 This is American Issues Take Two, and I'm Jay Fidel of Think Tech. I'm joined by my co-host, Tim Apichella, and our regular contributor, Cynthia Stinclair. Welcome to the show, you guys. Good morning. Good morning. I'm talking about Ken Burns' movie, The United States and the Holocaust. And, you know, I stumbled into it. I didn't realize it, exactly how powerful it was and what it was about. And I thought, oh, another movie about the Holocaust. I've seen that footage. But then, just a few minutes in, I realized it's on TBS, and it's on TBS.org also. I realized that this footage you haven't seen before, this is the most extraordinary average of the Holocaust. The Holocaust in the 30s and the 40s and even after the war. Very interesting movie he made. It was a brilliant movie, but it wasn't really an examination of the Holocaust. It was an examination of the United States' reaction and support of the Holocaust. And that was the part that really scares you. Why does it scare you? A, because you didn't know about this, or if you did, you didn't have a full understanding. And B, this is what's been happening in our country. The country is turning to the right. It's turning to bigotry in many ways. And our former president was leading the charge on bigotry as well as insurrection and sedition. So we are in crisis now, and we can make parallels to what happened in Nazi Germany in the 30s. The movie makes it clear. Okay, so let's discuss why it makes it clear and to the extent to which it makes it clear. Tim Appichel, were you aware of the connection? Were you aware of the anti-antisemitism and bigotry in this country in the 30s and 40s? Did this movie teach you anything about a parallel between what's going on here, what is going on here, and what happened in Germany in the 30s? Yeah, Jay, I knew quite a bit. I'm a big fan of history and I knew quite a bit, but not nearly as much as I learned out of this Ken Burns series. And what I learned, I knew that there were fascist groups actually Nazi groups on the East Coast in the 1930s and 40s. And there was a sense of isolation from the United States that they didn't want to get involved in another war. So I knew all that. I didn't know to the extent on how it manifested itself in our government, this anti-immigration and really, I won't say hatred, but this movement specifically against the Jews from immigrating from Germany into the United States. And what was the chief agency for blocking that was the State Department. And there was a great show on last night on PBS about the State Department and how it refused to let black people work in the State Department. And I went into great detail about the background of everyone who worked in the State Department were the graduates from Yale or Harvard and it was a white dominated male society. And with that came, I think anti-immigration sentiments and there was the Johnson-Reed Act that basically put quota system on immigration and that system lasted well into the 1950s. And so when people realized what Harry Hitler was up to and the march to fascism, one or two waves of Jews got out of Germany and were successful to immigrate into the United States. But what happened is the quota system really kicked in and now that immigration was turned off at the spicket to a trickle. And therefore people couldn't get their families out or they couldn't get out at all. And there was a real anti-Semitic feeling in this country that we didn't wanna bring Europe's war onto the front doorstep of the United States. So this hard and fast anti-immigration feeling was really the basis of our racism and avoidance to address what was happening in Europe. And that's why that sense of isolation was very hard to break. So yeah, I learned a lot. Yeah. And Cynthia, to the extent you looked at it, did you find parallels between what happened in Germany under Hitler's evolution and what was happening in the US in the 30s and the 40s? Well, I found all kinds of parallels. And it also, I was shocked. I had no idea. Here I thought I was this, you know, protesting hippie that stood up for the underdog. I had no clue that the very last one that happened was 1981 is commonly listed as the year in which Oregon performed the last legal forced sterilization in US history. That's what the eugenics program was. And that was what started in America. The Nazis in 1936, the Nazi propaganda was defending their forced sterilization policies by citing what was happening in the US. So it's not like we just supported it. We supported it in different ways by example, even. And I mean, I was just shocked. The very first legal one, the Michigan State legislature became the very first in the country to pass a forced sterilization law. And they sort of couched it in these very, unspecific terms of the feeble minded, trying to, you know, breed out all of the feeble minded people. In reality, it was used for people of color, more than anything. And I can't help but think about what happened to all the American Indians too. Point was rampantly used for those guys. They crossed the board sterilized people well into the 80s. And so this isn't just something that stopped in the 30s. Granted, after the Holocaust, and we found out about the horrors that were