 Good morning to all My name is Ricardo Abila. I'm the director of the journal on economics and business of portafolio I am the I will be the moderator of this panel Regarding how to cope with corruption before Beginning I Would like to make a couple of announcements first of all that the panelists will have the possibility of Speaking in their Language of preference in English Portuguese Spanish there's interpreters for those three languages and likewise this session will be streamlined and broadcasted in streaming and We will hear your opinions and we will open up the floor for questions from the audience And I would like to refer to the possibility that you ask your questions You Via some digital media you have to remind me the address Marisol We're thought see age Slash ask that is the address I will be getting them here If that is the case you will have the possibility of asking your questions Physically here or but those persons who are watching us On TV or on their computers will have a possibility of Using this technological tool Would like to introduce a panelist and my speed on southern and this attorney general of Guatemala Juan Carlos Botero executive director of the world justice project in the United States Sergio Romani Who is the chief executive officer for South America region of Iwai based in Brazil? Elizabeth Ungar who is the executive director of Transparency for Colombia and who is also a member of the International Board of Transparency International in Bogota And Brian winter who is the editor-in-chief of America's quarterly? Based in the United States particularly in New York There is no doubt when we look at the surveys or the news that the issue of corruption is Covered every day. I was telling the panelists that a couple minutes ago I got through my cell phone the news from the New York Times saying that the entire Russian Athlete team has been suspended from participating in the Olympics Because of a scandal in the indiscriminate use of doping So the that is the scandal that touches sports right now And it's an example of how corruption is present in our day-to-day life When we look at the surveys especially in the specific case of Latin America the Latino Barometer this issue of corruption is part of the concerns of the citizens and Sometimes it is the first source And it is an issue that has its consequences and in the concrete case of Latin America It is true that the attitude of the population has been evolving to my left I have a concrete example, which is a case of Guatemala from whom we will hear But we come but if we look at recent news We will see it what happened in Brazil not long ago that implied the suspension of President Dilma Rousseff In a case that you all know well Without further ado, I will first of all ask Brian winter To give us his general thoughts on the region He has had a chance to work in several countries, and I think that he can give us an overall vision That is very interesting Brian. You have three minutes In Latin America as in other parts of the world for centuries But I think we'd all agree that something different is happening right now You see the most dramatic examples of this in Brazil where I live for the last five years And also perhaps in Guatemala a story that many people In this room know quite well including of course a 30 general Aldana But it's happening everywhere. You see it playing out in Chile You see it playing out in Colombia and Mexico Of course, there's wide diversity across the region in terms of the force with which corruptions being addressed But something has clearly changed So I'd like to talk very briefly about what has changed and why this why I think This secular change in terms of the tolerance of corruption and the exposure and punishment of it Is taking place To do that we have to go back a little bit Basically, if you look at the region as a whole you saw a series of positive reforms to the economies During the 1990s and then you saw especially in the South American sphere the positive effects from the commodities boom of the 2000s the net result of this was about 50 million people who came out of poverty region-wide and into the middle class and for these people hand-to-mouth issues like Unemployment basically became less important and they became more interested and the kind of their countries as a whole became more interested in the quality of government in rule of law in Benefits to the tax dollars that in many cases they were starting to pay For the first time, so I think that that's one of the factors the other one is Democracy and the way that democracies across the region have consolidated over the last 30 years how interesting for example that Brazil began its transition back to democracy in 1985, which was one year before Guatemala went down the same road and during that time you've seen independent judicial institutions in particular Take route that are not compatible basically with corruption in the case of Brazil the constitution their democratic constitution of 1988 established the public ministry as Basically an independent judicial body the US equivalent of the district attorney of the Attorney General. I'm sorry and They were given the opportunity and the independence to begin rooting out some of these old corrupt systems And it's taken a while for their For their efforts to bring fruit But my goodness, I think we'd all agree that they've they've dug up quite a case right now And then finally as far as the factors go I think you can't underestimate the importance of social media Whereas many of these cases in the past would have been buried Either by traditional media or not really Exposed to the degree they were The electorates people in general are so intolerant of Corruption and have really decided corruption is enemy number one even in a place like Brazil where amid the worst recession in 80 years if You look at