 Hello and welcome to the network security podcast, episode 250 for August 6, 2011. We are coming to you sort of live from DEF CON on Saturday night. And this is the culmination of a long time of podcasting. We have a number of podcasters who are in the audience and we want to thank them for coming, for showing their support. We have a lot of people who are out there who have been listening to podcast for as long as we have been stupid enough to record them. We have been stupid enough to listen to them for a quite a long time. And this has been a very long road and very interesting. About five years ago, one day- You sound so depressed. This has been a very long road. No, that's drunk, not depressed. Okay. I would like to start off today as always by introducing my co-host. First of all, Rich Mogul. Thanks, Murray. You're just saying that because I took my pants off in my last panel. I wasn't going to mention you're just robbing it all. Not all of my pants, just the outer layer. And I really, really don't want to talk about other people who took their clothes off in your last panel, either. No, no. Yeah. I don't want to put the dollar. Yeah, ooh, the dollar. There's a reason why when the donations for the EFF were handed off, they were handed off with a case of hand sanitizer. Now that Rich has said hello, I'd like to introduce my other co-host, Zach Lanier. How are you doing today, Zach? Wow, that was quite the applause. And Rich, they just, they don't really like you, evidently. I'm okay. I have a cool new haircut, courtesy of my co-workers who refeed me first. And then I just woke up. I woke up with this hair, I promise. Does your girlfriend like it? She approves. As long as she approves, I don't care what the rest of these people say. Well, you know, I started this podcast about five years ago, as I was saying. And it started one day because I'd listened to a bunch of other people talk about what interested them. I'd heard people talk about the things that were going on in their lives that had nothing to do with security. And then I heard this thing called security now. And I realized, you know, I could probably talk more directly to the people who were interested in security than they could. And even if they didn't, if I mean, I would get some feedback on how I could improve my own security career. Now that went on for a couple of years. And then one day I went, you know, I'm really getting burnt out on this. And at that point, I turned to a friend of mine who had just left Gartner and said, you know, Rich, you really can talk, you talk a lot. In fact, sometimes we have a hard time stopping you from talking. And would you come on the show with me and talk for a little while each week? Where we do this half hour, I do this half hour thing, I think it would be a lot better to have you talk to me and us bounce ideas off of each other rather than just me talking. And Rich said, something. What were you going to say, Rich? No, no, no, we were just trying to figure out why the hell we agreed to do this. You know, I've been trying to figure that out. Four years ago in my case. I was going to say, I've been trying to figure that out for four years. And then a couple of years ago, we had a ticket to give away to DEF CON and to Black Hat and we said, hey, would one of our listeners like to come and do this and do some podcast, do some interviews from DEF CON and Black Hat. And this guy named Zach Lanier just kind of said, I'll do it. And ever since then, Zach, you've been a valuable member of the podcast. I don't know if I would say valuable. No, I was about to not be employed. So I figured, hey, what better time than now to join network security podcast? Just in time to be a professional podcaster, move back in with your parents after losing your job? Yeah. Well, I mean, I figured this failed. I can just go into like be a social media strategist or something. And you know, four and five years ago, there weren't a lot of podcasts out there. There weren't a lot of people who were willing to put their voice out there. But over the time, it has changed considerably. It's no longer just a few people. There are a ton of podcasts out there. There are some very good security podcasts. In fact, there are some that I will unashamedly say are much better than anything we do. And hopefully tonight, we'll take a couple minutes to get some of those people up on stage and talk to you. Who should we start with? Who's here? Well, only one of them seems to be here right now. So and he's sitting in the front row. And I know I know you want to play with your phone more. And it was important. So come on up. We would like to invite up to the table. Chris John Riley. So Chris, which podcast do you do again? I'm not really sure, to