 Welcome to the Martin E. Siegel Theatre Center here at the Graduate Center CUNY and to Prelude 21 Start Making Sents. It is our annual Theatre and Performance Festival celebrating the work of New York Theatre artists of ensembles and it's hard enough in normal times to create work for the stage and for spaces inside and outside but at the time of Corona we all are faced with exceptional challenges and we are here to celebrate again the extraordinary achievements that come out of the New York Theatre community. It is time I think and we feel to start making sense to ask questions why are we making theatre but also how are we producing it and for whom. And this is a great investigation again into the mechanics of making art in New York City and we also invited theatre ensembles from around the U.S. from Detroit and Cincinnati and Lewis and Philadelphia New Orleans to join us and this will be an extraordinary look into what is on the minds of artists right now we also have many panel discussions we have an award which will be giving out to honor outstanding members of the New York Theatre community so I would like to all of you to join in and get an insight of what is happening. Welcome everybody here to the Martin E. Siegel Theatre Center at the Graduate Center CUNY in Midtown Manhattan it is a beautiful day outside we have the sunshine after a couple of days of rain and the sun is shining I think today on our honoree for our prelude festival each year we do celebrate the work and honor the work as a representative for many many others but someone who made a real contribution to the theatre community who made a difference and whose engagement we think stands for the generosity, sincerity and also significance of contributions theatre artists do make not only to their own but also to the city and we have with us Shadeh today from the National Black Theatre up there in Harlem it is a great honor to have you with us and our team decided and voted that it is time to recognize the outstanding and significant and also beautiful work she is doing and with us we have Jonathan McCrory also from this theatre from the National Black Theatre and the great Keith Joseph Atkins who we had many times with us on the Siegel talks for a new black fest and normally he is based in the on the west coast but he happens to be here this week it's a great honor to have all of you here and I would like to say welcome and how are you guys? Shadeh, how are you Jonathan? Keith? Hanging in there it is a wonderful time to be alive and to interrogate what it means to be alive this Thursday feels like the longest Thursday of any week you know but it's incredible to be able to just take a pause and be here with you today to celebrate black theatre celebrate coalitions of theatre of color and then the fact that I get these two genius, genius people with me to have a conversation Jonathan and Keith it's a good day how about y'all? I'm doing it I mean it's a I have to say like it's been beautiful to have this opportunity to feel the sunshine I mean like Shadeh and I just left this beautiful conversation it feels really inspiring although very dynamically pulling in so many different ways it feels like as we re-open I was actually texting Shadeh earlier just talking about how it's really weird when you wake up in the morning and you just feel like you don't have enough time and what does time feel like in this new age of both being on Zoom but also having to be in person and the friction between the two and how although we might not have wanted to have shut down life how in shut down life life was just a little bit simpler and a little bit smoother as far as like you just knew that you're nowhere else to go but like kind of your home so it's been quite dynamic to kind of have to wrestle with all of that Keith how are you back in New York for a week? I'm great I'm not sure I'm having a little bit of audio and visual issues on my end so I hope I'm coming in clearly we hear you perfectly thank you so much I'll let you guys be the barometer of how I'm being received thank you all again you know for being here we also as we always do we would like to acknowledge the Lenape people upon whose land we are gathered today and we respect and pay respect to the Lenape people ancestors past present and future it's an important reminder we always have here and today now we really look at the work you know of Shadeh her work also for the National for the Coalition of Theaters of Color here in New York and I hope you will have a conversation that tells us a little bit more so we learn a little bit more about you know what the work is all about but also how you what you feel and where black theater is at the moment where it's going to I'm gonna blend out about Shadeh maybe show up the award to our audience we think we brought it over yesterday so it's a really awesome award for you to know we at the Segal Center don't just give the award itself as comes also was a $1,500 endowment that is really to its buying books going out seeing things doing research and connecting as a really as an as an encouragement and it means a lot to us we think your work is truly significant and important especially in the time we and it has always been but now of course we look even with both eyes to it so I'll let you to the conversation Jonathan and Shadeh and Kies and goodbye and I'm going to listen and I can't wait to hear what you all have to say again congratulation from our staff from everybody around in the New York theater community for the contribution you make and for sharing and for sharing thank you bye bye I mean I would love to just start by just like if you could just paint a picture for us Shadeh as far as like how have you navigated this pandemic like I mean there has been a huge as a witness sir of looking at what you have done day in and day out is profound sensibility of nuance of thoughtfulness of compassion of rigor of holding the post of actually becoming a new human and actually owning your destiny in so many ways so like if you could just paint like and there are many ways I can remind you of some of the things that you would have been able to accomplish but like if you just paint a picture for us as far as like what has been this moment of pandemic but also what has been this moment of holding this huge space that your mom transitioned and left for you to steward and mantle and how you have created a definitive space for yourself inside of that but also a definitive space for not just yourself but for actually the legacy of black theater and also for people of Afghanistan and ultimately for human transformation well that's a big question and I think it's a question for all of us to kind of wrestle with I think as we dive in here I just want to acknowledge that this award is so moving to me because one of the hats that I get the privilege to wear is to be the chair of the coalition of theaters of color CTC is an organization or is a coalition that's been around since 2004 started by really interrogating just that question and that condition in 2004 by the great the late great Ruby D and I'll see Davis and so for their 50th wedding anniversary they were they as artists that meet activism in active practice they decided to dedicate their 50th anniversary to doing a fundraiser for black theaters because we they as practicing artists and activists understood that the under investment in our spaces was unacceptable and that you know they were two living artists that not only talk the talk they always walk the walk and that first anniversary fundraiser planted the seeds for what a coalition of advocacy could be not only for black theaters but for culturally specific