 Hey, what up everybody little unplanned not unplanned. We've been planning this for months. Yeah, that's true And we tend to do that it takes us a long time to get cooking so for I'm Drew lince a lot of creator and host of the anxious truth podcast sitting next to me is Lauren Rosen licensed marriage and family therapist and at the obsessive mind on on the old Instagram platform Very good. We have all the fancy tools here. So I'm gonna put that right up on the screen We are not kidding around here. This is very fancy. It is very fancy. So you guys should be following Lauren if you're not she's awesome So anyway, we had a conversation that popped up like a couple of months ago The this is really hard thing. This is really hard And it is really hard. Yeah So I think we want to have a little discussion about like where is the line between Always acknowledging that it you're doing hard things and this is really hard. No doubt. You can't lose sight of that and getting Where you take this is hard to the point where it becomes a an obstacle and a sticking point totally it's so important I had this sort of but being able to stop and say, okay, like yes, it's hard and And at what point does that cease to be somewhat unimportant? Is that a strange thing to say, you know, I think this is such a hard topic because It's not unimportant, but it it is clearly important to all of us. We don't want to do hard things, but when does it When is when do you have to move past that statement at a certain point? Absolutely and to be clear. Yeah, I agree. It is important and it's important to acknowledge But I think in your own mind. I know in my own mind that there came a point where I Knew it was hard, but if I was going to sort of live in that narrative around. Oh, this is so hard I can't do this that it was it was interfering with my ability to move forward And I see that happen so often for people and I think that's you know, clumsily What I mean when I say something like unimportant is like at what point? Well, actually, I actually pulled up a quote. This is how I go That is one of my favorites it's M Scott pack I don't know if you ever read the book the road less traveled. Yes Came out like, you know, whatever in the 80s, right? But he says life is difficult This is a great truth One of the greatest truths It is a great truth because once we truly see this truth we transcend it Once we truly know that life is difficult once we truly understand and accept it then life is no longer difficult Because once it is accepted the fact that life is difficult no longer matters I mean, that's kind of my mic drop Good night everybody Yeah, that's a really that's actually really good call. I don't remember that on the book. I'll send it to you It's a yeah, it's a good one and I think That's it's all of the mindfulness stuff And I know that you are big into meditation too, although we've never really had a conversation about Mindfulness meditation and all of that It's a for me. It's a focus skill like it's part of the ability to put your focus somewhere Oh, which is fine. It's different things for different people. That's how I use it I think that that's primarily how I use it and then also to add this sort of Non-judgmental element to the awareness which I think can be really important and when it comes to this kind of topic, right? Recognizing. Oh, yeah, I'm noticing that I'm feeling really anxious and I'm noticing that this is challenging Flexing some muscles that I'm not used to flexing Well, that's part of this though flexing muscles that I'm used to like expecting it to be hard I think is important moving one of the things that I find that Moved me past this is so hard and it was was the realization that oh, it's supposed to be I need it to be hard Like yeah, which is a shitty deal in plain English It's like it's a crappy deal But it's a deal we got and I needed it to be hard and so therefore I should just expect it to be hard and Yeah, I was able to get frustrated by how difficult it was But I stopped speaking that out loud to a certain extent and I just stopped leaning on that so hard I would acknowledge it and let myself be frustrated sometimes, but But it's going to be hard. I know it's gonna be hard and so Right, right and accepting that and allowing that to be present without it being to your point with the the Mindfulness meditation is a focus activity right like not letting it be the central focus of everything Because I think for many people at points that it's it's almost a mantra and It can again sort of switching that and into the we can do hard things and and I love I know you do a fair amount of work with Kimberly and like it's a beautiful day to do hard things and I'm so behind that and I think that what you're saying about it that being sort of the expectation that it's going to be hard and that's why I love that quote so much because an acceptance and commitment therapy which is big in my work because it comes from the the vantage point of of Course it's hard Right like the expectation that it shouldn't be hard is actually the problem Oh That's the mic drop that That's the part right there That is I could not agree with that more you're right and and I do understand why people expect that because none of us Wanted to be hard, but that's such a difficult thing to have to keep saying to people It's supposed to be hard. Yeah, or you're shooting at the wrong goal If you're trying to do this in an easy way or that you're trying to find a way for it to be easy It will get easier over time, but not right now. We got to start with the hard stuff Do it scared and it's hard One of the things that helped me too is I am a huge hockey fan. I have been my whole life. So I Skating being on the ramp on the ice and that sort of stuff when you if you play hockey or you skate whether it's indoors or out It's cold. You're here on the ice. It's cold So there's no sense complaining that you are cold when you are ice skating because if you go ice skating It will be cold. That's just part of the deal and it that was a thing that sort of helped me and like Hey, I if I'm gonna skate. I know I'm gonna be cold. There's no sense in me repeating. It's cold It's cold. It's cold. If it I'm gonna make that the most important thing in the room Then I'm missing the part where I'm playing hockey or I'm skating. So yeah, what a great metaphor. That's brilliant Yeah, brilliant. That's it. It's like, yeah, okay, and that's I think at that point That's again that sort of Do we want that to matter? Hey, yeah, it's cold