 If you're just not even a front-facing artist or producer, you can just monetize off of the music itself. Like I just want to make money off of my music. I don't care about all of the other, you know, fan growth or Spotify number growth. I just want to make a sustainable living off of it. That's possible too. And that's why I advocate for SYNC so much because it just gives the artist options, you know what I mean? On how they want to build a career in music. What's up? What's up? What's up? I'm Brandon Sean. And I'm Cory. And we are back with another episode of No Labels, a necessary podcast. You can catch us every Tuesday, every Thursday on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you stream your podcast. Coming from the intersection of creativity and commerce, the artists and the entrepreneurs. This is No Labels. And today I got somebody who represents that concept, doing something differently. No labels. Welcome, Deraj. What's good? What's up? What's up, man? How are we feeling? Great, man. We're feeling great. It's been a good day so far, you know what I'm saying? Thank you. Now, I'm going to say out of the jar, this guy, he's made some money doing what he does. He's brought in over $200,000 just from SYNC alone, right? Now, we're going to get into that and what that means and what that looks like. But he also could have played basketball. I don't know. He might have low key got his money from basketball. We ran into him at the recording academy party and I kept looking up and it didn't stop. You know what I mean? What do you mean? Yeah, it's different when you're getting real life, man. These little Instagrams and stories don't show the, you know what I mean? You don't get good. Yeah, man. But yeah, man, it's cool, bro. I'm glad to be here, man. Off rip, I love the title of this podcast. No labels necessary, which I know you guys are going to get to my story, but, you know, I'm a big indie advocate, indie producers, indie artists. I'm an indie myself, formally signed to a label, but I'm sure we'll get there. But yeah, man, I'm excited to talk about it. Man, man, we're definitely going to get there. I want to start with delving into the SYNC side of things because I know that a lot of people don't start there, right? So I just want to get straight into the sauce of, like, what brought you into the SYNC world? Yeah, man. So I alluded to it a little earlier. I first found out about, and I didn't know what was called SYNC at the time, but during the time when I was signed to the label that I mentioned, I signed around 2014. And early on, you know, with my time there, the label, I had, it was the first EP that I dropped on the label and one of the songs called The Entries of ESPN. And it was one of those things where we just, we didn't know really how it happened outside of somebody from that side of the industry was just following the label. They reached out, thought one of my songs would be a good fit. And then, you know, probably like a couple of weeks later, it was on ESPN's First Take, which ironically, I hadn't even heard of First Take before. I knew of ESPN, obviously. But from that point on, for me, it just kind of sowed a seed of, like, I don't know why I do more of this because it's just, for me, it's just a little me, you know what I mean? And I just made this music in my bedroom, just signed to a label and now a brand like ESPN wants to use my music and ends up using it. And I'm seeing my name on like the lower thirds, you know what I mean? When they're running the segment and all that. So so many thoughts were running through my head and I just got hooked. And so from that point on, it was just trying to figure out how to do more of that. You know what I mean? All right. Now, was it just the visibility and what you saw there that excited you or did the money excite you as well? Or you were signed to a label, right? We might have to get into something. Maybe you didn't even really see the money. Like, what was that? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good question. Because, like, when that one started, it wasn't like a crazy fee. I mean, it was probably less than $2,000 of that. I can't even remember how much of that was my portion. But it was just one of those things where being a young artist, because you wouldn't have known this, but I didn't have any ambitions to be doing music in the capacity that I'm doing it now. My background is in visual arts and branding. Like, that's what my degree is in. Like, I moved from Richmond, Virginia, down to Orlando, Florida is where I'm at now for school. And I went to post, I got my bachelor's degree in digital arts and design. And so that's the track I was on. Music was just like a hobby. It was a form of like ministry. It was community. One thing I didn't mention, the label that I was signed to was a Christian hip-hop label. So, like, my faith and all that kind of stuff was really deeply integrated with what I was doing. But, yeah, the label thing just kind of happened. And actually, it happened because of my design. Like, they were looking for a graphic designer for, like, some t-shirt, merchandise for one of the artists that turned to me doing, like, you know, album cover art. And then it involved into me just being their art director for everything for the label. Then they found out that I did music and that's how that whole conversation happened. So, I had no, like, game plan for where I am now. And so I guess, like, guys, it's funny like that. I just end up here and this is all I do, you know what I mean? 411. So, early on, it was just the fact that my music was just seen on such a large platform in a way that I thought that was reserved for, like, other people. You know what I mean? Like, other artists that maybe were more established or whatever. And, yeah, man. So, it was more of that. It just gave me a good bit of validation. And also, like, I can get paid to do it as well. So. Yeah, well, let me ask you this because you said this was 2014, right? Yeah. So, 2014, like, streaming wasn't as crazy yet. So, you know, I know today, if an artist were to get a sync placement, they probably would judge the impact based on, you know, streams going up or followers or things like that. So, what was the, if the money wasn't crazy, like, what was the visible impact that you were seeing after it happened? So, and it's one of those things I would wish I probably would have paid attention more. I couldn't tell you. Like, I couldn't qualify the impact beyond, like, some other tangible metrics. I just know I saw my song on TV. I know I got paid some money for it. And I know it's ESPN, you know what I mean? And that was enough for me to kind of get, like, to get started on this thing. Now, as I grew and as I evolve, like, and have more of a kind of a business focus on it, those things happen. Like, metrics might look a little different because I've had songs that, you know, solely because of licensing, you know, I've gotten, you know, two, three thousand. Actually, like, one of, so I have a couple other artist projects that I do music on. They're not just derage. I have another artist project called Sonny Yo. And it's a project that kind of happened on accident. It's like a funk, new age funk, R&B, all R&B hip hop kind of fusion thing that we do. And our top song is like close to a million. And, like, and this is, this is just off of the strength of, like, us having it in the right hands of certain licensing agencies. And when we pushed this project originally, like, we didn't have a crazy, like, marketing plan behind it. Like, we had a photo shoot, you know, got a, you know, decent grand pop and put it out to my audience because I had, you know, the largest audience on my derage brand just let them know, like, hey, I'm doing something called Sonny Yo. And it's streaming over a million or close to a million, just on Spotify. But a good majority of that is just because the music is available for licensing. And it's a good song, but, you know, it's just like, we get paid off of it. Like that one song, like, it's got a, it's got a ton of micro licenses, but it also got, like, a call of duty placement. If you hear the song, it sounds like you would never think this song. I'm singing like falsetto and it's, like, kind of groovy and it's, like, got a call of duty mode placement. So it's super weird. So to your, like, to your question, stuff like that can happen as far as it can increase your streams. But also, too, if you're just not even a front-facing artist or producer, you can just monetize off of the music itself without, you know, like, if that's your only metric and that's your goals, you're like, I just want to make money off of my music. I don't care about all of the other, you know, fan growth or, you know, Spotify number growth. I just want to make a sustainable living off of it. That's possible too. And that's why I advocate for SYNC so much because