 Okay, I will call the February 4th, 2019 Select Board meeting to order and I invite you to rise and join us in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, liberty, justice, and world. I'd like to welcome everyone to tonight's Select Board meeting and just remind you if you have a cell phone to please turn it off or put it to silence, that would be greatly appreciated. I think I did. Okay, we're going to go on to agenda additions and changes and I see we have a few items next to us, so great. So first some edits to the town meeting item, item 6e, some proposed edits to the Q&A session based on some feedback I received from the board. We have a memo from Ms. Renner competition for volunteer rescue squad personnel. So that'll go in the reading. Can you file along to the other assets? Okay, yep. We'll put that 8e then. Okay. And some proposed corrections to minutes for the January 2nd, which would be under 6f. Okay, anything else? Dennis Lutz has another update to the winter operations. We can either add it tonight or put it on the reading file for the next meeting, whichever you prefer. Well, we have the winter operations update, so. It's a more recent update. Okay. So we can just add it. And that'll be 8i, okay. And if that's, so this goes 8i. All right. So do I have a motion to amend the agenda to add items to 8i, 6e, 6f, and 8e? Thank you, Irene. Do I have a second? Second. Thank you, Andy. Any further discussion about adding these items to the agenda? Hearing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. Motion passes unanimously. Thank you. We're now on to public to be heard. This is time for members of the public to speak to the Select Board on items that are not on tonight's agenda. Is there anyone here tonight wishing to speak to or in public to be heard? Okay. Thank you, Margaret. I'm going to pull this closer. Is this one working? No, it's not working. Okay. Great. Okay. Then if there's nobody else, we're going to move on to our public hearing, which is item five. So I will move to open the FYE 2020 capital budget in five-year plan. This is a public hearing. If there are, we have a capital plan out there 2020 to 2024 that we've reviewed as the Select Board and it's open to the public to comment on. And is there anyone here tonight wishing to ask a question about the capital budget or comment on it? So I will entertain a motion to close the public hearing. So moved. Thank you, Irene. Do I have a second? Second. Thank you. And any further discussion about closing the capital budget public hearing? Okay. Hearing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. The motion passes unanimously. Thank you all. Okay. We're going to go on to our first business item and that's 6A. It's approval of the FYE 2020 capital budget in five-year plan. We had the public hearing. We've all had a chance to comment on it. I would love a motion, Irene. Thank you. I move that the Select Board approve the FYE 2020 capital budget in five-year plan. Thank you, Irene. Do I have a second? Second. Thank you, Mike. Any further discussion about approving the FYE 2020 capital budget in five-year plan? Okay. Hearing none, all those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. Passes unanimously. We're moving right along. We're going to go on to business item 6B and that is an update on wastewater force mainly. And tonight we have Aaron. How are you doing, Aaron? I'm doing well. Thank you. Good. Yeah, but you guys... Yeah, definitely. I'll talk to them. I know you jumped right on it and followed all the protocol, but we appreciate you coming in to give us an update on what happened. Yeah, Thursday the 24th around noon time. My boys noticed quite a bit of water coming from the pump station. We had a thaw, if you guys remember, rain events slash snow. Everything was melting. So we didn't really put a good time to it, but when we did notice a substantial amount of water, we just decided to throw some dye in the wet well. Found that there was leak. Proceeded with the protocol with notifying the state. They make us notify within an hour and then again in 12 hours. So between that first notification with an hour, we were organizing, getting the crews out together. We called in the village. We used their pumper truck to help us bypass pump. PNP septic was called. I called in engineers construction to come in and help us assess the situation. And as we were bypass pumping, excavating, trying to locate any leak, we had a major tree right next to the pump station that started giving us quite a bit of problems. Came very unsafe just due to the excavation. Sides were sloughing in water. The leak happened to be right under the tree about six, seven feet down. So we terminated the being eight o'clock at night. We couldn't see very well. We had, we had lights on site, but we just decided to call it off and bypass pump all night. And we gather in the morning called in DJ's tree service. The tree got going on the fix and the repair. And about 12, 15 hours later, had the repair complete. And we had the station back up and running pretty near midnight on Friday night. And this is minus five degrees. It got pretty cold there Friday. Yeah, it got pretty cold. It was probably one of the worst repairs slash construction projects I had to deal with thus far at the town. So I wasn't. Did you do it in that weather particularly or? Everything, if something could go wrong, they did. If there was some obstacle to be thrown in front of us, there was one thrown. So the guys responded great. Stress was quite high, but they pulled through what we needed to do and got it back online. For the people at home who may not know what a force main is and how give a quick. So everybody has a sewer connection to their home. A gravity feeds out to the street to the gravity sewer system. Manholes and pipes underground. The village treatment plant is quite a distance from here out in the town center where this break happened to be. A lot of that gravity is flowed down to pumping stations that will pump the sewer into farther along in the distribution system. And then eventually allow gravity feed to the treatment plant. The portion of the pipe that was broken and I'm going to take something out of the Dennis looks playbook here. A little prop for you guys. Picture this as your your pump station. And this is the force main coming out of the pump station. What we found to be the problem was this was a 90 degree bend. And every time the pump station kicked on over the past 34 years. It was doing one of these things. Now this joint was a restrained joint a megalov joint. But there was no other restraints either. Threading it back or rotting it back to securing it to the pump station itself. Or any thrust blocks in place so over time it allowed itself to work a leak in the gasket. And then the leak started leak started eroding the pipe. So we ended up with a hole in the force main. And a faulty gland pack got the fitting. So all that was replaced patch put on the force main. We welded it up and running. Did a visual and got it back on service. But the locking whatever was required. What we've what what I've found and Dennis can definitely chime in here if you like. Over time engineering principles and standards get better. We learned from our mistakes. At this point back then it was pretty much standard to use these types of fittings. And restrained glands, restrained joints. Leading reading literature now and installation some of the Smith's Lovelace cans, which is what these called the company. A lot of times they may bring the force main out the side of the can now. Or actually restrain the fitting this 90 back to the can with threaded rod or other restraints. So I did add a thrust block to the top of this 90 to make sure that this stops and ceases. Okay. We did receive one bill for the bypass pumping. P&P septic was there for the duration. And that one came in at around $13,000. We haven't received the contractors bill. Our electrical contractors bill or anything further. So these are about six or seven feet below the ground, you say. Yes, some are deeper than others. I think our deepest one is closer to 18 feet. So if I want to try to inspect all the ones out in the field would be prohibitive, I would imagine. Destructive methods, yeah. Digging down it's not feasible. There are a lot of non-destructive methods that we could apply to this. The water district has implemented some line inspections using sonic ball that goes through the force main. There are tethered options where you actually drag a probe that could measure wall thickness of the pipe as it goes through. We can camera the lines. So there are options out there other than just digging to inspect to see if everything's copacetic. Is it worth doing those, do you think, to see if there are any others like that? Or this doesn't happen very often? It doesn't happen very often, thank God. We should definitely stay proactive and look at the possibilities and inspect a few of them out there to see if we see any deficiencies. We definitely don't want to be planning for this to happen again. If we can catch something now with one of these non-destructive methods, it's better to do it now than another cold night in January to... So you're working through that to see what options make sense that are cost-effective. Any questions about that, Mike? Forgive me and correct me if I'm wrong, but I could have sworn that we had money set aside for exploration of old infrastructure, just this. Sir and I go around a lot about what we call it in terms of what type of fund, but within the water sewer funds, we have a fund that I guess from an engineering perspective I'd call a sinking fund, which is set up to fund future replacements of lines, water sewer lines. It can be stretched a little bit in terms of if we have to make other improvements that might benefit the system, you probably could use it for that too. So we have those dollars that are available to do that. This is a good time when we might tap into that account to pay for this particular type of event. There was a problem, but there's also correction. Where do you split the two? It's part of its operation and we found the problem. We dug the hole and part of it, we've got to fix it. So yes, we could take it from that, Mike. So there is, and later on I think when we get to the portion that talks about the ETC Center, I can talk a little bit about that, but the fund is substantial. So it could support this. Okay. But the idea I think was that I think you were taking a proactive approach to start trying to camera lines and try to use some of these non-invasive, I'm sure that's not the right word, but without having to dig, go in and camera lines or do them by sonic ball or whatever the case may be. Okay. I just wanted to make sure that I understood that correctly. Thank you. Other questions? Comments? I want to say thank you for, I know that was not a fun job. The environment was not conducive to making it any easier. That was a difficult job to start with. And I know the hours were awful. We have a great crew and they really showed their true colors and came up and did what they were supposed to do. It took care of all the, the state is very strict on how you handle these things and I know you jumped right on that. Oh yes. Oh yes. And the state was great working with us. The guy called me back that evening, 9.30 and said, hey, how's everything going? They were great to deal with. No one got frostbite or anything? No. So thank you for, for, for dealing with that and bringing us up to speed on what happened there. Subcontractors too on that. They had a great group, great group of guys. And they were, they were races. Worth every penny. Yep. Okay. If anything else? Okay. Thanks again. So then we're going to move on to business item six C and that's an update and discussion on ETC next, the town center planning project. And we have our community development director. So you give us an update. I know this has been in the works for quite some time now. So we did get the, the reading file. It was quite substantial. So we got a little bit early and I appreciate that, but a lot, a lot of information to go through. So we look forward to maybe an executive summary. Yes. Okay. So tonight we're going to give you a little update on the ETC next plan, the Essex town center next plan. We've got Darren Chibler tonight, our planner as part of the team and also Dennis Lutz to address some of the infrastructure issues associated with this kind of long-term planning. Just for anyone who might not know what we do, the community development department does two kinds of planning. It's some of it is short term like development review day to day, what's in your face and measuring and responding to the impacts proposed by individual development applications. The second kind is long term planning and this is long term planning. So it brings up big questions bigger than you would normally get in a planning project. The last time this was looked at was in 91? Yeah. Yes. So it takes a long time for, you know, update some plans like this. It takes a while for them to build out. Sometimes they don't build out the way that was envisioned as the Essex town center did not build out the way it was envisioned. That happens, market conditions change, all sorts of things can change. Cirque highways get built but not all the way. You know, these are hard to predict. So we haven't seen you in over a year. The plan itself is still in draft form because we're now working on the regulatory phase and after we finish the regulations we're going to go back in and button up the plan for things that changed during the regulatory process. So the plan still lives on. It's a dynamic living document but we've been working on the regulations since well last summer at some point and we have examined the neighborhood districts, site criteria, connectivity, open space, recreation and now architecture, form, character, uses, density, all the good stuff is what we're working on now and that will take us through April and then we're going to start writing the regulations and then the planning commission this summer is going to be holding hearings on the regulations. You know, the standard thing required by the statute. We will be doing this summer and with any luck the regulations will hit you guys in the early fall. So it's all coming toward you and it's our job to prepare you and we will always be on hand to do that. So there's that 1991 plan. You can kind of see that some things worked out and some didn't. Areas perceived as appropriate for dense residential growth never happened and that's good. So what we've been working on now as part of the new plan we redid the vision and just to go over it the Essex Town Center or ETC is a diverse community within the town of Essex that has grown from its historic beginnings near Towers Road to extend along Vermont Route 15 to its intersection with Vermont 289. Within this corridor distinctive and interconnected neighborhoods have matured to support a wide variety of land uses including residential retail, civic, commercial, and recreational. These neighborhoods are linked together into the broader region through an integrated multimodal transportation network, a shared and pervasive wayfinding system, and a common palette of streetscape and landscape elements while retaining an architectural expression that enforces their unique character. So that's the vision that we've coalesced around so far and it's driving this part of the project. Anna, can you just explain what wayfinding system is? Yeah that's I go there for Mad Taco, go there for the dentist appointment, I mean for the dentist office, the inn is that way, it just tells you where to go. Is it just signage? Yeah, but planners use fancy words for things. And a little bit. Also you know having a sense of identity when you arrive in the town center and having it be a place that people recognize when they're driving through it not just you know oh there's some buildings off on the side of Route 15 as I'm going through so trying to get some you know landmarks as you come in or leave to say you are now entering the town center you are now leaving the town center come again soon. And a wayfinding system is usually all done in the same motif you know the same colors and materials and so that's why it's called something fancy like wayfinding. An example would be the signs in Burlington where they say a campus district you know tertiary marketplace you see them as you go through Burlington and it helps you navigate. Okay so this is what we did to the 1991 master plan. We have made it tighter and more compact. Can you just orient everybody kind of on that map where things are? We have a pointer thing? Sure. Okay so Route 15 okay so and the historic yeah yeah and then down toward the Cirque is the town center yep that whole district is what we have today so it's just right along Route 15. We the old one had something like 11 zoning districts we got rid of a few which I think was going to make it easier. We chopped off the top of what was called the golden triangle where it went to a point up near Towers Road yeah we just didn't think it was appropriate to develop up there anyway. 