 Okay, good evening everybody welcome to the January 17th cultural heritage board miss camp if we could have I'm gonna call the Board to order and miss camp we could have a roll call Thank You chair Muser. Do I have board member boron? Board member Carney here board member fennel Here Board member Klein Board member Marslyn Vice chair Garrett is absent and chair Muser Here the record reflect that we have all board members with the exception of vice chair Garrett present at our meeting Okay, moving on to item 2 approval of minutes Does anybody have any changes to the minutes from December 6th or December 13th of 2023? Okay, I do have a For December 13th 2023, I'm wondering if we could add That vice chair Garrett Made a friendly amendment and I believe it was Board member fennel who seconded that friendly amendment that Modified that the resolution if we could just just add those two things seeing No other changes So the minutes for December 6th and the 13th then we'll stand approved as amended Okay, recording us As camp do we have any public comment on item 2 approval of minutes? No, Jeremy is there we do not Okay, moving on item 3 public comments. We are now taking public comments Non-agenda matters this the time when any person may address The board on matters not listed on this agenda, but which are within the subject matter jurisdiction of this committee Miss camp, can you please provide instructions to the public if you are in chambers and wish to make a comment? Please make your way to the podium Chair Muser we have no one in chambers for comments Okay, public comment is closed Now item for board business I'll read our statement of purpose Principal duties of the board include undertaking and updating historic inventories or surveys recommending designation of landmarks and preservation districts reviewing proposed alterations to historic buildings and promoting public awareness of public of Preservation issues So item 4.2 is board member reports do any of our board members have any reports they'd like to make tonight Okay, saying none And on item 4.3 we don't have any other business So Miss camp Do we need to have public comment? No term user. There's no public comments today. I am five to depart our reports so Our staff liaison miss Murray to have a department for us Do at a recent meeting one of the board members Asked me about an item that came before the board on a concept basis for 135 mill street Several of my think a couple months ago now And I ran into part of the design team and they gave me an update that they're getting ready to Rear to submit their project so that should be coming Before many of you although some of you will have to recuse yourselves and the relatively near future. I Also want to announce really good news Our Janden briscoe city planner who several months ago was hit by a car While he was walking his dog and he's been in recovery ever since he came back to work last week So we're super happy and yay. We're getting closer to having a full staff so I Think that sums it up. There's something else and I can't remember what it was Note self make notes If I think about it, I'll get it for you next time I Think of us Murray had any questions miss Murray I'm wondering if maybe at the next meeting We could get an update on Fremont Park See kind of where they are I can't commit to the next meeting, but I can commit to getting you an update I'll check in with our parks department and find out where they are Okay, that'd be great. Yeah, I keep getting questions I'll question you yeah, we can also provide the contact information Scott Wilkinson in our parks department and if you want to share my my Phone number email address phone number is always best I'm happy to forward people along as well and they can get it direct from him, but I will still schedule a Meeting great. Thank you public comment for department reports If you're in chambers and wish to make a comment, please wake up make your way to the podium Term user we have no comments. Okay, seeing none. I'll close public comment a Statement of abstentions or items on the agenda this evening. I wouldn't think that we would probably have any on these items So saying none We'll move on we have no consent items. So that brings us to item 8 our first scheduled item And this is for item 8.1 the downtown station area historic resource evaluation And our presentation tonight is going to be given by Sheila Wolski So I will turn it over to you miss Wolski. Thank you, chair Muser and members of the cultural heritage board and I am Sheila Wolski a planner with the city of Santa Rosa and The item before you tonight is the city's recent historic resources evaluation project Which resulted in the historic resources survey report? The purpose of tonight's meeting is acceptance of this survey report by the cultural Heritage Board and Just a kind of a housekeeping Item order of operations will be all deliver a PowerPoint presentation Midway through that the consultant With ARG architectural resources group will pop in and then I'll finish with a PowerPoint presentation Okay, as many of you are aware the city of last completed similar historic resources survey reports in 1977 in 1989 it's been more than 20 years since this type of survey has been undertaken The difference between these previous survey reports is that this one focuses on properties located in the downtown station area specific plan and those properties that are not within an existing historic preservation district The city's adopted downtown station area specific plan includes a policy for the city to conduct a historic context statement and historic resources survey of age eligible properties in the downtown station area and this work realizes that policy Further this evaluation was made possible by SB 2 planning grant funds from the state for projects that streamline housing approvals and accelerate housing production Some of the results of the Evaluation are that the city now has an additional body of historic work to complement the previous surveys And this includes a rich historic context statement as well as the survey findings for individual properties Because the survey report provides initial historic resource evaluation on properties It will provide greater predictability for development in the downtown station area Developers developers will have preliminary information on potential historic resources of a property If the property appears to have potential historic resources based on the survey report an Applicant would be required to provide additional historical analysis for projects that are subject to CEQA The findings are anticipated to streamline housing in this area specifically for properties that were determined to not contain potential for historic resources of which there are 354 properties Barring additional information provided to the city that they there may be historic resources on the site These properties would not be required to provide additional analysis Finally as a point of clarification No properties surveyed have been designated as historic This would require council direction and further actions to create new historic preservation districts and Rezone properties to the H combining district However, because of this report the city now has additional information That could be used in the event the council would like to pursue future designation and so now I'm going I'm going to pause my report and Start the applicants report or a presentation I should say Okay, so now I'll turn it over to the city's project manager for this effort Mary Ringhoff with architectural resources group and Mary led the project team for this effort Thanks Sheila. Can you hear