 It's like being a litigator, eventually maybe all you have to do is use your name, right? Yeah, yeah. Then I go to, I go, you know, when I had thyroid cancer, I got to go back and do scans, make sure it's and come back because they took my thyroid out, right? So I'm at the, getting my scan done and the girl is like, so what, so what do you do? I saw a body language expert. She goes, oh, that sounds, you know, that sounds good. So then I'm thinking she's in here doing the scan stuff. She's into all this, the minutiae, neurological, everything. So I go on this, this almost around. Yes. Well, it is fascinating because I'm using big words that I never use. And after this big, long, almost soliloquy of how bad what I do is she goes, yeah, your pants are zipped. All right. You ready? Yeah. All right, here we go. I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst. And I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation and body language. And I created the number one online body language course, body language tactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase. I'm Chase Hughes. I'm a behavior expert did 20 years in the US military published number one bestselling book on influence, persuasion and people reading. And I teach corporate America and the general public today. Greg. Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, written 10 books on body language and behavior, put together this body language tactics.com course with Scott. And I spend most of my time on Wall Street and in corporate America. Excellent. All right. Well, today we're going to talk about somebody who keeps we every time we put a video out, we get at least, I don't know how many we get people saying, do Patsy Ramsey, let's hear about the Ramsey dude. Talk about John Bonnet. So we're going to do that today. So it's come to the point where we can't put it off any longer. So today we're going to talk about, we're going to take a look at Patsy Ramsey. Greg, you're the one that found the video. We're going to use you and tell us a little bit about it. Yeah. And there's some irony to this. I'm going to almost be a cold reading today because I found this video a few months ago when people kept harassing us for this one. And this is a, this video is from 2000. So a few years after the John Bonnet Ramsey murder and they've released a book and they're back in front of the cameras. And I think it speaks for itself past that. This has become the hottest one we constantly get asked for. I honestly don't find it as interesting as other cases often. But when other people ask for it, I think it's good for us to all spend our time looking at this. And if you don't know this case, this is one of those long running cases. No one has ever figured out. Nobody knows what happened exactly on that Christmas day or Christmas Eve. So it's a timely one. I think it'll always be around and people will always be conjecturing. What we don't plan to do is say, this is what happened. It was, you know, Colonel Mustard in the study. We're not going to do that kind of thing. We're just going to tell you what we see. We're not going to say she's guilty or innocent. We're going to say what we think in terms of this. We're not trying to be the court here. There's way too many people looked at this case. This is the behavior panel's opinion of what we see in Patsy. Excellent. Okay. The first thing we're going to do is we're going to listen to the 911 call because that, a lot of it's centered around that. There are two parts to it. The first part is the 911 call itself and then we're going to listen to the last part of it, which we won't hear in this first video, but we'll hear it again later, where it was questionable about what went on in there. So here we go. She's blonde. She's old. How long ago was this? I don't know. I just filled the notes. Are my daughters... Does it say who took her? What? Does it say who took her? I don't know. There's a ransom note here. It's a ransom note? It says FBTC victory. Okay. What's your name? Are you that? Patsy Ramsey. I'm the mother. Oh my God. Please. I'm okay. I'm sending an officer over. Okay. Do you know how long she's been gone? No, I don't. Please. We just got out and she's right here. Oh my God. Please. Okay. Please. There's nobody. I am honey. Please. Take a deep breath. Please. Hurry. Hurry. Here. Patsy. Patsy. Patsy. All right, Greg. What do you got? Yeah, guys, I'm always talking about 911 calls. They're among my favorite things because when a person has a true emergency, they're there to tell you the story and get as much information to you as possible. I need you at my address right now for this problem. I need police to look for my daughter. Not please, please. Not telling you their story, but telling you these stories. Usually responding to prompts. Now, people can be hysterical. If you lose a child, if something happens, you're going to be hysterical. But you typically don't control release information. Control release of information sounds like storytelling. Mark, you talk about storytelling a hell of a lot on these things. And this is storytelling. It feels awkward to me. And all this HBTC victory. Who cares about any of that? Who cares what's in the note? What you want is the police right now. You're beginning to release a story. And those are typically alibis when you're doing that. So this is a red flag conversation for me. Never mind all the, it feels like bad acting to me. Now I'm not in her situation. I can't say what she's normally like. I don't see her enough. But this looks like telling her story, not the story. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So here's what I want you to do. I want you to replay that. And I want you to breathe along with the caller there because what I want you to see is whether you can sustain that level of breathing in out, in out, it's pretty rapid. So it's real panic breathing. But can you sustain it without giving up and going, wow, I'm going to fall over. I'm going to faint because here's the thing that level of breathing without having an adrenaline, you would stop. So here's what I'm going to say. That's real panic breathing from this person. There must be some adrenaline in the system. There's some kind of real panic going on because otherwise she wouldn't be able to breathe like that for so long, I would suggest. And I've tried this again and again and again with lots of performers. How do you do panic and do it take after take after take after take and not collapse, fall over, forget the words that you've got. You have to have some adrenaline going through your system to burn up that oxygen. So real panic going on here. Now, I don't know why there's real panic going on. I can think of a whole bunch of reasons, I don't know why, but there's something real emotional going on there. Again, heightened emotions are very, very difficult to sustain. Most of the heightened emotions you've ever had, you won't have been able