be honest. I think it's called your trash. So where can people find your trash? On the interwebs? Just search for bad European security podcasts. We'll be the first one on the list. You know, Chris is a great example of one of the best things about being a security podcaster is that over the last five years, I've made some great friends and Chris is one of them. And you know, there's not a lot of people who you can you can turn to and know you're going to get support. Chris is one of them. Really? So Chris being from the euro trash podcast, we're finding that it seems that a lot of you know, well second anonymous being arrested is happening over here. Do you have any personal opinions on those particular douchebags? I mean people. Why are you calling Chris a douchebag? I didn't do it. It wasn't me and you can't prove anything. Yeah, I guess we just have the angriest hackers. I don't know. It's just the way things are. I mean, it's always been a European thing, political activism and hacktivism has always been a big thing in Europe. And they just look at CCC, for example. It's just seems to be the way things are in Europe right now. So I mean, I use I made a disparaging statement there and it was on purpose because I'm actually a firm believer in activism, hacktivism as well and other kinds of social action when called for. But I'm getting the impression these are people that are just kind of messing around and breaking into things to break into things and using potential causes as excuses for activities they would probably engage in anyway. What do you think? Or am I just the douchebag? No, I want to mean people just do it for fun. I mean, you get bored late one night. You've been drinking too much. You hack a website. Why not say you're anonymous and put the information out there. I mean. I mean, the name is sort of telling Rich Lowell's sick. I thought it was Louise Boat. Actually, Chris, you bring up a good point. I don't know if anybody's seen one of these and what I'm holding up is this kind of pinkish orange card. And you know somebody stopped me last night and out of the blue when I was having dinner with my family and said, are you on the internet? Okay, this is Defconn. I avoid the internet at all cost. Where else would I get my porn? Other places. And my wife and kids are in the audience places. So they handed me this little thing after saying, are you on the internet? Well, no, not here, but I work for Acomi and we pretty much are the internet. So yes, I guess you could say I am. And you know, it says Defconn 19. It has a picture of the Lowell's sick guy or the anonymous guy. And it says call this number at 2,300 hours. Now, what would you guys think if you receive something like this? Does the word trap? Does the word, oh, this is going to be weird. Come to mind at all. Let's call it right now. Actually, the number is, and you might want to write this down because wait, wait, wait, let me get my phone app up. You guys can call it at 2,300 too because quite frankly, I think it's a trap, but if we can DOS them or DDOS them, I think it would be kind of funny. So the number is 1-402-672-8571. Oh, my God, that's my mobile number. I was going to say, I heard from... Should we tell them they're live on the network security podcast? All right, well, that was pathetic. I heard for pissing off Lowell's sick network security podcast got owned tomorrow. Now they have my cell phone number, so I just imponed. There's a guy in the front row with his laptop out already. Where were we going with that? You were the one talking, man. We weren't going anywhere. We were following. Okay, I just wanted to get the number out there so somebody can figure out what that's supposed to be and what party it's supposed to be or if it really is a trap. So one of the other interesting things, so I got a call. I ended up doing a press interview thing the other day about the NSA and other government agencies recruiting at DEF CON. And, you know, it kind of seems strange to me that all of a sudden this would be in the news. How many people here have been to DEF CON before? How many people here have seen Feds recruiting at DEF CON before? Yeah, I mean, it's been going on for quite a long time. I mean, obviously. I see a smile, Zach. You got the Zach smirk. We record over Skype and not on video. How would you know what the smirk looks like? You just hear it. Do you hear it? You hear it over the internet? The green light by your camera, it means we're watching. That's because I let you watch. We like to watch. Ouch. That usually comes. Yeah, so I thought I'd get the opinions here. You know, it's kind of interesting because there's these websites now, so this has happened within the last week or so. Somebody did a big blog post