 Okay guys, we're starting the fourth 30 session in the panel and you might find it worthwhile to move down a little bit as we're just passing a microphone back and forth amongst the speakers. Most of the people up in the front are speakers but there are some people from our organizer group and this is intended to be just a question and answer period for things that may have come up during the day that you want to follow up on or even think to ask earlier as well as questions that weren't addressed by speakers that you think you'd like to know an answer to and then people will respond as they see fit in the group that we have here. The one thing that I thought worth addressing as a sort of a startup question is essentially the question of adoption strategy or rather how are you as an individual or as a person looking after client sites or working in within an enterprise, how are you going to deal from the point of view of how is Gutenberg introduced to the people you work with or that you work for that presumably you're not simply going to have a 50 land on your site and then instantly people will start to use it. It doesn't actually practice work very well that way. So I opened the floor just to start off with in terms of how our speakers think that you should go about deciding how to address Gutenberg. Jump in, wait a period, have a process of gradual introduction, training and so on. So just if you want to do a 10 second intro, that's a good idea. Wordpress is the web operating system. Now at that time there were about 24, 25 percent. They're now at 31 percent of all websites, or all 10 million websites, stuff like that. So is this Gutenberg going to accelerate things? The interesting thing is a square space and Wix are growing at 100 percent rate whereas Wordpress is now currently growing at about 10 to 13 percent rate. So there's an interesting point of view, do you start thinking in terms of getting to Wordpress right away? I'm Brian Rosting. If you have questions about internet marketing, blogging, entrepreneurship and the internet, definitely send them away. Okay. Welcome to the glorious USB-C future everyone. You're not learning your local bylaws, you're learning an international set of rules. The difference in the country is one, it's still tough. Hello, my name is Anthony Grishel. I work at the VP engine and I have the privilege of working on open source for a little bit, for the majority of my time. And I was recently the release lead for 5.0 representing media. So if you have questions about media and 5.0, definitely the person to ask. So the question was how safely do you deploy 5.0? I'm going to quote or tell you what Wordpress VIP are doing. The first thing they have done is put the classic editor control on and turned off group burn by default. That is not bad advice. But then you can turn on selectively for the first time as you do, as you need to, as you come forward, and as you've got, you've tested and make sure it works right. So advice, if anyone wants to come to that. Just one thing. In a lot of the early presentations on the classic editor, they showed examples from the Gutenberg people in which you had a choice. You could either use Gutenberg or the classic editor. It was just a pull down. And yours truly, Elementor and Divi brushed in and added their little things to that. That has disappeared. You no longer have that choice, even though you may be running both Wordpress 5.0 and classic editor. I would like to have both as a choice. I'd like to be able to pull down and decide. At that point, when I'm creating that new file, sorry, a new poster page, I would like to be able to decide at that point from the pull down whether I want to use the classic editor or the Gutenberg editor. There's a plug-in called Ramp. Look that one up. That's the one you want to get in there, because that's the one built by Automatically ID to control the installed control. In my experience, being that I have been working at WPM, we have many, many customers and we've had many different unique scenarios. I've been tasked with generating a rollout client for Gutenberg. Currently, we don't have anything publicly to say as far as what we are going to absolutely do, but at the same time, Wordpress is not out yet. It's not bundled in yet. We're going to bundle them in our release candidate, but it's not the final version. We don't know exactly what it looks like yet. What we've been trying to do is anticipate what is going to happen later on. What we've found is there are three scenarios that users will find themselves after they have to perform an action upgrade to 5.0. One thing I want to say is please update to 5.0. Do not stay on 4.98. There's no reason to stay on 4.98 with the classic editor in existence. We've found three scenarios that they would end up in. One is either they need to shut off Gutenberg and turn on the classic editor. The other scenario is that Gutenberg works, so they can turn it on, and it does work. It doesn't break their site. The third scenario is that maybe they have some plug-in functionality that's keeping Gutenberg from working. Let's just pretend in this fantasy world that it's a WooCommerce extension that's not working. The product post-hype is available, and you can granularly control where Gutenberg is used, as we mentioned earlier, with Gutenberg ramp load. So there's the hybrid approach. There's the all-into-Gutenberg and the don't-use-Gutenberg scenario. Those are the only three rollout plans that I think are available. Either you don't adopt, you adopt, or you do a hybrid approach. So let's just keep that in mind, I guess. That's what I'm saying. Put the ramp plug in, and then you get... And the ramp also has some hidden features in it where you