polls and you ask people what the number one issue is they say it's corruption So there's huge hunger for a resolution of this as well We can move on I suppose later to Discussion of where all this is headed. I would just say that you know I personally see this as a very positive process as much disruption as it produces in the short term I was just in Mexico and I don't want to pick on Mexico But I'm gonna mention this case because I was just there I had so many people come up to me, you know knowing that I'm mainly a brazil follower and they said gosh we We cannot wait to have a lavajato in Mexico and I sort of said, you know what that implies, right? And they said yeah, you know what like we know what it implies We know it's disruptive, but we have to get those elements out of our politics and so I I think that's where it's headed But as I always say success is likely but not guaranteed because there are very powerful forces in Brazil elsewhere in the region They're pushing back against these changes. And so I think it remains to be seen who how how lasting and how significant the change will be Gracias man Carlos Gracias Thank you when we think about corruption comparing the the region the organization where I work Me if we measure the issue of corruption in a hundred and eighty in twenty countries during the past eight Years we think that corruption is only one animal. It's only just one thing But but no it's many it's corruption in the top ranks favoritism Citizenship that's very different from corruption at the level of the police officer, etc so to give you an idea about the location of the the region in terms of figures the perception of corruption in Latin America is generalized but When you look at the perspective of the individual the perception of corruption Versus the direct experience of having been a victim of having involved been involved directly in an act of Corruption and the figures are totally different for example Corruption by police officers the perception is that 50% of the citizens in the region believe that the police Incurs in corrupt practices But when you ask did you have a direct experience with this then the figure goes on to 27% if we put this in contact with other regions of the world that same figure In Eastern Europe and Central Asia is 43% and in Sub-Saharan Africa 68% Obviously in Europe it's 9% So what we see this is that Latin America does have in general high levels of corruption But they're lower than in other parts of the world particularly East Europe Sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia Where the daily levels of corruption are higher? It's paying a bribe or a plan of our bribe Basically to take the children to to to be able to get the children admitted that the hospital or things like that But if we look at the structural problem of corruption in Latin America Focusing without a special reason if we focus on Mexico when Mexico we have done a deeper study And we found that at the level of the police there are two practices which are particularly concerning one is corruption to be able to be promoted within the ladder of the police The rank ladder and that generates crimes, etc. And the second one which is highly concerning is the favors gender-related favors corruption Related to sexual type of favors to obtain Promotions in an organization. This is Very typical of the police and it shows a very in-depth an in-depth problem That we can discuss later on So it's glad to be here. I'm gonna give you a different perspective on the fraud In a Brazilian talk about fraud and corruption is something is not unique. I mean, that's our daily news And if you open newspaper and watch TV every day, we are discussing that drinking a beer with a friend Discussing around corruption is pervasive all over the country But unfortunately we are in the in the spot of the world in the bad situation right now But I'm a do I'm a believer that you're gonna you're gonna emerge a stronger and more ethical country As I said, we call it after this lavajata thing Something that I have to go through to have a better country I do expect and I hope that's we're gonna ripple through the the whole region the whole Latin America as a as in a good example But I'm gonna give you this perspective of Another company that has been working with for more than 30 years and before I take this role as a CEO of South America region. I was a what we called assurance management partner with comprises audit plus An area of fraud and investigation services Four to five years ago. We we were like 30 professionals working basically in Brazil Some some money in Chile and Argentina, but basically focus on on in Brazil And then at that time what we was doing is that basically answered the phone When a client had an issue with fraud and go there trying to help them to identify How it happened who did it and how much and try to help them to build the forensic accountants to provide to the SEC and the OJ Basically international multinational clients, Brazil didn't have a legislation under a specific legalism of fraud Four to five years later. We are four hundred professional close to four hundred professional in South America Peru, Colombia, Brazil, Argentina and Chile And the the company has moved from the reactive approach to our most preventive approach So we are basically right now doing you're doing investigation like in Petrobras, for example We are doing this helping this lava job with the some some lawyers We are there was more than 200 people investigating or helping to investigate Which is an amazing thing and it's it's really if you go through the the newspaper It's it's unbelievable what happened in a company like Petrobras The deterioration of Petrobras is it's we cannot believe what happened there But we are also Are a very busy helping clients now to implement processes trying to minimize the risk of fraud And not