 How's everyone doing today? Good. Awesome. My name is Maria Madarelli. I'm really excited to talk about agile marketing. I'm curious, how many people are using agile outside of IT today? Okay, so about half the room, how many people think it's kind of intriguing and would like to hear more? Okay, cool. So today we'll talk about agile marketing, specifically what are the benefits of applying agile to marketing and some specific techniques on how this works. Given that a lot of us are familiar with agile use in IT, but there are so many other possibilities when we get other departments. My question for you to start off here is, how would your business change if you had vertical increase in revenue? Can you imagine how happy your boss would be, what your company would be like if you had vertical increase? Would that be amazing? Yeah. Right? So all these studies about agile helping people get to market faster, having better products, meeting customer needs more, what if we applied that to marketing where the revenue comes in? What if we started to take those techniques and said, okay, how could we get a benefit on the customer side where there's that dollar exchange? So today what we'll talk about is how you can understand more about taking agile outside of IT specifically applied to marketing. The techniques and strategies that can help to rapidly grow your business, so whatever product or service you have, agile marketing can be applied in just about any industry. And then we'll also share a case study on a client that we've worked with that we got more than 300% growth in six months and over 780% growth in a year. And then also share some entry steps to how you can start to apply agile marketing. So in just afternoon we won't be able to go too deep, but there's some other resources I can share with you if you'd like to learn more. Does that sound good? Yeah. All right. A little bit more about my background. I'm a certified Scrum trainer with a Scrum Alliance and my background started with traditional project management. So I had the opportunity to work in these environments where we're planning out large projects, we had multiple years. Has anyone else been in that environment? It can be challenging, right? Things aren't accurate, things change. And when I discovered agile, I never wanted to go back, right? It's very hard to go back to a traditional approach after you've been using agile. And about, I'd say about three years ago, I started really looking at how can we expand agile outside of IT? What are other ways to do this? Specifically working with not-for-profit groups, looking at how agile could be applied in different ways. And one of the things that I think is so exciting is looking at agile applied marketing. And my major in college was actually marketing, so it's this interesting full circle that's happened, going through this IT and project management path to come back and then apply that to marketing. I'd like to encourage you to tweet throughout the session. Please feel free to throw up an ad room at Aurelie and throughout the session maybe hashtag agile outside of IT and for the conference. So what is it that organizations want? Organizations want to be truly agile, right? You hear about all the scaling, you hear about organizations looking at how do we get to market faster? What are the things that could set a company apart from all the other people in their industry? So the goal is really true agility. But my question for you is how can an organization truly be agile if the only department that is agile is IT, right? So we see that all the time and we've heard of agile outside of IT both. Where is it being done? Is it in the HR department and the marketing? There's other areas where it can be just as effective and really help provide that horsepower throughout the entire organization. So it's not just developing things but now how do we get it to market faster? Has anyone seen the version one surveys, state of agile surveys every year? Yeah, it's great because they have such great feedback from the community, lots of statistics. And one of the questions that they ask is why do companies adopt agile? And a couple of the items that hit this list are accelerating product delivery and improving business and IT lineup. So how can we do that when we still stay so focused in the IT space? So one of the things that we'll talk about is as we accelerate product delivery, how can we now that we're ready to go to market have that same speed, that same agility and not just go into then the traditional marketing campaign, right? And then also how can we get a common language across departments so that we have people that fully understand that throughout the organization? One of the things that I found really interesting over the last couple of years is across all of the places that I've done training or been at conferences or engaged with people in the community, the challenges that people have seem to be pretty similar. Has anyone else noticed that? Has anyone else been in different geographic locations and you can see different industries? And a lot of the challenges are pretty similar at the core of people trying to use agile to do it effectively. And so one of the things that we want to do with agile marketing is really have small internet changes bring that same mindset forward and then help these other departments to have those same benefits that we see in product development. So as an internet process for fast results and sustainable growth, we'll get with agile marketing and focusing on the customer relationships that carry the most value and organizing your marketing into channels