me? Okay? I don't clear Thanks, I'll turn my video off as I'm giving the presentation, but I just wanted to introduce myself So you had a face to put with the name? So my name is Mary Ringhoff. I'm a senior associate at architectural resources group We have offices in San Francisco, Portland and Los Angeles And I'm actually in the Los Angeles office. Although right now I'm in my home office And on this project we worked with Can I see the next slide please Sheila? We worked closely with painter preservation Diana painter is a local expert. She's now based in Spokane, Washington But she still does a lot of work in Santa Rosa And maintains an office there So she was really our go-to for the local knowledge and she was an invaluable part of the team So this slide just shows go ahead and turn off my video Just a little bit about our team I mentioned Diana and ARG with our three offices We do large-scale historic resource surveys like this all the time as part of the planning group The sort of planning studio in each office, but each of our offices has Architecture and conservation as well as planning Next slide please Just a quick overview. What is a historic resources survey? It's the process of identifying Documenting and evaluating historic properties within a certain neighborhood community city project area or region with a certain time period reference So as Sheila mentioned Santa Rosa has had two previous city-wide surveys in 1977 and 1989 These were very good surveys, especially the 1970 they're both very good But 77 is sort of remarkable for how good it was for its time period when a lot of Surveys were very very minimal in terms of their information But both of these surveys had a ton of good information and much of our work was based on what had already been done The the thing is that surveys do need to be updated periodically Because professional standards for documentation change over time Some properties inevitably are lost to demolition or extensive alterations And then other properties just reach the age threshold At which they'd typically be considered for historical significance. So that's 50 years old So that's why we had a Project period cut off of 1974 where you're hitting that 50-year threshold And the previous surveys did not look at any properties that were built after 1945 So they really were focusing on the earlier period of development in Santa Rosa But with the survey update we looked at properties up through 1974 in order to capture the really important post-war development that was happening Especially in the downtown station area during this time Next slide This is a map that shows the specific survey area within the downtown station area So because there are these previously designated preservation districts It's not the entire Downtown station area that had it had to be resurveyed. We did not revisit any preservation districts or any individual Individually designated landmarks. So those are the the light gray are the preservation districts and the dark gray are designated individual landmarks We also had Because we had the GIS data that showed Parcels with properties that had been constructed after 1974 or we didn't survey those either We did take a look at them in the first phase of survey the reconnaissance just to make sure because sometimes The assessor's data can be incorrect. So we did catch a few that had older properties on them But on the whole that was pretty accurate. So we within those parameters The total number of properties that we surveyed within the downtown station area was 779 Next slide This is just kind of an overview of some of the purposes and benefits of a survey Sheila addressed some of this stuff, but really in this case It's about streamlining infill housing development on sites that we can confirm or not historically significant We can also identify properties that are potentially historically significant in case someone wants to designate something in the future Or just so the planning department has that information when someone comes to the counter with the permit request So this facilitates sequel environmental review overall deepens the knowledge of Santa Rosa's historic downtown Strengthens appreciation for the city's historic built environment and helps to ensure consistent guidance and management for future proposed projects within the project area and I just want to re-emphasize that there's this common Misconception that historic resource surveys actually designate properties as historic landmarks, but this is not the case a Survey simply identifies properties that are potentially eligible for future designation And the survey provides the baseline information that we need to justify the identification of them as potential resources So designation is a whole separate process with an application public notification and multiple rounds of review Next slide Here's the basic timeline of the project. It kicked off in April 2021 And then you can look through all the project steps and phases here. We had a kickoff community meeting We did the reconnaissance level survey Submittal of the preliminary findings all of that happened in 2021 in 2022 we submitted the draft historic context statement, which is the evaluative framework that we need in order to Be able to identify which properties might be associated With historic patterns of development or historic individuals ethnic groups or events January to July of 2022 was when we were working on our intensive level survey where we documented All of those properties within the area the ones that were not Found to be potentially eligible received very very Basic identification the focus was on the properties that did appear to be potentially eligible Submitted the findings in August and then the draft survey report in October And then after comments from the city we submitted the final survey report in 2023 So at this point the the planning department is Going is planning on using the survey findings for informational purposes And then today I didn't put this on the slide, but today One of the final phases of this project is your review By the cultural heritage board So I didn't want to get into sort of the nuts and bolts of the methodology Because all that information is in the documents that you received for this agenda item But I'm happy to answer questions about that after we're done with the presentation if there's any questions Next slide so now we can get into the actual findings of the survey So like I said, we looked at a total of 779 properties Found that 354 of them appear Potentially, you know pretty definitely not eligible They don't appear to be historically significant and this means that project review and approval can be streamlined for these properties There were 149 properties that were identified as potentially Eligible as individuals Most of them were at the local city of Santa Rosa level With smaller numbers that appear eligible for listing in the California Register of Historic Resources and an even smaller number but you know Not to be denied of Properties that look like they could be eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places We also identified seven potentially eligible historic districts together comprising 252 contributing and non-contributing properties and then also 57 properties that are potentially eligible as both individuals and district contributors We also found that there were 20 properties that are potentially eligible for inclusion in existing preservation districts There there were 18 Directly adjacent to the Cherry Street preservation district and two that were directly adjacent to all of Park These are properties that shared the same period of