 And we're live today is the day is it oh May 25 today is a an extra meeting of the disability access advisory committee and Amherst we have one agenda item. That has to do with an application for a variance from the architectural access board, and we are not going to have a regularly scheduled meeting prior to that. So we decided to meet today to discuss that. So I should have a roll call. Kevin, I hear you, you're here. Right. Elise here. Marty. Yeah. And Myra, I'm here. So absent are Ruth Smith and Tory Dixon. And do we have a presenter. I do so. So I can read aloud the variance request. It's from leapfrog programs. They're requesting a variance through the Massachusetts architectural access board for variance to allow the use of existing storage building as an emergency shelter without installing a ramp or providing an accessible approach to the entrance board by section 25 of the Massachusetts architectural access board rules and regulations located at 89 North East street map 15 a parcel 29 associated to their nature after school program under 521 CMR 24. So we have Felix. Ken and Felix are going to make you a panelist. So you might need a press a button. Hi, can you hear me. Oh, great. Hello. Hi. Do you want to tell us a little bit about this it seems like it's a 501 C four. Is that what she just read. We, I'm sorry, 501 C three. We are. Let's see, we are leapfrog programs and we offer nature connection programming typically after school and day programs for K through 12 but also adult programs. And these are anything from having supervised fun outdoors to ecology and focusing on plants and and animals and learning about nature and doing restoration projects like planting pollinator patches and fruit trees and things like that. And our proceeds. Support our parent nonprofit which is help yourself it's a 501 C three based in Holyoke and we also plant public access fruit trees in community spaces for folks to harvest with a focus on public schools. And one of our nature programming spots is at Amethyst Brook where we've operated since 2011. And we have a weekly after school. Oh yeah, perfect. We have a weekly after school program that meets here it's at the conservation land it's through sort of ongoing agreements between the Board of Health and the Conservation Commission. And it's a small program, five to 10 kids. Once or more. We meet once a more week during the academic year. We meet at the trailhead that's the sort of red circle there. It's a long road it's 135. And we walk in the trails and we basically have fun in the woods for two hours. We might go quite far we might. Our main program area is that white like polygon thing. Sometimes we go on larger walks, or longer walks we work in the farms they're planting and maintaining berry bushes we do running around games we do hide and seek kind of things, building little forts, you know, K through 12. Actually, that program is K through a two hour so we blow off some steam after school in the woods basically. And we'd like to expand this program. In our frequency, as in meeting five days a week and doing that has had us complete or in the process of completing licensing from this, the Department of Early Childhood Education. And one of the requirements, reasonably so for any outdoor, or for any nature based licensed program be it a camp or a state licensed, you know, childhood program is having access to an emergency shelter. And we can't quite build one or install one on Amethyst Brook because of conservation and restrictions. And if I may invite you to look at the lower left of the like map. And this farm is a adjacent farm. It's 132 Pellum Road, the address for which the variance was submitted, and they made such a shelter for a forest kindergarten program that was not ours. It's another program that does a day program for pre K. And their shelter, which doubles as a storage shed for this program is a 10 by 12 foot shed it's 120 square feet. The purpose is, well, was for storage for this nursery nursery nursery school program and for their use as an emergency shelter, and we would now like to, and through a range with the farmer have gotten permission to use it as our shelter. What that would mean is, if there was an emergency that somehow whether we didn't foresee, you know, torrential something or hurricanes and we felt that the best thing was not getting parents to come pick up but to shelter in place. Then we walked from our sort of play area to the shelter and hunker down. And we checked whether really conservatively we cancel whenever the public schools cancel we cancel for heavy rain and thunderstorms and all sorts of stuff and many times a year you know we're cancelling the day of because of that. So, in all likelihood, and in the 11 years we've run this program, there's never really been a scenario in which we would need to escape weather conditions. That said, we need the shelter so here it is. Now, everything's great to use as a shelter the shelter qualifies. The Department of Early Childhood Education. Their only rule for the emergency shelters of a nature program is can everyone fit in it comfortably and 10 kids, which is big for our programs and it's our max most are five to eight. The two staff could totally fit in the same. But they also require that