 Hello and welcome to news from the front line a show about confronting power and the people who do it. And one of the most powerful adversaries that we're facing at the moment is a tiny pathogen that's managed to bring the world to its knees over the last year. I'm talking of course about COVID and the COVID-19. If my guest today is a grassroots activist who's at the center of an international effort to eradicate this virus from our planet and she's doing all of this from her living room. Vicki van der Tocht, welcome to the MTV. Thank you, I'm so happy to be here. So let's kick it off. Who are you and what do you do? I'm Vicki, I live in the Netherlands. I actually worked as a communications expert and I used to run a platform for sustainable living. But then last year I got hit by COVID myself. So in March I got infected and this was really back when in the Netherlands they talked about COVID as if it was the flu and it only hit the elderly. So that really made me think well I'm only 28, if it only hits the elderly then why am I so sick? So that really started to get me thinking on all of this. Right and that was last March that you got COVID but if I understand correctly you're still suffering from the symptoms of COVID today. Yes, I'm still suffering. That's really the thing about COVID that a lot of people still don't know about sadly is that when you know it's being talked about as the a couple percent of the actual amount is still kind of being determined. But what is being said that it only hits some people, mostly frail people, mostly people with underlying conditions, but not being talked about as much is that it really hits a lot of people my age as well and kids as well and they go on to to have long-term symptoms. And these are not necessarily the people that end up in the hospital. So they don't end up in the data with hospital admissions. There is not really a spotlight on these people, not just it should be. So that really got me thinking if I am in that group that is not being talked about, how many people are in this situation. So yeah, that really put me on sort of a quest to figure out how many people are actually sick and what is the situation of these people. And then so, I mean, this is March 2020 when all of this happened and you started your grassroots action with a Twitter poll. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, so way back in March, like I said, in the Netherlands it was being talked about as if it was just a flu and actually our Prime Minister came out stating that one has to get it. It's not that bad. And also, we didn't have a clue how many people were infected at that point. Because really, there was very little testing. They said there were only people that came from Germany who brought the disease to some people that came from Italy. But really, when you got sick back then, they didn't really test you came from Italy. But at the same time, I was very act like I was already sick and I spent my days online basically just following the news, Twitter. And I saw so many people mentioning that they were sick at home and they didn't have access to testing. They couldn't see a doctor because doctors wouldn't let people actually come to their office or come to their practice. And I decided to just do a Twitter poll to kind of get a feel of how many people at the moment, how many of those people actually thought how many people knew that they had been in contact with someone who possibly had COVID. And I got so many responses. It was about even 400 people and even a lot of people that mentioned that they have traveled to Italy or who have been even to China and they didn't have any access to testing. And that number was just so shocking to me because back then we in the country were being told that this is such a big deal really. And these numbers showed that well, we didn't really have a hold on the amount of people. We didn't really have a clue of how many people were sick at that moment. And also because there was no testing, we contract the virus because there was no clear view of the amount of people and the GPs wouldn't see them. So from that poll everything started really. I reached out to a journalist who noticed the poll and who also connected through social media and she then decided to reach out to our CDC to really ask how many people were tested at that point. That's the equivalent of the Center for Disease Control. Yeah, sorry, because there's a bit of a delay in some internet trouble. Yeah, the Center for Disease Control equivalent in in Holland. Yeah, go on. Yeah, so she decided to reach out to them just to see how many people were tested. And out that at that point, they only did 3000 tests. Most of them were also people that tested twice or even three times. So that kind of gives you an idea of how little how unclear it was, the amount that were already affected. At that point, the media also started talking about the lack of testing and how we don't do and really from that our first wave started and it completely overwhelmed us. We weren't prepared for it. And all of that really came down to that. Well, it was being talked about as if it was just a flu and it was being treated. So yeah, that is really where my whole quest started. Because for me, it was crazy that we were dealing with such a severe disease. And at the same time, the organizations that were there to protect us were doing their job. And at that point, I was still I had the idea in my head, like I live in the Netherlands, good healthcare system, like, what can this even happen? But yeah, that bubble really burst really quickly. I must say it really recovered since then. And so this kind of kicked off a series of grassroots actions that you did first at local level, culminating in you creating at the end of last year, the zero COVID Alliance, which is an umbrella group pushing for zero COVID. Can you explain a little bit about what is the zero COVID strategy? What does it mean? And how does it differ from what governments are in Europe at least are actually doing about COVID? To kind of give you an idea of how it all started because I'm really going from COVID