 Welcome to Tuesday, September 5th, 2023 meeting of the Motilier Design Review Committee. We'll let the participants introduce themselves by speaking their names. Eric Gilbertson. Martha Smurski, member. Steve Everett, member. Eric, you want to go again? Eric Gilbertson, member. Meredith Crandall, staff. At this point, we'll let. I was going to say at this point, we'll let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. Awesome. Thanks, Steve. I wasn't sure if you could see everybody to know that Ben and Liz weren't definitely weren't on. Alright, so let me do this. I'm going to share my screen. And the share screen information is really for anybody who is watching this from over Orca media. But there's going to be some information that anybody who hasn't done this so far will probably find useful. All right, so for those members of the public who are viewing tonight's meeting via Orca media, you can participate in the design review committee meeting via the zoom platform through either video or telephone access options. If you want to plug into the zoom meeting and be able to see everything on your computer or smartphone screen, you can type this into your browser and it will bring you into zoom and I'll let you into the meeting. If it needs, if it's for some reason asks you to put in an ID, there's the meeting ID. Alternatively, you can call in on your phone and you'll be able to at least listen to the meeting and ask questions, talk to us if you need to. So you would want to call in on that number and then put in this meeting ID when prompted. Again, I'll get a little pop up that says that you want to get into the meeting and I'll let you in. If anyone is trying to access the meeting and having problems, please email me at mcrandall at Montpelier hyphen vt.org. For those attending via zoom, turning your video on is optional. For everyone attending, please keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking. This will reduce background noise. And note that the zoom chat function should only be used for troubleshooting or logistics questions. If you have a question or comment about an item on the agenda, please raise your hand either physically or by using the raise hand tool button on your toolbar. And then when you've been called on, make sure to state your name once you're unmuted, state your name and if you're a member of the public, your address. Okay, we don't actually have any members of the general public on tonight, just applicants. So in the event the public is unable to access the meeting, note that it will need to be continued to a time, place, and certain because this is our only way of accessing the meeting. Thank you very much. I'll hand this back over to the chair. Have all the members had a chance to look at the agenda and do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? I'll move to approve the agenda. You're in a second. Oh, okay. All in favor of the agenda. Speak your names. Martha. And Steve, the agenda is approved. Is, did Brian show up yet or not yet, okay, then we'll move on to the second application for 39 College Street, owner Vermont College of Fine Arts, applicant Greenway Institute is someone here from Greenway. I'm here. My name is Steve Cordell. I'm with Gossens-Bachman Architects, and I'm here representing Greenway. Okay, go ahead and describe your project for us. Okay, this is the location for this is 39 College Street. It's up at the Vermont College of Fine Arts campus on it's on College Street for facing the green. It's on the east side. And we're looking at exterior of Greenway in front of Noble Hall. So Greenwood Greenway Institute is looking to occupy this building in the very near future. And so we are in their room. They're going to treat this building as sort of their academic center. And so we're looking at improving the accessibility entrance there. So right now there is an asphalt sort of ramp that is under the portico. So we're looking at adding bluestone to that place under the portico and then extending the patio out about 10 feet towards the to the west, so towards College Street. And that would all be up at a little bit higher level so that you'd have direct access right to the inside without the asphalt ramp. And then the on the left, let's say right side of Noble Hall, most lined up with the entrances. We'd have sidewalks. We'd remove that central sidewalk and add sidewalks to the north unless that is south and the north one almost aligns with the existing curb cut. And so that would take the pedestrian from the sidewalk directly back to this patio, which is extends, which is an extension of that front porch. And then we're looking at removing the two large evergreens and replacing those with some surface berry trees. It's a flowering tree that grows to about 25 feet tall and using those as new trees that would be in the front of Noble Hall. And we're not looking at adding. And then one other thing I should mention is that a low wall that's about 30 inches high, the stone wall that would sort of shield the patio, almost make it like so that when you come to the you've arrived at a place for the Greenway