 Oh, hello, it is so good to see you guys today. Thank you for joining me I am here today with Donna Barwald and she's the author of the book this mass is causing me stress I know I felt that way just about every day of my life And here we are today. I can have a real conversation now She's a professional organizer and I know many of us want to clean our homes But we can't clean until our homes are organized and we can actually get to the places that we clean Right, so today. We're gonna have a really fun conversation and I'm so excited I want you guys to jump in in the sidebar. Please ask your questions today. We're here to answer your questions We're here to learn as much as we possibly can and then I want you guys to run over and get a copy of Donna's book Because if you are in the process of organizing your life, this is gonna be a really really fun conversation today So please help me welcome Donna Barwald. Hey Donna. Hi. Thanks very much for having me Well, thanks for thanks for joining us. I appreciate this. All right, so tell me you just did not arrive at an organized place There's there happened something in your life where you were like, I got to do this Tell me tell me more. How did you get started? Who are you? How did this all work? Okay, I Grew up in San Jose in a family that I had a twin sister a younger sister And a cousin eventually came to live with us my great-grandmother came to live with us We were in a 1500 square foot house. So I was Always in a state where I had no control over what was going on and I felt like I needed to take control and Do something that was going to give me peace, right? So I would Organize and unfortunately, I would organize Without telling people what I was doing so my family would get up in them You know in the morning and all of a sudden the kitchen is rearranged and what's going on and where do I find everything? But I found that if things were in the right place according to me or and could fit and we could See what everything that we needed and do everything that we needed to do then it would be so much less stressful I wouldn't be so aggravated because I ended up aggravated a lot and I shared a room with my sister and she used to get paralyzed when it was time to clean the Bedroom and we had to clean our room every day And every Saturday until so that we could go out we couldn't not We couldn't go out until our room was clean and she would be paralyzed and couldn't do it And I'm I want to get out of here. So I would take over and I kind of Just could see where things would go where things should go. What was too much like on the dresser to crowd it And it just made me feel better in the room. I noticed changed. There's air. There's room to breathe I mean literally it's a room to breathe and I felt that That is what I needed to bring peace of mind and cause me less anxiety so I just did it all my life wherever I was there I did it and Eventually I would do friends and family and I just sometimes without asking which don't do that One of my questions like my mother comes to visit right and she will reorganize my house, which is fine I just can't find anything because my natural organization place is not hers And so I have to call her 2,500 miles across the country after she's gone home and say mom Where did you put my kitchen spatula or something? So say, oh, it's in the third drawer over from the microwave or whatever And she knows exactly where it is and I have no idea. I'm like, where did she put my stuff? So was was that the same kind of thing where it was it was organic to you But did other people then have to learn your way of doing it or no The biggest problem is because I don't do it by myself except for my sister Well, go to my sister's house and do what needs to be done because I know she'll appreciate it after she gets done being mad at me For just taking over but for my clients and my friends or whatever I would do it with them and that's part of why people don't organize is that it's a lonely business and Maybe they can't carry things or they don't know what to do or you know, they'd rather be You know talking to a friend or going out or whatever So when they have a friend come over and as an organizer, I feel like I'm a friend coming over To do what needs to be done and I can take the lead But I don't work without you like I know house cleaners can just do what they have to do and and they come every week or every other week and they take care of your house and That's it, but I'm not like a fairy godmother. I don't come in wave one and and Automatically do things now if people don't remember where we put something because a lot of times you remember Thinking about where to put it and you forget what you decided So then they'll call me and they say do you remember where we put and then I have to remember You know, but with a lot of clients. I can't remember and sometimes I think I have stuff in my house That was really in somebody else's house But I remember putting it away, so I can't tell is it in my house or theirs and I have to think well look in the You know wherever it is and and maybe we put it there I think people should probably catalog write a list of of what's where After we're finished, but people don't usually keep me around, you know to do The other stuff because you know it costs money So, you know, I do quick and easy labels I don't think people want me to sit there and make labels on a label maker I just use a sharpie on on blue masking tape and I'm the same way I'm I'm a practical person And so I think part of my secret to success is finding something that's functional Not necessarily something that's Pinterest worthy and I've given myself. I Keep telling people that I say You know form follows function and pretty comes later. In fact, that's like a heading in one of my chapters Form follows function and pretty comes later. I'm more concerned with the size and location of storage Containers and things like that and then if you want to go to Target and buy pretty baskets or whatever it is But if a shoebox works We'll use this whatever we have whatever we need to get the job done And then you know you can do you know all the other stuff later, right? Yeah, if you wait until things are Pinterest worthy then you then you won't get done and it's perfect my big thing Finishing it. Let's finish the job follow through. Otherwise, you have half rooms and The clutter piles up again because the room doesn't look like it's a finished room anyway So you might as well shove whatever it is that you're That you need to hide at the moment that somebody's coming over you just shove it in a backroom Because the back room looks like that anyway and my idea is no Let's get it to a completed state get the clutter that you've decluttered out of the house Get it to the donation listed on Facebook marketplace do whatever you're going to do and finish the job and and so I tell people You know, you have to leave I tell people leave the last 20% of the time that you have say you're doing a five-hour organizing session Which you don't have to do and you shouldn't ever do more than five hours It's counterproductive and you won't be able you'll be so tired and soar You won't be able to get up tomorrow and do anything else But I tell you if you're going to do a five-hour session The last hour is doing all the follow-through so that you have time and you don't just like run out and say Oh, I got to go pick up the kid and everything stays where it is and people start stepping over it and Jumping you know dumping their papers there and doing whatever and it just never gets done I love that because if you're