 Good morning and welcome to this week's edition of Encompass Live. I am your host, Krista Porter, here at the Nebraska Library Commission. Encompass Live is the commission's weekly webinar series where we cover a variety of topics that may be of interest to libraries. We broadcast the show live every Wednesday morning at 10 a.m. Central Time. But if you're unable to join us on Wednesdays, that's fine. Would you record the show as we are doing today and then it is posted on our archives? I'll show you at the end of the day show where you can access those archives to watch at your convenience. Both the live show and the recordings are free and open to anyone to watch. So please do share with your friends, family, neighbors, colleagues, anyone you think may be interested in any of the topics we have on the show. Here in Nebraska, the Nebraska Library Commission is the state agency for libraries in Nebraska and that is for all types of libraries. So you will find things on our show that are for public academics, K-12, museums, corrections, archives of all sorts, basically anything. Are really our only criteria that it's something to do with libraries, something cool that libraries are doing. We bring guest speakers from around the state and around the country to come in and talk about things that they are doing, projects they have, services they may be offering to show. Sometimes we have presentations from Nebraska Library Commission staff talking about things we provide here in our state for our libraries. So it is quite a mixture of things we have here. Just before we get started this morning, I just do want to do a little reminder to our Nebraska libraries. We are, since we are still in the COVID-19 pandemic, is still happening. We do have resources on our website for our libraries in Nebraska. If you're not at Nebraska Library, I'd recommend checking your state library, your state library association. They may be offering the same kind of resources. We have a post here that's pinned to the top of our website. And we have a link here of our libraries in Nebraska as they have reported to us, or we are reaching out to them and finding out who's open, who's closed, who's reopening, what special accommodations they have at each library in Nebraska. On our resources post, we have here where you can report to us and let us know what's going on in your library. Like I said, just Nebraska libraries. And then we have a sub-page that has specific information depending about what your situation is. Are you looking for help about what to do with your kids on employment health? Specifically for libraries, we have a lot of resources here about closing, reopening, policies, some reading programs, a big deal coming up that a lot of libraries are working with. So if we're always updating this page when there are new resources available and new things from either IMLS, CDC, World Health Organization, ALA, whoever is putting out good information to help libraries decide what to do in dealing with the pandemic that's going on right now. So I just always want to remind everybody about those resources here for Nebraska libraries. And like I said, checking with your own state library association if you're not in Nebraska and see what they may be offering for you. So this morning, I am going to now switch over to our presenter for today's show. So Leanne, you should see the pop-up to make you a presenter. There we go. And you should be able to make your slides, the full screen. Awesome, perfect. All right. So this morning, we are going to be talking about makerspaces, a huge topic, but specifically identity and imposter syndrome, which is something that's not just in makerspaces. I've experienced it in the other areas of my library career. But that's specifically what Leanne is going to talk about with us today. So I'm just going to hand it over to you, Leanne, to take it away and tell us all about how you've dealt with this. Yeah. Thank you so much. Well, thank you all for joining me. It's been a morning. I'm working from home right now. And I was trying to give this presentation from my second bedroom in my house, and then the internet went out. So I'm proud to announce that I'm coming at you from the parking lot of my public library. So that's why I'm not sharing my video with you today. But I hope that we don't have any interruptions or the connection doesn't go down. But I mean, hey, what an awesome service that my public library is doing this. I think a lot of public libraries are able to do that. And I'm glad I remembered that this was an option. So here we are. Yeah, that's a thank you to your public library there. We should send them a shout out. Which library is it that you're at? It's the Monroe County Public Library. And they just started doing, you can schedule to get a pickup, a whole pickup. And so there's actually quite a lot of activity people coming in and parking lot to get their books. So hey, we'll see how this goes. Nice. Yeah. And that's that's one of those things that's, you know, I'm showing our library, our closings and openings and accommodations, as we call it, that's one of the things in many of our libraries here where some libraries had already been offering the Wi-Fi and the parking lots, but it's definitely been expanded. Yeah. And I say, I was, I actually tried to go on campus to get internet access there. And that didn't work. And I'm like, you know, I should know the public library was going to come through. I can try to stand more. They stay or stay. Awesome. All right. That's all good. Anyway, all that to say. Happy to be here this morning. Okay. So back in up again. So my name is Leanne Nay. My pronouns are she, hers, and I am the legitimate librarian for the Indiana University Libraries. We are located in Bloomington, Indiana, which is in the southern part of the state, just south inapolis. And I'm of a lazy Twitter user, but you can reach out to me there. And my Twitter is, hey library. So I don't feel like I can go too much further. I'm talking about imposter syndrome today with everything that's going on in the world. I want to say that I come to this space with a lot of privilege. So I gave you my email signature, but to tell you a little more about me, I'm a white straight cisgender woman. I live in a small college town in the Midwest. And all of these things have undoubtedly shaped my experience. So with maker spaces and with libraries and just my day-to-day life. So I want to point out that maker spaces have a long way to go to be more inclusive spaces. But today I'm really going to be talking about gender imbalance specifically. And I also want to note that I'm going to be talking about gender in kind of black and white terms, which might be a little bit problematic, but there just isn't a lot of research that goes beyond here's what we know about men, here's what we know about women. So it doesn't always address non-gender binary and trans folks. So I am going to be speaking in sort of black and white terms today. So we have a long way to go in that area. But I think it's important for us to, the reason that I want to tell this story is because I know that I'm not alone in having imposter syndrome, as we just found out, a lot of us have it. So I think the best way to combat it is to talk about it and to share our stories. So that's why I'm here today. All right, so I wanted to start with a quick reflection. I'm hoping we can do this in the chat. And maybe Krista can confirm that for me. Sorry, I should have asked you about this. But I was hoping that I could read through some of these statements. And then if folks feel comfortable, if you want to, if you relate to any of these statements, if you can throw the number into the chat box, if you relate to them. So do we think that will work? Yeah, sure they should. Yeah, everybody just, if you do, you can go to the questions section of your GoToWebinar interface and type in which, if any, or all of them apply to you. Yeah, our first one says all of them, honestly, are first coming. So yeah. So yeah, so if you relate to any of these, so I'll let you read through them. But if you don't relate to any of them, you can put a zero. Sure, yeah, that would work too. We're just going to wait just like 30 seconds for folks to read through those. Yeah, so we've got quite a few people all down. Yeah, so go into your questions and type in and I'll grab. We've got all of them, one and three, three, three, all three, one and two most. But three is there also lots of. I hope we see at least one zero. All right, so it sounds like folks were able to weigh in. Nobody's got a zero so far though. I'm going to say cheers to you if you put a zero. But you know what, you probably, if you're here today, maybe it's because you've experienced it too. So I'm not surprised. One is common. One and three seem to be the most common. And a few of them saying all three. Yeah, I know for myself, I can say that first one. I know I've done that and I am now for quite a few years actively trying not to. It's so hard. And it's hard. My first thing, my first sense is like, oh, I'm sorry. I meant or I'm sorry. I was and I actually stopped myself and I leave some dead air and says, don't say the sorry part. You don't have to be sorry for it. Just explain. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I catch myself doing it a lot, especially in meetings because, you know, you want to be you want to cooperate and you want to have an open mind and you want to be polite and respectful of everyone. So it's hard not to just quickly apologize. So it definitely relate to that one. I mean, I relate to all of these on some level. But yeah. All right. Well, thank you all for weighing in on that. Yeah. All right. Keep going. So it sounds like we're all kind of on the same page, but just to give a quick definition. So imposter syndrome is commonly understood as a false and sometimes crippling belief that once successes are the product of luck or fraud rather than skill. So I at its most basic, I think of it as you feel like a fraud and it's only a matter of time before people find you out. So now that we have this kind of working definition and we've all shared that maybe we have experienced some of these feelings. What I want to do today is I'm going to share my personal experience with imposter syndrome. And then I'm going to share some of the research about gender imbalance and makerspaces. And I'm also going to sprinkle in some anecdotes from a series of interviews that I did with some other librarians who are working in makerspaces. So those are kind of the three areas that I'm going to be pulling from. All right. So my first experience with makerspaces was way back in 2012. And I was in library school at the time and a friend, a friend and I went to our local community makerspace that's called blooming labs. It's a really awesome member owned makerspace and not affiliated with the library, but they host open houses once a week and anybody can come by and just drop in and check it out. So my friend and I went and as soon as we walked through the door, it just felt like all eyes were on us. We immediately recognized that we were the only women in the space and we were much younger than a lot of the members there. So those first few minutes of walking into this makerspace were pretty uncomfortable. But then someone came over and greeted us and gave us a tour and they were very friendly and welcoming and showed us around. But I have to say that even with that gesture, it was really hard to shake that feeling that we didn't quite belong there. And that's probably why I haven't been back to that makerspace since. So flash forward a few years and I get hired into my current job at Indiana University and I was hired after a major renovation and my colleagues at IU were looking for ways to bring creativity into some of our new spaces. So that's where I came in and a makerspace seemed like an obvious choice, but I wanted to take a gradual approach and just make sure that we didn't invest in something that wasn't going to work for us. So I started by offering a couple of workshops that we call Maker Mondays and we did things like, you know, played with little bits, electronics kits. We played with the Raspberry Pi microcomputer. So you may have heard of some of these things. That's kind of how we got started. And the workshops were really well received. So then my colleague and I, we put together a proposal for a mobile maker cart. So we bought some Legos and musical instruments. We got a vinyl cutter and we also bought this big red tool cart to store everything. So then about a year later, we were finally able to carve out a really small space in the library. And we took over this, what used to be a study room and it's now called the mini makerspace. So that's the picture that you see in the middle there. So even though our campus is huge, we have more than 40,000 students. The mini makerspace, it's mini. It's a, it's a pretty niche operation. We have a few student employees that offer drop-in hours in the space during the week. And then we do about five or six of the maker Monday's workshops throughout the semester. And then we also have an equipment checkout program. So we have a small set of equipment, just a handful of digital cameras. We have some musical instruments and some other supplies as well. So our makerspace is small, but we're also part of a whole network of makerspaces on our campus. So we have, I can't tell you an exact number because it seems like at the time I meet my colleagues, there's a new maker on our campus, kind of crazy. But so we have one in our school location, at least two that I know of in our school of architecture and design. And then we also have a couple in our school of informatics, computing and engineering. So we are not alone. When I started my position, it was 2015 and only one makerspace existed on our campus. So, you know, just in a matter of years, we've opened up several. And it's kind of impressive how quickly these have come together. But the mini makerspace is the only library makerspace that we have on our campus. So at some point I got word that there was this group of campus makerspace directors. And so I wanted in on that, obviously, to be a part of this network. And so I started attending their meetings. And when the first time that I joined, it felt really similar to that first experience that I had at our local makerspace, except worse. So it was a small group of about four or five people. But I was the only woman in the group. And they were all managing these large makerspaces with huge budgets. And they all had really expensive digital fabrication equipment. You know, they were just on a completely different level than I was. To give you an example, one of them was had worked with a faculty member to 3D print a prosthetic arm. And then I felt like, you know, meanwhile, I'm down the street here and I'm showing students how to make light up valentines in the library. So it just needless to say, I felt a little out of place. And so I kept going to these meetings because I wanted to be part of this group. But I really didn't speak because I didn't feel like I had a place to. And somewhere around that time, fortunately, I heard about this term imposter syndrome. And as soon as I heard it, I knew that's exactly what I was experiencing. Because, you know, I was really, I was proud of what I was doing in the library. You know, we started this service. And even though it was small, we really kind of made it our own. But alongside these other makerspace directors, I just felt like a fraud. And I felt like I didn't have a place in this group. So I learned a lot about this phenomenon from Dr. Valerie Young. And she is an author and a speaker. And she writes a lot about imposter syndrome. So if you look her up, she, to be honest, she gives off kind of like a Tony Robbins motivational speaker vibe. But that said, I still recommend reading her work because I think it's really helpful. So she has this book called The Secret Thoughts of Successful Women. And she delves into why women are more likely to experience imposter syndrome. And she's quick to point out that it's not just women that experience this. Anybody can. But women seem to be more likely than men. So studies have shown that women seem to be a little more, just more likely to experience this. And she also notes that people of color are at an even greater risk. So the way that she explains it is that, you know, the more people you see that look like you, the more comfortable and confident that you feel. And then conversely, if you don't see people that look like you, it can affect your confidence. And so that's something I want to talk more about today in this context of makerspaces. All right. So this is from a 2012 study. And this is from Intel and Make Magazine. So they did this study in order to profile so-called makers. So like, who is a maker? What are they making, et cetera? Oh, sorry about that. Are you seeing my? So here we go. All right. Yep. My bad. Okay. That's okay. Not a problem. Okay. So, all right. So we have this study. So they took