it, the building be to code you know so it's not some decrepit like hot. And we had a building inspector come in to say, Hey, is this up to code. And his assessment was it's structurally very sound, but there's one issue which is, it was not and we didn't build this we didn't contract to build this this was pre made. It was not the materials the wood for some of the wood used to build the floor is not whether resistant. Thus, the whole thing needs to be raised 18 inches up. That is to say, every part of the existing floor and subfloor needs to be at least 18 inches up so that will necessitate a rise in elevation of the like height of the entry of this shed to be something like 20 inches when you factor in the height of the depth of the floor and stuff. And so we had a structural engineer come we got a contractor we got, we got the building permit all this stuff we bought the materials, and now, oh and our, and we'd have stairs you know like three steps going up. And during all this because it's was involved in building something. We learned that hey this might be considered publicly, you know, for public use, and thus it might need to be accessible, and to make it accessible we either need a 20 foot ramp, or to make it at ground level, and making it at ground level is the easiest, theoretically, because we don't have to lift it but it would require re re doing the entire floor and like tearing it's the thing apart and rebuilding a weather retreated floor so that I can sit at ground level, which was quoted at over $10,000. And the ramp could work, but would be also be costly but also this is the farms land and a 20 foot ramp just where the shed is like is kind of would get in the way of the paths and the tractor access and various like access it just isn't really. There isn't really a simple way to have it be accessible in that way and so we applied for the variance because you know we certainly wouldn't want anyone to not be able to get into the shed who like needed to get into the shed but the same time anyone, the only time anyone would be going in the shed is in an emergency and the only people who would even have the code to get in would be members of this or participants in this after school program. The only way to get there is almost half mile. The new facts are in the drop off the walking to the program area, figuring out it's an emergency walk into the emergency shelter. It's almost half a mile on trails that they're maintained by the town but they're not precisely like it's really accessible it's not like it's a boardwalk so that's all was an equation we were trying to figure out how, you know, what would be a real scenario in which a wheelchair individual was like needing to get into the shed. Something that would happen during our program and how can we, even if there was a wheelchair, like using person who joined the program which has never happened because no one ever signed up who had that but I'd be totally willing to try it. And so, if we can get them to the shed I feel like we can get them in the shed without a ramp so it's really do we do we need the ramp. That was our big head scratcher and we submitted to the AAB and they said, actually you also need to submit your local councils and here we are so that is the backstory. And I'm very happy to answer more questions. Does anyone have any questions. I do. Okay. Now your program is 501C3. Correct. So now a one of the requirements I believe is you have to provide services for all people with disabilities, including people in wheelchairs. I was glancing through your application. And I was very surprised in one paragraph I don't have it printed in front of me where it was said that this program the trails. The where this program takes place is not accessible. So there are no people in no participants using wheelchair. To me, I said, Whoa, how could that be this program that is provided for school children or public cannot be accessible for people with mobility impairments. So that is how did you get around doing this. And you also stated very clearly your application. Oh, um, I guess, by program I mean, I'm referring to this program that the anything that happens at Amethyst Brook by definition just isn't totally accessible just because of what how the town operates that conservation land. The programing is has a far greater reach than Amethyst Brook, we offer ecology tours and talks and walks in Northampton along the rail trail, which is fully paved we meet at Sylvia O'Consie and Hadley which has a boardwalk. We have mass Audubon sites we have stuff around across the whole state and many of those locations, especially like, you know closer to towns and closer to, or mass Audubon sites are fully fully fully accessible and so it's not like we designed our whole 501C3 to be inaccessible to places that we operate on just they are and, and that is just what they are and there are many many wilderness or nature education nonprofits of the exact same organizational structure that offer a range of activities and programming, some of which are like, you know, in a library and we might present about, you know, bears or something and some are on a hike and that's just what it is there's a whole range of things, but there isn't a requirement that a 501C3 make everything they