 talk negotiation. We've given you the fat pattern for this situation, and we're giving you some of the private facts that only each of the parties knows about themselves and don't know about each other. So we don't have a copy of Deborah's private facts. I'm going to read those to you. We've also given you a copy of the collaboration agreement, the Drama Skill Collaboration Agreement. So that's really what this session is about. It's about people working together and how they sort these things out and how their own personal issues are brought into a negotiation and how you might resolve these kind of issues. So fact pattern one and then fact pattern two will be tomorrow. Amy, what time is tomorrow's? 11 or 10? 10 am. We'll be doing the negotiation with the theater between the authors and the theater to license the show that they're writing. So this is collaboration and tomorrow will be the licensing agreement. So the fact pattern here is we have songwriter David and playwright Deborah. David is a high school music teacher in suburban Minnesota. A commuter train ride from Minneapolis for nearly 20 years. He's also the musical director and pianist for the local non-profit theater with which he's been associated for the last 10 years. He's made it known to the theater's artistic director that he has written many unpublished songs over the years and it's his dream to stage them at the theater as a concert. The theater's artistic director, Jane, has listened to the songs and she likes some of them very much. She's advised David to adapt them for a narrative song cycle or a musical instead. If he does so, the theater would be interested in presenting it. Since David is not a playwright and doesn't have strong narrative or writing skills, you will have to collaborate with a librettist to adapt his songs into a stage worthy musical. So Jane introduces David to playwright Deborah. Deborah graduated from an MFA playwriting program in New York a few years ago and has been a guild member ever since. Good for Deborah. She's been working temp jobs in the city of Minneapolis to pay for her bills, to pay her bills so she can keep writing. Some of her plays have won contests and have been selected for festivals, earning her some recognition in the region, and she's had a few stage readings of her work at New York City Nonprofits. Artistic director Jane recently produced one of Deborah's plays. It was her first full production of a full-length work which got excellent reviews and has sold out run. She's never written a musical but has read and studied librettos in the BMI workshop and is excited by the idea. Jane arranges a series of meetings for Deborah and David so they can discuss the project. David is impressed by Deborah's obvious writing talent and youthful enthusiasm and Deborah finds David's songs original and thrilling. They seem to be in sync creatively and so agree to work together to create the show. The working title is Viking Funeral. Jane gives them a deadline to present an outline for their Viking show plus one full scene and three songs. If it looks good Jane will ask the theater's board of directors to fund a developmental production which generally includes a small but not insignificant commission fee. Before they begin however Deborah has been advised by the Gill to negotiate a collaboration agreement with David. Neither is represented by an agent or attorney. So then we deal with each now there are facts that each of them Deborah and David know about themselves but don't know about each other which with which I will share with you now. You have a songwriter David's facts on the back of the scenario but Deborah's have not been given to you so I'm going to read those. You can read David's on your own. Deborah is living hand to mouth in a crappy apartment in Minneapolis and she may have to move back in with her parents and the suburbs if she can't start making better money. She's not even sure how she's going to keep paying for the commuter train from the city out to the theater. She hates temping but it's better than waiting tables or writing copy for her dad's ad agency. She misses New York and the off-off Broadway theater scene and wishes she could get stuff produced there instead in the sticks of Minnesota. She's a great playwright and she knows it and though she hasn't written a musical theater libretto her work in the BMI workshop gives her the confidence to do it and some experience with collaboration. What she knows about business and negotiations could fit in a shoebox and she doesn't care much about that stuff but she knows it's important for her to understand if she's going to be a professional. Artistic director Jane loves her work and looks at Deborah as her discovery but Deborah was less than impressed by Jane's direction of her play. She loves many of David's songs but some of the lyrics are dreadful and amateurish. She can help revising the lyrics where necessary. She's a Tyler's self promoter and networker her own website social media etc but her single-mindedness has left no room for any romantic relationships. Why I'm telling you that I have no idea. Once I start writing a story it takes on a life of its own. She's a loyal Guild member and believes in the rights of authorship and will abide by Guild standards where possible. Her dad told her they had no her dad didn't tell her they had Viking ancestors. What she says is Vikings. What are Vikings? And you can see David's fact pattern. He doesn't want to teach for much longer. He's burned out and is thinking about retirement and would love to be involved with musical theater at this point in his life. His lovely wife is a good friend of the artistic director Jane. She was the one who introduced him to her in the first place. He's financially well off with a good pension coming his way after he retires. He's insecure about his songwriting and so overcompensates by being defensive and protective of his work but he does have raw and developed talent. He's prickly by