to sustain them for more than about 10 minutes. And very quickly, you will have peaked, you'll have found your body start to get tingly, your legs start to go from underneath you. So again, breathe along to that video and see how long you can sustain it for. There's something real going on there. Scott, what do you got? Hey, Greg. Yeah, we can't see you. Are you about to waterboard us, Greg? I turned it off. Oh, I do something. Always get, always get worried when it all goes dark piece of felt goes out like that and Greg slowly, very worried. Don't do that to me. Okay. You ready? Yeah. All right. Well, here's what I got. That's Greg and I did a whole that which this is from, from our course, the truecrimeworkshop.com. And so we've studied these, some of these things and this one I've been able to spend a little time with. And like Greg was saying earlier, there are specific things you say when you're in a panic, when you're calling 9-1-1, you're calling the people that are going to help you the quickest and the fastest and get there to get you as much help as possible. Two or three things for me lit up in here. Right out of the gate, she says the right thing. She gives her address. That's the first thing she does. Usually you'll hear that when cops call, when police officers call. The first thing they'll say is the address and they'll say our house is on fire or whatever the problem is. But then in this case, when there's a kidnapping, she wouldn't have said we have a kidnapping. Nobody says that. She would have said my daughter's gone, my baby's gone, somebody's got my kid, something like that. And then when she would ask questions and there was a note, it takes her meant to get to the part where she says a ransom note, but she makes sure to say that, which means she's read it. So that part of it is a little bit iffy for me. I don't think she would have hung up at the end. I think she would have kept talking and trying to communicate and find out when this help is coming. Because she's saying, please, please, please help me give this. There's a 911 call we have in this course where the woman has, her children have been killed. And she's screaming just like the Patsy Ramsey is screaming there toward the end when she goes, oh my God. I think what's firing her adrenaline off there, Mark, is the fact that she's, as she's doing this, she's realizing the depth of the situation of where they are in it. And I think that's what's helping fire off her adrenaline to get her excited as she moves forward through her communication with the 911 dispatcher. So I think that's what we're hearing there. We are hearing some panic because when that happens, you've got to lean into it like this is, and I think your body, even with a lot of actors, they'll go ahead and lean on into the panic mode. I think that's what we're hearing at this point. But I think she would have stayed on, I don't think she would have just hung up. I think she would have kept talking to her until they showed up. I don't think she would have hung up at this. So those are a few things in there that bother me. Chase, what do you got? Let's just talk about language here. You guys covered a lot. If your house was burning, would you report we've got a fire or we have a gas fire? And would you say I found the ransom note or would you say I found a ransom note? Let's say you found something insignificant. You're staying in a hotel and there's a cockroach in your room and you call the front desk. You're not going to say I found the cockroach in my room. The word the suggests familiarity with the other person. If I say I'm going to meet you at the restaurant, you will have to know exactly what I mean. And I think it's subconsciously was a way for her to imply familiarity and understanding with the situation. Excellent. Okay. Any cockroaches in your Jamaican hotel, Chase? So far, no. I'm in Tower Isle, Jamaica right now. And it's been good. I bet if you find a cockroach, it'll be a very specific. It will be a cockroach. If it's on the beach, it would be nude. Am I correct about that? Yes, I think all the cockroaches are nude here. Okay, good, good. All right, let's move along. Lovely. Say who took her? What? Does it say who took her? I don't know. There's a ransom note here. It's a ransom note? It says S-B-T-C victory. Please. Okay, what's your name? Are you that? I'm the mother. Oh my God. Please. Okay, I'm sending an officer over, okay? Please. Do you know how long she's been gone? No, I don't. Please, we just got out of here. Oh my God, please. Okay, well, I am, honey. Please. Take a deep breath. Please, hurry, hurry, hurry. Patsy, Patsy, Patsy. Footprints outside the house. No evidence of footprints. I think it said no footprints in the snow. And we have seen photographs that were taken the morning of the 26th. By the police. By the police of each of the door entries around the house and there was no snow. Urban myth. All right, Chase, what do you got? There are what I describe in my training. We've talked before about something called a confirmation glance. If you're looking at an accomplice, you'll probably do it before you answer. If you're looking at two interrogators, you'll probably do it after you answer. But there are five ways you can look at someone that's with you in a conversation to gain something from that person. And they spell out the word crash. The first one is confirmation. It says, I want the other person to nod. The next is relief. Somebody speaks for us and we're glad that they took the opportunity. The next is approval. I'm requesting for the other person to nod or affirm what I'm doing. Then we have suggestion. And this is a request for them to continue for me or add some details for me. And finally is help. Spelling out crash. H is help. And this is a requesting for rescue. Things have gone south in the conversation. I need a bailout. I need a mulligan here. I need you to help me out. And we see this relief glance in this. The moment that his wife speaks, starts speaking to answer the question, we see this relief in his face that somebody else has answered it. And I think it's interesting. There's a strong chin raise in this woman's face by what she's saying by the police. And her statement is kind of showing a little indignation and welcoming a challenge. This is what we do when we want to challenge another primate and expose these vital organs. We see it in bar fights, even drunk people throw their chin up and their arms out. I think that's interesting. And right at the end of the clip, we're starting to see something called a pre-swallow movement, where this throat is starting to go up as a result of a saliva dump into the mouth. All in, I think there's a few credibility issues with the statement. Scott, what do you got? All right. I agree with you 100%. I didn't catch that swallow thing though. Fascinating. Here we see her head's tilted as she's talking. If you say playing poker, when poker players are