along with creating systems and messaging that can make your ideal customers. Now that might sound like common sense as you hear it but we're talking about truly focusing on the people that could benefit from what it is that you're offering. So I've got a question here. If this was the revenue of a company do you think that this is pretty good? What do you think? Good, not so good, average? We're missing all the context, right? Hard to say. Now when they started, that's a pretty good growth score at the beginning, right? So I had a couple little peaks, mini valleys. It's not too bad. So it looks like it's going up toward the end as a trend so they can be considered positive. But if you step back and look at that being over the course of a year adding a little more context that's really kind of stagnant, right? No growth. This is a company that we were working with over the last couple of years and what we found was that they had some things that they were doing marketing-wise and it worked to an extent but then it only got them so far, right? They had this big leap and then it kind of went a little bit up and down but for the most part consistent. And most companies want to grow faster than that but not even that. Most companies need to expand and grow more than that, right? Because we have such a dynamic industry out there with technology, completely revolutionizing industries. So one of the things that we did is we started applying Agile to their marketing approach and this was the growth pattern. And I was telling Nick who helped me co-found the Agile Marketing Academy I was like, I need a more clear chart because you can't really read the numbers. He's like, yeah, but that's an exact screenshot from the revenue. So it's literally a screenshot right out of what the sales were. So what we found was there's two main challenges that most companies have with their marketing approach. So the first thing that we saw was that a lot of companies don't truly connect on the message to market match. So they have, here's our benefits. Hey, this could help you. Don't you want this too? And what about you, right? So they have like a great pitch but it's not truly resonating with people. And the other thing that we found is that marketing campaigns tend to run so long that there's really not time taken to adapt or make any changes. Now when you put these two things together you have a nice level plateau, right? So imagine if you could truly connect with people that needed your product and also if you were doing these short iterative cycles and you were able to tweak that messaging until you really got it to resonate. This company that we were working with was a coffee company and they sold acid free coffee. Now what might be some of the benefits that you would pitch to someone to buy acid free coffee? What do you think? Better for you. Do we have any coffee drinkers in here? Alright, quite a few. Do we have anyone that knows coffee drinkers? Do you know anyone who, if they didn't have your coffee or you didn't have your coffee it would be a very different day? Yes? Quite a fair, right? So imagine if you were told you cannot drink coffee anymore or imagine that person in your life that you care about so dearly was told that they could not drink coffee anymore. What do you think would be the effect? Is that easy to accept? No? Why not? You're the first one to notice? Yeah, basically a lot of people who drink coffee love their coffee, right? It's a habit. It's every morning and then you get into the science of the stimulus and whatever else is behind that but basically people that love coffee usually love coffee and they want it every day. Now imagine that you have someone or yourself possibly who you have that brand that you get every day, right? You go to Starbucks every day and you have your home-grown thing, you know, the specific beans imported from wherever, right? So you have the flavors, you have the brand that you're consistent with. How easy is it for you, someone to get you to switch and they said, hey, this is just a little bit healthier for you. You want this option? Hey, is that easy? It depends on the price. Depends on the price? Depends on the price? So your price will be? Partially, yes. Partially? Okay. So normally I would imagine not many people would stop their daily routine just because something is just a little bit healthier. So when we try to promote something based on, hey, here's some general benefits. Here's how for everyone in this room, hey, don't you all want to be healthier? That's not necessarily going to truly connect. So who is it that that would do the network? Let's talk a little bit more about how to find that perfect customer. When you think about who's going to use your products, traditionally, you know, in the software development team, we're thinking about the user. We might write a persona. We think a little bit about it. But does that really carry over from development to when you take something to market? To find our ideal customer, we have to think a little bit deeper. We're going to look at where are they? What location? Who are they? What behaviors do they have? What are they doing? What are their interests? What's the day in their life life? And what do they like? What demographics? Maybe not your ideal customer. Not just anyone you could sell to, but who are you truly targeting? So we talk about this in our agile teams, right? A little bit. But does that same conversation really carry through to the end another department goes to market what it is that you're developing? I don't really remember all the agile teams I've worked with. I don't really remember