I'll walk through it actually and then another thing is that instagram and whatsapp are going to merge with facebook messengers so instagram dms are going to be part of facebook messenger they're all going to be the same ecosystem and they're going to be in a chatbot builder too so you can build for instagram dms as well so basically it's like I could have let's say you're coming to my show and there's some signage at the show where I'm going to give you half off at the merge table for certain items or a free drink at the bar if you scan this thing it can pop up in iMessage or it'll pop up in facebook messenger depending on what I put on this like scannable thing or a link or whatever so when you when you type it into your phone or you scan it it opens up a dynamic message that's like hey their name because it pulls it right from my message right and it says it says I'm going to give you your coupon first what's your email address or like what's your number if you want to get their text up then or whatever and then it can say you know here's your coupon code or here's your you know discount at the merge table and then later on you can have it programmed to follow up with them to drop pictures from this show on them like in a week and say hey we've got sweet like you know did you claim your coupon or you could even check to see if they claim their coupon and be like we still got merch from the show would you like to buy another package after you drop that on them or you can follow up with them and have them on like these people bought tickets so when you come back through you can message them through your chat bot builder again and just bring all the same people back to the show so there's just one of like a million use cases that you have for like a technology like that and that's going to be evolving you can truly segment that like an email yeah basically but even crazier because right with many chat you have the way that many chats building up the show right now it's like you can connect it to your facebook fan page which i know a lot of your audience is not using that but it's just like think of it as like think of it as like a hub it's not like it's like email it's like mail champ like if you have mail champ like you're not on mail champ but it's like you use it to market well that's right facebook can be for you right got it so it has facebook messenger but soon it's going to have instagram dm i message and then it now has email and sms so in this same flow like for instance when they opt in i can have many chat also send them out an email real quick like i can have it send them a text message whatever like so it's pretty crazy you can send them a text message with the link in it from the same technology that brings them back into a messenger conversation or whatever it's nuts oh man yeah you can sell in it you can sell products in it you can take credit cards in it i can be like yo here's which of these t-shirts do you want you click the button and then it pops up it's like okay credit card expiration and it can sell you the t-shirt like right in it yo no okay that's that's amazing i didn't realize it was getting that deep particularly that fast yeah okay i'm definitely gonna have to look into that um more especially i mean i already know i mean you're one of the main people i see i know you and there's one other guy who doesn't do anything online he has like a zero online presence literally um but like y'all are only two people i know really mess with messenger heavily all right um and and particularly for artists so i'm excited to see and i'll be topped in to see as you cover some of that i'm sure you will what what are your two hmm what are your two oh no i'm saying the two people you are one person no i mean what are your two things you're most excited about what your two methods for the 2020s got it so the first one is definitely influence marketing and very specific to the tick tock just because of the timing of it because of the fact that i know that this opportunity is the window will not exist for long right it's always it's going to continue to be relevant in its own way but just knowing that this year the the cost of influencers is going to be different than shooting even six months from now right i'm just so so the low the underpriced attention that happens to be on the platform right now and just also the ability to understand what i consider to actually be just a completely different way of communication in in some senses right i look at tiktok not just as a another social media app i look at it as a form of communication that's different than instagram that's different than tiktok and different than facebook right so at some point to not even learn it and understand how to communicate effectively in that platform is going to be similar to people who say yo give me a phone call stop texting me and but that generation is like no text me i just texted you don't call me after i texted you so i'm really excited about just learning that different dynamic and all of the small nuances that people don't necessarily give credit for it off the back that just comes from getting into that process you have to get your hands dirty so i've been doing that so much i'm excited about that outside of the results of all that stuff associated with it because it is ridiculous to see pushing on one platform and without the strong ask that you might have in a facebook ad that you might have in a instagram post or whatever without that strong ask people are translating over into these other platforms it's just really interesting to see them go from tiktok google search you know now they're just trying to make it more integrated and that's going to happen more and more of a time but you know up until now really i i hear a song and i google search it or i Spotify search it and find the song to listen to it or save it that's been the behavior so for people to jump over those like those barriers and to get results and for people to also and as opposed to view as opposed to like as opposed to comment right an even stronger level of engagement create a video to all those things are just ridiculous to me because photos are the the dna of of instagram you know message and news is the dna of twitter but they really made music the dna of tiktok so that just lends towards a lot of things towards our industry that we