nature but has a good heart. He's lived in this town all his life and hasn't really traveled much beyond Minneapolis. He thinks he's a good businessman. He read Deborah's play and didn't really understand it very well though he tells her it was great because what does he know? He's never heard of the dramatist Guild in the suspicious of unions. His Nordic heritage makes him think of himself as a descendant of Vikings. He's proposed that the show has a Viking theme. Let's bring our songwriter and playwright in. Playwright Deborah and songwriter David. Welcome. So you guys have gotten together. Deborah has invited David to a discussion about working out a collaboration agreement. Deborah, the floor is yours. Remember of the Guild, the Dramatist Guild? They're great. I actually don't know why I would know that because I've never heard of the Dramatist Guild. No, so it's a great organization. They help playwrights and composers and lyricists and you know I'll tell you more about it after but they gave me this collaboration agreement. They really strongly suggested that we look at it since we'll be working together and I hate to do this because I mean I hate this stuff. What stuff? This is like legal junk. Yeah, you're springing this on me right now. Oh I thought I emailed it to you to look at before. Okay. Must have gone into the ether. I'm sorry. Well anyway you could take a look at it. It's basically an agreement that they suggest that we have so that we can form our relationship so that we know what we're doing 10 years from now to get some of this stuff out of the way so we can just do what we do. I think we're both adults. We can negotiate, you know, figure out what we're going to do with that. You know my concern about this is that's a union contract for a union member and I've never even heard of this organization before. No, no it's not. You can join. Anyone can join. You have to be a little fit. It's not at all union. It's really just a model to sort of think about some of the things. Let me tell you because I've sort of been through this before. You have to just, well I fit, you know, I had my play produced. I didn't know you collaborated. Okay we're going to freeze there. This is a standard moment at the beginning of this discussion where one of the members has brought in some objective criteria, some way of looking at this that the other one doesn't know anything about and this could be an easy place for this thing to break down. Let's suppose for the sake of this negotiation that Deborah's able to convince David that there are criteria that exist in the universe that he may want to at least listen to and we'll take it from there. Okay Deborah, I see your point and as long as we're not deciding, as you're not asking me to sign anything today so I can check it out myself, we can come to some agreement. Sure and I talked to the, and look I'm not trying to do anything wrong here. I'm just trying to get us on the right page. So I don't know if you want to go through this. I mean I could tell you some of the things that I'm concerned about going forward. Whatever you're comfortable with. Yeah well I just want to make sure I have control over the work and the proper billing and I get you know whatever percentage of money I'm due. Okay well that one's a little bit easier. So the people at the guild said that we theoretically could divide things. What did they say? Well here's the thing. So you don't have to divide this according to the way that they said it but they said to give one-third to the book writer, one-third to the composer and one-third to the lyricist. But in this case you know because I'm really shaping the work and I'm really going to be the one with the contacts and the one pushing it forward I just felt like you know maybe I'll just get like an extra percentage in that. And they said that's like torch bearing so that's okay. Well I was looking at it differently. I was thinking that I might get a little bit of an advantage because maybe you're shaping the book but you're shaping it based on my songs and my songs have already gotten good reviews from the from the AD. Jane. Right but I mean I'm an established playwright. I mean I've won festivals and I had a few competitions and I had that full performance just a while ago in this community. So I think a lot of people are going to come for that reason. And honestly David I know I've been through BMI. I've worked with people before so I I kind of feel like you just need to hear me out a little bit on how we go forward. I'm willing to hear you out a little bit. Well okay okay I didn't want to bring it up. I didn't want to bring it up. You said one-third and one-third for each and I was two-thirds of that which sounds okay but also you do have some experience but not with musicals and when people leave the theater they're not going to be whispering monologues to each other. They're going to be humming my songs. So I'm wondering how much I would differ with that but I mean I just have to I didn't want to bring this up because I don't want to seem difficult but you know some of your lyrics need to be worked on. I've worked on them a little bit over here. Let's freeze right there. Here's another place that a negotiation can go off the rails. When everybody's invested in their own stuff you know and you have to sort of be sensitive to the other person's what they're bringing to the table. David's not really being sensitive to what appears to be Deborah's economic point and she's responded to that by hitting him where his lyrics are which is easily going to drive this thing right into a ditch. So let's see if we can't take a step back from that and say you know if we can figure out the economic terms based on our what are our mutual interests here what is important to each of us and think about cooperative negotiating rather than competitive negotiating this actually could move forward. So let's take it from the split of the royalties and see if we can get past that. Well I