to zero COVID Alliance and happened in between. So what happened in the Netherlands is that there was this really pushing against the chosen strategy. They were called Containment New, and they were the only people back then who really came out. Well, what is happening now is really not how we should deal with it. Back then, there were only a couple of groups worldwide that did the same thing. Of course, I was sick for the first couple of months, so I wasn't a member from the start. But when I joined in, it was really evident that there was only pushback back then in the UK in the Netherlands. And of course, these are all countries that really chose a herd immunity strategy. But we really couldn't believe that we really once out there fighting against this. So we decided, well, if we want to get our voices heard, if we want to show the outside world what's happening in our countries, we really have to amplify our voices. And the only way we can do that is with international collaboration. So first, I had the hotels would take this on and would really make this umbrella organization, but nothing was happening. So in September, I just decided to do it myself really. So what I do is to create a platform where we can amplify the voices of all these COVID efforts around the world. Because really, what was happened was that we really lost sight of how to deal with infectious diseases. And what we're advocating for as a movement, as a zero COVID movement, is getting back to the roots of how to deal with this disease. So a zero COVID movement basically means that we want to contain this virus. We want to get to a low amount of numbers so that we can go back to normal life. Because really what the chosen strategy has done for most countries is that we ended up in these lockdowns. Really, most countries, they implemented on and then cases on and then they opened up again. But that is not really a sustainable strategy. It just makes sure that we keep in this in this circle. And in between, it's not really safe for groups, but really for all of us, because everyone that's at risk has a risk of either becoming severely sick from the initial disease or getting long COVID. So what we try to do with the zero COVID alliance is to is to do advocacy work, is to educate people, is to support people, is to provide resources in terms of PPE, in terms of information about how to deal with this virus. And we do that around the world. Right. And this, I mean, the zero COVID strategy, this is not a fringe movement. There are some very big names involved in this. I mean, I think Jeremy Corbyn is a proponent of this strategy. There are, of course, countries outside Europe that have successfully, let's say that are successfully striving for zero COVID. New Zealand is the example that always gets mentioned, but also countries across Asia. So tell me a little bit about the people that were involved and the types of the types of people in the movement. Yeah, like you say, there are there are big names involved. There are lots of scientists involved. Because honestly, if you ask any worked with infectious disease earlier, they all know that that the way to deal with this is to just make sure that you contain it. And the way to contain it is really all the all the different that we're advocating for that we kind of slide up. There are there are scientists involved. There are journalists involved. We even have some A-listers, celebrities, some even got long COVID themselves. So they know how serious this disease is. There are also activists, politicians, you name it. Everyone that that reads all the info on what it does and how we can contain this knows that this is the way to go. Because really, we've seen that the alternative worked. What do you think is behind that? I mean, why have if I understand correctly, I mean, we're talking about the competing strategies of living with the virus and eliminating the virus and eventually, hopefully eradicating the virus. Those two competing strategies, why do you think that that first option is the way that European governments are, the trajectory that European governments are on basically at the moment? It is really a short term plan. A lot of governments now have seen how their economy has really sucked due to this fund and they want a quick fix and so the quick reopen. So whether opening shops or reopening the bars and restaurants, it seems like an easy fix, but really in the long term, it will cause even as well. If you end up in the lockdown because of that reopening, you will have to do it all over again. But yeah, for politicians, it may seem like a good idea. Of course, there are also lots of lobby groups involved that really are pressuring governments around the world to reopen as quickly as possible. But yeah, there are a lot of different reasons why a government would decide not to go for a Zero COVID strategy. I just haven't heard a good one yet. Okay, fair enough. And if you could just summarize, I mean, imagine I'm a decision maker and I'll say, okay, Vicki, I'm going to listen to you. Tell me the top three things I need to do to get on board with this Zero COVID strategy right now. What would you say to me? You mean as a person? As a decision maker. No, as a decision as a policy maker. Honestly, there are a lot of things that go into this. One of the things that prevents people from or prevents countries from from managing them effectively is because there is no financial support for people that get sick or people that have to quarantine because they've been in contact with someone who tested positive. And that really makes for a situation that people have to choose staying on the float, being able to pay their rent, or going in quarantine. And that is just not a fair decision. So financial support is really one thing to play here. Aside from that, we really have to quarantine and not just for a couple of days. So for example, in the Netherlands, the quarantine time to only eight days. But we know that for COVID, the time is already eight days. And at the sickness itself. So a safe amount of time for quarantine would be 10 days. And we even see now with the UK