hadn't seen before yeah that's interesting that's i mean that's super interesting i it's i hear a lot of so all the kids who talk about tiktok are also saying that like on instagram the algorithm is weird now i don't care as much about instagram like all of a sudden all of a sudden the algorithm is weird because it doesn't give you the attention you want that's why it's weird yo and this is weird to me because we started getting serious about trying out some ideas about instagram this year and our engagement is through the roof like because we focus on longer copy you know more eye catching visuals and just putting that little bit of effort into it it was a very noticeable difference so i was surprised to hear them be like our kids just aren't as excited about instagram as they were last year it's just not the quick fix that's being catered man it's that's a cool thing yeah yeah like tiktok they're literally i mean some people they will literally push a button and give them extra energy for about two weeks just to to you know give them a certain level of attention you'll see their stuff plateau all right there are that's the one interesting part about tiktok outside of the algorithm it's also human i'm checking this out and i'm going to decide how viral this goes there's a element of that that tiktok doesn't try to hide although some of this stuff exists on other platforms but it's pretty much integrated to their core process but i am definitely still pro instagram in terms of just overall right i feel like people should if you're like an artist with 300 followers on instagram and all you're doing is posting things and expecting organic and your your whole plan is i just have time and i want to do organic then you should probably do tiktok right and try to learn that because you're already behind the curve and you pretty much obviously have a lot of learning to do on instagram so you might as well just make that you know um it's going to be extra financial results in this particular time frame on tiktok but instagram i'm still excited about instagram some facebook really because i guess i still think of them as one when i just might start a marketing advertising campaign but like that space it's just it's not even i wouldn't even say it's a website it's being a website yet but it's still a space where if you know how to pay for traffic and get great results from that i feel like you like you just have to understand how to get returns right it's still a great place for that there's no nobody as comprehensive and yet easy to learn as facebook's advertising platform because youtube is not it's still harder to learn right so it's a little it's a little trickier and you know this yo you know what is crazy is that i don't even feel like it's that it's harder to learn necessarily there's less info out there like like that's obvious like you can't throw a rock without hitting like training on facebook ads but you know what i mean but like but there's not as much like obvious training on youtube ads that said it's the you isn't the ui like weird like the ui is more weird like harder to understand i feel like even though facebook ui i'm sure looks like braille to like yeah at first but it's not intuitive though it's not youtube is it's still isn't intuitive to me as long as i've been using it there's just still some things where facebook i just don't they don't explain a whole lot to you about what's going on right like what do you want to target i cool man uh we spent this much today you got these many clicks did you want to see more stuff i remember we can show you more but like you don't need to right yeah i still get scarred sometimes just understanding that like the placements which when i first found out about it was like you know it's so amazing but the fact that you can have placements and still be shown outside of those placements still annoys me it's also very confusing like connecting like taking a remarketing audience from google analytics and then putting it into a google ad and then like i'll run it and it won't get a delivery because they set up the audience wrong yeah it just sounds like beginner facebook edge like problems for me that that's pretty much it man out of those i'm actually i wanted to tell you because when you ask i was like well it depends because if you're a beginner artist here's whatever i recommend but right now i'm running our agency is running a set of facebook and instagram ads i can't really talk about it that much yet campaigns not raps and you know i'm not even sure to which degree i can't talk about it but i can give non-specific and say that the what we're selling is a collection of songs that won't be out on streaming and it's all in physical media the physical media costs 40 per and we're going to facebook ads and we're not allowed to really write much copies like the artist is very against using any copy wow we're just allowed to say who's on it we're not allowed to play any of the record we're not allowed to show the artist's faces or use press photos we're not allowed to make our own creative really and we have to just work only with audiences and the offer and there's a few things we can tweak we're selling so like 200 grand of records so far you know in like two weeks this is like an artist that's already has an audience though right so no they have no audience whatsoever is another thing but the people who are on the record have a big audience uh okay yeah that is interesting very interesting in case but when i think about something like that and it's like how do we sell this record it's like look the only hope you have is a stop limiting us from writing copies of this will be be also facebook ads and instagram ads there's no alternative that you have for a situation like that and and so that's you know like because artists are like our facebook is really that good it's like yeah i mean everyone wants like a million different ways to get fans but when it comes to turning music lovers with an offer that they're actually going to want into customers facebook advertising is so good it's still so good before i know you can't talk about it but like let me just make sure i'm hearing you correctly yes artist doesn't have a name there's artist with names on it cool yeah but i can't use any music to sell the music that no everyone who's bought it hasn't heard any of it yet