playing, when they do this and they expose that side of their neck and they get that head back, that denotes, it indicates confidence. So here she's given information that she knows or that she believes to be true and she's sort of like sticking it up this interviewers because from, you can tell her, I would suggest her attitude would be more of a holier than thou at that point because she's almost like, I've got a huge nose, I can talk about noses. She's almost looking down her nose at her as she's, as you say that, as her head goes back. And the tone of voice is that dominant tone of voice you use when you're talking to a child or you're mad at someone and you're saying, well, I'll tell you what I do know. And the same thing with her, we'll see as we go along, her illustrators get larger as we go, illustrators of the ways your brain focuses on specific words and emphasizes specific words or phrases, just like I did then. I did then. And so we're seeing a lot of that and it gets more predominant as we go along. But the longer it goes, the more into it she gets of being more dominant over this person. And we'll talk about some other things that I'm sure everybody's caught them as we go through this where she's being that way as well. Mark? Yeah. So arrogance, condescension, we see exactly as been said there. The chin comes up, which means she ends up looking down the nose in condescension. That's the over display of kill points on the body in close proximity, basically saying you have no power. I don't think you would strike or if you did strike, I don't think it would have any effect on me. So she's wanting to display power at this point. I think that's because she's wanting to control the story, their story. This is about them getting their story out. And so she uses this idea of how forceful she is. There was no snow. Almost said it there, fake news. She says, but instead she says urban myth and urban myth was the kind of 80s, 90s version of fake news. She's saying everybody else has controlled this narrative. They've made up stories about this now I'm taking control of the story. This is our story. So I think that's what people don't like. This isn't my first indicator of she's not a very likable person in this situation because she wants to assert power. That as a good generalization across many cultures is a female asserting power is not looked on well. It's often looked on well by men and women. They don't neither like it. They want the women to share power, but she's taking control of this. I'll show you later on how actually she's very similar to Margaret Thatcher, the 80s prime minister of the UK, very, very similar vocal range, very, very similar gestures as well. Again, not a likable woman by many people at the time. So assertion of power, assertion of the narrative. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so you guys have gotten almost everything I had. There are a couple of other small things. Number one, you could have just as easily finished this sentence with you stupid twit. That's the whole demeanor that she has when she's talking to this woman. It's condescending. It's arrogant. It's telling. You always talk about that pawing, that pushing down. She's pushing down when she's talking to this person more. And the other piece that she does is she does what I typically refer to authority by association. Hear her blast police out. She uses that word like it gives her some kind of authority. And we'll hear her again, do what I would call holy ground or take some kind of authority figure and use it to validate her story. That's the only thing I saw that you guys haven't mentioned. I'm a great round cover. I think all of this, you're dead on. I think when I was watching this, all I could think was letting them eat cake. Famous last words. She's condescending. She's looking down her nose. And it's hard to like her. And if you don't like her, you're going to look for reasons why she did it. That's what I'll leave this piece of. Okay. Footprints outside the house. No evidence of footprints. I think it said no footprints in the snow. And we have seen photographs that were taken the morning of the 26th by the police by the police of each of the door entries and around the house. And there was no snow. Urban myth. This is Ramsey, the 911 call. There are contradictions about whether or not the phone was hung up and whether or not for some Burke came downstairs and was talking. Some police officers believe that they can hear that on an enhanced audio tape. Others say no. What do you say? We've not heard the 911 tape, but we understand from people who have heard it that it sounds like a bunch of chipmunks chattering and that it is almost unintelligible. All we know is that Burke did not come downstairs that morning, nor did we say to him, you know, go back or whatever it is they say that it's set on the 911 tape. I phoned the police called 911 from the kitchen telephone, wall phone, hung up, dialed one set of our friends, hung up and dialed another set of friends and asked them to come quickly to help. How soon after that 911 call did you dial the first one? Immediately, immediately. So it seems to me like if you hang up the phone, you're not going to be able to place another call unless the phone is completely. This is another, there's been no logic applied to any of this case in my judgment. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So, you know, to your point, often Scott, this idea of loping, what I like about this is her story seems to kind of jump along quite well. It seems kind of okay. Again, the problem is I think for a lot of people is it just seems a little bit cold. You know, it doesn't have some of that variation. It doesn't have the cracks in the voice of emotion. And yet at the same time, in terms of, you know, looking for truth, it seems to romp along fairly well. Again, I don't think people like the forthright aggressive nature of which it loops along at. I don't think people like her assurity around this because, you know, everybody out there, we've all got ideas about what might have happened here. First point I pick up here of the, of the, what looks to me like lip grooming, you know, it's a lick of the lips, I would say in order to say, hey, I'm looking good. I want to look good for this. So it already feels to me like looking good is important to her. And, you know, I know, I think her daughter was obviously in pageants. I think she was in pageants. The idea of looking good and presenting well, my guess is, is massively important. And that comes across for me in the lip grooming. Oh, also this idea of social status and two sets of friends. So this is this idea of already, you know, I've got my whole crowd involved. I've got lots of friends that they're a set as well, strong social structure and looking good in front of the social structure. That's what I've got out of that. And Chase, I want to go to you. What do you got? Yeah, absolutely agree