talking to marketing. I don't remember talking to the people that then help to launch the product. Right? So really what we're talking about here is who needs you versus who you can sell to. Because a lot of people could probably benefit from having acid-free coffee and being a little bit healthier. But who actually needs that? And that's really what we want to focus on is that me and that person that truly when you say something that resonates with them, right? Has anyone here, have you ever had a product that you saw on TV or someone else had who said, I need that? What's an example? Does anyone have iPhone? Small percentage. Yeah, anything else. You saw it, you're like, that, me, yes, we need to connect. Drones? Yeah. Right? Anything else? Anything else that comes to mind? You saw it, you're like, that is something I need. It was a selfie stick, wasn't it? Yeah. Selfie, I can take it more better. Yeah. So when you have that feeling, think about the last thing that just called out to you and you didn't even care about the price. Imagine that those are the people that were using your product. Imagine that those are the people that you were able to connect with on your messaging because they saw it, they just knew, hey, that's for me. So as we started to think about this, most of us are probably familiar with the user store, right? And thinking about the user's perspective. But does that carry through to the end? What was so funny is when I was talking to Nick about this, he came in with one of my scrum classes and he was like, wait, he got kind of mad. He's like, this exists. He worked in marketing and advertising for years and he's like, how come nobody told us about this? You guys are actually writing these as you're developing the features and nobody told marketing that this exists. Like how are we not, why don't we have this in the loop so that we can actually market according to this? So it's a little bit of a twist the way we look at the user story here because it's not just looking at the features and what features are being created. We're actually starting with the who, what, why to break down the ideal customer, that person that truly needs your product that when they see it, they're like, that's me. I want that right now. And we're looking at what your solution is and how that makes their problems go away. Not how teams use the user story format because, well, it might take a lot of time, you know, consistency, they don't see the value. And that's okay. But what if we're really, truly thinking about what are the specific benefits that help make that person's problems go away? It's a little bit deeper of thinking for that. So as you break down the persona, as you may be familiar with this or product ownership, sometimes we'll talk about personas and we'll be like, okay, who is that ideal person? What are their stats? How old are they? Where do they live? And what are their goals? What's the day of their life? Or specifically, what are their challenges? And now that we know that primary persona, what's that secondary persona? What are their challenges? What's the day of their life? What are their people? We can really focus on this. Instead of marketing doing this separately, usually marketing departments know of this. They have personas. But what if we're talking? What if we're actually communicating that from development to when we go to take it to market? One of the things that we did is we started working with this coffee company on writing these online campaigns is we started doing short tests and split testing, different messaging, and we wrote different user stories. So as to who, it was so that why. Specifically looking at what are the things, the benefits that actually need a need or make a problem go away. And it's thinking a little bit deeper and you might go when you just throw out that why on a user story, right? Sometimes it's a broad reason. Sometimes it might be a good day. So we ran these five campaigns. Which one would you put more marketing dollars into? Number 30, is it obvious? Is it painfully obvious? But what if you don't take the time to really dissect that messaging to match that user that need? And what if you run this campaign at super long? We were working with a company a year and a half ago where they were running online, they were doing online advertising, radio and television. And they were spending over $10,000 a month on radio advertising. And they were telling what they were spending on TV or online. And they had no idea how many sales track back to those ad dollars. They didn't know their cost of customer acquisition. They didn't know which ads were effective. Throwing money out there and hoping it comes back, right? So what we did here is we started looking at who truly needs acid-free coffee? Well, what about people with a physical ailment? What if you had pain when you drank that? And think about the type of person. Think about that business owner, that executive. Someone in a high stress job. And if you told them, oh, you can't drink coffee anywhere, I'm sorry. And that person's a coffee drinker. Do they stop? What do you think? What's that? They would drink tea. They might go to tea. I mean, that's a possibility. I'm willing to admit that that scenario could exist. But chances are a lot of these guys will still drink coffee and deal with the pain, right? And so what we found was people with specific physical ailments are the people who needed our solution. So we looked at people with Crohn's, Colitis, Ulcers, Pylori. And then we split test those online ads against a free sample. And as you can see, ulcers went through the roof. There are a lot