25 years later we learned that so we took it off so now we see a tighter town center with various districts historic center neighborhood commercial mixed use north mixed use south residential and conservation recreation and we can go into those in some detail but for purpose you know for purposes of tonight I thought we might just move through but let you know that we we're working on purpose statements right now for all of the districts and we're not quite done with that. So where we are right now is in architectural design right now in fact we had a meeting a couple weeks ago and then we're going to have one in a couple weeks from now we are looking at form architectural facade treatments establishing building arrival points arcane arcades and stoops maintaining architectural detailing along the street very very horizontal and vertical building planes in response to the pedestal and other kinds of design elements that we're working on. The biggest thing that we've been working on is establishing more of a grid street network in the Essex town center and we've been able to do that remarkably by working with Peter Edelman so his his latest plan cut that through for us so it's going to look when it's built out like a much more traditional New England village with defined sidewalks and end points rather than this curvy kind of atmosphere. Previously we worked on site layout massing and scale building height orientation and views we had a 3D the UVM spatial analysis lab did a drone flyover so it did some great 3D work in the town center those are some of the images the upward one isn't particularly helpful but you can see how the one below it gives you a nice feeling for this the sweep of the town center and route 15 etc um we we aren't done with massing and scale um that isn't proposed in the town center we haven't arrived at height a proposed height for any of the buildings um these are just for discussion points like what do we like about that kind of massing and that kind of scale um what don't we like um generally people would prefer not the big box feel but buildings that either you know are chopped up into smaller structures or appear to be um you know which use architectural devices to appear smaller than it really is we got a clear message on that again the survey that we did which 400 people responded to said that they're pretty comfortable with the retaining the Vermont vernacular architecture in the town center um um you know we can't promise that the future buildings will look exactly like um you know a front you know a little cottage on a with a front porch um because buildings are presented to us is pretty big these days because of the realities of the economies facing developers so so that's a whole different and interesting conversation we also looked at mobility and connectivity sidewalks public transit um like pass boulevards you know these have all been discussed this fall and um the planning commission has been weighing in and and we've got a good feeling for what people want to see and we hope for a future build out to have a much better connectivity much better um bicycle bicycle friendly environment um more appealing streetscapes um um just generally a more attractive place to be in the future um with little parks and stuff like that you know we're actually trying to do a fix of some aspects of the town center we're trying to make what's there better in the future make a destination and the experiential destination well um that's certainly um peter's idea and it's not that at all you know for his peter edelman's part of his side of the equation there for the you know the other side it's it's not that either there's nothing wrong with um destination tourism or people being drawn for a particular use or a cluster of uses like let's go out for dinner and then go bowling or let's get let's go into the salt cave and then have dinner um and that's what I think is emerging is as some of the vision there to have it be a little bit more fun yeah so parks and pub public spaces are really an important part of what we've been looking at um studies have shown that people are willing to live in denser you know denser um atmosphere if they have access to open space and parks and um so even though the sx town center is our growth area and we want it to be dense and possibly higher we still need the parks in the greenspeak otherwise people aren't going to want to live there so we've been very mindful of that so the road ahead which we're working on now is to develop design standards for the sx town center that create the kind of uses and patterns of development that the community has told us they want to see that might be it's probably going to be a form-based code hybrid um form-based code is very administrative and um that's not appropriate so we're looking at something that's a little bit administrative and a little bit planning commission and um that's what we're going to be doing for the next several months and so we've got to adopt the plan and the regulations and we also have to consider supporting key public investments such as water pressure sewer allocation sidewalk paths open spaces storm water parking and to that end i'd like to invite denise up because he's going to help us talk about some of the um public investments oh good so in order to see this vision through there's some infrastructure investment that would be required you're going to hear all about our part is the fun part but i don't need to engineer because you never see what we do it's all underground but you can't you really can't develop if you don't have the infrastructure in place to make it happen um so there's a couple things that were timely timely because we lucked out on at least one study um that was with the shampoam water district the timing and the second was that we had pre-planned to look at the sewer system anyway because that needed an update to look at capacity and allocation and all the stuff that goes with that um erin and i have worked together on this um either one of us could probably stand up here and and do it we thought it'd be good if we just kind of bounced off each other and maybe keep it a little bit interesting because for non-engineers it's probably very dull but for us it's kind of fun um so shampoam and i'll just lead into what i don't want to take erin sunder away because i'm going to have him do most of the water system but to lead into that erin is represented the shampoam water district i'm the representative from south burlington um to the shampoam water district so it's kind of bizarre to have two members in the same office on the shampoam water district commission governing board but we are um we learned early on that that they wanted to take a look at how water is fed into the town of essix and you want to cover this part were you okay okay um no don't need props um our water that comes into the town is pumped from the lake to essentially the two tanks in the village one's near ibm what's up off global foundries if you will cross the street one's near athens drive that's kind of the control elevation and then there's pumps that are down by the water tank next to global foundries that pump it into the town there are no pumps over on the athens drive side so that water comes out of that pump station and goes kind of two directions one up sand hill road through pinewood manor in that area and the other one up through the village it's metered on both sides and then back into the town and then ends up on our two tanks um one up on sacks and hill and one over fix me fix me so you've got our two tanks and from there's pumped up to jericho so the flow of water from our two tanks they fill them at night and then during the daytime the normal demand draws them down they fill them again at night that's the general procedure so with the gravity feed from those points um and you can't pump really at a higher capacity you're going to you know basically blow it out of the tanks so the high point for the town is over by butler's corners relative to those tanks the two tanks are obviously higher but the highest point with regard to pressure and elevation the place we have the least pressure is over in the area of butler's corners town center town center so when you when you're pumping to get normal pressures in the town you've got to overcome that elevation difference difference so we'll have pressures of 90 to 100 pounds per square inch down along river road as they come out of the pumps so down there people have to put pressure reducing valves so they don't blow off the hot water tanks but you need that pressure to get it up to our tanks then when it flows over to butler's corners we're at a point where the pressure is marginal it's adequate for single family residential but it's marginal from a lot of perspectives 30 psi or something yeah yep and that's at the street and for every foot of rise you you lose a half a pound of pressure so if you start going to two or three stories we've solved that in a couple cases for some of the developments up there by asking them and requiring them to put larger diameter pipes in so that your normal house feed would be larger because from that 30 psi in the street you're going to lose their friction losses into the house the last thing you want to do is be on the second floor turning your shower on and finding it go you know drip drip drip you need that pressure I think the largest service connection we put in was an inch and a half which is kind of unheard of for a domestic yeah but that essentially almost guarantees that there's a very little pressure loss between the street and the house so we there's some ways to fix some of the inherent problems so everyone up there right now has adequate pressure is it as good as it is at the lower end of town no but is it adequate the answer is yes so Champlain Water District wanted to look at they also have a problem when they fill their tanks because of the dynamics and the hydraulics between the two tanks the location and also with the village it's harder to keep those tanks balanced those tanks are controlled automatically through electronically at the plant through and remotely through skater systems and it's just really hard to get those tanks to equalize and so they wanted to do a study to look at what if they put a pump station over near Athens Drive and fed the town system from the other direction does that help them equalize the tank flow and provide them more flow capability yeah it's basically a second feed into the town distribution system and along along with the equalization of the tanks here in the sx west north east and south it also provided additional turnover in the tank volume turnover so water doesn't stagnate they were having that issue as well at times so so that's where we got to where we are that's yeah and that's the that's the genesis of the study that's why they started out with that it just so happens that the the core of their study area happened to be in the asset town center in our low pressure area and we're able to piggyback on their study if you will to take a look at our distribution system and any alternatives that may be available to us in the terms of upgrades to our our system to provide more flow into that area doesn't necessarily help pressure though right pressure we will have 23 psi on average 23 to 40 that is dictated as Dennis was saying by the level of the tanks and I know there's no plan I don't know if I would vote for it for raising the level of these tanks or the height of these tanks to increase pressure there are a couple options out there that we did explore with regards to pressure one of them essentially creating a high pressure district within the town center that could be done by a series of pressure reduction valves at various points within our distribution system and a booster pump station but by the the number of connections that would likely be connected to this high pressure area and the number of uh just a sheer amount of maintenance and operational costs associated with running a system like that it's just not cost prohibitive you know it's just it's not I don't want to invest that much money into it we found a second way of doing it um and it's pretty much done everywhere any urban area I mean you see these skyscrapers hundred stories I'm sure ever see some out west they definitely don't have the pressure at the street level to provide the pressure at the hundreds floor so they have a series of tanks and booster pumps within the building itself to provide the adequate pressures that each floor would need above and beyond as part of the cwd project we had them look at two other alternatives to increase flows into the area the cwd project would increase flows I've calculated on the order of a 15 percent increase in flows into the town center area just by building the pump station and connecting with a 12 inch force main into our distribution system and the increased flows are important because they do relate a little bit to pressure as well if you think about that if you're drinking out of the cup that Aaron had before you're talking here we go you're talking about trying to suck water out of a fairly small container now think of this as the lake you know you could you could suck a lot of water out this and you're never going to affect that flow in the lake you are going to affect it in the cup and so if you could provide more flow then what happens is as customer a over here turns on and starts to run his tap and customer B turns on theirs to run their tap with the more flow with the more flow in a larger volume there's less impact on the system so it does solve part of the pressure problem but it doesn't raise pressure and one of the things Aaron was talking about was we've done a good job in terms of planning for our water system up in that area we have lots of interconnects but the downside of that is if you were going to create a high pressurized zone every place you've got to interconnect back into the system you've got to