thinking in terms of The process taking five hours like we have five hours today on the Saturday to do this project And you batch it out in terms of the first hour We're going to sort through stuff the second hour We're going to split it up into piles the third hour We're going to go ahead and pack the car and take it to the whatever and then figure it out So that the fourth fifth hour whatever is is so it's finalized so that we're done with this project And there aren't piles people can trip on I love that so much for the fact that you can then kind of pace yourself Through the oh no, I'm running out of time for this hour And I need to be onto the next section of the project We do this a lot in house cleaning where there comes a time in every job Whether it's an organizing job or a cleaning job where we have to we call pulling the ripcord and imagine you jump out of an Airplane and you're in free fall there comes a moment somewhere in there where you have to pull the ripcord and let that parachute out Otherwise you go smack on the ground right and then no projects will ever get done And so we call it pulling the ripcord. It's that moment where you're like, ah, I'm not done yet and yet. I am and so I'm sorry interrupt. No, but most people bite off more than they can chew like they think okay. I am Going to organize the kitchen and then they've seen a show They've seen your clutter corner. They imagine that they have you know their counter as their As their working space and they pull every single thing out of every single cabinet and then it's sitting there and it's overwhelming You know mine it my idea is do it one at a time, you know, I'm going to take care of this shelf This is where I Should have the water bottles. Okay, I'm going to take care of the water bottles And I do everything that has to be done to declutter and organize the water bottle shelf now I can go if I have time go on to the next shelf or the next cabinet or whatever it is so if I don't bite off more than I can chew and I keep it within a Unlimited time keeping in mind that we're going to need 20% of the time that we have to do all the follow-through Then you know what you do and you don't have to wait for a five-hour chunk of time a lot of times people wait for You know the moment when they're going to have so much time to just sit there and devote to it Well, that's good for garages because otherwise you can't really get through a garage But the rest of your house you can do whatever time you have You can be doing something. I mean organizing becomes a healthy habit and you Do a little every day or three times a week you can schedule it in you can do it while you're Waiting for your coffee to brew or some things in the microwave You know you go to the silverware drawer and you organize it You see what doesn't belong there and you take it out and you decide. Oh, you know I have three measuring cup sets What do I need that for and you pick the best one and the other two go to the Get rid of pile I call it the get rid of pile because a lot of people separate things into sell and donate my philosophy is If you're going to go through what you're going to go through to sell then you might still have to donate So it's to me. Don't worry about am I going to sell am I going to donate that takes time I don't want you to have you know any kind of indecision about what's going to go I want something to go in the I'm getting rid of it pile I'm it's out of my house and the next decision I have to make after I've made the Organizing decisions of like where things are going to go in the house Or where these things specific things are going to go is now I can look at the pile of Get rid of and then make that decision sell donate Try to sell and donate after a month or a week or whatever it is You know, that's if you you have to do it in manageable chunks and he can't ever wait for a huge chunk of time because just never happens Well, I'm so glad you brought that up and I I want to say hi to the folks that we have that are just joining us Thank you so much Linda. Love shine a baby licious for Silla. I'm so glad to see you guys here for Silla says I'm cleaning in real time. I needed this. I love it when you guys clean along with us This is so amazing Fran is joining us from Arizona you guys Thank you so much for joining us today for those of you that are have just jumped on the call We're here with Donna Barwell. She's the author of the book. This mess is causing me stress This mess is making me stress is making me stress. I'm sorry and This is a really timely topic Since many of us are taking a look at the next steps in our organization at home So Donna, I'm curious what provoked the book. Ah Well, I turned 60 and I thought okay. I'm not going to be physically organizing for you know, the rest of my life and and I thought oh, you know what I should have done this during the pandemic when I couldn't go into anybody's houses That would have been the smart thing, but no, okay I'll just I'll do it now, but I wanted to get everything that I know down so well number one So I feel like I've accomplished Something and I can pass on the knowledge even if I'm not physically there with you the way I write It's like I'm standing right next to you and you can hear my voice I've got funny expressions and I really wanted to Make my voice heard it because there's a lot of things that people say and know and do That I don't think are necessarily practical, you know, I mean people watch Marie Kondo and you know They she pulls everything out of the closet and stuffs it on the bed and it's so overwhelming And I don't know how anybody can get through that and are you one of those people where you're like I can't I can't pull everything out and make a big pile Yeah, because visual clutter causes stress and If you do it in little chunks Then it's going to be you know much better plus you need to know what you're looking for Before you pull everything out and what if you get pulled away? I'm practical. I've got a kid In fact, I've got an autistic kid if my kid Decides at some point that they need me and I get pulled away And then I get tired because whatever they needed me for was exhausting Then I've got this big pile on my bed and now the moment's over and I don't want to do that so But the other thing is people are on this decluttering kick. That's the new word declutter declutter. Okay Yes, it's important, but there's more. I mean, there's organizing comes after decluttering and then cleaning comes after organizing and You need all three and people are like focused on what to get rid of I have too much stuff I have too much stuff my big thing is you don't have too much stuff You have the wrong stuff and it's hurting your mental health the wrong stuff and things like Duplicates because you can't find the first one so you go out and buy the second one And then you've got triple kids because now you can't find the first two so it's or Things like it really what I mean the biggest thing is is things that don't feel good You know people talk about being attached to things, you know Sentimental things they have good feelings and they don't want to get rid of things but people keep things that give them bad feelings and Then they feel bad about themselves. And so that's the kind of stuff. That's the wrong stuff and No matter how much stuff you have if you have space and if it's the right stuff then quantity isn't an issue because you can organize, you know If you have the space and the Organization for things you can have a lot of stuff like in a craft room. You can have every color fabric you want That's not too much