of people that are told they cannot drink coffee because they have an ulcer. So what we did is we had a user story for each of these types of people, or personas. And then we could split test the who, the what, and the why. So we could interchange it. What's the benefit? What's the specific reason? How can we connect with this person who has this real need? And when you start to dissect this, the user story like that, thinking about how you're actually going to talk to that person, that's how you can truly get that message to market match. And then it resonates and it resonates deeply. So for example, hey, you know, do you like having that cup of Jill every morning? And now you can't have it. And do you miss it? Do you ever get pain? You're told that you can't drink this anymore. Well, what if you tried our acid free coffee? This is a solution that can help you. And what we found was that the sales started going through the roof. And specifically, if you look at the numbers, when we have the pillory messaging or even just a free sample, we had about a thousand clicks. With ulcers, there's over 7,000. And that's over 600% increase. So now that we did this short test, we now have done all of our advertising dollars in the ulcers to messaging that is reaching out to people that have ulcers. And how much more effective are those campaigns? It's resonating. The short iterative cycle is looking to make sure that we're making small tweets or adjustments as we go. And what we found was that a lot of marketing departments are not doing that. They're not really booking and digging into that real message to market match. And they're like their campaign cycles go so long, they're not tracking, testing or iterating. Who would like to use their story? The next thing that we would do is build an online sales letter. And this is where we really start to connect with the problem. What's the real problem we're trying to solve? And what's the story of the solution? How can the solution help to make that problem go away? And we identify 15 critical questions that we can ask and really dig deep into what that looks like. Then we break down and build value in what our solution has to offer. And then social proof of the field felt found sharing how the solution has helped someone else who felt a certain way with what they found after they used it. And then calls to action. So when you start with who's that, that avatar, those demographics that ideal customer, you decompose it, look at the persona specifically, break it into the user stories and split test those to see which one hits. Then we take that messaging that's targeting people that have ulcers and we're breaking down to tell the story of here's what the problem is and how this can help you. How it can make your life better, what the real need is. What we're talking about here is one targeted change at a time, expecting and adapting. What a lot of us do every couple of weeks on our agile teams. But if our marketing department works like this as well, imagine if you're getting to market that much faster and increasing the speed to market and how you develop. And then if we're doing that same approach and how we then reach the customer. And we're reaching the right people. Customers that have been difficult to deal with, maybe some entrepreneurs in the room or people that have been in contact communication with them. It's a thing where you need to fire a customer sometimes, right? Like it's a thing where that's not the right person for you because if this person doesn't truly want or need your product, then if they're not fully satisfied or excited about it, they might be more of a pain to deal with than someone who actually needed looking at the offer, right? They don't understand the value. So we're trying to really get that match. What actually happened here is we had to pause the ads multiple times because we ran out of inventory. That's like a luxury problem, right? So anytime you success on that, you know, we're out of inventory, we have to order more, we can't even keep writing these ads because the messaging was that good and we were iterated so many times that we had that demographic doubt. We had that connection every time we posted online. What we get here is when you put this all together and you have that ideal customer, you do the short iterative test to figure out who it's appropriate for you to be reaching out to and we have empirical evidence that that's accurate. We see that, oh gosh, like, I mean, obviously, there's no questioning that chart, right? It's like, obviously, we want to do more campaigns like that work group. And then when you look at over time how you can grow, how you can then take this into other offerings that you have and expand it to other products or services, that really creates that perfect synchronization of having the right thing for the right people. And that's what leads us to massive growth. Jeff Sutherland says, Sutherland mostly do twice the work and half the time, right? Imagine if you could do twice the work and half the time and then market to twice the people with half the budget or if you could be more effective in how you reach those people and get twice the people as customers in a shorter period of time. And the way to do that is applying a lot of the agile concepts to how you do marketing. So we pull from a lot of different agile approaches. So we have some core concepts from Scrum, a little bit of Kanban, a little bit of a string programming. So we pull some of those core concepts together. But one of the things that really makes a difference here is speaking the language of marketing. Every time I try