significance and Reflected the same patterns of historic development as those districts So that's why we recommended them for potential inclusion within those preservation districts And then we had four properties that couldn't be evaluated one because if its Significance appears to be later in time Which was not covered in the context under the scope of this particular project, but we thought it was worth pointing out anyway And then 3d just couldn't we're not visible from the public right of way. So we were unable to evaluate Next slide So like I said the historic context statement is the framework that you use to figure out Whether a resource is significant potentially significant and eligible for listing In the National Register California Register or as a Santa Rosa landmark And our historic context statement really built on the foundation that was established by those previous surveys And then expanded past 1945 With the new context for postwar development and urban renewal between 1946 and 1974 At the city's request we also pulled out a specific theme for ethnicity and culture because we did find a number of Properties that were historically associated with the Italian-American community in the downtown station area And then we have the architecture and design Context which addresses the entire range of property Styles and ages that were found in the project area So the main thing to remember about a historic context statement is that it's not a Comprehensive history of the project area or of the city It's more focused on broad patterns of development as conveyed by existing buildings structures sites and objects So the emphasis is really on the surviving physical environment Next slide This graphic shows the locations of the properties that do not appear eligible for listing They're there in yellow Like I said, 354 properties Typical reasons why they were not found to be potentially eligible is because They were not representative of historically significant patterns of development Or they were substantially altered which meant even if they Had an early date if they were so altered that they could no longer convey their historic associations or their Historic in this that a character then those were not considered eligible Next slide these light blue areas are the seven Potentially eligible historic districts that we identified They contain a total of 309 properties. So that total includes those 57 properties that appear individually eligible as well as eligible as contributors to their particular Potential districts The big one and I'll get into more detail on each of these districts in a minute But just to point out the big one right there to the left of the train tracks That's the Wilson Ripley district and it was you know by far the largest of the districts that we identified Next slide so these are some examples of The districts that we identified as potentially eligible these three districts are residential and mixed use Wilson Ripley like I said is the biggest one by far. It has 208 properties Portions of this district had been previously identified in other surveys as North Railroad Square It is very similar to Railroad Square in terms of its time period and its development pattern, although it's more residential There are some commercial and some industrial properties within this potential district, but mostly residential And the residential resources reflect Working-class housing that's close to people's places of employment. So in that way It's very similar to the West End preservation district Also in the apparent prominence of the Italian-American community in this area. So I think There were definite historic ties between those two areas and their proximity to the railroad tracks Was a big part of it with the industrial area there and all the work along the line and a period of significance for Wilson Ripley looks like 1870 to 1955 Third Street, which is shown at the lower left picture The Third Street potential historic district has 28 properties It was historically all residential, although some of the properties have since been converted to commercial or to multi-family and its period of significance is 1880 to 1922 and the Sonoma Avenue Potential district at the top Contains 22 properties. It's largely residential It has one commercial property and one church in it, but the rest of them are mostly single-family houses and This one has a period of significance of 1903 to 1947 Next slide We had two Potential districts that are more of a mix of uses not really residential Except for some of the mixed-use multi-story buildings Mostly commercial and institutional So they are the fourth street potential district and the Civic Center potential district Fourth Street has 17 properties This is small. It's it's really just one block of fourth street But it contains the most intact grouping of buildings from Santa Rosa's historic downtown commercial core so The blocks on on either end of this central block of fourth Street. I think that we decided that they had experienced Too many alterations to individually individual properties to really get that same Historic feeling across but this one block we we thought did retain that ability to convey its significance And its period of significance is 1908 starts in 1908. So these are the some of the buildings that were rebuilt First after the earthquake in 1906 and then all the way through 1971 So it really does capture the evolution of the block up through the urban renewal that played such a big part in reshaping downtown Then the other district property of this type was the Civic Center, which has 15 properties in it This is centered on the late 60s Civic Center It also so it's a lot of institutional properties But also commercial properties banks and and those kind of things And this area really reflects the impact of urban renewal on downtown And the change in architectural character that that happened at that time We have a period of significance of 1964 up to 1983 for this district Next slide Then we had two potentially eligible districts that are sort of unique properties The first is in Wally Gardens. This has 13 contributing elements and a period of significance of 1897 to 1974 and this one appears to be Potentially eligible as the last remaining historic large-scale agricultural property within the downtown station area And this this also had the The barn in and Wally Gardens, which was constructed between 1915 and 1919 He was also identified as a potentially eligible individual property And then the other sort of unusual district was Juilliard Park Which has 11 elements specific elements that contribute to its significance in addition to its overall landscape design And layout This was a depression era era park With a period of significance starting in 1931 and continuing through its its final implementation in 1957 So this was a really interesting expression of institutional development during the depression and also the importance of new deal programs in Santa Rosa as in other parts of the country in Really contributing to changes in the institutional environment And this the landscape design was by master landscape architect Howard Gilkey. So it's also His contribution was an important part of the significance of this part Next slide Moving on from districts and into individual properties So this map shows both districts potentially eligible districts and potentially eligible individuals the individuals are dark blue and the districts are light blue I know it's getting kind of busy on the slide But I thought it might be useful to see That a lot of the potentially eligible individuals are either within Potential districts or a lot of them are