can actually with code define where it's being used. So it doesn't have to be just post-hyped. You can make new categories and things like that. So there's all kinds of ways that are available, and they built it in such a way that you can hook into it. I'm not saying that this would happen, but I wish that Gutenberg, Ramp, and Classic Editor would merge, because having those options is important. When you declare a post-hype in Function, do they add a new code to deploy Gutenberg or not? So when you view the edit screen in Gutenberg Ramp, what it does is a query of all the available post-hypes and gives you a list. When you're declaring a post-hype, can you there have a book? You could have a filter. You could add a filter to do it. Yeah, a filter, but not a deployment. What part of the list should post-hype? Yeah. I don't want to pull the mic for everything. Next question from the floor. Anybody? Anything burning? So basically, this tiny MCE, that's the current editor of the same WordPress today, this tiny MCE, which, by the way, is not a WordPress exclusive. It's an open source project. It's in lots of projects out there. Jim was one of them. Gutenberg is the new editor in WordPress 5.0, but there's other third-party plugin editors that still exist on the Weepo. So there's lots of choices. If you want to stick with tiny MCE, you can use something like Gutenberg Ramp or Ramp or Classic Ramp to still get tiny MCE. Yeah, I'm not interested in developer program and all that stuff. I'm interested in content on my blog. And therefore, when I do a full blog, I'm interested in kind of blog posts. I don't know what the communications are. I don't care about the developer stuff. My end-user point of view, when I'm getting out here and all the people doing all this stuff is, will I be able, in a year's time, or whatever, to simply continue to do that? Yes, and I will tell you that once you get comfortable with Gutenberg, you will not want to go back to tiny MCE. It's definitely. All my new stuff is in Gutenberg. Tiny MCE feels clunky now. So, even though I'm giving you advice to put Ramp on and be cautious, that's because I'm a developer and I want to make sure I'll test before I deploy, because I can't afford to break something. It's moving to Gutenberg and it is the future and it is better. Certainly, in my opinion, it is better than what we had before and it renders better HTML to the front end than what we had before. So it actually ends up better currently generated. So in Tiny MCE, the same editor that is in the classic editor right now, is also inside Gutenberg. There is a block called the classic block that is just there. It behaves the very same way as a classic editor. No image, no media. It is there. Why do you do that in real life? Yeah, I can talk. Sure. So, if you look in the Tiny MCE toolbar inside the classic block, there is an add media button. If you click on that, that opens the old flow of the add media button. So that is still available to you in Gutenberg in WordPress 5.0. So if you want to insert a thing like, let's say, a gallery and you want to respect those filters that come into the gallery, the post gallery filter, or let's say you want to create a playlist, you can create a classic block, click on the add media button, and continue with the flow as you've expected over the years. So in effect, your block becomes the whole content area. The block is just the content area. Just to reiterate on what you were saying is that it's the future and this is what is great for WordPress and everything. And I agree. And I have an interesting perspective because I was really involved in the Jumbo project when we had a faculty compatibility break and we had something called the legacy plugin. The legacy plugin allowed you to run legacy plugins and extensions. You know who used the legacy plugin? The hipster people that were with Jumbo before, the legacy before the new version came out. You know who never used the legacy plugin? The new users. Because why? Why were they using a template or a theme or a plugin that required some legacy stuff and those companies that didn't upgrade, they were kind of back in the wayside. And I mean I work for a plugin company. We're very aware and whatever helps WordPress get more adoption right, we're a fan of it. But I agree. Start with putting for a grant for the classic plugin. You don't have to be including for turned on 100% K to 1. You can be cautious but do take the time to learn. Next question. End user, just to follow up on the end user. I don't know how to download or install WordPress. What can I do to learn and start tinkering with Goomba before I make a file? There is a plugin in the repository called Goomba. Thank you. And that will get there. That's not quite what you're asking. So how do you... Before I go live, how do I tinker with it so I don't touch anything on my live site? I just want to learn that. Create a staging site in your host and you've got a good host. Who's here on the server now? Or plugins? I don't think there's one guy. So with somebody like WP Engine, with one click you can create what's called a staging website. What a staging website is is a copy of your website that you can tinker with that won't affect a live website. That's where you could essentially install Gutenberg and play with it without affecting your live site. What you'll have to do is speak to whoever your host and provider is and see if the staging site is possible. Otherwise, if he could just copy it to another domain. If you do that, just make sure that it is not indexable by Google. Otherwise, you'll run into lots of SEO issues. You can go to the task group at her thought point. How do you plan to... I don't have anyone to test it. You'll