the risk of the the current risk is but mainly or also the emerging risk of fraud with Fibre secured. This is something that's going to be new because fraud is being sophisticated Every time and every year more more and more when you think about the fourth revolution Digital is gonna is gonna bring some additional risk for for companies and to mitigate those So we are very busy helping companies to implement processes like whistleblowers. That is something new We are helping companies to Staffing there because there's a lack of Specialization here in South America mainly we are bringing professionals from the West to train our people because we We don't used to have the what we call CCO chief compliance officer. This is something new or GRC Governance risking compliance. So companies are really implement those and I'm a very optimistic that I'm a believer I'm the optimist that I think companies are now a reacting to the pressure that business not business, but Societies doing and government when you think about the end corruption summit that are happening along on April It's clear that a huge commitments to government all over the world to try and to combat corruption So I guess not I want to pick in Brazil, but as a Brazilian What I what I've seen there it gives me gives me the sensation that's gonna emerge to different in this region in the coming years It's something's gonna change Why don't you tell us something about the cases well as background I wanted to tell you that Guatemala suffered an internal or domestic or in conflict between 1962 and 1996 According to the Commission for Historical Truth Approximately 200 people died Approximately 1 million displaced and Refugees 45,000 disappeared persons Missing persons 80% are Mayan origin Guatemala is mathematical multicultural and plurilingual and it was the Native peoples the ones who suffered the most the consequences of war in 1996 We signed the peace accord firm and durable We Complied with the signing part, but we have not really found a road for that piece and it has been everything but long-lasting Within that context we have the emergence of the Syaks the illegal security Groups Which have led the government of Guatemala to request in the UN the creation of a commission in this case It's the International Commission against impunity and Guatemala is he see and it was initially conceived as An agency that was going to lead the investigations, but with those functions it would be in constitutional setting constitutional court And so we have decided that it would be there to support the effort of the public ministry in Guatemala so in 2015 we took to the courts of the country the case that is called as la línea the line which involved the vice president and the former the president and the former vice president of Guatemala and That was our biggest case yet this month for example We have taken to court Another case was just a co-optation of the Guatemalan state which reflects how the patriot party political party was created structurally criminally to Take power To take office to come into power and in the Guatemalan state They performed a series of illegal activities that show How rampant the corruption is in Guatemala the positive side is that we are taking to court those persons who according to objective and transparent Investigations are responsible for that corruption So the challenge for Guatemala is now to take advantage of that historic moment To achieve an alliance between the public sector and the private sector and the civil society To reach that piece which we have been having pending for the past 20 years Thank you, Mrs. Prosecutor. Now. Let's listen to Elizabeth anger Well, I want to begin by what the prosecutor has just said in the sense that the process That is making its way in Colombia of signing the peace and the post-conflict era One of the main obstacles that can emerge along the way is precisely Corruption because peace building is all about building trust of recovering the presence and the trust of the citizens in this In its state in its government It's but corruption is a question also of human rights of poverty of Citizen security and those are things that are at the heart of the peace building effort in a country like Colombia and the risk of corruption should be tackled since now in other words carrying and struggling against corruption in the post Accord era is something that we cannot postpone and We are already implementing programs and executing resources and we believe that The necessary measures to armor those resources against corruption are not being taken It is necessary to identify and we have We have been identifying those corruption risks that are going to continue risks that are Already exist and they are not going to disappear because we signed an acorn the worsening of situations that are already present and Possibly the appearance of new corruption events Stemming from new actors for Other actors that come to fill certain spaces in the country Issues like for example things that we have to pay attention special attention Politics the financing of campaigns the way of Accessing power we know that a point two of the Havana Accord stock talks about the social and political participation We believe that it is absolutely key to open up space for new actors including the park actors who are signing the accords to Participate in politics. Yes, but we have to know what kind of resources they are going to use to fund their Campaigns and something that is very important What are the practices that are going to be used by the various actors new social movements of gorilla itself? And the traditional actors in the field of politics to access power and to exercise it Now resource handling We are next to seeing thousands of millions of dollars That are flowing in from not only the resources from the national budget but also Local and