happening at the hands of Hitler and his, you know, and the Nazis, you know, Americans started to finally wake up and say, wait a minute, maybe this isn't so great. It's being used the wrong way. But so often Americans, we like to wear this badge of worthy accepting, you know, non-racist country where all, you know, give us your tired, your poor. And in reality, from day one, we were starting to try to get rid of any other minority from our gene pool or whatever. And that just horrifies me. So often I feel like I'm a little embarrassed to be white, you know, because of the atrocities that have been done in the name of, we're the best race. And I think, wow. And it's still going on today. And like you were saying with the setup here about how do I find any parallels to the US back then and Germany, of course, but I find parallels between now and then. I see this sort of slide back in history kind of thing where we're more amenable to doing this sort of thing again, because after all, you know, there's no room for these crummy people that are coming into the country. We want the ones, the white ones that are from, you know, Northern Europe and things like that. We don't want any of these other, you know, asylum seekers and that just really gets me. Cause I think, who do we think we are that we're so perfect as white people, you know? Where did we get this idea that we're so perfect and everybody else isn't? And I think by our behavior, we are the least perfect of anybody. You know, Tim, there were indications early on in the Trump world, in his term of office, we can talk about after his term of office in a minute. For example, Charlottesville, where it seemed to pop out and where his bigotry was revealed. But also in his attempt to make, to corrupt the federal government, corrupt the agencies and the officials. And I'm thinking of the Comey rule, the movie. I'm thinking of that exquisite moment where he attempted to, you know, develop this kind of to the death loyalty with James Comey. There are markers in what we know about Trump's four years. We don't know everything, by the way. I think we have to agree on that. But you and I have been discussing the parallel between Trump's administration, his wishes, his moves, so many things and so many books and articles and stories on national cable TV. That it's, you know, it's inescapable, don't you think, that Trump follows a path that is frighteningly similar to what Hitler did. Did this movie bring that up for you? And can you talk about some of the markers? Sure, it does bring it up. And also it's a path to Vladimir Putin. It is current, modern day Russia. Putin is by definition an autocrat fascist. In 2000, he got the stage as a democratic, trying to move the Soviet Union to a democratic path, but he's reverted back to the days of Stalin. And what are the telltale markers of that? Well, with fascism or nationalism, it's the telltale marker of restrictive immigration, blaming the people that were coming in the country because of race or religion. They're the source of your problem. And that's a telltale mark of fascism slash propaganda. Find the scapegoat, identify the scapegoat. Two, tap into the grievances of your population, of your citizenship. Tell them that their grievance is well-warranted and founded because of immigration. And these people are taking their jobs away. They're making, they're taking away the American culture, even though our country is a melting pot of variety of cultures. So Donald Trump did that with banning Muslim countries from immigration into the country. He identified them as the scapegoats. He identified the Mexicans and the caravans of people from Central and South America as, you know, trying to invade the country and take away their jobs and, oh, there's gonna be crime. And so lock up your children and your wives because there's gonna be crime in the suburbs. Remember that? And so this is the parallelism, not only from Nazi Germany to the United States back in the 30s, but also in any fascist regime. And when Joe Biden called the MAGA GOP semi-fascist, I think he meant it because he acknowledged and recognizes these patterns and parallelisms. And look no further than what's happening in Germany today is complete control of the media, conscription without consent. He just makes up the rules and they go for it. And that's what Donald Trump did. He, you were correct to say, he hollowed out federal agencies and supplanted those that were dedicated to the mission of their agencies with willful, loyal lackeys. And that's what a dictator needs. He needs his loyalist, his lackeys not to ever, ever protest and only further his gains and mission. And that is the takeover of democracy. Donald Trump is a fascist. You know, one of the most significant historical events during the 30s, I think it was 1933, was the burning of the Reichstag, where I think we have to agree at this point in time that it was Hitler who arranged the burning of the Reichstag and it was an important step along the way for him to take power and to implement his plan. To be an absolute dictator of Germany. And a lot of people went along with it. They did go along with it. It's not like they didn't know he was an absolute dictator of Germany. It's