okay and it's not a full album either but it costs 40 dollars i can't write anything really to sell it like to convince you to sell it not really we're not really allowed to use like adjectives like i think i tried to say like all right like these are some of the most celebrated like artists like all right and okay um album out so it's obviously probably is it a video though still because you know i know you're like i am like very pro elite with video are you telling me this is just a picture of i i'm not even for you i was able to make i took like a stock video of like i don't even think i can mention what i took a stock video of because it reveals too much but i took a stock video from like a stock video site and then i made it black and white and it's like a 15 second loop and it has nothing to do with the artist or the artists that are on it or the musical genre it's just like eye catching enough and we're allowed to use like the album cover but it has a shitload of text on it so we you know it doesn't get much delivery because it breaks the 20 text rule okay so that means but somehow we're getting somehow we've been able to pull out like $10 conversions on a $40 offer so it's already like a 4x thing it adds at one point it was 8x thing like nuts so these have to be some good-ass artists this is just good good artists fire fire artists favorite artists it's the artist and it's great targeting that's that's what it comes down to facebook ads targeting yeah for sure facebook ads and the offer is limited so it's also the scarcity aspect cool yeah i love it it's crazy so all the only reason i say that is to say that once you have a name recognition thing going on it's it's easy the reason that music is ever worth it to market or have is your career is this because you can't take like you can't take an e-commerce product and go out to cold traffic and spend you know like three thousand dollars across a week and make a 4x return like that's not common it takes a lot of preparation to get to something like that they came to us a week before the software went live and they're getting this result and it's because of that love that people have for the artists that they are seeing and they do recognize and so it's like that's where the money is in music is like if you have a name you have this all these people who recognize you it is the easiest thing to sell out of all things you could sell building the brand in the first place which is the part that so many people struggle with so all right tell me let's get back a little bit then to your no actually before I get to that what are some issues that you feel that you find when artists are running their campaigns like I you run into a lot of artists who are asking questions things like that but I'm talking about not even tactical but more so the habits like bad habits and just philosophy that keeps artists from understanding this is how you're supposed to be thinking to actually run a campaign and once you understand this way of thinking then you can learn facebook ads you can learn youtube ads and execute them right and not just watch a course but actually execute it because I think that's one of the things that I find a lot of times people like read a course or watch a video but then the execution part is still that other way you understand marketing that helps you actually go out there and be effective way what what's that issue that you find yeah so I was just talking about this with someone today but a big thing is like a lot of people get sold the course that they're supposed to take in a month period and they're supposed to enable like an active strategy and they're supposed to get this result and that result is supposed to solve every existential world that they have about their music career and it never works it's never gonna happen and so people are used to a marketing promise of look try this out for a month if it doesn't make you super happy then you know it didn't work and you get your money back or something like that but they're used to like try this and if it doesn't work it's a failed idea and so move on to the next idea and try it for a month you say no no no no no all these things most of these things work but your timeframes are off most of these things work like most go pick a marketing course it fucking works like seriously like go pay a thousand dollars for a marketing course out there for these marketing gurus it works is it worth a thousand dollars probably not but it works you know what I mean it works and so it's usually not the course it's usually not the strategy because the people who sold you the course are smart enough about marketing to have used marketing to sell you a course so they know what they're talking about to a degree at least to some degree but they're they're making a marketing promise that's invalid which is I think the marketing promise should always be if you come take this course and you decide now is when I activate and I begin my life of trying my ass off at this thing this is when I start this is hard working me all of a sudden this is how I'm going to live the rest of my life and you dig in and you keep doing what they're telling you to do and you tweak it and you dial it to your situation until you get it right and then you scale it and you realize what's wrong with that and then you reinvent it and then you come back and you will be you will succeed at that but you'll never succeed at taking a month long course pulling a rabbit out of the hat and now all of your problems are solved it's never gonna work so I think the marketing promise is off I think that's people expect that if a system doesn't work after they give it a solid two months shot that the system's wrong it's like no time frame's wrong you have three years of hard ass work before you're anywhere where you can kind of look down and be like oh shit I'm pretty high up now you know no man I think you know that man because I actually had a talk with um it was on the podcast we started this podcast called music mavericks that we well we've been testing that we haven't even officially officially launched yet but one of the conversations was just a fact inspired from an artist that I had spoken to was the fact that not only did it take me a while to realize that hey most of these artists and just people in general but artists specifically are not running