offer be handicapped accessible that that's not true but when I was describing the program I didn't mean to mean our organization I mean just what's happening at Amethyst Brook. I think part I mean I think the trails could stand to be improved but that's, that's kind of for the town and that anyone who, you know, this isn't the only thing we offer and there are things that kids or young kids could do that, you know, were accessible but anything at Amethyst Brook just isn't. So, there's, there's nothing in it. There's no we're not required to make, we're not required to offer programming exclusively at accessible sites to obtain certain levels of licensure for child care programming from the state which we are in, you know, which we're are in pursuit of doing. That's my question. Do you have approval from the Department of Early Childhood, whatever it is education or early child I don't know if you're looking as it as an educational institution or as a daycare. I don't know how we are seeking a kind of ongoing license to operate a child care program from the mass, you know, EEC for school aged kids so that's K through 14 and, you know, up to up to 15 kids at a time. Well early early education actually in Massachusetts only goes through second grade. So, anything that's beyond that isn't considered early education. Well, sorry, the, the licensing body is called the Department of Early Childhood Education and they offer licensing up to middle school. But anyway, and they don't require. I understand that a lot of what you do is accessible. I guess the question is, have you been approved specifically to run a program under their auspices at this site. And get well, yes and no so the application process includes having this emergency shelter and they're different sort of like flavor, different sort of types of licenses that you can get and what we're applying for is called an outdoor or nature program sort of like. It's not really the same as like a ropes course or something like that but it's an expeditionary learning it's known to be totally outdoors. And there are many many many guidelines we still have to follow you know like, you know, background checks for staff and first aid and all that kind of stuff but there's also many things that don't apply to us just because it's such a short two hour program you know, we're not having kids like have to brush their teeth or take a nap or have a meal or where we store janitors because we don't have a building so there there's a lot of weight there's a lot of variances that they offer for. The situation is just like this and the program that were sort of inheriting this shelter from was licensed through the EC and they had inspected the shelter and and you know saw the whole stomping grounds and approved them, but only because they were meeting infrequently enough to get a a variance that they didn't need to improve this specific aspect about the shed. We're hoping to meet three to five days a week. And so everything else is the same except we therefore need the shed to be to code. And though it's fine for a shelter it's just not to code and to make it to code it needs to have this issue resolved with the floor either raised up or very at great cost make it weatherized. So they've already come just clarification of my question. Are you saying that the only impediment to your getting full approval for your program is the ramp on on this building. Are there other impediments when you've gone to a three or five day program that actually that you aren't considering here because it's not our purview. Oh, I mean there's all sorts of requirements but we're certainly able to meet them. They're mostly about record keeping and best practices. We haven't gotten the license because we can't submit everything until we have the shed, you know, completed and inspected and so on but and this is kind of a hang up to that but according to the phone calls we've had with the Hampshire County sort of EEC inspector and coordinator. You know, there's no reason why we couldn't get it. If we had everything, including this. So, if that makes sense. Yeah, that answers my question anybody else have any. Yes, I have continuous question to my first question. So if a student is first grade in say one of the Amherst public schools, and once very interested with us, but has a mobility impairment uses a wheelchair, or has some other, you know, maybe doesn't need a wheelchair but is you know needs additional assistance with mobility. So, what do you do you turn it down saying that the path, the trail is not accessible so you cannot join. What happens in that case, or do you provide another you carry your program to an accessible site. It's a great question. All I can say is, it hasn't happened yet in 10 years, and I'm guest and we have advertised at, you know, at and through the public schools, and my, and I've had that thought, and I think it's parents making the decision that um, sorry, it's parents making, you know, or having the idea like this just would be a challenge and if they said hey my kid is in a wheelchair and really wants to join. I would 100% say let's try it. The challenge that I could foresee is like there, it might not be like comfortable to go and grass or like off the trail or in wood chips in a wheelchair