stuff. You could have You know a cricket and all these other Tools and all that kind of stuff. I don't you don't need to declutter that necessarily Unless it's binging you grief like if you bought this expensive piece of equipment And you feel bad because you shouldn't have spent the money And I'm not using it and it and it makes me feel bad every single time I look at it That's the kind of stuff you need gone a lot of times I've had clients who keep their divorce papers Okay, you need like the certificate of divorce of whatever it's called You know to show people with the name change or something like that But all the back and forth between a spouse and all the animosity and all the you know We don't have to keep all that yet. Why you know, it's like you're not a presidential library You don't have to keep every single thing to document your life And if it's gonna make you feel bad get it out of there and you know stuff that you used to do that you don't do anymore stuff that belonged to somebody who you were close with and Had a falling out with you know, I just finally decluttered decluttered got rid of I decluttered books because I moved into this office and I took a bookshelf and I looked at all of my books and I had books That were signed, you know dedicated By a person I had a falling out with and it hurts me every single time That I think about it because it was you know, I was very close very involved in Her life and she was very involved in my life and finally I'm like oh Plus my kid changed their name and doesn't want to see their original name. So a book signed to Joshua from The friend which I won't say It hurts me when I see it So I'm like, you know what even though it's signed and people feel like I can't get rid of a gift You kind of have to if it's going to cause you grief. That's the wrong stuff to have You just brought up two really interesting points The first one was you don't have to hang on to stuff forever and I think that's really important It immediately made me think of my employees. So when I have an active employee file because I'm a business owner I do have to keep track of those weird little conversations Because if I need to fire them or let them go for some reason I need to have all that stuff documented And so what we've done in order to kind of maximize and not you know Keep gobs of stuff everywhere is we've moved everything to electronic files So now it's nothing but a shared Google Drive where we have all of that stuff Documented and if somebody sends me a text I can upload the text into that file And if there's a document that's a paper document I can take a picture of it with my phone and I can upload it into that electronic file But you just made a really important point after the divorce do you need to save all that stuff? After I've let the employee go I usually hang on to it for about a year again. It's an electronic file It's not going to go anywhere But that gives me all the way till and far until the time I file my next set of taxes If for any reason I need to dip back into those archives and I need to look something up Or you know, did we pay this person on a certain day or was there a bonus that was given or whatever? Whatever the reasons are I have all that accessibility to that information But then after about a year after we've closed out all the records and all the books and that employee is Officially done with our company and I go ahead and I remove those files and I don't need to hang on to them forever So that was a really important point that you brought up because there's a time and a place to save stuff And then there's a time and a place to say hey We're done with this let it go and one of the things we've talked about here in the hoarding world and clutter corner Conversations is our paper documents because I know a lot of us are now moving electronically and that goes with our photos That goes with our tax records that goes with everything that we have And so I love the fact that you're bringing up the fact We don't need to hang on to stuff longer than we need to hang on to it. So, right awesome I call paperwork paper worst because and people hate the papers and that's what makes a whole lot of piles and They don't know what what do I need to keep what do I don't in my book? I have like a whole list. This is what you need This is what you can let go of or you only need the front page or whatever I mean, you only have so much space like a computer. You only have so many Terabytes or gigabytes or whatever of storage. So you have to just make decisions and know What I need what I don't need and if you don't know the information is out there and and then it becomes manageable but But people have this indecision because they don't know and that's another thing I tell people is If you need information to make a decision and that's what's causing the The hold up get being stuck. We'll then find out the information But paperwork definitely in fact, it's a very last thing that we do. I talk about organizing as an ongoing Habit like exercising. Okay, and so you have to start when you start working out, you know, you don't pick up a hundred pound weight And get overwhelmed and hurt yourself and you never go back to it again No, you start with little tiny things so you start with little tiny decisions that are not so consequential and you work your way up to the more important decisions and then and the harder decisions and Now that you've built up your decision-making muscles by the time we get to the paper worst then you already are in the habit and you already have established a habit of Knowing is this important? Do I need it? Does it cause me grief? Why am I keeping the rejection letter from the job? I didn't get why am I keeping the rejection letter from the? College that I wanted to get into What is this doing for me? Why do I need the ticket to Disneyland when my boyfriend left me there? Stranded after we had a big fight. You kind of don't You really don't and it hurts your mental health and that kind of stuff. I remember I Remember when I first started writing I sent my publication off to a Publisher and I got a rejection letter and I was like really hurt like I can't believe this is a really good book I can't believe I got rejected and then I got rejected again and again and again and again And I saved them all and I was gonna write a book called a hundred and one ways They told me no and I saved them. I saved them to motivate me to I'm gonna keep trying This is really good information and I want to get it out there And I got to the realization that I was like if nobody's gonna publish this. I'm gonna publish it myself I'm gonna go ahead and I'm gonna do this because I really still believe this is really good information And one of the things that triggered it and this goes back to why are we keeping things? Is there a reason why and I kept those letters to motivate me to just keep trying I'm gonna keep trying because how many ways can someone say no well about a hundred so far And that's the thing is like somebody would say you have too much right You don't have too much if that's what it's there for and you have the file space or whatever to keep it Or if you've digitized it and you have the computer space to keep it It's when you don't look at things and the problem is people don't know what they have You know, they become clutter-blind especially if you've lived in a house for a long long time Or you moved and all you see or you've moved and downsized You're never fully unpacked and all you see are the boxes or whatever you have no idea What's in there and why is it taking up space if I don't