their campaigns long enough right but then also a lot of people aren't even preparing long enough like the amount of assets and and things that can go into it to even have a full campaign you don't even have enough content to have a full campaign or rollout and it takes months sometimes for these people who don't already have a system that you like already have my graphic designer off like so some of you should be spending three four months probably planning out a campaign right I think so to go back to your original question because the reason I kind of went through that diatribe is that like to explain to you that a campaign based approach is a one-off thing and campaigns to in order for a campaign to contribute to your long term like three four five year goal it needs to have certain parameters needs to have one is a target audience of people who are united in their stage of awareness so it's like if you're targeting both people who love your music and also people who have never heard of you before your campaign is already going to fail because you don't know where you who where your people are at they're targeting and we're trying to bring them right because like you don't need to bring people who already know who you are to knowing who you are but you do need to do that for all of the people who don't know who you are so you can't group them in together so pick a target audience of people who are united by how much they know about you they're completely cold or they've all heard one song or they're all your biggest fans and then determine how you're going to use this media to deliver them to the next state so if it's like they don't know who you are let's take them to aware if they're aware let's take them to they dig you if they dig you let's take them to they maybe signed up for something or they bought something or they spent some time with you if they've done that let's take them to a higher lifetime value where they've spent more money with you but every campaign should deliver people from one stage of awareness to the next and you use your media to do that and a lot of people don't realize that people people want when you ask someone to go for their campaign there isn't a wall there is no stopping point oh I mean it could you know it could you know give me some fans or maybe uh maybe become a millionaire I don't know anywhere in between yeah yeah yeah you need to have an objective outside of the objective that Facebook makes you select basically like what is what is your your key performance indicator that's what it comes down to like that what what's that next level because you're you're right I feel like so many people will start a campaign you know every single time I mark a song my goal is fans and that can't be your goal right because who are you talking to in the first place and it doesn't even make sense if someone who isn't even aware of me to become a fan is it possible it's completely possible but the artists that I have more ongoing relationships so they understand enough about their uh just the marketing stack or artists who have just been doing so much and when we finally have our conversation you can just tell they understand it'll be very specific on what they're asking for when they might come to me or when I'm just advising them and they're doing their own thing it's like oh yeah I'm just trying to you know this is more of a PR thing or just build an additional more fluff side of awareness and this right here is I want to get people exposed to it in the first place and then I'll retarget them later down the road for this next thing this thing is just about the merch it's not about my music this time right like they understand and they're not hoping for all of these things in one so that's a great point I'm glad you said that also recurring content is huge because a lot of beginner artists are doing campaign after campaign trying to get new fans and those new fans once they become new fans they're just waiting around for the next time that you have a single and a lot of them don't wait around a lot of them forget that you exist and you can stop that if you had something that they can expect like I use the example of like every week I open up HBO to watch my new show Avenue 5 right it's going to come out every Saturday I know that now HBO let me know so I'm going to come back every Sunday and watch it because it's now on HBO go and I'm going to do that till the season is over all they had to do was make me aware that it was on Saturdays and now they've created they've instantiated a behavioral pattern and they don't have to market to me further because I'm going to take the user action to access the content so the second that someone becomes aware of you do you have signage in place do you even have the content to say come back to Instagram or come back to YouTube every Friday every Wednesday I'm going to drop this do you have that in place because if not probably more people are losing interest than you then otherwise we would have to so you got a leaky bucket a leaky bucket always like that term because it's just so visual for me it's funny as you say that because I've actually been on that even personally from my own content more lately over the past few months like we have one piece of content that drops it's only on the first of every month right and we knew we were going to do it once a month and I was like well because of the fact it's only once a month and to make sure people know when to find it it can't be random we have to do it on a specific day right so and just to remember and just the results and the repeat from that even though it's only once a month this is far period it's not I'm dropping five pieces of content a day in your face in your face it's not even that right but to let them know hey first of month very easy remember you do an email um we do an email on the first of month and we do a video on the on the first of the month for that piece of content and the reminder that yes we're in this binge era but people do still do what you just said every Saturday just like you know traditional tell you I have I have 20 things that are like that crystal is podcast fighter and the kid Joe wrote I mean if it pops up and I have a I have a way to get it and I know where it's coming yeah yeah I mean so I love the concept of what you just said and it's so simple