 Okay, hi everybody welcome back to another podcast here for tan books. I'm Paul Ken Gore and Steve Cunningham is the producer We have a fellow tan books author here Carrie grass somebody that I'm a big fan of I've been reading her stuff for a long time I even have by Carrie. I've got ultimate makeover here, which wow Yeah, I was going to my shelf Yeah, yeah to grab the anti-merry exposed and I saw ultimate makeover up there So we're gonna You're kind of short bio. You're a you're a fellow at the ethics and public policy center That was that was newly announced which our friend Ryan Anderson the great Ryan Anderson now now runs You have your PhD from Catholic University Catholic University of America You are author or editor of a bunch of books. I don't know. Do you do you count them? Do you have any idea? It's probably close to 10, right? I've done a but three of them have co-authored So I did one with George Weigel on John Paul the second's crack out and then I've thought they're the theology of home series with No, I'm airing. Okay. What's the George Weigel book? Which one is that? City of Saints is what it's called. Oh, okay to crack out. So yeah, that was actually my first book So we do that together and when did that come out? You know, it was when World Youth Day was right before it So it must have been like 2016 or something. I can't I can't remember maybe seven sure all right. All right. Very good Well the way we're gonna do this so instead of just giving a bio that I read to start this We kind of go through your bio. So we'll talk a little bit about, you know, where you're from what you do We're already hitting those things then the the books that you've done and Anti-Barry Exposed also your latest book and I want to hit We'll conclude by talking about what what your next project is if you're if you're comfortable with that But probably next to last and I want to hit this kind of hard And this is the reason that we set up this interview rather than that I wanted to talk to you anyway and talk about your books But but the whole big tech censorship issue and and what happened with with Anti-Barry Exposed at Facebook and Instagram So we'll we'll hit we'll hit that on the way as well. So just to start off Let tell us a little bit about whatever you're comfortable talking about where you're from how you got to where you are And you're a little bit about your education your background. Go ahead. Go for it. Um, well first of all I just want to say thanks for having me on the show It's really a pleasure to meet you in this format. I've obviously known of you as well for a long time With your books. So anyway, it's a it's a real treat to to have this time with you But yeah, I am I finished my my doctorate and when after I my third child was born and at that point I realized, you know, I Just wrote a dissertation 300,000 words in five languages. I think I could write regular books. And so that's when I really started writing books and the first one was the the Pilgrim's Guide to Crackout that I did with George Weigel called City City of Saints And then we just kept moving I just kept moving what you know It seems like you probably have this experience where one book kind of leads to the next book that sort of you know little stones and hints get left along the way, but um And then I wrote this other book called nudging conversions Which was actually a really fun book to write because it was about helping to bring all the lessons I learned about bringing my family members back to the church And I think in many respects, I'm still developing that because I've taken those ideas and used them in my family I keep talking about this book and the ideas and I keep spanning expanding on it So maybe there'll be a an updated version down the road, but But from that, you know, I've had this interest in in women's issues. In fact, it's funny because I hated I didn't want to do women's philosophy at all I like I just didn't I would had no interest in it when I was a graduate student And it's ward off. I was like, I'm not gonna be one of those women that goes into women's issues You know part of that I realize now is because some of it is just it's not fun It's not doesn't translate. Well, it doesn't it's hard for people to read. You have to have a whole language You know a set of jargon that you already understand when you're going to read it in the first place And so I just I didn't want to do that and so anyway I've kind of gone through the back door in terms of getting into women's issues But of course, it's been an issue for me because I have so many friends that I I know were raised Catholic But they just don't get the church. They don't feel You know and the feel is the right word We I think we're dealing with an age of emotion right now and not of logic and that was you know Hard lesson for me to learn as a philosopher, you know that you can't reason your way Most people into the church that it's a lot of times it does these other extraneous things that bring them in So anyway, that's kind of where I just started launching into dealing with women with the first with ultimate makeover The experiences I learned about motherhood and how you know motherhood is actually supposed to be hard And as soon as I figured that out then it almost became easy because it's I think we we try and Pretend that it's not hard and that makes it even harder because we're figuring we constantly feel challenged And yet those challenges are precisely the things that we was women need to bring out the virtues in us so anyway from there the anti-marry the Marion option those books came about and Finally led to the theology of home projects that I'm working on both the books and the website Well, and so in between those books, so you first of all your dissertation 300,000 words, I mean the folks at tan the editors at tan. They know what that means, right? I mean, yeah Yeah, that is I mean I would guess the anti-marry expose is probably what about 70,000 Between 50 and 60. Okay. So picture 50 to 60 picture five or six of those, right? And then then you get you get to 300,000. I mean 300,000 I think I did a book. There's 300,000 words and I think it came out to about 700 pages. So that's So that that's long. What was what was your dissertation on? You know it was on Alistair Magantire and Jacques Maritain on human rights It's a fascinating topic because it got into so much history and Just the history of human rights, you know, all of these elements that I think we are very current say in fact I just published a piece at um World report that was kind of an extraction from it But um, otherwise, I haven't really done very much with it But it was really just a great Survey piece and I'm told that it has it's been cited Significantly, especially because it has never been published. Um, so it's been heartening to me that people are actually using it and finding ways to Butchers their own research. Um, you haven't sought to publish it. Yeah, you know, I