theaters in New York and so the CTC was born and about and it was founded by nine culturally specific theaters some of which are still in existence some of which are not everyone from Gertrude Nets Hadley players and Paul Robeson theater right that we no longer unfortunately have in our community the way we once had but theaters like the National Black Theater the new federal theater the new heritage theater Billy Holiday and the black spectrum theater some of the founding theater then you add Latin X theaters with Thalia and say to create this coalition and really advocate you know I didn't realize before the pandemic to your question Jonathan the importance of coalition building and building community within the communities that we represent to be stronger forces and the coalition started out as these nine theaters we protested we advocated for the New York City government to recognize us and the inequities in a real way that it was unacceptable that the city would talk about the inequities and you know diversity equity and inclusion and not be putting their money where their mouth is and Dominique Rechia a council person really understood that and turned our protests turned our wounds into and heard that heard our wounds as wisdom and created the first cultural initiative in the city budget and it's called the coalition of theaters of color it started out as almost half a million dollars that would go to these culturally specific theaters and I am so proud to say today the coalition of theaters of color represent 52 culturally specific theaters across all five boroughs and with the help of our friends in government really the leadership of Lori cumbo the majority leader I have to say all of this because it's just true and the advocacy of council person and cultural chair Jimmy Van Bremer this year we had in a year where and I and it tells you about the work of the coalition but also what this last year has been through our advocacy through our activism we have grown that budget initiative with the leadership of the city council to be 5.7 million dollars that goes directly to the work the preservation the artistry of culturally specific theaters within the coalition so I am over the moon that you know that historical moment in time where things are getting cut the recognition of the work of our theaters are growing and so much of this last year has been beating that drum not only for the work of the National Black Theater does but on behalf of culturally specific theaters from Native American to Latin X to Asian Pacific to Asian theaters to black theaters in this way again shout out to black the black Latino and Asian caucus within the city council without your dedication and commitment to the work that we do we would not have been able to be in this moment so thank you for honoring the work of the CTC I get to chair it for the time being but I am but I am just one of 52 organizations doing the good work and fighting their good fight and so that's been the last that's been really beating that drum in addition to the work we get to do the National Black Theater that has been the last two years educating our friends in government and our cultural friends at PWIs that our work is the work right and that we all have to come around the same watering hole and beat that same drum in a year of the school year 21 where we had a full shutdown of arts and culture and our budgets were being cut sometimes as big a cut as 50% of cultural budgeting you know the city heard us that we said listen in the wake of everything you know to be true you have the power of the artists you have the power of storytelling that your budgets when you go into those rooms and you vote on your budget and what you're going to cut understand it's a moral document yeah yeah yeah story do you want to tell in your budget because if you laud us for being storytellers and cultural and cultural shapers understand you have that same power with the story that you write with the budget and so in FY 21 we were the only cultural initiative in the whole New York City budget that didn't get cut and then they came even stronger this year around in FY 22 and increased our funding by $2 million direct funds to these 52 organizations so anyway that's my soapbox thank you Aussie Davis and Ruby D thank you ancestors thank you to most importantly the 52 organizations that continue to be doing the frontline work in our communities to keep arts culture and specifically theater alive authentically so okay I got that out of the way welcome back he we're just we're checking in about how how we are and how we have navigated the last year and a half of COVID I just you know was talking about the work of the CTC and I know that we all have navigated it differently so I'm going to throw that question over to you how are you how is the condition of who you are and how has the last year to happen yeah no I appreciate that yeah please forgive me for my audio visual matrix issues I don't know this is a post full moon effect like I don't know what's happening but I'm glad to be back and definitely I've heard a lot of what you said about what was happening with in BT I think on the new blackfest front you know I'm pretty much a solo operation with the help support of a couple of associate producers and we've been very quiet like you know when the pandemic happened and initially we shut down I'm just one of those people who troubleshoot very quickly and I could see the future was like okay we need to shut down and just kind of take our time kind of think about it kind of you know read the room read the global room and and from there we all decided to pause it like just pause and let's kind of rethink what the new blackfest means like what does it mean to be normally putting a light on social justice issues that are national and international but now there's this larger phenomena at play that's almost in a way both shadowing social justice but also reshaping social justice right because now you have issue about health care inequities and all these things that happened during the pandemic that was quite visible then so for us we just decided to pause until it was important that we knew exactly where we what we were re entering what the world we were actually re entering and then kind of re imagining and curating our normal programming based on the real world and we're still trying to kind of figure what that what that is because things are still changing constantly and transitioning constantly but so so on that front the front of just sort of like programming and where we are and that on that front that's what that is on a personal level keep as human being keep as artists keep as artistic sort of leader if that woman call me that I've had an ample amount of time to really dig deep and really like return to some big emotional moral questions for myself that you know you know and as we all know as artists like our moral sort of our moral architecture and our emotional architecture and our spiritual architecture of things that inform our art and during this pandemic I was sort of you know dropped hard on the ground like oh yo Keith you need to rethink your moral situation here you need to think your emotional situation you need to think your spiritual situation so I feel like I've come out of this pandemic are coming I'm rising up at this point in the pandemic a bit more evolved than I was 18 months ago spiritual emotional and moral tip and I feel much more confident about myself I feel much more guided as far as like what I want as a human being what I want in my art what I want in the TV and film world how when I participate in that it's got things just have gotten really really