Institute. And so that could be a low sitting wall. And so it's going to be a stone that's similar to the blue stone. And we're not looking for any new lighting, just the new trees and the new wall and the new stone surfaces for the patio and and the sidewalks. That's the crux. That's the overview. Steve, what kind of a business is Greenway? They're an academic school. So they teach engineering and they are looking at teaching engineering in a non-traditional way. And so oftentimes the way engineering is taught that you sort of learn the principles first. And you apply those principles and sort of text it in the model saying a lot of people to learn that way. A lot of engineers, they can't get through the first hurdle. And so they start with the idea of building and breaking and then remaking. So it's a new model for thinking of a different model. We're thinking about engineering and they've teamed with the school in Pennsylvania. And so for this first session, I think they have about 30 students that are going to be would be on the Vermont campus. So they would be residential? Yeah. Yeah. And so the noble hall has residences within it and then teaching facilities within it too. Okay, thank you. This would be their initial central building. What other buildings are they going to include with their purchase? I'm not 100% sure about that. Katie Gustafson who's here may be able to speak more to that question. Okay. It's not part of the application. I was just curious which buildings would be occupied. And I'm not sure that I know everything. That's okay. You're muted, Katie. You can talk if you want, but it's not essential to this particular application. Add to that if people would like more information. At the beginning of that, Katie. I said I would be happy to add more information if that would be helpful. Is there's enough lighting under the porch there on the front of the building to light up the the access and a grass through behind the wall and then to the sidewalks or to the walkways? Steve, I'm not 100% sure. I assume there is. We're not making any change to the lighting, but I haven't got up there with the light meter. So I can test that with the light meter to make sure. The only reason I'm asking is as you're looking at the diagram from the sidewalk, looking back, you have the long wall and then on either side you have two short walls. And if you wanted to light up that area where you come through and make that turn onto the walkways, it might be a good spot to put just a couple of solar downlights. And if other committee members are okay with that, we could leave that as an option for you and you don't have to get involved with any wiring or anything and their motion detector downlights that are solar powered. Okay, that'd be great. Just a little note. I don't know exactly where you're thinking about attaching them, Steve, if you're thinking about, but they could be something attached to the wall, too, on the ends of the walls. If you do want to do that, Steven, we will need to run it through the site plan standards to check the lumen output, but you could always do something pretty low lumens that would almost be more decorative, but would still help people get around that wall in the dark. I was thinking you may want to place them, you could get a dark brown color that blends in well with the stone wall and then you could put them not on the long wall, but I would put them on the face of the short walls on either side. It would illuminate that area between the short wall and the long wall, so as you're coming off the porch, it shows, it sort of gives you a direction as to where to go to exit. If there's low light, particularly in January when there's no light at four o'clock. Again, those are very low lumens, but it's sufficient to sort of give a wash, a light wash over that small area. It's a down light, so you don't really see the light from the street, but you would just see the area of the walkways that's lit up to give you direction either coming in or leaving. Okay. I share no problem with adding that to the application or so. I don't have a problem with it either. I think it's real nice you're using quality materials. Okay. Blue stone is a lot better than asphalt. I was thinking the exact same thing as Eric. You're removing asphalt and putting in something that is a lot more traditional looking. Okay. I think it would be a really welcoming friend's piece for the Institute. Unless anybody has any other comments, questions or suggestions, I can read through the criteria for projects in the district. Number two, existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use acceptable. Proposed landscaping shall be compatible with the neighborhood and the site on which the project is located acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities, mechanical equipment, trash storage, fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact or adequately and appropriately screened from public view acceptable. And lastly, landscaping screening and site furnishings projects within the design review overlay district and subject to the landscaping requirements in section 