be able to publish stuff, I think. They want to be able to have the forward experience. Both of those are experience itself. Anthony pointed out in his lecture today that there's WordPress Release Candidate 2 available. Now WordPress Release Candidate 1 has been out for about a week. Is this out on the same site that Anthony? The next site is... Make.wordpress.food Make.word Press. Saya There's also host don't offer staging facilities. I think of a room that has a table out there. They don't have staging sites but you can have unlimited subdomains so you can just create a site with a subdomain and then throw it out when you're done. So there's three or four different ways to get into Gutenberg from demo sites which just give you an edit session to stitch as soon as you're finished but you can't break anything all the way to a copy of your existing site that you can do with it, do with it what you will and then delete. It just goes to slash Gutenberg. Yeah, that's a demo site. It's actually a Gutenberg editor. Right, that's what we're calling the demo sites. So you can play around with Gutenberg. I don't want to go to that site and play around with Gutenberg. I recall there were three different sites that offered the editing experience as a service and then it's deleted as soon as your session is over. Yes? It's in reference to Elementor and I guess how Gutenberg and Elementor are going to be in the future. Any thoughts on that? Who would like to pick that one up, Jack? I've been doing a series of tests of all the major page builders, the big five I call them. Diddy, Visual Composer, Themify and Elementor promise to be compatible with Gutenberg so that you can run inside Gutenberg, they're literally sections straight out of Elementor or Diddy if you're familiar with that. The problem is that I have not been able to successfully run in the case of Elementor anything other than a first pin of Elementor. After that you can add some more Gutenberg code and then add some more Elementor underneath that. However, two of the page builders do allow that. One is Themify and the other is Visual Composer. Both of those allow you to get in and so forth. Diddy has promised that and I can get some of the stuff to work but not all of the stuff and it starts to glitch out. That's the current status of the page builders within Wordpress and Gutenberg. The interesting thing is that Released Candidate 2 has come out and Gutenberg 4.5. I have found that things that didn't work in my testing just a week ago now do work. I'll be really interested in trying Released Candidate 2 on these page builders and see how they work at that point in time. Can I just add something? Sorry, just to be clear on one of the last questions. Just in case anybody here wants to test Gutenberg on a subdomain, just make sure that your Wordpress installation is set to no index. Because you're doubling up on your whole website and that could cause problems for you with Google and SDL. That's the password protected. Oh yeah, even better, great advice. Password protected and then Google won't get in at all. Back to the Elementor question. There is one plugin for Elementor called Elementor Blogs for Gutenberg. Yeah, that works. You can create sections in Elementor and use them with Gutenberg. It's a battle of both worlds kind of thing. It's very interesting. It works in the free version, very easy to use. Mike, did you have something? I'm not going to add too much, but Boldred also has a build area. I'm not going to get into statistics or whatever compared to that. We now have hundreds of thousands of websites. My thing is we've had blocks before they were pooled. So we have added generated blocks, hundreds of thousands of them. We are pro Gutenberg, we're pro of this. We haven't released our release yet. We hope to do that or can't be US. I'm not sure what we're after. But we understand the future. Just because a plugin might not be ready date one doesn't mean six months later. There's going to be a huge exodus of catch up here. I know this from the Jumo world. I've seen it multiple times from those backwards compatibility breaks. And this isn't even the backwards compatibility break with WordPress. In the next year or year from now, there's going to be a bunch of debt plugins that decided not to upgrade or those that decided to say this is the future of WordPress and really adopt it. So just because your favorite plugin date one might not have it, talk to the developers and know what their plan are. All the major page builders have stated Gutenberg support is coming or is big debt. But you know, it'll be okay. So if your plugin doesn't support it, hassle with the developer. Maybe throw them some bad money. That's why I like premium versions, because then you can yell at them more. We're just going to listen to you more likely. The situation with Beaver Builder is that they've taken a very conservative approach, I think, essentially waiting for the code to be released in 5.0. So they have a convert button that will take a Gutenberg layout and convert it so that you can now work out on Beaver Builder's editor. And then you can have a Beaver layout and convert that to Gutenberg. But you can't go back. So if you switch one way, you can't return back to the original without losing whatever the layout changes have been. One comment that Rabbi McCullough, who's one of the developers for Beaver Builder made, which I think is important, is that using Beaver modules as if or in place of Gutenberg blocks and then the reverse, take a Gutenberg block and use that in a Beaver layout is what they think is around the corner from their point of view. And I think that it's smart for them not to spend time and money developing against this moving