immediately adjacent to them This is a wide range of types and Ages and reasons for significance. And so I've kind of grouped them in the next few slides As examples of each of these different reasons for potential eligibility And then you can get an idea of kind of the range That you've got in the downtown station area Next slide So a lot of the potentially eligible individuals are they look like they looked to be eligible because they embody Historically significant patterns of development So the best represented is early residential development in this area 56% of the individually the potentially individually eligible properties found in the survey are single family residences And the oldest known property that was identified that hasn't already been designated is the bopst house at 812 college avenue That's the upper left photo. It's it was built circa 1870 For early industrial development, we had a handful of Pre 1906 examples that hadn't already been designated. There are a lot more in the railroad square District, but we did find a few One really interesting example was the Lee brothers warehouse, which is that upper center photo This is 625 Wilson street Built between 1905 and 1907. We weren't able to nail down the exact date And this one is also notable as an early example of concrete block construction. So that was a very rare construction method That early in the 20th century For commercial development We did not find any intact pre 1906 earthquake commercial buildings There are some designated already in railroad square and elsewhere But there were no Sneaky secret ones, which we had been hoping to find some but it does not appear that there are any others that are intact But there are quite a few examples of The immediate post earthquake rebuilding in the city's transition period So one example is the upper right photo 606 to 608 fifth street This is circa 1915 and it's just one of several really nice commercial examples from this period Within the commercial development context, we also identified examples of post world war two development within the context of urban renewal And then institutional development the earliest Ecclesiastical property that we identified was the church of the incarnation on mendicino avenue On the term 1873 and then there are several later examples So Between the ones I talked about and then the other photos shown here you can you can see that there is quite a range of These kinds of properties that really embody the historically significant patterns of development Next slide, please And then we have properties that appear eligible For their association with a significant individual Or for their association with the historical italian american community in the downtown station area So the upper left Picture that's an example of one that appears significant for its association with important individuals This is the harris residence. It was built in 1897 But the period of significance for individual association was 1953 to 1995 when it was the home of reverend homer harris and beatrice harris who were Leaders in the city's post war african american community And then for properties that were associated with the italian american community The wilson ripley district as a grouping of properties appears to meet this eligibility criterion And then we also found some really cool examples of these mixed use buildings That typically had italian groceries on the bottom floor And then residential on the upper floor some of which were boarding houses For single italian american men who were working nearby Next slide And then we also had quite a few properties that were identified as potentially eligible for As excellent examples of an architectural style or as rare examples of a property type So when it comes to the property type, that's sort of what i was referring to with that lee brothers warehouse the concrete block one Um Which is um, it's not significant as a spectacular example of an architectural style But it's very important um as a rare example of a concrete block constructed industrial property The emwally barn that i mentioned is also a good example of a rare Rare example of a property type But architectural style, um, I know that you all deal with this all the time and you know that the downtown station area Has a really fantastic range of architectural styles We identified residential commercial and institutional examples on a wide variety of Sizes and scales As well as levels of detail and articulation And across a pretty wide date range So that was a really interesting exercise was looking at all the different styles Next slide This is just kind of the final findings map If we need to come back to it, uh, we can this may help to Answer questions. It's again. This is a very busy map. Um, it makes sense if you look at it long enough But this is just so we have all of the information in one place Um, and just to clarify on this map The light gray areas are the areas that were post 1974. So they weren't surveyed Um, and the pink areas are the districts Hold on. Let me dog out. I'm sorry Sorry about that. Um So I think that's about all that I wanted to give an overview of so I can hand it back to Sheila and then I'm happy to Answer questions after she finishes her part Great, thanks mary And if you'll give me just a moment, I'll jump back Okay So the city now has additional information on properties that can be accessed via the city's website Um for and this is an example of the page where all this information is located the survey report and all the individual department of parks and rec or dpr forms For developers property owners and the general public interested in viewing the survey report and findings All information has been loaded on this web page, which is also a link in your agenda packet materials Staff has sent this agenda packet of materials to the historical society of santa rosa as well as the sonoma county history and genealogy library Staff also has access to this information and can provide it to interested parties at the front counter Public comments were received from a couple property owners in existing Historic preservation districts, which were forwarded to the board as well The properties that were mentioned And about which there was interest or concern were those in existing historic preservation districts And just as a reminder the survey only evaluated Age eligible properties that are not in existing historic preservation districts in the downtown station area This project qualifies for a sequel exemption under section 15 306 which covers data collection projects And as mentioned earlier staff is recommending the cultural heritage board except the downtown station area historic resources survey report As required by the sb2 planning grant This action serves to demonstrate to the state that the project is complete and the report has been accepted Um, if there are any questions, I'm here. Here's my contact any information for anyone calling in My phone number is 707 543 4705 an email is s wall ski At srcity.org and as mary mentioned, she's also available for questions. Thank you Okay, thank you for a very nice presentation um I'd like to ask any of the board members if they have any technical questions or clarifications They'd like to ask at this time Okay, then at this time, uh, miss camp have we could open a public comment Give instructions Chair muser, we have no public in the room and we're not taking comment via zoom So I think we're good to say no public comment for this meeting. Okay. We'll close public comment um So I'd like to invite one of the board members to make a motion If they Going to We're all getting to the resolution I would all