 Welcome to Breeders Syndicate, the only cannabis show breaking down the myths and history in cannabis. I'm Matthew, seed maker for over a decade and a half and this is my journey into finding my truth in this wild world of cannabis. I invite you to join me and the Canaluminati by strapping into the passenger seat, but be warned it's not always pretty. With the invasion of corporate culture into cannabis it's getting even more muddy, which is why I've made it my mission to have a permanent record before all the history is lost and buried under a pile of cookies. We're the traditional market. The Syndicate is a collection of seed makers that want to push back against all the smoking mirrors. In doing so we will continue to ruffle the feathers of those who oppose and my personal mission has become much bigger than myself. Welcome to the cannabis underground. This is the Revolution. Welcome to Breeders Syndicate. I'm Matthew here with my co-host, Thousandfold. Today we will be talking about the Codex and Thousandfold. Would you like to give them an introduction on the Codex, a brief one on what it is and what it means? Yeah, sure. So I think this episode is almost an extension of the episode that we call the Name Game on the cannabis information space and yeah we are launching our own quote-unquote strained database that we're calling the Codex and surgically you know we're gonna talk about databases out there like Phylus, Leafle, Seedfinder, Strainly and how we got to the Codex idea ourselves and how we got to building that and implicitly like making a comparison between all these different weed databases and you know what we think is good and we think is bad about each of them and what they contributed to you know our sense of cannabis and cannabis history so far. Sounds good. Yeah so I don't know the Codex itself I think will save most of the details for the end yeah but yeah I think all we can say right now is that this is something that I built with the help of Quasian Anodyne from the Breeders Syndicate of course in consultation with Matt the whole time and yeah we built it earlier in the year. So yeah that's really exciting yeah and I don't know Matt I think we'll get back to it more fully later is anything you want to say at this point about the Codex? You know it's just one of those things that I felt always needed to be done you know like correctly and I've always had this goal in mind of how to do it correctly but never a way to do it correctly and I think that there's a big demand for it I know there are other things out there that people consider efficient only because maybe their their understanding of cannabis genetics is different than mine so the perspective might be different but yeah I mean that's about where I'll leave it for now and we'll jump into it and go deeper. Yeah and I think to kind of start the countdown so to speak we're actually gonna go through yet like I mentioned these these are quote-unquote major cannabis databases and the first one that we have discussed or sorry I should say Matt you know historically has mentioned a number of times everyone's favorite Phylos. Yes Phylos so this is a tough one because this is a major corporation I remember when I first spoke out about them I was concerned because no one had my back at the time it was it was it was a little big it is a little bit much you know one guy going against a mega corp at the time which as far as mega corps go they're not that mega but for cannabis at the time they were making a big splash and they were back and co-signed by many of the most respected like scientists and genetics geneticists and breeders in cannabis they all of them co-signed it so the promise of Phylos initially was that they could show variants and breeding data or you know trying to think of the best words for it but basically they could tell you how uniform it will or won't breed and they tried to say that they could tell you or like basic idea was to match you up with someone across the country who has equal but opposite genetic variants to you so you could then combine them and make this amazing F1 hybrid that was the initial promise and I think that even Phylos would agree that was that was their initial statement how they came out and that sounded great for me like being able to understand something you know take take the material and find out how it's going to breed without having to breed with it's pretty interesting you know there could be clones that are entered that I'm about to breed with and I can go look and say oh oh it breeds very narrow so maybe I should match it up with this supposed to use this polyhybrid you know what have you one one thing Matt here was it the first kind of public well publicly accessible project in cannabis that involved like I don't know if this is the right term is it like genomic mapping or some kind of genetic mapping I don't think so I think medicinal genomics was before them and there might have been one before however it wasn't the first attempt at this correct however it was I think the first big money attempted this and the first time where all these massive breeders co-assigned something and immediately went behind it guys like Rob Clark my friend Chimera and he spoke about this since you know lots of people co-signed it and we're all about it you know yeah did you talk about this with Chimera on one of the episodes I may have I am sure you would have because it's how we but it is right right okay so yeah I mean like I said I was very outspoken about it and when I finally started having interactions there because I you know I had a certain spidey sense going off because they were saying they could do also after they said this this genetic testing to see how variant it is they started saying they could do genetic testing to see relative data like seeing parental data seeing like S1s to mother data seeing you know cousins all kinds of stuff they were claiming that if they were in their database they could prove or disprove genetic relation and show how they're related which for any breeder what everyone had been dreaming of it is my dream to have this happen in Canada like absolute dream but usually when someone tells me that they are they can present me with my dream immediately I'm skeptical because that's just my instinct like why are you trying to sell me my dream this sounds almost this hasn't been done in cannabis that I know of to this extent and all these breeders are backing it can I ask you some questions so they did get back to me and into their credit they called me they're willing to take questions I asked the questions like could you tell an S1 from blah blah blah and they said yes we can for sure tell an S1 from its mother blah blah blah and they offered me some free testing kits now these were very expensive at the time so I was like well that's nice of them you know what I mean like that's nice of them they give me free testing kits maybe they aren't so bad you know but I had some more questions for them and I don't recall what they were off offhand I could look at my email and find them but I had more questions for them and I felt like their answer again was super dodgy so again I became kind of skeptical I'm more on the skeptical side because like now they're giving me gifts they're promising me the world with or my my dream at least they're giving me free gifts to so I can see this genetic relation and still no one's being skeptical anywhere about it slowly but surely they had someone pop out from their company that was I want to say VP of marketing I might be incorrect I might be misspeaking on that but allegedly this person was VP of marketing and it was confirmed later by philos and she had a lot to say about what they couldn't couldn't do she said that they have artificially and this is this is her saying this not me it's alleged that they had artificially shifted the galaxy which I don't know anything about I couldn't prove it but that was her claim and she said that you know like they showed preference to big spenders which was interesting and she you know she said that they don't do long read testing there which was the most interesting to me because if they didn't do long read testing it means that they're not getting full genetic read and later on after talking to someone else as having an explain which I didn't understand at the time they were having something called short read done and when you do short read you're trying to compare short read to short read but because of how the clips work they might not be clipped at the same spot so you'll never see that same genetic relation and the reason they were doing short read is because it was cheaper and philos allegedly have to be so careful was hiring out a lab to do the testing they were not an actual lab they were having other people do the testing so again it was it was trying to save money and it shortcut their data so hard that they weren't able to do what they were claiming allegedly now how we were able to test it was I was gonna just make sure that you get into it yeah allegedly someone sent in someone that I trust that it's a very good library and sent in some samples to philos of a parent plant and s1 of that plant you know and some other stuff and like hybrids of that mother plant that they made the s1's of just to see like how these were coming back and yeah they were coming back not related at all not even a little bit like the mother the two parent plants of one of the hybrids came back is not being relate and none of them were related to each other which we knew was incorrect but because we wanted to be thorough we assumed that we had somehow messed up and started from scratch just to be sure that we got the right cuts from the right mom sent them in labeled correctly so always operating on the assumption that we were incorrect you know and we did this I think three times total where we went back and forth with them they're like no our science is perfect blah blah blah these are obviously not related you must have made a mistake and was it okay well we're gonna go ahead and do this redo this again we're gonna make sure there's no mistakes and send it in second time same thing third time bam same thing and unfortunately a week later Philo shut down their genetic testing after their third response because it was starting to get serious because if someone promises they can do something very loudly as they're marketing as I understand it they need to then deliver on that science if the science cannot do what they're claiming it does and they take money for this service I think that puts them in a really awkward position even a few years later like because they're still operating as the same company so it's always interested me but the problem is no one's really able to or speak really speaks out about this because again everybody