focused for me and recently as we probably all know now the Lark Play Development Center are closing their doors which has been outside of the National Black Theater and the Segal Theater Center have been you know collaborators and sort of housed us now we don't have that house anymore right we don't have that place to fall and sort of like lean into and so we're kind of on our own again which is great luckily we still have you all who continue to so open your doors and you know open your door to whatever we have going on but also the Apollo Theater has been instrumental now we're sort of rethinking about what we're doing and how we do it you know and how we collaborate with each other so yeah I think that's really powerful Jonathan and I often say the shift is hitting the fan that's been the last two years like the shift is hitting the fan and the shift is important and the shift is it looks a lot like a lot like you have described in all the in all of the ways Jonathan I'm going to throw to you and say can you talk a little bit about the power of the pause you want to talk about artistically artistically and personally the power of the pause and there really has been a lot of power as you kind of described it Keith in these last two years as much as there has been really hard time so the power of the pause Jonathan I mean the power of the pause for me has been really reflective and also I have taken it as a cocoon and I have been like and I have been positive for those who might who might have heard me talk before it's like what was this moment if it wasn't a gift to really do what caterpillars do inside a cocoon and re augment to re strengthen find new bones strengthen find new colors that create that create the authentic representation of yourself so that when you come out of this cocooning process you get to become you get to live inside of an essence of the butterfly and what I love about that idea and the ideology is that the butterfly isn't isn't is graceful is transformative but also is delicate still still has a softness to it that you don't come into this new this new world that actually has that they were all interacting with that that comes on the other side of the shutdown not the pandemic but the shutdown how this how how do you engage this new world and a really beautifully authentic rigorous and present pulse way that those full of thoughtfulness and compassion I think that you know a lot of a lot of ways like I thought my job transformed I feel like my my what I was actually being asked to do of being present for artists and being present to my company which I serve those two things totally took another took another deep dive beautiful twist wanting more needing more wanting me to show up more needing me to show up more and trying to figure out what does actual transformative care look like what does what does what does can what does care look like that is not prescriptive but it's very much that is that is very much allowing for someone to show up in their wholeness and for you to start creating parameters and programming that allows for it allows for their unique IP to be cared for illuminated and show and showing up so what have I done in the pandemic I've also like you know discovered what radio plays feel like again and really dialing into what radio plays look like as an actual creative space for black artists to really own and hone and be a participant inside of I've also I've also been triggered to film since the pandemic in the midst in the midst of the pandemic being given an opportunity to do residency at all arts and be able to do a short which is something that was I didn't I would never say I didn't think I would ever do but the fact that I am doing it now that's like feels like fully new and different and exciting and also and also creating conditions at MBT to really make sure the individual artists that left to the wayside in a midst of all of this shut down our progress that that as we as institution builders move our move our organizations forward in our very respective ways that we think about how we can do micro support to macro support so we started a resident or reading series program where we did 23 black playwrights during the pendant during the shutdown in particular we're continuing it past that but 23 black playwrights a space to do micro development which gave them outside of our residency program we were able to support more create more more space and giving them our zoom doing them giving the playwrights money giving the director money giving actors money just to play for six hours and then with no commitment of like saying like you have to show us something you have to do something like just have six hours just to generate narrative generate something that like if we're if we're going to be in the shutdown moment let us walk out of it again thinking about the the other analogy of coming out of the cocoon the husk of that cocoon let us come out of there with new narratives stronger narratives more focused narratives so that the American theater can actually have a fertile ground starts to really address our now state instead of our past state and I think that's been the interesting thing with the reopening has been looking at the plethora of work that is happening it like you can feel the true divergence of if it was supposed to be produced before the pandemic if it was produced in response to the pandemic and if it's in response and it's also responding to creating space for our trauma that we went through or the grief that we went through because of the show going through yeah going I want to just thank you so much here you both of you in your responses talk about care and keep you were talking about your emotional and your spiritual architecture and Jonathan you were talking about after care and responsive care not only to yourself but to the community of people and artists and audiences I think that that is a unique way of working blackly right that we now get an opportunity to have these conversations that are streamed all over the world about our work practice being you know linked so closely you know irreparably linked it's not a word I don't know that's the right word but it is the word now with the architecture and the foundation of our spirit and our emotions that we can't actually be responsible leaders without incorporating as a foundational principle care and I think that to me if that is something that came out of this pandemic only the three of us in our respective roles are talking about personally but pouring that into our organizations and saying hey whatever partnership wherever space we go into that is a part of the equation I think is really powerful and is a takeaway from a conversation like this if you're not having conversations about your spiritual emotional care what are we building building back differently and that makes me think about this other thing that I really want us to dive into because I don't feel like we're having these conversations publicly after the murder of George Floyd our communities erupted in protest and our responsiveness to those protests were part of a continuum that we saw for the first time globally people participating in and you touched on that and the work of the new black vest works with these issues of social justice what has it been like through the innovation of care through the innovation of protest and these very particular conditions that have put us in virtual spaces to grow not only our audiences globally but to see the work of our activism being globally ignited how has that for both you and Jonathan for you and Jonathan how has that affected the way in which you think about producing the kind