 Thanks, James. So I'm Stephen, this is Norbert. And as, as you know, because you decided to come along to this session, it is going to be a work session. But forgive us, we are going to talk at you for a bit just at the start to, Hi, no problem, come on in. Just to set the scene and describe a bit more what we, what we have been doing. I've just remembered, I need to switch this from mute to on. So should we have some online participants like should be able to hear us. Okay. It's a bit of a cliche, isn't it. We certainly live in uncertain times, who would have thought it going back, you know, 24 months that all the things that have happened, geopolitical changes climate changes impact pandemics, financial crises. And that's just the big stuff and then there's what's going on in our own institutions, changing landscape it's just a tremendous amount going on. And we thought at the Centre for online and distance education where we both work at the University of London, but it would be useful for all of us to try and get a sense of where we're going. And what can we do about it as as individuals and as institutions so this session is to some extent about helping, helping you to scope out your personal agency that just how much agency how much control have you got over the future and what is it you want to do about it. And that of course begs the question well what is the future going to hold for us. And given that we live in very uncertain times that's a really difficult question to answer and spoiler alert, we haven't got the answer. But we have some ideas. And so the practical side of this is about developing a strategy to help deal with the changes that are coming down the line, whatever they may be. And, and you may want to think about those as individuals, or if you're here as if you've got colleagues from your own institution might want to work with them as a group, or you might want to work in a mixed group will look at that when we get to the actual practical bit. There's a summary there up there what we're going to be doing we're going to explain the context we can talk about the methods we used. We did a big literature review so we'll summarize that introduced some tools that we have used and some that we are using now in this next and final phase, and as part of this introduced for scenarios, and will will actually give you those. The methodology is as I said we've had a literature review and we've had a number of workshops where we've asked people to brainstorm what they think are the big issues that we're facing now and that we're going to be facing in the not too distant future. We've, we've shared the results of those and run further what workshops, and out of that identified a range of drivers, and there's a, there's a summary on the right hand of the screen there so scientific and sorry sexual technical environmental. Economic and political, yeah, drivers drawn out of the various bits of literature that we've pulled together and people have been asked to rank those in terms of which they think are going to have the most impact, which are the most important, and out of that we developed some scenarios of possible and perhaps likely futures and that's what we're going to be working with so you can see we've already done a lot of work here. And we've got to the really important bit, which is, okay, if that's how it's going to be, what are we going to do about it, what we do in terms of developing strategies to cope with all of this. So that's a quick outline of where we've got to and where we're going and I'm going to hand over to Norbert now to talk about the literature review while I hand out the scenarios. Yes. Thank you very much. Clearly, as you can imagine, there is an absolute wealth of literature. And in particular, if you've looked at the journals, as well as other literature coming from private resources from technology tech companies and so forth. There's a big hype about new technologies, doing some work with Keith Turvey at Brighton at the moment. And we're looking at what's been published about AI and learner analytics alone in journals, and it's next to impossible to try and really capture the full wealth. The interesting thing is, of course, that there's no really significant findings coming through yet. There's a lot of hype, there's loads of words, but it's not really clear yet where that's gonna go. We have obviously got a literature review for you to read. And at the end of this presentation, we got a link, you can download it, and you can have a look at it. But here's just a very, very quick set of bullets that give you an idea of what we looked at. So yes, we did look at new technologies and what they bring. We tried wherever possible to have a particular focus on online and distance learning in the literature we looked at. We recognized that the potential and the affordances of technology are needed to be looked at specifically vis-à-vis pedagogical considerations as well as the student experience, learner practices and their acceptance of the technology. And you can just see that that is a massive field and it's quite challenging to try and skim those sufficiently. And what we also looked at was higher education sector trends. We can see that higher education is in transformation, is under siege, huge pressure from political quarters, huge financial pressures, huge pressures in terms of digital transformation. So a very, very strong sense of uncertainty about what higher education is actually for and what the role of universities, institutions, as we know them at the moment, is going to be in the future, given in particular what is emerging around notions of platformization and the extent to which commercial providers are starting to infiltrate the ways in which universities operate. And the point about agency that Steven mentioned earlier on, I feel personally very strongly because what I cannot serve from my perspective is very often a rather