and it would probably take someone helping them do that and that would limit what that staff person was able to offer it would limit how far we could go as a group. I mean, those are just the impacts it would have I'm not saying they'd be turned away and I'd be totally down to try it but at the same time no one's been turned away because regarding, could we do an accessible program at a somewhere else 100% I mean, I think a school on at a public school campus would be the most obvious because they wouldn't even have to be get in the vehicle at the end of the day could just be right there. Getting approval for to operate a program at any site, be it a public school or a conservation land or a farm anywhere is a massive process and especially in this context so we're all for, you know, starting more of these after school programs, it's we've all we're also just limited with staff and we're also limited with enrollment, you know, we're sometimes challenged to even have kids come to this so there hasn't there just hasn't been that and it's not like I see adults who want to go. If an adult wanted to go out in the woods in a wheelchair. I've been going to Alvio Conti or somewhere, the rail trailer. A number of places that have a boardwalk like I think there's a new one like sweet Alice or something but or a paved path or something but I've been going to amethyst broke for 11 years doing this and I've never, I don't know I can't remember seeing adults on their own volition being here in a wheelchair so it's just a hard place to get around with mobility issues and and so I don't know how it would work, but at the same time I'm, you know, we don't have a policy that turns anyone away and and actually part of the EC guidelines are to to not turn people away so it's so it's more just a practical than like our actual policy. Marty Smith has raised her hand. Marty. Yeah, I look at this in two ways. So the variance we're being asked to deal with falls under 521 CMR, which does not talk about programs. It does not talk about program accessibility 521 CMR is a physical code. The ADA discusses program accessibility. And which means that not everything has to be made accessible as long as you have alternate programs that that are accessible. So that's, that's the ADA side of it. I'd like to talk about the building side of it. And I just did some quick costs. So you're going to spend $3,000 to lift this building up and raise the floor and make sure that it's not rotted. And a ramp to this facility would cost at least five to seven times as much as the building itself. And for that reason, I would recommend that we approve this variance. It's just simply because it doesn't make any sense to spend that kind of money on 120 square foot building. So when you think about it 120 square foot building can hold seven or 17 people standing I did the calculations. You put a wheelchair in there. You, you're using up a quarter of the space. Almost a complete quarter of it. So it, it just doesn't make sense from my perspective. And especially because you have a trail that's not accessible to begin with. There's no undue burden on the, the program, considering that the program does have accessible program elements in other locations. So that's just my take on it. Thank you. Elise, do you have a comment. No, just, she just raised a good point. I agree with everything. Any comment at this point, but it's interesting to hear all the different sides. Okay, I think Marty said exactly what I'm thinking, which is that the building isn't the issue, the inaccessibility of this whole project of this whole problem of this whole program in this site is the issue. And nailed it. And I'm, you know, Amethyst Brook is not an easy trail at all. You don't have to, you don't have to use a wheelchair to have it be difficult because there's a lot of roots. It is not a mean, it is not maintained well. He's absolutely right. Some of the bridges are sort of iffy. If you can't see very well, going over some of them is a little scary because there aren't sides on some of them and they're a little, they're a little spongy. Correct. I wouldn't go there. Um, so, and also there's dog crap all over the place. Um, she really did that was impeccable. Amazing. That is funny. Your dog definitely has quite the IQ at least. All right. So anyway, for me, the issue is that you have a program that's not accessible to a lot of people. But it is accessible to a lot of people. And some of us go to go to Sylvia Conti precisely because of that, of course, if you don't have a way to get to Sylvia Conti it's not so easy to use it. But that's a whole other issue. As for the variants, that's out. That's what we're being asked to talk about. I totally agree with Marty, that we should not ask you to spend that kind of money to put a ramp on a structure that probably won't be used that is on somebody's land that will interfere with his operation of his land, and that is going to serve a program that isn't accessible to anybody who has mobility issues. So what I feel bad about is that that's the site that you've chosen to have a program because people like people with mobility issues, which is most of the people on this committee are locked out by definition, not by you, not by choice, you're absolutely