seems like they are scared of confronting this corporation but it doesn't do any good to be quiet about it because so many people are basing their conclusions on this allegedly bunk genetic data and the thing that was real weird was that some stuff lined up pretty well and that was cool but a lot of stuff didn't and the problem is with data like that when you have erroneous data you cannot use any of it because you cannot pick and choose what you think might work by bias and that's what would happen so you have to toss it all out I for me right like just thinking about the way that you you guys tested them right for me what's fuzzy is that from their point of view from like a risk management point of view they should have known that this was possible and that someone would do this surely so in I'm also kind of still bemused about how this unfolded because I'm like surely that's such a myopic strategy what they were doing if they knew what they were doing fully anyway I think yeah someone at some point would do this I think maybe like if I had a theory if my own theory I have no basis other than feelings for this theory so don't you know quote me allegedly all that jazz sarcastic speculation speculation all of it I would I would think the higher-ups maybe didn't understand the science and we're relying on the people doing the testing and stuff to tell them how it was gonna work and those people didn't understand fully understand the cannabis genome yeah just like all the agri- just like all the other agricultural people that come into cannabis thought they were gonna take over our industry with a bunch of PhDs and then all failed out and flunked out of cannabis and caused the cannabis collapse so you know like it it's it's not just them that assumed all cannabis people were stupid all PhDs that I know did that came into our field not all but like a good portion of them you know like enough to make it a good generalization to be pretty accurate to me yeah to me Philos out of this whole out of this list of databases we're gonna go through is the biggest bummer for sure you know the other ones are kind of like you know like they're pros and cons you know some of them like middling in some way but also they've done certain things that are quite cool this one is just like really really kind of heartbreaking because the promise was so incredible but the under delivery was so severe that like there's just no salvaging it I feel like I also want to say that you know we talked a little bit about you asked me a little bit about my personal journey into the information space yes on the name game episode and actually completely forgotten that these websites were really important for me too and the the philis galaxy when I first saw it I was just like oh my god that's the coolest thing ever and I couldn't believe it and come to find of course that I shouldn't have believed it as well yeah it was because what you could see I'll just say this you know the galaxy I don't know for people who haven't encountered it the galaxy is this visualization of supposed relationships between all these various plants in the database it's like a graph what you call a graph not not like a chart but like a network graph of nodes and links and why I did want to highlight this is because I did take some inspiration from that for our codecs even though you know I was still very much a work in progress there was something about that visual model that I wanted to capture and yeah it was just you know if philis actually delivered I think who knows what the downstream consequences would have been if they had actually done what they said they would do but yeah it was it was a place that I liked to going to for a while yeah it's just one of the other problems is that so many breeders like serious breeders have taken this data and I find myself doing it because just like everyone else even though I was skeptical I was digging through the galaxy because I was still so interested right like is the data still there like it could be real I was so interested in it because this is everything I want it answers all the potentially answered all the questions that I had about my passion you know what I mean so a lot of us made conclusions based on this data and spoke very matter of factly because the science was telling us this right and even though we currently understand now or at least from our perspective that it's not reliable I still find myself having to go back and be like oh wait that's not the parent that why do I still think that I know that that's not correct that it happens daily absolutely daily I'll be in conversations with other breeders and we'll be talking and we'll both know that this is bullshit and we'll still make like like well you know phyloids did say and then we'll catch ourselves be like oh and it really happens that's how that's how deeply we trusted the science and how much I as a man I consider myself a man of science how much I normally trust science right yeah when I when I found it I was like oh finally finally I found it kind of vibe yeah and I'll say something about the galaxy that I I was personally really interested in I think the claim was that you know we had that episode on baselines right the one of the claims was that the galaxy visualization would help you actually like identify what the poles the different the multiple poles in the gene pool were right so like northern lights over there there's like OG over here and there's train wreck all the way out there and again such a dream if it were real if you know if it actually corresponded with the real thing but yeah before one of the things that made me super skeptical too was as they started adding to phyloids they started adding these weird categories that meant nothing they had like blueberry is a category they had or no they had blueberry inside hemp hemp was a category og kush was a category haze was a cat like it was just weird shit that like this is a whole category and there were several other that were kind of weird and then you'd watch the drop into these categories and they never really I don't know came up with this idea that these felonies I know who it was who it was the same person who came up with the emerald cup categories yeah sweets and dreams bro sweets and during they got the same guy yeah that's it's just like who is quantifying this is og kush I'd really like to talk to them can we can we have this discussion who who made this decision and why is this the scientific conclusion this that blueberries hemp all the sudden you know like it was it was very confusing that was just there were so many things like that that constantly popped up with them certain relations they were showing that breeding can showed completely different to me like the fact that they they had Urkel not being related to cookies at all og kush not related to cookies and it was just like a tie a tie land race as og kush clone just by Rob Clark no less which I you know I I love Rob Clark that's that's one of my heroes of cannabis but it was all so confusing and I didn't understand what was going on with the data and but it was a lot of a lot of things that weren't quite conclusive contradicting each other I don't know that's that's the best way to put it yeah yeah I did want to just also point out here for everyone that um unfortunately you know in in the past episodes we've tried like sharing Matt's screen and going through the web pages and all that but you know unfortunately YouTube doesn't like that at all so we can't do that it would have been a great episode to do that on but sadly yeah it's kind of um if you want to if you feel like it pull these websites up as we're talking about them and have a look yourself it's kind of stifled the reviews too for future reviews and all kinds of stuff now so you will have to figure some stuff out but we will we will yeah anything else about Phyllis before we um just that it's it's again like I'd say the number two cannabis dirty secret other than the bait and switch like it's it's it's up there as being like the dirty secret a lot of us know about but like everybody's terrified to talk about for whatever reason because people get mad because so many people have basic conclusions on this blah blah blah wait they're a corporation some question from me is the website still there can people actually still go and see it I don't know okay I do you know they stopped after that a literal week and I don't know maybe it was no correlation at all I'm sure they're gonna say there was no correlation to it but a week after me and this other person that's taken very seriously in our community confronted them about the results um they said no longer doing genetic testing shutting down going into autoflowering blah blah blah see ya and that was it you know um yeah it was weird it was it was super weird and the timing was super interesting yeah I just looked at it the website is still there but like it's quite different now and yeah the the whole 3d galaxy thing is gone so they've yeah they've kind of like yeah got it up and that's weird right like think about all the money that went into that developing it why would they take that down ever why would they do that like really think about that if that's yeah I'll say this yeah I'll say this money wise yeah there's not a small amount of money like the people who did the web development for that that we're not a being cheap there no and the other thing is like you know like didn't people pay for this data like what the hell like if you they paid for it to be up there it's gone like that's interesting but I mean I guess they did tell everyone to to download your data getting rid of it and I figured I figured at that point oh they're getting rid of it because they don't want to see oh allegedly allegedly did you want to gesture towards I don't I don't think you mentioned this wasn't there also a controversy around how they were going to use it or like rumors about how they were going to use it yeah that's right um so that's what I like called the swerve with them was that like they kept acting like they were being inappropriately attacked by people and some people were like going public and saying hey they're going to get your genetic data and rebuild that clone from nothing they really thought that they could take like genetic data and like plug it into a I don't know tissue or a cell and regrow their clone from that genetic data which isn't even possible I don't know no I don't think so I don't think anybody with any scientific understanding was accusing them of this but they were just like you'd see them just raging back anytime they were on any kind of podcast talking about yeah we would never steal genetic data because we can't do that blah blah blah but like when I was going after them and I and having real questions