haven't I I got kind of tired of it And you know, I had more kids and I just had other stuff to do and um, so no, I I haven't done anything with it yet Well, I'll ask you what people ask me and my wife. How many kids do you have? I just had my fifth that last February. So, yeah, a little caboose baby and uh, Anyway, so we and we homeschooled so I'm I'm busy homeschooling that therefore and then obviously taking care of the baby We do too. We do too. We homeschool as well. So the now you mentioned nudging conversions Are are you uh, so let me back up a little bit You went to franciscan university in steubenville for for your master's degree And I think as an undergrad, did you say university of oregon? I I finished at the university of oregon So kind of while I was at the university of oregon, I had this kind of a big conversion I was always a cradle Catholic but very poorly catechized and Um, when I was in college, I had there was this real tension. I think going on. Um, I was just this tug of war really between On the one hand, I had a grandmother who was very involved in the new age and I was very devoted to her And so I was probably exposed to a lot of things. I ought not to have been exposed to by her Um, and then I had um, you know, obviously the hookup culture and all of this happens at down college campuses That tug as well. And then um, there was the church and my my father had passed away When I was a teenager and so I think that after that point, you know, I didn't have anybody to rebel against I you know, my mom was grieving and she took over his business and she was busy and You know, it was just I was very independent at that point and I it was one of those things where I realized, you know I didn't need to I needed to answer my own questions and to find my own way and Um, that's really where the faith came in. I knew it was there. It was right. It was true Um, but again, it just took so long to get catechized This is before the internet so you couldn't just look things up and you were dependent upon Catholic bookstores and a lot of times the stuff they were selling was just awful and So anyway, it was a real challenge. I think to find the faith and yet, um, you know, thanks for to god I was finally ultimately led in the in the right direction with some help of some some great priests who Did point me in the right direction and some great women that helped me Learn about marrying consecration and and all of these things. So that was a real turning point in my life for sure Did that happen at that point while you're at the University of Oregon or Yeah, it was all it was all definitely going on I um, I would pray with these women every Thursday morning. Um, the rosary at that actually my high school the chapel at my high school They were all Moms of my friends that I had gone to high school with and so they I'm sort of the mascot. They were gracious and let me join them and um And so it was it was really their influence and an adoration chapel that I had access to these kinds of things that were just in My life in such a way that I could see Truth and reject these other things that were so, um, you know pressing upon me I think in other ways so And then from there I went to Steubenville Um, which was you can imagine going from the University of Oregon to franciscan university You know what a culture shock that was but a good one Yeah, well, I I can relate to this very much. I mean, this is a very similar story for me I was at the University of Pittsburgh And um, yeah, I you know, I think Football when I think of both of these were you at Oregon that they had a really good football team I believe they did Under chip kelly and not when I was there but um, yeah chip kelly was there for a long time and in a quarterback It was a star was Right, right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, um, last name. Yeah, mariota, right? Yeah, exactly. And joey herrington was there too. Herrington was there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah My mom is an avid duck fan. So yeah, she's she's ever saw this should be Horrified that I didn't remember these names better. But anyway, right, right, right But but so you're a lot like me then I mean I so I'm technically I guess I'm technically a revert But I tell people usually that I'm a convert Because I feel like I never really had the faith. Right. Yeah. No, that's exactly right. I think revert I think we need to come up with a new word for it. Paul. Maybe we can come up with something before Right conversation. So that well in my case I I went to Yeah, I went to sort of evangelical Christianity was even a Presbyterian for a time So for a time I was Protestant that probably went on so college I was agnostic kind of atheist left that way And then in graduate school became a Christian largely through evangelicals and then came back to the catholic church would have been 2000 2005 and I graduated undergrad 1990s. So there's a long period there with you. It sounds like I don't think you were you were ever Protestant, right? No, I never I mean if anything I was probably closer to new age than Protestant, but um, yeah, no, I never never left entirely Did you have did you have Catholic schools growing up or you and Catholic? Because you mentioned the chapel Yeah, no, I I went to that. I mean, that's the saddest part is that I you know, I went to Catholic schools almost all of my great schools or in the all of my high school years and um, you know, it was just very watered down or Um, kind of made to be peltry. In fact, I tell my children one of you know, one of my favorite memories Is going on spending some time in the chapel and the teacher Leading us in a meditation where we had to imagine that we were rocks in a brook Yeah, and this was considered, you know religion Education, so yeah, I had a lot of catching up to do It was spirituality Well, exactly So you're in there thinking about Jesus and the Eucharist and you're being exhorted to think about yourself as a rock as a rock Think about rocks Over you and yeah, no, it was bad It sounds like kind of have you have you been on any of those shows marcus grodi or anything like that? No, I haven't yeah. No, I haven't kind of I feel I I've been asked to do a few of these in the past And I feel I often decline I usually decline I think I've always declined because I'm afraid that that sharing some of this stuff would be embarrassing to certain people Yeah, that's the hard part is is is definitely that that element and you know, you obviously You know, I'm there's so many friends and people that I have in my life and in the past that I I still think a great deal of and so it is hard to share these things and yet they this really wasn't a huge obstacle To my faith was this this really important kind of cases and training so So that so then you go to franciscan franciscan university of stubenville. Is that right out of undergrad or? You know, I spent about a year I spent some time in france and