3203 shall consider the following. Site furnishings including fencing, seating and other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards. Does landscaping obscure or undermine key architectural patterns or elements on historic buildings and mechanical equipment screening? Again, acceptable. And then there is an optional change that the applicant could install solar lights in the area between the short and the longer walls to illuminate the area. Again, a dark bronze colored solar downlight which would illuminate that area giving direction for entrance and exit from the porch. All in favor speak your names. Eric says yes. Martha says yes. And Steve says yes. So it passes three in favor. Meredith, do you want to describe the next step? So, Steven, if you can get me the data on whatever light fixtures you want to use and the key, two key things are the like the shades, right, whether it's fully shielded and the lumen output per light and the number of those lights that you're going to use. And then because I need that so that I can wrap up the site plan report. But because what they've put on the form here is just an option, I don't need you to sign the form that Steve filled out just now. But if you can get me that information, then we'll wrap it all up and get you out that permit. Perfect. Thank you very much. Do you want us to email you when the permit's ready so that somebody can just pick it up versus relying on the mail? Yeah, email will be great. Okay. Yeah, the mail's a little tricky still. It is. Thank you, everyone. I appreciate it. Thank you for coming and good luck with your project. And as everything proceeds, we'll probably see you more. Yeah, I hope so. Okay, thank you. All right. Take care. Meredith, tricky is a very nice word for the mail service. Yeah, it's been rough. I just had some lights come on here weirdly. I don't know. I'm suddenly all washed out. So we still don't have our other applicant for the sign. Did committee members have any thought on the signs and then I could send back to Brian so he can then come back at the next meeting prepared with any preliminary comments. Like, is there anything you don't like about the application? Meredith, my only thought was on the wall sign. I saw his representation of it and it seemed like that color, the white, is really, really white and it stands, it almost attacks you as you walk by. I'm wondering if that is just a representation because of the way that this is pictured or if that, in fact, is what he intends. But I would like to see something a little softer. Okay, so having it be a pretty stark difference, a pretty white white for the projecting sign, do you want the white background there a little? No, I have no problem with that. But yeah, it's not right up against the building, which the wall sign is. Yeah. And you understood that his application is to have a fabricated sign and just put it over the sign that's already there. I did understand that, yeah. Okay. One thing I noticed is looking at the small pictures of it, I said that the Art Decaux font is very nice, but the small lines are so fine that it might be a little hard to read the sign from where the information moves, kiosk used to be. You can get quite a ways away from that and see it from across the street. This might be hard to read. Okay. That's usually Steve's area, but I don't have any objection to it. It's their problem if they can't read it. My only suggestion would be to do the ultra thin lines with a little thicker. And I know that might not make it authentic. But if you look at the hanging sign, that one might benefit from the same idea. From a distance, those small lines will disappear. I noticed it in the small pictures. I couldn't read the small pictures. They don't have to be, it doesn't have to be as as fat as the remaining letters, but it should be a little thicker just for readability. Yep. Yep. Especially because there's so much font there in sort of a small space on the on the round one in particular. Okay. I will take those inputs. I don't know if he wants to modify this or go with a different font. Again, I don't have any issue with it, but I feel bad for him if you, you know, from a distance, you can't read the sign. Yeah. Because the letter height is fine, but again, we want it to be readable just for his business. Yep. Okay. So we should table that and let him come back and see if he can see what his thoughts are. Yep. Sounds good. Do I hear a second for tabling? I'll second that. All in favor of tabling till the next meeting, speak your names. Martha. Here. And Steve. Thank you. As everyone had a chance to look at the meeting minutes of August the 21st. Yes, I'm as global as they are. I'll second that. All in favor of the minutes, speak your names. Here, because yes. Martha. And Steve says yes. Minutes are approved. Fabulous. Anyone have any other business? No. Not really, except the downtown is looking better every day. Isn't it amazing? It's getting cleaner by the day. Yeah. And you know, went down, I think it was Saturday and there are clothes racks out in front of some of the buildings. You know, Bear Pond being