a sample of people who had exhibited at their MakerFair, which is a really large event that showcases different makers and different projects. They took it from people who subscribed to Make Magazine and then people who also subscribed to their newsletter. So they called it like the cross-section of the maker universe. So that's where they pulled from. And they had about 800 respondents. And these were the results of that survey. So they found that eight and 10 of those respondents were male. And as you can see, most of them were well-educated, middle-class. A lot of them were married. And even though the study's from 2012, so maybe a little bit outdated, but it's still frequently cited today because it does speak to the lack of diversity in makerspaces. And subsequent studies have shown pretty similar results. And there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that suggests that this is really still the case. So not a lot of diversity in our makers. So why does this imbalance exist? So there's a really wonderful study from 2015 from Dr. Jen Lewis. And she identified some of the barriers to women's involvement in makerspaces. So Lewis interviewed some folks using makerspaces in the UK. She was working with a makerspace called Access Space. And they interviewed folks in order to address some themes. So this is just a few of them. So one of the themes that came up in talking to people is that a lot of folks suggested that maybe there's fewer women just because women aren't as interested. So men are more interested. That's why they're in this space. And she explains that that could be the case. That might be the way that it is right now. But it probably has more to do with societal influences than anything else. So historically stem environments have been dominated by men and makerspaces kind of fall into that stem field. So they are following suit. So women may not be exposed to the kind of activities that are happening in makerspaces. So in that case, they're not able to see the point in participating. They don't see themselves in these spaces. So I like this example that she writes that women may want to do something like stick an Arduino in something or light up LEDs, but they don't know it yet because they don't even know what an Arduino is, what it does, how it works, or even have the right language to kind of talk about that. So I really like this first issue. And I think apparently it's sort of a controversial issue because you start talking about biological differences between men and women. But I think she brings up a good point that it might have more to do with just what we're exposed to. So a couple of other things that she brings up. One issue that's really big I think I really relate to this is that makerspaces can be really intimidating. And I think one reason for this is that they're still so new that it's hard to know what to expect if you've never been. So I didn't really know what to expect when I went to our local makerspace for the first time. And when you walk into, say, a library, we all have some idea of what our behavior would be or what's allowed. But when you think about makerspaces, it can be a lot less predictable. So it's not always clear who is allowed to be in these spaces or what you can do. And I think a lot of times that prevents people from trying. I also really like this description. So I said this study is from the UK. So it can feel like going into the wrong pub. Definitely relate to that. Another barrier I thought was really interesting was that several people pointed out that messy and cluttered spaces were really off-putting. So if you Google images of makerspace or hackerspace, a lot of times we'll see something that looks like a basement or a warehouse. And that feeling of something that's kind of off the grid or unconventional, it really seems to capture the DIY spirit. But at the same time, it doesn't necessarily make it easier to work. So a friend of mine told me that she was part of her local makerspace and she had to cancel her membership because she was tired of how messy and disorganized it was and she just didn't want to have to clean up after the other members. So she decided she was better off just working in her garage where she could have some more control over the space. All right. And I wanted to do another quick poll. I can't see the answer, so I'm going to rely on you, Krista, to maybe share a couple with me. Yeah. Not a problem. Great. So I was hoping that we could, if folks feel comfortable sharing, how was your first experience with makerspace? If you can tell us maybe one good thing, one bad thing, and then if you've never been to a makerspace before, tell us what prevented you from doing that. So I'm just going to pause for a couple minutes here. Good question. Yes. So go ahead and type in your question section of your go-to-webinar interface. And someone did ask earlier, excuse me, yes, you don't see everyone else's comments. On here, no. It's not an interactive chat between everybody. It's just something where I can see what you're typing in and then read it off to our presenter, our share or anything you want to. So yeah, go ahead and type in your question section and let us know when you, if you remember your first experience. I was trying to think when was, my first time going to one was probably visiting one at some public library here in Nebraska, but not really to use it just to tour it, being that I'm at the state library. But we do have here in Nebraska, there's our innovation studios, which is part of our university of Nebraska-Lincoln campus. And they, there's, it's kind of reminds me of what you were just describing. That's where they've done, here in Nebraska, we're doing a grant, we're giving libraries, makerspace equipment to have in their libraries for a limited amount of time. It's jointly with them. And that's why we do the training. We have done the training. And it was a big open like industrial cement floor, giant like a warehouse. It's a specific building is faced at on the campus, but it's, it looks like a woodworking shop or something like that. And lots of tables everywhere and equipment everywhere and shelves all around the edges with things stacked up. And it's, it's a combination of their makerspace for innovation studios for doing things and any students who are doing their own projects and work. And it was a little bit chaotic. I didn't know where to go or where to start. Yes. Yeah, it's kind of overwhelming because on the one hand, you think, wow, this is so cool. Like, look at all this stuff. But then you're like, oh, I don't know what to do. And am I allowed to use that? And they are very nice and welcoming there. But at first, you know, glance walking in, you're like, I'm not even sure which direction to go. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was, there I go. Apologize. I was going to say, oh, but I think it's, I think a lot of makerspaces recognize that and they're, they're making that effort to like great people when they come in. And I, but I think it just, it just shows you like, you really have to go above and beyond because even just welcoming. They do have an entranceway. That's more like a, like a reception area that you go, you do go into first before you get into the main room. And it does like display some people's things they've made. So it does seem more like a art gallery type vibe. But then you go around the back and you're like, oh, what now? Yeah, that's great though. It sounds like they've really thought about it. Yeah. So they're working on it. So we got some comments here. Someone just said, they have nobody resources or materials for it. So they haven't been known. Someone says they've never been fear of getting it wrong. Exactly. We don't have any here in North Carolina where I live. One person says, you have to make an appointment to visit a makerspace. The hours are usually my working hours. I would like it to be walk-in instead. A makerspace in the library. I work in clothes shortly after I started working here. It was run by a different department and rarely open. That's, that's sad. I've never been, that's why I wanted to know more. Great. A lot of makerspaces near me feel either targeted at children or off limits because they're on university campuses. Yeah. Totally, and other ends of the spectrum there. I'm working during the makerspace at our library. I haven't been to another one. I haven't been to others due to lack of knowledge of when and where they are. First experience went as a new hire at the library. I needed to know the space. A