regional budgets, but also international cooperation resources and resources from the private sector to there's already some commitments on part of the Corporate sector of Columbia to invest in productive projects for peace building so we must all make sure that all these resources land where they should and by partisanship and the issue that the prosecutor was mentioning We must shield these accords to a maximum and we have been asked for some concrete proposals first of all to determine the Institutional administrative Arrangements to implement an anti-corruption strategy for this purpose from now Because we cannot rush this In that second place to design a mythic corruption mitigation plan in the post-conflict era Aligned with this strategy We have to do this now and we have to have it clear where the Main corruption risks exist What are the mechanisms that are going to be effective in mitigating these risks and attacking the problem? We have to design a training program and Citizens look out systems so that they can follow up on the Havana agreements and commitments and Establish a system for proactively and permanently disseminating these results and being accountable to the citizens About the resources and the programs that are going to be implemented during the framework of the post-agreement and we must work on a Greater coordination Interagency coordination of those agencies in charge of investigating and preventing and penalizing corruption events this will be a fantastic way to create a virtual virtual circle of Cooperation between the private sector of the government and the citizens in Brazil and Guatemala It has been shown that a society that mobilizes and is demanding is a good way out in a good solution Thank you very much. I want to remind our audience that they can send me their doubts or questions if they Use the link WEF Dot What but that she just mentioned it again, I would like to ask Ryan There's some people who have a certain level of cynicism regarding what is happening in Latin America They say well, this is not the first time this happens. Obviously the scandal comes up you do a sort of cleaning and Actually, the old habits continue to be there In the concrete case of Brazil, there's all the arguments that beyond the exit of the Workers' Party from the government all the workers are part of a very similar structure What do you have to say about that? Well, especially you're asking the cells right now and and maybe in Guatemala to right was was just this was this just an Exception or is it something that will continue and that will result in some kind of systemic change? I think, you know, I take inspiration from basically two things one the dramatic events that have already happened And I you know in the case of Guatemala as the Attorney General pointed out this is a country that in many ways is quite fragile and what they did in 2015 with you know essentially convincing or inducing a sitting president who was quite popular to step aside Have his immunity stripped by Congress with massive support from popular demonstrations on the street without a drop of blood being shed That's remarkable and I think it speaks amazingly well of the Guatemalan people and also the Guatemalan institutions Such as the Attorney General's office and the CC which were able to gather the concrete proof that was needed to cause that change To happen So, you know you look and of course similar story in Brazil with the Lava Jato investigation The other thing and this is just from somebody who travels around Latin America and who has spent ten years of my life living in various countries. I've lived in Argentina. I've lived in Brazil I've lived in Mexico you travel around the region right now and like no other topic corruption makes people Sit up straighter Right. I mean no matter where you go. This is very front of mind for people and I just think and especially among younger people and You see it in polls. You see it in concrete actions. I don't think it's gonna go away I I just think that because of the factors that I mentioned earlier I think that the corruption to the degree that you saw in Brazil for example is Incompatible with the age of the phone tap the flash drive and the ballot box I just I don't see how it continues and part of what we're seeing right now in Brazil is the clash between You know remnants of the old system that have stuck around even though Dilma Rousseff Was suspended from power now clashing against this still continuing Wave of evidence that is coming from plea bargain testimony and from phone taps This is a prosecutor would you like to tell us or something about What to do to prevent these things to repeat themselves well That's a great challenge for the Guatemala government for the president We just took office in January of this year and his cabinet That is the great challenge not allowing these criminal structures to Strengthen again or to regain strength And because we were able to put in prison some people and We don't want others to continue committing the same crimes We know that it's worrisome in the case of La Lina for example We to we imprisoned 30 or 40 people and six months later We did a search We executed a search warrant at the legal head of the Superintendency and we found more than a million kids are missing cash and documents he had Gone through the process against the president of the Republic against the vice president against the head of the superintendent and so the Tax office and he continued with it bad practice of corruption And we found in his home a sample or an evidence of that corruption I was surprised because one things that given the examples that are be That are that we are seeing people who wish to correct their attitude, but that's not what it is So in Guatemala, we have to prevent and we have to continue investigating So that we can take to prison those people who are