then I just kind of needed to figure out what to do I I um I had this desire to do a master's degree in philosophy, but it was like out of nowhere You know, I don't and I'm sure you know I know as a holy spirit just needing to sort of put me in a catholic environment and train me With people my own age and you know, all of that had to happen, but um Yeah, but it was just so random Like what you you just did a degree in history from the university of oregon And now you want to move to ohio to this place nobody's heard of you know, so it took a while I think to Really wade through that and see that all the doors were closing on my other options And this was the one that just kept opening and so that's that's when I ended up there And even my phd, you know, when I finished my master's degree. I was like, oh, I'm done with academics. I'm never going back You know, and then the next thing you know, I'm doing a doctor at catholic you and just kept doing it But by and large, you know Much of it was motivated by the fact that I knew I had had such a bad education that I wanted to be able to educate others And certainly my children With all of these pieces that I just hadn't had Um, so it was a great way to catch up and then you know, just keep going Um with a degree Did you have a particular mentor or somebody at franciscan? By the way, you're you went through the same program that my son is in now. That's so great. Yeah Yeah, great program loves it. Absolutely loves it Anybody in particular stand out there, you know, the one person I think that was probably the most formative even though I didn't spend that much time with him was my spiritual director father dan petit He's not there now. He's um, I think he's in texas right now, but um anyway, he I know one of my first times to to go to confession and visit with him He said, you know, you need to spend an hour and adoration every day and um, you know, I just sort of laughed I was like, are you like I don't have an hour. Just what are you talking about? To pretend you're a rock. Yeah Um, so anyway, he um, he said no, I think you can find the time and um I did find the time and it was absolutely transforming. I think it was that time every day every day. Um, yeah One parent to another with a bunch of kids Is easier to do when you're single. Oh, man. Isn't that the truth? Yeah And and that was kind of what I was mindful of too was this was going on was just a realization that I didn't have kids You know, I did have full time class. I was actually working full time As well, I was going at mass spraying the rosary and I was like really I have to add this hour every day And but I lived close enough to campus that um, it just became manageable And it was really a habit I had up until I got until I had children actually Um And it was great and I think that that was really transforming because I was I learned how to pray. Um, you know, I learned little things like You're a lot warmer in a church if you're on your knees Then if you're sitting down and you know, I learned that my knees got tougher I could kneel longer and you know, all of these things that When you've got an hour to fill you sort of figure out how to pray better And rather than just going on with a book and kind of keeping yourself entertained So anyway, that I think that was really the best piece of advice I ever got my entire life And um, you know, I look forward to the day eventually when I can get back to it That's the beautiful little chapel, right at franciscan Puttiyancola, I think right? Yeah, name for st. Francis where francis was it is and you know when you're in a place like that It's just so much easier to pray because it's beautiful and it's sort of dripping with history in terms of the representation of what it was and in Italy to st. Francis and Yeah, it was just a really amazing place of prayer. In fact, I actually talked to uh, father scanlan at one point God rest his soul at a wedding. I said, I want those plans and he said, I'll get you those plans and Anyway, I never got the plans so the plans for the fair chapel for the chapel. Yeah I was at some point want to build another one. Well, nice. Oh, yeah, great idea. That'd be great I mean, every yeah, every calendar. I know Yeah So so you went so after that so you you finished your dissertation there and your dissertation in 2013 your phd 2013, is that what you said? Yeah, my well, then I went to cath, thank you and yeah finished that I was kind of a Securities route because at one point I left and I went to university of virginia and then I I stopped all together and Um, and then I moved to italy and I worked as a journalist for zenith news over in rom for a couple of years where I met my husband um, and then um, but yeah, I finally Just was abd and had to get that knocked out. So got that finished. Yeah, so you worked for zena. I did Okay, is your husband italian? No, he's american He was actually teaching at the university of dalas at their rom campus when when we met um, but he had been a monk Um before long before we had met he was with the the benedictans there at norcia helped found them and Left after four years and then we met and um Yeah, so now we're back. You know, this is this is interesting So he was with the benedictans at norcia Which of course is the inspiration for rod dwears the benedict option, right? Right, and and you coined the term the maryon. I know there was some irony that and I published it with tan And I was actually hoping they would put it under the saint benedict imprint, but they put it under tan But they of course are saint benedict press too. So but yeah, there's lots of uh, I think um similar parallels and similar paths Well, so among those books that that's one of the ones that I wanted to hit So you're okay. You're you're kind of history here as an author Then then okay, you did the dissertation 300 thousand words. You didn't publish that So what was your first book then was it the weigel but the book with george weigel? Was it ultimate makeover? You know, it was uh first the weigel book and um We did we did that one together was actually something I wanted to write before right after john polis second died And um, and then I thought you know that Ship is sailed like people aren't interested in crack out right now And it was only then when I found out that world ether was going to be in crack out that I thought I should do this again. So I asked george about it. And then it's when we decided to to write it together. Um So when did that come out? 2014 maybe no it must have been 2015 And then yeah while I was doing that I had this idea for for nudging conversions because just from my own experience it was super easy to write and just really A fun book um, you know going into ways that you can help bring your loved ones back to the church But without using apologetics necessarily find different ways and approaches and things ways to talk to people um To basically love them back into the church You know in a