of work you think about producing and what role does a global audience have in how you think about what you want to put forward and the mediums in which you want to work Jonathan do you want to start or I'll let you go first that's an amazing question and I think about initially after the George Floyd global outrage that happened that we all witnessed for the new black vest in particular I wanted to recently we were commissioned by the Apollo to curate part of their new season with the new victory in template what we normally do is normally social justice sort of inspired work things that are happening now but now of it all and because George Floyd happened and the shutdown happened it was very important to me in the context of care to allow the writers to take their time in discovering and deciding what they wanted to discuss in this sort of what's happening now curation I didn't want to prompt them while all that was happening because I felt like normally as black or historically as black and brown and people of the African diaspora and the brown diaspora were often responding very quickly to what's happening in front of us and changing laws and moving our families or whatever the situation sort of necessitates but I did want to even though there was a part of me that wanted to sort of let these writers just sort of unleash exactly how they were feeling but they have been doing that for the last decade and I felt like I wanted them to take the time to take care of their spirits because it was overwhelming that global outrage it was amazing but also overwhelming because it was like once again this is happening to us once again once a week almost right but this sort of like iconic event is happening to us once again this is how the world is outraged by it and it's time for us to just sit back and pause and just really pause and just take it all in and understand what our next moves are and really but even outside of all that because the sort of the social justice urgency to it all is definitely important in paramount but we are also human beings we're also individual specimens on this planet and we also are feeling and responding to all the things like everybody else from the weather to the climate change to the you know the environment to the unrest like all that's happening to us just like it's happening to everybody else in the globe but we have the added burden of having to navigate and deal with unwarranted policing and attacking of our bodies in our communities so for me again just to underline like it was so important that people in my at least in my community paused took a breath checked in with themselves in order to then step forward as you're mentioning Shade and figure out the next plan of action and what does that look like now now that we have global sort of a global look a global sort of illumination of what's going on what does that look like now does it sound the same is it shaped the same are the stories the same like you know are we still talking just to each other are we now talking to the global community you know I think I'll say all that and I'll lend my playing with that for now but yeah I think what's powerful about that is two things one of the things that was so incredible to see in my own generation because perhaps our parents saw it a little bit was how this global movement was really a global movement and to see our white brothers and sisters pick up the picket signs and be on the front lines it actually gave us space to breathe like I was like y'all this is your fight and y'all need to be on the front line and what we need to do is pause and take care because this what you have experienced as trauma porn what you're experiencing as violence is trauma porn in our lives that we are living in and have to protect our babies so while we are worried about our babies y'all be on the front line and I thought for me that was catalytic and it didn't feel like my role as a black woman and a mother was to do anything but pause and to take care of me and mine and me and mine looks like like our community the other thing I just want to point out because I want to get Jonathan in here I know he has so much to say is this is why I think it was so important and again thank you Jonathan and Keith we wanted to do this conversation live so it could be on howl round because we understand we have brothers and sisters all over the globe tuning in to watch this conversation and that our condition our condition is the condition we're also connected and we have learned that through the last year in a half but I want to throw it to you Jonathan to get some thoughts on it and then I want to share a little story about National Black Theater of Sweden in regards to this go ahead Jonathan you're muted my sweet there we go I'll mute button I think you would think I would have known that by now and two years of being virtual I would have learned it the learning curve is real I mean what I think about is really important and really building on the conversation that we're talking about how can we be any more structured than the planet that holds us and the planet that holds us is going through I think Keith you brought this up in other conversations I've had with you and I really appreciate it and made me think about how how can I find structure the planet that actually holds me that's actually my fertile ground I mean a cathartic moment actually going through there's a cathartic moment happening inside of my system and that that cathartic it doesn't mean it's peaceful doesn't mean that it's full of roses or that it feels good it means that there is a friction that's happening on a the nature is teaching me that I am internally and a part of a systematic rebirth and a regeneration if I'm humble enough may include me or may not and am I okay with that contribution that I will give to that regeneration because is my and what is my goal inside of at the end at the end of the finish line I think that's what COVID really made me clear about and the shutdown really made me clear about like during the shutdown I had to do I had to move and I had to move location and there was a moment this might feel kind of morbid it was like the world my end and the world end I'm not the kind of person that's going to be fighting my way over a wall because I don't want to I'm not going to be that person that's just not me I'm going to be like I've done my service to God in country and I'm ready to be released I don't need to see what happens after the atomic bomb hits I don't need to see that I can be so what I did is I created my home to be my temple I was thinking of the pyramids I was thinking of how you generate a womb like state that allows for regeneration to happen but also legacy and spirituality to be housed and home and what would it mean to imagine the freed black space in which I'm able to occupy this home in which I'm able to call be privileged to call my home what if it was etched with the DNA of my liberation what if it was etched with the DNA of my freedom in life to be so that regardless of what happens to the world outside of me because the world outside of me I can't control what is the spaces in which I can create conditions so that I can find my freedom and know my liberation I mean what's really quite beautiful and I'm going maybe on a little tangent and making me think about this but it's to make me think about the power of the ring shout Shaday and I are working on this project at the Apollo theater which is called the gathering of sonic ring shout and it's making me think about how we as black people have the opportunity have inside of us a DNA of understanding how to shift the modality of oppression as a means