good thing was I was ready to learn. Bad thing was that the patrons will ask for my mail, my mail colleagues for help instead of me. Yep. I'm going to talk about that. Yeah. My first time was my first day at the job. I didn't know how to use anything or where anything was. The best thing was figuring all that stuff out. See, I find that fun too. I will push a button. I will try something. I will just go right at it. I know that you really can't, and I think the fear of breaking something is a thing too and I don't really have that fear. I'm not going to try and break something, but I know nothing can't be repaired or fixed. You're back up and try something else. Yeah. First experience was creating a makerspace for my library. I toured one in a neighboring town. It was impressive. Knowing that I was going to be in charge of one with no experience was very overwhelming. Sounds common. Good thing, seeing patrons enjoy and create in the space. Bad thing, no training or experience. Yep. Sounds like a lot. A lot of people are touching on some similar issues of starting with accessibility. How do I even get to one? Or maybe I just don't have access to one. And then moving into, okay, there's one here, but how do I get into it? Or I tried and I didn't get the help I needed. A lot of things are similar, I think, as I'm finding out from hearing all this across all library services. Lack of promotion. We suck at that. I mean, an overwhelming thing over all library services that we don't know how to promote what we're doing or what we have to the right place or in the right way. We try, but this is, you guys are all us. And even us as librarians are having trouble figuring out where do I go? When do I go? How does it all work? Well, an perfect example. Like I was telling my mom just this morning, like, oh, I'm doing this webinar today. And she's like, oh, what's it about? And I was like, I don't even want to explain it. I'm explaining what a maker space is. I'm lazy, I guess. I was just like, but yeah, it's hard to explain. And then people might not understand right away, like, well, why is that in the library? And I was like, I don't know if I can have this conversation with you right now, but maybe later. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, there's a lot to it. And I think you're absolutely right. Like libraries, we just have a promotion problem to begin with. So then to introduce this service, that's different than the way that a lot of people think of libraries which makes it even more complicated. Like yeah, but so yeah, there's a lot of layers to it. But yeah, thank you all so much for sharing that. I think in the people, I mentioned that I've talked to a lot of other librarians about this, and it seems to be the case in this. I mean, I think a lot of us are encountering these same issues. So I'm going to keep up with the negativity here, but I do have some tips at the end that can hopefully help with some of these things. So yeah, thank you all for sharing. All right, so one thing I want to touch on here is that one issue with women's involvement, I think has to do with the devaluing of art compared to technology. So this is from another study done at Intel. It was done by two ethnographers, and they wanted to explore why women are underrepresented in the more technical forms of making. So they found that women tended to come to this like makerspace environment with a background in arts and crafts, and that their work wasn't always taken as seriously as more technical projects. So one thing they mentioned in the study was like they had interviewed one woman, and she said if she was seen sketching in the makerspace, people kind of brushed it off as like she wasn't really doing serious work, she was just like doodling. So this is an issue that I've thought a lot about because a lot of the workshops that I teach tend to lean more towards arts and crafts. So I think there's a lot of value in teaching people new skills, and that can be embroidery or it can be soldering, but I have to admit that I tend to promote my more techie things, and I'm more willing to talk about those things because I, to be honest, I want to be taken seriously. So for me, it's hard to go to my dean and say, hey, we had 20 people come down and make a light up Valentine today versus saying, oh, I taught a group of people how to program an Arduino. Like there's just kind of a disconnect between those two. For me, I think it's kind of been my own problem. So I've tried to recognize that, you know, for us actually, our students, the reason that we continue to do more arts and crafts is because that's what our students really like. That's what they want to see. And I think that's what we see a lot in public libraries. So there's no shame in teaching people what they want to learn. And I think some of this is just, we need to say, hey, you know, there is value in art and crafts. And just because it's things are not as technical, some of the more advanced like digital fabrication stuff, that doesn't mean that it's not valuable and important. All right. So there's all kinds of making and it's not just, yeah, computer. That's one of the things we are putting into our libraries and those legacy grants we're doing is embroidery machines is actually one of the items that everyone gets. That's awesome. And I think the best makerspaces are a really good blend of like high tech and low tech stuff. So, you know, they've got a laser engraver, but they've also got popsicle sticks and pom poms and markers. Like I think if you, yeah, the ones that are really successful, it's a blend of both. Like I think that's an appeal to all levels and everyone. Absolutely. And I don't want to go off on a tangent, but I will say in terms of some of these arts and crafts, like that can be more approachable to a lot of people too. So that's why, like I think of our mini makerspace in the library, like I tell people, it's like a gateway to making. So like they can come to us and maybe, you know, maybe they're making that Valentine or maybe they're doing embroidery. But then in that when they're doing that, then I can tell them, oh, hey, there we have these other spaces on our campus. If you were interested in learning about this or, you know, kind of leveling up a little bit. So I think that there's definitely a place for art and crafts in makerspaces and that can actually be a good tool to get people in who might otherwise be too intimidated to check out your makerspace. And that picture you've got right there on that slide of that button maker, that's what that is there in case anyone's wondering. We had those same ones. Those are so popular. So easy. So quickly. Anybody can do it. A little, a five year old kid can do it with a little help if it's, and yeah. I mean, best investment your library will ever make is button maker. Like we, I feel like every event we put it out for, I've never seen these students get so excited. It's like, who knew the 18 year olds would be thrilled about a button maker? Like they never get three, four hundred dollars for a whole set of everything you need to. Yeah. It's, yeah, definitely a good investment for sure. All right. Okay. So somebody brought this up and so this is a real thing. So when I was doing interviews with other library makerspace folks, a lot of people said, you know, that one way that they were dealing with their imposter syndrome was that they really had to find comfort in not knowing and be okay with saying, I don't know how to do this. And they had to be okay with maybe learning side by side with their patrons if they had to. And they really didn't feel compelled to pretend. So research suggests that this attitude might actually be easier for women than it is for men. So in her book, so Valerie Young talks about this thing called male answer syndrome. I couldn't believe this was a real thing, but it's this thing that suggests that men would rather answer a question than say, I don't know, regardless of whether they actually know the answer. So it's a little unfair. I'm going to say it's a little unfair to call this male answer syndrome because it's actually common human behavior. Of course, we'd rather know something than say, I don't know. But some studies have shown that it can be more common for men. So what this means in a makerspace context is that if men appear to have more expertise than women, it can be intimidating or alienating for women. So I see this happen all the time in my workshops. Usually our female participants are really quick to point out like, oh, I've never done