for them and uh and talking about what they just were saying and doing that was contradicting just white on that but yeah we would never you know rebuild from that it's like nobody's saying that no I think nobody important nobody really serious to saying that but we are saying some other stuff why won't you address this and yeah I don't know like the people behind Phyllis were super nice and that sucks because like I could have had a nice friendship with some of them I imagine in another life you know had it not been something where something I'm so passionate about was so played with by what I considered maybe allegedly cultural vultures you know yeah if any of you by the way have had experiences with Phyllis definitely tell us about it in the comments comment below if you ever had your stuff tested by Phyllis and let us know what your feelings are do you think it was real do you do you trust their data and why um yeah I'm interested yeah yeah even or even if you're like me just like uh you know armchair whatever theorist uh you know tell us how you feel about you know what eventuated yeah I'm super interested to see the comments on this one super interesting yeah I mean otherwise we can move on to leafy if you're ready man yeah leafy and shit um I don't even remember when they popped up but like they were probably one of one of the biggest I think out of all these sites other than Phyllis which was like a mega corporation but as far as like advertising marketing money spent on stuff like that I'd say they were a much bigger website and probably generated a lot more revenue overall than Phyllis for other companies in themselves I could imagine um they were kind of like a strain database where they listed what they felt were popular strain names and they would give you blanket like generic data about like how much percent indica and how much percent sativa or if it was all indica or all sativa you know most most of the time it would just say indica sativa or hybrid you know and uh yeah it would tell you like oh this helps with your anxiety and pain blah blah blah we give it a score of 6.4 out of 9 you know what I mean like it was stuff like that and it was real goofy yeah yeah I don't know where they got the data like there's like I agreed with very little on the site ever and I remember uh there was a funny picture of AJ from um sour fam and he had a pillow that strangely had or I'm sorry leafy had sent him he had a pillow leafy had sent him that said uh sour diesel and had like the S and then it had I in the quarter for indica he's like sour you know like I just remember that really distinctly and kind of just snickering a little bit yeah um okay I do want to add a couple of things so I believe a lot of the information is crowdsourced so like not okay I think that the like effects section and the smell and flavor section uh what they do is like uh I think anyone can fill out like a survey and then they aggregate uh this crowdsourced information and present like the aggregated results like the top you know like the top scoring things uh from their reviews um on the one hand it's kind of an interesting concept because as we know these things are very subjective and so okay like uh being charitable I can see why one would think that's cool we'll just survey lots of people and the more people uh the more information we get and the better our information is which yeah sort of makes sense in a broad in a broad way real quick real quick let me interject this is also something that philos had done when they were talking about their legacy clones and it was one of my main questions that I was asking like how are you determining your legacy clones like how does that work and and they were crowdsourcing I mean as I understand it they were crowdsourcing and if they got a bunch of people entering the same cut as chem d for example that's legacy chem d that's the real one original because so many people had it must be real and we know that this is like a in cannabis this is a big no no because a lot of times the most past cut is the the fake one you know like it just the uncirculated one stays here and another one goes out the masses for $20 a clone at a local dispensary anyway wanted to add that part yeah yeah for sure and again like you know uh like I was saying broadly speaking from a high level it looks like a somewhat sound strategy for the subjective you know getting some subjective information in a more objective fashion sure but when you consider the idea that like the people who are writing reviews of quote-unquote and the likelihood of them actually having the same you know the actual same cut or the same flower sample is so low that ultimately you you don't really know what they're talking about like you have no idea whether they're actually all talking about the same thing or not yeah the other thing I would say about oh go ahead no no go ahead I was going to say that one of the major I think differentiating factors with leafly as well I think out of all of these it's the most mainstream one I think and it's more targeted at like end consumers I think yes people midway of the chain you know or whatever um yeah no growers really the other thing yeah yeah yeah I don't know many growers who like even the people who are brand new knew this that that leafly was silly like that just you know what I mean like if you're a grower you already know that that's incorrect just by happenstance I just thought that was really interesting yeah the the other thing that's worth pointing out as well is that they do have lineage information um and I'll tell you something funny I have a really really good memory of going there years ago now um and seeing that I'm I'm pretty sure and I'm pretty sure that their og kush was still following that like what is it lemon Thai Pakistani yes yes yeah but I did look at it last night and they had improved like some of the entries like I remember like they they had some fake stuff for chem dog as well that they'd made up and now it's all gone and they just say it's like dog butt unknown so they it looks like they've made some effort to clean some things up good for them good for them because have you had you've had some interactions with them have you um no they're the ones that I've had like zero interaction okay yeah but they're but you're corp corp um what else were they gonna say about these guys um I remember them being involved with the Seth Rogan goofy shit when he popped up with that allegedly house plant satire crap and uh was doing his chem dog the sativa chem dog his house plant sativa named chem dog I I I did want to pull on one thread which is something you mentioned in the name again but for so which is like the possible risks in saying that this quote unquote strain and again like you know they don't distinguish is this like oh no that could be wrong I think they do say whether it's a clone or like a line but the danger in them saying hey this strain is has these effects and it's like somehow really reducible to these and like it's easy to quantify them like this and you mentioned you know one of your questions in the name game episode was like can we really call these systems like proper formal medical systems yes and the problem with leafley is that they really make it look like that yeah that's dangerous bro to me that's dangerous I think it's like like in another world that's probably pretty like would be uh legal grounds to like it's scary and I don't think they want to be in that position I don't think they intend to be in that position I think they're trying to help but like they just don't understand what the thing that they are talking about they don't understand the thing that they are the professing to be the all-knowing narrators of being what they are and how they present themselves they don't even understand the basics of it if they can't if they're telling you how this is going to affect you you know the strain that you got at the collective name this is going to affect you this way like what the fuck that way yeah yeah yeah I mean on the one on on like a hold it put it on like a more positive note one thing that it does show me if nothing else is how many people still actually do care about this information yeah that's so low so that's a nice thing like people are some people are buying stuff and wanting to know more and that's cool even if you smoke is you know yeah um so it does it does gesture towards something I hope bitter uh but yeah yeah it is what it is it is I don't know if there's was there anything else about leafy that you want to know they're just so satire fucking goofy that like it's one of those ones where I I wish again like I wish shows like this would capture the interest of the end user but I'm not sure there will ever be a case where that many people are that interested in what they're smoking and why it could potentially be affecting them the way they are maybe you know like I just don't see it most people just are like I don't care what it is just put it in the bowl give it to me you know I think that's typically how it goes I think hmm how'd I put it I think there will be some percentage of the population that at least wants some differentiating like information you know to be able to at least help make the decision I I like to hope that there's still like a oops that there's still like a significant number of people who do care to a degree yeah I hope so but I just you know actually I take you know what I will say I've been very surprised with the past year just within the past year how many people have showed up and seemed to deeply deeply care about that and that's been surprising because I've never really seen it be more than 20 in my life at a time and it's you know even with the forums and stuff there are people that like acted like they were super serious about it but like when you would get into serious discussions with them about why something is or isn't like in the serious strange discussions if you went against anything that they believed you like hell no bro fuck you you know what I mean so nobody was really I don't know it was always a really small group of people that were trying to like destroy their own bias to confront their own biases I think I could frame that in a way okay I think how I see that is that people will make some minimal effort to find out something yeah with the information is good or not it's probably beyond their effort and if you tell them that it's not good information a lot of people just don't want to expend any more energy they just want to have just want to like cozy up with the idea that they originally had that they were happy with and they don't yeah you should like ruin their fun yeah it's accurate okay well if there's nothing else on leafy we can move on to one that you know I still feel quite sentimental about