not like they didn't know the steps he was taking in order to achieve that. But it strikes me, Cynthia, that the burning of the Reichstag was so symbolic, so violent and reminiscent of January 6th. It goes on the same continuum. Do you feel there's a parallel there? Absolutely do. The whole entire time I was watching and I didn't quite get all the way through the last, the third one that I watched the first two. And I was just sort of sickened the whole time there was this feeling of, oh, God, what's happening now? So yes, I saw all sorts of parallels. And how do we stop it? That's my big question. What do we do about this now? What happened in Germany and for that matter, Italy, is they treated Hitler and for that matter, Miss Fellini as a clown. That he wasn't serious that this would go away and ultimately politics would force the two of them out of office. And by the time they realized just how deadly serious this was and how it would ultimately mean life and death for many, many, many people, it was too late. And that's something I want to ask Tim about. Do you think we're getting to a point where it's too late? No, I don't think it's too late, but it's getting there. We're on the slow, slow march to a fascist nation. And I know that's a remarkable statement, particularly for people that grew up with the virtues of democracy, that how could we go down to this road? But what we've learned in the last five to six years is that our democracy is extremely fragile. So when you see the slow takeover of media, and I'll call out Fox, Fox is nothing more than Trump news amplified. And there's a reason for that because it's getting ratings. People love to watch anything about Trump, and that's why they tune in. And that's why the ratings are so high. And Fox and the Murdochs know that. So there's the infiltration of media. These, again, the infiltration of government agencies with loyalists. There's the infiltration of scapegoating. And that's scapegoating is immigrants. So we've seen all sorts of signs on those slow march to that. At some point, there's a tipping point, and I don't know where that is. Is it too late? How about November? How about November of 2022? You know, you say slow march, but these things have a way of knitting together under the hood. And then, okay, well, and that's what happened with Hitler. And it's also what happened with Putin in his efforts in Chechnya. Here's a telltale sign that we are going to reach a milestone here. And that is we have many election deniers who have won the primaries. They have bought into the big lie. The big lie is that the Trump election was stolen from them, the presidential election. That's the big lie. They have all bought into it. They've all pounded it on their chest. They've said that's I'm a candidate and I support the big lie. They've won their primaries. Now the milestone test is will they win the general? And if they do, that should be a flare, a big bright red flare before the nation saying, hey, we just made a quantum leap towards fascism. They're going to stop free and fair elections in the future. That's not a slow change. That's a fast change right there. Okay, I'll buy that. I'll buy that 40 days away. Cynthia, I want to ask you about, about the process that came up in the, in the, in the, these episodes in the Kenburn, you know, of course, Hitler wanted to use anti-Semitism and various other, you know, bigotry initiatives against the people in Germany, who he felt that the Germans didn't like. And he wanted to use them, you know, as, as, as a way to gain power. And he did that very effectively. On the other hand, the death camps were secret. He didn't talk about it. And we only found out, you know, the horror of the death camps after the war, when in large part American troops liberated those, those camps and were horrified. So, you know, what, what you have is more than just using the bigotry of the country as a way to enhance his power. He was on a mission to eradicate the Jews. And indeed, you know, we forget that he was controlling a good part of Europe. And he was implementing that, you know, that attempt to eradicate Jews in all parts of Europe, where he occupied, for example, pistol-knock in 1938. It did not happen just in Berlin. It did not happen just in Germany. It happened in all of the areas, including the Sudetenland, you know, that, that, that Hitler was occupying. And, and those shops were broken, and the Jews were beat up on the streets and pistol-knocked all over Europe. He had a plan, and he had an organization that could, you know, develop and implement that plan. Now, part of the plan, of course, was to take rights away from the Jews. The ordinary middle-class Jewish families found they couldn't go to school anymore, that they would be ostracized in so many ways. They couldn't own businesses. The businesses were taken away. Their property was taken away. Their civil and human rights were taken away. Little by little, these regulations, you know, and he timed it so that he wouldn't have a big pushback from the German people. And little by little, he made these people into, into non-people. You know, by the time they got to the death camps, they really had nothing, okay? So at some point in time, according