 As it appears, we will continue with our third talk show session. I hope everyone here is still in the mood and also we will be having a coffee break later during the session. So I would now jump in with our third session, which is the environment and livelihoods of people facing global crisis. But before we do, I would like to once again invite the speakers onto the stage who is with us today. Please give a round of applause for our first speaker or our first panelist, Professor Surya Tarigan, a professor at IPB University. Can I have a round of applause for Professor Surya Tarigan? Thank you. Next, I would like to also invite onto the screen, joining us virtually is Miss Beatriz Fernandez, a representative from UNEP. Good afternoon. Can I have a round of applause for Miss Beatriz Fernandez? Again, I would like to invite onto the screen Miss Beatriz Fernandez. Hello, Miss Fernandez. How are you? Can we also test your connection and also your voice? Of course. Good afternoon, everyone, and good morning from Geneva. Good afternoon as well, Miss Fernandez. And probably the committee can also help with the volume of Miss Fernandez. And next, I would like to also invite onto the stage, Mr. Mansuetus Darto, the Secretary General of SPKS. Can I have a round of applause for Mr. Mansuetus Darto? Welcome to the stage. Next, please also welcome Miss Sonia Diakusumadewi, the young researcher from C4 and ICRA. Welcome Miss Sonia Diakusumadewi. Please kindly take a seat up on the stage. And also, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Miss Violas Amalia Putri from Yayasan Idea, Indonesia. Please give her a round of applause. Welcome, and it appears there's only one seat left. Please do take a seat. And now we will begin our third talk show session, ladies and gentlemen. And once again, we will be having this discussion in English, hopefully, and probably in Bahasa, whatever is more comfortable. Bahasa Indonesia, Bahasa Inggris, Bebas, Silakan, Senyamannya. But for those of you joining us virtually, you may ask a question to our speakers by proposing a question through Slido. And for those of you who are here in the ballroom, you may also propose a question through Slido or also prepare them. And you can ask them directly to our speakers. Alright, so without further ado, since we are going to talk about the environment and also livelihoods of people facing global crisis, we will jump in in our discussion and we'll probably start with Miss Fernandez first. Miss Fernandez, are you still with us, of course? Can you please come onto the screen? Yes, I'm here. Yes, Miss Fernandez, as we all know that the world is facing many crises right now. And can you please tell us more from your view, how can the environmental sustainability, especially in the palm oil sector, can contribute in addressing this global crisis that we are all facing? Of course, and thank you, Sarah, for this question. I'd like to briefly start by thanking the Center for International Forestry Research, and all the organizers for the invitation to UNEP to participate in this very relevant policy dialogue. And as we know, oil palm is one of the world's most prominent and effective vegetable oils globally and is contributing to 40% of global trade volume in vegetable oils, which of course can step up to feed the growing population across the world. And as we know, Indonesia and Malaysia dominate together more than 80% of the global oil market. And this palm oil is a tropical plant species. It thrives on high rainfall, inadequate sunlight and humidity conditions. And of course, there has been some links with land use change to grow palm oil, linked to emissions of greenhouse gases that contribute of course to the climate crisis, and of course with the loss of nature and biodiversity. At the same time, productivity of oil palm has also been significantly impacted by climate change effects. Interestingly, according to a report by the Malaysian Palm Oil Council, palm oil plantation is a more efficient carbon sink than tropical forest, and thus helping to absorb greenhouse gas emissions. And the council also mentioned that oil palm trees have a higher leaf index that allows for better photosynthetic efficiency, which allows as well to absorb more carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. Equally, palm oil production requires less fertilizers, less pesticides compared to other oil seed crops. And as it stands, palm oil is one of the favorite crop to meet growing demands for vegetable oils, because obviously it has a higher yield in terms of comparing to other oil crop alternatives. And according to a study that was published by Orwell in Data, which is based on the latest UNFAO data, for each hectare of land, 2.8 tons of palm oil can be produced, which is roughly around four times higher than sunflower or rapeseed oil. And therefore it increases the yield per hectare. And at the same time, it can be 10 to 15 times higher than other alternatives such as coconut oil. Therefore, there has been obviously environmental and labor concerns associated with the palm oil sector. However, there is an increasing effort in the sector in terms of environmental sustainability, which can help address the climate and nature crisis. And I'm just going to mention some examples here. For example, and this has been already highlighted in the