on, what was it? Don't sell out to the NSA? Does anybody remember that one? I don't read. Okay, well, great. It's going to be a really short show. Yeah, there was apparently some big thing in the news about the anti-NSA versus the NSA thing going here on DEF CON. I thought I'd kick it over to these guys. Any opinions on that? Are you a sell out if you actually go trying to get employed to do security and you just happen to also enjoy going to DEF CON? If they want to recruit my kids, I don't care. Oh, come on. Please say something. Banana hammock? I don't know. Banana. Yes. That's the answer. I mean, it's not like this hasn't been going on for years anyway. And since when has the news been important? I mean, face it. I've seen American news, trust me. Oh, yeah. So it's not valid for Murdoch. News of the world. Yeah. So Chris, actually to get you to get you to get you talking about the NETSEC podcast, why did you start the euro trash podcast? What was the impetus for that? I listened to the first episode of the NETSEC podcast and thought, wow, I'm sure we could do this too. I don't know. It seemed like a good thing to be doing. Everyone was podcasting and I just thought I could be internet famous if I do this. Uh-oh. So, yay, I'm internet famous. For those who are listening to this after the fact, Paul and Larry just walked in the room and are launching hundreds of, well, not shmoo balls, but core security balls. They're launching Paul balls. All throughout the room. People who want to play with Paul's balls. Yeah. Everyone wants to play with Paul's balls. Who hasn't wanted to take one of Paul's balls to the face? So now we will have a moment of chaos while Paul throws his balls all around the world. Is this like a competitive thing? Like you just come in and ruin our podcast? Because, like, yeah, you can't make it suck more candy, Zach. I mean. And now for a commercial break. By the way, Spawn, do not throw all those balls up here. By Spawn he means his children who are in the audience. You are the only two I have control over. All right, Paul, Larry, stop with the balls. Get up, come get up here, Paul, Larry. Just protect the alcohol. Just so everybody knows, in the last two years we've done a podcasters meetup and for whatever reason that just didn't get organized this year. But we kind of wanted to commemorate the episode 250 of the podcast and invite as many of the podcasters that we know up as possible. I just have one question. Do you have a bottle opener? No, but I know somebody who does. I'm better now. So back to you, Chris, before somebody throws a ball at you, why did you get involved in podcasting? I don't know. This seemed like a good thing of a time. There wasn't a whole lot of coverage in Europe. So what has been the single biggest event in your podcasting career so far? Well, that would be joining you on the Netsake podcast episode 250. Do I get paid now? No. $5, $5, $5, $5. $10. People, what about not the beer? Do you not understand? If they can get it, they can get it. I don't know. Okay. So Paul and Larry, now that you've joined us. Okay, for those that don't know, this is Paul and Larry from the Paul.com security podcast. Paul and Larry. That's nice. Paul likes taking balls to the face. Paul got a face shot in Vegas. Oh, sorry. You brought your family here. For those that don't know, I think Paul and Larry got started just before Marty did. They were the first one. They were the first real security podcast, as opposed to Security Now, which is not really a security podcast. They started about three or four days before I did, I think. Well, actually, you guys recorded several weeks before I did, but didn't publish until weeks later. We're still working on that actually. We had to figure out how to do a podcast, like how to publish it. You're still figuring it out. I've heard the editing quality that you guys have. That's how lame we are. It took us five weeks to learn how to use audacity. So what made you guys decide to start podcasting? Well, for me, I gave a regular presentation to a university that I worked for, unlike the latest computer security news and stuff. So for whatever reason that ended, and my co-worker, who was referenced on the show as Duksta, said you should do a podcast. And then we did. Heads. So that's how we got started. Yeah, so what it was in the beginning was just a bunch of security guys getting together at a conference or, you know, on a Friday night and having beers and talking about, hey, dude, you hear about XYZ and, well, maybe we should record this. Maybe someone else would want to listen to this. And sure enough, 250 something episodes later people are still listening. What number are you guys on? I don't know. 54 is coming up. Maybe? So what's the biggest