it just gives the artist options, you know what I mean, on how they want to build a career in music. Yeah, you just use the term too. I've never heard before. Microplacement. But it makes me feel like, you know, there must be levels to the world of, like, SYNC placements. So can you talk about that, like, microplacements and then kind of what goes beyond the different types of placements? Yeah, so there's a couple different segments, I always like to talk about of where your music can kind of live. There are, you know, obviously we know TV film and that could be like scripted, unscripted TV, you know, think, you know, euphoria or you or Atlanta, like, that's all scripted, unscripted, being like reality TV shows, perfect match, survivor, all that kind of stuff. We have digital promos, digital online promos, and also TV promos. We have commercials and advertising. There's trailers. There's podcast, licensed music. I don't think what else. And I mentioned the micro licensing side of it and that's more like YouTube content creators, you know, certain nonprofits, just content creators in general that have a visual component to it. Like, if they're looking to, like, monetize, like on platforms like YouTube, then they need a license to be able to do so or get like copyright strikes or their videos muted or like Twitch and all that other kind of stuff. We're actually in a situation now where one of our songs, for some reason, somebody else ended up claiming copyright on it. We're trying to figure out how all this happened, but long story short, the platform that's licensed here, which is Artlist, is another company that artists can give their music to and Artlist will provide that music to their, you know, massive amount of subscribers to use, you know, without any penalty and be able to license it legally. But one of their users got their video muted because there was a copyright claim on it because, you know, we own the copyright even though we didn't do it. Somebody else owned it, so we're in a situation trying to figure it out. But I just use that example that that's a thing. Like, you put a video up, you know, own the music. Like, your audio can get muted or get copyright started taking down or whatever, whatever. And there's a few other segments. I'm not recalling right now, but there's a lot of different ways that you can, oh, custom music, like custom bespoke music, like you think of, like, children's animations or something like that. Like, if there's a really hyper-specific song talking about, like, you know, Think Door to Explore, you know, talking about Where's the Mountain, you know what I mean? Like, that's a custom song that has to get licensed. Theme songs also get licensed. So, yeah, there's a lot of different ways that your music can get used in this space. But again, like, to, like, what you are saying, the awareness is not there as far as how any artist or producer can really leverage their music, expertise or knowledge, or licensing with brands. It seems like the only way to monetize your music is touring, streams, is brand partnerships, it's merch. I don't know if I already said that, but, and I always say, like, if Sink is on the list at all, it's usually Blast, but usually it's not even on the list, you know what I mean? And it's really powerful as far as fueling and funding and an artist's career, and also even giving more exposure to an artist's career, like even social validation and social equity, you know what I mean? Because I can't tell you how many looks I get just because, like, I've had a Wakanda placement or I've had, like, you know, a Timo or a Peloton placement. It's just, like, I'm associated with these major brands, and so that just gives me a certain level of a certain seat at the table, if you will, you know what I mean? Yeah, so you're saying just because, right, you're associated and I see that you're in this big thing, now they're like, oh, well, that's an artist that we want to reach out to, because obviously this company trusted them and this guy, as long as, like, social proof or almost, like, clout within that space, basically. Yeah, man. Yeah, it's just, like, it's social equity, and it's like, you can leverage that. And it's one of those things, I mean, you kind of have to know how to navigate conversations with, you know, people on that side, but I do know it puts you in more conversations and gets you access to conversations or opportunities that, you know, you might not just because, oh, I see this person and got, you know, this placement or this placement. Like, as an artist, it seems like they're doing something, right, because these big brands are wanting to use their music, so maybe there's a story there, maybe there's something more there. And, you know, it's to be found out if there is, but, again, it's just, people just care about optics, you know what I mean? Like, if it looked like it's popping, then let me find out if it is, and it'll get validated, but at least where the opportunity didn't exist, like, it just becomes a little bit more substantive, because, like, you know, they're aligned with this particular brand. I mean, you know that as a business owner, like, your network can really, really help, like, propel you into different spaces just because you're aligned with the right people. And so I just think it's the same thing with leveraging brand awareness and placements to kind of give you a little bit more exposure and opportunities to just offer those type of looks. Yeah, man, even knowing how corporations work or a lot of these companies at large, it makes a lot of sense, because we get so cut off in the music space, like, us and a lot of the people who follow us, and we think of things in the context of the music ladder and how this industry sees other artists, but the value looks completely different in the things they measure outside of music. Like, there's a guy, like, he got, like, 100k from Spanx, because whatever. Even if someone within music and closer to the music industry, was involved, they probably, one, wouldn't have thrown that number out. Two, would have, like, tried to finesse it and get somebody else to create it. Like, there's a completely different way of judging it, right? So, knowing that, and if I'm further away from music, I probably see, yet again, whoa, Jaraj, he's worked with, like, he was in the Wakanda project, he did this company, this company. I'm actually also using that, not just to create my own interests, but to say, hey, yo, Corey, this guy, he's been on, you know, in these projects. So, it's like a trustworthiness that I could communicate to my people involved, right? Yeah, yeah, I always say, like, businesses do business with the less risky option. And so, and also, too, like, businesses work with those they trust and like. And so, if I'm able to, and again, it just depends on what you're trying to do in your music career, because if I'm trying to forge certain relationships, and that's the thing, like, for me, just liking some of my music was one thing, and so I got a lot of dope looks from that. And also, like, we were having a clubhouse at one point, and we started to offer education to artists, and that's another validation, because, again, that social proof of, we know what we're talking about. And also, even during that process, we were able to get, like, other music supervisors from, like, CBS or Netflix or Cobalt or what else, like Fox, you know what I mean? Like, they came in and talked to our community and stuff like that. And just, again, being aligned with different people, like, we were able to start, like, bringing in more, you know, noteworthy guests and stuff like that. So now there's a compounded side of it, where I know how to license my music, but I also know what I'm talking about. I know how to help other people license their music. And so now, like, I remember when we were having talks with, it was a, I'll say it was one of the larger streaming platforms. I was talking to one of their executives, and even when we were just starting our course out, they were asking how, like, them as a company could be even deeper involved, but we have going on. We were just starting out. But it was because we had, like, and I purposely kind of reserved some of the involvement because I wanted us to kind of get a strong foundation before we bring such a big company in to kind of align with them some things. I'm just one of those ones where I like to scale, like, in a healthy way and not, like, oversell or undersell or whatever. It's just like, hey, we know that's there. Let's, you know, maybe revisit the conversation later. But it just goes to show, like, the perception of a thing is a thing. You know what I mean? When it comes to business building, you want to be ready for those opportunities when they come, but just because some of those, like, peripheral or adjacent relationships that we've been able to build, it