take that pressure back down with a pressure reducing valve and so you're talking about a multiple numbers of these things at fairly high cost and you're in your and from cd cbd's perspective you're over pressurizing a system which they don't need paying for more electricity paying for more for pumps to run that doesn't really meet their demand and so you you and you can't get as an incident you can't get to the high rise solution anyway even if you are out there and you decide to raise pressure and do a few things you might get another i don't know five six seven eight maybe even ten pounds of pressure out but you're not going to get that second third fourth story that you need but the first floor should be adequate first floor second floor should be adequate and and the other thing that's interesting too from a topography point of view route 15 south of route 15 south yes south the elevations drop off so as those elevations drop off you can go to higher stories because your elevation may be leveled back with route 15 at the third floor if you're down a ways and we have existing system pressures in that southern part of route 15 which would be hana it's when you get to the other side when you get to the other side it's when you get to the north side of route 15 that you really start to experience the problems so if you're if part of the etc plan that's going to develop that north side that's where you're going to run into problems with having to really pressurize the systems you may have to on the south side depending upon how high you want to go so as part of cwd study we did kind of coordinate some of the design effort or the actual study effort with those folks and their consultant and we found that we could increase the flows along the northern part of the route 15 corridor in the town center by providing a couple pieces of infrastructure that we lack at this moment in time the first would be a interconnect yes it's that orange line there kind of kind of sideways there it would be an interconnect with a 12-inch main at the existing eight-inch stub at the maple fields and we would follow easterly on the north side of 15 to the intersection of old stage road and interconnect with an existing eight-inch main there additionally we have a existing six inch line a dead end line that begins at sx way and travels westerly towards the intersection old stage and it currently dead ends about four or five hundred feet east of the intersection that other project would be to replace that old line with a 12 inch from sx way and interconnect with old stage thus looping the system on that northern part that 12 inch diameter is going to give us the the additional flows needed in that area to kind of meet the future needs on that side of the six inch now it's six inch now between sx way just shy of old stage but there's nothing along old stage to maple fields at this time let me go back just don't worry everybody so old stage road route 15 this is the the village tank at this location it's turned very yep over here yep and the and what's part of the cdb's study was looking at alternative routes not to bore everybody but they used there there is when the cirque high was built there was an extra sleeve put underneath here that i think cdb paid for just in case so one of the options would be to come down and kind of go up go underneath that sleeve and tie back in they looked at that very expensive they looked at coming along here going up route 15 coming along the cirque highway and tying in there's an interconnect of our water system that comes um from essentially the lang shopping center down under the cirque goes into the lang farm properties and and terminates down in an area over here this is eight inch municipal waterline all of this is waterline is tied in through the water system here and then going east so right now there is no there is a waterline that comes from here up across the street and stops there is no waterline here there's a short section here and said that's not there and there's an old section of six inch right six inch yes it's out here and so what we what we found was that by we asked them to look at a bunch of different options and model them one of the options was what if you went back here and made this a 12 it doesn't help a whole lot they came back their least cost option come down here pump station connect up here's that now and connect it at that point that's their least cost option that's what they want to do and it helps us somewhat in terms of pressure and flow not a lot of pressure but somewhat in terms of flow a few more hundred gallons per minute i think that's in the memo this one takes us a little bit makes us a little bit better if that goes to 12 inch i i think i calculated upwards of 60 increase of what we have out there existing by installing that those two sections length of pipe and flow does have a big impact on fire protection iso rating insurance ratings all those kind of things so there's really a couple components of this you want to talk about those the three components that we see this this piece that you mean you mean the the actual infrastructure we're putting in yeah because there's three things that can be done over there by three different parts if you will this one i'm going to get back and we talked about funds that have been set aside this is a replacement of existing town water line whether etc develops fully or not it will help the flow in that area that we have funds set aside to do this short section out here there's nothing there but if we interconnected with this point this water line interconnects back in this way so this whole system would then interconnect this piece would be missing and this piece we've kind of put on the table as being a potential future developer responsibility when this particular property goes or a portion thereof or we could do it early and collect impact fees after the fact if the town wanted to go ahead and build the whole thing today to be ready for the future and charge impact fees for the portion that isn't there today or collect our impact fees and put it towards that portion i guess is the best way to say it because we're already collecting impact fees and we did have some discussion about having a surcharge district in that area for any future development that could possibly benefit from these increased line side line size diameters and the increased flow provided by that construction there are different mechanisms out there i think that could be utilized to help realize this final design what we want here that interconnect that loop that northern loop along north side of route 15 that would impact traffic and then would be quite an ordeal right well what we would do in terms of of just i'm just thinking out loud in terms of that developer piece of this um our impact fees right now for water and sewer is about $3200 per single family house so that's a one of you 200 gallons a day that's a number to kind of $3200 so depending upon what you designate is dead in city for that area it's pretty easy to calculate well if you built out single family multi-story what would the impact fees be under our current system what's it going to cost to put that line in if they're if they're if it's adequate you may not need a surcharge if it's not adequate you need a surcharge we kind of laid the groundwork at the end of the memo here kind of like the the next steps if you will of where we want to proceed or where we should proceed um study wise when it comes to the water in that area first we have a Champlain water district what are their plans um i believe this is we have a lion item held a placeholder within the capital budget but no funding for it to date um i would expect and i don't believe we have board approval for the project that's forthcoming i don't see any hurdle there it's needed um i would see this project being constructed 2021-ish 2022 um two three years out the second would be the two water line projects there the single loop up there on the north part of the 15 finding out what a preliminary cost estimate would be we currently have it in the capital budget as a placeholder but it's not funded currently we need to come back with some cost estimates to kind of give us a a number to play with here that said some discussion would need to ensue at the select board level and the planning commission level over this work as part of the the etc plan itself and as denis was discussing earlier here some determination on funding is it all going to be through capital uh or is it a series of partially capital partially impact fees um is there another mechanism out there that we float to see if if that works a surcharge um and then finally um uh basically at our level at the engineering office we need to be a little more mindful um we're going to probably make the requirements a little stricter on reviewing future development um in our low pressure area up there um we definitely need to be mindful about the elevations of buildings very important um but again that's at our level we would definitely be requiring people to provide some sort of analysis on flows potential flows required flows for fire domestic um likely be using our model that we have currently to uh input any of their data um there's there's really any questions you guys there's really two given this study given the studies that we've done we've really got two two water projects that are are important to the town one is the one we're working on now to try to get to construction the summer if we can and that's the bi there's a water line over in 40th and allen which we've talked about a number of times that connects into susie wilson road um that will improve the potential for growth and commercial growth in the area and also help both flow and pressure on that side um that's already underway this one at this point we've completed enough work for us to say this is a worthwhile improvement but we can't move on this or won't move on it unless the board says either now or at a later date and I'm not expecting an answer tonight but that this is a project we can come back to you with more specifics on because if this is a rule we want to go both for etc and for the future of the town itself we can come back with design costs construction costs we do have already um a check with sarah we've got about a million over a million dollars in impact fees in the water sewer fund and about three million dollars total including uh for the the replacement fund we talked about um so there are funds that we could step off and build this sufficient funds sufficient funds the I did a rough you know very rough back seated the pants scratch it out look about a half a million dollars give or take but that included um yeah that included your long route 15 you've got to deal with the state you're close to the right of way um they're good people to work with but they're very tight in terms of controls on route 15 um I'd rather come back with a good estimate um but it's the kind of project that we can fund ourselves we don't have to bond for we have a source of different funds we could use to find so it's really a question at some point of direction from the board as to how you want us to proceed I guess it depends on how the edc next works out to see if that's something that we do want to do and if so then it seems like inevitable you're going to have to find a way to get the infrastructure to support that I would think right right okay and that's just the water piece that's just yeah that's that that's the water piece there's a cwd project or timeline have anything to do with or does it to correlate with the edc next project and is one going to drive the other in terms of when the board needs to it's it's it's definitely a need on the part of the districts and they're going to proceed with uh the connection that and the pumps and that connection into our system um as needed cwd has a history of as debt is retired they also look at what the needs are on their horizon to basically strengthen the water system for all the communities and so they try to do a balanced rate structure that keeps rates low but builds what they need so as debt comes off they will look at projects and they've got a whole list on the capital plan like we do and then pick off those projects that are most important to them this one's on the I would call it a candidate list it's just there's been no decision yet by the board as to whether we're going to fund this or not that's all maybe two questions currently today if you're along the route 15 corridor let's say somewhere near maple fields between there and sx way if you wanted to build a one or two story building we would have the right pressure for you to get water to the second floor correct depending upon where in those properties alias right now that the other property is served by municipal water but i think that's all one story i don't think there's anything out there that's two story but that's the question we'd have to ask if someone came in the door and said we want to go to the second story we would want to measure the the pressure we'd want to measure what you need in the second story and if you don't have it you're going to be put a pressurized system so that would be on the developer now that's correct yes so without all right so beyond that it's somebody needing a pressure pump to take something up higher right which would limit density above this first floor in some parcels on some right some parcels yes just to that's the general gist of it is there's water there it's the pressure to get it up above the first floor adequately and depending upon use right so a typical apartment or whatever you have versus say a business that uses lots of water it would likely be on the ground floor versus the top and it's you know it's it's a proven science it works it's done all over the big cities in many in many places where you have five six stories or above which we're not recommending here you have to pump it up to some type of holding up on the roof and then have it come down and that provides the pressure to bathrooms in almost some hotels that are above that you have to pump it up to a reservoir tank and then let it filter back down again back in etc you're not even talking that type of height for the most part you're talking a couple stories and that's up for discussion they're not that expensive and the interesting thing is a few years ago we did a historic tour in new york city and one of the things architecture architect pointed out was these old wooden towers if you go up some of the buildings that are five six seven stories high just kind of like a wooden tower that's up there that's their that's their water storage they're pumping it from the ground floor to there and that feeds by gravity down to the people that need it and when the level drops the pump kicks on fills it up and you do it all over again so i mean that's that's turn of the century technology so this is nothing no prior century prior century yeah gravity work for you delin that's i was going to ask questions based on that so are you not is it not cost prohibitive for a developer to build along the route 15 corridor in spite of the fact that there are pressure issues there is it with is it keeping development from happening by the fact that there's low pressure in that area i wouldn't think so i wouldn't think so i think the issue may be one of the etc plan is it going to occur density it's expensive i mean if we're talking about just doing our segment of waterline at half a million dollars you're not going to find a developer go out there and spend millions of dollars