this. Can you help me with this? Can somebody show me? I just don't have any experience. Whereas our male participants, they rarely volunteer that information. They're not going to tell us that they've never done something before. And somebody pointed out earlier, which I think is right in line with this, is that a lot of times we people assume that the men in the room have the technical expertise. So I actually saw this a lot in my last job. So my previous position, I worked at a public library in Florida and I managed our digital media lab. So I was pretty much our go-to tech help person in the library. But a lot of times our patrons just were looking for a man. And the person in the position before me was a man. So that may be part of it. But I think just a lot of times folks just assume that men have more technical expertise than women. So that can be problematic anywhere in the library and also in the makerspace. So I want to give another example of this. So I think it's really easy to fall into that trap. So a few months ago, my library did this photo shoot. They came up with these really great photos and I actually wasn't able to be there. But fortunately, they got some pictures of our mini makerspace. And about half of them are really, really good pictures. So they got a diverse group of students and everyone is smiling and playing and it's really wonderful. But then in about half of the pictures, there is the only man in the group is really set up to look like the expert. So that's what you see on the left hand side. So he sat down at the table, picked up the soldering iron and there's just several pictures of him kind of showing everybody how it works. And that's all good and well. And I know it wasn't intentional and I'm really grateful that they took these pictures and that they all participated. But I just feel like I can't really use some of these photos for any kind of promotion because it continues to send this message that men are the experts in this space. So ideally we want to show that everyone is learning together. And that's what we see, I think demonstrated on the right. So in this picture here. So just goes to show like it's really hard to avoid some of this messaging and some of these traps. It's so subtle sometimes you don't see it and you've got to really think. Yeah. And I'm sure that and like I said, I wasn't there. So I know ill will against anyone, but I have this on my mind all the time because I don't want to, you know, I want to make sure that the space is open to everyone. So I just, I wasn't there to police it, I guess. But yeah, fortunately they did get a lot of great photos. So I'm happy to have those and I'm using several of them today. All right. Oh, there we go. Okay. So I've got one more article to share and this one, I have to be honest, totally rocked my world. So it's called why I'm not a maker. And the author lays out her argument for she just says that we value innovation and technology over things like childcare, healthcare and education, which are traditionally female domains. So I was really encouraged to read this because I never really thought of myself as a maker. I don't really, I don't make things for the sake of making like I don't go home and embroider and I don't go home and solder. I'm really just interested in teaching others how to make things. So I'm an educator and that's really my main role. And I think that's the role that a lot of librarians have taken. And I think that we need so much more than makers in our maker spaces. So for a library to support one, we need support from everybody, not just those who are technically inclined. So I think we need to respect what everyone brings to the table, not just those who have maybe more of a technology focus in their positions. All right. Another interesting takeaway that from the interviews that I did was that a lot of my colleagues that I spoke to were constantly defending having a maker space in the library in the first place. So I really thought that I was going to talk to people about their own imposter syndrome. But in a way, it kind of felt like the library was the imposter. Like folks weren't sure, like we're just constantly asked to defend like why would you even have a maker space in the library in the first place? So they weren't always confident comparing their libraries, especially alongside maker spaces on university campuses kind of like mine where you've got these like huge maker spaces in engineering schools and things like that. So I mean, I've definitely experienced this with my group of campus maker space directors. And for a long time, it felt like I just did not deserve to be in their group. Felt like I didn't work in a quote real maker space. And I probably don't need to sell this audience on library maker spaces because you're all here. But some of the main arguments that I've talked about a lot with my colleagues are, you know, of course, we have this reputation for being open to all that not everyone has. We have the ability to provide access to equipment and materials at little or no cost. And then also we have been perfecting lending and circulation for centuries. So we're really set up to share our materials as well. So for me, recognizing our strengths as libraries has helped me to be a better advocate for our library maker space, especially to those that are outside of the library. All right, a couple other lessons. So first and foremost, just I have really enjoyed talking to people about this because it is comforting to know that I'm not the only one that feels this way, whether it's maker space or just any kind of professional capacity, just feeling like you don't quite measure up or you don't belong. So plenty of people experience, oh, I lost my train of thought here. Okay, moving on to the next one. So the next thing that I talked about is that, you know, arts and crafts do have a place in the maker movement and I've tried to take ownership of that and not just promote my more techie offerings, but really just promote everything that we have to offer. And next, so you don't have to be a maker, like I said, there's a place for educators, community organizers. There's, I think there's a place for everyone in maker spaces and you don't necessarily have to come from a STEM background or have an interest in technology. And lastly, so libraries, as I said, libraries are a unique and fitting environment for maker spaces and we should take pride of them. Absolutely, yes. Yeah, so, okay, so a couple, I'm going to wrap this up on a positive note. So it's not all doom and gloom out there just as we were talking about, even in, you know, in Nebraska too, there's a lot of maker spaces are challenging themselves to be more inclusive. And there's a lot of things that maker spaces can do and that starts with really small gestures, like providing gender pronoun buttons, shows that folks of all genders are welcome. One really small thing I thought I caught, but I thought it was a great idea was to provide hair ties. So a lot of maker spaces will give like goggles, safety goggles and things and, you know, maybe they want you to pull your hair back so that your hair didn't get caught in equipment, but like just providing those hair ties really welcomes women or honestly anyone with long hair for that matter. And things like inclusive signage, just letting people know, hey, everyone is welcome here. You don't have to provide your ID or anything like that. So signage can, you know, we know that people don't read signs, but I think that signage can help. Absolutely wanders in and starts, you know, has that moment of, I'm I allowed in here, what can I do? So things like that are small, but I think they go a long way. And next, so I think that one great way to let people know kind of what's possible in your space and that everybody is welcome is to invite a diverse group of guest speakers to come and show their work. You can also display project examples. So that's what we were talking about earlier. And that's a good way just to let people know, hey, here's, here's what is possible in this space. So part of our maker space grant that we do that each of our libraries who participates in it has to do is a maker showcase at the end of their time of having the equipment they have to do and have an event where it is an open and everyone who has maybe used their equipment in the last few months displays and talks about what they've made in the space. So make it an actual event. Yeah, not just, you know, display it, but say we're going to have an open house on so and so day, like