event that's happened to you because of podcasting? I don't know. Other than your job. That's the rule on paul.com. You either have to work for a sponsor and then they become a sponsor. If you're on the show, go work for someone who is a sponsor. So we're pretty nice. The pause is your role. Jericho's got some great accuracy over there. What are you even practicing at home? You throw squirrels in your backyard or something? Yeah, but he hasn't managed to hit me yet. Oh, I see. He's not throwing these kinds of balls at them though. But the faces are all cut out with a hole writer on the mouth. What? That's Jericho from attrition.org and you can tell he loves us. So it's tough to say like one particular instance, but you know, certainly I think the marathon we did for Hackers for Charity, like that was really cool, like to use our listeners and our podcast as a vehicle for a good cause that probably sticks out in my mind. It's gotten you a lot of attention. It's gotten you to places you couldn't go otherwise. I mean, it's been a good thing hasn't. And that was another dodge. People actually wanted my autograph. Why? That's the weirdest thing about being a podcaster. You go, you guys actually listen week after week. Right. It's amazing. I actually signed an autograph for a 16 year old and a 13 year old to both listen. And then I felt really bad for corrupting the youth of America. As you should. Then he realized it was the DEF CON social engineering contest. Where's I going with that? I don't know. You can tell by the way that we do a lot of editing after the fact normally. Some of these things that we're going hum. What should we say next is actually something that happens quite a bit in the live podcast. For listeners, somebody just took the entire box of about 700 balls. I lost my balls. Thanks for finding them. And putting your hands all over them. So this is, yeah, antagonizing them. That's going to help us. Alright. So one of the things we do on the podcast is always pick up new stories and those sorts of things. So instead, we've got you guys here in the audience. Let's get a little bit participatory. Somebody throw out a topic you'd like us to talk about and for you yourself to talk about. Go. Don't say balls. Goat porn. Whoa, wait, don't leave that up there. All right, who's got a topic other than balls or go porn? Someone someone in the audience said APT to try and be to try and be funny and fail. How about what? My coworkers are hitting me with balls. Defcon. Who got the balls anyway? You know what? Yeah, so that's a good one. So we're on the latent to the basically the third day or the second full day of Defcon. What have you guys seen so far that you liked? Fail panels. Fail panel. Anybody at the fail panel? That was a nice read. How the hell is that coming from behind my head? Yeah, we made $800 for the EFF by you guys buying waffles. So beer waffles. Let's be clear. And if you want to put more money up here, blue waffles. Yeah. Okay, I lost that one. So I'm going to cut it over to these guys. Paul Larry. Go go dancers at the I bar. Yeah, nothing reminds me more about the importance of my job as a parent of two daughters than coming to Vegas. What do I use that? What stood out for you so far with Defcon? This. No, no, seriously. Seriously, this is the only thing I've really gone to. No, I like the venue. We've are somebody said, you know, kind of is weird that they would pick a hotel that they've already outgrown. So I don't really know where to go where they could go from here. But, you know, it's good. It's good venue. I watched a couple talks on television. That's that's really the extent of my Defcon experience so far. So this is becoming informative. Chris. Oh, this is going to be really informative. I didn't even know there were talks at Defcon. I thought it was just like a big drink up thing where everyone gets together. Oh, you guys are really good shots. It's not good. This is turning into the Shmucon podcast is meet up all over again. I like it's like watching a tennis match. This is getting all right. So I took I took a soccer ball to the base yesterday. I would like to not have that happen again. So, you know, let's we have a really important thing to play toward the end. And if we don't get to that, yeah, we'll let the balls go. You can throw schmoo ball. I'm sorry. Core impact impact balls. You know, when that happens. So what was that? Yes, poor impact balls. That is what I said. Okay, so we got one more podcaster to bring up. Mr. Joseph Sekoli. Now, one of the one of the sincerest forms of flattery is imitation. And nobody imitates the network security podcast more than southern fried podcast. He didn't tell you. He's on Paul.com now. Didn't you see Twitter? Yeah, I know that