with you guys. I think there's some indignation at the beginning here with the question. And the mention of the 911 call and the sun coming downstairs produces immediate eye flutter, which I thought pretty telling. And we've not heard the 911 tape. And this is a reassurance and approval glance that we see here. And all we know is that Burke didn't come downstairs. We know nothing else. We know that there was no involvement. The one thing we're certain of is that he did not come downstairs. We know nothing else about anything. He just didn't come downstairs. And I fully agree with Mark. And this is the world that they live in is appearance and image and perception management. So most of her life pageants are about perception management. It's not about true beauty. It's not about a whole lot of other things that they might purport themselves to be. Perception management is the name of the game. And I think that has blood into many other areas of her life. And we see that here. Scott, what do you got? Right. I think we're seeing some really odd eye blinking behavior here. And this is the first time I've actually ever paid attention to it, where I've seen it like this. We do see the eye flutters at the beginning, but she blinks twice. Every time when she hears whether or not the phone was hung up when the interviewer says that, she blinks twice. When she says, son, Burke came down and was talking, she blinks two times there. And then she says some police officers believe they can hear that on the enhanced audio. She blinks two times there. No other time is she doing two blinks like that. So she may do it a couple of other times as we go down the road here. But in this thing, that seems to almost trigger her double eye blink, which I've never seen it before. That was really, really odd as far as that goes. And I agree with you guys on everything, on everything else. So Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so we always talk about fight or flight increasing blink rate. In this specific case, this is fight, almost guaranteed. This is not flight. This is how dare you attack me again. I can see it written all over and the double blink is a condemning double blink, I think. It's the how dare you ask that again. And it's a poke. She's ready for a fight. You can see she's ready for fight. She's not backing away from it and looking afraid. She's not, her lips are not getting thin. She's ready for going at this person's what I see. When she starts to talk, and she's nodding, and she's thinking, watch her head slow down. The speed of her nodding slows down as her processor kicks in. And she's thinking about how to answer this question. Love the confirmation glance. Love the connection, connecting glance. As she looks over to make connection and think, okay, I'm not alone in this. We're on the same page. And that you guys covered everything else. I think those pieces. Scott, I love the fact that you're catching that double blink. And I think fight or flight makes us blink more rapidly. And I'm a Southern boy. I was raised in the South. I can see a Southern woman looking at me and blink and rise twice and saying, oh, no, you didn't. I can see that written all over this woman. You know, if my grandmother had done something like that, I would have thought, oh, here it comes. Something bad's about to happen to me. So think about the park culture place, because we're all born capable of doing everything the other person's doing. And all culture does is add nuance to those meanings. That's all it does. So when somebody looks at you and goes, that means something. She's done it before and it's a method for I see fighter flight and she's after you. That's it. That's all I got. This is Ramsey, the 911 call. There are contradictions about whether or not the phone was hung up and whether or not for some Burke came downstairs and was talking. Some police officers believe that they can hear that on enhanced audio tape. Others say no. What do you say? We have not heard the 911 tape, but we understand from people who have heard it that it sounds like a bunch of chipmunks chattering and that it is almost unintelligible. All we know is that Burke did not come downstairs that morning, nor did we say to him, you know, go back or whatever it is they say that it's set on the 911 tape. I phoned the police called 911 from the kitchen telephone, wall phone, hung up, dialed one set of our friends, hung up and dialed another set of friends and asked them to come quickly to help. How soon after that 911 call did you get on the phone? Immediately, immediately. So it seems to me like if you hang up the phone, you're not going to be able to place another call unless the phone is completely hung up. This is another, there's been no logic applied to any of this case in my judgment. Cool. All right. Here we go. So what we'll do is this, we're going to play this, the last part of the 911 call. We're not going to comment on it. What we want you to do is you talk about it and you tell us what you think is being said in this because it's really tough to make out, I'm hearing one thing, but I'm not really even sure what that is. So why don't we do that? We're just going to play this for you. We'll play it, it'll go through three times and you'll listen to that and then you write what you think it says in the comments. Cool. All right. Here we go. This is Ramsey. It's my understanding that the Colorado Bureau of Investigation took your handwriting samples to the Secret Service. Do you know the results of that test definitively? No, I don't. I just, no, we had experts do the same kind of testing and it's my understanding that the people that we use trained the people from the CBI, Colorado Bureau, that administered the tests and they, on a scale of one to five, with five being absolutely no match, I ranked at a 4.5 with one being a perfect match. So we know. We don't know All right. I'll go first on this one. When she's nodding, yes. We see her squint when they talk about the Secret Service. She freezes and you see that those eyes squint up. So something's there. I don't think she knew that it happened because once they say that, once they throw in that jab at her, in other words, she comes back with, well, here's what I do know, that I'm not the person that did it and here's all the proof that tells why. That's what I'm saying. That stuck out to me like a red flag. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. I'm on the same page. Watch her pupils. There's a flash in her pupils in this. You don't get the opportunity to see very often. Her pupils go to pinpoint and then back out a little. When she does that squint thing, I'm with you, I think if she really believes that whatever she has, her expert's better than your expert is what she just said. My expert taught your expert. So there, I'll see your expert and raise you another. If she really believed that and didn't know about the Secret Service doing it, she probably would quickly go, uh-oh, there's a piece of data I didn't expect and the squint is data intake and what you call it, fake concern or concern. She's doing data intake. So those are really big things for me. And the other one is Mark, you brought up last time she's lip grooming. This is not lip grooming. That was a quick jut. That usually is distaste. That usually is disapproval, whatever. It doesn't, the Morris said it's our first no. It's how we push a nipple away from our lips. And so it's rejection of an idea, rejection of that. It makes me want to talk to her more about the handwriting. And in fact, guys, if you really want to know about the handwriting, there are hours and hours and hours of stuff about her handwriting, about her talking to in a deposition about the handwriting. So you can go and dig into this for yourself and not just look at what we're doing with body language. Chase, what do you got? Let's keep in mind, when they're talking about handwriting analysis, they're talking not about graphology, which is referred to sometimes as a pseudoscience. They're referring to the characteristic and nature of how letters are constructed and written and whether or not they match someone else, all the way down to pressure of the pen on the paper. Great color, great color. So right here she starts out discrediting the evidence instead of making any kind of denial, makes no denial, as a matter of fact whatsoever. And she says, it's my understanding and this is the first thing that any good lawyer is going to teach you to say during an interview. You always say it's my understanding and you can never be backed into any corner for the rest of your life. And I think that's just being used here. And I think it's interesting they would hire people to analyze their own handwriting to begin with. Mark? Yeah. So here's what we see again, is this playoff of status there instantly goes to, as Greg was saying, my graphologist is better than your graphologist, my graphologist, trained your graphologist. So kind of almost the resume statement or resumes at dawn, it's a dueling matches going on immediately. And here's why I think this is important for our perception of her is it's very aloof and high status. And I think what we want to see is the public from her is sorrow and loss. And she doesn't give us any sorrow and loss. So I think what we need to do as a public kind of watching this is go, what am I really wanting from her? And if she isn't able to give it to me, might I be against her? Might it cause a bias in me? I think her aloofness here easily triggers us into a bias against her because she is a mother. And from a mother, we want to see continued sorrow and loss around this. That's all I've gotten. I will bring up again as well this idea of the urban myth and the idea that in urban myths, in mythology, you often get children going missing. It's a classic of mythology and also infanticide, parents killing their kids as well. So again, as a public here, we are in this wonderful world of mythology of the most horrible crimes of parents killing kids or kids just going missing, being taken away by the fairies. So again, we've got to check in with ourselves around this and make sure that mythology isn't biasing us and that we can get to the real truth of what's going on here. Okay, let me leave it at that. Guys, this is going to be another McCann's for us. People are going to hate or love us because they made up their mind a thousand years ago and all their evidence is right. Their expert is going to be better than our expert. They're going to say this expert said that. So we're going to see that too. This is a mess. None of us know what happened in this house. And I always say, somebody says, well, it couldn't be, she couldn't have killed her child because she's not a murderer. And my answer is murder is a crime of passion and people do stupid things. Mrs. Ramsey, it's my understanding that the Colorado Bureau of Investigation took your handwriting samples to the Secret Service. Do you know the results of that test? No, I don't. I just know we had experts do the same kind of testing. And it's my understanding that the people that we use trained the people from the CBI Colorado Bureau that administered the tests. And they on a scale of one to five with five being absolutely no match, I ranked at a 4.5 with one being perfect match. So we don't know the result. And the ransom note was already written? I believe it was. I mean, it's very unusual for a ransom note to be this long. From what we understand from professionals we've talked with that after someone commits such a crime as this, they get the heck out of there. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so again, playing status, the idea of this is very unusual. This is very unique. This is very, very special. So again, this idea of the status coming forward, here's what triggers me around this furrowed brow, lots of helpfulness, lots of confusion, lots of expertise where you maybe shouldn't have any expertise. I think we've seen this time and time again with people who we know are not telling the truth. It's a usual trope of I'm going to be very, very concerned, really helpful, a little bit confused and actually quite knowledgeable about things that I really shouldn't be. Four or five big reg flags come up for me at this moment, probably the most concerning moment of all of these videos for me. Chase, what do you got? We have another great case of the missing perpetrator. Everyone here has talked to somebody who's done some stupid or bad stuff. And in 9 out of 10 of those cases, those people don't want to talk about the one who committed it. They don't want to talk about the perpetrator who did this. And as the video starts or as this clip starts, we see some false confusion, but it's confusion for agreement. It's looking confused with my face in hopes that it becomes contagious to the other person. And when she says someone did this, not kidnapper, not murderer, not potential rapist, it's someone. And when she says such a crime as this, it's not any of the harsh words, kill or murder or whatever else we could be saying. If that happens to a person's family member, there is a 99.9% chance they have no problem. And they're even very vocal about using that word to evoke emotion out of the person listening to them. If you think about the phrase, I did not have sexual relations with that woman. The same thing happens. Instead of saying sex, we change it to sexual relations. And when she says, at the very end, get the heck out of here, she actually does with her eyes. She escapes the conversation as fast as she possibly can in hopes for a subject change. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, this one kind of bothers me too, because when she says, or she says in the ransom note was already written, and she uses what I call fading facts. She starts getting quieter and quieter. The further along she goes, the quieter she gets. And she goes like, then when she says, in a crime such as this, when she's explaining, her head goes down to guard her neck. Because her neck, as after this point we've seen a lot of times, has been up. Going back to the, when she was talking about the 911 call earlier, we saw it go down and guard a lot. It was bouncing around and it guarded a lot down there when it was talking about if she had her involvement in the second part of the call. But when she says a crime such as this, that head comes back down and guards the neck. And then again, she continues to speak quietly as she goes along. So this shouts to me some guilty knowledge. Something's not right here. Something's not right here. Greg, what do you got? I had a few more sprinkles on what you guys have already said. Too much eye contact. Way, way too much eye contact. Mesmerizing eye contact. She breaks eye contact at the end, yes. But during this time, even when she's stammering as she's admitting that this was an unusual ransom note, which is probably a point that people are using to establish guilt, usually a ransom note would say, hey, give me some money. I got your kid. You know, it wouldn't say, you know, victory to the whatever she said. That's not usually what you expect. You don't expect three pages. You also, if you did something and it has become the place that is the most scrutiny and you wrote a three page thing, you're giving a real handwriting sample on a level nobody has ever done. And now they can compare it and they go look at your work. Now you probably are feeling a little dumb about that. So you may stammer and stutter your way through it. Way too much eye contact. She's almost trying to give you a, we will never find this guy because this is such an unusual thing. And this is just sprinkles on everything you guys said. I agree. All these pieces around distancing and all that, usually a person would say, whatever scumbag took my kid, I want their head. That's the way they approach it. Now a lot of this is just her personality, all that stuff, but the chin down and all this together, you should have a pretty good picture that we're all concerned here. That's it. Correct. And the ransom note was already written. I believe it was. I mean, it's very unusual for a ransom note to be this long. From what we understand from professionals, we've talked with that after someone commits such a crime as this, they, you know, get the heck out of there. Cool. We good? Yeah. Like that. Mrs. Ramsey. Your child's been killed brutally. And then someone writes out this ransom note. Why do you think that that's not feasible? Why do you think it was written before? Because I have been told by people who are experienced in this field that that is usually the way it happens. I have no previous knowledge about these kind of things, but we have been, you know, in conversation and in. We think about this every day. Every day. And we've sought out, you know, the top people in the field that know about how the criminal line works. And this is what we're going on. The profile that's in the book, you know, all that information is not from John. And for me, this is from from people that know what they're doing. All right, Chase, what do you got? If you're watching this, do me the biggest favor of all time and watch this clip and only listen to her responses and see if somebody offered you a million dollars to figure out what she's talking about. If you could figure it out. This is the most generalized, unnonspecific, noncommittal answer I've ever heard in any interview, I think in my lifetime. It's those people, these people, these techniques, this agency, those agencies, these people, all arguments are arguments from authority or an argument on authority. So if you told me, oh, I think she's on drugs and I my response would be, oh, where did you graduate pharmacology school? That's the argument of authority. And what they're doing is something called borrowing authority. So I am borrowing the authority of another agency or another group of people in order to make my story more believable or more palatable for people to like me more, which certainly lead to maybe an innocent claim at the end, but it would certainly lead to where I want somebody to start believing I'm going to wind up. Greg? Yeah, what you call borrowing authority, I call authority by association and she doesn't just borrow it. She paid for it. She tells you, we have the experts. There's a status claim here and there's a resume statement of sorts there. I would say I paid for this expertise and I know. So I agree with you. There's that, certainly up front. She swallows really hard at the beginning of this. Did you all see that? Just awkward. Now it's probably from the question before, but it's still there. She smiles awkwardly in the middle of this thing. I don't get that. Of all the things, it's kind of that condescending spot. Some of this is her baseline of snarkiness. I mean, it's just how she's wired, I think, but she is in the middle of a rambling to your point. There are not many questions and answers that are quite this messy, but she's rambling and running off into the quicksand and he rescues her. You see that when she said, we, she has a word pattern about this every day. She has a word pattern shift that says, we have been, and she's not said that up to now, any weird word pattern like that, not just noncommittal, not just rambling, but it's a weird word pattern for her. Remember, she was a beauty queen. She was a pageant person and presentation is everything to your point earlier. Even if you don't answer a question, you probably have a long rhythmic process to it. So I would say, what are you, what are you talking about here? And I would probably be a little snarky back and push her a little bit and be critical. And I'd get what she's got. I guarantee you, she would go at me to tell me how dumb I am and go from there. So Scott, what do you got? All right. Here we see the largest illustrators in the whole thing. And when she says, as she's going along, she illustrates almost every word she's saying. And it's like she's answering to a child for the fifth time answering a question and she's not going to answer it anymore. This is what people do when they, when they're done, when they're finished with it, they're telling you they're finished with it. They say, I'm not, you know, but the interesting thing here is, and I just caught this, was that big head dip when she says, we have no previous knowledge of this, but we, when she says we, her head goes, it dips almost like she's bowing to this interviewer. That lets me know she's done at this point. She's saying, this is the last you're getting about this right now, because her head goes low on that part of it. And then she starts, again, back in what she just said up with all this data, that means, you know, absolutely nothing when you sit down and try to write it out. But when you listen to it, it