unquestioning adaptation and adoption of commercial solutions without necessarily sufficient consideration of the last point on this list, ethics. We continued to be concerned about digital inequalities and what the literature had to say about that. And as I mentioned why the learning industry to trends and of course some of the really interesting and it might be very important work that's coming out from people like Neil Sullivan around sustainability and the extent to which given what seems about climate change and the challenges that the planet is facing that technology placed there so don't expect a massively in depth coverage, but we tried to look at breadth to really understand what the drivers were. And if you were to look at the next slide, you could see some of the main trends, many of which I'm sure are fairly familiar to you. I think one of the things we continue to see and find a challenge is the perpetual obsolescence of technology and the really rapid and increasingly rapid pace of change and being able to keep up with that is really important both in terms of institutionally and what are the best long term strategies given that there's so much churn and change but also as a from a learner perspective, where to put one's money and on what technologies to bet in that sense. And I think we found that flexibility was an important theme of flexibility of choice and the attendant agility of adoption, but also at the same time, the theme of resilience in terms of learning design and infrastructure as well as the individual level learner resilience and being able to cope with all this plethora of opportunities there. And I think we all recognise that that clearly AI is going to play a very important role. I'm not going to talk about it here in terms of the literature review, because you will find it comes through the scenarios acquired strongly. I think that's all Steven wants to say about the literature review unless you think we want to add something. Thanks Norbert. So, we saved you an awful lot of work by by carrying out this literature review and as I said we then out of this tried to pull out what the main drivers might be and we went through a number of iterations and as you can see from this slide. Inevitably there was some variation and there was some outstanding, if you like, first choices, what people thought were really going to be affecting us in in the not too distant future indeed already are. It's interesting AI came up again and again just as it did this morning with people saying oh AI is going to be a really big thing and other people saying oh no not more AI, because we just don't know. But it's there, just quite how it's going to affect us we don't know yet but it's it's, it's definitely going to be part of the mix and it's one that came out very strongly indeed. So you can see we looked, looked at what the literature was was saying in terms of social technical economic environmental and political change and asked the participants in the workshops to vote for those and you can see from the highest voted left hand column there these are the things that came out really strongly. That then gave us a choice because we couldn't work with all of these. And so what we decided to do was to focus down on two main areas one was AI and one was a grouping of drivers to do with geopolitics so it. It pulls in things like, well, if there's climate change that's going to affect food supply and water supplies and that to affect migration and then that's going to affect politics. Because you start getting wars or you start people borrowing other countries resources or having special operations. So we bought it down to these two sets of drivers AI, which is going to be big somehow. The participants collectively felt and geopolitics of one sort or another. And then we set up this matrix and across the top it's the scenarios summaries and scenarios which take a positive view of AI AI is going to be a good thing. That's a relief. And down the left hand side, geopolitics are going to be a negative thing or if you like down the right hand side they're going to be positive so you end up with four quadrants and in the top right hand corner as you see we've got a best case. The geopolitical situation is going to settle down. It's all going to be very positive AI is going to have a very positive impact and so life is going to be good. And in the bottom left hand quadrant, the absolute opposite geopolitical context is going to get very messy indeed and AI is not going to be a very happy partner for online and distance education and we've got we've got variations obviously in between. You've got a much more detailed description of these scenarios on paper in front of you and we'll look at these in more detail in a few minutes anyway but that was just to give you an overview of where we're going with this. Okay. And the question of course is, if, if one or some combination of these four scenarios is going to be the future, or similar to the future something like the future. What do we do about it, that all the tools we've used so far have been drawn from the futures tool kit developed by the UK website action program so that the tools specifically developed to analyze and and think about and plan futures. And this is the next step this is looking at so where do we go to from here, you can see there was a, it's did there, and there are some time estimates for how much time you need to do them. We're going to be a bit at back casting and no we haven't got four and a half to five hours we're going to do that casting light. That casting basically just means, okay, let's put what we've got look at where we want it to how do we bridge the gap between what we've got and where we want to go. So that's what we're going to be doing. And Norman's going to talk to us about an example. So I think it's coming back again to the point that Stephen made about agency. It's obviously very easy to become