he was on Paul.com now. Like I've been hanging out with them all weekend. You were also on the network security podcast for a little while as we traded you for for Zach. There's an audience member question. We have a question from the audience. Question from the audience. That's not going to go well. Not Jericho. Nobody wants to hear from Jericho. And Jericho says if every podcast he got to throw stuff at us, he'd listen more. I thought exotic liability was all about people getting hit in the face with balls. So. Who else is here? Where's Jaded? Is Jaded security? You're Jaded security? Oh, you're the co-host. Where is he? Is your other half? Come up here and take some balls in the face. I thought he was thrown out of the club. Is there more beer down there? Yeah, we brought some, but I think Brian's great. Good. You have a bottle opener? Come on up for a second, guys. Just tell us, just give us a quick second and tell us why you got into podcasting, as opposed to just security, but why did you start podcasting? We listened to Paul. Wait, you listened to Paul and you still got into podcasting? We didn't want to be Paul. On the mic, we're recording. You listened and then didn't want to be us? Yeah, we listened to like two episodes. You know this, man. I told you. So we wanted to be, we're, we're, so we're a daily podcast. So we do it Monday through Friday. We've managed to piss off Jericho and just about everybody else by having Legap on. Where's Chris? Well, speaking of Mr. Chris Evans, we'll have, have some words from him later. You mean Greg Evans? Gregory Evans, sorry. Chris Evans is that actor, that really dreamy one. World's number one hacker, Greg Evans. Did you hear? Greg Evans won an award today. What for? He won Charlotte end of the year. Well, it's just too bad. We didn't know that in time to include that in the questions for the interview. We're going to be playing in a few moments here. What is, is that Mr. Evans award? Okay, so the, the award for Charlotte of the year is in Jericho's hands, which is really, really disturbing. But it will be going on eBay and the proceeds will be going to a charity of his choice. So keep an eye out on that from on attrition.org and I'm on eBay. It's OSF or EFF. And by the way, if you guys want to leave any money up here for EFF, we will make sure it gets to us, gets to them, I mean. Freudian slip. We will not use it to buy beer, I promise. So you guys were saying about why you got in security because you thought you could do it better than Paul.com. No, that's a joke dude. So it was just a bunch of guys that were on calls driving in Atlanta and the commute is like two fucking hours. So that's to go three blocks. Yeah, so we had, yeah, yeah, literally. So essentially what we were doing was just kind of talking back and forth and saying, hey, did you read this story? Did you see that? What did you think about that? And we made the mistake of recording it. And it made the mistake of saying that it's a daily podcast. Paul lost his balls. Paul's balls. Paul has been scattered all over the place. There's a reason why Schmoocon is kept to Schmoocon. You don't, using Rick, protect your laptop or protect his face. One of the two stand in front of him. I don't need his ass on my face. So Rich, we have some recording we'd like you to hear of an interview. This is similar to an interview you guys have done. We only have a few minutes for it, but we would like to hear your guys's how to put it. Reaction to some of the things that Mr. Gregory Evans has to say. Now, you know, we had literally, we had a half an hour to talk to Mr. Evans a couple weeks ago. And in that half an hour, we got to ask three questions. Three, three questions. Because we found out that when you ask him a question, unless you are willing to interrupt him in the middle of a tirade, you're going to keep hearing his answers again and again. And by the way, the panel is required. Hello, Mr. Evans. This is Martin McKay from the Network Security podcast. Hey, how are you? I'm doing fine. I wanted to let you know I've got my co-host Rich Mogul and Zach Lanier on the phone with me. Okay. Hello, everyone. We're playing this one hour podcast. No, this is usually a half an hour podcast, and we're probably only going to do about a 15 to 20 minute interview. Okay. And what are we going over again? Basically, we wanted to talk about you and your company, because you're obviously listed as the world's number one hacker. One reporter turns around, he had the conversation, took it and ran it, even with the book. So I tell that to everybody before I do. Now, remember, this is an individual who wrote a book, How to Become the World's Number One Hacker. So far, I haven't had to hear. Oh, okay. I thought of, you know, control