can say you know we've done a little collaboration together and I've been really happy with it. I think we have good chemistry. We're going to disagree on a lot of this stuff. I think I have more business experience than you do but you may have you have more dialogue experience than I do that's for sure. So you know I have no problem. Look I want to move beyond the royalties if we can and put a pin in it as keeping it standard keeping it and I'll check it out. Can we if I end up writing some of the lyrics we can maybe look at that point again. We can but but then you're open to look if I end up changing some of the dialogue. So let's talk about the royalties and discuss I mean I would I would rather have us try to respect each other's work as much as possible with it sounds like you're not even considering touching the music so let's assume that for now. No I wouldn't and I won't touch the no you write great song. Okay you know what let's just we'll just keep it standard if we have the so what's the standard for this kind of thing with with commenting on lyrics and music and book well and I'll corroborate whatever you tell me now. They said basically every authorial unit should get the third and and look if we all exchange we'll collaborate whatever you'll you'll give me comments I'll give you comments then we'll hopefully we'll okay so I'm not losing control of my music or losing control of my lyrics because Jane does like those songs so I think we should lean towards keeping them or at least if you have suggestions I'm open to them but I don't want to become you know compelled to to have to incorporate your suggestions. No I think we work on our own parts and we try to make it work together yeah I mean I certainly if look if it doesn't work out I definitely would want to use some of this stuff in another piece so what stuff well I mean just some of the ideas I put I think could work in another context so I just want to yes I will own my stuff and you own your stuff and we'll we'll divide it in in those thirds okay okay but then the thing it so that's fine so I think we just write I'll have someone and I'll corroborate it and we'll we'll we'll tighten it up before we sign yeah but the one thing that you were talking about in terms of control I'm just thinking for the future of the work being that I have connections I'm a promoter I mean I have so many followers on Twitter um I heard you were a temp yeah that's my day job but have you seen I do that so that I can I can do what I love do you know what my day job is you work in a high school as a musician well okay anyway all I'm trying to say is that I I do feel that I'm pretty good at marketing I'm putting things forward I do have a name um in the industry in New York I have contacts um and and I don't I want to have look I see that I'm not getting the majority of the money here which puts me in a bad spot but at least I want to be able to make some decisions going forward and have a real say in that so maybe since you're getting the larger amount of money I could get sort of an extra vote what um let's freeze there um from the private facts that you you guys know about she's hard up for cash he's insecure about the work and wants to protect it so if they were being really honest with each other about what their real needs are here she'd have put on the table the fact that look for me to work on the show I need to be able to afford to get out to this place I need I need more of the money that might be standard um so they ended up in the opposite situation where she's exceeding to his monetary demands while going for the control issues um that's going to drive this off a cliff because this is going to require more openness and cooperation and honesty if there's going to be a meeting of the minds here um when you get into competitive negotiating that's about people taking positions and then locking into those positions and it becomes a conflict cooperative negotiation is where both of you are looking at the problem and trying to find ways to resolve it together you're working together against the common problem but there only can be that can only work if you're sharing information if you're willing to uh let your guard down a little bit and be willing to hear the other person and try and identify the need not just the position what is the need behind the position she's talking about she was talking about two thirds one third maybe I can get a little more why is she asking for that because she needs the money and if you want to work with her you have to hear that and say well is money that important to me is money important to david in this situation you saw his private backs not really he's well he's he's doing fine financially he has a an artistic interest here he has a control interest he has other interests so his financial interest isn't what's driving him and if he hears her pushing financial interest that's an opportunity for him to say okay let's do something financial for you that way I can guarantee my control of the work my I don't have to worry about I get other things I can trade that essentially so you have to listen when you're negotiating to what not just the position people are taking but what are the needs behind the positions um let's talk about uh the uh the billing what are are there going to be any issues in billing here what do you think well should we launch in or yeah well you know you said that that your temp is a day job and you do have a good rep you've won some things and maybe that's not just I don't need the money so much at this point but I don't want to be a high school teacher for any longer than I have to be and I hate children and uh you know maybe uh you know if uh I can help talk to Jane or even uh help get you out here financially so that you can work on the show here and not worry about that stuff um you know the idea for me is that I want to increase my reputation as an artist so that I can get other theatrical work commissions or no I mean