know what it is and that is an interesting point Yeah, because if you have stuff you've never unpacked do you really need it? and so one of it You know the exercise as we went through when we moved we put a bunch of stuff in You know you label it as you go But we put a bunch of stuff in the garage and we said if we don't open this within three months We probably don't need it and so when it came time to throw it away We were like do we need to open these boxes and go through is there anything in here that we're gonna really regret? Well, we haven't used it in the last 90 days in our new home And we added this stuff to these boxes because this was stuff we didn't really use a lot in the old home So before we open it and then remind ourselves of all the things we thought we needed we haven't used it at all like 90 days So we probably don't need it Can we just let it go and then that will give us more space to just organize and maintain the stuff that we have and we did We just let it go without rehashing it and then Regaining emotionally reattached to it all those things because you already you already looked at it and you made the decision and It was intentional and wasn't just last-minute stuff that you shoved in a box And that's the biggest thing is that people when they move a lot of time because that's my next book actually is this move is making me stress That's a great one because when they move chances are it's because It's another one of those stressful events like there's the top five stressful events Losing somebody losing your job You know I Can't think of what they are right now, but they all involve or most of them involve divorce whatever They all involve moving and so moving itself is one of the top five. So you add it with another stressful event and that's the last Place anybody or that's the last thing anybody wants to do in fact They're unable to do it because you can't make a decision when you're stressed, right? You're the way your brain works that I could explain the science. Well, I actually did I can't tell you the details at this moment There's a science to it and you cannot make a decision when you're stressed and so you Lot of people just throw things in boxes and and you know what you don't have to Decide if you but you do have to go through it at some point and it makes more sense If you don't say you're just downsizing and you're moving because you want to It makes sense to downsize first before and declutter before you even pack because why are you gonna pay for the move? And it costs money for the space it costs money for the pounds It costs money for the time it takes so lot of times people bring over all this stuff Oh, well, you know and they haven't looked at it. They don't know what it is. It's been sitting in their closet forever and And then it sits and takes up space in the garage or they put it in storage unit, which makes no sense and now They've paid and they keep paying and they keep paying for when they finally open up and they say oh, this is junk Why did I do that? I mean plus movers sometimes they pack up your garbage Weird when we moved they just packed up the garbage can I mean the trash baskets without even emptying them So if you have somebody else packing for you and you have no idea what they are so If you've already looked at it like you did and said, you know, this is the maybe pile Because when you declutter, I definitely always have a maybe pile either. It's an instant. Yes Like you're an instant like you know, yes, I need to keep this and there are think people say I can't make a decision But you really can there were some things, you know, you need to keep my birth certificate Okay, I need this my phone my phone charger. Okay. Those are instant. Yeses the then there's instant nose It's broken. You can see it. It's garbage. It does It doesn't work anymore or you It shouldn't even be in the house, you know Didn't make it all the way out to the garbage. That's an instant No, but anything you have to think more than two seconds about I call it the two-second rule If you have to think more than two seconds put it aside Put it in the maybe pile and then go on because people get derailed by trying to make that decision right make the decision and Time runs out and nothing gets done or they get flooded with emotion usually You know negative emotions And then they just stop and it just It's a never-ending battle if you think you always have to do it all You don't have to make every decision. In fact, I talk about a whole procedure a set of steps and The first step is just yes or no and If you can't make it then it's maybe after you've organized what you've said yes to then if there's room you can add Sometimes the maybes like I really like this set of champagne Flutes and you know, maybe we'll want to toast a job or a birthday or an anniversary and I'll have you know a dinner party and everybody needs a champagne flute, okay But if I don't have room in my cabinets and it's going to be sitting there on that off chance that maybe this will happen Then if I have room, I'll keep it if I don't I Don't and you won't know that until you organize so an interesting point of that And this is what we do in our household, but it's along the same lines I'll try to get rid of something and my husband will say no, I'd like to keep that and that's would be our maybe Do we want to get rid of it? Do we want to keep it? Maybe we're not so sure Can we both agree that at some point we're going to get rid of this? Yes, we both agree Okay, we don't have to get rid of it today But as long as we both agree that we can get rid of it at some point that lets us already know what plants the seed We're going to get rid of this and so then I if I have the space and I put it back in the cupboard or I put it back In the closet and it's not interfering with anything. We're not tripping over it. It's not a hazard to anyone There's plenty of space for it. It's just that we're not using it. Why do we still have this? We've both agreed. We're going to throw it away, but not today And then the next time we do the cycle through again and we're doing that closet of those cupboards We pull it out again and we say we've both agreed in the past that we're going to throw this away is today the day And it might have been that just enough distance has passed that he's like, yeah You know, we haven't even used it since last time we had this conversation Let's go ahead and get rid of it and oddly enough we've got this set of dishes where he keeps saying no Let's hang on to what we don't have to throw it away today And I mean like we're 21 years into our marriage now and we haven't thrown that set of dishes away yet Nor have we ever used them since we've been married So there's something about that set of dishes that he is hanging on to but yet we've both agreed to get rid of them So when we move again, I'm guessing that's the time that we're not going to take them to the new place because we have a Lot less cupboard space in the new place So we won't be taking them with us But until today I guess they can still hang out because they're in the cupboard and they're not hurting anything and we have The space and all the things right A lot of times people keep things Also that they don't can't get rid of yet because it's a dream that they're not ready to let go of So maybe your husband has this idea that you're going to have a big party in everybody needs More plates or you know, he wants to have backyard barbecue in the city using paper He's gonna use those plates or people have Christmas plates and they think oh, we'll keep this because you know It'll be