to talk to someone that's like a business owner or someone that's not familiar with software development or IT, we start talking about some of the terms that we're familiar with. They sometimes feel like it's a little overwhelming. Like, oh, I don't want to learn a whole new language. I just want to be able to work big and get stuff done. I want my team to be able to do the work and not to have any challenges and, you know, as we try to launch something. But I found that when you actually talk about the real words of what you're trying to do and when you can speak the language of that department, that's one way that we can truly connect and have alignment and a common understanding across the organization. So a lot of people, a big, big hot thing right now is scaling, right? How do we scale agile? Well, instead of just trying to have a framework that goes across every department, what if you went into one department, niched and spoke their language? What if you went to another department and spoke their language? That can be a bit more effective at times. There's still some benefit in some scaling approaches, but what if you were really looking at how does that department work and what could truly make their life easier? Part of what makes this successful is as we build our online sales funnels, we start from the middle out. So we don't just start with how can we get someone's information, like an email address, and then, you know, blast them with the benefits of something that we have to offer. How can we truly understand them and reach out to them with that understanding? Has anybody in here been a victim of an internet sales funnel? Do you know what that is? Okay, it's when you see an ad, say you're on Facebook, and you see some ad in the corner. I feel that's interesting. Get a free something. So you click on it. And then that says, oh, sign up for this webinar. Oh, okay, I'd like to learn more. Can you sign up for that? At the end of the webinar, they try to sell you on something else, and then you click on that, and you're like, oh, $20, I could buy that. You know, e-book or something, right? And then he goes there, and before you know it, he's gone through this whole process, and then before you know it, you're like, open your wallet for $1,000. What's an example of a funnel that you've experienced? A lot of things. It's SaaS products. SaaS products? Books, seminars, things like that. Yeah. Does that sound familiar to anyone now? Can you think of a sales funnel that you've fallen into online? Yeah, what was it? Apple. Apple? Yeah. Gosh. I use a lot of Apple products, and I don't even know how it started. I got an iPhone one day. And before I knew it, I had an iPhone. I got a MacBook here. I got a MacBook Pro. Like, it gets you, right? Yeah. So the online sales funnel is the concept of give some value away, and then you can upsell people. Because people do business with people that know life and trust, right? So if you can build that rapport, or give them some value, they can get some kind of result. It's easier to say, okay, what about you try this other thing? Or this next thing? But when you can truly connect with the needs of people, that can help you to then be even more effective in how you capture their information and then give them some other information and bring them into your community, into your tribe, right? As who your clients are. So real agile transformation, it includes more than just your IT department. And the reason that we wanted to start with looking at marketing is that's where the revenue comes in, right? That can make the biggest bang for the buck. So as we're looking at how can we be more effective across the entire organization and how we work, what if we have our teams using Scrum for an agile approach of choice, and now they're working more effectively. And then we have the people that are reaching out to the potential customers also working in a similar way. And these short iterative cycles will be more effective with every dollar spent. One of the things that we did as we started to pull together this content on agile marketing was looked at the heart of agile at the base. You may be familiar with Alistair Coburn, who was one of the creators of the Agile Manifesto. And it's funny, because about a year or two ago he was starting to talk about, we've got all these larger frameworks and books on how to do agile, right? Like these manuals. He's like, when did it get so complicated? That's not what we met when we wrote the Agile Manifesto. I've had a privilege of training with Alistair Coburn, and one of the things that cracks me up, it's like so powerful. When we wrote the Manifesto, right? And it's like, you can't argue with anything he says after that, because he was there when they put it together, right? And he's like, well, what we were thinking was this when we wrote the Agile Manifesto. And Alistair's now saying, let's get back to the heart of agile, where we collaborate, deliver, reflect, and improve. Because that's really at the core of what we're trying to do. That's not more complicated. Now, could you still have specific practices or frameworks and methodologies? Sure. But at the heart of what we're trying to do is collaborate. Because we can work more effectively that way. We want to deliver something, so do something, then see how it went. And then reflect. Analyze what's working or not working and what's to do better. And then improve. Make a small change, and then go through that cycle again. So as we use this at the core of the agile marketing approach, we look okay. As we collaborate, we want to really think about who is that person that we