when you have an art opening, art gallery opening or something. And I love that. And I also love, I mean, one thing I think a lot about is like emphasizing the process over the product. So like, we love showing off examples and cool things that people can do, but also just say, you know, it's really about the process of maybe trying something for the first time or learning a new skill. So I think it's really cool to also show off like maybe projects that didn't quite work out or like, you know, here's something. From failure, absolutely. Exactly, yeah. So I love that balance of like, let's show the capabilities of what you might be able to accomplish, but also like, you can just come in and, you know, there's no pressure there. You can also, it's a space to fail as well. I've seen some of them actually showed, put on display, works in progress. Yes, that's a great idea. I'm not finished with this one yet, but here's all the pieces that I've started working on and hopefully you can envision what I'm going for whenever I do finish it. That's awesome. All right. So another thing is to tidy up. So as we discussed, like just these really cluttered spaces or spaces that are so stripped down that you can't see anything. You just want to have things be well organized, labeled, so that folks know kind of how to navigate the space. Lastly, establishing a greeter or potentially pairing up newcomers with like veterans of your maker space. So folks who've used it a lot, just creating sort of like a mentorship program can help to welcome in different folks to your maker space too. All right. My computer is heating up. I hope it's not, the fan's not too loud. All right. So that is all that I have prepared. I hope we have some time for questions here. There's my name, my email address, and I also wanted to make a shameless plug for, so I mentioned these interviews that I did with my colleagues. It's going to be in a book chapter that's in this forthcoming publication called Remaking the Maker Space, and that's going to be coming out, I think sometime this summer. But so I hope you'll read it, not just for my chapter, but there's going to be a lot of really wonderful chapters in it that are specifically focusing on diversity, equity, and inclusion in maker spaces. So I hope that you'll check that out when it comes out. Who is publishing that? It's from a library juice press. Oh, great. Okay, awesome. All right. Yeah. No, Almya, anybody have any questions? So we definitely have time. Lots of time here. Anybody have any questions, comments, anything you want to share? Type into the question section. I'd be interested to know if anyone in the audience related to that last slide, ideas that you have used in your maker spaces for those of you that are doing it, that maybe have worked to get more people in, to get more diverse group of people in, or things that haven't worked. Like we said, learn from your mistakes. So if you do have any questions, anything you want to know more about, go ahead and type in the questions section and we can get them answered here. I'm definitely going to put that book on our list of things to check up on here here at the library commission. Also, I'll mention too, and I'll ask you, I don't know if I mentioned to you previously, Lillian, if we can have these slides be available. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So if you can send me just the sharing link, the share link from your Google, slides there, and so that everyone's wondering of the slides will be available, so all those articles and links to the studies that have been done, you'll have access to that afterwards when the recording is up. We do have some comments. Someone said, this has been great. Thank you. Great. Love the hair ties idea. Me too. I have long hair. My husband has long hair. That's just so easy. Someone shared a link saying, I put these posters up in my space. Let's see if I can get them up here. Oh, okay. I am going to excited. Someone shared this link, so I'm going to bring back the presenter control on my screen so I can show you guys these posters. That here we go. Posters celebrating women role models. Ah, I went to there. In science, technology, and math. Oh, Mighty Girl. Love Mighty Girl. That's one of my favorite places that I follow, but specifically female science, technology, and math. Yeah, absolutely. So these are things you can get from the Mighty Girl website. Oh, I don't know. I can't see you on my screen, but I don't know if that's just from mine. You should be able to see. Okay. If you down on your taskbar, if you click on what looks like the little flower snowflake, it should bring up the screen to you to see again. Says I pulled back presenter control on my screen, but other people said they can see them. Yeah. It says there's eight or so different ones from the Mighty Girl website. Oh, cool. Science, math, and technology. Women who are involved in those. So we have questions. Do you have any suggestions for making makerspaces more low stakes? Ooh, more low stakes. Let's see. For us, the most successful thing has been our Maker Mondays workshops. So I think part of it is the material that we cover, but also the format. So for us, in an academic context, I do them on Mondays at lunchtime because I want people to feel like they can come in, bring their lunch if they want to. There's no pressure. And then I try to do things that require no previous experience. So let me list some of the... I should have made a list before. Let me think of some of the ones we've done. So I mentioned Valentine. So I love making things light up. So whether it's like paper circuits or like conductive paint or things like that. So those tend to be pretty well attended. And maybe it's because, yeah, there's not a lot of barriers. And I try to also align them with like holidays or different events. So I figure, oh, maybe somebody's coming because they want to learn how to make something light up or maybe someone's coming just because they want to make a Valentine. So yeah, I would say, I think workshops are the best way. Yes. And something I said, something no experience needed. So it's less intimidating to somebody new walking in and saying, I don't even know. I don't know nothing about tech. I don't know anything about how to use a laser or whatever. It's like, it's okay. Here's something you can do. And then like you said earlier, level up to using someone you get comfortable in the easier thing. But I don't need people's experience. Then start, you know. Then yeah, then you can kind of, yeah, level up to one. I guess one good example for us is we have one of these. We have the Silhouette Cameo. I think there's another brand. But these like desktop vinyl cutters that you can get at like Jo-Anne's or Michael's. And we have them all the time. And it's actually, you know, people think of it as like, oh, you're going to use this for scrapbooking or something. But you can do a lot with it. And it's a good way to talk about computer design. So if you should show someone how to design a file for that, they can actually then turn around and design a file for a laser engraver pretty much the same way or like a large scale vinyl cutter. So I like to think about that too in terms of like tools like that where it illustrates a concept. But you know, the barriers are low because you're like, oh, this is just like a craft machine. You know, it's nothing too complicated. And then you can take your skills from that and then translate it to something to be a little more advanced. Yeah, we have that in ours. There's so many, I mean, you're thinking about just making the thing, but there is the design ahead of time. And many of the, much of the equipment we use uses Corel Draw as the design component. So there's a whole course and learn how to use Corel Draw. And now you can use these four pieces of equipment that we've given you. Yeah. Oh, wow. I see the connection now there. Yeah. Yeah. I want to see some more comments here. We're going to try and have more examples. That's a great idea. I'll also try taking more photos of people working in the space to help us advertise. So thank you so much. They said for that tip of how to advertise it better. Yeah. And let's see. And now here's your question. How do you structure maker events in libraries for adults? I've tried to do it later in the day, but I still don't get many adults coming to them. Well, I'm assuming this question is probably from a public library standpoint. Yeah. So I don't know if anyone listening has any ideas. I'm in an academic library