way that works instead of feeling like you're beating your head against the wall Which I spent a lot of time doing that so it was very much a book about um, you know trial and error for me and What worked and and what what didn't um All the six said what that that people will a lot more often listen to witnesses, right? Then I forget the I forget the quote That um, then then um the apologists and teachers, but first you need to be a witness. I'm I'm goofing up the quote It's a nice. I just destroyed it But but but in a way that's that's what you're doing there, right? You're sort of modeling the faith More than right Yeah, no and that was absolutely at the core of it You know when I finally started realizing that my relationships were getting more tenuous because I was trying to cataclyse my family And teach them and bring them back to the church Oh, interesting That's actually when I when I realized I just needed to stop All together because this wasn't showing good fruit. Um, and then that that was actually was really transforming because then I And I just thought I'm gonna be a better daughter. I'm gonna be a better sister. I'm gonna be a better friend And that's gonna be my focus, you know, I just thought god was like you're just not made to evangelize just stop it Um, but instead he was actually teaching me kind of through the back door what to do and that I think that's really the key is Um, is to be a better friend a better daughter a better father a better sister, you know Any all of those relationships and dive into that and then When people are ready, that's when they know that they can trust you. They know that most witnessed your life They've witnessed your love, you know, all of that. So then it gets easy Once all those pieces are already in place Sure, sure So, okay, so you did, um Then your your first major book then would have been What so nudging conversions that wasn't through tan? No, um Nudging conversions and ultimate makeover were both done with dynamic catholic. Um with matthew kelly mathew I had actually worked for matthew years and years ago when I actually when I was in stevenville Um, and so another publisher was actually going to take nudging conversions. Um, and they just kept sitting on the contract and Finally I sent Ultimate makeover to matthew, but I I just it was just an outline so I sent him the the whole manuscript of nudging and um, just said, you know, this is this is taken by somebody else, but I'm Um, I just want you to get a sense of what my writing looks like. Um, and then, you know, by the end of Two hours later, he wrote back to me and said I'll take both of them if I can have them And so I got in touch with the publisher and they were like, ah, we've got plenty of books like this So, um, I ended up publishing with him um at that stage And and so you you're worried of that point about or at least you had been a one point about writing books that seem too much About women, right? Yeah, yeah But you just kind of I mean, this is the way it is right you end up doing some books like that and some not like that Yeah, right. I mean it's just kind of the way it naturally develops. It seems that it's been a way for you Yeah, no, exactly. And most of my especially I've written a lot of articles in the meantime too and very few of them are about that But yeah, I've definitely ventured. I think because I finally figured out what works with women Um, so it just got a lot easier, but um, what is that? You know, it's it's very obvious very simple. It's magazines. It's visuals It's being providing things to women that that they can identify with so they can see themselves in Um, so this is what we've done with theology of home both one and two Um, they're highly illustrated But we're really using them to to convey our own ideas to convey the ideas of the church Um to convey the ideas that are really the desire of every woman's heart But what we've seen, you know the way that we've seen this work the best of course is and I I saw this so much with anti-marry research Is you know magazines and soap operas oak breath, you know the fashion world all of these Um outlets are vogue, right teen vogue. Exactly all I emailed about that. It's it's astonishing where teen vogue is I mean, it's it's just Yeah, no, it's awful Yeah, and all of these are just a passageway To you know spread both the occult's marxism All the the the worst parts of the sex sexual revolution All of that is just being you know sprayed scattershot through the through the culture But it's done in such a way that it feels like you can trust these people, you know, look at someone like whenith peltrow and her goop Program, I mean it's it's it's this is someone that people are think that she could be their best friend. Um, so there's a sense of Engagement and people feeling Kind of an association and a trust with with these women and this is why they've been so successful And I think as catholics We've kind of done the opposite. We have all these amazing ideas, but we haven't we've been very top heavy We haven't found a way to to get them down to The people in the pew And so it's it's that's been a real problem. I think and this is so this is why you know We've kind of shifted gears a little bit with theology of home Because I think once you are in sort of a community and you find a place That's going to give you feed you ideas that you appreciate then it just gets easier to form a person But also animate them and help them want to go out into the world and do more and so It's been really amazing just even in our community of people that we know have read the books the books actually the first ones And I think the fourth printing Really? Wow. Well, yeah, there's a theology of the home one and two Right and so what when did when did two just came out two just came out in september exactly um so one um came out in the september of 2019 and then two came out in 2020 And then we started this website this aggregate site before actually even both books came out um, we just aggregate content from secular as well as catholic sites And you know every day we have about eight articles that we present and um, we've got what's the web? What's the website? It's theology of home.com. Okay all one word theology of the home.com Yeah, just theology of home not know the exactly um And the co-author is is noel marrying noel marrying exactly so Tell us a little bit about how you connected with her So noel and I actually went to stupendville together. We were we were called the philosophy girls There were noel and me and another young woman named natalie the three of us were in that program together and um for one year and so we were great friends because we just were together all the time and um Noel and I were both from the west coast so we were to both sort of had similar backgrounds and I could tell you stupendville is very different from So I I spent a lot of time in california in fact what we're gonna be there I think for two or three