Okay, what am I gonna do, right? What am I gonna do and here's this Amazing experience, right? I mean, I've never played hockey, but I've watched it and I can imagine it's a pretty cool experience to have I mean Honestly, in addition to the cold just the sort of chucking your body yet Having people chuck their bodies that you I mean a large person may crush me against the wall like yes That's hard to there's lots of lots of challenging things involved Yeah, we're ice skating with any sort of coordination. That's also an amazing skill, but but yeah that that element of Okay, this is it. What do I want to do while this is challenging and I Think one of the beautiful things about recovery is the element of empowerment, which people don't necessarily And we hear all the time about how hard ERP is which it is the flip side of that coin is that doing ERP or Facing our fears generally feel so empowering and and and that oh, yeah like and and So you walk out the other side feeling more capable then you you ever thought you were and Yeah, yeah, that's the willingness though to learn the lesson of the difficulty So I know that's one of the things that sometimes I see people get stuck on like it's yes, it's difficult and yes, it's scary But reality is showing you at the end of that session the end of that exposure Whatever it may look like that you did it like nothing bad happened You're the thought didn't come true or the fear of your symptom been come true Whatever it happens to be you did it you went through it and as opposed to telling that story in retrospect that it was so hard It was so hard or so hard. Yeah was but nothing happened And I did it when you are willing to accept the lesson that reality hands you which is I did it and nothing bad happened It is superhero level like are like yeah, yeah that that that's rush of like Bring it. Yeah, bring it on and and that's where recovery comes from is the freedom to feel anything not from the Reduction of the hard things but in the sort of strengthening in the face of hard things. You're on fire today. Oh Freedom to feel everything. That's another good one. We're just chock full of great quotes Well, you're on fire too. So look, we're just we're spitting fire I really wasn't we're spitting fire Fire and ice It's the combo that we won here. This is what you two for one today people Good. So let me ask silly question Yeah, now you're working clearly without, you know breaking confidentiality or any ethical boundaries Yeah, when you're working with a client and they hit that sticking point of it's just yeah But it's really hard or I'm really struggling and I think this is hard has multiple expressions This is hard. It feels so scary, but it feels so real I'm really struggling like those are different expressions of the same idea. This is really hard How do you control that person through that? That's something all the line like, okay, that's it. We're not doing that anymore now I think it depends on the person, but there are sometimes where I'm I'm kind of firm in session. I'm like, I think we got to take that that word out of session entirely We just I don't know that there's any benefit to us continually I see you I know that it's hard because I you know And I probably should have mentioned this before I you know this but I'm in recovery as well as you know supporting people through recovery and my my practice as a therapist But yes, it's hard and also at late like we've been saying I think At a certain stage with clients if they're getting stuck in that then I'm going to encourage us to maybe Take a step back and say You know If that thought comes in great, that's fine. You can accept it. You can acknowledge it, but perhaps we don't necessarily Need to keep going back to that because it's almost it's like an escape route. It's like But it's so hard, right like that or it's too much or I can't do it and Not only does it interfere with The ability to show up and do it But it's this message that you're continually sending to yourself when you're sort of engaging with those thoughts That you're not capable, right And I'm not willing personally and I I've said this to more more than one of my clients I'm not I'm not willing to stand by and Allow somebody to speak Poorly of themselves or allowing not acknowledging their own capacity Because they've probably been doing that for their entire life to some greater or lesser extent I know again from my own personal experience that that was certainly the case for me until somebody was like whoa, that's just a thought like you don't you don't have to take that seriously and You know, then I practiced a lot of meditation and mindfulness to try and get some space from my thoughts And then I was like, oh, they're right. They are their thoughts and I don't I don't have to go down the rabbit hole with any of them Yeah That's space between the thought and the action is always so important too sometimes I will try and tell people to like okay when you're when you're overwhelmed by with the desire and almost compulsion to talk about how hard and scary and difficult it is just give it 90 seconds like literally 90s like time it on your end See if you can just hold that for 90 seconds And don't indulge that and see and sometimes that's really like, oh, I'm not supposed to bottle up my feelings No, no, no, no not saying that at all But I find it particularly frustrating too when there's the this is too hard. This is too scary So I won't do it. That's one thing and now you have to cheer for the person No, no, you can do it. I know you can do you got to give it a try But the person who is doing it and still get stuck on but it's really hard But but you did it but you look you did it you actually yeah Yeah, that's a tough one I love though that you're sort of differentiating between people who are getting stuck and and not necessarily moving forward with the work and how that Offers an opportunity for becoming a cheerleader and and reminding them of their capacity versus on the other side Well, wait a second and you're doing it, right? What I hear a lot is that it's hard and my anxiety isn't going away which Of course is it's so funny. It's like When people come to see me and I imagine when people get in contact with you the first thing that they're about is like How do I get rid of my anxiety? It's like Oh, I have so I have such bad news. I'm so sorry Yeah, I hate to lead with the bad loot news, but yeah um So So yeah, but I love that that you're Sort of putting it into these sort of two camps or categories of