training your audience right that's what it comes down to now are there any other ways outside of hey I'm going to do X on X day or you can find X on X platform what are some other ways when it comes to training an audience that you might have utilized or even just you know have a thesis on yeah I mean uh instantiating behavior patterns is a huge part of building a business um and marketing so like when you're when you're building an email list typically a like a very common piece of advice from email marketers is in your emails like automation sequence when someone joins your email lists like the set of emails they get automatically right thereafter the first thing you should do is first of all get them to whitelist your emails so they come through the second of all let them know the title of your next email or open a loop that you know that they know in their mind okay the next email I'm gonna be looking out for because it has this in it right so they're instantiating a behavior pattern and then maybe before that email closes they're really good they'll get you to click the link over to a social media thing just to just to get you in the habit of a clicking a link in an email from them so right there they've said open my emails when they come in because something good is inside and click links in my email you're already doing it and they probably give you something cool when you click that first link just to make it like a positive experience dopamine floods whatever neurons were used in that action and reinforces the pattern in your brain right so like that's this common thing is instantiating behavior patterns but really to make it sound far less nefarious and complicated people do what you tell them to or ask them to right you ask someone to do it they're much more likely to do it than if you never asked so ask and there's so many studies on that yeah it's like but it's like it's like it's common sense it's like most people are most people want their their audience to do something that they're unwilling to ask them to do and it's like yo you're if you're unwilling to ask them why would they be willing to do it you know why do you think that is why do you think so many people are afraid to ask people are too cool for fucking school man they think they're too cool for school they think that like it's uncool to ask they think it's I mean a lot of people think it's uncool to market themselves a lot of people think that a lot of people having weird preconceptions about what their brain is and they fail to look at the people they admire and ask themselves if their standard that they're holding themselves to is exemplified in the behavior of that person that they admire their come up because it probably isn't it probably is that that person they admire their come up they're doing a collab with you know they're doing a collab with converse tomorrow and they're gonna drop it on their instagram story and they're gonna ask you to buy it they're gonna be far more forthcoming with their desires for their fan base and their promotional messages than the average artist who ain't doing shit because they don't have this weird hanging up about like being cool you know yeah I hate to use this word because it gets to what you so much today but I definitely feel like it's toxic and to an artist to have these these desires right but then you essentially philosophically are against doing the things that it takes to get to that that point right which is marketing and not and it's in fan bases as well I these like I said too cool for school type spaces of like some parts of music or culture aren't as against it or but there's some of them that are totally against it like I've seen an ad where well that was actually one of my artists so the artist the guy we had uh he he ran the ad a lot of people were like yo I found this dude an ad but there was one dude that found it through the ad and talked about he loved the song but he hated the fact that he was running ads right like that who like what kind of minus you wouldn't even know about this if I wasn't running an ad but you hated the fact that the guy the artist was running an ad because he was it was a very uh let's just say anti-establishment type artist brain you know I I just think that like because there's so many people who we look up to who have no problem like selling themselves yeah you know and but when we come when we begin to think about ourselves as a brand and I know this because like when I was a kid it was like this I know the feeling of being like yeah no when I picture my come up in my wildest imagination at night it doesn't involve me having to do anything whatever you know it's like I'm the fucking fawns bro you ever watch happy days I slide in there I hit the jukebox and I don't have to put a quarter in it because it just starts playing my song automatically and a leather jacket everything just comes to me in waves I don't need to even ask but it's like bro that's not real life like Gary V is one of the more successful people that like a broad majority of people have no problem looking up to they don't say corny and he's out there doing all these things that these artists think are uncool and he's way cooler than them like most of these people who think this shit is uncool they haven't done anything cool with their career yet do some cool shit and then act too cool yeah I could definitely say I understood I understand it to an extent just because of some of my younger years as you said I know exactly what it is you're like and if the sad part is a lot of it is really kind of justifying some of your own discomforts and insecurities to a point as opposed to you know just doing the work but if you think logically enough you'll just realize yo this doesn't make sense there's no way it doesn't make any sense look at anybody that you actually like feel they're cool and you'll see that this doesn't this rule doesn't hold yeah go look at their social uh you ever seen that you ever seen Mike Epps first big special he says yeah I don't know if you like Mike Epps as a comedian I definitely know I was just waiting to see what would you what quote you're going to he said he said that you talk about he was like that he was like the worst pimp in the world oh yeah the girls were lazy and he said they were like we want to go on vacation he was like well bitch make some