just helps position us in different ways. And I just use that example for any artist, like being able to create as much leverage as you can, you know, just helps you when you get into these different rooms and different doors and also being clear on what you want. So that's why I say, like, it's just another thing because right now for any, like, for indies or, you know, artists that are putting stuff out, their leverage is going to be their fan base or their numbers. You know what I mean? It seems like in most cases, like, if you got a really strong fan base and you can prove that, like, based off of your, you know, engagement numbers, all that kind of stuff, then that gets, you know, brands, you know, bigger entities or partnerships that you can start courting those type of opportunities or if you're just doing numbers, you know what I mean? Like on Spotify, because it's all public to people, like, that's just, like, all it is is leverage, you know what I mean? For other things, other companies I want to bring you into, but, like, for me, like, when I started focusing on licensing, the amount of licenses and placements that I was getting and showcasing on my social media started to become, like, the leverage and the social proof for people to say, like, yo, he's just keeping getting all these placements and he aligned with these, you know, big brands that got to the yada, like, on the fan side and also on the buyer-client side to say, like, all right, he's, you know, he's making the noise and the music is good, you know what I mean? And so, yeah, that's all. It's just, it's leverage, you know what I mean? Like, leverage and figuring out how you can create that for yourself as an artist. I just feel like we'll propel and it's probably the most useful piece in your arsenal, like, yeah, I would say. So, some artists and managers are just waiting for lucky moments when the ones who are killing it have systems to consistently take artists to another level over and over again. And if you want to see what that looks like, we just did a collab where we not only show the system that we use that's resulted in Billboard hit some of the biggest viral moments on TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube, but also, we got JR McKee to break down how he took an artist from zero to one of the biggest hit songs of 2022 and getting a Grammy in January of 2023. This is recent stuff, not old tactics. If you want to check it out, go to www.brandmannetwork.com slash Grammy. Don't forget the www, or it won't work because JR gets into the details of looking at the data, decisions that got made, how much content got created, and how they adjusted the content over time for different parts of the campaign. This is real behind the curtains type of stuff. So again, go to www.brandmannetwork.com slash Grammy. If you want to check this out and apply it to yourself, back to the video. I want to get into what artists can do, but before that, I just, we got reminded when you said, it was probably maybe two months ago now. I can't remember the exact timeline, but it was recently. I walked upstairs to have a conversation with my lady. She paused the TV, and when you pause the TV now, it's this feature where we can see the actors in it and apparently shows the music. And I saw the Raj up there, and I hadn't told you that. I forgot about that. That's crazy. You want to guess what show it was? What, it was recent? It was pretty recent. But, you know, things are, you know, people watch old stuff these days, you know? Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I'm trying to think of some of the recent stuff and some of it. It was a streaming platform, I'm assuming. Here's how y'all know this guy actually does this, right? He came, there's multiple options that it could be. Because we got, like, one on a show. What's the, as you show your honor with Brian Cranston? That's one we got recently. I'm curious, like, which one was it? It was Harlem, I believe. All right, funny story about this, bro. Funny story. I'm glad you brought that up. I didn't even know we had landed that spot. Like, I had somebody in my DM saying like, yo, I love that song that was in Harlem in this season, this episode. They told me, like, the season, the episode. I was like, I didn't even know one of our songs was in there and I went, sure enough, one of our songs was in there. But that's a thing, like, when I'm working with certain agencies, sometimes they'll approve a license and they'll, they'll approve, like, a court request for it. A usage will happen before the final paperwork is signed and we're notified and stuff like that. But that's the thing that happens sometimes. It's like, they'll end up using our song and it'll be even before some of the final paperwork is done, which is so odd to me, but that's just, like, the nature of the business. And I had no clue and I looked on it, I was like, dang, I got, you know, another placement. But that's one of the things, like, it's powerful, the different strategies as you could use in this space because, again, like, when I talk about it to my students, it's like every song ends up being, like, a piece of real estate, you know what I mean? That you can, like, lease out to somebody and as long as I own that piece of real estate, I can keep, you know, license it. Because that, I think that particular song you're talking about is either feeling good or, like, calling me crazy is one of those songs, I think, that we did because I remember that particular spot. But, like, those two songs, we actually got quite a few licenses within this first quarter of the year. So, yeah, man, it's dope. I love what we do. That's really interesting to me. I hadn't heard that before. That they'll, like, approve a song before you're even aware in some cases. Is that because when it comes to some situations, it's, like, time-sensitive? Because we got to, like, get it approved. Yeah, I've, yeah, I've had, and sometimes it's relationship-based too because, like, I work with certain supervisors and they'll need, like, a quick turn around, like, they're just trying to fill a spot and they just know, like, once they get a quote request of, they'll send a quote request, like, hey, this is what we're looking for. Can you approve it at this budget, at these terms? And if we give them a yes, then, typically, they'll just run it and then they'll come back to get a formal license agreement and everything. And as an artist, like, if someone's coming directly to me, I can approve that. Or if I'm working with an agency, they can approve it on our behalf. And sometimes they just notify us, you know, a little later. Certain agencies will have to, like, give approval. There's other agencies where they'll just, like, they'll let us know, like, hey, we got this particular tentative placement. Are you guys cool with these terms? Out of the item, we'll say yes and it'll move. Some other companies, like, it's just kind of built in that they'll approve on, like, on our behalf without, you know, our yes or no. And so you just kind of got to know those different arrangements. But yeah, yeah. So what exactly should an artist do if they want to get in position to be attractive for placements? Yeah. So I would, I always tell artists, it's partly why we started the course that we did and why we were on Clubhouse so heavy, Clubhouse so heavy, like, two years ago. But I would, I would really encourage artists one to, like, if, if st. licensing is just a new term for you, like, just scour the internet to understand just what it actually is and what it means. And simply put, it's just, like, whenever your music is being used for visual media, they need permission to use your music or your music or whoever are, who are the copyright owners of the song. And what they need is called a synchronization license because your music is being synchronized to motion picture and they need a license, a.k.a. permission to use it. So that's, it simply serves us all it is. You know, the details of it look different, you know, per license agreement or that kind of stuff. But that's just what it is. But as far as just positioning yourself, and I just feel like indie artists have a really great advantage because one, if artists are creating everything original from the ground up and you all, like, haven't signed over any of those rights to any, like, larger organizations, it makes you advantageous if you don't understand, you know, get all your direction around the business side because it can make you potentially, like, a one-stop clearance, which just means if Netflix is looking to use your music and they come to you, like, as the artist directly, and it could be like, you know, say it's a few of you all on one track, you know, you can, you know, appoint one person to make, you know, decisions on behalf of everybody or approvals on behalf of everybody. And that person will become, like, a one-stop