weeks again And um, you know, I I like stupendville. It's very very very very different from the west I'm actually from western pa. So I I like going to stupendville, which is and what it's what they call the panhandle It's between it's between west virginia Ohio and pennsylvania you can literally be in pittsburgh in 45 minutes Which is closer than where I am in grove city, which is pennsylvania, which is north of pittsburgh And it's right across the river from west virginia And but it is really it's an old mill town. I mean it's like right out of I don't know people remember this move from the 70s the deer hunter Yeah, yeah, it still has that feel has that smell I don't I don't mean that necessarily in a bad way right in a way. It's kind of a throwback kind of neat I mean you could be the last time I was there. I guess a few months ago I'm I'm out of light and there's a guy and then like an old 75 buick with a dead deer across the front of it All right, you know Across the front of yeah It's it's it's old school. Very very different. So no else on the west coast as well Too us. So we actually spent a lot of time in pittsburgh. I love pittsburgh. I spent a great city It's amazing. I I had so much fun hunting down old bookstores and Heinz chapel and you know, amazing I married in Heinz chapel. Did you really congratulations? It's such a beautiful May 22nd 1993 nice nice my wife programmed by my um My briefcase with I have an old briefcase, you know, oh five two two nine three, right? There's no way you can forget it That's great. That's great So anyway, yeah, we were both from the west coast So we we definitely had that, you know culture shock They're in subonville together But um them she actually got married and went on to have six kids and I Did not get married and I just kept traveling and moving and um, so somehow I think I was living in Italy We must have connected through social media or something and um, that's when we started having a friendship again, but um It was only when I started theology of home.com which was actually had a different name at that point but um, I asked her to to write for me and she wrote me an article on um black turtlenecks women wearing black turtlenecks and um Interesting and so from there I gotta tell my wife about this I still love it. It's great. Um So anyway, she just kept writing and writing and writing and she had no idea she could write and um, so now she's actually She has her own book coming out May with tan called um awake not woke And it's excellent We'll have to get you a real copy, but um Hey, wait, I love that awake not woke. Yeah, it's it's excellent And she's just a force, uh, just really very so sharp and so gifted and um Anyway, we were actually just out there A lot two weeks ago. Um doing photographs for our next book theology of home three and um visiting friends and doing some speak I did some speaking out there, but um Anyway, so yeah, it's just been amazing to see, you know, how much this relationship that we fostered, you know 20 years ago how Much fruit it's bearing now because we already know each other, you know We work from obviously i'm in virgin issues in california So it's hard to work at a distance, but um because I think we have a steam friendship But just everything seems to to work really smoothly and we compliment each other very well Sure so the A couple books that I that I really want to hit the I thought the marion option was a great idea So I mean you you did write that as like a as like a follow-up to the benedict option Right, or did you already have it in mind? Oh, no, not at all um Yeah, you know what happened was I was actually really intrigued by the benedict option and um I I gave a talk about it at acton university and um while I was there, you know, I was researching and I thought This is great, but Mary's done everything better Benedict was awesome and you know, I have so much respect for him I used to live right around the corner from his cell a little chapel in Interest and your husband was part of it part of them exactly but um, you know, if you're talking about evangelization Mary did it better if you're talking about dealing with Islam Mary's done it better if you're talking about, you know crumbling Culture and Building culture. Mary's done it better. Um, so it just seemed kind of a no-brainer and it was really interesting because it Dreyer's book came out. Um, there were a couple others one by Esalen. Maybe and then another one probably by Shabu and um None of them mentioned our lady in any way Um, so it was really interesting to see You know to go back and look at this very big picture of who she is in the different ways in which She's been so instrumental throughout the culture and and really fun too because of course, I knew how much um What a role she played in philosophy, especially for someone like Albert the great who's that, you know, murmur Prumer the tale is that he had actually some kind of Special infused knowledge from her and that was actually taken away at some point Before his death, but it was restored for like 24 hours or something so that he could defend Thomas Aquinas and then he went back to his, you know, state of Mental incapacity so anyway, it was just I've not heard that Yeah, no, it was just all these amazing stories and devotion or, you know, someone like dunn scotis Tremendous devotion to our lady and And then of course just european culture, you know, you spend enough time in europe You know the just how much of it really is inspired by our lady everything from you know, all the Notre-Dame's Um, you know all the arts all the paintings All of these things are really a reflection of of her and I think rather than rather than benedict, right? Not benedict There are mary statues everywhere. There aren't very many benedict statues. There aren't many And you mentioned tony esselin and chapu. So I think I think tony's book was out of the ashes, right? Exactly. I remember the really Snooty kind of snotty Review in the washington post by jamey smith at calvin college Who we've had here at grove city college? He's a good guy But but but it was it was just a it was just a really mean review It was like a triple book review of tony tony esselin's book chapu and roger air all three of them together And he but but so the mary an option came out at the same time, right about the same time Yeah, we got it out right before the 100-year anniversary of the um Fatima actually so it was 2017. Okay May actually so I think it was maybe because I had all of those books maybe right before I turned my manuscript in um, but I didn't um, so it was yeah, it was a few months later So you're averaging about a book a year At this point it's this kind of I mean I I know this well It's kind of where you end up right in a way you get all these ideas and people start coming to you with ideas and And in a way you're you're kind of people think it's glamorous, right? No, you're once it's exciting at first and you've done a couple