responsible Juan Carlos one of the questions that people ask is whether there is more corruption now than before and You find that very often the people normally ask that But the corruption perception index shows a trend and Increasing trend, but if we cross it with the figure that you just mentioned I Remember again quoting the Latino parameter where the perception of corruption and the verification of an act of corruption There's a big difference. So what do you say when you're asked that question? There are actually two things the first is the effect of combating corruption and the Harder the war and corruption The greater the results that is seen in literature. Why because when people are inditing the head of state when they see that Dozens of parliamentarians are put behind bars when they see that they think everything is corrupt But the reality is quite the opposite If we look at what happens when those events occur What happens is that you have the institutional strength required for that to actually happen because in those countries of the very high levels of Corruption that actually never happens in those countries where there is no freedom of press Which is not the case for Latin America Even though there are countries where there is a lot of concern over freedom of the press Corruption is simply hidden So the perception of corruption may be low because you know people know There's corruption, but you don't have these public scandals that heighten the perception of corruption And that's very very clear. That's the first thing that happens second Is there greater corruption today than before? I would say the opposite is true I think that what we are seeing thanks to this social transformation Taking place in the last 15 years in general the last five in particular is that the 15 years ago A person I mean people in general had very little access to information Wiles today thanks to social media to smartphones. Everybody is carrying, you know, one or two computers in their pockets of access to information has Become so generalized that that the social pressure In favor of those changes becomes increasingly important and when that is not taking into account that then we see the Emergence of phenomena such as the revolution in Arab countries The Arab Spring for example, I mean, you know many of the causes behind all these revolutions was this generalized perception of the people of corruption and Be this corruption high spectrum and it Continues to exist in Latin America in a prevalent manner and Generalized corruption inside the police and lower ranking civil servants and Companies participating in corrupt practices is something that is permanent. Well, I don't think it's increased What there is today is greater awareness around the problem in the region. Yes Elizabeth, but I would say that that greater perception of corruption the legitimate the litimizes democracy and That ironically makes the struggle against corruption More difficult to with an additional emphasis that has to do with what you mentioned, which is the regional aspect, you know in Colombia, there is this belief that decentralization brought a Dissertalization of corruption among many other things Yes, that is quite a paradox because to the extent that the media are Reporting more that heightens the perception of corruption though I do not believe that corruption has dropped. It's become far more sophisticated on many occasions It's far more difficult to identify corruption and the perpetrators of corrupt acts and what Research reveals I mean re-investigations Research done all over the world is that the effect of corruption in the most vulnerable Sectors of the population Latin America, Africa, Asia and every country Continues to be I mean there is no declining trend it rather it's has remained the same or we see an Increasing trend and I would say that the topic of the decentralized corruption is part of a very interesting debate which is whether centralization is a Cure for corruption my opinion is no I believe that what we need to do is Strengthen in the institutions in the territories in the regions at a local level in order to combat corruption But it's not centralizing anti-corruption policy and anti-corruption measures as The solution I mean there are certain and national or federal agencies, but that in no way means that a re-centralization will solve the corruption problem in the regions Sergio Santa Ines de la Cruz Will Roten Who is more to blame for any wrong doer he? who Pays for the crime or has a crime that pays I believe that the private sector You know you see Incursing corrupt practices Normally someone on the other side in the you know the public if someone in the public sector is on the take There's someone on the private sector who is at least promoting or accepting the Blackmail the trend of the world particularly in more advanced societies in respect of The if having stringer Norms, but how does the private sector behave? Right to anchor my response in this survey that we we did recently was launched in the April 16 followed corporate misconducted individual consequences. This is brand new I have some printed versions here if you want to otherwise you can go to e y dot com and download from there And yet read address what we just mentioned in this discussion of corruption increase or decrease globally What these are which the survey found is that corruption basically stays at the same Perception of corruption has included When you're looking to the perception globally perception of corruption in Latin America Goes up to 91% of the people at the global beliefs that in Latin America is a very fraudulent place to do business But I mean when you go into the details of this the survey or what you just asked me is that There's no much change in in somehow some of the data is a little bit controversy that people is still is to agreeing on