fatalistic in the context of the sheer significant size scale of the transformations that are happening. And that's one of the things to which we tend to have a fairly, fairly limited leverage over the external drivers that intact in us. And one of the things I think and I think we as a group felt was really, really important to avoid is as a result to really our own sense of professional agency and just hand over to tech companies to find solutions for us and to design in all sorts of unfair commercial advantages to them in the tools and the services and the systems they provide. So I think it is really, really important in terms of the strategic thinking, not just to think about institutional level strategy, not very many of us have the opportunity to really impact that but to understand that strategy is a highly stratified process and that wherever we are sitting and I only know some of you here in terms of your roles, we do have a significant opportunity in impacting change and ensuring that the change that does happen goes in the direction that we as you know want to see. And the example from my own institution that I think helps to illustrate that very briefly is the sort of multi layered mitigation approach we adopted to the pandemic a few years ago. What I think we did well and work well was the fact that we managed to find an overarching conceptual frame that allowed us to really align all the responses across academic pedagogic technical financial and so forth. In a really coherent way by identifying a number of key principles that everybody in the institution shared and managed to understand so we could all really operate effectively and contribute to strategy at our respective levels. And for us, it was this whole notion that learning was a social activity despite the fact that students were dislocated from us physically and what can we do to ensure the connect connectivity of learning and of learners. How can we build a strong sense of community. How can we achieve positive student experiences by enabling strong structures and so we identified various different layers at which we needed to operate and I think it's really important that yes technology was an important layer and decisions about which technologies to use and how it was important, but it was equally important to recognize that this would only work if it's based on partnership based working both in terms of partnership with students partnership with colleagues and also partnership with digital technology partners. And that it was really important to achieve a staff engagement through appropriate staff development and that we ensured we had the necessary investment, not just in the digital infrastructure, but also in people and in resources around this notion of connected learning that you know the time has moved on and other priorities have emerged and connected learning may no longer be the right conceptual frame, but what I'm hoping this brief example might help to serve us is a way of thinking about your engagement now with the scenarios that we want you to have a look at and things going to explain how that's going to work in a moment, but to think about your own personal agency through your professional roles through the networks that you're part of through the influence that you can bring to bear in relation to partners and to achieve a beneficial sort of positive future you may have all sorts of other examples of how this operated at your institutions but I think it's this stratification of levels. That's really important so we don't as a sector as a group of very influential people responsible for the education of the next generation, a set out to commercial interest and always a question. Why we are changing and how we can use technology and most effectively Stephen do you want to set up the. Yep. task. Thank you, so. You've got a choice now. We weren't sure how many people were going to get and whether we'd have to force you to join groups and be chummy or whether you could relax and work on your own so it really is up to you as I said at the beginning if you're here with institutional colleagues you might want to form an institutional group. You might want to form a group around one of these scenarios, or you might wish to be standoffish and work entirely on your own. It's, it's up to you. Okay. But the idea is that, however, whichever way you do it you select a scenario. And then you use a simplified version of this backcasting technique to look at feasible and desirable interventions that could be made. As Norbert suggested we're looking at your agency in in your roles at present, looking around the room I don't think I'm in the presence of any vice chancellors. You don't have believers to pull to make it happen. But you do have influence and you do have networks you have contacts, so we're going to be thinking a bit about that. So this next stage draws on the, the, the futures foresight tool backcasting. So we're going to go a bit on some of Peter checklands ideas about soft systems methodology developed in the last millennium. God, so long ago now. But it's still good stuff, because it focuses on what's feasible and what's desirable. And it also draws a bit on the work we did that with the gist curriculum design and development program, where we're looking at. So you do want to bring about significant change in an institution and you don't have those levers. How do you do it. And the answer is, you network with key stakeholders so we're going to look at a bit like that. So, for each, having looked at the scenario that you think is most close to where your institutions going. There could be feasible and desirable interventions, things that could be done, not solutions, just changes, sometimes quite small changes that could be made for each of those you need to identify. So who are the key stakeholders here, who are the people who have got believers, who do I need to get on board. Sometimes