which is seedfinder.eu yeah what do you want me to start with them uh maybe just a general like a very broad description of like what kind of information you can find there um so seedfinder is one of the more I think serious attempts at trying to capture genetic data presented from the breeder side as more of a database like it's more of a database for seed buyers and breeders people who are deeply interested in seeds yeah and when it started that's mainly what it was it wasn't a big advertisement it wasn't a big money maker and um yeah it's cool oh that's actually sorry that that's maybe something we should make a bit more explicit about leafy as well one of the driving incentives is definitely like cross marketing yes that's a big big big thing sure yeah so next to you you're uh on your like flower you know your plant strain entry they're gonna be like I imagine like dispensaries where you can get this yes you know blah blah breed seed companies where you can get this yeah so seedfinder yeah like Matt was saying seemed mostly to be about lineage um they do have like a a lot of them do have these like quite long form descriptions which are pretty cool you know accuracy aside they do have little sections on effects as well I believe but it doesn't seem like it's much of the focus yeah like Matt was saying seems to mostly be about lineage and then some maybe some growing some reading information I kind of remember for a while they were integrating like forum data and pictures and stuff like that so it was really helpful for a while um as far as like yeah the best you could get and and for a long time I mean it's still the best you can get you know like it's one of the best for for doing it um regardless of accuracy what they put together was special for sure yeah um and just to make the point as well I think it was also partly crowdsourced or semi at least semi crowdsourced so um when it started they contacted me directly and they and they asked me if I would um add my strains to their site and I told them I'm sorry and they were such a small site I didn't know what was going on with them at the time frankly and I wasn't going to put a lot of time into someone else's website so I was trying to run my forum and ship you know and grow and dig guts and all that stuff so I wasn't really into that but they were kind enough to add a lot of my strains for me and import a lot of the um the pictures and descriptions and stuff like that so like I have a very very like soft spot spot my heart for them because they were very kind to do that they took the time to do that and um they did it pretty I mean fairly some of it is wrong but like you're gonna get a lot wrong when there's like 200 things to add so like I don't fault them for a lot of that stuff that they got wrong with mine and they were they're very kind to people yeah it definitely struck me as like a fairly or you know relatively earnest project um and I think there's still a real charm about going to it because it looks so like 90s I don't know it looks like it definitely looks like it's from the forum era like there's no doubt yeah I don't know if it's like done out of Spain or something it has a lot of like Spanish and Central European um seed banks linked to it and like advertised all over it and yeah but I I don't know some of the some of these banks are kind of shifty too so it's kind of weird it's definitely a bit of a time capsule um I went onto it last night again as well and it looks exactly the same I don't expect it to change ever ever um but again I think I did also do another comparison like I did on leafy where I was like oh yeah I remember looking at this information here and it was quite wrong I couldn't even tell you what it was maybe it was like cookies or something maybe it was like gelato or just one of those yeah and I think that they had improved it as well so what's interesting is that somehow people are still running it and that's kind of cool yeah because these things quite a lot of work to maintain uh my last interaction with them was several years ago and I was reaching out to them because I had had a wild idea of doing a private genetic database for myself because I was going through their stuff and I was realizing oh my god this has gotten so crazy through what people have put in here that they've made that they've created what names they've attributed to themselves what clones they've claimed to use and it had gotten so crazy so I wanted to buy their software to use privately and like sign NDAs or whatever I needed to do to get them to sell it to me just to be able to use it for myself for myself and to show friends like hey here it is like and I'm the only one that can add to it but uh never got a response and I understand that because this is this might be their you know livelihood so why would they do that this is a very highly developed and program site so yeah that was that was the last time I tried to talk to them but um yeah props to them either way like I wasn't salty about it I if I were in their shoes I probably would have ignored it too to be honest yeah yeah yeah I I should say as well definitely um a lot of kudos to them um you know like any approach has trade-offs you know even ours will um and yeah for them you know they were able to get a lot of data a lot of it is probably quite good data um but I imagine you know the drawback of any kind of crowdsourcing endeavor is it's hard to say that everything's been you know vetted in the same way that everything's as reliable as everything else um exactly yeah it's just just one of the trade-offs really um it is a very cool when you do it that way literally people were pretending to have seed companies that never existed pretending to make seeds that were never made and made up a fake backstory that they could come back check you know years later yeah and start companies oh yeah I made this back then look at my entry on c5 like like shit you wouldn't even believe or even think to you you know but yeah that's the kind of stuff that comes from that yeah and and again I'm sure like they would have tried you know um but when when it's set up like that and when that is the strategy there's there's definitely a limit to how much you can go and vet like there's so much data on there there's just no way someone could go and come through all of it um and verify all of it so yeah there's no way yeah yeah um the other thing I'll point out that I liked uh from like a uh information representation standpoint um they did have quite a neat way of setting out lineage uh to a degree yeah no the visual presentation of it's great yeah it was great uh the only thing is that um um I think that their format did preclude like more complex families or like you know representing complex families well because it's like a uh it's like a tree structure um yes but some families are weirder than that how could they ever have imagined freaking uh what's it called wedding cake how could they ever imagine that like you if you go look at the genetics for this this plant it's like nine pages long of just like a tree of the cookies cross back to cookies to cookies to cookies to cookies to oh gee to cookies it's just it's too it's wild man some blue power in there yeah it is but yeah I definitely have like fond memories of spending you know many many an hour on the website um yeah yeah okay oh stop wait one second go click like somewhere and click subscribe and then they a little bell thing right there and then we're good good okay back to the show anything else you wanted to say about seed finder no just that it was you know it's it's what most people consider the best attempt so far yeah shout out yep respect respect um strangely so I'll say this Matt before you get into it like I didn't know much about this one because um it's more of a marketplace and and any kind of marketplace always has a serious bias towards North America so I was just like it's not really for me but I did go and look at it for the first time like really in any depth like last night but yeah before this I didn't really know what it was I'm interested to hear your take on it bro I didn't look too deep uh I was I was like okay they're trying to be like the eBay of cannabis like they do auctions right and like they do grow gear they do seeds they do clones um yeah so pretty pretty comprehensive in terms of like stuff that you can get but also kind of like the other websites really quite overwhelming like you get lots and lots and lots of brands um uh seems like almost anyone quote unquote can have stuff on there so maybe a little bit like okay how do I tell like who's legit and who's not yes in terms of the target market it's definitely not as mainstream as leafy uh but yeah so it's more about growers and breeders than like yeah consumers smokers whatever um oh they also sell pollen I noticed oh wow that's anyone yeah yeah yeah so that that's what I found just you know having a quick look at what what what can you tell us smat about it so like out of all these people I I have the most interaction with these dudes and it's I can't even say like there are things that I found that about their site from from the jump like they contacted me asked me if I'd sell on their site and I was like I don't know bro this is this kind of shady I don't know you have had a lot of bad experience by this point and uh they sent me a thing and it asked for my social security number and I was like guys like who are you and they then you know they told me who they were and more about them and I understood why what was going on and they're not bad dudes they're a couple of really nice programmer guys like this is their side job they do this as their hobby like it's not a big company at all it's just a couple of really nice programmers and they just they're from another country they didn't understand like the complexities of asking like black market growers for their social because what they were trying to do is make it easier for people to sign up for to receive credit card payments so that's what the social would be used for signing you up for a merchant account blah blah blah but yeah it also left them room for a lot of liability right so I talked to them about it and like they're like oh my god I hadn't thought about it from that angle the liability you know we're gonna try to figure out a work around for this and they actually went around trying to figure it out when phylos when I was battling phylos um and I said no one had my back it's not entirely true because after about six months Strainley had my back and they came out and you know made a big public announcement on their site about why this is incorrect what's going on here blah blah blah and you know I had a lot of admiration for that because it it's not easy to take stands in this in this community and at that time