network. So I got people who worked for me full time that do all of that. But no, I am so far from world's number one hacker. So, but with that being said, we can go ahead and start this if you like. Yeah, and if it's okay, we might just ask you about that anyway. Yeah, I'm going to fast forward a little bit. Yeah, I'm just more of the same anyway. So some of you guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans and Rich and Zach. And we're here. You guys have also interviewed Mr. Evans. Did you get a chance to hear that? What's that? Did you get a chance to hear an interview? I watched, I listened to part of it, especially the end where everybody started laughing the moment he disconnected. We're here today talking to Gregory Evans, who is the CEO of Lagat Security International. How are you doing today, Mr. Evans? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. So Mr. Evans, let's let's start with a little bit of your background. I mean, you were convicted of hacking in the 90s. And how has that led you to a security career and how has that shaped your views of security? Well, let's back up. The first time I got in trouble was in the 10th grade. And my parents had to pay back $30,000 to AT&T then in order to keep me out of jail. We used the school's computers and we were doing using school computers to make free phone calls and having it built to a third party number. And a friend of mine who was a programmer and we were only we were working on cold ball at the time. So that tells you how long ago this was in the 80s. He was a software writer and he wrote it so it would randomly, you know, built to a third party company. So even Harry's disavowing having done the actual act. What? You can hear he's disavowing having done the actual act. Over and over which was the Taco Bell Corporation. So at the end of the month, Taco Bell Corporation received a receipt. Not Taco Bell, the Taco Bell Corporation. $100,000 home bill. So and they traced it back to myself and my cooking spirit would say, and this was in the 10th grade. And that's where I got in trouble. And I had to leave school and I ended up going because my parents were separated. And I left Maryland and went to Germany. And I lived in Germany. And that's where I learned to hack some more when I got hooked up with the guys at the Chaos Club. I don't know if you're familiar with them. The Chaos Club, by the way, they're not not to be confused with Chaos Computer Club, but the Chaos Club. They're lesser known guys out of Belgium, not like Germany. Yeah, we've heard of them and even dealt with a few of those people before. Okay, well, they were the first original hacking group. See, it's funny because most of the people when I was doing hacking, I was told years ago is that one thing you don't do is go around bragging about your hacks because what you're doing is against the law. See, that's the difference between a lot of hackers to this day. There's a lot of hackers out there that can out hack me all day long because I don't even hack me more. I'm a businessman. So, but what ends up happening is that they'll go out and commit a great hack. And then they will go out on Twitter, Facebook, or one of the chat rooms, IRC, and they will brag about, Hey, I have why do that? Why bring attention to yourself? It's just like a person who goes out and commits a crime. Who robs the bank and then goes out and drags all his friends. I just robbed the bank and thinking that nobody's going to know that it was used. The only way two people can keep a secret, Benjamin Franklin said, this is one of them did. So in this particular case for years, I was always told, never go out and brag about it. Are you in it for the money or doing it for the bank? And all the way up to the time I was hacking. And when I was hacking, there was different ways of doing exploits. I mean, one, you can do social engineering. One, with my very first hack, we were using war dialers and we were calling every number in our company to get access to the modem. Two, when we had access to AT&T, MCI, Sprint and WorldCon, and we were setting up toll-free numbers for a third party telephone company, we just had most of the people inside the company on payroll. Now, when we started hacking, most of the people who go out and say, well, he's not hacking, he's not doing this. Some of them wanted to warn them. I was interrupting him. I was saying to see every dude who was going out and talking stuff. 