and put up single family houses on a three acre lot i mean they can't buy density anyway but they just can't afford to do that it's going to have to be substantial enough to make the investment in the infrastructure and that's going to be a cost they're going to have to absorb is the extra cost of pumping okay so would you say that because of this that there should be a cap on building heights to because of the limitations or is if a developer decides to put in a pumping system within their building then there's no necessity for the cap on building heights just because of pressure i don't think water can be used as a reason to cap building height i mean that when you're talking about like i say downtown boston with 30 stories i mean it isn't it isn't the appropriate cap the cap may be one of aesthetics it may be a fire protection it may be a whole bunch of other things but i don't think you could hang the hat and say because there's a little water pressure we can't go up additional stories they can um there's a cost associated with it's not exorbitantly expensive right it's possible to do it's just that as development comes in part of our job knowing we know more about that system is going to be a look at plans to ask the question size of size of piping right what's what is the pressure going to be if you do go up three stories do you have the appropriate design in place to make it happen make it work the other thing we look at is fire suppression so if you are going to go there and have to put out a fire you need fire flow you need flow of the water and you need pressure and so the higher you go up the more of the ability we need to be able to get the water up two three stories and so it's kind of a mix and then you take that plus the ability to get our equipment close enough yet not in it to be able to to do what we need to do so it's kind of a delicate balance of where you get the water from how the flow what the pressure is and how do you regulate that pressure because pressure can be good pressure can be bad and so anybody who's built a water tower lately uh i think well about 150 foot towers well over two million dollars nowadays um and then you have to have the customers for which to charge two million dollars uh plus the maintenance and all the electrical things so it just doesn't it's not a cost effective way to do it so someone who wanted to build a building get water above the second floor is going to do a pump they're going to do a cost analysis and probably come back to you and say i need a couple more units to be able to do the cost analysis so is that it for the water piece are you going to talk about the sewer or yeah definitely okay um i don't know if it's going to go faster now i hate to take up a lot of time but we'll try um two issues under the sewer i'll deal with the first one mostly and erin can deal with the second one um the first one is sewer allocation and that's that's gross numbers on the on the sewer system and i don't know if you can pull up the sewer allocation map that's in there someplace there we go the that top one there i got a pointer i got a pointer okay a little red dot there uh oh i gotta move so i don't hear erin in the face it's a pointer here um this sewer allocation map hasn't been changed in in a number of years i know it says draft because we went back um we decided that with the etc plan coming this was about a year and a half ago maybe um my past history i worked for hamlin engineering as the as the engineer i designed the sewer system i also was responsible for setting up the allocation policy because we were required to do that by the state um as a condition of getting the money we were one of the last communities in vermont to get money for sewer systems um and then the funds dried up um and actually went to court to get the money because the town of surburn and the town of essex were in competition for the same funds and we won for whatever it's worth um but we were required to look at controlling growth in the community and keeping it so that we did not have and this is 1984 this is well before we got into growth centers and all the other stuff um they had a planner at the state who thought that this was an important issue and we agreed with her um and so we designed a system to basically take our capacity and limit our capacity to the area that we wanted growth um and the area that was chosen was based on zoning and i i'm going to go back to this because it goes as many times as i have to the sewer core follows the zoning um the sewer core doesn't define the zoning the zoning decisions drive what's in the sewer core and if you go to this the the sewer ordinance and the zoning they're consistent that um medium density residential i think if i remember correctly um allows for sewer connection municipal sewer you go to ar or ar one there's no ability to connect to sewer so these boundaries were written around the town plan in effect in 1984 and then what we figured out was who needs to connect who's got systems that are straight piping who has failed systems and over time um the areas in blue are those that have actually connected to the sewer um partway through the process we went from a million gallons a day of capacity to 1.1 million gallons a day of capacity we purchased that back in the late 1990s really 2000 wilson had an upgrade we decided to go in with them upgraded the plant we got a little more capacity um we thought honestly um i thought in 1984 and we built this that we would have this all built out by 2004 it's now 35 years later we're about 55 percent of usage yeah 50 about we're about 50 but also we have allocated capacity so we're about 80 yeah so we've allocated some capacity out we've had some people that have gotten approval purchased capacity or in the process of building but their wastewater hasn't gone into the plant yet um so we've looked at we looked at this historically in terms of um do we have capacity the important thing and it's i don't like using pointers but let me see if i can do it this way the important thing was the growth area under this town plan was over here in the sacks and hill industrial park if you think back to 1984 what was high in 1984 IBM industrial growth wanting to build vermont with clean industry it was not 2019 conditions have changed so this area was where there was a lot of capacity put and there's a gravity sewer that comes down here that comes to a pump station that then pumps up into the village this gravity sewer is fed by a series of gravity sewers up in this part of town but the town center area over here is fed by a pump it feeds into a pump station that we call the lang farm pump station the one where we had the force main problem about there so all the sewage that comes in from the town center gets pumped into that pump station as well as some of the residential development down here comes into that pump station then it gets pumped up to a pump station up here called heritage estates then it gets pumped from heritage estates to a pump station over here called alder lane then it gets pumped up from alder lane down sand hill road gravity flow into this pump station and then from this pump station into the village so we're taking everything this way but the size of pipes and capacity were set by this being the growth area this was never thought of in 1984 as being where are we going to put our future growth times have changed now the future growth is planned for here by the etc plan and the town plan and the town plan and and what we found over here is that what's been going in for businesses has been warehouses or down here solar panels solar panels don't use a whole lot of sewage or water or water so there's capacity that's assigned in this in this study fair amount of capacity for industrial commercial development it's not going to be it's not going to take place so the question is there's capacity in various parts of the system that can be freed up and there's some some numbers to look at that it's easy to free and southern out so we had them we had hamlin look at this because they've got the computer model they inherited it after I left they've continued to use it we've asked them to update it so this doesn't involve just the etc plan it involves the whole town as well looking at our infrastructure looking at another 20 years where are we and then we when we got all done with that we had that kind of an answer we then went back and said okay now that we've got the etc plan what if you superimpose on the changes that we've talked about more growth out here how does that affect our capacity issues and there's a couple different ways and this gets really confusing but there's a couple different ways to look at it one way is to look at it from a theoretical point of view that says every one of these we use 200 gallons per day for equivalent user and we've tried to make the map we have made the map equal when you add up all these parcels and all the numbers that are on the maps they equal 1.1 million gallons per day so the number of eu's on this map equals 1.1 million gallons per day our capacity so from a planning theoretical give out capacity you want to keep that relationship so that you are not over committing on paper what you have as a as a finite resource and we're probably not going to get a whole lot more out of the musky river in the future so our capacity is what it is so we've got we've got those numbers available to be able to be used against the system but one way to do it is based on EU and theoretical the other way is to look at what we've actually experienced on flow and we found as people have come online more recently than in the past low flow fixtures smaller families less sewage so we actually have some inherent built in safety factors in our capacity numbers which is actually a good thing because I know some of you've been on the board longer than others but we've come repeatedly to on a parcel under the ordinance to say I've only got two eu's or 400 gallons per day but I want to put up three apartments and I need 600 gallons per day can you give us that additional capacity and the answer is yes because we have it so there's always a safety factor I think built in that the select board wants to reserve in their back pocket for those kind of things that safety factors fairly significant so if you look at it if you look at the at the system you look at the pumps you look at the pipes and you take it out for the next 20 years you can apply two numbers the theoretical large number or maybe the actual low number and the truth of the matter is the real number it's somewhere in between the two of them so on the low end if you use the real numbers our system is in really pretty good shape there's not a whole lot of improvements that have to be made to it and if you keep out the etc changes it'll do what it was supposed to do okay if you go to the theoretical number the higher number you run into some problems along the line and a couple of locations up in here and at the various pump stations because you start to reach their capacity and I want to get into how you calculate capacity but it's calculate a little bit different it's not just an average it's a peak hour during the day and the state has certain numbers but you reach capacity on some of those stations this means you either have to switch out pumps switch out impellers or other other work and that's in the report that's in the hamlin study so there's and then we said okay when you get all done with that throw etc on top of that where does that bring us and what it says is that etc kind of creates some additional problems because the growth that was planned to go here with larger pipes is now going up here so we took a look at that and said well what do you do and there's a couple things that you can do with that one is the theoretical number on how many eues in the whole system and for example and I'm just going to give you one example because there's some that we gave you in the written material this was 91 eues if I remember correctly where the the solar is going that's not going to be used transfer that up here provide the capacity where you want and there's a few other parcels Darren and Dana were helpful we looked at some of the parcels we looked at Darren looked deeply into some of them when there's wetlands there's other configurations where there's a certain number of eues then in reality they're never going to be able to build out because the land isn't going to allow them to build it out so you can very easily transfer some now it doesn't get us all but it gets a lot of it that was a first iteration we since got back in the second iteration and there's probably with a little bit of tweaking we may have to go back to some of the users that have been designated capacity and let's say they've been designated a large number maybe you've got to cut that by five percent that doesn't mean they don't have capacity it just means when they when they need if they need to go to that level they're going to have to come into the select board to go into that reserve capacity so it doesn't prohibit them from doing what they want to do all it does is says you've got to take another step and there's some good reasons to do that too because in in the sewer allocation policy if you want more capacity than you've been allocated you've got to you've got to identify how that fits into the town plan if somebody if you have 100 eues out here now and you want to come in for 100 eues there's no question we approve it it's done but if they want to come in at 130 they've got to go to the select board and they've got to justify why they want that at the third right there's a threshold for that threshold so that's important in terms of how the select board it's your planning document in terms of how you want to control future growth so it's really important to do that so we could go on all night about this but I'm not going to but I think that the point is that there are ways to switch that allocation from where it is today or where it was in in the last time this was updated which is in the early 1990s I think and bring it into this area if the board wants to designate that this is going to be a higher growth area than it is today now there are some options one of the one of the options that I mentioned in there that's true is this could be kind of a negotiation the whole zone between the planning commission and the select board meaning select board could come back and say well we've got almost all of it but maybe we don't have quite the quite enough to fill this zone to make the map work well maybe what you have to do then is say we're going to change a little similar proposed densities out here in terms of the planning process to drop them slightly a slight change might give you another 20 or 30 eu that you could then use to make the numbers come out correctly so it's an iterative process it could be done all by switching some that are logical taking some away that are logical or could come about by saying well maybe in some of these areas we don't want as high a density as what's in the ETC plan that's not the engineer's decision to make that's planning commission that's select board in terms of how you want to handle that from an engineering perspective either doing it that way or modifying this we can get the capacity into that zone but it does have some specific impacts when you do that and that's Aaron's infrastructure impacts infrastructure impact so we've looked at some options you want me to do you want I do it I don't care I'll fill in when you fill in when I get tired of talking the one of