target that Gutenberg has been. But by the same token, they don't have anything flashy and cool to show right now. But that's why I say they have a relatively conservative approach. I want to ask a question. Could we just pass the mic down? Because we've been hearing about all of these negative things and all of these like what happens if it breaks and all of these fear things. Let's maybe state that thing that we really like about Gutenberg and what we're looking forward to in the future. From my point of view, one of the interesting things about Gutenberg is that the short-term pain of adopting a new user interface for editing is definitely something that you would like to avoid but is inevitable in order for change in a platform to occur. But one of the tricky parts is that the real payoff, potentially for Gutenberg, is a little down the line. So the short-term payoff is the better editing experience in terms of any user, whether novice or experienced. But the longer-term payoff is just the notion of we're working with components that can be used and organized and programmatically found and displayed in very powerful ways that other content management systems have been developing but they are much more expensive or their enterprise class. And so this movement to a smaller unit of content that can therefore be associated with styles and metadata and so on is incredibly powerful but it will take some time, at least six to 18 months before we see any real-world examples of sophisticated uses of the capabilities beyond just simply sort of editing but rather more application-like pages, for example, because of the capabilities that Gutenberg offers but also the standardization it brings that makes it better to build content, sort of dynamic properties in ways that never have occurred to people with plugins or ACF and so on. So I'm going to take us back to my early years with WordPress development and I had a site that needed columns and I used Divi solely for columns and that was the wrong decision based on needing columns. I shouldn't have just downloaded an entire framework for that one feature but now we have those in Gutenberg and I wonder how many other new users to WordPress are not going to build themselves into one page builder for the rest of their life but maybe explore things that fit their individual needs and the features that they really want. So yeah, that's exciting. What I'm really excited about when it comes to Gutenberg is precisely what we started the day with with my own sharing video is that this will really shift our mindset from just simply content development to content design and I think the term design I think that is a very, very specific I think that with a very specific meaning almost a very sacred meaning. It's about building whatever you have to build out of specific needs and out of specific objectives and therefore what you've got in Gutenberg which is those blocks you would actually have the tools to be able to really create a page or a post that is definitely according to a certain sensibility. So for example, my favorite example is if you're going to be showing for instance directions to a certain location there's going to be a part of us in the audience that would say, oh just give them a list. Okay, this, but what about people who would say I don't really resonate with the list maybe a map is going to be a good idea. So that kind of sensibility to be able to discern for yourself even before you deploy the block that ability for you to decide in advance at a high level what that content block could be with respect to what the goals that you are really targeting for. Okay, pair that up with your user needs etc. Gutenberg has the ability to make that much more explicit in this Gutenberg universe. Great question. So as a designer, mostly as a US designer I tend to focus, I tend to focus mostly on the end problem. How long is it here guys? I wasn't going to say high five, I was going to say yes. So I tend to focus mostly on the end problem. So my whole approach is really agnostic. Workpress is my favorite CMS to use. What I'm asked is easy send a friend to use to the computer by medium, a squirt space, whatever, feeds the budget, the time, whatever. Well my point is I lose some points because I've been free-dodging from Workpress for a long time so I feel like I haven't contributed as much as I should and if you do, all of you will build. So review plugins, to make plugins, we'll do all this stuff. Thank you, thank you so much. So yeah my approach has always been what's the best website I can design and put out there and so my impressions on Gutenberg have not been as intense as the rest I guess. But I've tried it, I like it. I might talk on grade, basically focus on the way the browsers are getting much, much, much stronger and nicer and we design boxes, containers for the web and I sort of love this approach of blocks and the way Gutenberg is treating this is very flexible, very liquid, medium, that's the browser or whatever the future brings but yeah I'm very excited about it. I think, right I'm worried, I'm one of those that uses a million short codes and a few older projects so I'm a little nervous, I reward them. That's not me saying, but yeah. I'm really looking forward. I think this medium is moving so fast that we're here talking about Gutenberg right now, five years, maybe something, but I'm pretty sure it's all for the good. It's been an open source community and such a huge community on the web, right? We'll be all right. I say this cautionally because my excitement about Gutenberg is the same way I was excited to see CSS frameworks when they first started back when I was bootstrapped by Twitter. You know, and you had all these modules that