previous panel, oil palm has been produced with sustainable principles and sustainable standards that can help reverse and hold the forestation by limiting the expansion through the conversion of primary and secondary forests, the conversion of peatlands and other carbon sinks. There's another effort around protecting wildlife and preventing wildfires. And this is by ensuring the upkeep of resilient ecosystems through reduced impact on wildlife and reduced impact on biodiversity and of course the prevention of wildfires. And there's a third element that is reducing the competition with crop lands that are used for food crops. So there are different initiatives and different efforts that are being done in the sector to improve the environmental sustainability. And of course, and this is very well known, the Round Table on Sustainable Palm Oil that seeks to support the sustainable production and use of palm oil and developing standards to ensure the protection of the environment, of the communities, of the farmers, of the consumers. And therefore improving the environmental sustainability of the sector can go a long way in addressing the sector's contribution to tackling climate change, to tackling nature loss. And we see it right now in different efforts that I have outlined today which are helping to improve the environmental sustainability. There are many more opportunities, there are many more factors that are intervening at the moment, but I think in a positive note, it is accelerating the action that different stakeholders are taking to improve the environmental sustainability of the sector. And I'll get back to you on this, Sarah. Thank you very much, Ms. Fernandez. And yes, I would like to also dig the perspectives of our speakers here who are offline at Borobudur. Prof. Suria, in your opinion, the same question. How can the environmental sustainability in the palm oil sector can contribute in addressing the global crisis that we are facing? Thank you very much. I will speak in Indonesian. Please, Prof. So, perhaps the question is about the relationship between the oil palm sustainability with food and climate crisis. So, from this morning, we have connected the oil palm sustainability a lot with the climate and the deforestation. I think it is quite dominant. For the third session, I would like to emphasize a little bit about the livelihood and food system, the relationship between the oil palm sustainability and food system and food crisis. If we talk about the food system, there is quantity and quality. Of course, as long as we are talking about food sustainability, we are still in the form of quantity, not quality. Oil palm sustainability is actually related to all those aspects. That is what I want to see from that point. Before that, perhaps I would like to explain a little bit that our income in Indonesia is only about 25 million hectares. All the crops, including the palm oil, the coffee crops, are about 30 million. So, the income of 30 million is 25 million per harvest. For the capital in Southeast Asia, we have the smallest palm plant, 0.095 per capital. Thailand is bigger, 0.2. Vietnam is bigger. So, we are very small. From that point, how can we connect the oil palm sustainability with the palm? So, we are at a high level. Including, we have been in the field for a long time. How is the amount of the oil that we have now is about 16 million. There is also a process of replanting. How can we combine this with the palm? And we also work together with various researchers from abroad. So, it's not just our idea in the country. It's also a global issue. One of our proposals is to make a link between the oil palm sustainability with the palm, for example, with the integrative system. For example, because of the limit of the palm, our population has been rising to 277 million. And our palm is getting thinner. Of course, we don't have the idea of innovation to connect the neighboring palm. That's what we are doing. And one of the scientists has been in the field for 10 years with one of the scientists in Germany, the integrative system. So, there are three types of integrative system. The first one is inter-crop. It's not common. And maybe it's still hard to do, but we see it as a tourist. Inter-croping until, for example, the Soviet Union was born 4 years ago, it's possible because there are a lot of people who are ready. The canopy is not closed yet, so we can inter-crop, for example, with the palm, with the palm. That's the strength of inter-croping. Well, that's the first one. Then, as line inter-croping, there is increasing tree diversity. Because the palm oil is a monoculture, there are a lot of monoculture. We need to increase tree diversity. There are a lot of systems. In our region, we are known as island of tree, in the ocean of palm oil, for example. So, increasing diversity and also increasing the quality of the palm, livelihood. So, if we look at this livelihood, because if tree diversity increases many pollinators, it will cause the process to grow slowly around the Soviet Union. Then, integrating cattle with the Soviet Union. That's already been tried. So, the third one. In fact, what we see in the future is how the palm oil sustainability can also be integrated by the quality and quantity. And that is what we research and work together with various researchers in the