right, locked out by parent choice, because parents know that their kid doesn't have access to that place, and really couldn't do it easily. And I look at this a little bit, you know, it's a small program. And if the state is willing to say that it's okay for you to operate an inaccessible site. It's not for me to say that it isn't. And as it's all it is is for us to say whether this building needs a ramp, and I don't think it does. So I, Marty, do you want to make a motion. Yeah, I'll make a motion that we approve this variance. Okay. Do we have a second. I'll second it. Elise. I think we've had the discussion part but does anybody have anything to say that hasn't been said. All right, so let's vote. Elise. Yeah, okay. Yes, Marty. Yeah, sarin sarin. I am staying. I'm going to vote yes. But I do have problems with the whole notion. I have problems with the whole notion. It's sort of like just to put a something a feather, you know, for you to look at is, you know, you're running a small company, you don't have enough money to really hire a web designer. You have your own web thing. You did the best you could. We're sorry it's not accessible. You can't get our products find somebody else to read it to you. You can't get our products find somebody else because we really don't do all that much business. And if that was the way of the world for everything. Everyone on this committee, except people who don't have any impairment would be locked out of something. And so the whole notion of being locked out by my choice, not, you know, I'm going to choose not to participate in your program because I know Amethyst Brook is a very difficult place for me. I do not use a wheelchair. I can walk just fine. But, and I'm not going to make any comments about the DOG again maybe can she spell. Anyway, but I do think that it's, I do think I just want people to constantly think about the fact that there are a lot of people who are locked out of various things, and it's our job to lock as few out of as few things as possible. And this is not one of the things I would go to the mat to fight for. I think what you're doing is very small. It's not your fault it's not and it's not accessible. Well though there is that accessible trail and North Amherst have you tried to look into that. We, again, we've done, we do monthly programs for adults. It's more common that we have adults with accessibility issues than kids and those have come to our adult programs particularly at like Silvio Conti or other things to do something for them. I think children has the challenge of this of balancing how do you get them out in nature and have the amenities that are required such as these shelters so I'd be more than happy to look at other locations but if they're one of these like random sheds you know then we're still we're still in the same boat but my dream is you know if we can get this licensure we can start scaling it in ways that we've been limited to limited by before. And then we'll have more revenue and then it'll be easier to initiate more of them, particularly at particularly after school programs directly at a school and they're you know everything is reasonably accessible and there's like bathrooms and none of these things that have been sort of a nightmare to try to organize that him at this broke but that's sort of our next step and with this broke has its downsides but it also has this sort of magical quality of having the streams and the forest and the very farm and the trails and a little mountain and for kids who like do not have accessibility problems, it is like a totally amazing, you know, opportunity so that's just what we're trying to balance. Okay, who started to speak I don't know who that was somebody did. Now I just, you know, it's just interesting to hear all this and I, you know, I agree I, I'm, I don't use a wheelchair but I'm really blind and have a guide dog and I, I'm totally, you know, what you said was a good point. Myra about, you know, just, I'm agreeing with everything. All right, so we have approved your, not that we have a, we don't have the right to approve but we, we will not object to your, to your application. And I hope that you can prevail on the town to do something about Amethyst Brook to make it a little more accessible, because it actually, you know, would be a lot of work, but maybe somebody could get a grant to do that, so that your hope program could be accessible. And then if you came back, then we might have to make you put on the ramp, I don't know. But I, you know, I think it is a pretty cool place and it does have the cool stream and it, you know, a lot of people go there, a lot of, you know, it's a very nice place. Anyway, thank you for, for coming to us. And thanks for, you know, running a cool program even if it is only for a few kids. Um, because maybe you'll be able to run more for more kids and a wider variety of kids. Um, thank you so much. And, you know, it's a good, um, it was great to hear all your perspectives and it's something we can try to incorporate as we grow. I don't know what cloud we'll have with the town, but I do know they, they are, they're repairing their, the main bridge there is actually pretty high quality bridge without any steps or anything that got destroyed a few years ago. It's a trail