variant, that there is really a need for 20 days. There are really things that we have lost sight of. And shortening quarantine times has all been for the economy. We've heard all the reasons. Most of them come down to schools because it's it's been a real issue in schools to to have one person test positive. And then the whole class has to go into quarantine for 10 days. Makes for that schools are kind of like opening up and closing down again. And then they do that for months on end. That is not really. And also, it doesn't actually prevent the disease from spreading. So what we have to do is really go back to these measures that break this chain of infections. That is that is how we deal with infectious diseases. So we need to have proper testing. We need to have great communication about about how we contain this virus, why we do it, how we do it, how long it's going to take and why we need everyone on board. Also, one thing where most governments have been lacking, most haven't come out stating all these things. They didn't give us an end date. And therefore people don't know how long they have to do this. And if you don't know how long you have to do all this. Yeah. How do you expect people to stay motivated to do all these measures? It's that aside from that, of course, we still have to trace and isolate people that actually got infected. That has really been an issue in most countries, whereas cases go up. We get into this situation where it's impossible to trace all the positive cases. And if you can't trace them, you can't actually this chain of infections. And also, if you don't actually know how the virus is spreading, you can't isolate all the things that have been infected in the meantime. So all of these measures that we need to set, these are the basic principles of how to deal with infectious diseases. All of us is stated in pandemic plans like governments around the world. So they really know how to do it. Now it's just a matter of them actually acting on it. I see. But practically speaking, from a strategic communications point of view, I would imagine that it might be quite hard to convince people who are weary of, as you call it, soft lockdowns or yo-yo lockdowns without end dates and businesses which are close to bankruptcy or gone, to say, well, actually, here's a harder lockdown with an end date, but a harder lockdown enforced and a more stricter regime of testing and tracing and so on. So how do you square that circle in the campaign? Yeah, honestly, I hear what you're saying. And that is also a result of the last year. I mean, a lot of people have already heard everything before, right? They heard everything about lockdowns, how it was going to be temporary. But when you really look at the type of lockdowns that countries have implemented, it hasn't been enough. It hasn't actually been a lockdown. And the type of communication that goes with that has also been lacking. So what is necessary is really a 180 change. It comes down to proactively informing your population, keeping them up to date on what you're doing, why you're doing, and like I said, how long it's going to take, where the virus is at the moment, where outbreaks are, so that people are informed. One of the things that really stood out to us as a group, as a movement, is for example, how parents really haven't been informed on the amount of infections in schools. Ministry of Education around the world actually decided not to keep track of outbreaks in schools. And therefore, parents don't actually know where, if there is an outbreak in their school, how many infections there are, and what the school is going to do about it. But a government would actually get on TV, do a press conference, and come out to state, well, at the moment, in this area of the country, there are so many outbreaks, this is happening in this city, or in this school, in this office, all will actually know how to act on that. They will be fully informed, and they can make informed decisions. And really, what we've seen over the last year is that people have not gotten enough information to make informed decisions. So we really feel that if you provide people with all the information that will change. Well, actually, you have some examples, don't you, of grassroots groups that have stepped in to fill this gap with regard to reporting the number of cases in schools. I mean, tell us about that. These are informal groups, they're not NGOs, there's no funding, they're just parents who've got together. What did they do, and how did it work? Yeah, and honestly, that they're not paid, I think that is the best part about this, because they all do this from the goodness of their heart. So yeah, there have been parent-led groups around the world who noticed that the government weren't keeping track of infections in schools, and not to schools, but also the effects of COVID in kids. So what they decided to do, and there is one great example of that in the Netherlands, we have had a school hotline that was run, or that is run, I must say, by a group of concerned parents who decided to, to study with a data company to enable parents throughout the country to report infections in their schools. So what they have to submit evidence, they can report the amount of infections, and that way the data company show all this data part of the daily COVID data that they are sharing with the whole country. And this is happening in the Netherlands, it is happening in Germany, we've seen it happening in Canada as well, and just a couple of weeks ago I saw that there is now another initiative in Switzerland, and of course it is great that this is happening, I'm really happy and just so proud of these parents that they took this on, but at the same time it is really sad that it is necessary just because governments aren't willing to do it themselves. But yeah, this is a great effort that we support wholeheartedly. And there was another example that you were involved in, I think, in Holland, a legal case about prosecuting parents for keeping their kids off school, tell me about that and what happened there. Yes, in the Netherlands we have mandatory in-school