books and then after a while I mean we wouldn't do it if we didn't enjoy it, right? But but I mean sometimes you're literally fighting off projects I got I have five books that I'm working on right now and and I have Really one that should be a six that I ought to be doing and I told somebody no But it's it's kind of there's so many good projects so many different ideas Yeah, and when you're doing one a year you almost feel like it's hard to dedicate promotion time to it because A friend of ours like Al Cresta or somebody wants to have you on the show They have a hard time keeping up with whatever your latest book is, right? But but but you did you did the anti-marry expose next was it 2018-2019? It came directly after it Actually, well in between them. I did marrying consecration for children, which is actually so much Option so that one was thrown in But yeah, then I did the anti-marry Exposed because I had done a chapter in the marrying option about are we in the age of Mary or the anti-marry? I already had already been thinking about it and it was at that point that tan said, you know, maybe you should do a bigger book on this Um So I spent probably the most amount of time on that book because I've spent on really any book Anthony very exposed. Yeah, there's about two years of um of research in that and um, you know, it's just painful research You know so well how dark stuff is and um, and you know, you get to a point like I had to make the executive decision Um, I just didn't want to put as much of that stuff in there I you I've kind of got little dollops of this awful stuff here and there But I just didn't want it to be a book that people just felt like every page was agonizing because it's agonizing enough as it is Um to pull, you know pull out all these examples Um, it's probably a wise thing to do. Um, and then of course the second half the book is is much brighter I think and yes hopeful then the first dark path for sure I was looking for my if I could have found it quickly for my marginalia in here where I have a couple comments on You know, I have to stop reading this I mean this is And you know, I I did a book with tan called the devil and carl marx. I mean, it's right You know, you have the stack of material That's just it's just you know, it's awful. It's dark and you you have to drop it and walk away You don't want somebody in the middle of your book, right to you know, do a nose dive off the roof, right? right And and some of it is uh, you know gross Right. I mean gross and Things I I literally could not put in the book because it was just so illicit. I mean it was awful From leading feminists, which tells you something about feminism, right? A lot and and and the and the material with um, Jezebel and some of the some of the pagan and demonic and You just kind of crossing yourself as you And over yeah, yeah, so when I say it's it's a hard read Well, it's an easy read because it's well written but but it's it's it can be painful to get through Yeah, no, I have had people tell me that, you know, I just had to put it down and walk away from it Yeah, yeah, and and the subtitle is rescuing the culture from toxic femininity Which brings me to and I'm watching the clock. We gotta we keep this under an hour um, that brings me to the fact that this book was Censored right by facebook and instagram both Correct. Uh, yeah, both of those. Yeah, because they're same platform um And is it maybe the is do you think perhaps what got it flagged was the phrase toxic femininity was Oh, I'm almost sure that had something to do with it. So yeah, no both those platforms um Stop selling it on their marketplace and then um, what happened is I just put a picture of it on on social media And people just went and bought the book. I mean, it's it's truly been the best thing for this book. It's just right I knew it would be Now you need the New York Times to trash it. I mean that are you a straight to the best seller. Exactly. So um So that happened and then but because everybody was buying it went up to 242 or something on amazon's site. Well, probably the highest I ever got on amazon Well, it had but then you know what happened was they actually took the buttons down so people couldn't purchase it They ran out of copies But you could still buy it from a third seller, but there were no buttons that said, you know Purchase an hour will be delivered in march or whatever like you just couldn't buy it from them Literally, even though the publisher knew they had already put in a new order Um, so they were tan was dealing with them trying to get them to to fix it And it would they would put it back up for like an hour and then they would take it down again. Um, so So that was an amazon Censoring it or anything. It wasn't censoring it. But what was curious is it, you know, it was number one on feminist books I think what they were trying to do was make sure it didn't get to a best seller list Um, I don't think they wanted it going into their top 100 list I think they saw that this was you know being was an explosive situation on an older book and it wasn't an authentic You know best selling situation. So I think you know, I I could be totally mistaken Maybe it was just a fluke but the fact that you've got, you know Facebook and instagram both Tinkering with it. Um, and there's something going on at amazon, you know, this is a two-year-old book It's not like this just came out and um, so it was all very suspicious because it was the sat sunday and the week after the inauguration as well, so You know raises all kinds of A time of you know volatility and anger and a lot of people censoring people that they disagreed with Exactly it's sort of an acting with impunity too because now, you know, biden's president and I'm worried about Um, the cancel culture so much. So yeah, so it's been great for the book. Um, it's been really interesting It was very interesting to see who reached out to me in terms of media. Um, you know, of course Um, bright bark covered it daily wire, you know, all kinds of catholic media But um, it was I was rush of times featured me I was on the front of rush of times with the video series or a tv show Um, I never thought that would happen right never. I never thought that would happen Um, and then I did polish uh newspaper and then hungarian radio So it was interesting that you have this eastern block that was really interested in it in terms of just getting right, right You know people that really deal dealt with censorship much more than you know, we certainly ever have so All of my translations of my books have been mainly in the eastern block Now that's because they deal with jump all the second ronald reagan communism and so forth But still from a kind of cultural viewpoint and a religious viewpoint. I mean, it's it's the eastern block countries Poland and so forth that that just seemed more receptive to faith Yeah, absolutely. You know kind of went through the you know, the crucible there on on