to the Ken Burns, you know, film, they realized they got to get out of Germany. And they went east to Russia. They, they went all over Europe to try to get out. They went to places that, that ultimately, Hitler found them in, you know, in France and the low countries, Belgium and the Netherlands and so forth. And what is, what is scary is that these are the very people who thought Hitler wasn't a joke. And two or three years later, he wasn't a joke. He had stripped them of their citizenship, of their property, of their civil rights. And that happened, you know, really in the, in the timing of history pretty quickly. Do you think, this is my question, do you think that people in this country realize what it means to have a successful coup? What it means to have the GOP running Congress and running the government in terms of the loss of their civil rights and the treatment of minority groups? Do you think people know the parallel in the way it worked in Germany and in various other places in Europe in the 30s and the 40s? Do they know they can, they can lose that middle class opportunity, the human rights, the quality of life they have had, or are they oblivious? I don't think they do realize. And the evidence of that is how many people are Holocaust deniers. People that say it didn't happen. And then because it's so watered down when it's taught in history class, younger kids don't even know about it. I'm shocked at how many kids don't know about it, especially when I was working as a children's minister in the South. The kids had never even heard of it. And these are high school kids. They'd never heard of it. And so that I think is evidence that no, people don't understand. And even adults who don't want to understand, they don't, they would rather not think about it and they use the excuse of, oh, oh, it's too ugly. I just can't handle it. I can't think of those things. Yet while they, you know, put their blinders on, it's happening again. You know, there's another movie called the Garden of the Finsie Contini in the Garden of the Finsie Contini. This is a remake of a 1950s black and white movie and it was made in the 80s. And it's, it's about a family, a Jewish family in a town called Ferrara, which is near Rome. And they lived a sweet life. They had a tennis court in a pool. Their friends came over. They drove classic cars. They were happy as they could be. And they were oblivious. And one day the Nazis came and rounded them up in their mansion and took them into, into the machine. And so it's that same thing. What, what are you doing? You know, my name is Finsie Contini. You can't touch me. Oh yes, we can. That was the end of them. They all died in the death camp. But I want to turn to something else to him. And that is the State Department. You mentioned it earlier. We had a serious problem with the State Department and the Burns film talks about how FDR was reluctant. Not only to declare war to Pearl Harbor and the declaration of war against the United States by both Germany and Italy a few months later to get Congress to go along with him on the declaration of war. It's not only that though. There were people in this country. You know, we remember from our history lessons, Father Coughlin, Coughlin, and we remember Charles Lindbergh, both of whom were Nazis and bigots and who were very influential on the newfound leverage of radio. But the State Department stuck with it the whole time and even after. You mentioned that immigration laws were not reformed to allow Jews to come in until sometime in the 50s, long after the war was over, and the State Department blocked giving visas. You know, the story of the ship St. Louis, the ship that couldn't find a place to dock and back and forth, and ultimately they wound up back in Europe again trying to escape the Nazis. You know, this is that part of the continuum in Germany where people could and would and had ways they thought to escape Germany. There came a time, as you will find, as people will find if they watch these episodes, that Hitler said, well, we have to develop a final solution here. We don't want to give many rights. We don't want to let them out. We want to dehumanize them in every way possible, but they're still alive. What we have to do is we have to make a machine to kill them, all of them. And he tried hard. And in fact, in Europe, two out of three Jews were killed, two-thirds of all the Jews in Europe were killed. The Holocaust was very nearly successful and the American position on it, according to Ken Burns, is we're not going to bomb the camps, to terminate the death, you know, the ovens and the like. We're going to put our focus on winning the war. Unfortunately, it took them longer than they thought to win the war. And while they were winning the war, the ovens were going full steam 24 by 7. It was very ironic. But the State Department was part of that and they apparently acted as a kind of barrier for FDR to protect the Jews and allow the Jews. Can you talk about that? Sure. You know, it was the head of the Department of Treasurer, who basically, he and his people, he found to help them was to try to find a bill that would give aid to the refugees. That passed, that passed. And it went over to the State