nice to have Christmas and then they realize they have, you know a set of 20 plates And that's a lot of dishes to wash and eventually they're gonna say, you know, let's just do paper, but I call garages the home of broken dreams because They're always filled with things that people think that they're going to do or used to do Dream about doing and then it becomes obvious, you know It's just not going to happen people hold on to things for the grandkids, okay? And then guess what they don't even have kids or Their kids aren't going to have kids and it's obvious that it's not happening or the stuff they saved the you know It the stains come out, you know, if it's old and you think it's a clean thing and then you get these yellow stains or the elastic Is worn out or whatever it is you've saved. It's like well now it's not going to serve that purpose or you find it and then you say um, I always I'm saying now that if you find something and You've saved it all these years. It's like this is the moment that you saved it for I want to show my kids my high school career And I've got all this memorabilia from high school that now they're in high school now. They're going to Enjoy it. So you go through it with them and you've explained it and you've seen it and you enjoyed it And that's it. I mean this is the moment that you saved it for or people And then what happens to that moment after then do you get rid of it after that moment? Yeah, you can or it reduce. I mean my big thing is Keep the best reduce the rest. Okay, you don't have to I mean You do want to keep the best or the thing that's most meaningful If you're going to if you have a yearbook and it's this thick, you know and And you have to decide do I have room for this yearbook or do I want to fit everything in a smaller box? Okay, well you could rip out the pages that you're on or that have the People who signed it that you want to care about, you know, you don't have to keep the whole thing I just heard about some people with cookbooks who love cookbooks In fact, I have a friend who's just like a cookbook addict and she gives them for presents And I've helped her declutter years and years ago just her cookbooks And they took up shelves and shelves and shelves, but I just heard somebody else Suggest that you go through the cookbooks with your family And you pick out the recipes that they think They'll actually ever eat And you rip it out. I know it seems wasteful, but you rip it out because that's what they're there for is to use and Then you can give away throw away whatever The rest of the book because it's taking up space and a lot of times it's taking up space in your kitchen Which is valuable prime real estate. And so you're um, it's taking up space and you want to actually Have it for something else, but you keep the recipes So there's that or Somebody was talking about I'm in a lot of these declutter groups And I see the kinds of problems that people have and it helps and I give advice and But it helps me know like, you know, what People are Thinking about and that's again you asked why I wrote a book It's because things are they're so obvious to me because I've been living them with them these ideas for so long Are like brand new to people and it Changed just like one little nugget of Information a tidbit of advice like changes their whole life And the ability to transform lines and people make people feel better about themselves That's what I'm all about. So but I I see people and their problems like somebody found waterford crystal That they haven't used and they're 70 80 years old or whatever And I said, you know what this is the moment you save this for get rid of all the junky classes Mismatched stuff that's in your cabinets now and use the waterford. So one breaks. Oh, well, but You're using it. You don't have to give it away. You know why, you know, this is not using it use it It's interesting when we got married We did not have enough money to have a great big fancy wedding reception and we got married a little bit later in life So we decided that instead of having a great big fancy wedding reception We would take the money and we would invest it into the house and that way if we ever sold the house We'd get the equity back from the party, but we would just invite people over kind of like an open house So that was going to be our big wedding reception. Well when it came time to serve food We thought well, we could Try to buy fancy dishes and you talk about the waterford crystal and all these things to make it a really elaborate event Or right at the county line where we go from north carolina over to south carolina There was this great big pottery store where they sold all the glass dishes that you rent from the the fancy places For a dollar a piece so you could get each individual cup saucers plates all the things that you need at a dollar a piece So we figured out how many people we were going to invite over and we went and we bought one of each of those pieces Instead of renting them because if we rented them we would be renting them at a dollar a piece But if we bought them then we owned them and then we could either sell them or we could give them away Or we could just use them so it made more sense twisted just buy them and then own them and if we broke them We don't have to replace them. We just own them and then what see they broke So we went ahead we bought these all and this is 21 years ago Well to this day every meal every meal be beaten has been on these glass fancy dishes that we bought And we just put different color chargers for different holidays underneath them So all the dishes like the fancy china and the dishes that my husband used when he was a bachelor and all these other Dishes we have never even used we just have used these Dishes clear glass dishes with the fancy designs in them that we bought for the originally for our wedding And what's really weird is we've lost a couple pieces over the years or one has dropped and broken or what again whoopsie But we we had lots of them, right? So we've got a cupboard full of all these dishes And the interesting point is Um instead of us not using the fancy stuff if you're going to have it use it It doesn't make any sense to have a bunch of really nice stuff And I know lots of people over the years We've cleaned hundreds of people's china cabinets where they have Dishes and silver and all different kinds of platters and things that they use once or twice a year on the holidays Like Thanksgiving or Christmas or mother's day because they don't want to ruin it or whatever They're saving it for a special occasion Why not make every day a special occasion and just really enjoy the heck out of it because we only live life once Right and if we're going to have a bunch of stuff we never use why hang on to it And then if we have it and it means something to us why not use it Right now tell people why why do your guests? Why are they deserve better things than you you deserve nice things just because you don't have anybody over You know use it and When you think about that it's like you deserve nice things Seriously, if you're holding on to like ratty towels and you buy you know some at Costco and you like them in their nights And you shove the old ones to the back or whatever. It's like Why do you have these you deserve nice towels? And so get rid of the junk You know keep the best reduce the rest if you're going to have backup Okay, but here's the thing people always go for their favorites You know you have those dishes, but you have you know a nice attachment to the glass And to the to the ones that you bought for the open house And