had all their own themes and widgets and their own styles. Oh, we're going to have a CSS framework. It's going to tie it all together so you can focus on code and not have a theme for every different plugin and that didn't really happen. All these plugins have their own style but I'm excited about the depth of short codes. Because it doesn't, it's not good for the end user and in my opinion, short codes are a way to make WordPress not open source anymore. Don't get me wrong, but from a legal perspective, GPL it is. But if users try to migrate that content, I've seen it hundreds and thousands of times of people that have talked to us. Well, I got 50 short codes and two paragraphs of content. I'm excited about what walks can do and helping people focus on their content first and not how to do it. And it's really, really hard for someone to visualize a short code. It just, it really is. We have slight problems. Yeah, exactly. We've done studies with dozens and dozens of hosting companies and we found that 60% of people that install WordPress for the first time cancel within 30 days. That's, you know, we did a study over a dozen hosts or whatever. So a grain of salt. These are first time WordPress users. Because WordPress, out of the box, it has a learning curve. Is it better than other CMSs? Yes. Is it easier at which weekly in Squarespace than the SaaS? No. But there's reasons why they might, users might not want that. So whatever helps bring people into the WordPress fold, I'm excited. And we don't want that silly short code to work around from a developer standpoint. It's just more efficient. So, yeah. I think, if I think back to, you know, the beginnings of WordPress, the slogan was for a long time, democratizing publishing. And so, for me, it still is. I think anything that empowers content creators to be more self-sufficient and to be able to really express themselves on the page with no limitations, I'm excited about that. And I think Gutenberg adds so many tools to people that aren't intimidated by code and who don't know how to make their page look beautiful and who feel like they're falling behind. And now, all of a sudden, we're giving them these tools to help them bring their vision to the web. And I think that's beautiful. I think that's building on what the importance of WordPress was for a long time. And, you know, as a content creator, I'm also very excited about the time-saving capabilities of Gutenberg. I work with a team of content creators, and if we can build things that we can reuse, that's just going to help us a lot. A lot of developers say, you know, I reuse code all the time and I want to reuse words all the time, too, if I can build them into Gutenberg like that. So, I'm excited about that. So, for me, the big thing that's going to happen is that it's better than what we had before. A lot better. So, what you see in the editor is going to match what goes out of the front end phenomenally more closely. And I'm also pleased that we're actually properly getting better HTML rendering. The rendered code is better than what we've had before. So, I would like that you guys brought up short codes and also touched on the other builders, Wix, Squarespace. I actually got into a discussion with sorry, what was your name again? Ray Tepras? Miguel. I got into a discussion with Miguel right beforehand about comparing Wix, Squarespace, builders against WordPress. We actually are very fortunate with WordPress to have far more customization, far more performance, far more at our fingertips with WordPress. But like you said, out of the box there's this gap and Gutenberg does a really great job of closing that gap and that's just going to help everyone because more adoption and more we'll have in terms of options and features and investments. The one thing for me, I talked about it in my session was reusable locks. From an SEO perspective, from a marketing perspective, what I was talking about was I can spend less time on implementation and more time on strategy because when I use a reusable lock, I can push out changes across the website with one click and that's great. The more time you're spending on strategy and less time trying to make code changes, that's fantastic. So I think for me, the same principles of good software as I'm a developer, I'm not a developer person, but the same principle of good software, which is modularity and it's also applied to Gutenberg and if you can repeat whatever lock you have and in an easy way, you have the same thing, reusability, that's the other one. It's the same for Gutenberg for content, right? If you cannot apply the same thing in Gutenberg, brings that. Another one is that there is a very cool API inside Gutenberg that people can discuss in a lot, but it's inside Yoast, for example, if you try Yoast with Gutenberg there is an API called Annotations API that analyzes your content as you implement. And that's amazing. Having this in the old way, in the classic area, there would be impossible. For example, when you're writing your content, Yoast plugin will give you instant feedback. You don't even have to publish anything. You're going to see how those sentences are performing and stuff like that. All the nice stuff there can't understand. I will have the feedback right in front of me and Vishnu. That's great. People who are used to doing something in one particular way tend to resist change. Everybody hates change. A few years ago, Facebook changed their layout and how they deliver content. Everybody went crazy. But over time people adapt to it. I think that's what's going to happen. You have to get over this hump. You might be afraid of it. A couple of conferences like this people in the community will help you out. And I promise