of themselves, I guess that are the problem, but one step at a time. Yep. And it's not cheap. You know, they don't, they don't even fix the sidewalks. So just to say what the motion was, did we finish voting? Yeah, I think you finished voting. I think we did. Oh, it was three to zero. Elise and Marty in one obsession, which was Aaron, which was to not object to the variance request. And would you like to recommend to the town that they consider making all trails used by leap frog on the town conservation property accessible? Would somebody like to make that motion? Sounds like a good motion to me. Can I just pipe in? Yeah. I just want to say that it's been enormously challenging as it is to get approval from, from the town bodies, independent of the state licensure, the conservation commission, the Board of Health, the parks and rec, not that anyone was against what we're offering, but it's a lot of red tape and hoops to go through that's actually taken four years to negotiate even these privileges that we have. And I wouldn't want to be, I know that wouldn't be a request that we're like making of the town, but I just wouldn't want them to feel like we were having burdensome demands. Nor would I want to limit development of accessibility just because of where we were weren't. I think, you know, there should be a movement to make all the, or most conservation lands at least have some really good paths or loops that were boardwalk, but I wouldn't, I just wouldn't want them to get hung up on like, where are we going to go next that they're going to feel annoyed, we're going to annoy them for they didn't have this or that. Right, so maybe we should take the leapfrog out of the. Yeah, maybe it could be its own motion. Folks feel like, you know, the town should start, you know, making trails on public land accessible. Maybe that could be its own motion that's separate for leapfrog. Or at least we could talk about Amethyst that we would add it to the next agenda to talk about. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you know it doesn't have to go along with this Marty yeah. I just want to say any, any improvements will have to be accessible. That's required by law. So if the town were to do an improvement, any improvement they made would have to be accessible. I'm not sure that this really has that I mean, the cost to do this is so massive. Yeah, I just can't. I can't even because you're you're adjacent to a stream. Yep. So any, anything that's done adjacent to a stream is phenomenally expensive. So, I mean, I, I can't see the town even beginning to, to fund something like, because any path improvement they do has to be made accessible. This path is not adjacent to a roadway. And that's the only the only thing that that you don't have to make accessible is a path adjacent to a roadway which is called a sidewalk. So, I, I think it would be kind of wasted, frankly, to try and and make a motion because it's required. If the town's going to improve it. Thank you for that. You always know what to say. No, no, no, no, you are absolutely right. You're right, it is a huge expense. I mean, it's sort of why John M. Green at Smith College has not been repaired really yes and renovated in 6070 years, because they can't afford to do it. And it's, you know, I was recently there with a woman who went to Smith in the 60s, and she said, Oh, it's just like it was in the 60s and I'm said yeah because they can't afford to fix it. So, because they would have to make it accessible and they don't choose they're not choosing to spend their money that way. So, yeah, it's a big issue. But, you know, at least you've heard our conversation and hopefully you have a little bit more awareness of the issues of accessibility. And you know who who is left out. And just because kids don't apply it doesn't mean that they're not left out. It means that they've chosen to be left out because it wouldn't work for them. Because there are alternative options for them. You know that could be good. Maybe there are and maybe there aren't, but I think the program that you're doing is being used by a very small group of kids will hopefully it'll be used by more kids. And, you know, so thank you for doing it. It's, it's good to have kids, not in front of screens and out in the woods. Yes, and thank you for that. So thank you. And I don't think we have any other business today. Correct. Um, Maureen. From here. Is there sort of like a verdict that I could help forward to, I got afforded to the building inspector and back to the AAB, I believe. Yeah, so I'll type this up and put it on a memo. And then I will email the MAB and the building inspector and yourself. When is your hearing? I forget. You know, I think it's the 6th of June. Okay, so, um, and what today's day is 25th. Yeah, so I'll try to get that for you by early next week. Okay. And if you don't get it by maybe, oh, the 6th, is that next week? Sorry. It's Monday of the week after. Okay, so maybe if you don't hear back from me from by like June 1, if you wouldn't mind. Okay. I'll make a note of that right now. And our next DAC meeting is on Tuesday, June 14th. Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you for having excellent. We have a second. Take care, everyone. Hello, Pat. Bye, Pat. Bye. Next time.