just, it's just like huffing and puffing is all that is as you go along. There's nothing really there. It's there, but there's nothing there. It's just all smoke and mirrors at that point. Yeah, but she's, she's making sure she gets her point across. She's done with that, with that question. So Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So as the camera pans to her, you get the lip groom. So she really knows that the camera is moving on her again. Perception is really, really important. Condescending, lecturing tone almost to a child. And that's what's eminently unlikeable about her. I want you to take a look at some of Margaret Thatcher's interviews because this is the most like Thatcher that she is. You see the nodding of the head and then the shaking of the head. At the same time, this is condescending downward low voice that is almost male in its way of pushing you down and telling you exactly how the world is. It's not very likable, is it? And Thatcher was never very likable and neither is this lady here. So it has that cold kind of iron lady perception to it. Again, we've got to be careful how that influences our ideas about her. I mean, one of the things you probably want to do if you're in this kind of situation is be eminently likable so the public will be on your side. And there's no way that the public is going to be on her side again because she doesn't have that sense of loss around her either. So bad public perception from somebody who is all about public perception. And I hope you like my Thatcher impression there. I loved it. We have been in conversation and in... We think about this every day. Every day. And we've sought out the top people in the field that know about how the criminal line works. And this is what we're going on. The profile that's in the book, all that information is not from John and from me. This is from people that know what they're doing. So are we good? Yeah. How is it that you are able to sit here and talk about the body of thatcher daughter? I have to kind of put it in a clinical perspective rather than emotionally when I can to talk about it like this. And we have a strong faith. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, this one, the speech pattern shifts. She's almost childlike in her recall of what she should say. Now, here's the thing, guys. I'm also going to go with you, Mark. If one of us were being questioned, we're in trouble because we would not be likable because we would be informing and telling you how things are. And it's just in the way we're wired. She shifts here and when they ask her, now, if you ask me about bodies and that kind of thing in my past life or chase, well, we probably have a little more experience in that world than is normal. But when it's your own child, I'm going to tell you that seeing somebody else's body that I don't know probably wouldn't affect me nearly as much as someone I love. I've seen quite a few bodies in my life. And when you lose someone in your family, that is a devastating thing. This is awfully clinical to talk about it, but it's also childlike. So this is probably one of the few places where I start to say, well, there's a soft side of her and she's trying to say whatever. And then she goes up and her accessing changes. She's not focused on you and making eye contact and trying to hypnotize you. She's doing something else. She's recalling and thinking and she's avoiding eye contact, which is actually more endearing of her than anything she's done. And now if she'd look at you and say, well, I just compartmentalize it, you would think, yeah, this woman needs to go somewhere. So there's that chase. What do you got? I think they publicly announced that they're doing all this from a clinical perspective, which I think is is them saying, this is why you're not seeing emotion. This is why you're not seeing our grief. That's the way that they can explain this. And some people might say, well, that, you know, we're not seeing a lot of grief here because they're numb after this experience. It's an experience. Yeah, we watched the McCann's, for example. And they were really numb. And we'll get back to that in a second. But when she does this, she's gesturing off to her right side. When she's talking about something horrible, like something horrible that she needs to get out, gesturing to her right side. And this is important. Later, if I was interrogating or interviewing her, when I want her to be emotional, I'll move to that other side. The opposite from where she was associating this clinical part. And I'm also going to gesture with that hand to make her look over that direction, to make her use eye accessing in that direction. And when people say, oh, maybe they're numb. And that's the reason they just don't show any emotion. There's a ton of emotion here. It's fear, social approval, seeking, anger and disagreement. We see a lot of it here. And people who are spent or empty on emotions are just numb after an experience like this. They're numb from all emotions, not just one. And I think this is an attempt to explain the lack of feeling about the issue. But when emotions are there, you're not numb to the experience. Mark? Yeah, so I totally agree. And I buy in from this video to her idea of compartmentalization. She's very clear about where she's placed it. And she seems to be clear to me about where the feelings are and that she's not accessing those now. She's put it in a little package over here. And her eyes go all around the house to get from one to another. So I think she really is experiencing and truly has packaged up the story and the emotions in different places. But the important thing is, is it comes across very, very cold. And again, from a perception point of view, it doesn't work well for us. So she comes across as cold that easily makes us feel like she is calculating and then inhuman. And at that point, we've dehumanized her. At that point, you know, we can turn her into doing horrific crimes. I don't know whether she did or not. But all I'm saying is, because of her behavior right now, it's easy for us to dehumanize her and make her the bad person. She could well be, maybe she isn't, but it's easy for us to put her there. So we've got to be careful about that. Scott, what do you got? All right. I don't think she's thought about compartmentalizing anything up to this point. However, she has compartmentalized, like you said, Mark, everything, because this is years later. And she's been able to put everything in a box. I'm going to talk about this. This is what I talk about. And this is what I talk about. So when you get called to do a gig somewhere, all of us, you go do a keynote. What is it for? Oh, it's for the military. Okay. I know the things I'm going to go deep. Here are the things I always cover on the deep stuff. Then I want to go talk to a dental assistant. And then it goes small. A lot of the same stuff, but you just don't go as deep on anything because