go ahead Okay, board member fennel I um, I make the motion that we accept the report How do I how do I how do you want me to phrase this? Board member fennel. Yes, if you want to just read the title on the re on the resolution itself Are you are you able to open it? I do Okay, I would like to Make the motion that we accept the resolution to the cultural heritage board to accept the downtown station area specific plan report Um And wave the reading of the text I'll second that motion after Okay, so we have a motion made by board member fennel and a second by board member carney to accept the resolution for the cultural heritage board city of santa rosa accepting the downtown station area historic resources survey report And uh so At this time I'd like to open up to the board for discussion. So do we have Just general discussion before we take a vote there was a um Some correspondence that came in late And one of the gals had asked About a couple of different properties. I don't know if that was something you had addressed already Thank you board member marzlin. Yes. Um, we did receive two communications from some members of the community All the properties they were interested in are in existing Historic preservation districts which are not covered in the scope of this work And staff got back to them with that information Wonderful. Thank you Good comments. I just wanted to say I thank you so much for the presentation and um Incredible exhaustive work. I mean it has um really interesting to to read about all the types of properties and types of uh Periods that they correspond with uh, just the incredible stuff. Thank you Remember porn I will be very excited and interesting to see how this all pans out and which properties will Get the recognition from uh as a Cultural heritage property. So thank you You know, I would agree that the report that was given was really impressive I know it's a lot of hard work and I I loved it. I just thought it was very informative and and Information that that we all can certainly use and certainly planners in the future I thought the report was fabulous a lot of work went into this. I have a question Do they look at back records of the exact when the the first permit for the house was years ago? Even in the 1800s how hard was it to find the information on each house or That area I'll let mary answer that but I I do know that they were on site in doing research as well as a lot of research Online as well. So mary if you're available for that question Sure. Yeah, it was um There was quite a bit of information on the original construction dates of a lot of these properties from the earlier surveys Who had accessed the building permit? So in some cases we didn't have to go back to the primary sources, but In most cases we did. Um, so I actually had A summer intern who spent basically her whole summer at the history and genealogy library Doing that kind of research. She was also doing research in the city With some of the planning archives and in a couple other repositories around so We did try to find as much of that the original primary source information as we could Well, it's very well done. Thank you Thank you I've remembered fennel. Um, I have a quick question. Um in regards to uh potential districts in wale and juliard Um, it doesn't look as though any houses were identified As a district as a possible district moving forward. It was um, you know Pump house in the barn at in wale and then with regards to juliard park They were all parts of the park, but none of the houses that Are adjacent to the park which Would seem to be within that time frame that would be It would be relevant and um, I was just wondering were those houses not considered. Did they not meet criteria or why like How can we have a district for juliard? That's really just the park And with regard to emwale, it's really just that that one particular property And it wouldn't seem to be something that would Be going forward a possible district And I'm just to kind of clarify so you're talking about like from sabastopol the houses along sabastopol to a street And then sonoma the houses on sonoma of the bomb both sides of the park. So that'd be a good question to the consultant Yeah, i'm happy to address that. Um It's very true that most historic districts and potential historic districts are groupings of residences That's definitely the case with the designated preservation districts in santa rosa But the actual the formal definition of a historic district is a cohesive grouping of properties That collectively convey Their historical significance and properties Doesn't have to that that term doesn't have to refer just to buildings. So it's buildings structures objects sites in addition to buildings so um So properties is sort of the generic term, but it does not equate to You know single house on a single parcel So the way to look at the identification of emwale and um juliard is that they both Each of those properties comprises multiple Cohesive elements that collectively convey the significance But if you just pulled one of the elements out of its context It probably wouldn't be eligible on its own if that makes sense. So like a a pump house that's associated within walley gardens is not super likely to be Be potentially eligible, but it does contribute to the significance of the grouping of properties And with juliard park, it's the same sort of idea where We identified which elements are original to the design and and construction of that park Under new deal programs and then which ones were added later. So things like the playground and I think the rose There was also in the community garden. Those are later additions. So those are considered non contributing elements to the district So that kind of information kind of lets you know Which elements are most important to retain if anyone is looking at Say, you know revising the design of that park And as far as the the houses immediately adjacent, I can picture them now. I I think they were all I It's my recollection. They were mostly from the 40s, but I would have to double check Mostly minimal traditional style one-story single family residences That we did look at because I know that their Advertisements for that subdivision when it was developed there were advertisements that Referred to juliard park And I I can't remember now, but I think that One of the subdivision tracks there may have been called juliard. I mean, it's all because it was the same property of that family at one time, but So we did look at that to see whether It would kind of hold together as a cohesive grouping But unfortunately there were a lot of Alterations to individual properties within that area. So I think we did identify one or two You know within a couple of blocks of juliard park as being potentially individually eligible But it didn't seem that there was the physical integrity for A whole district to be identified there Like I think that it would seem to me that that in wally and Juliard would be A great historic resource, but it's not a district You know park doesn't make a district and um And in wally beings a limited resources Is not something that going forward would be you know Something that would seem to be a district Worthy of a district If the local ordinance would preclude, you know identifying resources like that as districts There is definitely flexibility So you can just call something, you know, especially cases like that where they are our audits one single parcel I think you could identify them individually the important thing About them and the reason why we recorded them the way that we did Is so there's a very clear list of which elements of those properties