the things we looked at is the land farm pump station is no matter what we do is at or near capacity so we're going to have to do something in the next if you go to the reports somewhere in the next five years we've got to do something to that pump station probably sooner than later it's it's almost there now and it's it's whether you want to realize the capacity at the calculated values as Dennis said or the actual values like he said it's somewhere in between and we're right there length farm station is kind of at the cost of needing to get some things done and when you buy these stations you buy them we they're all Smithland office all the ones in the village is Smithland office very good company we decided to standardize them hopefully they never go out of business but we standardize them so that we would make sure that every development came in we weren't stocking different repair parts and different manufacturers and you know baloney and they're a quality company so we've done that but the land farm pump station the one here is small you can buy the command the pump stations and various diameters that's a small one the one for I won't go up but the one that's farther couple down the system they have three pumps in they're bigger all the way they're bigger you could just keep throwing bigger pumps in there because there's a lot of room this one there's not a lot of room and this one's already gone through two two upgrades changing impellers impellers improving pumps because we never envisioned in 1984 that that kind of development was going to occur there wasn't part of the town plan back then so now we have a pump station nearing capacity at this location so there's a there's a couple things you could do you could replace this pump station with a larger one this takes in the sewage from this whole area would take it in from across the street alers from the soga loft property get it across the street because it already comes across from alers right yeah it comes across here by a gravity line feeds down any future growth in here would feed into this location this pump station also gets sewage from a good portion of the woodlands part of the woodlands at the very bottom goes into the village by gravity but this portion up here comes down comes into here from here that sewage is pumped in a force main up here underneath the sirk underneath the sirk out the other end and then to another pump station so you could make this bigger to make it bigger you probably got to take out the whole can and do the whole thing all over again meanwhile while that's going on you still have sewage coming down here and coming down here and it's a nightmare could be done you'd have to probably acquire more land because we only owned enough land that the pump station is located on so there's a whole the whole so that's one option and just for operational and maintenance my viewpoint i don't really have a force main underneath the sirk differential highway that was one of the issues we had a concern about here is that when this thing went dead on us you need to blow the air out and because this thing goes up and down and up and down you need to get the air out or that won't pump and we had an air release here that we were able to get at and open it was actually we had another one up by the ramp the southern ramp there up here right by the arrow do we ever find that one yep and we blew air off of that okay but but this is going underneath the sirk not not exactly a good situation but but anyway if you if you increase this pump station one of the other things is okay now this force main is fine but now you're you've got to increase the next pump station the next one down because it's all the way down the line one of the options would be that we've looked at at least on paper quickly is um and I thought of another one but you could leave this here make this a bigger pump station and then come out here break this line and take it all down here and take it by gravity into the village if the village lines will handle it okay so you could have one pump station taking everything down taking all that flow out of our pump station they're good forever really or or put another pump station up here break this line put a force main here to connect into the existing force main take this sewage flow and take it down this way so everything that's coming in from the Langfarm now comes in here or anything that ever gets developed in the course golf course would come into this one and come out down by gravity so there's some options out here that we could look at part of which involves what happens if you put that additional sewage into the village that's something that we'd like to ask Hamlin to talk to the village because Hamlin's the village engineer to see if they're okay with doing a study to see what is the impact if we took some of this sewage and dumped it down that way it is it's gravity sewer lines but what are the gravity and you have to basically go into the village's system and trace the sewage flow down through the pipes and check the capacity check the capacity is an eight inch pipe what's slope what's the capacity how many people are connected in next pipe you run the same model that they've done for us but you do it on that a line down through their system I believe it is gravity all the way through the village to the treatment plant so be acting pump station once you get it out of here you don't have to pump it again yeah I thought you were maybe talking about the capacity of the the water treatment facility that's not the case is the capacity of the carrying carrying pipes right so if if that is works if they're amenable one of things that include in the study would be what would be the cost of doing a couple of these options meaning either new pump station force main new force main here larger pump station new force main have them run some cost estimates for us to see what it's going to be like again from an allocation point of view we can handle it we can build the infrastructure to handle the additional flow but there's probably a smart way and a dumb way to go about how you get that sewage into the village and now's the time to look at it before again this gets really complicated but it's it's financially these are existing users have already paid their impact fee they shouldn't be charged if we have to put another pump station in here they've already paid their their dues right but we have their collected impact fees in the account so but if this gets developed and they haven't paid their impact fees that should go into the cost of that have offset it if we save electrical cost should some of this be borne by our replacement system costs as opposed to just impact fees so I can make that argument either way and that's we just have to look at that and and those are the things that I think from a global perspective we need to look at as you're looking at the etc and to get some direction from the board well how do you want us to proceed we have a plan but we don't want to step off and spend money without the the board's nodding their head and saying yeah go go look at this and come back to us with some answers that's it yeah and we did come up and find some rough estimates for costs for those upgrades that we just discussed on there and you have to realize that as Dennis was saying we're also impacting downstream pump stations as well and controls impeller upgrades you're talking 25 to 50 000 each station downstream on top of upgrading or installing a new station at the length site or a combination there of that scenario right there that Dennis just discussed by actually installing another small pumps or a smaller pump station in the town center area showed itself to be less of a cost than actually upgrading the existing station using the existing infrastructure and then upgrading all the downstream stations and there's money for the water work that you were talking about earlier but what about for the sewer it's the same they're commingled in the same fund they were never split apart as separate funds so um like I say there's about a million two give or take some in the impact fees and there's um 2.3 2.4 million in the other and we're putting aside significant amount each year into that account now again we're not advocating spend all that stuff down to zero that that's not the right thing to do because there's other needs in the future we're going to have um but there are funds available there to do at least pieces of this process and maybe the whole process without having a bond without having a bond and it can be done in phases it doesn't have to all be done at once same with allocation it doesn't have to all happen one false truth it can be an iterative process right okay uh lane so is the funding you're referring to a current poor in the capital budget I'm just looking at the spreadsheet that we had uh on our earlier agenda item by day I see um the cwd water life project $1.9 million um project cost can you speak into the mic a little bit please I see the um cwd waterline project is is accounted for for $1.9 million I see a village excuse me sewer pump station upgrades listed at $70,000 and $400,000 are those all separate projects from what you're discussing here and no the the well yes I know the waterline project we put that is in a placeholder because when we started the process on the capital plan about four months ago we were still working on the studies and part of the study was what if cwd put in we paid cwd to put not just that connector in that they want to connect into the land farm but really redid the whole thing so we took their cost and reported $1.9 million and put that in as a placeholder because we didn't know what was going on the cwd project will be built that project will be built without any funds that we have to put into that and so it's still identified as a project but it's a different project at a different cost and that's the way it wasn't funded because I mean it was indicated as a future project but it wasn't funded at all because we didn't know where we're going with it some of the other alternatives that we discussed that cwd had alternate routes were would have been a cost sharing between the town and cwd yep and then the other one we've been we've had an ongoing project to take two things upgrade our skata systems we've got 14 pump stations 16 now 16 pump stations to upgrade the skata to each one of the pump stations skata it's the what's the words I'm looking for it's the it's the controls yeah it's that's yeah and it communicates an acronym of some sort yeah and it's tied into the wastewater treatment plant so that there's you can at least on some of them you can actually jim can actually control how much flow he's getting from willis thinner from sx so that's that's a piece of it the other piece of it is a lot of our controls when we built our stations are downstairs power comes in upstairs controls are downstairs that means when you go down to the pump station to check the pump station you always need two people one person up top one person down below in case there's a problem it's a confined space I think it's confined space right for potential for engulfment yes so if the controls are brought up and you're checking if you're out there to check controls you don't necessarily have to go down and the controls are in a better environment up top than they are sitting 20 feet down in a wet semi wet environment so we're trying to take each pump station and gradually move and that's that other project is to move those controls up top over time that's for the stations that are only to dry well wet well types because we've got a few of them that are to pump a little bit differently I guess what I would really like to see some more detail on the funding that we currently have set aside the where it's coming from what it this is a newbie question for me the impact fees I just would like to see the dollar amounts we have how long it took for them to build up and what if anything else is projected to be used to spend on to use out those funds to spend on so I guess I would be like a little bit more detail okay so this is the work that would need to be done if the etc if we decide to have that come to fruition um you're not are you done with the part that you wanted to to talk about for the time being and it's really great to have um Dennis and Aaron here tonight because you can really see how integrated growth growth center planning is with infrastructure planning and um as Dennis has alluded to there are policy decisions that are going to need to be made um since the late 80s has envisioned this area as a growth center um because that is when the yeah 1988 1989 or when the um when act a law called act 200 was enacted and that um provides that Vermont Vermont communities will grow in a compact settlement form um surrounded by open productive countryside is our ideal so we're trying to stay in a in a compact form and in some cases that may get closer and denser and in some cases it may involve going up and to do some of those things we need this end of it there is one thing I do want to mention Max just that it's important because the pump station for example the Langfarm pump station yes we need to think about making decisions within the next six months to a year what we don't want to do is replace pumps out there at maybe a cost of 25 or 30 000 dollars a pump so now we've got 60 000 dollars invested and then the decision is made we are going to go ahead with etc and that's the tough part is that we don't want to make an incorrect decision that costs the town money long term where we're wasting money by have to be different decision I guess we just wasted sixty seven thousand six or seventy thousand dollars can't afford to do that no so I think the board would all agree that economic development is a vital piece of what's needed here and the etc is addressing that portion of that and in order to support that economic development investment in infrastructure is in is inevitable I think right and you're looking to just see if we're all agreeing that economic development is important in supporting the growth in in the town center does anybody have any reaction to that I'm just curious what you mean exactly by economic development do you mean bringing businesses here or do you mean bringing residents here or both and in what growing the grand list right if you want a greater diversified tax base you need to grow the grand list I think right bring in businesses and need to improve the infrastructure to a point where you can improve the diversity of both businesses and residences right and you have to also provide evidence to potential developers that the town is investing in itself in itself in order to encourage them to also invest any other comments on this okay so but Irene finish I'm thinking about some new buildings for Pearl Street some of the wunoski development where they have this thing we've been talking about now for maybe 20 years where you have the business downstairs and you have residential upstairs what's the ratio that's a correct I just see so many empty storefronts in traditional buildings but also in these newer buildings and I wonder if we have the critical mass of population to populate oh and Seneca is just building what three storefronts now in front of all his griffin lane development how do we prevent the storefronts from remaining empty for a really long time is there a way to make sure that we're not overbuilding the storefronts when we build residential on top well we we tried to do the ratio within the atc so that you would have mixed