they're not obvious they're not, they're not, they're not the ones with the fancy title sometimes it's the students. So what are the stakeholders, what do you need from them to make this intervention work to make it happen. And what are they going to get out of it, because they're not likely to do it unless they can see what's in it for them. You've got a worksheet it looks like that. This the interventions think about the stakeholders think about the contribution you want from them, and what's in it for them what are the benefits to them how are you going to persuade them to get on board. Okay. You've got the scenarios in great detail there. There's a summary there which I'll leave up on the screen for people who are joining us online so they can see that. Now it's up to, we've managed to keep it to just under half an hour of talking at you apologies for that but we felt we needed to go through that bit. But now it's your turn to get stuck in so you need to choose a scenario choose who you're working with and start thinking about so what would I need to change him. And I think the other thing to bear in mind is of course, we did develop the scenarios through workshops with all sorts of professionals from as wide a range as possible as we give a wider range of institutions and context as we could manage. But by no means definitive or final or ideal so if you have any views on the scenarios themselves and want to offer some critique on them in some way based on your experience I think we'd be very interested in that as well Steve. Yeah, absolutely. So any questions. Apart from can we go and sit outside in the sun. Okay, right up to you and we'll float about to do that bit. Yes. You'd like to go back to that one. Yeah, so that's okay. Sure. I'll just join one of these tables now. We may want to put the scenarios on against. Yeah. Can I put the scenarios back up now is that right. Thank you. Any of it. We've got a couple of weeks at least here on the table. You've got how many threes them. Work with that. Yeah, so you've got to even if it isn't it's close to your. Just to see in that sort of context what type of interventions might we be thinking about. Yeah. So one of the things this would, for example, mean the entire premise upon which they find seems to work at the moment, namely UK at huge cost to the environment, cost to the environment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So with my own institution, for example, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, how optimistic are you feeling? Fine, that makes it very clear. But for my own institution, for example, 50% international students, and that obviously is not because we don't want to educate UK students, but because the funding that we get for UK... Makes some aspects of it better. That's money, for any of you who are familiar with this. So that's how it works. Yeah, yeah. If you march in with a solution, everyone will go, we didn't invent that, so we're not going to do it anyway. And if you don't have a duality of the context in which the UK government tries to isolate itself from everyone, then it has completely prohibited visa regimes in place and all that, you know, becomes very volatile. Get them a knighthood, not telling them whatever. Yes, dependents, yeah, so that's, students from certain countries, and of a certain age range who need to bring their families. So this project could have been, so that's the answer to his dream. And then I think where you would be now. Good move. We are very close. Well, we close our borders now. But there is this... There's something good about everything. It's just sort of like in the worst case... The significant growth in the percentage. That as far as the things more broadly, what... The same to the 8%, it worked fine. But these sorts of questions. At least. Probably a good one. Online as a means of instruction. That's like all it... I think it was almost like a negative one. But really, they all did. I was just thinking about videos. Sort of the experience. I'll give to the context. Yeah. You were a server and everyone... Oh, kind of here, here. It's going to be a video for the teacher. It's going to be the film in front of a cinemar or a camera and then put it up against me in a few months. Yeah. The online assessment is still in its relative interest. I think AI is going to go down that same way. We've got this... There will be a time when it comes around where it suddenly becomes a useful tool. I think even... I don't know if you've seen Teach-A-Matic, which is a tool that's out there, an AI tool. And what it's doing is it's helping people go across to provide... And that's to be understood when we're still there. But I do think it's going to be a very, very positive product. I agree. Starting off the next chance to move, it actually is. Because everyone said that peer-to-peer networks is going to destroy television and... I don't think it's... No. Anyway. It still takes too much effort. Even if you just read the script. The important thing is to choose a scenario and do some work on it to get a feel for the methods. No, no, not at all. And if you can't agree, then split. Yes, let's work towards disaster. Let me get to that. Obviously, in the next 25 minutes or less, you're not going to come up with a coherent, detailed plan for your institution. But to give you a feel... Ah, fantastic! I'll just go in. Then the person checks and I'll check to see if there's some problem. Oh, what? I must have a look. I mean, it's the kind of thing we're expected to read to say, isn't it? Let's face it. Regulation is very much set to play out at the moment. But the simpler thing is, I mean, the investigation and the resources... Okay, so it's thinking globally. Yeah, it's like giving it your text, most possibly. Right. Counting the situation, international collaboration. So, interesting now is if... Yeah. I'm going to pick a scenario. It doesn't matter. So if you want