you on my two master's degrees in behavioral psychology eventually you'll be okay. You'll come through it. Probably less time than you thought. This is a WordPress conference. So I'm going to take a contrary point of view and say that Gutenberg is being oversold while page-builders are being undersold. An example is Weisywick which Paul just promised will be coming. It's here. It's now. And all five of the top-end page-builders do it and do it very well. Likewise, in terms of templating it's coming but it's there now within all of the five top-end page-builders. That means, for example I can capture a complete page and transmit it to another site and then make the changes to it that I want. And I can do that in Divi I can do that in Elementor I can do that in Drive Architects I can do it in all the major top-end builders. That's coming. It's coming but it's not here now. What's here now and what's being undersold is the capability of the various page-builders that are open to you in the marketplace. So take it with a grain of salt. Yes, this is a WordPress conference but no, there's some good stuff out there right now that will help you do the design, development and strategy of work that you want on your website and it's very, very good. Will it survive time? We'll see. Great. Next question. Yes, actually both of you guys put it behind the same time. Fill them back. So for web agencies working on private accounts of course it costs what's the logic for the reason to use Gutenberg as opposed to other page-builders like the gentleman mentioned Elementor which have much more elements and results for us. The reason to use Gutenberg is it's going to be the de facto standard. You've not got lock-in and if you do decide you want to move to a page-builder I'm fairly certain there will be an import process. Another thing too there and I'm not against page-builders I think they're really great but one thing you do have to keep in mind is that the page-builder you want to use for all of your clients going forward for I guess until you have to rebuild the content. The other thing to consider there is that WordPress is open source and it will always be open source and it will always be maintained by a community of people who are not financially I guess well I guess we're financially making money but it will be maintained by people who are trying to do better for the entire community. When you bet on a page-builder you have to then research the page-builder and know that they won't pull the rug from under you one day too because there is that I'm not saying any page-builders are doing this but if they were to premium their free model that's a scary thing as a content creator because then you now have to update all of your pages or bottom and I feel the glare so I do want to give you a microphone just to clarify all of the page-builders are open source sure we needed to find open source it's GPL, General Public License so from a legal perspective all the ones in the repo are GPLs I'm going to clarify my statement no, no, no, no you're absolutely right when I said do the research and do the research to make sure that it is open source and that they do not have closed source from you you want to make sure that's the case and in the current world we have right now that is the case I think the thing I was cautioning is if in the future they decide to change that and I guess they would have to go through a long process yes trust me, I do which is why we don't use word codes in ours but you know what I think is being undersold and this is going to make me in trouble is I think the core gets undersold in WordPress way more often CMSs look at the plugin repo they look at the app store of all these things I can add in and then you just add stuff because it's like you're a kid in a candy store the core does a lot more than people get to credit for but I always say look at the core first and then supplement it so it's a big advantage that Gutenberg's core rather than that that's the extension there are 1,000 people who work on Gutenberg they need a page builder who's got 1,000 tabs well I can name one Elementor they've got 25 plugins and I bet you that they have staffs equivalent to what's available to WordPress so there's obviously a discussion around different opinions right so from my perspective last week I was actually speaking at a different conference and it was with quite a few small businesses and they asked me it was an incubator with our small businesses and I was like I'm as good for SEO which builder would you recommend why and absolutely if you were in my session I showed you where I switched from a builder off to we use the justice framework quality code I mean that with the websites that we built there we're getting some websites loading in under a second out of these builders plus code quality is also consideration we've actually had better SEO performance using our custom code so for us that's a consideration so these businesses that I was meeting with they found the same so my answer to them wasn't well builders are awful you need to switch builders are fantastic it's the right solution at the right time for certain businesses to measure the problem and you say okay look our SEO position right now is X and we want to move up one position because that's a 150% increase on average well let's measure the problem okay it seems to be an on page SEO factor is this worthwhile do we have other web design changes that need to come in place yes okay the timing of this would line up let's make the investment and line up our ducks to get that additional advantage so measure the problem find the right solution and for many small businesses that's a builder that gets you a long way that saves you