clearance authority for the placement, which, the reason why it's important because it just makes a license happen way quicker because there's less people involved to kind of muddy and slow down the process. You know, when brands are wanting to license, like, a major artist, they have to go through, like, the label and the publisher and whoever has, you know, vested stake in that because there could be multiple artists working on one song and each artist has their own individual publishing company and their own, you know, separate stake. And then also on the master side, like, somebody could have, you know, master control over, you know, somebody's copyright interest. And so, like, supervisors or, you know, studios have to go through all of these individuals and get a guess from everybody. And when you're dealing with majors, like, they're trying to drive the price point, usually, you know, as high as they can to be able to, you know, cover, you know, their overhead and all that other kind of stuff. So, as an indie artist, if you're able to give all of that clearance directly, it just makes their job way easier and a little bit more advantageous. And as you grow, like, you can begin to learn a little bit more about the different terms and deal types and market rate for different types of placements or just aligning with a licensing agency who can act as you want to stop to be able to kind of do some of that stuff for you, which, you know, makes it even more advantageous. So, that's why it's like, it's really powerful and it gives you a lot of options. But as far as just preparation, I would say make sure, like, whenever you're working with your collaborators, like, you know, you all are signing split sheet agreements, like, you know who owns what parts of the master and the publishing or if you are splitting it evenly, like, making sure that gets documented. Also, you want to make sure, like, as you're creating your music, you're not, you know, using unclear samples or, like, you know, just taking out of the box stems for splice. So, making sure that, you know, all your music is original, like, just trying to, you know, break it down to the simplest form. And because, like, this is a, I always tell people, like, this is a, like, a legal transaction and so if you're licensing your music, you're giving them the assurances that, like, you're giving them assurances that this is, like, available and safe to use because let them find out that a, you know, you told them it was one style where you gave them permission to use your music. But you forgot that one, you know, person that has, like, 5% of the song or something like that. And they find out that, yo, you know, my song I use, I didn't get, I didn't get, you know, my permission wasn't given. Like, technically, they have grounds to, like, you know, pursue legal action for using their music without their permission, even though it was given, but it shouldn't have never been given, but you gave the assurances and so now it kind of creates more of a dynamic. And that's an easy way for whoever, you know, approach you to use your music. Like, they'll never do it again. Like, if a supervisor is looking to use your music and you create that type of hassle for them, they're like, yeah, no, I'm cool. And reason two is because music is usually the last part of a production, you know what I mean? Like, they've already gone through all the scripting, like directing, the filming, the editing, and now they're at the last phase and usually music gets the shortest timeline, you know, part of it. And then it starts to become like, you know, they need the music yesterday, and Clarence did yesterday. And so if at the very last days, they start having complications and it shows up later on down the line, it just messes like, it just is a lot of ramifications for you feel me? Yeah, been there, been there. You ever fumbled the opportunity with one of these situations earlier on? And so, like, how'd you do it? Um, yeah, I've definitely had some missteps, like just doing outreach, like sending too many emails out and I mess around and put the wrong name, like, in the, hey, you know, Amanda, and it's really supposed to be directed to, you know, Jacqueline, you know what I mean? It's just like, I'm not, so that kind of stuff, but I've done stuff like that. And I'm trying to think, I've had situations where contractually, I was only allowed to have these particular batches of songs with this one agency that I gave and then didn't realize that I could, because there's different types of agreements. You can have exclusive or non-exclusive, and I've given exclusive songs to another agency, just unaware that that was the type of arrangement. So that's happened before. Trying to think of some other case scenarios, but yeah, I miss happens, you know what I mean? But I do think being as prepared going into it and just understanding where and how severe the offenses or whatever, you know what I mean? Like that's helpful because a lot of stuff, like I can, you know, you can pivot well from, and if you just, you know, nice person and just play dumb sometimes, it can help, but there's certain things where it's just like, you just really want to have this in order before you get into there. Like stuff's going to happen, but yeah. That makes sense. Because I mean, yeah, on that side, you aren't necessarily dealing with fans as much, but it sounds like the ramifications are messing up because it's more person to person. Yeah. Serious outcomes, because I'm sure these music supervisors also know each other, some of them at least, right? So like... Oh yeah. It's a big community, but it's small at the same time. So where to get around? Like in the same way, like if you're killing it, where to get around? And also too, if you're a little like, you know what I mean? Like stay clear of this person, that can get around too. Yeah. So yeah, it definitely sounds like it's important to know the right moves and be prepared and whatever that looks like, which, and you've given some of those notes, but before we even get too far away from it, Ikora, you got to explain the little situation you had. I need to see what happened, yeah. This was a minute ago. That's probably like seven or eight years ago at this point, but I was managing a rapper and I got an email one day from Adidas and they wanted to use one of his songs for a campaign. And so, you know, so the point you made about all parties involved got to kind of be down. I don't remember the exact agreement, but I think it was like each person would be paid like 8K, right? So it was 8K for the artist. I managed 8K for the future artist and 8K for the producer. And the future artist felt like he should get more money. Like he was like, I think we should fight for like 10K, like 15K and we're like, nah, man, you know what I'm saying? 8K is cool. And yeah, he wouldn't budge on it. Like he wouldn't, he wouldn't, he wouldn't budge on it. We didn't get the placement because like you said, like every, that's when we learned like all parties involved have to be, have to be cool with it, right? Like in one person, then the whole thing doesn't go through. And I was telling Sean what was crazy about it is that maybe around the like the second time he didn't budge. And like we were trying to convince him and everything, he didn't budge. The lady I was talking to was like, yeah, it's such a shame, you know, like Adidas was planning to spend like half a million dollars on this ad campaign running it for like a year and a half, two years. I'm like, man, it's crazy, but we missed on a half a million dollar Adidas marketing app because there's other artists wanting like $3,000 more dollars, you know what I'm saying? Which is a lot better. It would have made that back if we had made the play. You know, especially thinking about back then, you know, and kind of how it would have looked. So now I think about that shit like once a week, you know. No, that's for real. I do you want better. So I got a collaborator, Miles, and I do a lot of work with and he's been doing it way longer than I have, but he was telling me about a company that he's with and they, you know, they've seen like, you know, multiple six-figure placements and stuff like that. And they had like a, you know, it might have been like $150 a side, which means like it's $150 for the publishing and $150 for the master. So it's like $300K all in or something like that. And the company I think was a publisher he was with had the authority and clearances to give a yes, you know what I mean, you know, for their state. And I forget the reason why, but they didn't. And like they walked away from like a six-figure placement and it's like stuff, bro. Like it's crazy. You know what I mean? So I mean, it happens, but it's, and that's why I'm pro-Indy, you know, to be able to kind of have some of those authorities, but I'm also pro like get all