not to be our destination but to create safe containers inside of us disrupt it as our normal way of being and I'll only bring up the ring shout as an example so the ring shout for folks who might not know about the ring shout the ring shout was a technology that was brought over by during the transatlantic slave trade many black folks on that treacherous journey brought over a technology that would allow for them during the Antebellum South to find their liberation and the mist of slavery so what would happen is that many black and brown folks would after working the till on the cotton field they would go out into the bushes into the trees into the dark of night would go out into the bushes into the trees into the dark of night would go out into the bushes into the trees into the dark of night when after working in the sunlight right again they want to paint the conditions of what resilience what joy and what magic lives inside of the human body and condition of the black body in particular so after doing all that labor would go out into the field find a sacred space that they wouldn't deem a sacred create a perimeter around that sacred space and start to enact their liberation their church reclaim their body reclaim their spirit reclaim the spaces in which they have been they've been whipped, lashed, degraded and knowing that in the morning that they would go back to being a part of a system knowing that in the morning they would going back to being a part of picking that cotton being a part of that industrial system that they would never, that they would not claim any kind of residual out of right they would just again be a product inside that and a clog inside that wheel and why I say all that to say why I lift that up as a modality is that when I hear you talk Keith about the need for the pause and the need for the reframe and the need for creating that space for your own healing when I think about the work that you have been doing Shade and I think about my own and individual practice of this cocooning I think of three individuals and there are probably multiple ways in which we have done that and multiple if we had more time we had many more folks on this we could probably figure out multiple ways of interventions but how how we have been deliberate and wanting to activate our joy as a sacred act of thrive ability and how we need to activate our joy as a sacred act of how we thrive and how we can thrive yeah as resistance as resilience as our weapon our joy right the unbreakable joy of black folks is the privilege that we get to work in the legacy and the continuum of right I just want to can I just before yeah go for it tag into what you and John there were just talking about and this idea of nature being the real leader actually as far as motivation and aggressive resilience right it's like you know and also like the pausing right because even nature pauses so let me just make up a lot of noise if you're not going to hear me I'm going to make even more noise and I'm sorry folks I know y'all but some of y'all been on my side and advocating for me so y'all just ride with the rack just trust me I'm taking you to the place you need to go right and for me it's just I so appreciate Jonathan sort of illuminating that and just you know Shade just kind of like putting another light on this idea of pause and motivation as the new liberation right and so I just feel like nature is our guide like nature right now is being unapologetic about its needs to be re-craft and re-cure its existence and it doesn't care whose feelings it hurts it doesn't care not at all well that's the power of storytelling right authentic storytelling the earth is telling an authentic story right now exactly keeping all of our conditions because it's unapologetic that is why what we do is a reflection of and is essential the way nature is essential because it is course-correcting whether you like it or not how shit is yes I also just want to uplift this very real thing that as you talk about course-correcting you also talk about blessing you also talk about pause right is that the beauty of because when I just think about this pause that happened and also the amount and I don't want to ever forget this because this reminds me of how privileged and blessed I am the amount of people who were who transitioned throughout this period there's a huge amount of people who transitioned in this period however and not however and the universe is abundant and it's like creating equal balance meaning that the folks who got to survive what privilege do we now have and being to have access to our breath what transformation is called on our lives that we were saved on so many ways to not be a part of that huge vacuum of folks who would transition and who are now guiding us in different ways and a part of this conversation in different ways and what to and what it makes it makes me really really get humbled in a lot of ways of like well then what is my charge to do on this planet how am I supposed to take rest restoration how much was to take care of my health my own life how much to take care of the health of my family and the people that I love and what ways do I have and what ways am I the one inside of this conversation when there were and knowing that balance was created balance is a part of it because we sometimes put good and bad out there we say that was good and that was bad but what if it was all just part of the equation of equal right what if it was part of an equation of not good or bad but just life on life's terms what if we had to wrestle with that because if it didn't happen what transformation or innovation would not happen like we wouldn't be doing this kind of virtual innovation if it didn't happen it would have happened down the road but there was an acceleration that was necessary that energy fell oh right no no no you're like this is why I'm so glad we're talking to each other and it's also this introducing the concept of discomfort across the board for all of us to lean into and have a love affair with discomfort not only to have a leveling of what it might be like to walk in the shoes of other folks who live in a space of ultimate discomfort ultimate otherness in order to have a shared human experience whether that's happening on the level of racial reckoning environmental reckoning like what are the people in the Amazon have been dealing with for generations like the oil what is that discomfort so what does famine look like in Africa that we experience in the hurricane of Ida today like what is happening and I want us all to just dive into that because I'm going to steer this a little bit but like what does what are the questions that are not being asked conversations that are not being had that we get the privilege in this moment in time to ask and to have what this is an extension of and how are we right sizing and course correcting through our observation and experiences of the last years I know get in there oh yeah I mean yeah just pulling from what you're saying like I mean what I was thinking about was this idea of Ida was talking about how do we take advantage or how do we honor the breath that we were given during this situation when so many people transition and I think there's something to say about leadership right because I think there was a recent quote I heard online I think it made from a hip hop artist but they mentioned something about stepping into your stepping into the position that you're in like as opposed to like oh no I really got that kind of power no you do got that we're at a time right now that you have to accept those of us who are leaders have particularly artistic leaders have to accept that we