can really connect with, that can benefit from what we're doing. And as we write the user stories, we're thinking about what's the why that makes that problem go away. How can we truly connect with people that need our products rather than here's all the things we could do and don't you all just want this? Please say yes, please say yes, please say yes. So if we can truly understand who needs what we do and we can collaborate on that, we can be more effective in connecting with that message and that person. Then as we deliver, we go into that funnel system. So from the middle out, taking into account all of those factors on the demographics, where people are, what their interests are, and thinking about the user, thinking about that person. And from there, you then have that drip campaign or that sequence where we attract them closer. Here's some value. What do you want more? Could this help me? And reflection, we want to review the data. What's really cool about doing online advertising and marketing is that there's like cold hard numbers, right? And you can see how many people clicked on this link. You can track how many views did we have. And one of the things we've been looking at recently is heat maps on websites and it's really fascinating. Where do people click? Do they get confused? Do they scroll back? Do they go up or down? How long are they on the page? So when we do online marketing, there's so much data that gives us absolute evidence and hey, this is working your map, right? Nobody clicks on this page. When people click on this page, what was different? So then, as we improve, we've done that, we can do split tests. So we can look at the different user stories. Look at like those different ailments and say which one is the one that's getting the biggest result, the most interest. And then we can choose to work with those people or target those people. So then as you go through this cycle, is it okay? What's our hypothesis? Has anyone heard of the 80-20 rule? So when you think about a system where you have like 20% of the people, you have like 80% of the results or 20% of things are the cause for 80% of something else, we want to find that 80-20. What is it that we can do that's this much effort that attracts the most people? So as we're doing that, we can run these targeted campaigns and then empirically discover what's working. So that's the concept behind agile marketing. And what we did is, we started after we saw the success with this coffee company, we launched a case study program. We're inviting people from many different industries to say, all right, let's try this here and here, can we duplicate this? Can we replicate that? And the first person that was in our case study program, their first campaign, this guy actually sold over $30,000. Well, that sounds pretty good. Not many people will be mad about that. And even different industries where you might not think, would this work? Or I don't think my clients are on the internet, right? But if you can really get that messaging right and the short editor cycles helps you to adjust until you can find who that person is you're trying to meet. So as we look at this, and as we went through the case study program, we said, what are the common factors? What are the things that are really the core elements that people are fighting success with? And that's what we put together in the Agile Marketing Academy, because, well, there's pockets of Agile Marketing out there. You Google it and stuff shows up. But there's a lot of theory out there. And we said, you know what, let's put a stake in the sand. These are the best practices we've literally physically seen. And let's continue to build upon that. Let's continue to explore that learning. So as we talk about this concept, we want to invite you to look at ways that you can use Agile outside of IT. How could you incorporate Agile into your marketing? We have some best practices that we've seen. But I want to encourage you to think about that. Think about how could other departments use Agile? How could you take the core concepts and take it far beyond? We've done Agile to help master product groups. We've worked with, I just did a certified strong master class for voice counts earlier this year over in the west of Chicago. And there's benefits to different people, different audiences using these approaches. But one of the coolest things, which actually isn't that shocking probably, is that when we did the class, CSM class for voice counts, they actually picked it up quicker than the adults did. And that might not even be surprising to you. But one of the things, like even going through the exam, we did the exam at the end of day two, and the kids were done in at least half the time with the adults. I think a lot of that is they didn't have anything to unlearn. They didn't have 10, 15, 20 years of doing something a certain way and then trying to learn something different. So we truly want to simplify and get back to the core of what are we trying to do here with this Agile approach. Imagine that you do start to introduce some of these concepts to different departments. Imagine that your marketing department tries this and they get some great results. And if all this did was allow you to be more efficient because you're messaging in streamline and accurate, you can increase your productivity because, well, now that we're developing things officially, we can actually reach our ideal customers that way. And we could have more people, but not just more people buy our products with the right people. The people that will become raving fans, leave positive reviews, not be that painful type