context. So for us, kind of on the bright side, like the students are already there. They're already in the library. So we get a lot of participants who are just like people who are spending their entire day in the library. And then they're like, oh, I'm going to go take a break and do this workshop real quick. But I don't know if anyone listening has any advice for adult events. Yeah. If anybody has any tips about how you had gotten more adults to come in. I know yet timing is a thing. And I think where you're advertising it to. And I think as something earlier, one of the earlier comments about why they did or didn't go to makerspaces thought they were either, you know, one of the things was that they're more geared toward children, which is true often. A lot of library event programming is for kids. That's the thing in public libraries. But there's a lot more now being done for adults. So I think you've got to start thinking about where would I now reach out to promote to these adults. So put fires and advertising in the grocery store, in the local bar pub, you know, where you can. Yeah, that was my same thought. We the public library that I'm using their parking lot Wi-Fi right now. They they have more of a teen space, teen makerspace, but they've been doing a lot. And most of their adult events don't happen in the library. So I feel like that's something to think about. Obviously that can get complicated with equipment and stuff. But yeah, thinking about like partnering with a local bar or, you know, different organizations where adults in your community might be might be easier. First, they got a lot of comments that the space wasn't open. So they tried. She's trying to do after 7 p.m. programs that people still aren't coming. Yeah, this might be a case to do. And someone else has comments saying, most of the adults we get are there with their kids. They've been their kids for something and then they get and then you can entice them and do, hey, here's an adult thing you can do. And I wonder if there's a time to step back and do the survey of the adults and find out. I mean, you said most of the comments were that the space wasn't open when they wanted to come. Well, you've done things at other times and it's still not working. Maybe a more proactive survey of the adults in your community of what do you want, do you want me to do? You know, don't just assume, you know, I mean, which we do, we know, we know a lot as experts of what to offer, but outright ask them and said, okay, we've got all this equipment's all here. And you seem to say you want to use it because you're complaining that it's not open when you want to be here. What do you want? And then. Well, and one other thing along those lines is like, I actually get a lot of people who they say, well, I can't make it to the workshop at that time, but can I come by another time and do it? So I feel like even if you're having that workshop and maybe it's not well attended, you're still telling the story and like letting people know like, oh, you can do this at the library. So I think it's important to have, if you can, to try to have, if you can have supplies available so somebody can come by and do it later, granted that takes that time too. But yeah, just like maybe trying to think of ways to, to maybe host that workshop as a like, let people know that they can do it, but then also have opportunities for them to do it on their own time or come in and, you know, do it outside of that workshop time. All right. And so I did also make a suggestion which relates to that. I think we've had some success with make and take projects. Pre-packaged on one projects are simple. People can come in any time, choose one and do it. So have some, you know, made things like that. I know a lot of places now because of the COVID-19 are doing for their summer reading and just for anything, but that's the biggest thing coming up, take, make and take, you know, prepackage kits of here's what we would have done as the craft project this week with the kids, take it home and do it. That's great. I know actually I'm curious if folks are willing to share, like how they're adapting, if you're doing makerspace programming, how you're adapting to pandemic because I got to be honest, the future of the mini makerspace is not looking so bright right now. Yes, we did have that trouble here. The thing we are doing here, like you're talking about this grant, it's called Library Innovation, Library Innovation Studios is the grant that we have here that we're doing. And we've actually, it's a four sets of equipment that we put in each library for about 20 weeks or so, and then it moves to another library and then moves to another library so you get a taste of it. And we've been doing it for a couple of years and this is supposed to be the last year and our current libraries that were supposed to have the equipment, of course, everybody closed in March and three of our libraries just didn't get their equipment yet. And everything's been postponed because nobody wanted to be open and having the whole idea is get more people in the library and that was the opposite of what we wanted to be doing right now. No, it's so hard because I feel like the, you know... We're on pause with ours right now. Yeah. Oh, I was just going to say that the, for me, like the whole point of having the makerspace is to create this community and you know, you're bringing people together and people are, you know, you have like peer to peer learning and I just, I'm like, I don't know how to do that without a physical space. So I love, you know, I'm like, I've definitely thought about, yeah, these like make and take kits and the ways that we can continue the makerspirit, but it's, yeah, it's so hard to think about losing that in-person element because it's so important. And someone does have a suggestion which it's got its pluses and minuses. She even says, all videos here, which I don't love doing at all. There's only so many coding and Tinkercad videos people want to watch. So I mean, we're doing all these videos of, you know, Facebook live of the, of the reading, story times and all these, you know, celebrities reading books so that you, you know, you have something still going on interactive same kind of thing with some of your, some of your makerspace stuff you could do a video of how it would work, but they still can't come in and use the biggest pieces of equipment because they can't do it. That's the hard thing is like, so we, you know, we thought about like adapting our workshops and like, oh, should we do videos or that? And it's like, yeah, it's so hard because really I think one of the biggest reasons people come is because they either get access to equipment or it's like, hey, we're giving you these supplies for free. So yeah, the sticks are low because you don't even have to, you know, you don't even have to pay for it. And they leave with something they've made themselves. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's so hard to think about how to adapt that. And then of course, you know, for us, the biggest issue is like, we're, for us, like I said, it's a small operation. So we're not a priority when we look at budgets. So when we're talking about decreasing the budget, it's just, it's really easy to say, oh, well, let's, let's stop offering these workshops on stop motion animation because how does that feed into the mission of the library, which I can make a case for but it's hard to, it's hard to argue for some of these things alongside some of our, like core services. So yeah, it's, it's definitely a tricky time right now. There's certain other things that are much easier, have been easier to translate into the building being closed, but we can still offer this, a version of the service. Yeah. And she says, exactly, I hate to try to make videos showing them all the cool things we have that they can't use right now. So hard. So cool, yeah. Yeah. Is anyone here, like 3D printing PPE equipment or like sewing masks or anything? That was something, yeah. We had a lot of libraries here in Nebraska doing that. Our innovation studio is actually the one at the university that was working with us in this grant actually switched completely to providing that service and doing it. Not anything else they were doing related to our grant or anything else. And even delivered some things to, I think, New York or somewhere. And we do have a couple of people that said, yep, they are doing that. Yeah. Yeah. That's good to hear. That's, well, and some of my colleagues, other makerspaces on our