so people are always going to go for their favorites. Even if you've got choices and choices and choices So my philosophy is You don't need all the backups because given the opportunity you're going to reach for your favorite mug You know you like big mugs. What do you need all those little tiny promotional mugs for? You know you think you know somebody's going to come over You're going to have a coffee party or Or you're not going to wash your glasses your coffee mugs for ages. I mean, there's just two of you, right? So It's taken up space and and it's aggravating. I mean my another one of my famous sayings is Aggravation is motivation If I have to be aggravated every time I go into this cabinet because I can't get what I want easily Then I'm going to organize declutter Get it to a place where it's easy because I don't need aggravation in my life I tell people whatever aggravates you most in the morning That's the first thing that you should be on your list for when you're going to declutter And you should make an appointment to declutter every day put it in your calendar You know if um if it's just as important as anything else you do people go to yoga That's in their calendar, you know Tuesdays and Thursdays and at nine whatever it is It's like put it in your calendar that you're going to organize at least three times a week Just like exercising so that you can get rid of this aggravation And then keep a list all the time, you know put it in the notes in your phone, you know note to self, you know Figure out this under the bathroom cabinet because it's annoying and I can't find you know The roles of toilet paper. I need because all this other stuff is you know taking the way or I can't see all the cleaning stuff I have I have all my cleaning supplies underneath The in the cabinet underneath the sink in the bathroom And I'm glad you brought that up because a lot of people don't have a time on their calendar when they're going to go Underneath the bathroom sink. They really don't it is never a priority and in the 32 years I've been cleaning as a professional house cleaner. I've never found somebody that's like Oh, yes on september 7th. I'm cleaning underneath my bathroom sink But what we do is this Because as a professional cleaner, we do offer that service So what we do is we trigger our clients by saying in the month of september This is when we're doing these types of chores cleaning out the the Winter closet the coat closets for winter time getting rid of last year's coats So that we have room for this year's coats because we know you're going to find a new fancy coat that you want this year But in september when it's really hot outside People are so forgiving and so easy to let go of their winter coat thinking. Oh, man, it's 100 degrees outside I don't want that coat sure take it but in the cold of the winter they're like I might need that the day after tomorrow, right? So we disconnect them from the time at hand and we get rid of all of their summer pool stuff in their pool noodles And the extra pool stuff that they had in the extra beach towels that they haven't used in years and all those things We get rid of those in the winter time when it's not top of mind Hey, let's go through that closet now where you've got all the pool stuff and the extra outdoor activity stuff And they're like man, it's frigid outside. It's freezing. We don't want to talk about swimming pool stuff now Great, let's get rid of it And that's been an easy way to disconnect them from the moment if we get rid of stuff off season But we'll trigger it in advance and we'll say this every year is when we do this This is when we go through the addicts. This is when we go through the garages We get rid of stuff specifically knowing that it's not going to be an emotional tug like oh, I'm going to need that tomorrow, right? They're like I'll never use that again and it's easy way out in the future to get rid of stuff, right? so I I do the Organizing best when I'm bringing stuff into the house So I have this concept called crap equilibrium. Okay. You only have so much room Okay, and so whatever you bring into the house the crap that you bring into the house It's taking the place or it should take the place of something that you already have Because you say you're shopping you're shopping and you go out and you see Um, a beautiful tablecloth. Okay, so you have a tablecloth and you bring it in and you're trying to put it away in your tablecloth Drawer is overflowing and You like this one the best that's why you bought it if you like it better than whatever you have So don't shove your thing that whatever you have to the back Take it out. That's the time to give it away I'm thinking about under the sink in the bathroom when I buy the big things of toilet paper And now I'm down underneath there. It's like well. What is this stuff? You know, I'd like to be able to just get to my toilet paper And you pull the stuff out and you're like, oh, this shouldn't be there. That shouldn't be there a lot of times people A lot of times clutter comes because people are coming over And they're having company which is a great motivator but people Just shove things places to hide them So, you know, I have company coming over the bathroom list needs to look nice Whatever's on the counter gets thrown under the sink. Okay, and Never thought about again, unfortunately until you have to put a Costco sized package of toilet paper under there and then again aggravation is motivation And you want to go through that so whenever you're bringing something home, whether it's because you bought it or You inherited it or you're getting hand-me-downs, you know for the kids, whatever it is That's the time to go through what you already have In the closet or cabinet that this new thing is going to go in or the drawer that the new thing is going to go in because It only helps so much space and whatever new thing came in is going to be your favorite So whatever you had as backup Because whatever you used to have you had a favorite and then you had backup the backup you can get rid of now because your Used to be your favorite is going to be backup and now you have a favorite and that's the one you're always always going to use That's how I People always say well, what how do you pick what to declutter? It's like well pick your favorites because that's all you're going to use anyway Like office supplies. Okay. I have a ton of pens I know I have too many pens right people always say I have too many pens. I have too many Crayons. I have too many this I have too many that And I'm like well, what's your favorite kind of pen? Now people don't think about that, but you have a favorite You know what feels good in your hand Keep those get rid of the others because you're always going to go for your favorite pen Even if it still works even if the other ones still work and they're useful But they you know, that's another decision. Is it useful? Is it useful to somebody? Is it useful to me? No. Okay. Is it useful to somebody? Great. Donate it And and if it's not useful to anybody, that's trash. These are the questions that you have to ask yourself, but You have to keep that crap equilibrium And otherwise you're just bringing way too much in with no place to put it And then it gets stacked up and becomes the clutter pile a lot of people's clutter. I can't believe it they Buy these things they spend all this money And they don't put it away and they don't use it and they don't know they have it because again Plutter blind you pass by it you forget your habit And then they feel bad about getting rid of it because they spent all that money