you know, legally we can't, but you don't go as deep on anything. So she's compartmentalized all this stuff. And that's where she's got hers over here. She's compartmentalized what she thinks about her over here. So as a whole, everything's got its own spot. And that's all she's talking about because I think this whole thing has been compartmentalized for her. She keeps it in a box and then she brings it up and then she starts looking at the different separate parts of it mentally. That's what I'm getting from that. And five years is a long time. You can do a lot of compartmentalization in five years. Yeah. I will say this. The rule of thumb to go off of in compartmentalization, the more a person feels like what they did that they need to compartmentalize or what they witnessed was a result of doing something good or doing the right thing, the easier it is to branch off and scoot somewhere else. Well, it's the reason soldiers can box things in a lot easier than the other guys, right? Yeah. Yeah. We've all seen him been witnessed to a lot of horrible stuff in our gigs. And you have to have a place to do that because if you don't, when you come home, it'll eat you up. It'll start getting everywhere. So I think everybody compartmentalizes. And I think this is just observing somebody explaining what that is for maybe the first time, possibly. How is it that you are able to sit here and talk about the body of your daughter? I have to kind of put it in a clinical perspective rather than emotionally when I can to talk about it like this. And we have a strong faith. So are we good? Yeah. This is our story. I mean, there have been, I think this is now the 10th book I'm understanding that has been written about this case. You know, we are the only ones that know what has happened to us since Jean Benet's death. No one else. This is a story only we can tell. I was even a bit uncomfortable putting your picture on the back. All right, Jason, what do you got? Why would it be a story and not an ordeal and experience, a trauma, our suffering, our history, our family? It's a story. I think that's an interesting choice of words there. And this offering of discomfort means nothing in terms of the question of true events. When he's talking about, I was actually uncomfortable to put this photo on the cover. And I think it's incredible to hear that it's our story, not her story. It's ours. And I just think that's an unusual choice of words. Maybe she's looking in Jean Benet with the word ours. I won't claim to know that, but I will claim to know that she did not credit her daughter in the story at all directly. Scott. I agree completely. I think it's Jean Benet's story. So that's what you'd be telling what happened. But maybe she's leaning toward the section of here's what we went through for her story. You know, so maybe that's what she's talking about was our story or whatever. But I think maybe she separated the child from this whole thing. I mean, it's all about the child, but she's not telling the story. Like you just said, Chase, of talking about the child at all. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so this to me is her baseline. It's all about me. It's all about me. It's about us. You need to listen. This is our story. This is about us. Other people shouldn't be writing our stories, what I'm hearing. So yeah, this is not makes her not likeable. And Mark, I don't think we can say enough times. It doesn't mean she killed anybody. I do think when you are forthcoming, there's not a lot of smoke and mirrors and stuff about your kid dying. You know, if you talk about somebody, whether murdered or some something else, you'll get to clear easy points. If I'm going to tell you a story about something that happened five years ago and losing a child, it'll be very clear about what happened. I don't need to make it a big deal in a song and dance and about me. It's going to be about what happened and where it's gone. Look, these are all well known facts and it makes you feel like someone is hiding something in my world. When somebody looks like they're hiding something, it's usually guilty knowledge. That's, and we'll always say, you can't tell what happened, but you can certainly say, we need to lift the covers on this when something's up. And that's what I see. Mark, you want to bring it home? Yeah. So why does this make the public feel really bad? And I think the interviewer hits the nail on their head here. People don't understand how you are past the loss of this. That's the big problem with this. We as a public go, I wouldn't have let her go so quickly. I'd still be in loss and mourning. Why? Because she wasn't ours in the first place, but we've made her ours. Jean Benet became really an icon of the death of innocence, a beauty that gets taken away for no apparent reason. She is almost an urban legend. She is mythology. And so the parent, I think at this point, is going, you can't have that. This is now my story. I'm going to take control of that. And we don't like that because we don't want to dead. We don't want that child dead. We want to keep that child alive. And the parent here is really killing that child for us and going, she's not even on the cover. We don't even want her on the back. This is our story now. So we don't see the value, I think, of that maneuver that the parents are doing. We may have our arguments for why it isn't valuable. But we've got to see from their point of view why it may be valuable to them. Again, I don't know who's culpable, who's guilty of anything here. All I know is that in this interview, she is wholly unlikable. And I think we've got some of the reasons why we don't like her. And we've got to be really careful that we understand that that's going to bias us in our judgments and the stories we make up about her there. I'll leave it at that. This is our story. I mean, there have been, I think this is now the 10th book I'm understanding that has been written about this case. You know, we are the only ones that know what has happened to us since Jean Benet's death. No one else. This is a story only we can tell. I was even a bit uncomfortable putting your picture on the back. All right, let's talk around the room and let's come up with two words for what you think is going on here. Greg. Jury's out. What about you, Chase? Guilty knowledge. Mark. Guilty of bad public perception. I know it's not two words, but I don't do two words. All right. Then I mine would be I don't know. I don't know what I'd say. I don't know what I'd say. I don't have two words for it. I talk too much. All right. Well, thanks you guys so much. If you like what we're doing, please subscribe and click the little bell so you know we have a new video come out and never get to go to the back one more time or back to the 911 call the second part and let us know what you think is being said in there. So we will read it. Oh yeah. No kidding. All right. I'll see you guys next time. Bye now.