are in a position of power and we are in a position to be heard we are in a position to point in a certain direction or whatever direction that is and really stepping into that and really bringing with that our sort of collective desire for the future right there are collective desire for the present but my bigger point of all that is to say that I mentioned Shadea about all the discourse and the discomfort globally that people have been experiencing for millenniums right not just brown and black people but there's whites who have also experienced discourse in the Appalachian mountains in the eastern part of Europe in the northern part of you know southern part of Asia that connects to Russia like you know what I mean there's a lot of people who have been experiencing discomfort and I think that the more articulate and unafraid and unapologetic about what we need to do whether or not people listen to us or not as leaders we just still have to put it out there and hopefully you know what I mean I just wanted to say that yeah and we have about like 12 minutes left so there's a topic I want to talk about but just to put a pin on it I know that we are both working with an incredible playwright right now James Eims and as you guys love like a blessing to the world that folks are listening to us get into James Eims but as Jonathan is asking us to ask the question how do you turn ghosts into ancestors how do you transform ghosts into ancestors and what is the role of this vacuum that has sucked all of these souls to the other side I think of some of James's work and really contemplating not the moment of trauma and tragedy but the resurrection of possibility out of it and so I just wanted a center and artist who's incredible that we're both working with in this moment so this is where I really wanted to get into in these last minutes that we have left this for the majority of folks who are experiencing our talk are also experiencing an unprecedented representation of black theater especially in the commercial space and so Broadway has an unprecedented seven black plays and shows on Broadway and folks are calling in a renaissance I know I'm stirring it up right now and I just was wondering if you guys could reflect on what's happening from your vantage point right now and if we can talk a little bit about from your perception the difference between black plays and black theater and what are the questions that are being asked and what are the conversations that want to be had that are getting lost in translation one can die just throw it at me I'm going to let Jonathan start with that what is this I think that there becomes a very needed perspective of wanting to understand how calling out creates a mechanism for people to work from not an authentic space of really wanting to create transformation but trying to just put a bandaid over a situation they're just trying to shut it up you think about sometimes instead of actually healing the situation you just try to put a bandaid over it because you're like I don't want to bleed anymore stop making me bleed I don't care just take care of it and I think that when we're thinking about how some of these plays are being brought on or how the plays are being taken care of in the larger we're seeing that bandaid kind of happen quite rapidly and aggressively and in doing that the care that would not necessarily be taken to make sure that it feels whole that it feels taken care of that it feels that it feels like it is dramaturgically and also spiritually and also community wise well done and thoughtful in that way I don't know if it's necessarily being done I think there's an element of sensationalism that's happening inside of sensationalizing black trauma sensationalizing black thought sensationalizing black IP that it would be quite that I don't that and that's actualization you can see the demarcation in some spaces it goes back to was this a pre-pandemic play or was this a play that was made for this time this moment in time that we're actually dealing with this moment in time that we're actually addressing with the human condition like we're allowing this art to give us a glimpse into the human condition of where we are today and and I'm challenged by I'm challenged by the disparity between that curatorial lens it's not it's not it's not it's not equal it's very much wobbly and as I try and as I seek to and I think I try to seek to do this and people might you know everyone has their point of view but it's my mission so it's my life that's how I want to do it I try to uplift every black artist who possibly can I try to uplift them in how and how I come to witness their work if I can carve out as many hours as I can to do that should I do that and how I try to give opportunity provide opportunities for black artists to do their work and a black artist should be able to fail forward my question is that do we have a mechanism that allows them to fail forward and not for that to be their destination do we have a mechanism to capture not as a way in which that tarnishes one's career but a way in which for us and I don't know if we evolved yet to that point but but but when we look at when we look at these are let's honestly look at the reviews that have come out around black work in the New York market in particular some of them have been quite harsh to two black playwrights in particular and I wonder with those conditions actually out there in the world will those black playwrights have been given the same kind of privilege that white playwrights white identify playwrights have been able to have to fail multiple times be invested in multiple times knowing that a trajectory of someone's career is not made off one play trajectory of someone's career and their ability to hone their their voice is made off a durational period and so how are we turning these investments of these moments that are popping up into durational opportunities to develop the human not just to develop your guilt outside of your white supremacy lens if we're not having a conversation about developing the human then this is a momentary conversation that's actually harmful and we're creating harmful conditions for black bodies to engage with and making us think that it is revolutionary when actually it is deteriorating the kind of soulfulness of the black art hmm wow yeah I mean I think you know pulling pulling some from Jonathan I have many thoughts about what's happening as far as the Broadway you know I think that I think it's I think on one level it is an amazing thing to have so many stories that are quote-unquote black stories on Broadway because that's not something that Broadway normally sort of advocates for particularly if they're not musical right so there's a lot of so-called drama type plays right now which is you know kind of revolutionary in context to how Broadway produces you know I so I'm happy for that on a sort of intellectual sort of intellectual level and I'm also you know thrilled that so many black theater practitioners that I know personally or in my community or in our community who are actually working right now right who are actually making those Broadway salaries that we can salaries that are now able to afford their you know their children's you know college tuition and whatever that is right like eat better you know all those things yes really matter for artists so so on an emotional level I'm happy for that I think you know I think it also is important for me to think about the difference between which out of you mentioned there was between black story and black plays and that sort of differentiation like for me like black stories about Barry witness and it's about what sort of