that would be amazing because yeah I didn't want to tell you all that but uh well I knew you were a hard and it's going to take so much work for me even just to research this whole biking thing uh I mean that's going to take so much time out of out of even the temp work so it's it's going to hit it's going to hurt uh but I want to do this and I want to help you I want to take you with me the music is great let's let's take each other with each other okay uh so we'll we'll try to work out some of the money stuff but you know I and I want you to research that I know it's not difficult especially you know you're not of Nordic descent like me and I'm very proud of that that I'm a Norseman but uh so maybe I can help point you towards some some research materials and and make sure that's done but um I do want I don't know library I have a personal library of Nordic folklore I worship Odin but what I do want I but you know I'm willing to do that but like I said like you said you know we can sort of rise together and um you know my understanding when I've seen billing on on other uh posters is that the composer is often uh billed either first or up top below the title and I'd like to honor that that standard I'm pretty sure it's alphabetical which would still put you first I have to be first for my reason I'm kidding I mean that that would be fine look the only thing that I feel is again like if I do end up writing some of those lyrics that I I I get credit for some of it even if it's something additional lyrics or you know we'll come up we can come up with something else just to be true and honest to what we're doing because we both want to be represented in the world for what we do look I I admire your youth and enthusiasm on this uh but um I do want to tell you that I'm kind of you know I'm older I'm I'm a little bit more set in my ways I rub people the wrong way a lot of times so you know you're gonna have to deal with the fact that I'm very you know these lyrics I think I would be surprised if they could be improved upon frankly and uh I'm open to it but I I just don't I don't see how it would be better but you know whatever we can take that as it goes I as long as I'm getting the billing that I want and as long as I'm billed as the you know if you do have the lyrics I would I would be shocked okay well I mean well I guess we'll have to is there is there someone else in the relationship who you might both defer to about whether lyrics could be improved or not yeah my wife's best friend Jane who's the artistic director who's going to be producing this so do you do you feel comfortable leaving this with uh Jane to see if um you know you know I I have a couple of friends from to be a my workshop I thought maybe we could bring some of them in maybe at some point too I mean I have I met this guy at Steven Schwartz no but the guy I worked with knew him um so he clearly must be good if he knew Steven Schwartz and and I I think that uh I mean it's something to think about as well uh I think bringing in people that are really established because we want we want to get this play out I mean you look you want to be successful you don't be teaching high school want to get this play off Broadway yeah I feel like we're backsliding on on the approvals uh I want to have approval over my lyrics and if I end up incorporating more of your lyrics than I thought I would which again would be shocking to me then we can discuss it at that point but I wouldn't want to bring in all New York people who are just going to usurp my position I'm I wrote the songs I'm I'm the core of this work right now I'm all that exists of this work is mine what happens you know when one party is is trying to control the work and the other one wants to see it move forward and doesn't think that the other party knows enough about what they're doing to have that happen that that agreement that forget the agreement that relationship is not going to work again honesty early on either she is going to be willing to go along with his you know narcissism or she might be willing to exceed to the director's opinion on this as a tiebreaker or she's going to say this guy is just too much of an amateur for me to bother with this is you know I need to make money this is this guy is going to keep me from ever getting the show anywhere where I'm going to make any money from it so depending on which avenue she chooses that's going to decide whether this moves forward or not so let's assume for the sake of this conversation that she has although maybe not crazy about Jane and a little suspicious of what her relation Jane's relationship is to David whoever's going to direct this thing is going to have some say and that's the way a musical works so she'll make her points about the lyrics to the director and the director will make the points that she agrees with to David and if David wants to get this show on he's going to have to deal with those comments if they end up being a significant amount of lyrics they're going to work out some way of credit and money to acknowledge her contributions in those areas there's no reason he wouldn't if if he feels like he can trust Jane's judgment he may not trust Deborah's at this early phase but he may trust Jane so let's assume that they're both willing to go along with you know Jane's point and just move to how long are you gonna guys gonna commit to this collaboration is this is this forever are you just gonna keep working on this until one of you dies or what's the deal I was thinking um if the play didn't go well you know maybe two years well it's gonna be a musical right I'm sorry yeah you're right um two years Freudian slip right there what's that yeah I put two years in in that paragraph so that if it doesn't come together and work out if we don't hit say an off-broadway level um that we can split up maybe in two two years you know we'll we'll just end this and and then go our way because like I told you I just I have to make life work I can't I want this