well, if you get in the habit the healthy habit of Putting away things That you bring home new And getting rid of the thing that it's replacing Then you never have to worry about I'm not using this Because it's hidden under some pile and I have to keep it now because I feel bad about spending all that money Can we talk about that for a second? Because that's a big hang up that we get a lot where people have spent money and it's hard earned money And they're buying things because those things either represent a dream that they have like in in my next version of myself I'm going to be Eating breakfast out on the patio drinking out of these really fancy mugs So they buy the fancy mug and like you said, then they don't take the time to have the tea out on the patio And they don't use the fancy mug. So where where is that in the The lineup of being clutter free and organized where you actually make the time to use the things you bought Because they were going to you you bought them because you were buying a dream What are you going to take the time to live the dream that you bought the stuff for? And I tell people also that I encourage people to dream because that's what gives you the motivation to declutter the space That needs to be decluttered. For example, maybe you don't go on your patio because it's a mess and there's you know junk actual junk hanging around and You know your Furniture is falling apart or whatever it is. It's not comfortable out there, but you still have that dream I really would love to go on this patio because if it was nice, I would be out there every day Having my morning coffee and everything would be relaxed and great. Okay. Now you have a reason You've got the why when the why becomes stronger than the why not That's the perfect time to declutter organize and actually get to live the lifestyle that you dream about So for every room that's decluttered, everybody's got some back room or whatever. That's a mess And they just throw things in there. It doesn't matter because it's already cluttered anyway So they just get that's you know the throw in their pile when you don't want Maybe you know, maybe you just don't feel like putting it away that moment So it gets thrown in there, but if you dream about it and it's like wow I would really love to have a meditation room and this has such bright light and it's really It feels good to be in here when I don't have all this crap around So then now you've got your motivation to clean because otherwise cleaning and decluttering and organizing and all of that feels like a chore But if you've really got The motivation the why what it's going to feel like when it's done and this room becomes this Not only that but you can get buy-in say you have teenagers and you need them to help you Um And or your husband or whatever and the last thing they want to do is clean up If you say could you help me organize the back room? Oh, that's gonna you know get the response that you can imagine It's like no Let me check no My husband's very creative with his spare time. He wants to go write his children's books So it's like the last thing he wants to do is organize, but if I said Hey Can you help me move the rooms around so that we can create this beautiful new office? That we can write in and it becomes our Writing room and it gets the morning light and it feels really good and it could also be the guest room Then you can have them buy into that dream when you have them buy into that dream You've got the help all of a sudden now. It's like great and you've got something specific to say Can you move this bed to this room and bring in the desk? Okay now, they know exactly what to do It's not like they look at it overwhelming though You know because you have the vision and you're sharing the vision and that's really What you do because when you buy stuff like your cups like the exercise equipment That sits in the closet like everything, you know, you have this idea of who you want to be And then you're just not set up To be that person, but if it were set up You would be you know and so And then you feel that I want to I want to stop right there for a second Because if you're looking to the future at the best version of yourself and in the best version of myself We go out every morning and we sit on the patio and we have the cup of tea in the morning What happens then if you create the space for that and you get the patio furniture ready to do that There's nothing then stopping you from becoming that person except you and this happened to us Literally this last week we upgraded our furniture on the patio and as we upgraded it's old furniture that we've had But we then sanded down any rust moments and we You know restained it with the the rust olium rust proof paint and all that stuff when we fixed up the patio And then lo and behold It doesn't do anybody any good and what's all the work for unless you actually are willing to use it So literally I got my husband up an hour earlier than normal And I said hey, let's go out and have breakfast on the patio and watch the sunrise He's like why would I do that because i'm sleeping in and I said because we just spent a lot of time and energy Fixing up the patio because we wanted to do that and the news flash No one is coming to graduate us from getting out of bed at this time in the morning to getting up earlier And creating those moments it is up to us to do that We get to do that and so if you don't get up right now We're going to miss that window and then later in the day you're going to wish Oh, I got the patio furniture ready and I had this vision and yet I never took action on it So there's one more step beyond just getting the place ready and that's graduating yourself from the old you to the new you So lo and behold Day one day two day three day four I kept waking him up every day an hour early and i'm like hey, let's go have breakfast out on the patio And so then he would get up and we would go out and we would do that Okay, well what happened is today He gets up early nobody wakes him up. I go in there and he's already making the bed I get up much earlier than he does but he's already in there making the bed I'm like, whoa, look at you. You're already up for the day He goes. Yeah, because we've been going walking and then we come back and we have the breakfast out on the patio So he says, uh, I'm really liking this new version of me And I said what changed because there was this many years where there wasn't that version of you And he said I never knew this version of me was possible And I said now that you're trying this out for a week or two. How do you like it? He said I'm kicking myself in the pants that I didn't do this years ago I feel like I wasted so many years where I could have I could have been an early riser And I could have gotten so much done and he's so pleased with himself It's eight o'clock in the morning and I've done my workout for the day and I've had my breakfast I've done my meditation and I've already resolved all these things I was going to do for the day and I paid some bills that that that's eight o'clock in the morning And I'm like happy bell. Yay, you know And the space is there and you've created the space so you've created the lifestyle And that's really important because if you feel stuck and you don't like what's happening And you want to be different and you can't physically move out or you know, you watch hgtv And you see these beautiful homes get these makeovers and you know Or they move into a brand new home and everything is clean and pristine Or they go to a hotel and there's no clutter around and you feel different in