money first and then we can do all of that that's how I feel about these people who were like I don't want to have to do this Instagram story it's not cool you know like girl make some money first and then we can do all that cool shit yeah no that that is that's real man and especially using Gary Vee in an example because nobody sells themselves as much as Gary Vee these days bro look at Will Smith look at the rock look at like all these man look at Kevin Hart bro oh my god Kevin Hart has no problem asking you to go check this out on Instagram or go buy this or go see his new movie none of these people have a problem with it and they're not cool but how do you like to be fair on the other side all right how do you can how do you get your cell scene or how do you communicate and really get them attached to your brand without feeling like you're you're begging me I don't know maybe that's what some people are trying to avoid I think trying to worry and empathize you know bad bad salespeople feel like they're begging good salespeople know that they're selling so like you know if you're a bad salesperson like you know there's training for that like you can become better got you um that's how I feel about it like because I don't know like it's just crazy that um it's just crazy that it's just crazy that like these there are like there's parts of the culture that respect it there's parts of the culture that respect salesmanship well hustle you know what I mean and know how to do all that but um but yeah man I just feel like I just feel like a lot of people feel like maybe like insecure about asking people for like asking people to take the action that they actually wanted them to take you know I get it man I think like to me when it comes to sales one thing I always resort back to it I can't remember the first person I've heard say it but it's common in salesmanship where they just basically leave back to the fact that like if you believe in the product why would you not tell somebody about it yo that's what actually I just posted on my uh facebook like the other day really like I posted like um here I'm gonna change my mic for that so yeah I put Facebook the other day I was like um I was like there's nothing more annoying than a like a a salesperson who lacks confidence because they're just wasting your time it's so annoying so it's believe in your products sales people who don't believe in their product lack confidence and they waste your time and they're annoying and they're clumsy and they fumble the ball while they're talking to you and of course that person is sales because they don't actually believe what they're saying to you so if you're not confident in the music go back and work on the music but don't blame it on sales as a concept you know what I mean got you yeah 100% man okay well I want to shift it before we hop off man give me a few approaches you alluded to email marketing earlier what are I don't even I was gonna say three things that's blog style like what but becoming successful at like in terms of email campaigns what what's the basic setup look like to you like the infrastructure of success for it for email marketing yeah and is there any difference between like email marketing for like any product all these products how like what's the big difference between all these products and all that stuff and how an artist would do it on email okay so if you're an e-commerce person you sell a product you have like a widget or whatever you sell a solution to a problem then your goal is to create a free smaller version of the solution that you can then say hey I can prove to you that I know how to solve your problem by giving you this little piece of the solution you'll see the quality of what I do and it's free and so you want it but it also gives me a platform to talk to you because you have to give me your email address to deliver you the little piece of the solution a coupon a free pdf or whatever it's called a lead magnet in digital marketing for for those of you out there if you don't know that and so um you you typically have a lead magnet people sign up for the lead magnet and the first email automation they get there is digital marketer which is one of our favorite marketing like education companies does what they call the machine style email marketing so when they sign up they get what's called an i-series that introduces them to your company it says hey welcome here's what you can expect i'm going to give you i'm going to give you some free of my best content for signing up and delivers that over like the first week and then it also starts them on what's called an e-series an engagement series and it delivers it says here's your thing that you signed up for and then a few days later it says hey I just wanted to make sure you've got that thing while we're at it I also wanted to give you an exclusive offer unlike the first step of actually paying me to solve your problem spending some money to get a solution because I already gave you the free solution you saw how dope that was here's an exclusive discount on the first paid solution right and if they take that they go into what's called an a series which is here's that and then later on down the line here's a more like the core offer like the main thing that I do and if you want that that's cool if not no harm no foul but this way you're onboarding them incrementally to higher tiers of purchase and there's other shit in there if they don't buy on the e-series or the a-series they go into segmentation where you're just sending them content over and over and over again free content until one day they they're ready for an offer that they want to take got you now for musicians you can actually do this until you have enough of a warm audience of people who dig your shit that people want to sign up for something like you can't just go out to cold traffic and be like I've got free songs signing up for them no one gives a shit so you told you you have to build up your audience to the point where you have a sizable you know a sizable fan base going I would say that you want you know on your socials if you're not above that 10k on instagram or if you're not you know if you're not at a significant amount of monthly listeners on spotify or on facebook if you don't have like you know 10 10k or above like you still probably have some work to do because