to work and I'm willing to put the effort and don't get me wrong I just don't I can't sit here forever I hear you I can't sit in Hastings Minnesota forever either but uh you know I was actually gonna go for one year because I think these songs are hot they have some of the um some of the musical idioms of the day that might go stale after two years so I want to guard against that uh would you be all right with one year we'll try I mean we'll just work for a year and then if it doesn't work I just don't know that within a year it's gonna be enough time I mean it's gonna take us at least six months to write this what do you think we could accomplish in a year not off-broadway I can I can see that I don't know I mean Jane said maybe we could have a performance here yeah I mean I think if it's performed here and does a full run then you know full run within a year and then if it doesn't you know we can always well if we have the performance here you can't pull the songs out after the year right so we need a performance here within the year so one performance with okay about a performance I don't know you know I think it has to go past previews you know I've seen theater from from my point of view of of being a musical director but you know I've never discussed this level of detail on on a production so so I you know I what would you do in a play you have a play for how long do you work with somebody have you ever collaborated on a play no no but I've had some experience with people so what do you suggest well I okay I think I think that we should give it two years and if we have a production within those two years at this theater here then we should be able to move forward okay so we do one year and then with an option to extend it another year if we're it's so complicated okay I don't I don't even know if you can do that I don't I don't want to I don't want to ruin this because we had a couple good collaborations for me I mean I can't I can't with the contract again you can't with the contract I feel like one shot at this and let's just get it over with okay let's freeze here the first of all the the lack of ease with actual process of entering into a contract is a real thing and a lot of artists have it the one who feels least comfortable with that can either undermine the negotiation by not by being paralyzed by the process or you can get educated about it and feel empowered enough to enter into a conversation with someone that you know doesn't make you feel like an adolescent so that's part of what the guild is about is you talk to us we we walk you through the contract and give you the options about well you can do this or you can do that and this is why you would do this or do that right now what they're talking about the length of the collaboration period this is about at what point does each of their contributions merge into one show that is now going to exist indefinitely thereafter how long are they going to work together to put their book and lyrics together and we put the music before they say you know what we never got anywhere with this I'm going to take my music you're going to take your book go our separate ways maybe you'll I'll use my music with another book writer maybe you'll use your book I'll make a play out of something but at some point we're going to want to move on life is too short so you're going to pick a moment at which time your play and and the play in the music will merge this is called merger how odd a title um so what what is the point of merger for one of them one of them wants merger quicker than the other whoever feels like their contribution is the more valuable they'll want um they'll want the the period of collaboration to be short because they'll want to be able to move on if things aren't working out they don't want merger right away they want a short period with a high level of production to end up with the merger the other the other writer you might be calling the subordinate writer um the one who came onto the project second or who feels like they're not as invested in the project or whatever it is emotionally they're the ones who who are gonna feel like well his music is really good I need to glom onto it as fast as possible because that's my book is not going to be worth anything without his music it's about Vikings I don't know shit about Vikings he's going to give me material about Vikings so I'm going to be dependent on him for the story I'm not really going to do anything with this I need his music if this is going to have any value to me at all so she's going to want a merger as soon as possible she's going to want it like the day they write it and he's going to want it when it opens on Broadway you know um so the negotiation is between those two points essentially where is the merger point and again that's a function of your personality that's a function of what you perceive the value of what you're bringing to the table is so it's it's very subjective there's no one right point of negotiation let's uh so let's assume that David uh has these hot you know he's very filled with his notion of this music and he's been encouraged in that by Jane and he's controlling sort of the underlying material this Viking material so he needs her to make a narrative and a book out of this but he feels like his music is the key and she feels like I'm not going to be able to do much with this except with his stuff here but if I'm able to make something good out of it I know people in New York and this play can have a longer life if I'm attached to it so where does uh where does termination where does length of agreement and where does the merger point happen in that situation what do you guys think well it sounded to me like we were starting to get towards like opening night uh of at this theater um which you know I suppose that's okay I would want um I guess if if our work merges does that mean if Nike comes along and wants to use one of my tunes as a jingle that I can't do that I can't I mean could