education, and that means that even in a pandemic, if the government decides to off-school parents are forced to send their children to school, and that in itself wouldn't be a problem, or doesn't necessarily have to be a problem, but at the same time we didn't have any schools, or not sufficient. So there weren't any, there wasn't social distancing, there wasn't proper ventilation, and at the same time kids weren't being tested, and parents weren't being informed about outbreaks in schools. So that really resulted in a situation where parents got prosecuted for keeping their kids at home. So basically for keeping this, well we heard about this, we from Containment New, the Dutch Dutch group that I'm with, and were shocked that this was happening, like that this was happening in the country. So we decided to reach out to all these parents and to take action. So we reached out to many lawyers, and luckily we found the best lawyer in the country who was willing to take this on. So we decided to sue the state, as for three things basically, for the government to start communicating honestly about the effects of COVID in kids, and also the transmission in children. Because back then it was being said, CDC, RIVM, that kids barely transmit this virus, and they barely get sick, but at the same time we knew that the study they stuck to was a study being done in lockdown. So the data was flawed. We asked for either masks to be implemented or social distancing, and we asked for the suspension of mandatory education. Well all of this, it took a couple of months to get this set up. We had to do a crowdfunding campaign to be able to get all the money together to actually fund this lawsuit, and we did. We managed to actually collect 20,000 euros to be able to start this lawsuit. First, during the court case we had some arguments that basically we just asked the Dutch government to stick to the WHO guidelines for schools. And what the judge ruled was that the state really didn't have any great arguments for why they didn't stick with the WHO guidelines, and they had to come up with some better arguments. Eventually we got the final verdict in the beginning of January, and the judge clearly came out to say that while he actually couldn't do education, he did write a separate paragraph to say that, well, we are living in a pandemic, and therefore it is only logical. It would be a shame to actually prosecute parents who want to keep their kids at home. And this verdict resulted in that the mandatory education is now suspended. Wow, well done. Yeah, it's really great. Thank you. I know we're having internet trouble a little bit here, so I hope that people watching got all that, but basically as a result of this grassroots led crowdfunding legal action that you're describing just now, parents in the Netherlands cannot be prosecuted for keeping their kids away from school for fear of catching COVID. I hope that case is documented somewhere, and at the end of the show you can give us some links so that other people, if necessary, can take it up and adapt and tweak it in case they're facing the same challenge in their countries. I want to switch gears a little bit. I don't want to get back to sort of doom and gloom, but since you're so central to this campaign, you must be swimming in proof points and arguments and studies and data. Are there any myths that you can burst for us when it comes to COVID? Anything, any narratives that are out there that are commonly accepted that are actually false? Oh, there are so many myths. I mean, I can only assume that you're familiar with some of them. I mean, the biggest one probably is that this is just the flu and we should treat it as such. Of course, we know that this is not just the flu, like this is not influenza, this is SARS-2. It's a respiratory virus that has severe effects, and since the data came out in the last year, we see that it also causes organ damage, so it causes damage to the heart, damage to the brain. It can have long-term effects in both young and old people. It can cause MISC in kids and PIMS disease. There are so many myths about how severe this disease is, so that is really one thing I'd like to debunk. Aside from that, I mean, there are so many myths. So, for example, one thing that's being said is that we cannot contain this virus at all. The only countries that have managed to contain this virus are islands. Well, first off, that is not true. So, it is to contain this virus locally. The only thing that's missing is the actual will to try. So, this is another great misconception about COVID. Aside from that, let me see. Is there anything that we... I just mentioned that kids cannot transmit this virus. Say that again, sorry. That kids... Say that again. Kids cannot transmit this virus. That is also another myth. Yeah, there are so many more. Okay. Okay. Okay. If somebody's watching this and they're thinking, yeah, I want to get involved in this. Not necessarily to push policymakers for zero COVID, but just to get involved in correcting some of these mistakes, these policy mistakes or mistakes that they see in their community with regard to COVID. What would be their first step? I mean, how resources like points of contact for them to reach out to and get involved as opposed to just waiting for the end of lockdown or waiting for the next thing that the government is announcing? Honestly, this may seem like a very simple answer, but we see it happening around the world. Adhering to masks. And this is a great part of preventing disease. If you talk about busting myths, I mean, still a lot of belief that masks actually don't work. And that is just the biggest thing. If you want to do something for your community and you live in a community where people are still refusing to wear masks, be that change. Actually reach out to people. Show them either the data or just try to encourage them to take this step. Be the great example for the people around you. This can have such a huge impact. So what we see is that about immunity, well, at the same time we have herd mentality. So if people see other people doing this, they are much more likely to