your stuff together like upfront so that when opportunities come, you're ready to just pull the trigger and keep it moving, you know what I mean? But I feel you, bro. Even now thinking back on it right, like I wonder like what could have I have done differently? Because at that time I was pretty new to the music industry. So I didn't have, you know, stories and expertise to pull from to help it. I couldn't really give him a projection of what what happened because I'd never seen it before. So would you kind of haven't been in these situations before? Like when you run into a situation like that, what does the process look like for you? Like what are you doing to try to, I guess, persuade the other side, you know? Yeah, man. In those situations, man, it's, I mean, if somebody is really like hard pressed on, just like, like they just stand firm on, this is what I think we should get. I mean, I would really try to like get through the thought process of it and really understand why and because maybe like, I would, I would like understand it more. Maybe they just had, you know, more understanding of the market, you know, I mean, like what is actually commanding and is it just a viable? But, you know, sometimes, like there's times where I've taken lower fees, like sink fees, upfront fees on a placement, knowing that like we could be getting more for this, but sometimes it's just like, it gets your foot in the door to like, you know, build relationship with this person on the other side to court more business. You know what I mean? And so it doesn't always have to play hardball on the first one unless it's just like, you know, you're just completely getting taken advantage of or something like that, which usually, as far as I've seen, like most supervisors or agencies when they're presenting a budget, like they're either trying to, like they're trying to find the most money for, like the artists and also be within budget for their, you know, for the production. But yeah, it's tough. Like if somebody's just unrelenting and not going to move, then it's just one of those things where like, at that point, you might want to find, you know, another collaborator. If they're going to be that difficult, you know what I mean? Moving forward, then it's just not going to be sustainable because you're going to end up, you know, have more of a headache down the line. But one other little hack too, when it comes to just negotiations in general, I like having like agencies also represent us because their job is just to understand and know the market and they're having these conversations all the time. And so they can actually be a good, like free advisory to understand like, what should this be? And you can let them know like, hey, I would love to get to see this much for it. Is that a reasonable? Is that a reasonable? And they can kind of help walk you through whether it maybe is or isn't, you know what I mean? And they can even, even if you want to push more, they can still push more, if you tell them, even if they don't advise it. But, and also too, you can have, like I have arrangements with certain agencies where as an independent artist, sometimes I'll court my own direct deals. And if I don't want to do the paperwork for it or even negotiate like terms, I can have an agency partner that I work with step in to administrate the whole deal at a lower commission. You know what I mean? And so that's another way. And I've done that and there's been situations where they end up finding more money and raising the fee because they just know what the value of the song is more than I might at the time. But they're also doing it at a lower commission. So it's a different way you can maneuver through it. But yeah, to answer your question, like man, if you got people that's just stuck and it's just hard, like, you know what I mean? Like it's hard, you know, if they're not listening to reason, you know what I mean? I was on different pages like at that point. Like I don't work with people who just make it difficult. You know what I mean? The moves like they just have to understand and just be on the same page. Now they don't have a voice or anything like that. We all make collective decisions. But we know why we're doing this and what we're doing. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, and this is something I thought after. I just more so want to know if this is can be done or is ethical or not. Like could we have just remade the song without the other artists and then resubmitted that? I thought about it like yeah. Yeah, it depends on what they have on the original ownership. Like if they just, you know, performed on the master and like they're just like playing keys or whatever, whatever, then usually remake the master and cut them out. You know what I mean? But if they were a part of the publishing side, like the composition and like wrote lyrics or were responsible for the melodies that made up the master, it would be tough. Like on the publishing side to cut them out because they were foundational in making the master because you wouldn't have the master without their song structure. Unless you just completely redid the music or whatever part they did. It's hard to kind of quantify it. But actually I've seen that happen too where somebody did that. Like it was a tough partnership and they were trying to like circumvent one particular artist because they were being actually they didn't want to move forward and they were making it difficult just for the whole team. And one of the artists took the song and just made a whole new version on the master and ended up like, you know, I forget the arrangement but that's happened before where they were able to like just create something new and still make money off it. And they were mad because they end up getting money where they all could have ended up getting money. They just didn't want to play ball. So yeah, time machine. That was right. I mean, it's so hard for me to understand why people would not say okay. Outside of just severely misunderstanding the market because when I look at streaming and then I look at sync, right? When you have an opportunity, it's nothing like it because you got one, right? You know, I've seen 5K, 10K, 15K which I know is some of the lower end deals, right? But let's just say we're talking about 5K instead of getting a million streams, a little bit over a million streams to get that 5K, you got it off right off the bat, right? Ikori talks about a 500K Adidas budget, right? Whatever they're putting it in is something they're going to market. So they're going to create more visibility for your song. Right. Hey, for somebody to market your song. It's like if people came to us, it was, it's a reverse. It was like, hey man, we want to give you some money so we can market your song. Right. Like offer to refuse to me because now you're going to get some shazams and things like that. Your record could still pop just off of that and you get all the streaming cut to yourself. I don't understand why people... I think the only time I see it where it makes more sense, or I don't even say it makes more sense where like people will kind of deny a sync. Typically, they might be just a little further along in their career where, and again, like I'm talking like either, and I'm talking on both sides, like artists who just prioritize and do a lot of stuff and sing and get a lot of licenses made a career out of it. Like at a certain threshold, they might have enough passive income coming through and they know the market enough and they want to establish their value instead of precedence a bit more. Whereas it's like, you know, this is my rate and this is what I value that. You can't meet it and it's cool, you know what I mean? But we just want to move forward on it. I just see that more like the top, top, top tier. And then on the mainstream side, if you're like freaking Bruno Mars or something like that, or Meg Dostowian, you're giving probably that brand more leverage, or awareness, then I'm more... It could be equal, but at the same time, like those are the scenarios where I see it most, but for the majority of NDRs, I saw a thing on Instagram where... I can't remember if it was a pyramid where somebody's talking through just how many... The play count on the amount of songs and users that were uploading Spotify or something like that. And the vast majority of it got less than a thousand plays or something like that. It was something crazy. Yeah, man, so I'm just like, if you're not making any money off the music already, then it kind of doesn't make sense to approve a license, especially if it's like $8,000. You know how many strings you would have to do to get $8,000 on just your portion? You know what I mean? We talking about gross. Like when we talking about those Spotify numbers, if you got other collaborators, that 5K gonna get split however many ways you got how many