contribute and don't contribute because there's There's some danger in just sort of dropping a pin on a parcel and saying this is a Important property without identifying which parts of it Contribute to the significance So the you know the city can identify it and if they choose to go forward with any kind of designation I would assume that the ordinance allows flexibility for how that's defined Comments or questions from the board Yeah, and I would also like to just Express my gratitude for all the work and the effort and the time. I know It was a struggle getting this report done I seem like it had a pause there for a while and then it got restarted again and I just really appreciate that the the city making this a priority and making it happen making it Um kind of complete the downtown station area plan element and And I too will look at this report as a tremendous resource. In fact, I'm even going to print it all out so I have it in my backpack and and can glance upon it when Things come up So with that, I think we're probably Miss camp Ready to take a vote Thank you chair muser. Do I have board member born? I Board member carney I Board member fennel I Board member climb I Board member marslyn I Board chair muser I And vice chair garret is absent So resolution passes with all eyes And with vice chair garret absent Thank you so much And We'll look forward to seeing where it goes in the future Okay, that brings us to item 8.2, which is wave finding ordinance EIR previously certified by cc rezoning Zoning text amendment z re z 23-009 and Our presenter for that is christian And delaria I say that right christian. Okay. Good to see you again christian It's all yours. Thank you. Good to see you as well I'm just gonna share my screen once I open this Good evening chair muser and members of the board Before you today is the way finding sign ordinance proposed text amendment To the zoning code This is under file number rez 23-009 For the project description. So this is going to be a zoning code update to our way to our sign signage zoning code So this would be creating a new section within that piece of code for way finding specifically and then there are several other Edits to make sure this fits in correctly So things that we're going to be going over are the areas that it's permitted The types of way finding that there will be which is business and public civic Location a number of signage design standards application process the installation sign removal and then non conforming An existing science in addition will be going over the definitions related For the project timeline I did want to state that this kind of was started off because of we had several Different packages coming to toward us about different way finding programs So you might have seen the railroad square ones like started Mid last year and then at the end of last year we got the downtown way finding programs Um around this time we started the public survey to really understand how the city felt about Mainly the business way finding but also way finding signage standards in general And that was done in october and november And then this is the timeline going forward For the various boards and commissions and then council I'm going over now are the definitions. So there's two different types of way finding signage That would be the business way finding and then the public civic amenity way finding And then we also wanted to define sign plaque for the individual signs on the in the package And then for the sign post which is holding all the signs together Um for permitted areas we're currently looking at downtown station area and the north station area These two areas were mainly chosen because one north station area has a specific plan That's specifically called out for way finding signage programs And then downtown station area as well had a few Standards in its own specific plan as well as the Existing way finding programs that we now have at this point Um This is also going over The types of business identification and public civic amenities. So like in railroad square that one has mainly just Businesses located on it. It tells you where to go and how to find them and then here in the Courthouse square area, you'll be seeing directions towards like maybe you can go to city hall Or you'll see an event in the uh courthouse square area um, so for How we would limit the business type of way finding that would be six individual signs per per business Each sign face would count as one. So if it's double-sided that would be two signs um, and then we also have additional information for dimensions and then Regarding for the signs itself and then also for the signposts for uh locations Um, this is for how we might have standards for different areas So we have general standards and then we have standards for things within the public right away Which would be like the sidewalk and then there's places within the the private property that would have its own additional standards as well These are different standards from different areas of Review from the city and then other different state and federal regulations that would require additional standards Um going over now is the public and civic way finding sign standards Um, this would be uh requiring iconography and directional signs So iconography would be maybe like a picture of what you might think a park would look like Just to say symbolize like where you're going So maybe some type of building structure that would look like city hall would direct you towards that way Um, or maybe like a p for parking Some of the things like that And then currently we would be requiring some of this thing which should be in english and spanish and then the font size Would be 36 inches and then we would be prohibiting flashing and digital signs We're also requiring time travel distance within the ground floor overlay. I will go over what that means in a little bit So right here would be a map of what is the active ground floor overlay In the downtown station area specific plan. This was specifically created to Make specific areas in the city have more active walking areas and walkability If you see this kind of like peppermint pattern, that is the areas of the downtown station area That is the active ground floor So these actually do some of these areas include the railroad square way finding signage and the downtown signage as well Next is the business way finding The standards are pretty similar. Um, as I said before business way finding does have restrictions on the number of signs they can do And I also wanted to mention that every business way finding package is required to have one public and civic amenity Sign as well. So it's not just business signs Um, the application process, um, they would all be submitting for a sign program If it's a brand new way finding program and then if there are any edits to adding additional signs later on in the future They would be doing a sign permit or if they want to update their sign program. They would submit for another edit to that And then for installation and removal These are approved for a period of two years There's a replacement signs would be need to be installed Pause part of the way finding program or require approval of the permit And then any signs that are closed would need to be removed promptly with of the close of business Um, here are two examples of the way finding that we currently have in the city You can see on the left there's a current Public and civic style and then on the right is the more business style in railroad square Right now asking from all of you is specific feedback So this would be about sign post materials and design And then color uniformity