be that behavior. So that is just in terms of wearing masks. At the same time, I mean, all the simple measures that people are being asked to stick to, it is so important that we in that one thing I'd really like people to know and to speak up about is that COVID is airborne. It is an airborne disease. It can spread through the air. And this is actually not being communicated by governments. And therefore, people feel that if they are at home with just their family or with one visitor, they don't have to wear a mask or they don't have to social distance because it's just one person. The CDC is so important that people actually reach out. Sorry to cut you off because of the delay, but the CDC in the US has announced that it was airborne, right? So the US, that's common knowledge in the US, but not other countries, right? Yeah, the CDC luckily has now come out with a statement that it is airborne. But at the same time, I mean, a lot of governments still listen to their own Center for Disease Control. So what we see happening now is that this statement by the CDC is not being copied by countries around the world. And therefore, there are no measures implemented that take airborne transmission into account. And that is one of the biggest problems right now. Yeah, sorry. Since we're talking about that, though, what are the implications then? If it's airborne, what are the things that we're doing today, thinking that it's not airborne that are not protecting us given that it is? One of the biggest issues, and I can just name an example from what is happening, we have this weird measure that walking in a public space to wear a mask, but once you take the mask off, because when you sit, you don't spread this virus. And to me, that is just ridiculous. I mean, with an airborne disease, you know that it doesn't matter if you're sitting or if you're walking, you can always spread this virus just by breathing. So that is really one thing that is really strange. And that all comes down to airborne transmission. And we see the same happening in other countries in terms of measures in bars and restaurants. So in a lot of countries, they ask people to wear a mask or restaurant, but then they sit down at a table, they can take off their mask and they can just have their meal. But of course, this is not going to work with a disease. It doesn't actually do anything. Because you can just as well get infected at your table while eating your burger than as you would at the door. And this is also happening in schools. We have a lot of countries that have implemented masks in schools, is actually only have to wear them in the hallways, they can't eat, but they done in the classroom, because they have set places in the classroom. This is not going to prevent actual viral transmission. Right. Okay. What about someone that's watching that thinks, well, look, I want to get more involved and I want to get active on this in the same way that Vicki's active. Where should they be reaching out? There's really three ways of doing it. I mean, we always try to see reaching out to us and on which level they would like to get into action. So the first one is bottom up. So you start in your community, you try to get a sense of what is needed in your community. Are the people that are getting sick, do they have resources? Do they have groceries? Are they supported? That is one thing that everyone can do. There are so many like neighborhood apps in which you can reach out to your neighbors to see if they have everything they need. Personally, been a great help to me when I got infected. I had a great connection. They offered to do groceries for me. And if they hadn't, I wouldn't be able to actually feed myself. So in that way, you can help the people in your community. And of course, have this support from the people around them. They will be much more likely to break their quarantine. So that is one thing. If you want to take it one level up, try to reach out to the local media. What we have done and what we've seen a lot of our partners do is they write op-eds to kind of share the information that they know that is being shared in their country. So you can do that on the national level. Or you can do it on a local level. Or you can just start with reaching out to your community center that has like a weekly newsletter coming out. As long as you think people informed on what is going on, if you take that on, if you decide to be that voice, there are so many ways of making small and big changes. And then you have the last level and it's really top down. So reach out to policymakers. See if you can create there. I mean, a lot of people know now that the strategy that is being chosen around the world. It needs some adjusting. And reach out to policymakers. I mean, everyone can do that. Email addresses online. There are telephone numbers. For example, your ministry of health that you can reach out to and just kind of share what you have seen happening. You can share that you want a change or that you see that in your area that a change is needed. I mean, they are there listening to the people. So it's always a good idea to try to reach them and just share what is happening on the ground. Because you may actually be very thankful to hear all these things. Something that I find is often a barrier for people to do this. Because they often don't have the arguments. They don't have the links to the studies and all of that. I mean, where would you point people to? Do you have a resource where they could access these things and be able to decide, okay, these are the points I'm going to be sending to this journalist, to that policy maker, et cetera. So they don't have to spend their time doing lots of internet research. Yes. I mean, we have our own, we have our website with lots of resources on there. All our partners have that as well. And at the same time, we're part of a huge international network through the ncoronavirus.org. They have this Slack workspace for 5,000 or I think 6,000 volunteers from all around the world now. And this workspace, it contains a scientist. It's journalists. It's community managers. It's teachers. It's