pain bribes Mainly when you have a downturn in economy People still pain bribes agreeing pain bribes. I'm talking about CFO CEOs Paying bribes to keep their business get new business getting to a new business getting to a new country So there is the perceptions are not the perception the reality that the these these survey bring to us Is that there is no too much change on it? Even in Brazil and Brazil get worse even with this lavajato and they have some high-profile lavajat Enforcement going on even though people believe that I mean sometimes worth to to commit the fraudulent act But what what it do believe that something gonna change in Brazil when you think about a Billionaire like Marcelo de Brecht for example in jail for one year by now This is a signal that something is something's changing there. I mean it's unbelievable Usually rich people don't go to jail in Brazil because they can't afford to hire a very Influenced lawyer. So this is you know a signal that these things are changing there and gonna change it the whole South America I believe so, I mean Unfortunately the this survey doesn't bring us the the same spirit of automation that I do have Living in Brazil and seen Behind the scenes what what is what is happening there? Another very interesting data here is that people believe that corruption is somebody else problem 39% of the respondents believe that corruption exists in their own country, but only 11% believe it happens in each sector So it means it's not exactly my problem. It happens here in Brazil, but not in my industry not my in my business So I mean this is something that I have to really to keep working on I believe that changing the waiver and increasing enforcement That's that's gonna be the the really the out the solution for Overcome of you come corruption another detail that's most of the people believe that what is going on in Brazil right now Has started with the lavajato As a matter of fact was not You Brian guess you you remember that we're probably living in, Sao Paulo on April or May 13th people going to the streets And people I mean the society there is no politicians involved on that On the contrary people were rejecting any politicians going there going to the streets I was there with my family my kids Protesting against corruption protests against increase of tax. I'm not having seen return on my tax So that that's where everything started then in January 14th Juma enacted the what we call clean act and corruption Brazilian law and then only on 14 June 14th is lavajato comes up And the lavajato comes up because of some whistleblowering process. So I mean things are really Again, I'm a believer that things gonna is gonna change for it better The time has come now to open the floor to questions at night like to ask Attendees if you have any questions, please ask questions not Make comments and brevity will be appreciated Orlando Machado from Brazil And I would like to ask about the relationship between Having you know a position of trust and corruption in Brazil. We know that Only at a federal level there are even 8,000 of these positions That the presidency is a free to appoint and dismiss So the question is why does a politician want to be the director of Petrobras or Pemex? Through a technical person or someone from the sector, I mean, why do we have so many of these positions of trust and what Is the relationship between this position of trust and corruption? Who would like to answer? You first The issue of human resources in the public sector is a critical issue At least in Colombia it is and I'm sure that this is true for many other countries as well Here the figure of service contracts. I mean people who are not let's say in The career path of the civil service is a matter of great concern particularly when those people fulfilled, you know like mission areas inside the state and On top of that, they are people who cannot be evaluated under Colombian legislation They cannot be evaluated. So when the norm be applies to personnel Having service contracts and not having a formal employment contract We have problems that we have the revolving door problem as well as the Conflict of interest the revolving door is a practice that all too frequently Occurs among all those civil servants who are not career civil servants but are there because they have a service contract and they rotate between the public and private sector Abusing the information they have obtained in their different positions and they use them in their own benefit or for the benefit of a third party and the lack of transparency in Conflict of interest is another very serious issue. I Believe that this is a very important topic. However, I Personally view corruption differently I think that we should not look here and there at the different tools For corruption, but I would say that corruption should be viewed as a symptom The patient has a fever. The problem is not to the fever. The patient is what is causing that fever So it's the institutional framework at large an example 30 years ago Hong Kong had a very high degree of corruption Extraordinary brutal and today it has a very low level of corruption and the difference was made by One specific action which was creating an anti-corruption action Authority that had great powers and technological guarantee their technology is very important and also Had all the tools to combat corruption So the revolving door even though it may be a cause It's just one of the elements in the components in the system And you have to look at the system as a whole the fact that in a country the civil servant Has a position of trust or not that can be appointed or removed That's not the point, but that's just one of the variables of the system. So it's not the fever It's the disease. I mean, what are we attacking? We should be tackling a system next question In Columbia, we have had high-ranking