thousands of dollars heck even if it's Wix it takes you a long way now I would say go with WordPress but there are some businesses that can't even afford whatever you're going to spend at the bottom end so build it yourself that's okay it's the right solution at the right time do you want to put me briefly Jack as we I just want to take again the contrary point of view and tell you what is good about Gutenberg and here's when I'm going to go with Gutenberg on a client's site as soon as they get multi column rows to work properly I just saw Anthony do it and he's pretty damn close I use cadence and there's two really good plugins one's called cadence a block plugin and the other one is called caxon and they support multi column rows but in all three cases the Gutenberg original multi column rows cadence and caxon they all crap out at some point in time there's bugs and clutches I encourage you to try that rc2 you're going to find those bugs are a lot of them are fixed columns are actually much better now that's exactly why it shows column that's my thing I'm excited about I get that good experience and it's gotten much better we've got time for one last short question please nothing to do with page builders you're on the last few months I've been trying to contribute back to core and doing that through the Gutenberg plugin and github and now that that's merging into 5.0 as someone who's new there's almost like a disconnect like should I be checking github for issues should I be learning tracks where should I be spending my time so I've got the answer to that we are going to continue the development of Gutenberg in github and what's happening is they're actually pushing those out as amp packages and then core is building based on those packages so that's how we'll do it continuing forward so if you want to contribute today use the plugin as your basis to build and use github as your main source of Gutenberg related issues track is also going to keep as it is but you'll see a majority of Gutenberg based things in github and of course the slack channels and slack channels is another good place to look too so I encourage you to join in the weekly depth chats just to hang out are you on right now? if any of you want to join you can go to make.workpress.org and I think you just search for slack and it'll give you the first result as how you can get an invite to the slack channel and you can join the weekly depth chats at 2100 UTC every Wednesday so yeah look I'm just going to say we can capture this this entire conversation is please give Gutenberg a fair shot please give it a fair shot on a on a less risky location please I would never ever put Gutenberg on my US portfolio it's just too much risk but I put it on a place where I could safely test and really see for myself what it can do for me give it a fair shot and then whatever you find in your own please let the community know please let all of us know so that we can connect and learn from it and maybe we can problem solve for it and the way you can let us know is through github you just click on the new issue button and it pre-populates a little form you can fill out just one last sort of positive thing I have a whole bunch of production live sites with simple blogging simple sites running Gutenberg plugin no problem for old sites I totally get it's a problem we're battling perception right now too there are a lot of one-star reviews that happen in April so and a lot of one-star reviews that were based on one-star reviews that were read in April so it's like it's a well cut there okay last one Paul just a comment I just wanted to do that I want to award him for that if you all want to find out your content right at the post type and you've got to mix Gutenberg and non-Gutenberg site you need to be aware that content non-Gutenberg content does not have paragraph markers paragraph html in the code in the database so you have to pass it through autoit the Gutenberg content does have paragraph markers in it so if you pass it through autoit you'll get double paragraphs so you need to there is a it's Gutenberg it's Gutenberg function for a post type and you may need to dynamically test your content your post before it goes out because you could have in one post type content that is Gutenberg and is not Gutenberg it depends whether that particular page she's been updated so there is a little catcher that you will as developers if you're doing serious stuff you might need to know no so if you go and look in the database for Gutenberg there will be no paragraph markers just be line breaks and then there's a function there's a function called autoit in wordpress and the filter, the content filter uses that function and what it does is wherever there's a line space it will wrap that line with a paragraph marker with an HTML element paragraph you get a p-blog that's what the behavior is now but they made a design decision for portability and to reduce the amount of passing they have to do on outbound content for content to now include the paragraph marker for all HTML in the database so I got caught out a few months back because I wrote some layout because I was double wrapping some content because I loaded Gutenberg edited content and I passed it out for the function or autoit and it wrapped it yeah so you just loaded warning for the devs in any word so what you're saying is in the database now it's kind of whizzy way great so that does it for this particular panel the session and we'll move I guess imminently to our closing remarks in this room so if you wish to stay for that please do it'll be in this room and I thank all of the people that participated in the panel because I'm sure you value their comments so let's give them a round of applause