world. Thank you. Thank you, Prof. I mean, I'm still excited to talk about the research. And if, for example, I would like to pass over the question to Ms. Sonya Diakusumadewi from your perspective. What is the impact? Ready for the microphone? Yes. And how can it contribute to the global crisis that we are facing? Thank you, Ms. Hara. I think B-trees and also Pasoria has already mentioned several ways how the environmental sustainability in the palm oil sectors contribute to the global crisis. And I agree with B-trees. I think the other global crisis, especially like food and energy is linked a lot with the climate change. Or now we said it, climate crisis. And because I'm a researcher, so I would like to go back to the discussion in this morning that Pahere already explained and also Pao Kenurwan is asking, what is the environmental sustainability and what is the indicators? And according to our results of the study in C4, two most important indicators according to us related to the environmental sustainability is no deforestation and employment. Why employment considered as environmental sustainability? Because people is also part of the environment. I think it's both important no deforestation and employment. And we see also another study by our team that if we try to implement green trade initiatives, it can contribute, it potentially contribute to the avoiding deforestation, halting the deforestation especially due to, for example, expansion of palm oil. And yeah, I think it is very clear the link of avoiding deforestation with climate change mitigations. And I think it is an important important steps because in the surface most of the respondents are the palm oil stakeholders and they're already aware how to define the sustainability. They're already aware if deforestation, no deforestation means sustainability. What I want to highlight is it is a clear link if we're considering environmental sustainability in all aspects in the farm with the good agricultural practices in the trade, demand from market. I think it can contribute a lot more to the climate change mitigation and it will also contribute to addressing other global issues like food and energy. Alright, thank you very much, Ms. Sonia. And I would like to ask Ms. Vialis, are there any you'd like to add upon this issue as well? Your microphone. Yeah, thank you. Before I answer that, I saw a related apology from Pak Fitriyan because he should be here but then, you know, other tasks that he cannot delegate then I should be here replacing him. So I think Beatriz and also Sonia and Pa Agus already covered most of the point that I want to also discuss here but then I would like to add to that that the sustainable production of palm oil, if we really want to do it sustainably, of course it could contribute to addressing the global climate because, you know, in Indonesia the contribution to climate change mostly from land use change and then it's allegedly that palm oil is the main driver of that land use change. So Beatriz already discussed that as well. It cannot be, you know, if we want to do it sustainably, it cannot be done by, for example, from the industry or from the grower or the producer as well because when we talk about the land use change there's also responsibility from the government because that's a we have the land use plan that agreed and then we already have the government already distinguish the area for development and what for the conservation. So it's really need everyone to sit together and see forward how to approach on this issue. And then as some contribution to the alternative energy, you know since morning we already heard that, you know, comparison between the efficiency of palm oil through the land production but this is like two phases because it can be sustainable alternative energy in the future if you are using palm oil but on the other hand back again to the land use change if it's not and then it's not the production is not the expansion for example it's not made it sustainably, the plan is not really well executed and then the other side we're going to have we're going to increase the carbon because of the land use change while in the other side we expect that we use the sustainable energy. I think that's a point that I could add for this discussion. Thank you very much. Yes, we also have to take into matter and the responsibility of its use as well going forward. And speaking of sustainability we would like to also talk about how, you know, climate energy and also the food crisis impacts the crisis but also how the crisis has impacted the community's livelihood as well, especially oil palm oil farmers here in Indonesia. Therefore I would like to ask the question to probably Mr. Manswet Manswetusdartofurs to be able to give us a perspective on how the crisis has impacted the livelihoods of our farmers. Okay. Thank you. First I would like to answer the question with, for example, in two villages in Jambi, especially because we are reporting about the impact of climate change in the context of women. That is in Tanjung Ben Anak and also in Senyerang. That is the basis of SPKS. First that is if we talk about the impact of climate change and also the food crisis, especially in Tanjung Ben Anak which almost 95 percent have been affected. This is the characteristic of the village that is a little