to take off your phone, what's going to happen? What's your institution going to do about it? You're not the Vice Chancellor. But maybe in your... There's something for each... The Woodhead. For that, presumably the answer. Yeah, around technology and digital transformation, because there's a massive push on that as a... That was really set in terms of consumers. And to compare their everyday life habits with what the university... And yeah, I feel like all that type of doing things that actually save resources and how and stuff like that. We don't have to add anything to that. Actually, you know, I suppose in vain, you find the thinking world that I'm saving all that travel. All right, so obviously it's perceived as raising it up. Energy consumption. Yes, yeah. And even if you're using the use of technology, right there, using a year and a half, there's not that sense of, you know, I have to pay you 10,000 euros to get back into the current... Is being in a position any more than I am, any of us, to do anything about that huge power consumption of the service, the service firms. There's no feasible design or change that we could come up with that was... We could... I used to work at the leading business school and they were really focused on being like... Something that's close. The situation in Brussels, you know, all the... Well... Consumption... Burn the entire energy consumption of the country. And but it's been such a part of the problem in that way. And you shouldn't start the collaboration... More scale. I'm not able to trace AI usage. But I'm part of the task force that's now working in... Personally, I find that's a bit overrated. You know, spell checkers... It's not as generative as it's... Yeah, it's a concern, but it's not a major concern. So if you're going more down the digital route, then it's going to be a little... So one of the reasons we've come back to the paper is which is... Trading all that students to use it will explain everything. But we need someone like Jessica to bring it back. Well, they can say, if we're developing a paper by the service... Someone, right? So someone has to... Go on, I need some sort of recommendation. Yeah, a shared service, though. And then that they could even... Tremendous books. You know, another university... Right. How are you doing? What scenario is that? Well, we went for... And absorbing the openness of it. Yeah, we went for the openness of it. So we're doing a government scenario. Yeah, it's something very mixed for me. I see you need to know that it's the depressing part. Yeah, it's very hard to do that. Now we're not producing any... But there are positive aspects as well. So... But the inequality out there... So what could you do about inequality? At a local level, you're not the government. But in your institution, what could your institution do? That should pay a lot of attention to that. What sort of inequality are we talking about here? Could you make courses freely available? Yeah, okay. So that sounds like it's a door that's already opening. So that makes it sound to me like it's desirable. And it's feasible because people are already talking about it. So there's nothing grand or magic about this process. Very often it will be picking on things that other people are already thinking about. But trying to pull it all together and importantly thinking about... So who do we need to get on board here? Who are the stakeholders? Who would you need to convince to, I don't know, produce a bunch of MOOCs that maybe could be accredited by some industry group? We're defining the scenarios, but have you actually defined the way we want to move things? Good questions. Yeah. Yeah, the scenario is described what is perhaps likely to happen. But what do you want? If you think this is the scenario, your institution is likely to find itself in. How do you want to change it? So it doesn't end up like that. So is our aim to preserve... Are we thinking about this purely institutional point of view? Or are we thinking about our impact on wider society? What do we... I think about it in terms of what you actually have agency over. Keep it grounded. This place, that's the... So, Mori, you have a central place. You have a geographic point where you have an understanding of what the power of the place is, so impact with the distance around it. So, of those things, where would you think the university can actually... So, there are a lot of things here that you probably can't make as an institution impact. But universities, things are strong influences in the communities in which they're resetted. So, there must probably be some of the things that I'm sorry to do in order to alleviate some of these hardships that were described here. I think Mori is quite aware of an EPO latest like they had sort of focus on what it was about. I don't know, like the New Jordans and stuff, and like around on purpose, what I'm ensuring that there's actually no like that sort of projects and which is what it's doing. You know, in Mori, it's not anything involved with any kind of... That's a matter of speaking then. I know that you're very serious about that. Yeah, I'm really serious about that. You're really going to be able to do that in the future. Yeah. Thank you for the call. Just how we basically managed with the... No current reference for the current situation in the UK at all. But building safe for a while. And there's a long-term impact of them having been built. If we look at the... Working on the assumption... You'll be stopped this from happening here. You won't change the global climate. But you may change biodiversity in and around the university in a positive way. So about the influence you have to be on the industry. The massive thing happening is we'll be praying them. Leaders in education coming over. And we're advising them with resources and support for them. Because it's their transformation project that they're doing in the praying of