there was no at the pros and cons for standing up against a corporation there were no pros all cons and they did it anyways because it was the right thing to do so I just um you know I've run into problems where people pretend to have my seeds on there and are selling fake versions of my packs but like if I let them know they'll that person's gone they'll never sell on that site again you know what I mean so I can't like they're doing their at least due diligence and if people report it they they'll they'll handle it so I can't say anything bad about them in fact like I have nothing but kind warm feelings for those dudes for sure yeah and I mean I'll say this as well because it's a marketplace their primary motivator is not necessarily data in that you know in the same way as like seed finder or or leafly um direct they are just about facilitating you know transactions exactly so different yeah easily facilitate transactions between person to person for you know cannabis genetics or otherwise which makes a lot of sense because those things are difficult so it's necessary and that's the thing like despite my own stuff being like fake versions of my stuff being sold on there all the time because I think it's necessary and I think it's hella like piratey and like cool to do like I can't hate on it at all there's nothing I can negative I can say about things I'm like that's kind of punk rock either way you know like everybody's going to get fucked to some degree but like I think overall I think it's a neat experience and we need the ability to be to do person to person buying and realistically it's buyer beware and if you're not doing your research then that's on you you know like so in that sense I'm also very supportive of what they do yeah that was exactly what I was going to point out that the onus is less on them and on you know everyone else who's in the community to be vetting each other it's more of a peer peer review process we'll say exactly um like like like if you were like a decade on ebay you know you're not going to get very far um yeah so luckily they are way more responsive than ebay I'm sure they're so they're they've been so cool over the years so I yeah I'll shout out to them shout out so what's cool about what we're doing I think today I didn't really realize is um so it's a little bit of a history on like these different like uh online projects whether they're about like e-commerce or data or you know like this has been the recent you know 10 to 20 years of cannabis um in the internet age in the social media age and yeah it's because you know we we talk a lot about social media but we haven't talked about some of these websites before so I think now that we're getting into I'm like this is really cool um yeah and this is definitely stuff that I didn't really think about us discussing before so I'm glad we got yeah you know people people are probably used to hearing me and I talked to someone about this earlier like I'm often like dismissed because I'm called a hater in the industry you know because I don't people ask me questions about certain breeders and like it really does from a lot of perspectives from people who don't know like sound like I just hate everyone like I just am dismissive of everything and everyone but in reality I have a lot of like personal interaction with a lot of these people and it's nice to be able to see something nice about good people in the industry because I really unfortunately feel like it's so far in few between um as a as a gray area like that's what you get it draws a lot of people like that and you have to compete with them in the same marketplace and the same industry and the same passion in this case which is really really scary for a lot of people yeah and it's not like we have a perfect thing to show you know our codex well exactly of course really excited to talk about it and to launch and share it of course has serious limits so um no one you know no one's going to get this perfect at least not anytime soon from what I can tell we will we will um but like Matt was saying definitely worth shouting out old like cool cool effort and work and time that people have put into this one thing I wanted to say before phylos had their their visual galaxy seedfinder had their galaxy it was visual so I will say that part too it actually started nice yeah yeah yeah it's just phylos what phylos galaxy had all the like bells and whistles it was like it was 3d and like you could fly it's right yeah this was 3d in the same way but it was um I don't know where it went it was like a star map type thing uh on seedfinder but it's gone I think it's gone I'm not sure I don't want to say but I think I had a hard time finding it at least last time I looked for it I don't know if I ever saw it yeah it was there from the site start it was really nice and that's what I really wanted because it's a beautiful representation of it yeah I mean I'll say this uh maybe I don't know how necessary a little barb it is but you know one thing that can be said about seedfinder and strain Lee I think you can kind of feel the passion there a bit more like you can kind of tell that these people who like really care and like just trying to help and not saying that leafling phylos don't care at all don't want to help at all but like you can kind of see that there are the motivating factors with those two websites um and in the comments below I'd love to hear people's thoughts on all of these sites whether it's strain Lee your experiences exchanging stuff on there um you know leaf Lee I'm sure we're gonna have plenty of funny stories about leaf Lee and people's experiences there um yeah so please tell us um if nothing else don't strain me Matt I do want to give a couple of shout outs to one broadly the forums um of course like we've talked about the forums plenty um as far as uh they go as sources of information obviously very important but also obviously extremely noisy and um yeah and extremely incomplete extremely incomplete now as well as noisy yeah and you know forums there's no formalization of the data there aren't like formal models or maps or anything like that people talking so obviously still a very important site of uh exchange and information and irreducibly so um I wanted to point out one other place that I don't know many people know about um and it's called grow diaries and it sounds a bit naff but why I like it is that they don't do that thing where they say ah here is chem dog and then it's like anyone growing like any kind of thing that has vaguely got to do with chem or says it has to do with chem is under it what they do is clever they say we go by company and product and so you can specifically look at like say you've bought something you're looking at buying something you can actually go and look at that particular brand or seed company or breeder look at people who are actually growing those seeds and not like any kind of weird white label version and the other thing I like about how they present information is that they've structured they structure it so that like you can kind of choose which week of the grow you want to go and look at any time to me they've got an example of like good structured information about someone's grow historically um and I don't see it presented like that anywhere else um but they're good grows on there I can't say that like I think it's definitely a range um it's it's definitely like a anyone anyone can rock up and and just show uh there are a lot of veteran growers and breeders on there I'm wondering I don't know I don't know it well enough to be able to tell you that um um it it suffers from some of the same limits as the others like it also does that thing where it tries to aggregate like effect information or like they survey like the grower and is like okay what did you smell what what effects did you see but I think they don't they don't make as bold a claim like they don't what they don't do is they don't try to like abstract from everyone and say like this is the data they just say this is this person's data that's that person's data and see that to me that's fine as a grower yeah that's fine I mean I think it's like an honest way to present information you know whatever information that you have without overstating it at the same time you know it's still also definitely caters towards a more mainstream growing audience I was gonna say there's if you go on that site I I could almost bet without even going to it that like 99% of it's like DNA greenhouse benefit like just bam bam bam the top the top is that what is that what it is like yeah the most you know all those big brands will definitely have the most growers and the most diaries because they represent the biggest part of the marketplace has to correct yes so would be able to find uh riot seeds I bet I think you could but it may not be as many I tell you Humboldt CSI as well yeah um but again you know a point of difference here is that uh it's specific to the product it's specific to the breeder and you don't have to deal with the weird like um what what do they what do I call it like kind of conflation um of varying yeah seed like seed products from all kinds of different people yeah um was there anything else I wanted to say about these guys I think even though I didn't take that much from the website it did give me an idea that like there are different ways to model cannabis information um this is actually pretty cool in a structured way I'm looking at it yeah it's not about say it's kind of cool I think it's novel I don't think anyone else has done it like them and I thought that was cool no this is decent this is cool yeah so shout out to grow diaries and uh check them out um decent decent decent site I like I was like all about ready to knock I'm like ah you know what it's just probably going to be on nudes and like a like a roll it up blah blah blah it's not bad it's not I'm an idiot it's not bad at all no to me it's like an improved version of like a forum growth thread yeah you know like you know like everyone you know grow diaries are forums obviously very popular but again the problem is that like it's very hard for you to come through the data in any kind of structured way um whereas bro all the riot seeds stuff in here is club riot seeds whatever that is club riots so there's some seed company called club riot seeds that popped up within the last like year or two yeah and I thought that was like I was like all right I'm not kidding get mad about that's that's hilarious bro that's hilarious that they didn't even think to look up like that their name might conflict with another free or like that and they're and like look at these pictures I think I found one from you strawberry cream oh yeah that's mine that's not theirs but look look at their stuff bro it's like oh auto flower I'll