I like split the money with you because that would be a huge boon for me or how do we handle that Deborah that money okay so if Nike comes and wants to use your song we'll do 50 50 that's a great idea I spoke too soon now if David calls joins the guild and calls us and calls Deborah the lawyer Deborah not playwright Deborah what would lawyer Deborah tell David if his collaborator his playwright collaborator wanted half of his you know musical uh small rights and publishing rights and all that stuff lawyer Deborah why would you do that you wrote that song is it standard if the book isn't being utilized in any manner then what right does that bookwriter have to that song that can be sung at a bar and that's a very good argument for the book writer and book writers have been singing that song for a very long time and have not gotten too far they are they are and you know depending on the power of the particular book writer some book writers have been able to get a share of the composer's small performance rights public music publishing rights sync rights and all those things but it's a very rare it's very unusual the music has a life and a copyright separate and apart from the show so the you know the grand rights in the songs that's the rights of the music in the show that's something that the two of them share when they do a a cd of the show a cast album they both get royalties from that but only this the composer and the lyricist also get mechanical royalties the small performing rights royalties from that which only existed each separate song separate apart from the show you're right the value may have been created by the show but it's also true that there are songs that are famous from shows that I've never heard of again so the copyright law recognizes value in each of the individual songs separate apart from the show and that's what David brought up was these separate music rights and lawyer Deborah would tell you that's not something the book writer normally shares it now if she's the lyricist too on that song then yes she's in for that and they can generally they'll generally depending on her share of the lyrics let's say she rewrote half the lyrics so she'll get half of the lyricist share and he'll get the full composer share and the other half of the lyricist share so he's getting three quarters basically and she'll get a quarter that's how that would work out but I didn't have to be a member of the of any guild or union to know that I just made a mistake because she accepted it so quickly that's also about negotiations is reading when you say something and the other person's like oh yeah okay but again it's the difference between cooperative negotiation and uh you know competitive sorry competitive negotiation I mean that did you want to talk well do you want us to go into negotiation of when of termination and merger yeah yeah so we've got a basic framework that will be merged at the opening performance of this what happens if we're not or what happens if things just fall apart beforehand like I said we've had some good experiences we've got some creative chemistry which I which I appreciate uh but this has been grueling and it could go either way in my mind now and you know I'd like you I want to always be friends with you but at the same time um you want a piece of my you know there's there's a lot in contention so what if what if I want out do you know can you tell me what the standard is for that and then if uh and then I can corroborate well I I mean if if things aren't working out we can we can part ways um there was a section in here about rejecting you a unit sorry a unit another Freudian so there's there's that um but you know I I I do know I do remember that you know I think you know if we give this five year if we can commit the material for for five years right and if we don't we don't get to the opening here within five years then I think that's giving it everything we can for for this purpose and then we can well I thought it was one year and we can I want to finish this topic first that if if uh if it's not working out can I use pieces of your book and then like you go away okay this is we're gonna so we're gonna uh tie it up now and we're gonna pick up more of this tomorrow in in the mock too but um what what they're talking about here is how long are we gonna collaborate for what's the date of termination of this agreement if we get to that date and we haven't reached the merger point that is a performance if they agree that performance at this theater will be the merger point we haven't gotten there within a year two years five years whatever the length of the agreement is then the contract terminates and everybody gets their piece and moves on there's also and if you do merge then the contract extends indefinitely and it controls your relationship thereafter um there's also an important provision in the contract about you know dividing the baby at you know sort of the post the prenuptial agreement aspects what do we do with the show um if one of us if it terminates one of us wants to go on and one of us doesn't what can I do with your piece you can easily get it back completely in which case you really haven't made any money out of it or you can allow me to move forward with it and then you'll benefit if I'm able to do anything with it so working out that sort of prenup aspect is part of the collaboration agreement and can really the guild lawyer whoever you're talking to can really help walk you through the process of what what does that look like and in fact the guild has a mediation service if you're if you and your collaborators are both members you can talk to us about working out the separation agreement and we'll sort of talk you through the process of the fairest way of dividing the baby if you will but we'll get much more into it and take questions tomorrow after mock two where uh where uh songwriter david will negotiate with artistic director jane about producing the viking funeral thank you