use in every single building and that just simply didn't work there wasn't enough demand for commercial and residential up top that's been changing in in the intervening years but as far as how can we make sure that the the storefronts you know don't stay out you know aren't empty you know some of these are decisions you know market decisions that the the developers are going to have to make on the road as part of their investment decisions and we have to trust that they know what they're doing the other thing that we are thinking about in the etc planning process is making sure that we're encouraging building forms that are flexible enough to adapt to the changing markets so you know an office you know ground floor retail may not be retail but it might be an office it might be entertainment it can morph into different things or it could even turn to residential if needed we're actually hearing that that might happen in some of the properties that formerly had offices in the town center so the point is not to you know anticipate it's going to be this mix of commercial and residential but that the forms and the buildings that are there can adapt to what I was going to actually occupy them follow on I think about these quirky new england towns and you've got an old bookstore in an older house and you've got a consignment clothing store in another older building and and there are a lot of vendors that I can imagine in a new england environment that can afford to be in an energy efficient high tech very cool looking downstairs of new residential development they need to be to make their finances work in different places and so again I would just beg you please don't set us up for empty storefronts in new buildings because I think there's a diversity that needs to happen and like I said I can just keep naming buildings that I see that are vacant and it's frustrating to me the plan will allow for some quirkiness and adaptation yeah I just wanted to I guess ask for clarification it seems to me that on both the water and the sewer thing you said there were things that you wanted to do in spite of whether etc happened or not I just want to make sure that we're not not that we are hearing what you're asking for because I think you asked us to do things in the near term in spite of whatever happens with with etc am I wrong or did I I think you're right I'm I look at the town's infrastructure and I think that what we've now identified is that there is some benefit to existing users and customers let's take the water to take out that old six inch and put a 12 inch and connect those two points together and that whether you go farther on route 15 or not probably depends upon etc but that first piece no I think it should be done and so we should arrange to have it scoped designed cost it out obviously through a process you know to get approval for each one of those steps but I think that's that's needed I think we need to look at that particular pump station and decide is there a better way to take the sewage number one that's irrespective of etc that's a that's a study with the village to see what what if we can make it work the other direction that's a some earliest cost estimates as to what would it take to do that and maybe some soil borings and I've even thought I didn't talk to Aaron but I was looking at the man today there's another route that we might be able to use that might save us a few dollars the lang farm line that comes down by gravity you might be able to straight up that with a force many other direction stay away from sx way so there's there's some things we need to talk about but yes do I think we need to approach that and say what makes the most sense for the future for that pump station and we should be doing that now getting some studies out and that kind of a follow up to what we've done we've learned some things so let's take what we've learned and take it to another step and before we reach a point we come back and say fund this project we need answers for you and but we need to get more details to get those answers but yes then the other questions maybe would come about as as a second piece to that that do involve etc what happens other sections of the water line do we go farther with that that's kind of an etc thing do we really start to build one of these pump stations that maybe is an etc thing but at least get us to a point when giving the answer back to say hey the least cost alternative for that pump station is this and we've got it well scoped out and what do you guys want to do I think if I'm right I think any saying that if there's something that needs to be done regardless it ought to be done as long as if the impact of having etc happen would impact that piece then you know we want to make sure there's at least we do a smart we don't have to redo it yeah that that and I don't want I don't want you to have the impression that don't do anything until we decide whether etc is happening I want to make sure that there are some things that need to happen that please come back and ask you came with a purpose I just have an open discussion and and then a follow-up as to how you want us to proceed maybe at a later time but you know we can we can come back and say with a proposal and say here's what we'd like to do on each one of these things in more detail yeah we'd like we'd like to see that if as you think the timing is appropriate um we don't have to wait so it needs to be done you let us know and we'll talk about it yes absolutely yeah absolutely good um any other question any night oh I just wanted to get back to what Irene was talking about I could not agree with you more about the concerns about affordability of retail space and I think that it's not necessarily in the planning commission's hands or the planning department's hands because the developers have to balance their costs with you know what they perceive is to be the right market mix but on the other hand the one way we could conceivably work on keeping those costs down for the developers to make sure we're not imposing too many design standards or imposing too many requirements and on the code side but also that's saying you know there are vacancies especially in downtown a six junction which has a different you know they've got the four stories with the retail on the bottom maybe that's going to be a little different out in the town um I think we're a little retail heavy right now what we need is the housing and there's a lot of retail space that isn't being filled because like you said those mom and pop businesses cannot afford to move into new spaces and landlords are looking for the right mix of the kind of tenant who can afford to pay the rents that they have to charge to make up the cost of their building so it sounds like we're going to hear back from you guys soon when you're ready six months or whatever you know it'll be sooner than that okay well be tomorrow morning but it'll be sooner than that they're carefully asked for it and then uh Dana um when will we see the next update on etc do you think when you have something uh this summer as things sort of get going with the planning commission we'll give you a um a weather report yeah we'd like to be kept updated this is an important important piece of our town it really is yeah so thanks for working on it appreciate it thanks for uh looking at all the infrastructure thank you guys excellent good discussion thank you thanks sewer rocks they're needed okay great discussion but we're going to move on now to uh business item six d between rocking and uh that's going to be you're looking for an approval approval of an easement for relocating some easements at five freemen woods yes um darren sure and i'm going to have um camera wailin from black rock construction join me up here to answer any questions that come up so um this just want to also say thank you to the planning commission for all the work you guys are doing and and this whole project too so thank you i'm also just going to take a sec and talk to you walle pull up the plans so you can see what's going on um so this is a development project on freemen woods which is off of vestix way just south of the cirque um that was approved by the planning commission last year there were some existing easements of various uh shapes and colors that um were on the property already because it's been developed in several phases over the years um because the new development will actually go over a lot of those easements we need to the developer needed to move them around so that we could actually accommodate it so to give you a quick overview um this this is freemen woods road this is an extension that will has been built and will be eventually transferred to the town to accommodate um to serve the um memory care facility and the assisted living facility and the condos that are here um this square in the middle was part of the five freemen woods property this entire um development is now being transferred to the ined Essex um in order to allow them to do a 27 unit apartment building here that's um market rate units and uh open to anybody but geared towards a slightly older demographic to sort of fit into this area um because they're actually building over the site of several easements they needed to relocate them one is a stormwater easement um which there's a big stormwater pond here that serves this entire development and the end um and it retains storm water in the peak flow and there's a whole network of um pipes that sort of serve that those are being relocated there is also um a sewer main that runs through here it's 30 feet on the ined Essex parcel it was 20 feet on the black rock side that's staying in place not changing at all but it overlaps with two other easements um it is a 70 foot wide pedestrian and parking easement that was put in when the town uh acquired this parcel on the south east known as freemen woods um and allowed people to actually park and go walk in that public parcel um because the new parking lot will be built roughly in this area and the building will be right here obviously we can't let people park there the same way they used to so instead um the developers have relocated the trail easement to go from the cul-de-sac of freemen woods down around the top of the stormwater pond and into the public parcel freemen woods and they're also offering um six shared parking spaces or six spaces within the shared parking agreement between um the apartment building in the ined Essex for the public to use they're not designated they're just you know anybody can come and use any of them so that's the gist of what we're um putting before you the reason we needs to come to the select board is that these are easements that are held by the town so it's technically a conveyance of real estate the town attorney advise us to get your approval and also um post that we are intending to convey these easements uh or exchange them uh through the statutory process which requires a 30-day appeal period so that's what we're asking from you today is to uh approve the exchange and the relocation of easements as described um including the relocation agreement which you have a copy of in your packets and authorize uh the town manager to execute these changes after the appeal period has expired what's the downside for for the town to have this exchange are we losing any you know amount of easement or amount of parking uh we might be losing a slightly you know some area of parking overall but um the benefit is that we don't have to maintain and grab a lot anymore um it's going to be maintained by the developer it's going to be paved um and it will be much easier to see they're also putting in signage uh saying here's how to get to the Freeman Woods parcel they're actually building a gravel trail um here so they're not just giving us the easement they're actually building us um the infrastructure to access that safely um so I would say overall this is a gain even if there's maybe a slight loss of space and control by the town we're also gaining the apartment building and 27 new housing units so depending on how you look at that that's a plus or minus but we think it's a plus it was not proposed we did um talk about that about that with developers and in terms of their project and the scoping and maybe you can speak to more of this Ben or uh but it just didn't pan out for them it's not the market they were looking for with the existing community and I'm sort of filling in for Ben who would normally be here if he was on a late flight um the existing community is all private pay that's controlled by out-of-state REITs it's intended to be sort of that mid to higher end market location it really didn't feel appropriate to try and go after affordable housing density or anything like that um we are doing some other stuff in Essex that'll involve that but not specifically you guys um so now it wasn't really considered the other challenge with it is the economic viability um it's sort of one of those things where 27 unit apartment building the size and scope with some underbuilding parking the cost models and this is where I can speak to it a little better uh the cost models don't work out great with a compressed revenue stream uh so it's sort of either look at affordable and don't do it or don't do affordable and bring something to the community it does create um it is an apartment building but it is targeted towards seniors um active seniors but it does sort of fill out the entire campus over there of the full spectrum which is what we've been looking at a CCRC as a continuing care retirement community which includes the full spectrum of independent assisted living in ALZ and a lot of studies show that aging in place is a huge benefit um for seniors as we all get older um so if you stay in the same location as you unfortunately progress through those levels you have a much better quality of life so that's really what we've been looking at is the the individuals who are likely to occupy this are likely to occupy the Alzheimer's facility the dementia care facility as well so while the affordable component is always sort of something we look at economic viability is a huge driver and then also just the practical who's going to be here who's going to be occupying it and how to fit in to what we've already done and another element of our town plan that this does fill out really nicely is Kim said is having a diversity of housing types so you have a rental you have condos that you would own you've got assisted living and congregate care so having those options all within one town and in one small area is really advantageous from a housing perspective as well and being able to fill these units with market rate um renters can open up some lower end rental units elsewhere so it all fits into the bigger picture it's just not necessarily guaranteeing that right here right now can you speak to when and where and how I can look forward to seeing about your next affordable housing project because they are few and far between in this town correct um so the town center project will hopefully give us the density and the control over um how development is done to maybe do a little more affordable housing we're batching some of the regulatory changes that we've learned about from the affordable housing audit that the regional planning commission did with the etc uh regulations the new ones that we'll be doing so some of the common sense things like looking at the density bonuses to make sure that they're actually a viable for a developer they would actually want to use um and making sure that the densities are high enough