different from the Senyerang village which has 30 percent of the land and 70 percent of the land is a non-savvy village which still has the impact. And also in general the characteristics of the land are different and the majority of the land is in Kalimantan but it is very homogenous for Sumatra where almost no more land especially in Sumatra. I need to go back to the two villages. Regarding climate change in Tanjung Ben Anak in Tanjung Ben Anak Tanjung Ben Anak there is also a direct impact. The direct impact is especially about water. That is the biggest problem in Tanjung Ben Anak where access to clean water is good for the needs of the household or the needs of daily life is very difficult. And if for example the dry season they will only use the remaining water and all of that to consume water and also for cleaning and other things. And for the farmers who can have more than 10 hectares they will buy that gallon for other needs not only for drinking for cleaning and for drinking. And please visit Tanjung Ben Anak village in Tanjung Ben Anak in Tanjung Ben Anak. The first problem is the water. They used to like to make some water in their houses. The water is still quite stable since they left there since 1982 after the transfer and and finally in the last 3 years all the water is dry. If it rains then there is water. But if it is dry then the water is gone. So that is the first problem. The following problem is also related to the house delivery. This is not directly connected. So automatically when there is no water then the connection is to the cost of the income from the farmers. So the income that was only to buy seeds and seeds is then added and so on. And the second problem is to the house delivery. The old one was a small spot that can be counted with the seeds from the farmers that were affected. For example, the fire hose. Now almost all the seeds and seeds in the village were affected by the fire hose. There was no old one. Maybe one or two people. Now there are many. What is the end? Return to the cost. The cost again. The house delivery is added. Meanwhile, the price of the TBS does not go up. The price of the TBS goes up. The income is always the cost. And the risk is for women. Like what? Water supply. The water supply that was only to supply to the husband in the village. Only to supply the money. To save the money. But the mother added to her work. She added to her work and the mother as the next person to save the money. To save the money. And not the husband who saves the money, but the wife. Women. And I think this is the direct impact from the climate change context. But if we ask the farmers in the village whether this is the climate change they don't understand. Because the climate change is not directly to them. So what do you think is the natural and bright thing? Yes. It is more or less like that. In Senerang village it is different. In Senerang village it is like I said the characteristic of the village is different from Tanjung Benanak village. Which still have 70% to 30% of the land. And when the crisis is like the issue of COVID-19 what is the name? What is it? PPKM in the early days there was a process and all of it in order to supply the savit from the people's farms. And also to some companies that do lockdowns. But in this village it never react to that. Because even if it goes down, it still have stock in the village. Compared to Tanjung Benanak village with 95% of the land savit and when the global crisis caused the price of the land to become an angel, they all react. Which has never react to that. But in the village that still have stock, it's safe. So, if we flashback back to the 2008 when the crisis was in the US, maybe there are fathers and mothers still remember until the bottom without exception. But the farmers in West Kalimantan, they are secure with their farms. Why? Because not all of their land is supplied to the savit, they still have cross commodity they have a cart, they have a field for the savit, and the rest are still there. And this is pretty safe, but on the other hand, the characteristics of the savit farmers in Sumatra are very similar. If we talk about the climate crisis in the savit farmers, the danger is when in the last two years, because the price of TBS up to 4,000 rupiah per kilogram there is no warning from the government that this is just a moment. And the people then open the savit. This is dangerous. Because what? When the price goes down to the bottom, the price goes down. There are many reasons. Because the price of TBS is then the other side has other credit and so on. And they still open a new field. This is a problem. And also have to find the middle point. One side we hope for the savit farmers but does the answer have to be the savit? Or those who are there, the rest? Then what? It doesn't matter anymore. Because the government has already said that our dependence is on export of the savit. What is the proof? When exporting and replacing the business of the farmers. What does it mean? We, the savit, is the direction of the trade-up crisis. What is the direction? We try to fix it. The wrong one is fixed. That is also related to the climate change context. It can be said that this is the campaign for black campaign or whatever. But the government has to deal with it. I think that is my first perspective. Thank