people want a song. But for what you were saying, it seemed like every person was getting 8K. So effectively, it's just like $32,000 or whatever the math works out to that is the entire fee. You know what I mean? So that's like crazy for one song and they're marketing it and they're getting exposure. It's like, yeah, it's a no brainer to me, but some people just have a different mindset. And yeah, that's the thing, man. It'll be a no brainer, but the person don't have a brain. So you're like, oh, this is real. Unless you're like, you know, like Jay-Z or something like that, because Jay-Z just think different. He might turn down some stuff and just really have a particular, but he probably got like 20 steps ahead and why he's doing it. Most artists don't do that. So most artists like, let me get his bag real quick and just leverage that and scale up. You know what I mean? And I mean, I guess a couple other things that I want to get into while we're on this in particular is one, you've done video games, TV shows. What are all the formats that you've been on so far? Yeah, so done trailers, done commercials, TV promos, video game trailers, been in video game, in TV shows and show. I'm trying to think of what we've had like the opening scene, you know what I mean, of a spot, which is like the opening titles and the end credits are like a thing, like in licensing. Podcasts have had my music license, podcast, microsync space. Pretty much got like all the ones that I mentioned before, like custom music. Like I've done really specific songs for certain spots. So yeah, I've written like children's songs and stuff like that before. Yeah, man, I'm trying to think of anything else, but that's kind of the majority of it. What's your favorite type of thing to get in? Trailers and hats, which trailers are kind of like a form of advertising. But I think one, because my musical interest is just leans more there, it's kind of bigger, it's dynamic. Like I do a lot of cinematic hip hop stuff, real big, high energy. And then also they just pay the most. So like ads are like the cream of the crop when it comes to just licensing. Like advertisement can go anywhere from low five figures up to high six figures. I mean, depending on who you are, where you are. I feel like for indie artists, you'll probably get somewhere around like, I think I've seen maybe as high like 500K for a song, you know what I mean? For indie artists or indie, I'll say, some of them are like indie artists that are like maybe aligned with like an indie publisher. It's like an indie major publisher kind of thing. So they do like courts, sometimes bigger placements and they can drive the price point up a little bit. But, you know, I've seen six figure placements, you know, for people without those type of arrangements. But that's the spaces I love. And now, so too, Ali enough, I like the microsync space. Even though they're probably the lower end of licensing, it's just like some of the companies that I work with like Musicbed is one of them. They have such a subscriber base and the creator economy is just growing so much. And it's like, it's just not going to stop. So there's going to be more demand for it. And the more demand just means more opportunities for us to get our music license. And even though they can't pay, you know, at times like thousands of dollars for a single song, they might can afford somewhere between like, you know, 20 to, you know, 500 bucks or something like that even lower, you know what I mean? But when you're getting a volume of them, like a volume of micro licenses, then it can be a really dope payoff because I've had like five figure monsters just off of, you know, microsyncs, you know what I mean? So yeah, it's so weird. I kind of like the opposite end of the spectrum. One that's probably my least favorite is custom music. And it's for me personally, because I know some people kill it just by doing custom stuff. And that's just, and it's, for me, I don't like it because I like to curate a catalog almost like a product. So think as if you're going into Walmart, like if Walmart got it, you can buy it. If it doesn't, then, you know, you might have to go somewhere else kind of thing. And so I like building up the inventory versus creating, you know, custom stuff all the time, mainly because like if it's, if I'm making something specifically for a kids theme show and it's talking about, like, we've had one where we're talking about like rice. He's like writing a song about rice and how rice looks in different countries like our different, you know, parts of the world. And he's like, I'm never going to use this song anywhere else. Outside of this particular context. And so if you don't win it, then it's just like, you know, you've invested a lot of time in something. And typically like when you're doing customs, they'll do like demo fees or kill fees just for your, just for the attempt. They can be anywhere from like, you know, 200 to 500 bucks up to like a thousand or something like that, depending on the agency or the commission or whoever's commissioning it. But yeah, like at least as a strategy, I just wanted to find, like, I wanted to be more proactive and just see what the market needed and to make something that felt a little bit more artist-centric for me. And that's why I started to do more, like just building and curing my own catalog. But like I said, like customs, you can actually, like I've made money, you know, off of customs as well. So, and some people just have a good knack for writing like really specific stuff. Like I have some students, I can hear like, yo, you would be really dope with customs, you know what I mean? Because you just have a pen that lends itself to writing really specific and creating a story and like through your words. So, yeah, there's a guy I want to introduce to you. Okay. Be able to put him on and guide him. His artist's name is Kibo, but he made $82,000 on Fiverr. Bro, I just saw him, he did like a CSNBC or something like that, like a little, yeah, I've seen that joint. I'm going to drop a talk with him probably next week, we're going in the deeper detail of that background. But that's custom songs, right? He's doing that. But based on what you're saying, I mean, just some of the demo fees will probably be even more than he's getting for some of the custom songs. It didn't an opportunity to make even more, right? So you just understood me a lot deeper in the game. Based on the conversation I had with him, he's not in that world at all. It's just a lot of hands to skill and he can do it quick and specific. So I think he could like run it up. He just needs to, so, yeah, opportunity there for real for somebody like that, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And he's already doing it. The skill sets there. And it's one of those things. And also, too, if he has a good cataloger, we had another good colleague friend of mine. She owns a company and they're underneath Quincy Jones Productions. But she was one of our special guest speakers and she was mentioning that because one of the students was actually like, how do I break into that space? If like to showcase custom music, you kind of have to get custom jobs. But in order to get custom jobs, you kind of have to have custom music showcase. And so she was just saying like, just being creative and maybe doing mock custom songs for different brands or whatever showcase which you can do. But for him, since he's already doing it and actual client work, it just might be a good showcase. If he's pitching and looking to talk to other companies that do a lot of just custom work, it's like, hey, this is my portfolio, what I can do, I would love to work with you with any capacity. So yeah, he has like a pretty crazy catalog because he was like, YouTube was like, he would just be doing the work. But then he'll find out that it was somebody big or whatever, like a YouTube. All right. Man, I didn't know. Because I get it, right? We've all heard this type of thing in the music industry. Like, oh yeah, I'm gonna run it up or that or that. You're like, all right, whatever. Because it could never happen, right? Someone makes a promise that it never happens. He's like, oh man, this person wasn't lying. They really were big. Or this really was a dope situation, which actually makes me think of one other thing from the talk with him that I want to know that it might have any type of work in your space or potential risk in your space. So he did one of those spots for somebody or maybe I'll just think it back to it. He did a job for somebody. And again, you're not looking at everybody who's involved. You're just doing the work, executing. And it ends up being this third party. This is during Trump versus Hillary. And it was like a third, right? He wrote the song or whatever. And then they asked him to do a video. He actually did the video. He was like, man, I wasn't even