just I'll link it in our chat you can have a look this might be the like one grow that's actually like one of your actual products um that's funny that I did cherry gmoz too I think it's up there but yeah that's it okay so maybe you have a couple of people growing your stuff yeah but it may be one of those and maybe one of those websites that's like we don't know it may be like more European growers or I don't actually know it does seem that way club riot seeds shout out club riot seeds shout out club riot seeds I can't even hate on them like they're probably they're probably from another country and don't have any clue who I am and I don't expect them to and don't care you know yeah yeah let's not assume that they they they knew there's any malice no not at all I doubt it I doubt it yeah um any you know anything else Matt while you're on there anything else no it just looks kind of decent though yeah you know there's an American auto flower cup coming up apparently here on the LA which is crazy I never heard of that Indokat chalice yeah there you go CSI CSI and his auto flower he's gonna jump into it wait you'll see he's probably gonna be there what we'll see we'll see we got projects um that's an interesting leak that I did not expect um oh wait what was the last I think I had something else okay yeah what I was gonna say is that if I were gonna set up like a like a grow database it'll be like this it'll be I would definitely take a cue from that you know I because I can already as a as a as a developer like I can already see the way they structured the data you could actually do lots and lots of cool stuff with how they've structured the data but anyway yeah oh shout out to Solray for being like one of the only dudes to grow my stuff on there like decent um yeah so shout out to someone from Repp and it's not it's not close right yeah and whoever else the other person I can't see fire in fire out yeah shout out to them too if nothing else we can move on to the codex finally let's do it our codex yeah so Matt I don't know do you remember how it got started um vaguely vaguely um you tell me what you remember I remember you asked me if there is anything I had ever like tried to want to build or something is that correct okay I'll give more context because I remember some other weird things about this yeah I think it was like right after Christmas like everyone was in that like weird like post-Christmas pre-nears like okay that's familiar at a loose end a bit maybe people just chillin yeah I think I think you were talking to Quasia about a database or like having thought about your own yeah that's right and I think so I started with you too and then I think I just was like I think Quasia had some like pretty sophisticated ideas I was like well if we wanted to do like a a simpler version of this I could see how we could do it and I could you know I couldn't prototype something pretty quickly yeah um and then it was pretty wild man you were just like yeah do it yeah yeah I mean like time yeah good did you even we didn't even know each other I don't think not not really no we didn't have a lot of interaction um right before that no and I wonder if you actually thought anything would come of it at the time um I didn't when someone had asked me that like well if I had any if I could have anything built what would it be and I was like well the one thing we all need is like a reliable genetic database and you know and I talked about the philosophy behind it and I I was kind of like offhand statement it was late at night like I didn't really think much of it and then like within two days there was serious development done to the point where I was like oh my god like I've got to start entering stuff because these guys have done so much work now I can't like I gotta do something like I'm gonna have to act this is for real and this is serious and like coming together this is amazing like this is some serious stuff we can make and and and I think help help at least be one resource for people to to go to they can hopefully people will feel as reliable enough you know for their data I can tell a bit more of this from my side as well so I know that in the US Christmas break isn't that long for people who are working right it's like only like a couple of weeks it's not like the biggest holiday on the planet for you guys but for us it's it's Christmas happens during summer and like this you can imagine that and then the country kind of almost shuts down for like two months it feels like from like December to like fib it feels like the country goes really quiet because people just go out to like people go to the beaches and stuff and chill oh wow that's kind of cool so for me it's always this kind of weird it's a nice time but it's kind of like a bit restless it's weirdly quiet and I think when the idea came about so obviously context I'm a web developer and when the idea came about like I was like I've actually done some stuff with similar kinds of data and representing similar kinds of data like relationships and you know kind of like network maps of relationships and I was like you know I think I could actually like do this pretty quick or at least have a prototype pretty quick yeah and so I think I just had the I got on the buzz I was I had a lot of energy and I was I had like a manic couple of weeks maybe like two to three weeks of just smashing it it was insane bro like day tonight I was smashing it it was like you'd be like you know is there anything else like you can think of and then there'd be something I'd pop up and I'd be like I because I have some context I was a web developer in in my past life here that's right I know how much a lot of this stuff costs and I know how much like knowledge it takes to do this stuff and the asks that I was asking weren't necessarily things that I could achieve easy but I know how much it would cost to have them implemented so like when he was asking like these things I was like I don't even feel comfortable saying you know but in and eventually you get it out of me and then it would be done and like you know a few hours it seems and it would be mind-blowing it was amazing it was because it was like really watching something come to life it wasn't a slow progression it was like boom and it's here and it's just like this is everything I ever wanted but now it's like oh it's so serious it was a fun period for me it was like I was on holiday and I got to talk to Matt who I'd never interacted with and I was like this is nuts that we're doing this but yeah it was a blast but it was you I also will say it was a lot of trust in you for me because you really didn't know me and I could have been the scumbag that everyone said just been like yeah thanks bro you know like thanks nice to know you you know but like I really appreciated all that trust too because I knew how much time and not just time but like that's a labor of love doing something like that and you're really passionate about cannabis as it shows so like this is an actual labor of love like it is for me so in the same time it wasn't just like building it for me it became our baby bro we had a baby together yeah I'm proud of that baby yes absolutely and maybe at this point we can state some of their aims because so I think like what we said before information like this is very sensitive it carries a lot of weight and one thing I I think in terms of strategy one thing I really didn't want to do was overstate or over represent anything yeah so I knew off the bat we weren't going to be doing like a fix we weren't going to be doing smells and flavors I was just like let's stick to our strengths here Matt has a lot of knowledge from his time his interactions with people his actual work and that's the information we want to present and we don't want to yeah over or understate that you know we know it's not like genetic or genomic mapping um and we're never going to do that uh conceivably so the next best thing was like presenting I don't know Matt how would you frame this like how would you frame the information that we have on there from your point of view the information we have on there the way I'd frame it is by talking about all the things I saw wrong with everything else and like the little steps in my brain I took to like try to to beat all that like I like the crowd sourcing first thing that I knew that had to happen was no more crowd sourcing but I also knew that's probably gonna piss a lot of people off and sound very elitist like that's the first thing that's gonna happen is people that are gonna feel excluded because their input wasn't taken into account or they're gonna think that that their input wasn't taken into account and realistically what my idea was from the beginning was to and I'm sure there's a lot of like perceived ideas about what's going to happen with it and like the intention behind it and agendas but realistically like my idea for it was to have essentially a place where people go look at the most important strains in cannabis the baselines that we talk about on here landraces get realistic like not just supposed data from people that may or may not be cannabis people over there that are trying to sell seeds and blah blah blah people who are over there that are researchers that are doing this stuff that that are they have good input are gonna be putting in like to the landrace part that's not my expertise so like but with with my one thing I do know is people because I've been in the scene so long so it's not necessarily just about my knowledge of strains it's about my knowledge of people who have the knowledge of those strains most importantly which is what the show is in a sense you know like me bringing those people together to talk and now this is aggregating that data yeah yeah so you could almost see it like Matt is facilitating curating this database and you know obviously a major difference between that and some of the other databases we mentioned is that these people weren't part of the industry conceivably and we're not there or present when a lot of this was going on and Matt Matt is one of those people so even though of course you know you have the obvious trade-off of it being Matt and perhaps like a smaller group of people one of the benefits you get so okay we'll say we'll say straight up that like we have no no ambitions or delusions about the perfect you know like how perfect the information is it's obviously going to be Matt's best account based on what he knows but what you do get is accountability transparency and like responsibility so you know this is a work in progress Matt's not even probably near done but we're going to launch it and Matt will conceivably be working on it eventually we might get more people to come and help so again the idea is that keeping it to a smaller group of people that we