for business signs or color legend depending on the use type So maybe you want specific colors if it's trying to tell someone to go to a park Or to tell someone to go to the transit mall Maybe you want it to be like a green or kind of a blue color And then maybe if you wanted to expand the travel time or distance inclusion Outside of the ground floor overlay So that would be for every sign they might want to indicate the walk time distance to a specific location Um, and then it's recommended by the planning and economic development department that the cultural heritage board Provide comments and recommendations to staff about the proposed way of finding sign standards Um, and my information is listed here. Thank you Okay. Thank you, mr. Candelaria um Questions for mr. Candelaria Uh, maybe I'll start it off I'm a babe in the woods when it comes to this signage and I'm trying to I've noticed the new signs that are Both downtown and also and railroad square How did those come into existence? How did how did that those happen? Yeah, I can elaborate on that for downtown We did have a specific provision that allowed for governments or civic style wayfinding packages so that one was how it came through the city but for railroad square that was more of a Partnership with that district and we worked with them as a city to do a temporary use permit to last for one year So that kind of sparked the wayfinding ordinance process to make sure they we would have standards in place for them to Apply as an actual project and for it to be a permanent. So right now it is temporary Okay, so who typically then applies for a way signing our way finding Sign, uh, you know in in either case Commercial or yeah These two areas have their own specific action groups So there is like a group of business owners and property owners that work to make sure they have like a cohesive field to an area and They came together as wanting to do this type of Type of visual package to the areas and provide advertisement or provide like Bringing people downtown to show people areas to go So it really just depends on how these places want to come together and apply for something like this Can there be different styles in a in an area like in railroad square? The signs that are there now can another group come in and put up a one with a completely different style In these areas they could if they're if they're a different part of the area and they would want also Want to work with the existing ones. Um, it's not really limiting at this time We could add provisions if necessary to restrict certain new signage in the areas that are already listed as signed programs And then how would the outcome of the input that you're getting from the various boards affect what's already has been done out there at the signage Um specifically for the ones here in the downtown area that are public and civic those ones We have a provision listed in the proposed amendment Which would list them as legal non conforming so that means they could Generally operate as is and then they're adding anything new onto the signage They would need to follow the new standards that we're going to be proposing And then for uh railroad square We're currently working with them to see which things need to be updated in order for them to comply with the Standards that are in place because they're currently not a full Permitted use since it's a temporary use permit Probably the thing that stood out to me the most in the railroad square was It's a historic railroad square with this contemporary signage and I kind of shrugged it off so well. It's I it's in the It's like the parking signs. It's like the other signs that are in the easement area But uh, it just seemed like it would be nice if it complemented kind of the historic nature of of the neighborhood I can come out on that as well if you wanted to do any type of recommendation related to that you could list any Recommendation related to following within the historic districts that they're implemented in since these are pretty large areas that they're allowed in so That might be a good way to go Is the theory on this with having these wayfinder signs that it's going to stop kind of the wild west of Signs that is currently kind of going on in the city where we've got flags flying and You know different a frame signs and stuff is is this Like a continuity thing so that we can kind of You know have The sidewalks back and Not get hit with the flag in the face Yeah, we don't have like a huge approach in trying to like really limit those. They are prohibited signs Those a frame signs But this would hopefully reduce any something those like various sign types and help contribute to a real nice character feel of the areas that they're placed in What is your time frame on? Businesses especially in railroad square to to Bring it all together so it you don't have these things flying away and of a you know that if it's going to be a Specific design element to your signs. How will you get everyone on track with that? So if you're talking about each sign as part of railroad square They're all submitted together. They were submitted together as a package. So Uh, I was able to review about 40 business signs that were Submitted at the same time And then future signs that wanted to be added They would get their own sign per man. We would that would be the way we would make sure they follow all of the specific standards in the future What are the rules about these businesses having the clam shells outside of their door or any other big posters? They have there are there any You know rules about that Um for the a frame sandwich style board as those ones are prohibited by the city code So those aren't generally allowed, but we are a complaint based city So that means people would need to submit a code complaint to the city in order for that to be resolved For the other ones. I'm not too sure which ones you're ever referring to so I can't really answer sorry restaurants Especially they have a lot of those clam shells in front We have we have a sign ordinance and as christian pointed out that the the clam shell or the the a frame signs those are prohibited signs and But we're also complaint driven and code enforcement's a very busy department right now. So Yeah, that's it's unfortunate I think that a lot of people don't realize that they They can't use those and it's an inexpensive way of getting their menu out to passers-by, but I think you touched on this a little bit christian But the number of signs in the ordinance has written says there's no maximum number of signs So these could be potentially outside every business or how does that work? Yeah, we currently aren't limiting the number of sign posts Or the location of them, but we would be working with them Just to make sure they're not so close with one at what close to each other It just it would kind of defeat the purpose of really the feel It seems to me like that you would want to include some sort of limiting language to permit You know, yeah, so many per block or so You know ends of the block or it seems to me like if these things were down the whole street It would make our town look ridiculous Just an aesthetic it would be strange. Yeah but How does a business get their business on the sign or how does Our bank gardens historic Gardens is this way. How does that get get on the signpost? Yeah, so right now in the city. We do have the sign programs a lot of places So different locations will work with The operators that they're at so maybe Like within the mall they'll have their own sign program or you would want to follow those specific standards and work with them And then then you would be Going for