students. It's basically people from every single sector. And they all share their resources. They all share news from around the world. And this has been such a great resource for people to get up to date on the latest things that is going on around the world regarding COVID. Right. Right. The two websites that Vicki just mentioned for people watching, in case they didn't catch it because of the internet, which we're holding onto the internet connection by a thread here, is xerocovidalliance.org, which is Vicki's umbrella group, and endcoronavirus.org, which is the U.S. group. And I myself have been on that Slack channel for several weeks now. And off endcoronavirus.org, anybody can join. And I've just been blown away by the amount of information and data. And it's all so well organized. And it's into lots of different channels on this, on that, et cetera. So anybody that wants to get active in their community, pushing policy makers or journalists or just to help people in the community can certainly find proof points, arguments, strategies, tactics over there. I'd like to ask you something, Vicki. I mean, more on a personal note now. I mean, you said that, you know, you've got long COVID and I understand that the symptoms are, they kind of come and go, but they are still pretty severe. I mean, we were going to do this interview a couple of weeks ago, and unfortunately you had to cancel because you were not well enough. So why do you do this? I mean, like, why aren't you just sitting, watching Netflix, trying to get better? You're actually catching me on a good day. It wouldn't have worked if we talked yesterday, for example. It really changes that fast. And watching Netflix. Yeah, I've been on the couch in three months that I was sick, and I think I've seen everything on Netflix there is to see. So I'm kind of down on series and movies. So if anyone has some recommendations, please reach out. Yeah, but why I do this, honestly, I got so sick myself, and I've spoken to so many people around the world, people my age, people younger, people older, I've been sick for almost a year, some even for what is it, 14 months now. And what we collectively is that we want to do everything to prevent other people from feeling like us. And of course, we have the chronic others die from it. I mean, I've seen people around me, like my neighbor's dad died from this, and it hits everyone so hard. And just knowing that there is a way out of this, knowing there's a way out of this, knowing that people are just uninformed about certain things, that has been so frustrating to me that to me, honestly, it felt like I didn't have a choice. I just had to speak up about this. Also, because there was just so much misinformation doing the rounds, and there still is terms of long COVID, it's still not being talked about as much as it should be. We see it starting now in the UK, in the Netherlands, just today, it got mentioned in Parliament. But it's not a topic of discussion for most governments. They don't take it into account. Just knowing that we can prevent this, if we can all work together, I feel that it is my duty to do everything I can to help others, to protect others, to support people who are going through the same. And I just hope that as many people as possible feel the same about that. Thank you. And as a last question, do you have two or three books, articles, anything that you can recommend where people could learn more about the topics that we're discussing today? We've mentioned the two websites, but if there's anything else that you had in mind, now is the chance to plug them. There are so many articles that came out just on zero COVID. So if there's one thing I can just tell everyone watching is simply just Google it sometime, just see what's out there. And aside from that, the one thing, it's a documentary that I watched. Actually, I have two documentaries. One I watched a while back, actually a couple of years ago, and it is called We Heard the Bells. And it's a documentary about the Spanish flu and how one little town, many people died from this virus and their church someone died. And it was a constant reminder that this pandemic was going on and there was no hiding from them. That really, it made such an impact on me. And I keep that documentary because we don't have any bells. We have ambulances coming by. And at one point, even the ambulance stopped, not because there weren't any ambulances anymore, but because they didn't put on their sirens to not disturb anyone. But the ambulances are still there. The people are still dying. And that now have a way to kind of like shove that out. On the one hand, yeah, maybe it is good for better for your mental health, but at the same time, you can also create this cognitive dissonance. So I can really recommend people to watch that also to just get a sense of how pandemics, how earlier pandemics have evolved and how long it took and what people had to do to deal with it. So that is one. And at the same time, I have this documentary. It is simply called Pandemic. It is on Netflix, which dropped early in 2020. And honestly, when Netflix dropped this documentary, that was really a sign to me because, I mean, you know that Netflix is all around the world. So they at that point decided to come out with this. It seemed like it was going to get real. We will have this. We will get into this pandemic. It will take a long time. It features some great scientists who also looked at the Spanish flu. They really go into what creates pandemics, how we should deal with them, how we can prevent them in the future. And I feel it's a real must watch for everyone because we are now in a pandemic. But zoonotic diseases are of all times. And we can just as well be in another pandemic in 10 years. And we have to do everything to prevent that from happening. Well, thank you. So I guess the message is, do watch Netflix, but watch Pandemic on Netflix and then get active. Okay, I think we can close it there. Vicky, thank you very much for the chat. Really enjoyed speaking to you. And it's been very informative and insightful. Thank you, Vicky. All the best to you. Thank you.