like is in the tradition of the black church on Wednesday night when people come to bear witness to what's happened this week and seek out some redemption or some sense of inspiration right or some arc of change like for me like that is black story that's all story but black story in particular that it's important that it functions that way and I'm normally able to detect that when I see a play that this is a bearing of witness of an artist I am also able to detect when plays are curated using Jonathan's language curated in a way that is feeding the white gaze and white consumption that doesn't matter that black people are in the audience or not it doesn't matter that this is very this is just about being sort of unloading whatever ain't that I may have about my own black this is self hate sort of like anti-blackness which is understandable because we all have some residue of anti-black because we're part of a colonialist colonialism and systemic racism so that does exist but then you have situations where most white people are not aware of how settler colonialism works and how anti-blackness works under a systemic racist society so then they advocate for voices that I feel often unevolved voices or voices that are stuck in their anti-blackness and they don't know how to move out of that because they have all these white cultures and not all white people I'm just talking about the sort of structural systemic whiteness that programs who sort of thumbs up that's an amazing story that's a provocative story and they're not thinking about the impact that type of what I call unloading or unleashing that isn't really about bearing witness it's about well I feel safe enough in this white space to say these things but I know I can't say that among black people because they ain't going to accept me and all that kind of sort of like ideology but um but that to me is what I feel that's happening right now on Broadway there's like a nice slice of great sort of like bear witnessing people just telling their stories people like you know showing this is who black people are this is my black experience but there's also this other thing that's happening where it's like white systemic whiteness and consuming whiteness is lifting up this sort of story that isn't really about anything but pleasing and satisfying tantalizing fricking with whatever it is with the white with the white gaze and that to me is detrimental and dangerous and archaic now we're in this world of global sort of like expression and global sort of like alliances like do we still need that like do you know what I mean and I don't want to police anybody because everybody should be able to write whatever they want but everybody should also be able to critique whatever they see right and so what I'm critiquing critiquing without putting any picture on anybody because I'm sure whatever but I'm just saying that I think there is some interesting things happening that is not rooted in black health or even global sort of awareness it's sort of like let me just be whiteness and that to me is problematic I shade I can't believe we got that in first of all that is a whole testimony it is a whole thesis both what you and Jonathan have raised into the space and those are the questions that are not being asked or the conversations have being had and without those questions those answers interrogation I fully believe we are causing violence right the speed by which we get there and I just want that if there's anything to contribute to both of what you said or to offer something is what I take away from what Jonathan said is like culture versus strategy is what happening on Broadway a strategy that feeds into a larger colonial imperialistic capitalist agenda to satisfy stakeholders on for a whole list of for a whole list of good reasons and profit driven reasons right why are all the opening plays where we don't know what the atmosphere or the audience will be or the appetite will be post pandemic while folks are still sick the majority of the plays past this reopening experimental stage do we still have a roster of black stories are we asking each other the question am I bearing witness who's in the audience if we're laughing how are we laughing and who's laughing those questions and then just to pull from what you brilliantly were saying Keith is also this is something I've been thinking about and writing about revolutionary acts versus transformative acts yes and that the revolution which is constantly pinned on black folks back is always a target and can there be sustainable change if you're always the revolutionary taking on that fire right but what is transformational acts look like that creates sustainable shifts and changes paradigm changes that we can have conversations about black storytelling without it being tied to black profits and our audiences so I'm just like when do black people get to rest and not have to be the revolution right right right right because we're having generational conversations about how we transcend survival into thriving and do that if the north star is always a white audience yes yes yes um yes I mean the north star is all the white audience and the critique is always from a white gaze I mean I'm so I am so tired of not being able to critically analyze a piece for both for both where it needs evolution and where it is where it's blind and where it sees right where it wins like we only say good or bad like no if there's gray why can we live in a space right because because like that is not allowing for a wonderful a wonderful like a wonderful reality check to show up that every we all have spaces of evolution that we need to evolve into and and and and like and like if we're not able to critically look at and analyze the ways in which someone lives inside of a trajectory of work right body of work how how how a piece is a part of a continuum but also being able to talk about um ways in which that individual that individual piece visual production because I will say this and I think this is the one main issue and I'll stop right here I think it's unfair I think for the playwrights of a new play that that a review solely only kind of either good or bad talks about the playwright and doesn't give enough critique on the direction that's my personal opinion that like that like it really puts so much weight on the playwright to have to make it so well done when actually the embodiment of the world from it is from the vantage point of the director the director is the person that made many of those choices that that the playwright is being an adverse like in reflection to and I think sometimes when I look at review I I think we let we let we let a very critical voice off of the hook sometimes and we blame and we put so much weight on the playwright or or spotlight on the playwright and we don't nuance the perspective to allow for to allow for it to be a shared weight that goes on with both the playwright and the director that both of them just I want to just also say that what folks don't know from an audience perspective and I learned this firsthand on kind of the front lines of working with government through this moment in time is that the product is not the process and this is what you're saying Jonathan because I also think these producers need to be held accountable about the resources that they're investing in a development process right because it's like are these works developed in the same way and enhancement product enhancement production that has had years of sorry that has had years of development and workshop right this falls on the producers shoulders as well not just the director or the playwright and I guess because I know we could