the education system. It's going to be huge. And we've got a lot to learn in there. Another 10 years. So if we take that idea and bolt it onto the scenario which suggests that in the future, AI is going to be generating courseware. Which, on the one hand, that doesn't sound too good for us. I thought that was my job. It's gone. But can you take advantage of that to do these new things? Because it must be soaking up a lot of results to be working with the Ukrainians. Providing people to hang on to their jobs. And that's the concern within scenario three. But if you can turn that around. And so we're actually going to take advantage of this. And there's a risk of disconnect somehow. So there's a lot to hear about. AI generated cases, which feels like what might be required. If you want to invest in your local community and environment around you. So it's a business. You don't know if it's that Gina but that's an engineer. Heading. University of Arizona and Sydney and business teams maybe. Yeah. And they're part of the British land. And they're basically, they are based on the site. We kind of do. And they're regenerating the kind of the water side. And the university, the students are part of that process. So British land. They're getting on this. Well, the project already when they arrive. And it says something about authentic assessments. But is there something at least. Well. You do that here. You could regenerate. Well, this is already a pretty good place. But the university would have a strategy for that. But I don't know. Or this, which I will have an impact on the lands on the people. Preventory could certainly benefit from that. Benefit from that. You could try to all that sort of university could take an active role in starting to become a. Layer in local redevelopment. I mean, it probably is already. That's quite a virtue of it. Being there. Being an effort. Hopefully, I think the entity on the whole. So I thought it would basically change that. And through that, it could develop research programs. And now that horizon is back on. Thank God. Scenario planning. The EU is going to put a lot of money into that. Yes. And you could use. Exactly. Yeah. So I think that's a really interesting line of thought. And the next step then would be so. Who at Warwick would you need to get on board with this? It sounds like some of it's already happening, but who do you need to get together? What, what would you need them to do? What would you need from them? To make specifically this idea. Well, And what's in it for them? And maybe his research profile and. Billions of euros flooding back into the country. And so on. Yes. Should we. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We've got 10 minutes to solve the problems of the world. We've solved, we've mostly solved them now. Excellent. Just turn off the electricity. We've got 10 minutes left around. How are you doing? Good conversation. We'll bring it together to a plenary. Give you a few more minutes. So do you think then with AR, Do you think that it will be when you're not spending four years getting knowledge? I think it's not a nice thing. It's usually the right thing to do if you have a written assignment. You can't check whether it's actual. Yeah, I think with these very sort of orientated, the challenge is always keeping abreast, isn't it? Because knowledge evolves very rapidly. And it's in the case that in a working life, you almost ditched most of what you learned at university and over the process of years, develop and acquire new knowledge. So if that's how it really is a lot of the time anyway, then how important is that first body of knowledge that you get at university? Or are we more interested in talking about this a lot? You're talking about developing the skills of acquiring and constructing knowledge rather than storing it. And I must confess, I wouldn't be happy with the doctor or a dentist working on me having no knowledge and consulting chat GPT live. But nevertheless, I think it's worth thinking about just how much would they actually have to know in order to begin practice? I mean lots of areas. You still have GPs. You're not here anymore. You can't get seat up to see. I think if you're poor, you're supposed to die because that saves the states. But I think one must also underestimate the AI. We're going to wrap it up in two minutes. I think we're going to end by many answers. Can we do something to break that somehow within this project? Is there a way of almost trying to get students? We already had a challenge. We met some students at the top so they didn't have access to the internet. How do we know what their challenges are? You must find it, I guess. In your work, the expectations that they come and they are tech savvy and they know exactly what to do, they plug them in and they're away. I'm so fed up with it because of the pandemic. We're going to have to pull it together now. Do you mind if I ask you to report back on where you've got to? I'm expecting you to have solved the planet's problems, but it would be interesting to know where you are and what you think in the process. We're going to have to interrupt because you've got a bit of a flow going there, which is good. You can't do what you want to do. It's a much harder challenge. How are we going to create and have the new knowledge? We'll have to pull it together now. We can't do in 25 minutes what's supposed to take four and a half to five hours, but we're interested to hear back from you. We'll ask the table just to report back very briefly on where you've got to and what you think in the process. Right, everybody. As I've already pointed out, this exercise is according to the foresight tools, government sites supposed to take four and a half to five hours. You've had roughly 25 minutes. We're not expecting finely crafted comprehensive solutions. It's a start, okay, and we're interested if we could start with this table just to hear where