you, Mr. Manswetus. Prof. Ria, maybe you can add related to the information and the management of Mr. Manswetus. I think what I mentioned before. So, if we talk about sustainability, the contribution of smallholder is also important with the private sector. The smallholder was only 6 million. And the smallholder was very vulnerable. Yes. There was a shock. He immediately experienced a great crisis. Well, so, until the resilience income, I mentioned earlier by Mr. Darto, how to increase the resilience income. That is what I mentioned about the integrative approach. So, if he has 2 or 3 meters, if the price is low, it is difficult to get money. So, I think the integrative approach earlier by trying to diversify is I think the system, whatever the question is, adopts it to increase resilience the shock, the economic crisis and so on. Mr. Darto, one of the main issues to be addressed is the governance or Tata Kelola. So, for the smallholder, Mr. Harris mentioned about 25 restrictions. That is for the new management system. But, most smallholders are below that. So, capacity building for smallholder is still very limited. There has been a research on the level of education for smallholder. Usually, there are many who have never had high education. But, I think Tata Kelola is quite modern because it is used by smallholders. That is very important and it is a high-quality production component. And, if we look for example, the oil farm goes back to carbon, for example, because it is a neutral carbon for tier 1. It is a biogenic carbon. So, the carbon contribution is from the nitrogen that produces greenhouse gas. So, sustainability, oil palm, for smallholder is also a dosage control. With the current crisis, the automation is decreasing. So, from the environment, it is decreasing. But, the production is very low. But, from Tata Kelola, capacity building is very important. So, I think, we have to focus on capacity building because the adoption of technology is still small. In this kind of crisis, I think we need innovation. So, it is not difficult. From the environmental side, from the income side. Thank you. And now, I would like to also ask Ms. Violace regarding the same issues. What are your views? As mentioned before, it needs capacity building. So, what are your views and what can you add to the issue? Yeah, I could add that we can agree that farmers, either it's palm oil or other commodities, will be the one who hit harder when there was a crisis. Yeah, either that climate crisis, food crisis, or even the energy crisis. And I agree that they have to invest more to the smaller capacity building. But as Padarta also said that at the end, it also adds up to the cost. Like during the crisis, farmers see that they cannot sell their FFB in the high price. And then they won't invest in their farm. They're just going to let the farm as it is. Because what's the point is that they need more fertilizer if they cannot sell it at the price that they want, or at the price where they can get the profit. Because it needs extra time to do the good practices, for example, to add fertilizer, to do the pruning or to do the harvesting and all that stuff. And then the price is nothing, for example. Add on to the energy and then as Padarta said, not all of small holders are self-sustained. They still need buying food. And then if the income is not enough, yes, efficient, and also if they don't have their own farm for food, then they're the one who really hit harder. And then I agree that they need the best management, probably also a good business model that's not only where the risk is not only hooked by farmers, by small holders, but also along the supply chains, probably we can find a model to support when the crisis come, then it's not really make farmers smaller than the ones who are most vulnerable to the impact of the crisis. Yes, please do. Especially as you mentioned before, Ms. Sonia, that the people is part of the environment as well and people management is one of those difficult aspects. Please give your views. Thank you, Masara, and thank you for the panelists. I think they already give a very important insight into the need of the good governance towards sustainability. And I believe if we talk about the good governance, we should talk about actors because according to our findings, actually, the act of the actors is the only factors that can directly influence sustainability. So if we have a good concept, if we have a good strategy, but without act of the actors, we cannot achieve sustainability. We should also consider that palm oil sector is very complex sectors. It involves many kind of factors and not all actors have similar power, similar capacity to do their act towards sustainability. So I think it's very important what Fionn said. We need to empower the weak actor. We need to strengthen the weak actor and how the strong actor can use their power to make the power constellations is balanced and the good governance can be achieved. Thank you very much for your added views, Miss Sonia. Now, ladies and gentlemen, we will open the question and answer session. For those of you who are here offline, are there anyone who would like to ask our panelists? Can you raise your hands? Yes, we have two questions. We have three questions over here. And I would like to check with the committee first. Are there any questions on Slido? Are there any questions on Slido? All right. We will begin with the questions here. Please. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. My name is Ari Rompas from Greenpeace. I think there are two questions related to this issue, the first about biodiesel. Because it's about this is and also about energy. First of all, Indonesia will be a biodiesel program as a solution to cover energy and to be an alternative for energy fossil fuel. I think what we need to see is that from our analysis from B30 to B50 it will add about 14 million hectares from the current capacity. That means we want to actually ask panelists how biodiesel solution is going to solve this problem or it will add problems related to deforestation in Indonesia. And again, from LENUCE that is the highest of the deforestation process that is related to sewage. The second is about fuel. So now I'm going to talk about food estates. In some places, even in Papua that last month there was a flood there. In some areas, then the sewage is the commodity of food estates in Papua. This is about 3.2 million people who will become food estates. And again, it will increase the problem of the flood. Because the government through the U.S. law will ease the flood to become food estates. What are the problems actually from the academic side? To see the pre-prequisite food estates that have been from the past, from the three presidents that have always failed. But at this time, try to be a solution for the climate crisis with the same model. Again, it will promote the culture and management of the industry. I think that's it. Thank you. Thank you for your question. Next, please. Thank you. I am Ramada Fabian from Traction Energy Asia. I have a question for the chairman of KLHK. If the panelists can share their insight. So there is one thing. There are two energy sectors. For the energy sector, the first one is co-firing. The second one is biodiesel. We at least with the B30 in 2026 there will be a trade-off between reducing export or expansion. That's the first one. The choice between expansion or export between the government and the company was explained by RIO that expansion is one of the main contributors of the deforestation. Biodiesel, the single feedstock, that's the one. So it undermines the follow sector. That's one. The second is co-firing. Co-firing is the same. The plan will be filled with wood pellets. That's around 8 million if you estimate the PLN. That needs a lot of soil. The soil is one of the main contributors of the deforestation. There are not that many. Around 2 million is 29% or 30% of the deforestation. But maybe the other sector also undermines the follow sector. How do you think about the biodiesel the second generation feedstock is the same? Or the co-firing diversification or the one that wants to fill it? That's me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for the first question from Mr. Agus. Thank you, Mr. Agus. Do you need to place some of the land in one village to be used for resilience? I think now there are efforts to make village special planning. There are many projects. I just saw 7 villages that are implementing village special planning helped by one donor. I saw they managed to place it in the village special planning. First, then, the land. So, we started from village special planning and not all villages in Indonesia. I think it was a good idea through village special planning. And maybe we can get capacity building from the companies working together to help the village special planning. I think it's one of the solutions, Mr. Agus. Thank you. Now, I can't answer all the questions that are easy. Maybe we can help Mr. Darto. The question was when the B30 increased to B50, was this a blessing or a curse? So, first, maybe I was wrong to use the CPO for biodiesel. I think the first one was more about energy protection. From carbon footprint. Yes. So, maybe Mr. Agus can answer. If I see we use CPO for biodiesel more than energy protection and maybe economic protection. For carbon footprint. Because we have analyzed carbon footprint, fossil fuel and B30 are not too different. Maybe the analysis is still wrong but I see it like that. Now, if we care about the expansion because we, for example, the B50 there are other aspects that we discussed when we met with the media. Production of productivity of Small Holder is still very low from the target. If the company can be 25, above 25, 27, 28 Small Holder is about 14 below it. If we manage to do capacity building to build so that the production increases we can save 7 million hectares. I think that can increase the B30 to 50 if that is what it looks like. So, I think in that direction, if I don't see it too much in the direction for example, if we choose to increase the B30 to 50. Maybe that's all I can answer. Thank you. Next, what do you want to add? Yes, I want to add just from my dozen. First, the question from our Maspung whether it is possible or not, I think it is possible. Because in the villages, it is also responsible for the development of villages. There are certain points. Actually, the problem is in the field with the approach, for example, with the villages, and so on. But, there is a challenge. There is a political rule at the Khabupaten level. Because the name of the village victory is the defeat of the sectoral