like in the aftermath Acknowledging that you are doing it and that you're able to be with the anxiety because that's the win Yeah, I think that's actually maybe three stages, you know that first stage is it's too hard and I won't do it I'm stuck. I can't get started the second stage is I'm doing it But I'm still going to talk about how hard it is You're not and then you have to as you progress you finally start to allow reality to show you I don't even you don't have to believe it like well I wish I could believe it Well, you don't have to believe it like reality is telling you and then the third stage is the one that you just talked about Which I missed which you're right. I'm doing it. Yes. I see that I'm doing it, but my anxiety isn't going away That's like stage three. Yeah, that's when you start to learn like oh wait a minute Okay, now I just have to wait and be persistent and practice this and hopefully go away It's I think it's it's sort of a natural progression. That's what everybody goes through. Yeah, that's so true I also liked what you said about the 90 seconds. Um, are you familiar with jill bolty taylor at all? I am not so She is a neuroanatomist and out of I want to say yale So knows far more about the brain than I do She actually wrote a book and has a TED talk called my stroke of insight And she had a stroke and as a neuroanatomist Yeah She watched herself Have the experience and understanding like all of the component pieces of it Super fascinating and interesting book In the book she talks about the fact that from start to finish Emotions last for 90 seconds Which I think is really interesting, right? Yeah, it's um Yeah, yeah And she talks about basically like the chemical release It from start to finish it's 90 seconds. Of course every time that you reignite that chemical release. It's another 90 seconds but I've always found that to be really helpful too and in the recognition of The Emotional experience that you're having right now is going to shift if you allow it to if you allow it to Just be present if you accept it if you don't feed it with a bunch of thinking which Unfortunately, we we do most of this automatically, right? It's really hard to not do that Yeah That's where the sensation in the mindfulness practice comes in in many ways Totally absolutely the ability to say like oh, I'm thinking and then Dropping it and coming back to the present that is That's hard and this is why you're my people Yeah, I can't tell you the number of times a day. I write that in a comment somewhere Let me rephrase. Oh, I'm thinking Again, I mean it's funny because I meditate daily not for very long, but I do meditate daily and When I talk to clients, they're like, well, I'm still thinking I'm like, yeah, guess what I've been meditating for years And and I get lost in thought relatively quickly Because what minds do I I don't know why song lyrics. I will find the same thing. I've been at this for years It's you know six minutes into a ten minute meditation. It's like why am I why am I thinking about the Barry Manilow song of all things? Thank you. There's no rhyme to that. I haven't heard Barry Manilow in years and years and years But it's in my head Mandy. Why is Mandy am I I was just gonna say was it Mandy? That's no reason We are thinking machines. It's what we do. It is what we do It's it's what this thing specializes in just you don't want to be at the whim of the brain thing because it's Limited it's very limited very very limited. All right. So we're about 20 minutes into it That's probably a decent size a decent length here a lot of good stuff here But in the end that the I think the lesson hopefully people can take away is Yes, it is hard. Yes, it is scary. Yes, it is difficult. It is all those things always acknowledge because if you're going to try to pretend It's not that super frustrating it is Totally and when you struggle knowing that it's hard and expecting it to be hard Excuse me helps you to be nicer to yourself about that. I'm doing a hard thing. Let me acknowledge that Yeah, then we got to move past it. So you take it from there. What happens next? Yeah, well, are you mean me or are you mean whoever's listening? What would you tell them? So I'm going to tell them. Yes, it's really hard and yes, it's really hard But where's the line that you draw that you cannot keep leaning on this as hard, right? And that's and the I think The thing too is that a bit especially with the the piece about what we were talking about about the the feelings um still being there and not going away and that the sort of that third stage that it it's It's about recognizing too that feelings are constantly shifting if we don't latch on if we allow them to to do their thing and so it's not so much about Trying to change them. It's about learning to ride the waves and then waiting for the seas to calm and then riding the waves And do you know what I mean? So I think When we get out of the it's hard narrative and dialogue in our own minds then it it makes space for I'm just going to be with whatever is right and I'm going to do so non-judgmentally. I'm going to see like, okay Yeah, I'm with this thing. I'm you know, I'm calling it challenging right now and it's saying there's anxiety which is you know the fluttering of my heart and the the lump in my throat and the lifting in my belly and Okay, well, I'm just going to you know be with that until until the next one comes along And it's really that capacity to to be with that as long as it needs to be around Maybe that's sort of the the end game But yeah without without resorting to hitting the part of the pun the panic button or the eject button I'm feeling I'm thinking Get out get out totally we need to do more of these for sure I'm in always. I love talking with you always regular thing if we can manage that I would love that So on the screen I have a respective because what you might be listening on my instagram or my youtube or whatever Yeah, since since you did the intro I got to say if you're not following drew and you're like watching this on my instagram make it happen He's the business Not anxious dot truth. There's periods in there. Yes. Yeah the period anxious period truth Not period Hold the period That's it. Hold the period only two dots in there. But anyway, thank you lauren. I appreciate you. Thank you Likewise. Yeah, always fun. All right guys if you have comments or questions where you ever happen to be I guess put them there and we'll do the best we can to catch up with them. Indeed. All right. See you next time