to make the projects um feasible from an affordability perspective um we may look at some level of inclusionary zoning or some other requirements or at least you know strong incentives for uh affordable housing it may not happen with the town center regulations right away but it's going to be coming soon after that um and we're also starting to think about um so we're working on a housing needs assessment to say okay how many housing units do we need to provide in order to um really fit our needs in town and where is that going to happen so there may be other strategies that's not just saying we want designated affordable units in this spot it might be let's partner with shampkin housing trust buy up existing units that um we can keep out an affordable rate instead of creating new ones yeah uh page four of the document that we were given wouldn't open on my tablet but but greg sent it to me and i was able to open can you it's got all it's got i think it's got the build out in it or the yeah the new proposed can you get that out here sorry i shouldn't pull that up earlier explain what what what everything is in there yeah sorry that when i flipped around it lost the lost the page we're down into the minutes don't need to get there yet oh you're in the okay if you go back to the um you started page 97 oh okay tell me where i can see if i'm here it's 60 so yeah it might be it's it takes a little large takes a little time to roll because there's a lot there's a lot going on on this plan i apologize for the complexity so i do want to go through and tell you what's changing and where everything is helpful thank you yeah and just want to let it catch up with us so um this is the building that's going to be built this is the parking area uh where the town will be um entitled to six spaces the storm water pond here um a lot of the easements and the drainage pipes that are moving will come out from this direction and through here um there's one that goes diagonally this way and feeds out to the rest of the system the trail easement zoom in real quick is going to be alongside the um driveway the entrance to the underground parking here um so this is the 15 foot wide easement the path will actually be narrower than that but it will run along the top of the storm water pond along the side of the building and then um down into the town's parcel the conservation and trails committee and staff and myself and parks and director went out with ben and sort of scoped out um this path and it looks fine from a usability perspective it looks like it goes through the pond though is that it looks like it but the area of the the area of the pond easement is bigger than the pond itself um because it includes the berm over which the top of the trail will go i know it looked confusing to me at first and i was like how are we going to do that i remember going across that on the the zipline two of my boys worked there a couple summers but uh and then you said there was a piece of land is transferring from someone is it the land from the unit sx to black rock other way around so the yellow area here is going from black rock to the unit sx because black rock had used up more of its density than it could viably utilize here so who's building the building black rock is building the building on the unit sx's land using the in's density because they're only commercial and they don't have any residential there yet overall the density is kind of the same no matter how you cut it it's just legally what they could do according to the zoning regulations and it will also be on a footprint lot um so but i don't know how you're running the building going into the future but i understand it'll be sort of separate from either black rock or um the unit sx so it's a series of the whole thing is a pud so it's all footprint lots and they're fancy legal term exclusive use limited apartment common areas so it's a lot without being a lot it's common land but it's restricted to the exclusive use of the occupier of that common land uh no that was it thank you thank you it was a big picture it took it took a while to open it i should have compressed it down for any of my apologies any other uh questions or concerns about this i'm concerned because i joke that my parents are the pension generation and i'm the Pepsi generation at some point we're going to run out of people that can afford high-end housing so i can't stress enough we've got to be looking to supply housing for the rest of us thank you well there's a housing study being looked at right we're working on it to see what those needs are and see where we are if we're in balance or out of balance and what needs to be changed okay like i said the preliminary results from that at least from a rental perspective are there's only so much we can do to encourage affordable rental housing even if we do inclusionary zoning it's going to be a challenge to get it in um the better thing the we can't we don't have control over is to increase incomes and make them more in line with what the housing costs are around here hard thing to do but um that's the rental side we'll take a look at the home ownership side next okay well support's pleasure on this transfer easements and there should be a motion in your memo because it makes it really small because the picture the way the pictures are oriented it changes the i got it i got it i do it i move that the select board authorized unified manager to execute the proposed easement agreement with black rock nl fw llc and black rack sx fw llc subject to the provisions of 24 vsa 1061 section 1061 did i step on you now second i'm sorry thank thank you any further discussion about authorizing uh event to execute this uh easement agreement okay hearing none all those in favor signify by saying aye aye opposed the motion passes unanimously thank you thank you good luck when will that housing study be done it's on the back burner right now because we're working on the town center regulations but it's the next thing on the list and i'm trying to sort of move it along in the background as i have spare time but we will certainly be working on it in earnest um within the next year as etc is wrapping up okay i think we'd all loved it see see that okay good thank you darin thanks very much all right we're going to move on to business item six e and that's a prep for town meeting greg just a quick rundown update on where we stand with time meeting preparations um select board outreach schedule has been finalized there's some q and a info sheets for you that were in the packet to review um those are some of the changes uh to the firearms ordinance that were handed out earlier um to go over those ones well i'll come back to the q and a in a second um the assistance of the managers organizing informational tables for town meeting night the community dinners been scheduled uh senior bus child care are advertised um andy pulled together venture crews 66 89 s ex-junction um she's a co-ed arm of scouting that's going to do the flag ceremony uh darby um got the select chorus from the albert delottan intermediate school that's going to be performing the national anthem and dinner is set up um the q and a sheets there's uh two of them at this point one of them is about the proposed budget um it's pretty pretty standard for what we've done the past few years just with new numbers a few updates in terms of budget goals objectives the other piece uh the other q and a is about the firearms ordinance changes and as i said i was brought to my attention that um the language shouldn't necessarily be that the select board plans to make any changes so much as it's they've discussed them so um appreciate all very good changes thank you back i got on that thank you for for reaching out um but happy to take any other comments on either of those q and a is also working on a q and a about the governance piece and where that stands um had hoped to have it for you hope i do hope to have it for you um for the joint meeting on wednesday i'm still shipping away at it awesome that's going to be a joint well since it is a joint thing won't the trust use to be able to weigh in on it as well so that is on its way it won't be ready obviously for uh the meeting or for the the outreach event tomorrow but you'll have the other two okay great um questions all right so do you want this to give these to you privately or now if we have tweaks what's your preference i guess it's um well treated similar to the minutes if it's uh minor grammatical stuff i can just take them if it's substantial or substantive um i think it's worth bringing up to the entire board you have um a lot of them on the firearms we talked about the police chief but i think there was a then police chief and then a current police chief and i just i thought maybe that's worth just being more careful how we use that phrase right because the former police chief did some stuff in 2015 but that i think we're still referring to his findings in the next paragraph and i wouldn't want someone to think that was rick gary it wasn't which which number are you on number two sorry i can say at the select on them at the top paragraph on page two about halfway through that at the select board's discretion the police chief reviewed i can say the police chief at the time and chief gary is so that he he supports and agrees with the what the chief understood understood everybody okay with that and then next paragraph they also say reference of police chief and again i think that's the former police chief's findings or the fire balloons yeah anything else the firearms everybody okay with the firearms one more the firearms yeah um on number two please look at that first paragraph this was a meaty thing um i think the firearms discharge ordinance task force actually had 19 recommendations in my mind book that's more than several so maybe multiple recommendations thanks anything else on firearms and just just the question of whether there's any way to get it on one page so it doesn't just have that you know quarter quarter of the second page one side i could reduce the font we've uh increased them in the past you know there's been talk about just his ability to make sure they're they're readable when you make it two columns you can often save a lot of space and if you push out your margins you can probably do it if possible yeah it also could be that this is the edited version maybe that's why it's it's a good point but but if it if it compresses just a little bit and doesn't quite get to a second i'd hate to see a single page with just a couple lines on it great anything else uh what about the other one the um budget one all right so i would just suggest at the end of the number three which is at the top of page two we mentioned the community justice center and the community outreach program but i just wondered if you wanted to put in parentheses what those things are for the average person who might not have encountered them along the way especially the outreach program which is brand new um Howard center to me says burlington so if we could say some a few words in front of this is it tell people what it is it's a local on the streets whatever um community justice center a restorative blah blah blah you know just just so people who don't know those terms might have a chance of parsing what we're going at um and then at the end of number six we talk about the 70 30 rule which seems to be our new golden standard if we could have an additional sentence talking about how that ensures or that aims to ensure that people no matter where they live are paying as equal amount as possible toward consolidated entities or something well i have concerns with that because the only way to make everybody pay the same is to make it a hundred percent of a town funded because the matter there is no percentage that makes it equal other than 100 to zero um so i'm i'm a little concerned i wouldn't wouldn't say i mean i'm i'm okay with saying this this is the intent is to to balance things balance things more but it certainly does not make them equal unless you're a hundred percent i agree i just don't know where people are gonna think those numbers came from so or what their aim is so if you could do something that satisfies all of us okay any others i agree sorry um in number eight it talks about eight weeks of operating expenses and we always tend to say for use in an emergency and i didn't know if we could just use that sort of boilerplate language here for the public also because they be like why would you need eight weeks of expense you know thanks that's it instead of saying eight weeks of operating expenses it's saying that that money's there for an emergency right if something works there eight weeks of no i'm just i'm just agreeing with what you said i'm just trying to explain to mike mike do you have a problem with that do you want something different i'm not sure what's wrong with eight weeks well it's true it's eight weeks but it it's really if something were to happen and we our funds were all cut off we could only operate for eight weeks that's really what it that eight weeks means right and i don't know if that's obvious to the folks that says if our funding gets cut all we can do is eight weeks of service and then we're done i think that's what i agree was trying to say i'm just trying to say in an emergency like i don't know why people would think eight weeks like so you know because most of us don't expect a disaster or at least i didn't used to expect a disaster till i had a hurricane named after me um well isn't isn't it a gap recommended um general accounting practice target would that be a better way to say as per you know gap or general accounting practice because that's that's what defined these numbers right there's a standard out you'd have to make sure that it actually is a recommendation by somebody like that i don't know if it is i think they recommend us they recommend having a surplus they actually recommend higher so it is a recommend it is a specific recommendation from it depends on your so we weren't some stating something is a fact that we were so i would just i'm not in the cap i don't i don't i don't foresee the question being that in depth so in terms of having to go in depth of every reason why you ever reserve anything else on the budget one looks good thank you for uh for getting those together and we have the first of anything andy and iran have one tomorrow so how many copies do you want of stuff yeah because i wouldn't build ahead too far because in case we go oh we people were asking about something then we might want to update the q and a and you know we don't want to throw out a big stack and then do another so about 50 would be good okay good and the dinners all said even though the the high school has vacation right but they're they're always ready to to take care of it on that monday for us so that's good and the start time is the same as always as per charter okay andy um for the last three years we've handed out a little questionnaire the first year we did it we got 36 responses the second year we did it we forgot to assign somebody the responsibility to collect them afterwards so we got zero last year um we got one response so i'm wondering and i i i i just bring it up because right do we want to do it again or do we want to abandon that for now i don't know we had it was a pretty simple questionnaire of you know what did you like about town meeting you know what do we do well what do we do poorly i would i would love to hear back from people we got we as i said we got one response last year because we did what do you