executives Working, you know in anti-corruption international transparency but It seems that they don't have any teeth any power any muscle to Make things happen So what would you dr. Boteto recommend so that these institutions these teams? will actually You know move from good intentions to facts I would like to ask the attorney general Thelma to tell us how to prevent this from becoming endemic in principle. I believe that the citizen participation is key and That the change in culture your transitioning from Tolerance to anti-corruption in Guatemala before 2015 you would say about a former mayor Oh mayor so-and-so robbed. Yes, but not very much. You know, he only robbed a little or he only stole a little or Mayor so-and-so. No, he he was a real thief But at least he left some works behind and and at some point we even said that you know Hopefully the next president won't be as big a thief as the one who just Left them and also in Guatemala. We are highly tolerant to corruption but today fortunately the people the men and women of Guatemala are Fighting against that the culture of corruption and I believe that is what is most important because that is the starting point for Thinking about capacity building Strengthening this is a framework because in Guatemala We have seen a perverse strategy, which is to weaken the public ministry to weaken its budget and Only provide it with what it needs to barely barely pay salaries and that's starting to change In this administration, we have seen not just a change, but also some hope to strengthen the investigator and the justice Courts and tribunals so that it is equipped with the legal and IT and technology It needs to Combat crime. Thank you Evidently the topic of impunity Obviously Demoralized as a society when citizens see that you know people in power There are no consequences for the people in power. They lose credibility. So the question is since corruption has permeated the judicial authorities attorney generals What do you think could actually work in Argentina and Colombia and Peru in Latin America, could we you know could we use a Mechanism like the one used in Guatemala a cc would that help combat the impunity and Get somewhere I don't think I Think that there are different levels of tolerance for foreign countries coming in and setting up parallel judicial institutions I think that in some of the cases of the and forgive me for using this word for the more Institutionally fragile countries in the hemisphere I think that there was an obvious case to be made I think that's why the mandate of the cc originated in Guatemala and has been extended I think we've seen something similar happen now in Honduras under the guise of The OAS the positive side of this is that I believe that there are a lot of countries around the region Brazil Certainly being a case of this where there really is no need for a cc The judicial institutions are strong my gosh I mean look at look at what they've done and I think that that work will continue So I don't I mean I look around the region and I I sort of know Brazil and Argentina in particular from having lived there for so long That idea in a places like that would just be dismissed out of hand You wouldn't even start that discussion Sergio una pregunta como Brasileño puntual que me hacen Question I've been asked here online Perception of the Vilmar Rousseff's Suspension is Corruption related, but actually it was budget management. Doesn't that weaken her image as there is a law that's fiscal responsibility And she didn't follow the law. I mean that's that's one thing But of course when you have a country all country merging all this corruption in claiming for Against corruption the one thing is related to water and we're just discussing here for example sports corruption in sports Look at the Brazilian soccer team. What is going on with the Brazilian soccer team for sure? There's something strange going there. I mean we we still know how to play soccer, but But somehow we are not succeeding anymore. So there's something related or correlated to corruption when you think that our ex former CEO of a FIFA or CBF confederation Brazilian soccer were arrested in Switzerland So I guess always all of that is connected and and Juma was people are seeking tired of her because at the same time This is like the Al Capone do us. I mean they they were they were arrested because of their income tax Not because of all this has done. So it's like to me. It's quite similar. What happened what happened there? We have time for One more question that I want to each of you to Answer in less than 10 minutes, which is the time available. What to do in the future, you know, I Think that the problem has been clearly diagnosed. I think that what's been happening in Latin American society is clear. Obviously, there are different Results of different degrees. So the obvious question is now what I mean, what's the role of people? What's the role of youths? Who would like to start Juan Carlos? What to do there are lots of things to do and let me tell you what we've been doing the first and I've met With anti-corruption agencies from many countries and the truth is what is it? crystal clear is the Autonomous investigative power of the anti-corruption agency is directly tied to the control of corruption on the long term That is evidence worldwide. That's very concrete. That's very specific. I'll give you an example in Hong Kong when They bring someone to the interview room They have a machine that produces two CDs simultaneously One is given to the accused and the other is sent to the anti-corruption agency and the third copy goes to Baka so that Prevents many of the things we see here I mean, you know the hearings the technical side of the investigation is held back and that's not the case over there something we saw in Tunisia was to engage people that are not part of the