Department and it was shelved for months and months. And those funds and assistance to help refugees get out of Germany and Poland and all of Eastern Europe, those efforts were blocked. And what does that say about, you know, a United States agency proactively working to keep refugees in a country where they were being exterminated? And we knew they were being exterminated. I know if Herr Hitler tried to cover up, but we knew it, it was in the papers. It might have been on page five, page six. In some cases it was page one and two. But people didn't believe the numbers. They thought it was hyperbolic. They thought it was Jewish nonprofit agencies just trying to gain sympathy and funds and money. And they didn't believe the numbers. They didn't believe that people were being executed without cause or reason. And so what do you say about an agency that works in tandem with a fascist government? It can happen. And I'm not going to say that's where we're at right now in our politics. Where I see it is at the beginning phase of trying to subvert a free and fair election in order to retain power for the dear one. Who's the dear one? Well, it's Donald Trump. You know, will they accept the election as results if their candidate doesn't win? Or they only accept the results if their candidate wins? This is the slow step to fascism. And we better wake up. It's happening. As you well said, the midterm elections is upon us. And if election deniers get and win the general election, you know, it's only going downhill from there. Yeah, Cynthia. So, you know, the midterm elections are upon us. And if the Republicans take both the House and the Senate, and then you have a Supreme Court that went off the charts already and isn't coming back anytime soon, and all the other problems in the executive branch I should add. It seems to me that Donald Trump is more powerful, even if he's not president. He's more powerful to deal with all these investigations and prosecutions if both houses of Congress are on his side. And worse yet, if he gets to be president in 2024, which he could, you know, pave a way to, if he had both houses of Congress and the Supreme Court working for him, where do we go then? Do you think that we will be able to retain our civil rights and our humanity? Forget 2024 for a moment, just 2022, 40 days away. How will that affect things? How will that affect this continuum? This, as Tim calls it, the march to the march to fascism. We're toast. Sorry. We're toast. There's no way. If we don't make some more headway, because there are certain things that have got to be codified and put into law so that we're protected from a very right wing partisan Supreme Court. And we need to remember when we, you know, we just sort of touched on Charlottesville for a second and how that's when it all started. I don't know if that's when it started. It's just that's when we got to see it. And, and what were they chanting? Not, we are great. They were chanting. Jews will not replace us. And that's how backwards and ignorant these people are. And how much they justify their anti-Semitism and their racism. And to me, it's just disgusting. And the fact that they are as prolific as they are right now, even with a democratically held Congress and White House, if they are still this powerful now, think about what would happen if they get in back in charge of Congress. That's it. We're toast. And I mean, I don't say that lightly because I really believe that we don't continue to maintain some hold on power so we can get some solid voting rights again. And all of that, we know that these people are willing to cheat to get what they want. And if they're willing to cheat to get what they want back then in 2020, they're willing to cheat to get what they want now. And that's what they're going to do. They're going to cheat so they can get what they want. And that is terrifying. And we are in a, we are in very dire straits. And it's even not sure if with a giant blue tsunami, you know, angry women and everything else, that we still can't overcome some of the bills that are in different state houses. So we're in for, it's not even a sure thing, even with a blue tsunami because of the cheating, the things that they've already put in place to be able to cheat again. So we're in trouble. You know, Tim, they say that, that the insurrection wasn't a clear attempt to have a coup. Because, you know, as far as Trump was concerned, he was ready to hang Mike Pence. He was ready to use everything as his disposal, organizing conspiratorial meetings and all this. If he, just footnote it, if he had been an ordinary citizen, any one of the three of us doing exactly the same acts, he would be in jail and subject to very long term imprisonment. And if it was treated as treason, you know, reason in this country is punishable by death. It's pretty serious what was going on. But somehow he escaped that and his, you know, his Fox News and a lot of legislators, you know, softened it somehow and came up with excuses for it. But some people say, Tim, that January 6th is not going to happen again in the same way. But going forward, we have an insurrection right now. As you said, it's a march, it's a slower march. It's not necessarily a violent march. It's