trust will at least introduce a more reliable process of you know and more reliable feedback loops so even though the information may not be perfect at any one time the hope is that we can just keep improving it and that the same people are going to be responsible for it yeah and again a lot of it's going to be different than what people perceive I'm not adding my own strains on there because I don't think my own strains are like the history or part of the history of cannabis I don't think I've done anything that's revolutionary per se so my my strains are not going to be on this site presenting them as like like this these are important kind of sneak them in the back door that's not what it's for it's not like built with an agenda like that I mean realistically what I wanted was something for me to go and resource and I don't need to resource and go on my strings because they're in my head I think that's a really good point by the way I think we were building what we wanted to consume ourselves yeah sure look an atom bird okay go ahead sorry that was so well timed we we just wanted to ultimately we wanted to build something that we ourselves would be interested in going and looking at you know we wanted to build the thing that we dreamed of and yeah and I wanted something I could share with my breeder friends like as a resource and that was mainly it like oh so sorry Matt one more thing that I wanted to just make sure was really clear to people is that we're not trying to have every single cut of hype or noteworthiness on there it's really about like what Matt was saying you can consider it like it's a whole of fame of sorts or like legacy strains or whatever it's more about that it's more about impact and history than it is about more plans yeah exactly and and and some of the ones with a lot of legend around them that we've tried to crack over the years like for example chem dog which you know is a very controversial strain and it was one of the ones that that took me some time and just thinking about it I figured out a few ways on how to approach it because it's not one that I could just approach from this is what we've seen in the plants from my perspective and other a few other breeders perspectives and this is what they are I didn't feel comfortable just doing that that's one where I feel like it needs to have all of the the history with it the forum posts from chem dog himself from pee bud from jj new york from everyone that's been involved all the way up the line every last one of their quote so everyone can make you know conclusions for themselves based on what these guys themselves said it helps put a lot into perspective when you have all that stuff and and it helps it also be a more valuable historical resource because it's not just me telling you what I think based on my experience because that can always be based on faith or agenda this is me presenting all of not just my own conclusions but here is all the data that goes with it here's their conclusions here's the story that started with it and here's where I ended up so you can you can totally disregard anything that I have to say you can absolutely believe that everything you're reading in the forum post and that's fine because they'll be up there for you to read and that's that's more of where I want to take it I mean chem dog was a perfect scenario strain or something like that where it was just like what is what is presenting what I think enough or do I need to present stuff that I may not necessarily even agree with all the time but I think it's important maybe to present that too as as complete as possible and not cherry pick too you yeah yeah and I think the important thing to point out here is that like to me you know as someone who works with with data a lot in my other life information and gathering knowledge it's a process yeah it's first and foremost a process so if this website can embody that process that's that's really all you know like I mean not not sorry not that's not all but like that's that's something that like can be relied upon regardless of the state of information yeah because you know if you can trust the process you know at least that the information will be getting validated improved that there's someone who's actually accountable for it like you can you know that Matt's name for better or worse is on those entries yeah yeah and because another thing that's worth saying as well even though that's Matt's name Matt is connected with a whole bunch of people who he talks to a lot about these things so implicitly those people are there their names are not necessarily there but you know Matt is definitely talking to CSI about this stuff for example yeah there's one of many people that yeah and and I'm talking to the people that I highly respect like it's not just my opinion on a lot of this stuff it's the people who I respect and you know like taking their work and putting it on there and like you know like I'm I'm reaching out some of them aren't on there because I'm waiting for you know CSI to give me back some freaking input because I don't want to put my my data up there because my frankly I like on certain strains maybe I don't even trust my own experience with them because maybe I got a specific clone from a dispensary or or even maybe I got it from a source that's good but maybe it's not as good as his source and maybe he had a different experience you know and I'd rather rather that be up there because I trust his input more than mine based on just obvious experience you know very obvious experience in that case and you know Matt like ultimately you also have the freedom to how would I put it you also have the freedom to like express where they're conflicting perspectives right like I think you probably have in some of those entries written like this is what I think but some other people think this and maybe it's it's a good time for me to actually briefly outline like what you can see on the entries yeah I do that so yeah so Matt I left a link to the chemdog one in the chat if you want to go and quickly look at it while I'm saying this but so the first thing you see you can see the parents at least what we know of the parents you can see the aliases i.e. the various names this cut or line has had yeah um you can see the children um and a really important thing that we added and uh we'll come back to this anecdote later yeah um a bit of us covering we added what we call information certainty yes and this is for Matt to be like hey this is wild speculation like don't you know take this with a huge grain you know a fistful of salt or on the other end of it no this is like pretty damn certain like I'm very confident in this yeah and so there's a little rating just to kind of indicate like yeah uh how certain Matt is then there's filial generation there is whether this is referring to a line or cut which I think is very important because often that's like uh very blurry yeah you know is this a line or is this an individual plant yeah um Matt we've also listed like some of the people we know have either are holding or historically have been known uh to have held uh these plants yeah we have a year of origin region of origin just uh broad description and then we have like I was saying before my you know early version of a phylus galaxy type thing yes I do want to say that like this is what I'm most proud of and most embarrassed of because uh you'll notice that you can kind of zoom in on the immediate family uh which works pretty well once you go to the extended family i.e like the whole tree it gets pretty crazy so I'm gonna be that's gonna be a work in progress kind of thing sure um and I will say this is like one of those things that it's it's been very hard for me as far as getting other people to be actual do the actual data entry is because when looking at a strain map and how you do it the logic behind it like if I just put BLD of unknown origin for example as a parent and then linked all these to the parent then we would have a bunch of unrelated things linked to sisters and brothers and that's really easy to do so then I realized everything needs its own variable but I have to be able to remember in my head those variables so I don't reuse those variables so yeah it's crazy okay so just to be clear Matt's talking about a situation we're like yeah some some some famous plant we know we can guess that the parent is like yeah some like uh NLD BLD and in the database that becomes its own entry that BLD or NLD whatever it is generic thing and what Matt's saying is that he has to be careful not to actually assume that that represents the same individual plant yes and uh he has to distinguish them so unknown I would just I'm just making it up off the top of my head but you know unknown BLD 135 unknown BLD 27 you know vagueness is death separate yeah you can't be vagueness even when they're placeholders even when they're placeholders we need to be really clear that they are separate placeholders and trying to teach people my syntax of like how I choose which variable in the name and it's been very hard very hard no one's picked it up yet so and I think it's actually been like kind of um some people are like oh I'm not even gonna try you know what I mean like because it is it's complicated the logic of it is complicated and you can't ever screw it up or the whole thing breaks in my opinion yeah yeah yeah so you know on on that note you know I should say we want as much feedback as we can get from people you know one thing that I haven't built yet that I really do want to build that Matt and I discussed last week there's actually a little like comments feature at the bottom so people can actually say what they think on the page in the current absence of that please obviously comment here hit me or Matt up on IG if you have anything to say about any of the entries absolutely last last couple of things that we have on the plant pages at the moment is a references section so the idea here is to link any other kind of content whether it's like a forum thread uh breed of syndicate episode anything anything we want to like try to flesh those those references out again work in progress we're not quite there yet um but slowly um I think every page will become like a nice little hub of different kinds of information and references I think so like those great pictures of Kim one through four which are very hard to find you know what I mean like so it's a quick reference on stuff like that um yeah photos sorry there are lots of photos well I mean where we have them yeah their photos um was there anything else we wanted to say about what we do have there Matt because I otherwise I wanted to move on to like things that I could see coming as well um no I think it's very very much what we just said so yeah I think we're good oh my god we haven't even