rules. Here, it is for farming. Here, it is for farming. Here, it is for forest conservation. But if, for example, it comes from the villages of the forest or the Minerba villages, that is a big challenge. I think the problem sectoral villages are considered too subordinate from other villages. Yes, that's right. Because other villages need to be understood. But if, for example, there is the same work between the community and the private sector and the local government, to make this massive in the Khabupaten level, I think it is a positive thing and needs to be promoted further. And it can be a best practice. But also other challenges like what we are facing is the pilot project that we are doing. Forest conservation through high carbon stock in Khabupaten, Sekadau, in Setawar village and also in Khabupaten, Sanggao village. The total forest that is protected is about 800 hectares. The question is, what is this forest? But it will be conserved by the people, especially by the farmers. The big question is how many years this forest will not be functioned. This needs to be incentive and benefit. The market needs to work in that direction. The market should not just talk. I want forest conservation, no deforestation product, but prove it. It will benefit the village. But it can be incentive and benefit is not directly to the farmers. But it has to be to the village government as another source of income from the village. Because if we are talking about forest conservation on village level, not only the farmers but also non-farmers who have the responsibility to protect each other. That is the approach of law enforcement, etc. That is my answer, then also related to for example, this is a dilemma. If we want to talk about forest conservation, this will be a big scandal in the problem of forest conservation. If we want to talk about forest conservation, this is the case of forest conservation. This is just a coincidence. Why? Because if we are talking about the country, with only the B30, there is a demand of the country, 40 trillion. Really? Yes, only the Ministry of Finance who knows that. Then also if we are talking about forest conservation, how many forest conservation that is helped by the biodiesel program or will forest conservation be a victim? The main conclusion is forest conservation is a victim. This is a victim. This is the first proof. Two months ago, forest conservation again, the government stopped the export of forest. Before Jokowi, before Pilpres, the price of Angloch in 2018 was stopped. Because the price was below Rp 1,000 in 2018. Then it was stopped gradually. The electricity in Kibunsavi again. Now it is like that. It was stopped. The export of forest was zeroed. The price of forest has started. It has started to rise. With two examples of cases, the export of forest caused economic collapse and contributed to the growth of the forest in Petanisawit. If we count every U.S. dollar per ton in Petanisawit is Rp 140 per kilogram. For example, in the last number of U.S. dollars per ton. Even though it is not the forest that is planted, but the big trees. But the name of the forest is the forest because the forest has become a source for the development of the forest. If there is no forest, there is no forest. So, the problem is the forest is above. The global price will be cut off. And the reference for the price of the forest is using the price of the forest. The price of the forest is cut off and the price of the forest is below. That is the first one. Then the second one about the biodiesel related to the risk of the economy. The second one is the principle. If this is said for example to help the forest, which cooperation is the most helpful. Even if there is no solar test, it is from the people who work in the SDM. There is no such thing. Because all suppliers are all companies. Where is the farming? We now ask for the farming of the forest that the majority has to work with this industry in the form of construction and then the B30 program. Because we in this field have never been proud of the solar that we have. At the most, we say we only have them. That is the second point. The other point is it is important to increase productivity. More and more, this approach will impact the forest in the future. For example if we increase the productivity that our CPO will increase about 80 million tons. 1 hectare of the calculation is to produce 5 tons of CPO. 1 hectare. What is 16.3 million tons? That means 80 million tons. Where is the market? The easy answer is like what Greenpeace said is the B50. Because replanting will be continued in Genjot. But is that the easiest answer? I don't think so. Because the higher the B30 becomes the B40 or B50 or B100 this will increase the market price. The higher the subsidy. This is the risk that exists. In my opinion, the choice to expand is not. But the productivity will also reduce the problem. Not now. But in the future. I think this is too much. I want to answer all of them. But I... Next. Thank you. I think I just highlighted an important point. I think the landscape approach is very good. Because we need to develop a good economic and social function in a slow pace. But as we talked about the slow pace management of people. The high social capital not only from the community but also from the authorities who might never have the