your sign permit with the city if you want to be added So it's really getting approval from the district and then working with The city for the specific standards to make sure you follow them Also, uh, the one here that's showing In a railroad square the businesses would pay for that metal post where all those Uh signs are put on right that's all paid for by the businesses I'm not too sure how they're handling the cost of the sign the signpost. I just I'm a little aware of how I think the businesses are paying for their own of individual signs, but I don't know about the actual post themselves I have to say I do like the way that that And maybe it's just the way this photo is taken the way it's behind a post behind an existing signpost It kind of makes it less Bulky, you know, I mean it kind of hides the the post kind of is hidden behind another post. I like that That working theory of of making it You know that the important information is is right there and out front for everybody, but the post itself is somewhat You know hidden behind The either lamp post or whatever it is I think that would be a nice way to Set them up and make them less bulky looking and less More You're looking for the word minimalist. Thank you. Welcome appreciate it Yeah, it's funny, but and then I look at that and I say why are they putting that contemporary thing on that nice historic light pole You know, and I know that The cultural heritage board has an opportunity to review signage for commercial buildings just for their buildings themselves correct, mrs. Murray and I'm just wondering if within the Historic neighborhoods If there was Boy, and I'm not one to add layers But if there was a way that that a concept could come into us or something just for our review I guess my my main interest is if the railroad historic neighborhood And that group is kind of happy with the design then I'm probably going to be happy with the design, but if Stuff is going up that Really doesn't contribute to the historic nature Of the neighborhood It'd be nice if we had an opportunity to maybe make comment on it Is it just the railroad square district that you're interested in or would it be any Any preservation district? I'm just trying to think, you know, there are other Preservation districts that may want to point out some landmarks. I can't think of anything offhand, but I'm guessing there is something out there I was just going by the map that had kind of the railroad tracks of where the signage was typically going to go. I think The railroad square was the only one that was the only historic district involved the downtown But but I would think again I think the downtown if there's a business association or something at Just if their involvement if so, there could be more buy-in on the design I did want to go back to the signpost locations Um, I do know that these are reviewed by engineering and then also traffic and transit So there are some limitations of where they can be placed such as They would might need to be reviewed if they can be placed on traffic They can't be on traffic lights and then they might not be able to be on specific light poles and they might have to put their own Pulse up. So it's just Kind of how it happens during the review process of where they're placed as well I have another just small comment which is that it seems to be there's a separation between a public civic Amenity wayfinding and the business wayfinding to me. It seems like it would Look better if they were integrated together like a business sign was required to have a couple of A public amenity wayfinding signs on you know smart train this way bathrooms that way or whatever Yeah, we're proposing that each wayfinding sign in the business one has to have at least one public civic wayfinding Um, and that would be double-sided if they are double-sided wayfinding programs I think that's a good idea because we are the number one Wide destination in the whole united states Sonoma county. We beat Napa. So we get a lot of tourists here Sometimes they'll You know, you bump into one. They go. Do you know where railroad square is or do you tell us where the downtown is? So I think that is a good idea to implement that Any more comments Last one for me, but I I agree with with um chair mausers Common in the history and in railroad district the sign having some sort of Historic limitations. I don't really know how to do that though, you know limiting the colors Maybe to something basic. I don't know just to make it not look so out of place, but um Or maybe something on top of the sign that that designates it as within the district. I don't know So my comment is are you objecting to the the the artwork or the logo for each individual or or company? Or are you objecting to the stand that it's sitting on and that they're You know, it's hard to say. I think the businesses have to identify themselves As they identify themselves, and I think maybe more the stand I think the stand is something that could be redesigned to make it look a little more appropriate to the area So you're thinking of some ornamentation on the top or Well, it's very contemporary So I would think the whole thing needs to be redesigned to make it look a little bit more appropriate to the area But I think identifying the companies is important to the company to have their logo there And to have that uniformed. I'm not certain that identity is what they're looking for She get a graphic designer out here to take a look and You're thinking like old lamppost kind of look something like that Sure, just something again. This is so contemporary anything it would be a little bit more Fitting of the the railroad district. I think I do like this idea though. I like the signage As long as it's not in every corner or every 10 feet I'm hoping that some of the other boards that you go with with their preview They're going to be better at giving you things like colors and And symbology and and that type of thing. I think our board is it's just mostly concerned that the the whole design Fits the historic neighborhood and and And that's you know, and how you how you get there I guess we're all kind of struggling not sure how you get there, but that's probably What we'd like to see is is uh, you know a process that that Instead of just mail ordering, you know the signage that some consideration goes into Where it's going it's going in a historic neighborhood and so Any last comments Well, I I don't feel like we gave you a whole lot, but hopefully we gave you some some feedback that you can use and Appreciate you coming and asking us Yeah, I definitely got um quite a few things that would be great to add on Do would you like me to list what I've written? Just so you all know Does that work? Yeah, that'd be great. Okay So what I have first is making sure it falls within the historic character of the historic district So that may be color design some type of ornamentation on top of the signpost And then limiting the signpost distances or creating some type of standard for distance between signposts I'm trying to hide signposts within the environment for a minimalist look Um concept does concept review with for anything within the preservation districts And then um wanting to have the public or civic Sign on wait business wayfinding packages and then that the logos Do not need to be following the historic standards or uniform as much I think it captured everything pretty well Well, thank you very much And uh let's anyway has anything final to say Oh I need to open Public comment, but you can go ahead and open and close it if you'd like Okay, and we will close public comment Okay with that We will call for adjournment. Thank you all