anti-corruption Instance you know not just judges and lawyers know but bring on board engineers a thousand engineers were Trained in anti-corruption Doctors doctors are interested in corruption in the health care engineers in civil works to bring other Social instances and bring on board all these those different social sectors has proven very important to establish a common Front vis-à-vis corruption and the third more specific more concrete is a purely technology driven I mean each person has a mobile phone They have apps where they can denounce a bribe the bribe happens in India I mean there are hundreds of examples come into our web page and see them and in those cases the technological tool Allow citizens to Immediately identify the situation and then there is a record This is you know the sixty four thousand dollar question to be honest I mean first to guarantee independence and Strengthening of these state apparatus is responsible for preventing investigating and sanctioning and that includes You know how you are? Appointing electing or nominating the directors of control and investigative agencies Second strength in civil society's ability to do social control social oversight and that requires Direct support and I think that the the private sector can help support civil society oversight initiatives over public monies and works And something that is somewhat abstract but yet It's To hold authorities constantly and countable The authorities naturally responsible for overseeing preventing investigating and punishing acts of corruption Said you the role of the private sector I believe The I guess we are doing our homework on that. I mean I guess we are very well connected with government is support Governments actions on that and also listen to the society and responding to that Again, we are we are when we were looking to what happening London's Anti-corruption Forum the sensation that I have is that more we talk more we act I mean more the society act more all these Engines working very well is there to start it. It's a long journey a long process This fight against corruption is really against very powerful and rich people that's going to react and try to keep The couldn't just the current status quo, but I guess we are we are in the right track I mean globally I guess the alliance that is is happening through Prosecutors all over the globe government all over the globe Civil society that's really gonna gonna push this process on there's no way that it can go against the wave and That's I guess I mean if you go through South America Everybody's sick about this this corruption. No nobody can support corruption anymore I mean it's clear the opportunity that they have in this part of the world to Eliminate poverty in certain corruptions one of the reasons that we keep our country in under the constants and the development Madam attorney, what would you like to see in Guatemala? Or what would you like to see disappear in Guatemala and know to implement the democratic policy of Guatemala democratic because that the It's a transversal or cross-coding access is the respect for human rights and its pillars include prevention sanctioning investigation and Social reinstatement or reinsertion. I think that we must also work To you know, hopefully achieve equality. There are certain groups that are still very vulnerable and Are not and the right the rights and that equality is not fully respected And I think that both are very necessary Hey, well try You know, I think the challenge is to get from the old thing to the new thing Right, I mean to get from this old structure where corruption was built into the system to get to a newer Structure that is you know, we'll never be totally clean, but certainly materially better than what existed before And we see in Brazil right now just how difficult that is because Dilma is out at least for now But the structure that's still there is got some, you know of the same flaws so one solution to that is New names and I think that you know people who are part of this modern Younger perhaps generation that have these these values where corruption is not as tolerated These people they need to get off the sidelines and they need to get into politics and That's risky and there are certain things in Brazil for example the way lists for Congress are built You know, there are structural barriers to that But I would like to see more of these younger people across the region. This is true in my country too by the way I mean more people getting involved in politics and then finally, you know as far as the private sector's contribution I think that the things that we've mentioned are important There is a core element here though Which is that I think the private sector needs to be more aware of the fact that what's going on right now these these Processes that are painful in the short term. They are positive in the long term And so therefore Investment should not be put on hold or chased away because of some of the noise associated with this process Actually, if you see a country where this process is taking place, that's where you should probably be making your long-term bet And what we're seeing right now in some of these countries is actually the opposite, you know People investors investments going down people are scared away because they see volatility I would prefer that the mindset change a bit and that they see opportunity associated with this instead Well, very bien creo que hemos llegado Thank you very much. We've come to the end of our working session I mean there's hope there's hope and that's what I would like to take away from this panel and there are ways of You know dealing with the fever Let's hopefully implement corrective measures and we in the end as citizens hope that in a future where if we need not Schedule a program on corruption because it's disappeared. Thank you for your participation