ability to determine how we manage the slow pace. That might be the case for Mr. Pungki. And the one that was related to biodiesel, food estates and now there is a volume. I think the point is the good direction. I mean the good direction. But as the previous panelist said what we want to do together is to integrate the good direction so that it doesn't overlap. We have a research that has been published by Prof. Harry. We try to simulate some policies at a national level. How to reconcile the conservation of the environment with the development of the sewage sector. And from the simulation we show that reconciliation is possible. But again to the actors who are interested whether they want to sit together or reconcile. But that's the area. How do we integrate each other? Please, Ms. Fionn, can you give an answer? The answer can be added by the previous panelist. But when there was a question whether our effort to mitigate the other sector the volume itself as Mr. Sonia said it is important to collaborate and sit together to discuss what we want to achieve in the future so that the sector doesn't mind it. I see the government have directed when they set goals for the industry not only for the sector but also for the communication between the sector so that the sector doesn't mind the other sector. So there are many to achieve sustainability that we see the shift of paradigm the approach maybe more than 10 years to achieve sustainable production many things have been learned and improved the approach that relies on certification but when there is no market development in certification there is a change of approach to landscape where the government is involved as we do we can't do business as usual so it is important to sit together as a key player between multi-stakeholder to discuss our common goals. At the moment we have a production protection and inclusion or PPI approach using landscape system when we set what goals we want to achieve in landscape it is not only industry or growers but also the government because when we want to achieve sustainability it is not only done by industry but also needs a strong support from the government so maybe I can say that we need a change that is not only a change but also systemic and business practice also improve the governance sector and also improve the field level sustainability in practice. We need a holistic change from all sides. Thank you Mrs. Fiotas Jawa Baniyan and thank you for your questions. I would like to check again if there are any questions from the virtual participants from Slido who have come in. Are there any questions on Slido to the committee? Let me see if there are please do present them on to the screen. Once again I would like to ask for the committee are there any questions on Slido? It seems that we have one more question since the time is very tight I think this is the last question. Land is limited for palm oil expansion what are the ideas to ensure the second and third generation of palm oil palm oil small hooters? The market is divided into small production, small production and sold to more rich farmers. Maybe this is the answer from the panelists maybe there is a difference maybe from from the professor can you explain how the income from this academic side? I think it is similar to in my statement at the beginning that our land is limited to 0.090 very small. Then how in the future we at the university are the first that we work on how to increase the productivity of small hooters especially for small hooters because we can encourage expansion for example if we can increase although there are other problems we can encourage 6 to 5 million with the increase in productivity. Second, back to the integrative approach for the land equivalent ratio if we can integrate with cattle although there is also a challenge there. But I think innovative things like that can be done because according to the land can only grow below 700 meters. It is not possible to go to the mountain because it only 700 meters so it is limited. If I see from there there are additional questions from the panelists are enough just a little because we have one more but very short keep it compact and short I am also interested in farming We learn in Cipanas social forest in social forest we need what plants we can plant there in the forest we plant coffee coffee and this is jamu or Javanese it is planted there so that it can be planted if in the south there are three things interclof can we plant there for example jamu it has economic value very good because it has minimal light so it can be done if it can be not only in the field but also in the field but how can it be done with the jamu it can use the leaves it can use the plants it needs it can do and we do it in Cipanas maybe it can be a hard work to increase the economy thank you very much thank you for getting it the last question we have big round applause that was the last question and also comment that we can propose for this third session once again please give a round applause to the speakers thank you first of all to Miss Beatriz Fernandez from UNEP to Professor Suria Tarigan from IPB University and also Miss Sonia Diakusumadewi from C4Icraft Miss Biolasie Amalia Putri from Idea Indonesia and also Mr Mansuetus Darto from SPKS thank you very much panelists and speakers for your wonderful media