think happened that we only got one i don't know i don't know i think it would be worth i i i don't think we actually said out loud during the meeting that there's a questionnaire we depreciate your your feedback and there's a box in the back to collect them or something like that so that because i we didn't ask people that love to fill it out last year i can add that to my welcome piece that i do and and but i'd love to have that because i think it's important for the support you know it you know it was good feedback to get when we got it i would also hazard a guess that people would prefer to take them home and fill them in and then send them rather than doing it right there on the spot so if you're looking to get people to do it right there on the spot keep it short yeah i think it's really it was three questions yeah that's a good point i'm afraid mike if they take it home that will probably never see it no i i know that i'm just offering a reasoning about why keep it simple about why you're not getting the response or why we're not getting the response we'd like to see i can tweak the page a little bit i used it usually came on the same page as um a little info about robert's rules of orders i can put try to put something up top or note on there please pay attention to the please note the survey and distribute at the end we could also as kathy just suggested um consider some sort of incentive for people to drop it off little nicknag or something box chocolates just gave him a free meal it seems to be the leading candidate um should it be on a separate piece of paper though right it used to come on it was um there's a two-page sheet with robert's rules of order and what some of the definitions are and it was on the bottom of that page or or make would it be okay to do it on a separate sheet of paper of a specific color so that they you know it stands out and i can mention it by its specific color even what about incentives is there any incentive thing he's a chocolate or something in the village we've done a survey and george has said don't forget to do the survey and usually there's also a Doyle poll and people are used to seeing that so if you do it in tandem like don't forget your Doyle poll don't forget we have a little town poll that might be okay i'll add that to the welcome but i think a separate page do you think a separate page would be wise and a distinctive color because they don't need to take robert's rules home with them right and he looks skeptical but everyone else is i think okay okay all right good okay good i'll even volunteer to try to collect them at the end actually well i got to catch a plane at 5 30 the next morning i got you covered andy okay so you'll take responsibility to collect them thank you and appreciate that everybody working together that's great okay then if there's nothing else for the prep is there anything else that we need to talk about on that okay we're good okay super all right then uh i guess we'll move on to the approval of the minutes of i would move approval of the minutes of january 2019 special meeting second okay let's start at page one line 58 it says miss runner but i believe it was miss haney encouraged the select board and um i don't i know that you've said this several times here but i think it's the trustees only that plan a housing committee i don't think our board ever committed to having a housing committee so maybe i'm sorry can we what why are you sorry 58 on page two of january 2nd 2018 so rather than implement the plan i'd like to just say a point that you urge us to appoint a housing committee i'm sorry i'm stuck on the could us warn both boards agreed to pursue that at a at a given time that was best for staff capacity so um i don't think we committed to i think we were interested in learning about what that would be and we were waiting for the uh feedback from ccr pc i think that's how i recall yeah i would request if staff could track down exactly what both boards decided on that i'm positive the trustees agreed to form a committee and i thought the select board had agreed as well but if we could just identify where that stands that would be useful information anyway um and honestly i'm not sure if that was me that said that i mean if you remember that correctly or if you saw the video and it was me then yes let's please make the change um it stuck with me because it was a second time i urge to say something that effect and both times i've kind of recoiled that i've heard that set of trustee meetings but not said here that we we do not yet plan to implement housing committee but it's fine for you to encourage us to appoint one but my question is are you asserting that i said that because i'm afraid i don't recall it so it's in early january and i'm assuming you watch the video um i didn't need to watch the video because i remembered it okay so you okay with it yes all right so chains miss run into miss haney um 58 and then encourage the select board to appoint as opposed to implement sure and not and not planned because we don't plan to do that yet but i understand that you want us to do it and so that's fine you can urge us to do whatever but well it's just my understanding is that agreement has been made but i could do wrong thanks anything else on two okay then let's go to page three larry line 96 please i just like to insert the word town and i believe this is what mr. wad said that the first transfer of town money to the s extension library appeared in 1914 yes thanks uh yeah i know right where it is okay i'm looking right at it um yeah i'm fine with that yep okay anything else on three all right uh just workers calm not work man's calm what what line 26 128 okay got that everybody okay okay then page four page five all right on 199 please it says storm salaries i presume it's storm water salaries at the end of the line yeah okay sure uh ounce of five page six all right so this is a sheet that i hand out separately because i just thought it would be cleaner if you could actually see my proposed change on t 63 and t 64 no way it would read would say she also requested that the abc d list of expenses more clearly show the math on page 202 and wondered how often public works calibrates its salt spreaders okay okay and then on line 277 at the bottom it would now say miss renner wondered if this could be an opportunity to purchase equipment together noting the percentage owned by each municipality in the same way personnel have been when they were shared between departments okay page seven page eight okay all those in favor of the january 2nd 2019 select board minutes with corrections signify by saying hi i pose you now see i remove approval of the select board special meeting minutes of monday january 7th 2019 with select board modifications thank you five second on that second okay page one hurry line 47 at the bottom is this a cwd waterline i can't imagine anything else that those what the month 15 cwd waterline 47 does that make sense yeah okay okay page two page three are you on line 130 i think it was $15,000 not a $1,500 annual contribution to the contra conservation fund 15,000 okay okay page four okay all those in favor of the january 7th 2019 select board minutes with corrections signify by saying hi hi post okay motion passes unanimously thank you i mean i have new approval of the january 23rd select board minutes for the year 2019 with select board member corrections second okay we're on page one page two all right line 88 we're missing the motion passed five zero at least i think everybody approved it um that's that's oh yeah you're right it is missing yeah i think that was anonymous and i want to shout out to kathy these are really nice not to have these motions in all caps anymore it's so much easier to read and that's actually shout out to thank you waited a long time for that so you have that on 88 then the the motion okay or the vote all right page three are you line 114 same change okay and that was unanimous as well i believe right yes it was okay page four page five page six are you another shout out to kathy for coping with all these amazing changes to the minutes there was just one extra word on line 244 the word to does not belong in that change so if that could come out it says change to the to am the first one yeah okay page seven and lastly page eight okay all those in favor of the january 23rd 2019 select board minutes with corrections signify by saying hi i pose okay motion passes unanimously but i have a motion to approve consent agenda is all right all right second thank you and then marine so um yeah any comments handy thank you for the letter of support for the soft governance pilot proposal i'm very timely too really yeah it's good okay are you really happy we don't have to require business owners to leave their this is a business to come in unless there's a problem and the staff time to track them down and it's it's an incentive right if there's no zero issues then that's a good good we don't see them but since we say that we take it seriously i think even if there's one incident that gets reported i think they ought to be coming in does that agreed okay all right anything else all right um all those in favor of the consent item signify by saying hi hi post the motion passes unanimously and we're on to the reading file i would like to make a comment about eight c and that's the winter operations update and december and january have been very challenging for our public works crews and they're out there doing a bang up job in the lousiest of weather keeping our streets and sidewalks as safe as they can so i wanted to give a shout out to them for the hard work that they do and those very challenging times so thank you all relay that thank you anything else in in the reading file you want to bring up okay i think i saw alayna come to you i mean um not items that are in the reading file but first let's work on it sure two things i wanted to share with the board um first is that um channel 17 along with the other um public access stations in the state under the vermont action network are happy to hear that the public service department has requested a hearing and a workshop on additional or alternate revenue streams for public access television so that's an ongoing conversation because revenue streams are changing significantly and lawsuits are going all over the place and so we need to start talking about new ways to fund so i'll keep you posted as that occurs and the other thing i wanted to bring up relates to iran's comments earlier about um affordable housing and darin had replied that some of the the solutions that are offered are to work with champlain housing trust to rehabilitate existing units so currently um there is a proposal from the governor to create a program called the vermont home improvement program i believe that's what it is home investment program and it's a million dollar proposal to provide grants to private landlords to improve their units for public use and the purpose is to take properties that are offline right now that are just not in good shape and are not being rented improve them and bring them on as housing stock in an affordable way and so if anyone is interested in seeing that proposal succeed i suggest that they contact their local legislators to encourage them to vote yes when that bill comes forward it does not have a bill for a number yet but 87 percent of code violations in vermont happen in privately owned um apartments and in the state and there's lots of funding going to publicly owned stuff but the overwhelming majority of violations are happening in privately owned so this is the first program of its kind to try to address privately held property and bring it online and make make more housing available it's worth a shot anything else in the reading plan iran you have a letter from esx rescue and i just wanted to sort of update you as to something i learned recently and it's that there's this for-profit ambulance service that's setting up shop very close by and we have about a week to get comments and if we'd like to say anything to them the threat to sx rescue i'm told is that their volunteers may be pulled away to work for a business like this and it's a tough issue because we always want new businesses to come here but also we want to support the existing businesses who have been there for us in our hours of need so they're advertising for emt's but really it's like a senior bus well that's in terms of service that's what's so interesting to me so i'm not so sure that we're getting the whole trees but um if anybody could get us more information from will or otherwise i'm out with them this morning with will right with will this morning it's a uh they're seeking a certificate to be an ambulance service their current model is to do inter facility intra facility transport so if you are going from a hospital to a therapy place they transport you and they charge a fee to do this originally they are also looking to do 911 transport they do see it as a concern to them but they are also a for-profit model uh as well they are we are one of their largest clients um and so uh yes they are concerned and they have to keep their eye on it but um his main concern is the marketplace not being large enough um to keep adding new providers the other one being uh we do uh they run on about uh i think they have three paid and full-time employees he being one of them everybody else's volunteers and sx rescue and so um he wants to keep his eye on it he wants to be supportive of they don't do those types of transports so um right now if that's what they're doing that's interesting and good but as they move into 911 you know um we have a uh volunteer model with our fire departments uh he keeps the costs low by doing that and then most of what happens with some of his people is eventually they get certifications and they look to get on as full-time EMTs or paramedics whether that be at south burlington or at other departments so um i said we were a happy client um and so we'd like to continue that relationship as it benefits both our community and his organization it's for him to be stable but that was that that was today's meeting so nice timing on so my question would be are there some comments that as a rescue would like made by the public i think we want to make sure that there are enough uh medical services to go around shint and kind of but that we are not unwittingly starting a system where we're going to start doing full-time EMT and paramedics at a quite a substantial cost right now i believe we pay a six rescue about seventy thousand dollars from town tax funds um and then they have a model where they also have this a subscription service um we were just talking today uh an ambulance um just the ambulance not what's in the ambulance is two hundred fifty thousand dollars so they they provide quite a service and their service terrier territory is well over a hundred square miles um the town itself is only 36 so they they they operate in a much larger area and so those are the types of things we want to make sure that we are not unwittingly working against our interest to then have full-time paramedics which will make the cost be exponential from there the service we get from sx rescue is quite a bargain yeah okay right exactly okay any other comments on reading file okay hearing none then uh we'll move on we don't need executive session this time do i have a second thank you mike any further discussion about a journey hearing none all those in favor signify by saying hi hi okay fast is unanimously great work tonight guys some ladies thank you