open and Bailey Road being open really makes a difference in downtown. Somebody is putting flowers out so that looks nice. Yeah. Yep. More businesses open all the time. It's really, it's coming along. It's coming along. Friday was really exciting for both Bear Pond and Bailey Road and Capitol Stationers. It was fun to be downtown. Well, good. Okay. If nobody has anything else, do I hear a motion to adjourn? I'll make a motion to adjourn. I'll second that. All in favor of adjournments, speak your names. Oh, hold on, hold on, hold on. Can you discuss and withdraw it? Brian just joined. We have our applicant. That was close. We'll back up. Untabling? We're untabling. Hello, Brian. Sorry about that. I was watching him move with my kids and got, well, I lost track of time. That's okay. You spread your sign for us. So it is the, it's a filibuster sign. And I believe I have the materials that it's made out of there on the application. And so it's a vinyl sign over that material. And the large one is going to be going right on top of the turn Asian sign. That's how it's going to be attached. So we're not going to do anything different on the building itself. And then the hanging sign, which is the two coffee cups, you know, one over the other, will be going on the bracket that the old Asian rectangular sign is on. Do you know, do you know what the height is from the bottom of the sign down to the sidewalk? This is a, this is a very educated guess. About seven feet. Okay. That's fine. They just, there's a requirement that it be a minimum of, I think it's six, eight, which is standard door height, but seven feet should be fine. Yeah, it'll be substantially more than standard door height. I feel confident in saying that. Okay. Because we're going to have it, we're using a chain links to hang it. So we can adjust those accordingly if the current links are too long. Okay. We'll make sure that, we'll make sure that that height, yeah, Brian, we'll make sure that that height limit is part of the discussion before we issue the permit. We'll just double check that so that you know you're ordering the right size sign. Okay. Thank you. And there was one comment before you got here, and again, then had to do with particularly the wall sign above the doorway, but also, I mean, the hanging signs a little larger, but from a distance, the way it shows on the illustration, the font that's used, the thin lines in the lettering are so thin that from a distance, that may be hard to read. Okay. And the only suggestion was, and again, for your benefit, to make those lines slightly larger just to make the sign more readable. You don't have to change the font, but I would look at those thin lines and make them just a little larger. So again, you want them to be readable from the longest distance possible. Right. So thicker. I know it's looking at the small pictures that you couldn't read the sign in the small pictures. And I think if you were standing across the street at Steve's building, or a little bit more towards the hotel, you just might not be able to read what it says. It's up to you. It was your sign, but... No, I'll definitely take that into consideration. I don't know if the photos that we turned in are... I mean, they're an accurate representation, but I feel like the letters will be more robust on the real sign, as you kind of just took a photo and photoshopped it onto the building in order to meet the requirements for the permitting. I don't have... The gentleman I used to make these signs is a professional sign maker, but he doesn't do any of the computer work. And so myself and my manager, Jay, did the photoshopping in order to satisfy the requirements. Yeah, unfortunately, the gentleman I use is... Computers just aren't his thing. He's a hands-on type person. Just for your own benefit, I would make sure your designer and the sign maker are in touch with each other to address your concern that the sign be readable from as long a distance away. Again, if you're paying for the sign, you want somebody to be able to see it very clearly. Right. Okay. So, Steve, are you thinking like an option so that he can stick with the same general style of font, but that they can have thicker thin lines that are in here? Yes. Okay. And again, we'll leave that as an option for you. And again, if it was my sign, I would want to make sure it's readable by as many people as possible. And the more readable it is, the more it's to your benefit. And again, I would just... We can make a suggestion that the sign designer and the sign maker get together to make sure that it's as readable as you wish it to be. Yeah. No, I appreciate the suggestion for sure. And I'll follow up with that for sure, to make sure that from a distance, it's clear because that's only going to benefit me as you said. And Brian, my comment was about the wall sign. It seems... And this may be because of the photoshopping, but the background, the white background is very harsh against the building. I wondered if you had looked at anything that might be a little softer. I'm recognizing that you want contrast between your letters and the background, but the white is very, very white. Yeah. Well, I think the white would lend to it being able to be seen from a distance, rather than something that lends in more or doesn't stand out as much. Okay. Well, I'd like to make it as a suggestion. Okay. Not a no, but a suggestion. Yeah. Yeah, we can do that as well. So, like, Martha, are you thinking more like a creamier tone or something closer to like the granite on the building or something like that? Yes. Yeah, something creamier or ivory in that area. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. So, again, that'll be an option for you, Brian. Yeah. Yeah, we can play with it. That's easy enough for the designer to just change those colors at will, really, with his program. So, yeah. It's more of a softer satin white as opposed to something that's sort of white and very reflective and glaring, possibly, because that sun in the afternoon from about noon on, that gets a lot of direct sunlight on it. That's a very correct observation. Yeah, that whole side of the street is in the sun from like noon on for sure. Okay. Does anyone have any other suggestions, comments or questions? And I can read down through the criteria for signs in the district. The size, location, design, color, texture, lighting, and material of all exterior signs within the design review district shall be compatible with the buildings and structures of the site and surrounding properties acceptable. Where appropriate signing shall respect the original sign placement and sign bands on historic structures acceptable. If a building has multiple tenants, they'll be shall be consistency and placement and size among the signs acceptable. It is recommended the sign placement be centered over building entries acceptable. Sign installation shall minimize damage to character defining building materials on the building that's acceptable. In masonry buildings, fasteners shall be in the mortar joints acceptable. Sign design color and typography shall respect historic precedence where appropriate and shall be the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings acceptable. Sign support structure shall be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex for dominant in and of themselves acceptable. And again, with the suggestions to again, take a look at the thinner lines in the sign. Again, working with your sign designer and whoever is making the sign. Again, the suggestion was to make sure those lines are large enough to be readable for your benefit. And again, the suggestion for the because of the exposure of the sign rather than a white white to go with a of satin off white. It's still white, but it's a little satin. You won't glare with the exposure to the sun that that sign gets. And based on that all in favor speak your names. Based on one yes. This is Martha. And Steve says yes. So it's three in favor. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. And thanks for your patience. I'm sorry for my tardiness today. Result snuggled off in the couch of my four year old. So tell us a little bit about your restaurant. So fuller bus is going to be a full service breakfast and lunch restaurant. So we're going to bring back seated breakfast to Montpelier with pancakes, corned beef hash biscuits and gravy breakfast sandwiches, all that kind of stuff as well as having a quick service line where the former bar was for Asiana. We're still going to have like beer, wine, alcohol, mimosas, buddy, marriage, that kind of thing. But we're going to do a quick service line where people can grab. We're going to do like certain types of smoothies. We're not going to do a lot of pastries since I feel like Montpelier is saturated in pastries or at least it was prior to the flood. We'll have grain bowls and avocado toast as well as we're going to bring in brio coffee. He's my favorite roaster in Vermont. They're out of Burlington area. And yeah, that's kind of the gist of it. And then we'll be available to be rented out in the evenings. We're not going to do dinner service, at least not initially. But it's a beautiful space. So we want people to have the option of renting it for parties and holiday parties and caterings and that kind of thing. Thank you. Sounds good to me. Yes. Thank you. And good luck with your project. Thank you very much. Thank you. Brian, do you want us to just email the permit out to you or do you want to mail it out or do you want us to email you so that you or someone else can come pick it up? If you could just mail it out, that'd be great. Okay. The 43 State Street address? We have, yes, 43 State Street. So we'll email that out. I'll get that out the door as soon as possible tomorrow. Perfect. I appreciate that. Awesome. Well, actually, as soon as possible after I get the form from Steve that he was just talking about. So tomorrow the next day, probably. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Thanks, Brian. Thank you. All right. Have a nice evening. You too. Okay. Goodbye. Now we can adjourn, right? I will move for that. Martha, second it. Second it. All in favor of adjourn, let's speak your names. Martha. And Steve, meeting is adjourned.