19 years. I've been in business for 20. You'll barely hear us at all in this. So, I mean, you weren't even around to even say what you did if you didn't. So most people didn't even know my name because I didn't hear if I made a name as a hacker or not. All right, you guys want me to continue with this or fast forward to the really good spark? Okay, hold on. All right, so this is going to be the last just three minutes of the interview. It's awesome. So the other parts were what? I can't. The software got it running right now. So, here we go. Max sucks. Yeah, I just wanted to talk to you. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Max sucks. Yeah, I just wanted to interrupt for a second because, you know, in part. So the question I'm asking right now is what you're trying to say, but you brought a bunch of interesting shoes in and wanted to tell you know, we're very interested in it. What you can get here? I mean, talk about a lot of the issues related to the industry, the people in the industry as well as how security is perceived by, you know, just average folks over a barred circumstance and no one is perceived by, you know, just average folks over a barred some noble, you know, what's the end of goal here? Is it, you know, what do you personally hope to do with your involvement with the industry? Is it just to build a business? Is it to go out there and actually help people become more secure? You know, for you, what would be the end game? Actually, for the couple things, one, I want to change the game because right now, everybody out there has this idea in their head that Hollywood has put out there that all computer nerds, all computer hackers are. So just in case you missed that while balls are being thrown at us, Gregory Evans wants to change the game. So for those computer nerds, he wants to change the game. He wants not not making things more secure, just change the game. So whatever the game means. So that little kid with coke bottle glasses with the tape in the middle, who's in his mom's face, they're playing on the computer, never got the girl, never got pictures of the basketball team, and that's not true. Computer hackers carry just as much power as anybody else in the world and can be just as dangerous as anybody else in the world. Actually, when they have bodyguards of guns. I was speaking to someone about how dangerous hackers are compared to L-type. Wait, you're going to miss the Al-Qaeda reference. Al-Qaeda, you know who your enemy is. You've got people in the field. You can see them, they can see you, you can shoot at them, they can shoot back. When it comes to computer hacking, there's no faces like the boogeyman. And you have to find out. You know a crime has been committed, but how do you catch them? So my hope in game is is to bring more light to like, well, computer hacking is here. It's here to stay. And you guys, all you guys who went around and picked on those computer nerds in high school, they'll need guys to have power. So now, not just hackers, but just computer people, period. So I want to turn around and change the whole game and bring more knowledge to everything that's happening out there in addition to that, make it more of almost like a white stuff. When some of my friends who are entertainers, such as Russell Simpson. So just in case you missed that, what he's referring to is he has a store where he sells swag, effectively swag that you can wear to talk about how awesome of a hacker you are. Including, you know, some of them feature the faces of some of the people in the audience. But wait, Zach, Zach, didn't he say that there were plenty of people who could out hack him? Well, no, the thing is, it's wrong to go and talk about how awesome of a hacker you are unless you're buying a shirt from him that talks about how awesome of a hacker you are. Oh, that makes perfect sense. Well, and he's never been to DEF CON, has he? I think we've given us ass hat too much floor space already. But don't you want to hear the part where he's hanging with Russell Simmons and Puffy? It comes up in just like, within the next 30 seconds. You want to call new days? When I'm sitting back and I was talking to them years ago and they were coming out with a phone line and they were sitting back telling me one time we were at a club and well, we were at dinner before we went to the club, I should say. And we were sitting back talking at the table and he was saying how he makes how hip hop has become more of a lifestyle. The way people talk is more than people picking up a microphone and just rapping. You don't have to be a rapper to be part of hip hop. And whereas in security, when it comes to computer hacking, it has become a thing of his own. So in the hacker community . So this is from a person who has been tweeting that he's going to be here that is not here. He owes me dinner, by the way. It's a group of people. Just a, I don't know, right? We're running short on time. So spoiler alert, he wants to be more or less like the voice of the hacker community. Yeah, you