said where it is I mean we'll put a link in the description but I'll say the website is codex.thebreederssindicate.com correct so codex.thebreederssindicate.com um it's not been properly indexed on google yet by imagine once we start sharing the links out and people more people share them um yeah yeah on to google soon I've been I've been a little hesitant to to put it out because for me like I wanted to be as complete as possible but it realistically with everything going on like the ability to constantly add to it's been taken away from time to time and yeah um I it's it's pretty good and we need to start somewhere you know what I mean so I think uh I think I'm good with that now so really what Matt's saying please be patient please be gentle if you can um with your feedback um this is still very early um and like Matt's saying and like I said you know keep implying you know keep saying it's a process and for any process like this the more feedback we can get the better it can be and yeah yeah so hopefully we'll have more feedback mechanisms available on the app itself soon but otherwise just reach out to us in whatever way you want comment on this video etc yeah yeah um man I'm really want to ramble this one I guess I've got a lot to say about it um that's good it's good I'll say one more thing uh and this sort of gestures towards future stuff I kind of had a possible idea that like other people could also use this for adding their own entries i.e if you're a breeder or you know a seed maker or whatever hobbyist and you want to like map you know some for some family of relationships I thought about opening it up the problem is that that in itself introduces a whole bunch of new possible problems like should those entries go into the main like Hall of Fame section how do we keep people's data like separate should it be private so I haven't really moved on it yet I I think we can guess that it would be popular and that it it would get some you know uptake but I would think yeah personally I think just thinking about it like it would be cool if people could have it as a separate and public thing that they could share if they wanted to um only because I was thinking back to a seed finder like if they would have had something like that like that would have been really cool you know um would have served the purpose but you know it didn't so you know I think that's not a bad idea I can kind of see like two different downstream like implementation implementations of this one is like we extend what we have which I I have tried a little bit like we have had people come on already and I've tried to be like okay maybe we can just let them add stuff to the page but it doesn't go into the Hall of Fame but there has other complications the other possibility is I basically make an alternative version of this that's just for the community where I rip obviously most of the code but I change it slightly but you know it's interesting to it yeah yeah the difficulty here I think for me is that the the problem with software is that once you have it up and you're saying that other people can join and add stuff maintenance cost and risk can kind of like really blow out oh yeah yeah you know like it's hard to know whether or not we have the the capacity to you know keep building and maintaining those things so God knows we'll see I would say that like what we've started with is already pretty ambitious so yeah we'll see how this all unfolds yeah and how the kind of interest that we might get um what else is there to say about it I don't know if there's much else you know what do you think just just that you know like we do want to be inclusive with it eventually but you know like to start out it has to be a certain way to establish the baselines and a lot of this is just simply me doing data entry from old catalogs that I have to some of it is stuff like me getting you know pictures above a kush collecting all the info on all the data from everybody I know that's reliable when it comes above a kush enter all that in you know each one you know as it relates to like blueberry go enter everything in every step of the way up so it's not incomplete so it never runs into a wall you know what I mean so there's a lot of little things like that um that I wanted to do to get it right and I've done a lot of that so um but yeah there's not it's not one big agenda it's just going to be a historical resource and you know when we first talked about it there's a lot of backlash from people some of it was some of it was legitimate and some it was just like what like it didn't make any sense to me um but I think there's a lot of perception on how people think it's going to be handled and how people think it might turn out and realistically I think a lot of people had a lot of perceptions about how breeder syndicate was going to turn out what the agenda was and we're totally wrong so I'm interested to see how this unfolds I would just say this to add a bit of uh add a bit of drama add a bit of spice and I won't obviously go into the details but I early on while I was developing it you know I had a little at the time a fairly small Instagram following and I decided to take a screenshot of one of the pages and just put it up and it wasn't because necessarily of the information on the page I just wanted to show what the website was looking like at that point you're proud yeah I was proud of it yeah but unfortunately uh some people got really offended by it and like it caused a bit of a yeah a scene um and I was just like oh my god it was my first taste I think of like the kinds of why considered to be quite petty drama yeah yeah they can arise in this uh world um and I expect that we will have we'll probably see more of that right oh with that in doubt that was just one picture oh one of them yeah you know what I mean like the whole site is that so that is also when we did add the information certainty rating to be like yeah you know and Matt actually that's a reminder you probably need to go through and add those to various entries yeah I can do that yeah I won't get that done um get that that us covering it should be easy yeah yeah so I just wanted to relay that little anecdote just to just so people have an idea of like some of the dramas that have occurred and probably will will occur once now that we're launching it oh sure yeah but yeah I invite it like you know like I don't I don't even invite drama that sucks like nobody wants to deal with that even my dumb ass doesn't that deals with it all day doesn't want to deal with it but I do invite criticism and I do invite people that have better knowledge than me to give me their input and that isn't to say that like just because you think your knowledge is better that I'm gonna agree but it does also doesn't mean that I'm gonna disagree so you'd be surprised even sometimes I'm surprised um so feel free to reach out comment below you know hit me up on Instagram and or discord yeah just to be clear I'm not trying to incite drama I'm saying that we would hope to see not as much drama but I'm expecting some yeah definitely yeah I'm not I'm not scared of it that's for sure yeah yeah um yeah I don't have anything else to say about it for now Matt I think I'm just excited for this to actually be visible and be accessible to people and so this is really just the first step you know yeah in the way and it'll help light a fire around me to keep keep raging on it so I'm kind of stoked see where it goes yeah Matt's gonna like have to add some filters to his inbox soon oh yeah oh yeah oh yeah all right yeah I know I think that's it um do you have anything else you want to add no again we'll we'll put the link in the description but it's codex.thebreedersindicate.com like I said give us feedback on any of the social media platforms YouTube whatever and again shout out to I didn't right here right here I'm going to put the link right under here because I know how to do that now there you go there you go and yeah sorry I'd one thing in in talking about the process that I didn't get to say is that um thank you so much to Anadine and Quasir like as a developer I can I'm not so good at like fine details especially when it comes to do with the aesthetic I'm just like I want the data stuff to be good you know all the functionality to be good so those two really really helped make it look um a lot better yeah polish it up uh yeah there were an immense kind of help to me when I was like driving on it I apologize to you I didn't give you guys a fucking chance to really get much else in there because I was just going so fast but yeah thank you so much for your support and like you work yeah you guys worked really well together it was insane to watch like how well you guys all like streamlined together like boom usually people are arguing or bickering for top spot but everybody was just like this is what I'm doing this is what I'm doing bam let's do it it was rad it was really cool yeah I think what I got to see there was like three fairly senior professionals like yeah working together and that was rad like I did not expect to get other people to help so yeah yeah it was amazing so yeah shout out to them thank you to them I guess that's uh you got anything else you want to get in no that that's it I'm just excited to see what happens once uh this episode goes live yeah me too very excited to see it very excited to see where it goes so yeah any uh anything else leave the comment below um with that said uh plugs with that yeah go check out breeder syndicate patreon um it's patreon.com forward slash breeder syndicate I'll put that link right here right now and uh yeah the link's in the description too go check out riotseeds.com for all the right seed spray and all of your right seeds needs there's a lot of other breeders there so go check it out um and I think that's it patreon discord that's where we hang out it's super fun and uh that links in the description as well all righty thank you everybody all right that's a wrap cheers you want to sit at the table with the syndicate check out our patreon and our link tree or description below our merch site is officially live we have all sorts of shirts hoodies and goodies to sort you out and shipping is super fast and most importantly the quality is top notch I've been saving old designs for years for this purpose so please check it out syndicategear.com we also have an underground syndicate discord where we get together and solve old strain history together daily it's an amazing community of learning away from IG and it's an amazing resource for old catalogs and knowledge we hope you join our union of breeders and growers come check it out oh stop wait one second go click like somewhere and click subscribe and then they a little bell thing right there and then we're good good okay back to the show