necessary to believe. I was just trying to make the money, right? And he didn't know that they had a cloud or anything like that. He didn't really think it was going to see the light of day. Interesting moment where his dad hit him up and was like, yo, bro, what's up? Can you believe XYZ? Have you ever seen or come across moments in music supervision where it might not be writing a song specifically or even being in a video specifically where there's things that are out of alignment with values? Like, I know you came out of Christian hip hop space, right? Like navigator. Yes. I mean, that's not a thing. I mean, it is. And people just have different expectations and desires of where and how their music is being represented. And those are things that if you're working with like an agency partner who's pitching your music, you can make that clear. And clear of if you know ahead of time the types of placements you would prefer not to be a part of having music associated with. Also within their agreement, sometimes they have like a clause or something like that that said they need to get your approvals for like any political stuff for any tobacco use or any like taboo things or else like taboo things which is sensitive things to certain groups of people. They don't include those. And I'm sure you can do an inclusion or just let them know and or just be really upfront to say like, hey, can I have approvals for the types of licenses that come through before we give a final yes to make sure because typically when you're getting a licensed request like studios or supervisors or creative directors or whoever is managing a project when they're sending out a briefs of requests for music there, putting like scene descriptions and you'll kind of know the type of show it is. So like, you know, if it's like a P Valley type show and you just know a rip, like, you know, it might not be the best look for me as a Christian Hip Hop artist that my song and P Valley track, you know, I mean, no, you know, no shade or no judge or anything. It's just that just might be a real conversation. And so you have to in arrangements, you can be upfront and vocal to say like either these type placements I'd like to avoid or can there just be approval that you like can I have final approval on the type of placements that we have before we just go ahead and instantiate it. But that's a real thing. I can't think of any placements that I've had that we've rejected because we've had I mean, I've had like pictures for like like Makersmart, you know, I mean, I'm trying to think there was actually only you on your honor show with Brian Cranston. I think it's a showtime joint. But there was like they use one of our songs for a scene where like this kid was like getting tortured or something like that, like in a basement or whatever. And so like for me, I look at our music as is a bit of like a character, you know what I mean, to kind of tell the story of the show. And so like, and I'm sure there's probably some things out in a running against where it's like, yeah, I don't know if I, you know, I rock with that. But for the most part, I try to think of our music in service of the story that's trying to be told and just, you know, play context for that versus a statement about my value alignment to a degree. But that's more nuanced. You can go deeper into that. But that's just like the psychology or the philosophy around how you can navigate through it. Got you. Do you know any artists that have blown up off a sink? So you would consider that? Because I know I can't remember the lady, Kate or something like that. Kate Bush or something? Kate Bush. Yeah, Australian things. He was already big at one period of time, right? And I'm not sure if this is factual that there was a placement that played a big part of creating Spark or Lizzo at one point in time. So what was that if it was true, you would know about it. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard that as well. Like she was heavy into licensing her music and just kind of use that as leverage and curate of her own artist sound and stuff like that. And it's so funny because it probably makes sense why her music sounds so ad friendly. Like if you really kind of study music that's working for ads and you listen to how Lizzo stuff is set up because it's, I mean, she talks about feeling good. Like it's brand new day. She's unique. Like it's real big. It's high energy. It's a lot of brass running, like all that stuff, like ads eat up. You know what I mean? And it's also female empowerment. Like she's hella big on female empowerment. And that's a big theme that gets requested a lot. So it's one of those things if she wasn't, then it would make a lot of sense. If she wasn't, then she's doing something she is not aware of. But if she is and it makes a lot of sense looking at her music now. But I'm trying to think of some other artists that kind of got a jump. So I mean, there's some other artists who are really, who really created a strong artist career, but they're not as big as Lizzo. Like Easy McCoy or like The Siege was one of them. They got really big audience base and like listenership off of licensing their music. Vo Williams is another one. He's like, you know, performed at, I think he's performing at, what is it, the thunder or the lightning? I can't remember the hockey team that's out in Tampa, but he's a face for that. Like he'll go out and perform there. And he has his music used for, what is it, like the bucks, I think, for one of their campaigns. And so he's started to curate even more of an artist's identity. Yeah. And I just know it's powerful just for awareness in general. I mean, she's already popping, but I guess a good little case in point because Dochi with TDE, she came out with her song Crazy, which was already, I think, doing some numbers and got buzzed. But I just saw it like, I was literally in conversation early. I was into John Wick 3 or now John Wick 4. I was watching a couple of weeks ago and seeing the trailers run, literally like in the span of three trailers, I heard her song, Swice. So she was in like this, it was a, I forget the name of the movie, but it had like an Indian cast, female leads in martial arts type stuff. And they were using this trailerized version of Dochi's track, Crazy. And then there was a trailer that ran in between it and then there was another one that was a predominantly Asian cast, female driven, kind of high energy, high energy, and they were both kind of comedic flavors of movies or trailers. But they were using a different version of Dochi's track that was trailerized. You know what I mean? And so again, it creates even more exposure for that track because I don't know where the lifeline of that song has been since they released. Because typically when you put out a song, unless you just got some crazy marketing in, like it's just on a downward trend as far as listenership. But I'd imagine like that type of insertion of or injection of like putting this into a new trailer can drive up awareness again and get Dochi even more of a fan base outside of what she's already done because she's super dope. She already has a fan base, but if it can work in that sense for Dochi, it can work for at indie artists, you know what I mean? Because the same strategies are true. I mean, it's just different people insert different artists. Do you have a plan, your marketing campaigns for your songs around like certain drop days for placements? Like, oh, you're looking like, yo, this movie comes out on the 13th. Right. Doing certain things to lead up to it. Do you work it that way? You know, I think I would like to do that more. I don't. I don't even know if it's I don't, is that sometimes I just don't have the opportunity to a lot of times my music is either already out and they're, you know, it's just already being worked and just works for a spot. But that is a strategy that people do if they know ahead of time and supervisor sometimes will like, like no, either at times want to align with an artist that is, you know, up and coming or whatever and try to plan a release or not even like the show crying when I'm coming out, when it come out, it doesn't matter, but they'll let them know ahead of time like, hey, this song is coming out. I mean, this show is coming out, you know, on this day, you know, probably be good to, you know, definitely make sure your music is out around that time or you just kind of leverage the news of this song or the show releasing and your song being in it as a campaign boost. But, but yeah, I haven't done it as much as I would like to, but it is a strategy that's helpful when it works. And sometimes brands will not only notify you, but they'll want to partner with you and even maybe do some exposure around the artists that they're working with, depending on the type of spot it is, you know what I mean? Yeah, like a pop up