that space Well, then let's make that space different so that you can feel that and not feel bad People go around feeling bad about themselves all the time and it's not healthy and it's not Fun and it um and it makes them feel less than and there's no reason why they should So a lot of people they just say, oh, I'm a terrible person. My house is so cluttered. I'm a hoarder I'm you know this that the other thing and I'm so ashamed to have people over and they feel all these negative feelings And it's like wait a second It's just a circumstance. I mean if you were a real hoarder with clinically, you know with the definition and You know part of the dsm and I go into exactly what that means people use the term hoarder loosely and And there's a natural real Thing that's a problem But if you just have too much stuff or you got or your house is cluttered because you got hurt like I just Broke my arm and you can't see my hands right now, but I did notice that I talked with my hand So my finger showed up. I broke a finger. I broke an arm And I know stop stop busting yourself up And I feel for people because I've done people's houses where they just are in pain They're physically unable to do things and I'm watching my house get more and more cluttered because I'm the organizer my kid and my husband, you know my husband thinks he's cleaning up organizing because he Piles things nicely, you know, he tetrises things so they're all nice and Looks orderly, but he never gets rid of this stuff And it's like no we got to put it away or get it out of here or put it in the garage or whatever needs to happen But I was sitting here for months already Because I got hurt may 25th and I've been sitting here And only this week I've been able to start doing things and so I couldn't take it Like I have to get up because it's hurting my mental health, you know, it's like, okay Maybe I'm physically healing but mentally I'm like going crazy. So I feel for people who do that Because then they're stuck and then they feel bad, but if that's why your house is a mess There's nothing wrong with you. And if your house is a mess because It's just a mess. Maybe you're neurodivergent your ADHD and you don't have those executive functioning skills because um Organizing is one of them prioritizing and initiating and all those things are executive function skills You're not a bad person. You're neurodivergent, you know Plus you start and you get distracted and whatever and it's not set up In order for you to succeed and you feel terrible because you're a mess. Well Because you don't have that skill But do you feel terrible if you can't sit down at a piano and play a concerto? Do you feel terrible if you can't pick up a paintbrush and look like You know Picasso or an impressionist. No, you don't feel bad about yourself because you can't do that It's just a talent. You don't have well Organizing is a talent. Maybe that you don't have But you can get better at it just like you can learn piano and you can learn painting and you may never be Picasso or Mozart or whatever But you can get better about it and then you feel better about yourself and my whole thing Is when you start to organize and get your house in a way that actually feels like A space that you want to be in then You start feeling transformed yourself and like your husband with getting up in the morning and he's transformed So you've transformed a space A room and now he's transformed because now he's in that space and the energy is different and it feels good And yeah, you might feel regret because you didn't start sooner But you're doing it now You know, it's like I feel bad that I didn't use crystal all those years But i'm doing it now and I don't have to continue to feel bad. I can feel better about myself and I'm not a bad person and that's the thing. Oh, this is so good So many people they feel like they're bad people And you know they're successful in every other part of their life and they can't get it together at their house Well, I heard you on another podcast say well people are busy You know and they're busy working and they don't have time and that's why they hire us People are ashamed to bring people over even a professional organizer. They're too embarrassed to have me in their house I'm like, look, I'm not judging you If it were easy I wouldn't have a job So it's not You working of a job our time is up today. Please. Oh my goodness. This is so awesome We've learned so much from you today and we're gonna have to have you back. This is just phenomenal I I could just listen to you all day and we've we've learned so much I see by the comments also that we've had just an enormous Amount of people following along and thanking you for your time and your expertise today Please share with our listeners where they can go to find you and then I will leave links to all of that in the show Notes below so those watching the replay and also everybody that joined us today can participate Okay, well, um neatly arranged.org is my company. I based out of Los Angeles, but I do virtual Consulting so I've been doing that this summer while I'm hurt and people are really getting a lot out of it So that's one thing. Um, you can buy my book and sounds exactly like me And you'll see things that I've talked about here and more And that's on amazon and every other online book bookstore Have online Parts to their website so you can go to anybody and find that I have a facebook page And I have a facebook group called this mess is making me stress I would love people to come to the facebook group and join so that I can Encourage people so everybody else can encourage people and I can give advice and you can learn from each other And pick up tips and all that so this mess is making me stress Is a facebook group neatly arranged dot org No.com. Sorry neatly arranged.com is my website and You can go to author pages on amazon. There's author pages on On facebook too, but I haven't done anything much on that and my daughter my 21 year old college graduate is about to Hook up all the social media stuff because you know, I'm of that age where I didn't grow up with it and it's a lot of work and um I'm your friends I'm the organizer. She's the social media queen. So she's all that stuff either. Yeah, she's about to do all of that So I'll be active because I have an instagram account, but I'll be active on instagram And uh tick tock and all I'm going to start making Reels So just talking like this to people giving little bits every day to encourage you and to Make you feel better about yourself and to give you real good practical advice from a jewish mother Who's a recovering perfectionist? Who knows and has lived? This life and it's like I said, it's a healthy habit. That's all it is nobody Comes to it naturally. I don't think they've just Either had it as a kid as a habit and brought it up with them or they're newly making it So just like working out you got to make it a habit at least three times a day schedule it and um, and you can also Get the e-book also if you're not a reader if Reading is distracting or you don't want my book cluttering your house You can go get the e-book on amazon and read it there and also Barnes and Nobles Nook whatever they all have it so awesome. Thank you so much for joining us today And I want to thank everybody here for uh for chiming in and for also participating with us This show doesn't mean anything unless you guys show up unless we get your comments and unless we get your feedback So I really want to thank you for going along on this ride with us and thank you again dana for joining us This was so insightful and very helpful