censorship the um So but amazon by and large has been good to you, right? You have Yeah, no, and we haven't since that week there there hasn't been any further problems. So um Yeah, they they've they've you know, they haven't pulled a ryan anderson with me on terms of not selling it in certain ways Right, right Center when harry met sally right they yanked it So you could buy mine conf if you'd like to on amazon, but you can't get ryan anders dr ryan anderson's book on transgenderism Right. Nope. We can't get it. So I love the fact that you said it was the number one bestseller among books on feminism Oh, it was amazing because the book that was right underneath it was Um, this book that's actually an almost naked black woman But all of that the artwork around it is completely our lady of guadalupe. I mean, it's just sick how Just the amazing contrast Between these books at one point it was sandwiched between that book and another book called i hate men and um, you know so Those were the the kinds of things I got a lot of screenshots out because it was just they were just priceless Well, if you you need to write next, um exposing the culture of toxic masculinity No, probably they'd probably promote it. They would they would in fact You said it was interesting who reached out to you. Did you get anybody? So despite the fact that the russia times and eastern bloc Did you get anybody from the liberal left who was who was sympathetic who reached out? Probably not right. No, not at all. Um And you know, I don't think that's in any way an accident I mean, that's basically I mean the book anti-marry is their playbook. This is what they've done with women for 50 years. It's uh The exact same talking points the exact, you know, the patriarchy like all this stuff is just so um Deep in terms of the way their way of thinking that it would actually really take someone a real conversion and I have heard that That's happening. Um One woman I just Heard of she she was having I think after the election She was having some sort of political conversion Then she read my book and the next thing, you know, she's praying the rosary like she'd never she hadn't prayed it since her first communion and so I'm hearing amazing stories even You know, lesbians who are leaving the lifestyle and and uh, you know, almost to a one people that read it Say, you know, something just clicked. I just got it and um, so I think that there's something about it You know, one one of the earliest readers said when you see the anti-marry you can't unsee it It's just everywhere and so yeah, I think to to have some sympathies on the other side Um, would be great and but it would take a lot of intellectual honesty And I don't think that's really what they're after at this point I think it really is motivated by power and control Isn't amazing though how they they don't reach out like like you hear all the time That the other side wants dialogue But but but I but I never get emails from any of them or or I'll write an op-ed piece Based on a book and I'll write it right down the middle as much as I can right and send it to the washington post or the new york times But but but but but if the overall point is a point that they don't want to make right They just and the editors will even be nice. They'll they'll respond to but they'll they'll come up with a million reasons not to run it Yeah, and they they are so closed-minded. It's it's really remarkable and and they preach diversity and tolerance But but they don't do that at all and you would think You mentioned Breitbart I was reading the other day bill mars latest comments on Breitbart And you know bill marr can be vulgar and all and he was in this moment too But he was really lighting up people on his side for the cancel culture And and and the things that he was saying was was spot-on But other than occasionally Guys like him and a few others they just sort of swim along with their side They never sting their own right. They never condemn their own They they just they just go after the other side and they never reach out You think there'd be a nice moment of solidarity right from a berry weiss type Well, she's somebody who's reached out to the other side right and would say hey, you know I'm on the other side politically, but what they've done to you is wrong here But you just you don't hear me Nothing like that. So and I guess that you know, I certainly wasn't expecting it But um, I think that just the more the tragedy of it is is the fact that it is such a tight Ideology that people are just really trapped in and they've got their Their different points that they think are right and anything that goes against that, you know It really is a dogma of sorts. Um, you know, it's everything even a couple weeks ago Madonna was blamed, you know, I have twitter feed something to the effect of kill the patriarchy Um, apparently she's upset because they've stymied her career or something. You know, she's only worth $850 million. Um, so it's really based terrible discrimination there. Yeah, it's just terrible discrimination. Yeah, she's really silenced The Madonna, uh, one of the points you make in an anti-marry expose I read this and I think I said to my wife. I said, hey, yo, listen to this, right? Yeah, um, you talk about how she's taken the name Madonna, right? When everybody thinks of Madonna They don't think of the Blessed Mother. They think of what's her real name louisia louis, uh, you know, it's a very I could have told you 10 years ago, but right, right? So they think of her and then you pointed out I had I didn't know this but one of the um, a black singer that was now referred to as the black Madonna Of all things, right? At least in some Some corners. Yeah, so are they of chest appropriation of that title? Yeah, all things. That's where the culture is Where Madonna isn't the Blessed Mother, but everybody thinks of Of louis jaconi, you know, like a virgin tour, right? Yeah Yeah, no just incredible very subtle um, just Efforts to sort of chip away at the culture and really take take everything. Um, even you know down to pink hats Those awful pink hats, you know, well, who wears a pink hat a little baby wears a pink hat so that you know, the girl You know, just everything is stolen in very very subtle ways, but it's it's all distorted and and gruesome You know just the corruption of innocence too. So yeah, it's really sad the uh One more thing on the censorship thing So I wrote a piece on this called the devil in facebook for crisis magazine Right, that's great. They could put up a link to it or something But they also have censored their facebook did among the tan books a a book for for children On the stations of the cross And that one when sarah malmato of tan books reached out to me And so I had known about your book first your years kind of got it first And then there was maybe another and then I think my book the devil and carl marx and then and then I said any others And she said oh, yeah stations of