campus have been able to do that. But we, I mean, we don't even have a 3D printer in our space. So we don't, we're not set up for that. And we've been completely cut off from our building. So those is yes, printed a ton of face shields and I made so many masks. Demand has dropped off, but I'm still sometimes sewing. That's super. Our makerspace has a sewing machine, which is awesome. Yeah. And as they do, yeah, you can use your current makerspace. You ask people to donate the fabric, or if you have the fabric, you know, if you had, like you're mentioning, saying, that's a similar line between two, you've stocked up on the supplies to use the equipment. So you've got a stack of fabric, cut it into the pieces and then give it to people to take home to sew for people who have their own home sewing machine or whatever, at least some sort of a. Yeah. I was thinking about that idea too for, for when our fall semester starts just like a little baggy with all the supplies you would need. And then we've got a few sewing machines. Maybe you could check out a sewing machine or maybe you've got one, but yeah, just giving the, the supplies for people to make it themselves. I know the embroidery machines we are providing to our makerspaces are, they're large, you know, it's a big sewing machine, but they come in a case that you can, on wheels. So could be checked out to people if they wanted to. Yeah. Nice. If they know how to use it. It's a lot more complex than my personal sewing machine, don't tell you, but all that embroidery stuff is one level above me, but it has still as the basics on it as well. Thanks. We didn't have a comment from earlier that I missed because we got talking about how to deal the makerspaces now the pandemic, but you're talking about the vinyl cutter. And this person says you can also use the vinyl cutter for making Klingons to make bumper stickers. Oh, cool. Just for, yeah. Yeah. We've done, yeah, I've said like laptop stickers for our students or whatever is how I've tried to spin it. But one, one thing that we use it for that I love is for screen printing. So like we cut out, you cut out this like a stencil on vinyl and then you stick the vinyl onto a screen and then you can, we usually screen print tote bags. But that's been one way that we've used the vinyl cutter a lot. That's, it's very supply-intensive and can't get expensive, but it's a lot of fun. I know a big thing that a lot, I know because my niece and nephews are huge into it is those, the water bottles where they are constantly switching out the stickers on them. Oh, yeah. Hydroflastics and things. They're just crazy about those things. So making personal ones for that and have coming what's the new cool thing that you're into this week? Okay. Make a new cut, make a new vinyl sticker for it. Put it on your water bottle. I know. I'm surprised that, man, that thing, I think it's like a couple hundred bucks for those. That's just like the button maker. I'm like, we have paid for that thing over and over. I mean, with how much we've used it. It's really, I mean, you do have to supply the supplies of vinyl or whatever material you're working with. But yeah, there's so many uses for that. Yeah. I think the vinyl cutter is one of the most popular ones. With the the grant that we're doing, we put the equipment in the libraries, like I said, for a limited period of time. And the idea is you get the community interested in the particular pieces and then the library can use that jump to get donations to the community or for the library budget to buy their own pieces of the same equipment. The company doesn't stay in the libraries. Yeah. So we are tracking and vinyl cutter button makers are big ones. Here and there, they've done 3D printers and CNC routers and other things. But ideally, you know, because it's got so it's so versatile, so many different things people are coming up with of ideas of what to do with a button maker or the vinyl cutter. Yeah. Well, I'm going back to what we've been talking about. It's like those things have value and people want to use them. People want access to them and there's no shame in that, you know, just because it's not some big fancy piece of equipment that no one's ever heard of doesn't mean that it doesn't fit into your maker space or doesn't fit into, you know, the role of your library. So I love seeing like, yeah, I mean, button makers are always a crowd pleaser and it's great to see. Yeah. All right. So we're a little after 11 o'clock here. So I think we'll wrap up any last words you want to share? Oh, um, no. No. No. Maybe even posture syndrome, et cetera. I think that's what I want to say is like, I just appreciate everyone joining me today and I hope that I've given you maybe some things to think about if you if you've encountered imposter syndrome. I hope you're taking pride in your library and any kind of maker space work that you're doing. And I hope that you'll talk to other people about your imposter syndrome because I think it's it's it's very widespread. And I think it's just it just helps to have a community of people that you can work through with. Yeah. Thank you so much. As I said in the beginning, this imposter syndrome in general is the thing that's been around. I'm sure in other professions, but definitely in library ones, I've heard many many colleagues talking about it over the years. But specific to library maker spaces does have its own things that you need to think about and deal with. Yeah. All right. So just some thank yous coming. So all right. So thank you so much, Leanne, for being with us here today and figuring out how to do it quickly on the fly from the from the library there that Monroe County Public Library to get it right. That's right. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. Shout out to you guys for providing us with the ability to have our show today. And thank you everybody for attending. 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That is because this is the full archive of Encompass Live from the beginning. Our first episode I'm not going to scroll all the way down here. We first broadcast your first episode in January 2009. So we've been doing this about 10 years now and all of our archives are here on this one long page. So we do a limited if you want to just search the most recent 12 months but whenever you are searching here just pay attention to the original broadcast date of something. Many of these shows will stand the test of time and will still be relevant. Good you know best new children's books of 2017 and probably still good children's books now in 2020. But some things may be outdated. You may find some services and products that don't exist anymore. Some that have changed some links might not work anymore. Just pay attention to your original broadcast date when you are watching any of our archives. But we are librarians. We this is what we do. We archive things for historical purposes. So we'll always keep all of these up there for you to have. But we do have a Facebook page for Encompass Live. You can see a link here and here it is over here. So if you do like use Facebook give us a like over there. I did a little shout out to the library who is providing our internet for you this morning. So we'll put reminders on here and when today's show is starting up when our recordings are available for previous episodes. So a few times a week you'll get posts from me on here. So if you do like to excuse me give us a like over on Facebook to keep up with what we are doing. So that we'll wrap it up for today's show. I hope you join us next week when our topic is who are these people and why are they in my library? Hopefully they'll be coming back into your library. Using empathy and user design UX to understand your library patrons. We have Jennifer Dijong from Metropolitan State University and Richard as a user experience consultant will be joining us next week to talk about how to figure out what's going on in your library. Maybe not a lot of people coming in right now but it's something good to be thinking about and looking at for the future. So please do join us for next week show any of our other upcoming ones. You see I've got shows coming up in July and I'm confirming finalizing some other ones so keep an eye on the calendar to see when those other dates get filled in and what the topics are. So then that thank you very much everyone for being here. Thank you very much Leanne for being here with us this morning. Yeah, thanks for having me. And I hope you join us on another time and then come to us live. Bye.