you've got to in this process and what you think of it. Don't be shy. We started looking at how institutional organisations were already doing stuff. Small steps, small things, and we talked about the impact we have at a local level, and by making small changes at a local level, it can all join up. At a national or international level, and we talked through some cases and examples of that, and we also discussed the role of students in that process. And we just briefly said about ownership, giving them ownership. Sometimes I think I don't know what students like and guess what their problems are, but they know their problems. My guess is that sometimes very wrong. So it's just thinking about how we embed that student voice and give them opportunity and work with colleagues from across the UK, the world, twinning with institutions, but just taking small steps with local environment, and working with different industries locally and embedding approaches with colleagues in a new world where new skills will be needed. And yeah, is there anything on this? Ukraine. We spoke a lot about Ukraine and how an example is that we're working with leaders and leaders in education over in Ukraine. It's a great week to share where they're at and we're sharing what we're at and it's mutual learning opportunity because they're undertaking massive transformation. And so this two way conversation and how small conversations with certain colleagues can make massive impact within our own individual practice and then more collectively at an institutional level. Super. Thank you very much. So small steps working like specific concrete examples like Ukraine, like local industry. Yeah, that's how this stuff works. So very early days but I had a sense that a lot of energy from this table and that you're actually getting somewhere. So, well done amazing in the time who's going to speak. Richard. We were doing last chance to learn as well so we were getting good, we got a little obsessed with energy so we kind of went down that to a large degree. I mean one thing was that the AI tool use chat GBT we're arguing for a local version of that and just thinking you know can we work with someone like just to provide basic as another service their own AI tool that's using our own data and then providing it back to us. So that would massively reduce the reliance and because we know they're a massive environmental hub. We talked about sourcing alternative, you know, we've got the we've got the roofs to put the solar with potentially got the underground to go down to geothermal. You know, reduce our over reliance on other energy sources and try and just look back at how we use energy and think can we capture can we use more batteries can we balance out the energy flow rather than just treating energy as a constant always on kind of service. We had some ideas about my message per day per person which was basically more about limiting limiting access to the internet and what we just so used to having into that constantly on and constantly sending messages all the time you know what I think it was not for like only over a couple of hours or something I don't know but that how much would that change this bit man. And then one of the things we talked about the end displays and just the fact we're sitting here with all these projectors churning out heat and it'll be really nice thing. You know we were this remarkable tablets they were advertising upstairs and integrate innovation because they only use energy when they do change display so why can't we move more than that direction. And, you know, because there are many displays we all usually always have to on at any moment in time. So we got one track my with energy but but that's good because you've got focus. Sorry, can did you want to add to that. Well, also, looking at having a great distribution of sources of energy. You know, kind of like if you get bombed or if you have a hurricane and solar panels are ripped off rules or power stations are disrupted. Then if you've got other entities kind of plugged into the grid that are feeding power, then the whole thing doesn't have to go. Okay, thank you. So again, big problems, but but small and tangible specific things that could be done to improve the situation. Right. Last of all, not least I'm sure we chose the wishful thinking we felt that we needed some positivity. We started out discussing context differences, which were interesting because you're from Australia and from Belgium. We felt that the high pressure that maybe exists in the UK on universities is different in our context. So we came from a different starting point and had had some we need some time and some times by you to get a focus on what actually were we trying to think about what actually are we trying to establish with these scenarios. And we didn't get to any intervention we had a very interesting conversation about all the aspects that would might be interesting in the future. So in that sense it enlightened me but we didn't come up with anything, you know, useful for anyone else I think it would have been almost a miracle if you had in the time and under the conditions we're working. But but I think conversations and interesting notion isn't that's what we're doing we start a conversation. So what we what we are hoping that one or more of you might want to take this further. We're interested in having a conversation between us in the University of London and other institutions. We would very much like to see a project happening that we could work with to actually try and implement these ideas in an institution or more. I don't think I understand the implications of that question. So how about the answer is maybe how about we talk about. Sorry, how about. Yeah, that'd be lovely. We'll do. Okay, right. Okay, we've eaten into your lunchtime sorry about. Thank you very much for your participation I hope you found it useful. I think you found it enjoyable but.