the cross for children And and and the actual quote on this the actual I've got the screenshot right here. No, it's not there. Where is it? Yeah, let's see. This is beautiful. I've got to read this It says ad can't run ads must not contain shocking Sensational inflammatory or excessively violent content read our sensational content policy And then underneath that it has a picture of a cover of the book stations of the cross And the tan ad says this fully illustrated version of the traditional stations of the cross Contains new meditations by children's author and elicit the name of the children's author And that's it and and for people who think that well, maybe maybe the cover is really, you know, really gruesome Right, maybe jesus, maybe it's like a shot from mel Gibson's movie, right? It's a cartoon and and the corpus jesus isn't even reading What could be so inflammatory And sensational about a book the children's book on the stations of the cross which makes me wonder So, you know, you could see that, you know, maybe they're targeting your book because of the word femininity, right? My book, I don't know because of marx I I don't know but a book on the children's book on the stations of the cross of all things That's got to make you wonder if in that case they're going after tan If they're going after tan books generally if they're going to start going after christian publishing houses, you know, catholic publishing houses And maybe they're coming up with excuses Um, you to just to just go at the publisher generally Yeah, no, and it could very well be and I think that that's really, you know, it's one thing for my book to get Banned so to speak, but I'm still selling a ton of it But yeah, if we get locked out entirely, you know, if these things tan can't sell on amazon that, you know, that's It's going to force a lot of of redirection and advertising and all those kinds of things So in the end it may not be the worst thing, but it's a tragic thing to think about You know, we would get to that point that that could happen. It's important too I've talked to the tan books guys about this zack flannock and others who's wonderful And the you know, so to an extent well, you've got the backup You can go to tan books website and you can order it there But most people go to amazon and and and also too The beauty of amazon is if you go there and if you order carry one of your books like the anti mary exposed Underneath it'll list other books by carry grass, right? But you know, many of which are tan. Oh, right and and in fact somebody Might buy ryan anderson's book on whatever and underneath it'll say you might also like and then it'll have some of your books Listed down there and all of which were downs back to tan and helps sells books for tan So so it's a good thing to really Fight to keep amazon open It's I mean, it's great if people go both places to order books But but it's but we we don't ever want this to happen to amazon Right where it starts censoring our books. That's not a good thing. Yeah. No, it's not a good thing at all So Well, we got a wrap up. How much time do we have left here? Not much a couple minutes. Can you just tell us If it's okay if it's not confidential or whatever what what you're working on next what what projects? Well, I'm not working on five books like you. Um, I could be but unfortunately I just I've had to really step away from writing my family just needs so much of my time. Um The home schooling and everything but um, we are working on a follow-up to theology of home It's actually going to be a kind of a different format. Um, and it's going to be on the theme of um at the sea is the the topic Um, so it'll be kind of a meditation on you know, beach life and all of that As well as much deeper thoughts on on the ocean and water and whatnot Um, and then I you know, I've just I've been working a lot on our website. Um theology of home.com We really want to add a lot of original start adding original content to it And then we have a store with it that has been really fun to develop because it's all catholic lifestyle products Um that I think are are having doing a great job of evangelizing Really in their own right. We have these candles that look like soy candles that you can buy at any gift shop Women's gift shop and yet um if you get them blessed you can give them to a friend and They will you know serve as sacramentals in their home. So um, we're really working on building in that that aspect too Because I think that catholics haven't done a good job and in this area generally You know, we have a lot of products, but we don't have things that sort of fill this gap of lifestyle products like someone like a magnolia home or um, you know, even something like um, martha steward or whatnot So this is a real area that I I think is it's just a gap and um, so we've been working on that because it's just It's been really fun And I think It's nice to be able to have products that people get excited about and can give to just about anyone And still know that they're going to be effective in fighting the culture And can you get that at theology of home? theologyofhome.com exactly good good So if people want to follow you they can follow you there. Is that the main spot? That's the best place Um, instagram is probably the the place on social media that I keep up the best Assuming you're not shut down on instagram. I know exactly so and we do we have do have a subscriber's Option at theology of home because and in light of that in fact I had a very wise man tell me before we started, you know set up subscriptions because You could get locked out and that's the only way you're going to be able to communicate with people So we have that option and of course there's little bonuses that come with subscribing as well. So, um, yeah, that's Definitely something we we've been developing So follow you there go to amazon check out your books there go to tan blocks I think I'll put down your books there. Yep. Yeah, and if people want books autographed or signed to Especially to a friend or mother or somebody. Um, they can order them from us to at theologyofhome.com. Well, that's great. That's good Yeah, well, great. Well, thank you very much. You're doing amazing work Doing the Lord's work and you know, I knew this hour would fly and you've you're an easy interview And uh, and easy to read too. Well, I mean agonizingly easy to read Just get through to the second half. That's all. Yeah. Yeah, that by the way, that is so true You got you got to work your way through the middle part of that book to reach the light at at the end Yeah, it's worth it. But uh, but thanks for all you do and and um, our friend Mallory We should give a shout out to our friend. Absolutely god bless Mallory Miller. Absolutely. So so thanks a lot. Take care Yeah, you too. Thank you. And uh, everybody. Thanks for joining us We'll we'll be back again next month with another episode of this podcast. So until then we'll see you. Bye. Bye