of customer where you're trying to waste a lot of time servicing them or answering their questions or, you know, it's not something that they may have really needed, so they're complaining about stuff or they're not seeing the value. And it could help you generate more sales because now we know what's working. We're putting our ad dollars into the thing that got the most clicks. We did short tests and we saw and apparently discovered exactly what was, it wasn't people want it. And if all of this helped you do any of these things, what would it be worth it? So I encourage you to think about areas where you could start to apply agile in ways that might be different than you have before. Think about what departments you could have reached out to and you could have them start to apply some of these practices. How can you speak their language on it? And one of the things that we'd like to invite you to experience is we'll have a free online workshop for anybody that would like to attend. There's a blue flyer that you may have seen in your conference bag as you go to agilemarketingacademy.com forward slash Singapore. It's a free online workshop but we'd love to share some more of these concepts with you. Our goal is to share this and spread it because I don't think just keeping it to ourselves is going to really help the community, help the industry. If you have any questions, please feel free to reach out. Connect with me on social media and it's really an exciting time and exciting thing. We're also holding an agile marketing training class this weekend, a workshop with Palo IT. And that is going to be Saturday and Sunday. So it's a two-day class on certified agile marketing specialists. If you have any more interests, check out online and join the free workshop or if you happen to be around and you're not leaving town on Saturday, we'd love to have you join us. Edit questions. I think we have just a couple minutes for questions. We'd love to be able to enter. Yeah. The question is, with short timeframes, what's the timebox for targeting or changing of that messaging? And one thing that we'll do is we'll run a quick little test for a day just to see what interests we have. So put something out on Facebook or some other online platform say, how many clicks did we get in just a day? But usually we'll run a campaign for about a week. So we'll say, okay, let's take a very short time period and then we can reflect on that. When you get longer than a couple of weeks, if you're early on in your campaign, you probably want to have it shorter. So do a couple of tests every day, check back on the number every couple of days. You might be making adjustments every couple of days in your campaign online or maybe like go a week at a time. And then once you find something that's working, you'll still be reflecting and going through that every week or two weeks, but you might be able to run it longer after that. So it's really short of time period to hone in on it. So maybe every couple of days looking back and then running a campaign for a week. But if it's not working, we don't wait the whole week. Right? So we'll make a change. Yeah. Yeah. So pretty much looking at what's working and having that hypothesis proving it out and then a little bit of it is also, it depends, right? So if it's working then you keep doing more of that. But every so often, you know, try something different, split test it and see what results you get. Okay. What's the key measurement for what? So what's the key measurement for reaching each target market? Yeah. So how do you measure when you run these targeted campaigns? Number of clicks at the beginning because we can start with gauging interest before people have to make that purchase. But ultimately, it's the dollars. It's the real results of how many people buy it because even if you have a bunch of people interested, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to make a purchase. And that's what we want. So we start with looking at number of clicks, gauging general interest, and then ultimately, it's the sales that matter. Because even if we have the interest, I mean that gives us an indicator to keep going down that path. But we don't want to keep doing that if we're not actually buying it. Yeah. Does agile marketing apply easily out of digital marketing? Does agile marketing apply easily out of digital marketing? So if you like mailings, like this big mailings. Point of sale. Point of sale. The concepts still work, but it's a lot faster when you do stuff online because you can track it and you can quickly see more instantly, right? Think of like a tweet how many people you can reach in a short period of time. But if you think about it, just about all marketing comes back to the internet. Even if you have a flyer or you get something in the mail, usually there's a URL there, right? So a lot of marketing actually does end up back online where someone has to make a purchase. But it does apply in other forms that are not digital. It just takes longer and sometimes it'll be more challenging to see the metrics on that. With the buzz outside, I think our time box is coming to an end. However, I wanted to invite you to stop by the agile marketing academy. Paul is holding up some sign-up sheets. We're doing interviews with people. We'd love to hear your thoughts on some of the latest trends in the agile industry and, you know, from leadership, looking at agile side-by-tea, your thoughts on the community or the event itself. So please stop by our booth or sign up to do an interview. We'd love to hear from you. Have you got any questions? I'll be here all week. Thank you, everyone.