or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's why I too, like, I talk about licensing from the aspect of like, if you are just an artist producer somewhere in obscurity, you don't even have a social following, you don't know numbers and that like sink is for like, it's still for you, you know, you can still make a healthy living off of licensing and music without all the other metric. But it also is very helpful, you know, you use every tool as your disposal to, you know, garner attention, awareness and scale your business. But like having fans, having streams, you know, obviously helps, you know, it gives you more leverage. And so I've seen, you know, Breeze come through now where they're looking for up and coming artists to align with. And there's a story there to help project, like when we was at South by Southwest, I was listening to a panel about music and games, like music for games. So they had like, as you're doing a DK over like the 2k kind of franchise and all the music there, they had somebody from Microsoft talking somebody from SoundCloud. And another rep from they do a lot of web three stuff with Deadmouse. And so they're coming up their own platform. And they were talking about how like, sometimes they are like, they're looking on, actually, SoundCloud did a partnership with 2k at one point to try to align themselves with like upcoming artists. And so they're looking, trying to see their story, there was a I forget the name of the artist, but it was one, one of the little, you know, one of those little, you know, little rappers, they saw like, they were, you know, heavy on SoundCloud. It may not have the type of bass they do now, but they were heavy on like gaming and stuff like that. And they would be on online, like freestyling or battling their friends or whatever. And I think, I think it was Microsoft that kind of caught wind of it and did a partnership with them where they were and end up really accelerating, you know, that particular artist career. I can't remember the names, but so that's why I'm saying like, you can leverage your existing artist platform as well to your advantage with licensing. It's just an additive, but it's not a prerequisite. You feel me? Yeah. So now the thing you touched on earlier with Liz, I want to go back to her before we get out of here. Yeah. You made it sound like there is a formula of sorts that you can build your music out for, right? You say Lizzo wrote a lot of women empowerment things, right? The way the Sonics work, they were great for commercials. Can you tell me more about what that strategy might look like? Because I'm sure there's different ways, but let's just say, if I'm Lizzo, right, or somebody in that bag, what are they probably doing in terms of saying, these are the type of songs or commercials I want to have. These are the type of trailers I want to get in. What are they building for? Yeah. Yeah. So I think for Lizzo now, she probably doesn't prioritize it in the same way she used to. She did because now she's larger than life in a sense. Her brand is so polarizing now. She can create what she wants without having to prioritize a brand placement, so to say, or at least in the same way she was. Now, for any artist, it's for us to always, I want to always tell my students that when you're positioning yourself to start licensing and to court more licenses more frequently, you have to adopt the mindset that you're writing music for brands, not just for fans. So effectively, the brands become your fans because they're the ones who are actually finding the utility for your music. Currently, as an artist, your fans are the ones who are the greatest consumers of your music, and so it serves you to try to understand them and create music that they're going to rock to, that you were aligned with, all that kind of stuff. When it comes to working for brands, they have particular needs that they're looking for because they're trying to either tell a story or sell a product, and so your music has to support that, and it's not the start of show. So you really have to try to empathize and understand if I'm looking to get into a Nike, do some market research, what type of visual content is Nike putting out, and based on the segments of content they're putting out, because they might have some editorial stuff or just some commercial stuff or brand partnerships that they align their music a little different, like what are the different segments of type of visual media that Nike makes, and what music are they actually leaning to because Nike can go anywhere from very emotive, theatrical, score-driven stuff that's like the black and white, very heartfelt, overcoming motivational type pieces, but they can also do a high energy sports thing. So it's just understanding, seeing the rhythms and what they've used in the past, because typically it can be a good indication of what they need, moving forward as well. And because brands pay attention to other brands, if I make a song with Nike in mind, it's not uncommon for an adidas to maybe want something that's similar to that or a new balance or whatever, or even just like an energy-driven company, because they all to some degree kind of live in the same, not industry, but you kind of get what I'm saying, I think they're just influenced, they just feel familiar. So that's why it's really good to just start looking to say, what are the types of placements I would like to record? If it's more sports-driven stuff, let me just start studying and seeing what's there. And that becomes a good launching point to say, all right, can I make a song that would live on a playlist of these types of songs that I'm hearing? If I can make a song that's inspired or influenced by this type vibe, and if I had it on the playlist and I'm skipping from track to track, minds would flow right in line with it. That's where you start to kind of reverse engineer and start having more sustainable success, because you are prioritizing and empathizing with what brands actually are needing and using. And it's a lot easier because it's so public and it's entertainment. And so you can just go Google something or go watch TV. And you're getting education right then and there versus having to go, where do I look to see what music's being used for? Just go watch TV. You go watch commercial. And same thing for different segments, like what makes up a trailer? When I go sit and there for the first 15 minutes, I want to get there early so I can see what type of music you're using. What are the genres that I'm hearing in that particular movie? What genre do they use? How do they use it? And then you can compare that to other similar type movies and stuff. So it just becomes a big research project, which is mad fun because I get to watch something entertaining and learn and then go create the music that would essentially fit for it. So that's what I would advise as far as just trying to study and prep and figure out how to make the music that brands actually need. Go listen to what brands are actually using now and then use it as a starting point when you're creating your own. Well, isn't it there, man? I'm appreciative of all of the game and knowledge that you've brought to the table in this talk. You got to give them somewhere to follow you. We'll put your name up, of course. But yeah, where is the best place to keep up with you right now? Yeah, I'll make it easy and just go follow me at Juster Raj and that's J-U-S-T-B-R-A-J on IG. That's my most active platform. If you're interested in getting your music into TV and film and learning how to license it yourself, just shoot me a DM and me and my team will get back to you. You can tell you about some of the other offers that we have or just ways that we might be able to help and point you in the right direction. One thing I didn't mention in my company, seeing here, we also do some song representation. We're a boutique agency. I like to call it a music house. So we don't take on a lot, but we do listen to all the submissions that come through, at least at this point. And so we get too much of demand and we might have forgotten another strategy. But that was birth out of us trying to find more opportunities for independent artists to get their music and TV and film outside of education, also actually providing those opportunities. But again, we run lean and we curate pretty heavily. So feel free to send some stuff out there. But I encourage knowledge over anything because I feel like as an indie artist, learning how to understand how to get your music and its TV and film and with this business is makes you way more autonomous versus always having to go through somebody in middleman a deal for you. So yeah, you can follow me there and keep up with us and all the new stuff we got coming up. Hey, everybody, you just tuned in to yet another episode of No Labels Necessary featuring Daraj, I'm Brandon and Sean, and I'm Cora and we out. Peace. Go.