a march that pretends to be legal in so many of the battleground states. And, and those guys are busy boys and girls planning it right now. And we don't know, because the media is not really telling us what they're doing to advance a nonviolent insurrection. But all of that considered, you know, where, where do you see the United States on the continuum here? If I'm a minority, should I be concerned? There are many minorities in this country. Many minorities who are the subject of bigotry. Should I be concerned? Should I be concerned about what Ken Burns portrayed in this movie and query, why now? Why this movie now? And what is he really getting at to tell us that in the 30s, 40s and to some extent to 50s, we were a bunch of bigots and we didn't let FDR, you know, protect the minorities in this country. We didn't let FDR save them, even when it was clear that we're going to death camps. Why did Ken Burns make this now? And what should we take away in our own thinking about trying to avoid a similar result here as well? Well, that's a lot packed into a question. I'll say this. Donald Trump and the mega GOP has successfully turned minorities against minorities. Yes. I see a huge Hispanic population turning to the GOP. Basically saying, you know, you guys came in and you got yours and, you know, you should really restrict on who else is coming into the country. And I also see that he's using the Democrats as socialists because a lot of these people who came from Cuba and South American from socialistic governments and societies, they don't want to go back to that life. So rather than pin it on, you know, liberal Democrats, he's pin it on socialist Democrats that want to make a United States into a socialized government. So it's, it's minorities training against minorities here in this case. So to answer your question, should minorities be concerned? Of course. But it's not the first time minorities or even everybody in this country has voted against their own self-interest because there was a charismatic leader. One I could think was Ronald Reagan and they voted against their own self-interest. So in my mind, people need to be informed of why they support somebody. What is it they, that individual has that really appeals to their self-interest, not just what they're told their self-interest is. Identify those things for your family and your community and figure it out. I, again, I think Donald Trump, if he comes back into the arena, will get great minority support. Yeah, you know what? I think you're right. Cynthia? Can I just add one thing in there? A little insight into the, there's a, I can't remember. She's ahead of one of the Hispanic coalitions and she's been doing this really great documentary series about this very thing. What's going on with Hispanics coming around? And one of the number one things that was repeated by just about everyone, and this is the way the GOP sort of appeals to these guys is most, it's really high percentage of Catholics. Catholicism is huge in the Hispanic communities. And so it's all about abortion. It's all about Robi Wade for them. It's more than anything else. It's about that. And then some of the lies that they've been told about how they're okay, but anybody else won't be. And if anybody else comes in, then it'll take away from them and that's in there too. But more than anything, the highest percentage of responses said it was the conservative values. And that is Robi Wade. That was their thing. And some people think it's kind of infectious. In other words, if you say that we have some serious issues in the country, let's see, Robi Wade is one and then we have gun control. We have voting rights. What did I miss? We have people who disagree on climate change, all that serious issue. But what the GOP does and what it's done with the Latino group is you find an entry point. One issue, okay? And then you infect the people who join the crowd with all the other issues. So before you know it, you have somebody who enters into the right wing of things on something like abortion. And all of a sudden, they're in exactly the same position as GOP is on all the other issues, even though they really don't care or shouldn't care. I think we should do another show on this topic because we're running out of time. I think it's a great topic. And I think you're spot on. Let's go to final statements Cynthia. What would you leave with our audience today? I have a quote from Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes from 1927. And he was the one who wrote the majority. It was an eight to one in Buck V. Bell that legalized the sterilization stuff. He's quoted as saying it is better for all the world if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their time. What was the Supreme Court judge saying that? Well, that's your Supreme Court, not mine. Tim, what would you leave with our audience? Very quick. Midterm elections coming up, November is coming up. I'm not going to say just go out and vote. I'm going to say go out and vote and vote for Democrat candidates. They're not election deniers. Yeah, go out and vote like your life dependent on it. You can quote me on that. Okay. Tim at Coachella, Cynthia Sinclair. Thank you so much. Aloha, you guys.