talk about this forever forever forever and ever I also just want to invite folks to say that black folks and black culture isn't a box to be checked which is why it's important to understand that part the difference between culture between black stories and witnessing and checking a box for your own sense of perceived responsibility in a reactive moment in time that I promise you as Shade Litka as the National Black Theater I will never call you out I will always call you in because I see you as more than a box too right yep yep she got real hood on us she got sweat on most hood I didn't see Shade Gidehu in a while she went like she did okay alright I will see a box over one no that's important yeah I want to give you and Jonathan the last words because I also want to be respectful of you guys's time so Keith I'm going to give you a last word and then Jonathan and Keith you all get the last word and I'll take us out okay yeah I mean I you know as a last word I will say that you know this time out or this sort of active time out that's happening right because this is not over has been transformative and continues to be transformative for me as an individual as a human being as Jonathan mentioned as an artist as an artistic leader I really force me to stand much stronger and much steadier in my truth in my POV in what I want for my own personal world my communal world and my sort of artistic world as far as accountability and authenticity and responsibility but without judgment also providing grace because I think there's something to this pandemic that really forced me to understand the importance of grace particularly with people of color particularly of people of the African diaspora who have experience for the last 400 plus years on an international level because we are not the only ones who have been impacted by the Atlantic slave trade and colonialism in other places and still exist there that people need to be given grace and understand what that means and that's why I even say earlier when I was seeing it earlier about what's happening on Broadway and me being able to differentiate between the bare witness scene that's happening there and also the pandering to whiteness that's happening there and the pandering part giving that grace giving those artists grace because I feel like there is still room for recognition or at least awareness if that's indeed what they want because at the end of the day some people don't want that some people can be taken through a pandemic a hurricane a F5 tornado on the emotional level and a physical one and still not want to change their game plan their game plan is whiteness the North Star will always be whiteness I don't care what you say I don't care what kind of molasses you throw in my face my star is whiteness so because of thankfully grace would allow us even those of us who want the best for our communities and each other to sit back and let those folks and let those entities do what they gotta do but we're on another page so I just want to say at the end of the day my last word is during this pandemic during this shutdown I have learned that grace is the engine and the fuel to kickstart I'll say revolution but more importantly transformation I'll say I'll say yes Grace because also I just want to say and I might want to amplify his last word, my last word is that because we don't ever know what's inside, what someone else has experienced and how that experience is creating the condition of what you are seeing of their reality so they might not show up on time they might not respond to that email but why are they not doing that you have no idea especially during this pandemic if it's COVID if it's a COVID scare the fact that they're financially in a scare their health, their families in a scare if they just need mental rest because they've been on so many zooms that they can't fathom how to move left right up and down that the element of grace is deeply important to interrogate not only yourself but how you are in relationship to life and life is with individuals life is with the planet life is with your your dog or your cat or because there's a dog barking I'm just thinking about it so how do you embody grace as a mechanism of liveable conditions not a space where we kind of just again to your point, Shadeh, just check a box just like say they're not doing this they're not doing this and I'm going to ride them off how are we creating graceful conditions for them to be vulnerable and have radical candor be a part of their everyday being if we can create a space for radical candor to show up we will all breathe differently and we would start to move transformatively to a resolve that would allow for us to not have this be our story anymore this is only showing up again in our historical memory because the universe is telling us this is our first time so I'm going to replay 1968 to happen in 2020 and let me see if you can wake up this time and if you don't, I'm going to make it bigger I'm going to make it bigger and I'm going to make it bigger do we want to be that big and that's the question that I ask right wow, I got grace right as I know I promised folks a quick story about National Black Theater of Sweden which I will deliver in my closing remarks the thing about the thing about grace is that it's the alchemy of our humanity grace is something we can all afford grace is what this pandemic has given us in that it connects us all and the power of our storytelling is really getting at the molecular structure human molecular structure of our connectivity grace is something we can all afford and it connects us I will say in closing in 2018 MBT supported some brilliant artists in Sweden to open the National Black Theater of Sweden Jonathan and I had the privilege to go over and work with these Afro-Swedish artists and we were wrestling with storytelling and there was a perception that they weren't any great Afro-Swedish authors and it was because they were living inside a culture that valued storytelling the label in a very specific way and Jonathan and I uplifted that everybody has a story to tell and that if you could tell your story radically, if you could tell your story energetically, you were a writer and that was confusing at first as a concept in this circle that we had created story circle that we created and we said let's all write about a time that brings everyone together so we said what is Sweden you know, Martin Luther King's civil rights moment and we reflect on that for you know, your country and your culture and they said we don't have one our Martin Luther King Jr. moment I have a dream moment was Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. that your protest opened the door for our protests your words and your strategy gave us words and so I in this incredible talk to say that the world is watching and we all have a responsibility to our mother which is earth nature will inform the way and it will always be what we strive to be which is authentic unapologetic unflinching in its honesty and truth and as a result we will shift, we will grow and we will move in the direction because the picture is always being painted and we just have to listen I'm so grateful to the Marseille Center for this award the artists on this talk to be able to share some of us with you a global audience and to say ask the questions that are not being asked and I invite you to have the conversations that are not being spoken about and to lean into the discomfort to be able to illuminate the diamonds within all of us thank you so much for joining me Keith and Jonathan thank you for having us Marseille Center and thank you for this award really and truly it's an honor