you're not talking to people every day who you don't know who dig your shit but once you're at that level then you can start saying hey I've got an exclusive set of songs right about this exclusive thing you can only get by signing up for my email list and then you can do the exact same thing I just described and that's like literally that's why all of these companies say that email marketing is their most profitable form of marketing isn't that for every dollar they spend into email marketing they get $22 back it used to be 40 that's 22 but um I mean some estimates still have it up as high as 30 so it's the it's the most profitable form of marketing most people don't believe that but they're wrong well email takes takes work right learning copy is a whole another thing in itself yes yeah most people think you can have one email the whole that they don't do the amount of emails right let's tell you that it takes to actually lead up in each go each email having a specific um you know we have our part of the cadence yeah like our our company entrepreneur has about eight different pre-programmed automation sequences that are all comprised of like three to four emails in each automation sequence and a set of triggers and stuff that like routes you so that you get the right automations depending on where you're at um so there's a lot like there's a lot to it but you can it doesn't take much to get started and the thing about email is that people don't know like people don't know that you can send out an offer to like your little list of 2000 people and generate like two thousand dollars in a day you know what I mean like that's yeah the purchaser list that we're building with that campaign I told you about earlier that purchaser list when this artist drops another project he's got five thousand buyers already yes more so if he can send out he can send one email to these five thousand buyers and probably get 50 to 100 orders that's you know if you're selling a 40 dollar product that's like what that's four thousand dollars for sending an email or whatever you didn't know says pretty great it's beautiful it's beautiful I love that how do you without getting too deep into kind of what you just said from a general standpoint how do you justify email today when there's so much I don't want propaganda against it when we talk about hey text messages have so much higher of an open rate or you know messenger is going as is coming and it has this open rate how do you justify the lower open rate which they aren't all the same right of emails yeah um so with emails it's there's you're going to get a higher volume you can run it at a higher volume without running into issues like people getting pissed off there's there's more unsettled issues with deliberative deliverability of text and there's not as much you can do with a text message that said we're able to you can probably generate the same amount of money off the messenger but it's a completely different conversational style I can bombard you with emails and never piss you off because you just ignore emails that you don't read you don't keep a run out of them and then go this is number 40 that I didn't read I'm pissed now you just don't yeah and then eventually when you read one and you're like this is sick I'm gonna go do that and you can actually recycle your emails because if they don't read it you can have a trigger to just send the same email but yeah it's also not the best thing in the world that everyone answers their text messages because I do not expect x y z company to text me and when I do like I'm a marketer and I still might get pissed off I still might be like yo I'm having dinner right now bro I'm gonna go watch your video you know yeah I uh actually oh man I love Gary v but I got I got into his community uh because you know that app so I texted a number just to get an idea like research let me see how he's using it and for me personally I was like man all right Gary I'm gonna have to get up off of this because I was actually more selfishly maybe not thinking about something as large as fan base at large I was looking for maybe some more content like he has but maybe more specific or maybe more marketer driven but a lot of it would be like you're amazing you're awesome you know love yourself just know you it was like okay it's more of the motivational Gary but if that was text message I would probably I mean that was email I probably wouldn't have deleted it yet but the fact it was text message like to your point and it's like you know let me go ahead and exit out of this it's hard to send as much content with text and messenger because we were too frequent it was too frequent yep too frequent yeah exactly and and it's also like we're we're okay mentally we've become okay with the fact that you're gonna send me a million as a society it's in our gmail app or whatever and we're not you're not gonna get heated about it societally we have accepted the fact that you might send me a shitload of marketing text and that's why I think if you look at the owner of ClickFunnels Russell Brunson yes I mean he's got to have everybody's text number by now but he only sends out texts on really specific big campaigns when he has a big offer he's rolling out he'll text you and tell you to go look watch this video and have everything that needs to happen happen off of text so the text is just a beacon to say like go watch that's smart that's that's using text how it probably should be used yeah yeah if you don't want to piss people off for sure and yeah okay well cool man um I appreciate you hopping on it's been amazing conversation I know people are going to get value from it tell people you know that they get all aware to follow you and what to look out for well I'm going to say one thing look out for his whole I'm an artist like running yourself as a case study definitely keep up with that I think that's an interesting thing I'm always interested to see people use themselves as a living case study hell yeah man come see us on creative juice podcast and full stack creative on youtube and and continue watching this man because he knows what's good show show appreciate that man all right everybody as always if you like this video go ahead to like button if you like it might as well share it and if you're not subscribed you know what to do hit that subscribe but it's the