guys do, absolutely. So he wants to help change the game so that people recognize how powerful hackers are and he's going to be the one to do it. So, you know, whatever that means to you. While wearing super cool swag. Yeah. Well, I mean, his parents had to repay already, you know, how much, whatever he said, $30,000 or anything else. Were you done? Was that it? Well, we've got more, but I think people are tired of the interview already. So we can move on. By the way, this is a record. People can't even tolerate five minutes of this guy prerecorded. So, yeah. The $AS dollar. We lost the $AS dollar. Someone in the EFF has the $AS dollar. One of the EFS bankers will have the $AS dollar. We could make a new $AS dollar. Who wants to help make an $AS dollar? I have two nice of an $AS to make the $AS dollar, to be honest. Yeah, Jericho, get up here. Jericho. Jericho. We need an $AS dollar. He will give it to us from a distance. Give it to us from a distance? It's your ass. Oh, he has balls. No, I mean, like, literally balls. I'm not touching that. It hasn't been anywhere yet. You've had it. It's not converted yet. Not it. It was in my pocket. Exactly. We're going down the wrong road. Okay, let's bring it all home. One last thing about that. Mike. If you want the most amusing part of Evans, since you said changing the game, search for his rant called changing the game. It's on either GregoryDEvans.com or Legat. You read that and it will really explain who he is. All this podcast just fits right into it. So it's worth it for that one rant. And that really comes down to the difference between somebody like Gregory Evans and us. We are part of the community. We are here for you guys to talk to us and to give feedback and throw balls at us. And we really are, all of us are part of the community. And I don't think there's anybody up here who would disagree with that. So I think that's why we are different, I hope. Well, we don't own penny stock companies. We don't swindle people. So that would make us different as well. And we don't get our mail schools dropped. 7.5 gigs of them. Is that a challenge? No, Joseph, because it's just not going to happen. But I did hear I got owned tomorrow, so it's okay. All right, so we've been all over the place right now with this. This is definitely even less structured than an actual podcast. It is, and it's more alcohol involved in it than a normal podcast. This is a normal podcast for jaded exposure. Only less alcohol. So I have a question. Yeah, there's no ducks either. There's tons of ducks with jaded exposure. Yeah. I was going to ask the question, why do you guys listen? And I don't want to know. You're like, say that louder. Hey, we're in Vegas. What? Eternal optimism. In other words, you think we might get better someday? Yeah, not going to happen. Everybody up here is just rich Zach and I. After 250 episodes, no. Yeah. Well, just before we wound this thing up, I couldn't let 250 episodes go without buying you a present. And I saw this, and I just couldn't not buy it. So it is signed. But I couldn't find Rick Astley, so I got Rick Hayes to sign it instead. So I'm never going to give you up. I'm never going to let you down. I've never seen one of these. What is it? It's broken already, don't worry. It will never be played. That was probably the end of our relationship. We're breaking up, I'm sorry. But we've already committed to Malta, and my wife has already agreed. Okay, so like many of our shows, this is a time where we've gone well past when we should have ended, and we finally realize it. So we want to thank you guys for showing up for this. We want to thank you guys for supporting all the different podcasters up here. All my balls. It's kind of cool, you know, when we write, when we record these things and we put them out there, we get random tracking stats numbers. But no, the real people actually listen to this stuff, it's kind of cool. So wait a second, before we go, what are all the podcasts we have here? We have John. I'm Josh. From the Southern Fried Security Podcast. We have Jaded Exposure. We have Impose Like Daily. You're a trash security podcast. Paul from Paul.com, just want to take some grass on 250 guys, it's awesome. Larry from Paul.com, Security Weekly. Sorry, that was loud. Why do I always want to spell it W-E-A-K-L-Y? Jericho, I've listened to Lesson 5 podcast in my life. But you've given us plenty to talk about. All right. Jordi Rosted No one wants Jericho to listen to their podcast, because then he'd just send his hate mail afterwards. With sexy squirrels. He doesn't already send you hate mail? Is that just me? All right, Marty, why don't you close this out like every week? Well, this has been another episode of the Network Security Podcast. Thank you.